Transcription
And for the next year, I went through the whole vetting process and the affiliations process as an interim Calvary Chapel pastor, though I was doing all of the the the things that that were required of that. And that church had been in operation since 1979 when I took over in 2010. So, it it was a church that had been a Calvary Chapel that entire time. And so, I had to answer a whole litany of questions: uh, whether or not I supported Calvinism, whether or not I had, uh, any views on emer- emergent, uh, theology and and the emerging church, those kind of things. I had a whole bunch of those kind of questions, and I had to answer them in such a way that would make me acceptable to be a Calvary Chapel pastor.
So, again, I don't know Chuck Brodersen. I, I know him by by seeing him, but we've never spoken. But, I can tell you the the questions that I had to answer, um, if he had to answer those exact same questions today, they wouldn't consider him to be a Calvary Chapel pastor, and now he's been made the senior pastor at the flagship where it all began.
>> For the sake of the listeners, at least, we want to make sure and bring clarity that we are not the ones trying to bring division. Uh, I know that that's often the accusation. Um, you shouldn't be attacking or slandering pastors. Uh, look, I know there's a lot of emotions involved in this, and a lot of people on Facebook are already addressing Chris as he's making comments on this stuff. But, I'll tell you right now, it is not our heart to bring division, um, in the body in the sake of, um, from believers.
There's going to be natural division, and I think it's coming from the people. If you were to hear our whole story today, what we're going to get to, the facts, it's actually the ones that are distorting the truth, it's actually the ones that are not holding to the Calvary Chapel distinctives that are separating themselves from. So, we're just marking the facts, we're acknowledging what they are, and and we're allowing you guys to use your reasoning ability and make the decision for yourself. We're not telling you you got to follow our way, but here's the facts.
>> Yeah, and ultimately when you hear that accusation about that you're causing division, um, the division is already in place. Just basically, you know, calling it to to people's attention is not divisive. It was there all along. So, you know, I don't, I, I, I always think that's just more of a way to try to silence people rather than have to deal with, you know, with what's really taking place.
And I'm just reminded, you know, that the, I think I mentioned a couple of them, but the, uh, the view that we might have, um, and I'm trying to think distinctives. I'm drawing a blank. I don't think Israel's a real big matter as far as that's concerned.
>> It's not, yeah.
>> But right, as, as far as Israel's concerned, um, you pretty much would know what you were going to get when you were going to a Calvary Chapel. But I had, um, in my affiliations process, when I became the senior pastor in 2010, my senior pastor, Jack Stevens, went to be with the Lord. And, uh, I was content to be his assistant until the Lord returned or, you know, until we went home through na- natural means. And, uh, he did exactly that in 2010.
And for the next year, I went through the whole vetting process and the affiliations process as an interim Calvary Chapel pastor, though I was doing all of the the, uh, the things that that were required of that. And that church had been in operations since 1979 when I took over in 2010. So, it it was a church that had been a Calvary Chapel that entire time. And so, I had to answer a whole litany of questions. Uh, whether or not I supported Calvinism, whether or not I had, uh, any views on emer- emergent, uh, theology and and the emerging church, those kind of things. Had a whole bunch of those kind of questions, and I had to answer them in such a way that would make me acceptable to be a Calvary Chapel pastor.
So, again, I don't know Chuck Smith or Brian Brodersen. I know him by by seeing him, but we've never spoken. But, I can tell you the the questions that I had to answer, uh, if he had to answer those exact same questions today, they wouldn't consider him to be a Calvary Chapel pastor. And now, he's been made the senior pastor at the flagship, where it all began. So, if people don't see that that's just kind of setting a different course, then I don't know what, uh, what other evidence you need, but this is not something new. Uh, if you look at their church locator, uh, you'll find a lot of Calvary Chapels have nothing to do with their their global network, and a lot of non-Calvary Chapels are part of it. So, this has been in the works for a very long time.
Yeah, so, you can go to the church locator, you know, at, uh, at at CGN, and you can look at the churches that are there, um, and you can look at the churches on the Calvary Chapel Association. Take a look around your city or draw I don't know, 50 or 100-mile map around your home, and you'll see the ones that are in one association versus the other. It is obviously, there's been a, it's taken a lot of time, but this is, you know, Pastor Chuck has been gone for for 12 years now, a year, 11 and a half years. So, the idea that that a lot has cha- changed and taken place, yeah, it's it's nothing like what it was when Pastor Chuck was alive.
>> Yeah. And I want to get, I want to get to some of the things you said, like the terminology, the CGN, and stuff like that, just for clarity on things, cuz I think saying these things out loud, a lot of people aren't aware that there's actual people that made decisions at some point that that separated themselves from the Calvary Chapel Association. So, I want to get to that for sure.
But, just for for the the sake of everyone paying attention to what's going on, the reason why we we jumped right on it. This has been brewing. We have been talking about potentially doing a conversation and could just kind of talking about the facts. But, [snorts] just on Sunday, it was announced by Brian Brodersen, which was the sitting pastor, uh, lead shepherd at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, right?
Um, he and his wife, they, um, passed off the keys to Char Brodersen, who you mentioned, uh, before. And, I just want to read, uh, what he wrote. We're going to get into this a little bit on on, I think, that the things that they said in this post are identifiers of what their direction is. But, um, Brian Brodersen said, "Today marked the end of my time serving as the senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Cheryl and I both spoke the prophetic words over the church, and the Lord has given us that brought us over 25 years ago that he would restore, uh, the CCM movement to church to the church of brotherly love, referencing Revelation 3:7, and that the glory of this latter house would be greater than the glory of the former."
Um, the rest is self-explanatory. You can find this stuff publicly. But, what, just for for the sake of clarity, what they're saying is that this man now, uh, the son of Brian Brodersen, is now the lead pastor, um, at Calvary Chapel. And, so when Chris is talking about things that he went through to become a Calvary Chapel pastor, um, there are necessary distinctives that you have to hold to and know and understand and support biblically in order to be, um, a shepherd in the movement.
And, so, um, this is a big deal that these were passed off because if you're unfamiliar with the post that we have made in the past, we had brought clarity to a place where, um, we have a video you can go check out and I'll put it in the links where he himself, Char, made several times references that he does not believe Israel, um, modern-day Israel, per quote, he says modern-day Israel is not a fulfillment of the, um, prophecies of scripture, that it is not the Israel in the text. And so we don't need to support them. We don't need to support them blindly, which we conver- we had a whole conversation on that, so go watch that. But he has made public, um, comments, and that is why this is a big deal that he is now the head of that church.
>> What are your thoughts on that?
>> You know, again, it's like I pointed out, he, you can be, you could be made the senior pastor by the the will of the board, and you know, I don't know how exactly it's structured there any longer. Um, but you know, you can appoint anybody to that that place. But as far as Costa Mesa is concerned, they've kind of left very much being a distinctive kind of a church and this is evidence of it. Uh, cuz again, Char, I don't know him on a personal level, but he wouldn't qualify as a traditional Calvary Chapel pastor historically speaking.
Um, but again, the division happened all the way back in 2016. And anybody who was paying attention even before then knew that something was going to be coming. It wasn't going to at Chuck's memorial; it was obvious that there was some changes that were going to be taking place. Um, it took, you know, it's a it's a kind of a slow roll into it, but, um, I'm sure that there are a number of people, myself as you know, obviously from those earliest times, none of us are sur- prised by what we're seeing.
Um, I'm currently, you know, it's just, it is what it is. It doesn't change my life in the least. Uh, it's just, it it it should be some kind of, I think, when it comes to church there should be some kind of truth in advertising, if you will. So, just I think it was in the last month, month and a half I saw that they had redesigned the logo of the dove. It looks nothing like what we thought traditionally as Calvary Chapel, but you know, okay. The people artistic license, they've made it some changes to the dove over the years anyway, so, so what? No, no big deal. But it was more where their leanings were as far as some doctrinal things, especially churches that are part of the group that they've started and their doctrinal views. I know that the doctrinal views of Shar is probably why he couldn't have ever been a Calvary Chapel pastor traditionally. Um, cuz he would have had to have jettisoned those things, and I don't think he had any intention of doing it. Um, but again, it's in Costa Mesa, it's in California. Yeah, it doesn't affect my life at all. Uh, it is just kind of sad to watch how much things have changed since Chuck's passing, though.
>> Yeah. And so when people are attending a Calvary Chapel right now, are, do you think, in general, the general census understands that there is a division within the Calvary Chapel movement? That they, because you're talking about these things, you know, finding churches and stuff, and most of them you're seeing on there are not even Calvary Chapels?
>> Yeah, and pretty much whenever somebody will ask me about, you know, going to a Calvary Chapel, you know, do I have any recommendations in their area? First of all, I would never go to the CGN to find one. I would go to the Calvary Chapel Association, and I can explain the difference between those two if you want.
>> Please do.
>> Okay. Um, then I'll have to give a little bit of the history of what happened in 2016. I can try to make that brief, but when it comes to the the actual churches themselves, if I go to the Calvary Chapel Association, these are the people who willingly, willfully affiliate with that organization, in Calvary Chapel Association. And so they have a a locator that you can look at any of the churches in a particular area. But again, there's been a, I think, a degrading that's happened throughout the movement. And so, I will tell people, here's the one that are in your area, they're part of the association, but sit in the pew, see if you're, you know, if it feels like a home to you.
Um, I can't tell you how often I have heard from people who go to Calvary Chapels and they say, "It's not like what I remember back in the day of going to this place or that place. I go there and it just doesn't feel the same way." Um, so, I always tell them, you know, find a place and make sure that it feels like home.
So, where the two, where the division came, um, the division was always there from the very word go, but it was never discussed, and it was actually, uh, represented to the to the rank and file as though everything was fine. Uh, everything wasn't fine by the the time 2016 rolled around. Uh, some things were said, uh, mainly by Brian at a pastor's conference in, uh, in Seattle at Wayne Taylor's church. Um, yeah, so September, uh, 2016. And some letters went back and forth, uh, between the association to the pastors, and then they became public. So, it wasn't like it was being hidden. And, uh, letters went back and forth between Brian and the churches, uh, of the association rather. And I think it was on Halloween night, if I remember correctly, 2016, uh, Brian left the association. And, uh, not sure not long after that, uh, everything obviously looked like it had been put in place anyway, that that split was coming cuz they kind of hit the ground running with it. Uh, he started what was called the Calvary Global Network. And, uh, it was a different association, same church locators. Uh, we were told, "If you don't want to be in it, you can ask to be taken out of it in writing. Do so, send us an email or whatever, and we'll we'll remove you from the list." Uh, oddly enough, I wasn't even on it from the word go.
>> Wow.
>> I, though I've never talked with anybody there, they don't they didn't want me to be a part of their their global network. Incidental, whatever. Um, so anyway, that all kind of took, you know, some time to roll out. Um, of course, this is at that point, you know, 3 years removed, almost definitely 3 years removed from Chuck's passing. That's how long it took for it to all really kind of manifest and kind of come apart. And that has been the two houses ever since. And the the difference, them, I believe, has become wider by the day.
Um, but it is again, it's a slow rolling process. But this is the first real big leap, I believe, uh, since, uh, since Brian left the association. This is the, this is the biggest move that's that's happened since then. And as much of a of a departure from what we've been as Brian was from Chuck, uh, Brian to now Char is another one of those big big leaps between what was and what is now. And frankly, it's unrecognizable compared to what it had been. Uh, not only from the doctrinal views of of what Char has and the other ones who are around him, I'm assuming, versus what Chuck would have had. Uh, let's just put it this way. If Chuck were still alive, Costa Mesa would look nothing like what it does currently in operation, in practice, in any conceivable way other than it's on the same plot of land.