Transcription
Welcome back to Send Better Emails.
All right, welcome. All right. Yeah. Do you want me to just revert back to saying all right to open the episode?
Uh, I do like all right. It's, um, it's how I open some of our newsletters. So, yeah, I think it's an underrated greeting.
Okay.
There you go. That's the episode.
It's, yeah, cuz it's like hello and how are you all in one, like rolled into one.
Yeah. And I'm all about brevity and, you know, kind of like word economy. You know, that's that's the defining characteristic of me. I never waffle.
As any listeners to this podcast will know.
Full well.
Yeah. Your nickname is Waffle House. Um, it's right next to Kristoff's Crepes in Norwich.
So, um, anything going on with you? Anything to record?
No. Well, Secret Norwich passed 8,000 subscribers the other day. That's pretty cool.
Nice. If I, if I was a proper editor, there'd be like, you know, the air horn thing going off right now.
Yeah. You don't have the skills to incorporate those.
Unfortunately, not. No. So, um,
Just do one with your mouth instead.
No, it's embarrassing.
There we go. That one. Well done, James. Um, so, yeah, congrats to us. Um, I know you put most of the work into Secret Norwich, so congrats to you mostly.
Well, congrats to, congrats to both of us. Um, yeah. No, that's, um, that's cool. Um, you know, 8,000 isn't a big milestone, but it's, I think any thousand deserves to be acknowledged. At least 10,000 is when I think you, you know, you have like a proper, maybe we do an episode on 10,000. 8,000, that's a mention at the start of an episode.
Okay, fine. Um, let's not, let's not give it more space than it deserves, then. So, that's that.
Uh, your fantasy football newsletter has grown nicely. Obviously, peak part of the year for, for that, right?
Yeah. Yeah. We're now at, um, over 100,000. We've decided, actually, interestingly, we've decided to now be more coy about our numbers.
Um, okay.
Yeah. We will, of course, tell, uh, people that are interested in advertising with us, we'll give them everything they need to know. But, um, when it comes to like, what the number that we give publicly, like, once you've got to 100,000, we were like, well, really, like, are we going to, what, like, every thousand we're going to be like, "Oh, we've got like 107,000." Like, it's just, like, once you've got over 100,000, it doesn't, it's all white noise. It doesn't really matter, does it? Like, maybe 200,000 we update it, but like,
Okay. So, every thousand is a milestone stops when you get to 100,000.
The next milestone is 200,000.
Actually, no. I would say every milestone stops when you get to 10,000. Then it's every 10,000.
Okay.
And then when you get to 100,000, it's every 100,000.
Okay.
That's, that's, that's, I don't know. Yeah. I don't, I don't know if that's true, but I just think, I just think it seems lame to be like,
Yeah. Like 103,000. I don't know.
Okay. When you get to a million?
Is it every half million or every?
I would say so. I think actually when you get to a million, I'm going to, I'm going to reverse it. That's when you go exactly how many subscribers you've got and you have a live counter.
Okay.
That's what, um, that's what, what is it? 4, is it 440, they're called? Uh, 1440. That's what they do. They have like,
3,900,078, you know, and it, and it, and it, and it goes up. It rolls off as you're on the landing page. It's like this social proof of like, people are joining right this very moment. You should join them.
Yeah.
Um, which is, is quite a nice idea.
I like that. Okay.
There you go.
Uh, and you're going away next week.
Yes.
You're going wild camping.
Yeah. Partly, only two nights of wild camping. Thank the Lord. Uh, if it was a whole week, I would, I would, I mean, I'm going to struggle with two nights. Um, it's, it's in Scotland, so it's going to be, um, full of, uh, like hazards. Um, you know,
Is it like midge season?
It is. Yeah. But they, they have, um, they actually, I discovered this incredible piece of content marketing, um, which is a like a midge forecaster. It's called Smidge. And it's like, it's, it's like a, it's like this map of Scotland, like a weather map, but then rather than like sun or cloud or rain, it has numbers from one to five. One being no midges, five being like there's midges everywhere.
Midge-ageddon.
Midge-ageddon. Exactly. Yeah. And like the tone of voice of it is quite fun and it's, um, like the de facto, like whenever you're researching midges in Scotland, it's like, you need to use Smidge. And I think Smidge sells, I think their primary business is they sell midge repellent. So, they've got this like incredible funnel where like everyone who's going to Scotland, who looks up midges in Scotland will always find this, um, this map and it's like updated in real time. It's amazing. So, been using that.
Nice. Okay. Um, so, you're able to midge-gate, um, against those circumstances.
My word, I, uh, I can't think of a retort that also involves the word midge, I'm afraid. So, I'm just, I'm just going to, I'm just going to doth my cap to that.
To swiftly move on.
Cool. Okay. So, in the, in the name of swiftly moving on, what do we want to talk about today, James?
Uh, we're going to talk about, um, how you bring back a newsletter from the dead because it occurred to us that quite a lot of people, um, have pre-existing lists, maybe from like a decade ago, and they're just kind of lying dormant in some email service provider's database somewhere. And, um, they want to reinvigorate it. But there are certain practices that need to be observed before you can do that. It's like, if you haven't eaten for ages, you can't just suddenly go and get a Sunday roast. That, that could be dangerous. You have to wean yourself back onto food. And it's, it's a bit like that with, uh, it's a bit like that with your email list.
Okay. So, bringing your email list back to life, uh, in some kind of like Mary Shelley style, um, horror novel.
Oh, nice literary reference. Well, you know, you're so cultured and varied.
I am. Yeah.
That's what people say about you.
Is it? Yeah.
Um,
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So, why talk to me about, um, you used an analogy there about not just gorging yourself on Sunday roast if you're in starvation.
So, why morbid? Uh,
It was a bit morbid.
I was kind of more thinking like fasting, but you took it down the starvation route. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, okay. If you're in that situation, then why can you not just say, "Okay, well, I haven't emailed my list in a couple of years. Let's start sending emails." What are some of the pitfalls and what are some of the things you need to keep in mind?
Well, I suppose fundamentally, just like anything that you leave abandoned for a long period of time,
email lists decay with with time. You know, they, they grow old. They get moldy and tatty around the edges. And the people on your list, uh, move jobs, some of them change, uh, email addresses. I mean, the, almost everyone you speak to that has an email address, um, which is, you know, every internet user more or less will have had a different email address at one point in their lives. Or I used to have a Hotmail address. Now I have a Gmail address. So that transition happens for people at different periods as well. Um, and slowly but surely, your, your list, yeah, it, it ages and, um, it won't be the same quality it was anymore. So if you suddenly email that list and email everyone on it, you might find that only 40%, for example, uh, of your recipients, uh, still check the inbox that they signed up to your email list using. Um, and that's going to be a horror show for your deliverability. And again, just for the uninitiated, deliverability is the chances of your emails reaching primary inboxes. So, not being caught by spam filters, not being, uh, consigned to the, uh, the, the junk folder. So,
Okay. Um, yeah. So, um, if we're sending, let's say we've got a thousand people and we're sending an email for the first time in ages to all of them and only 40% of them are delivered, that's going to be a big red flag to your Gmails, your Apple Mails that says this could well be spam. And, um, it's very difficult to raise the impact of bad deliverability once you have it.
Nice. Okay. So, email lists, they don't age like fine wine. They don't,
Or good cheese. Uh, they age like a satsuma.
Yeah. Yeah. I would go as far as to say they age like a pear.
A pear.
Yeah.
Okay. Why? What's the difference between aging like a satsuma and aging like a pear?
Um, I would say that the way that a pear ages is more rapid, um, and dramatic. Um.
Okay.
Yeah. I, I'd say it, uh, I don't know. It just, I, in my mind's eye, like I can imagine a pear really shriveling up to a tiny form of its previous self, whereas I feel like a satsuma mostly maintains its size. It just goes green.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's probably the most serious I've ever seen you talk about a subject ever.
Um, you stuck your thumb in a moldy satsuma last week as well.
Oh, I did. Yeah. And do you remember the noise it made? 'cause you were there? Yeah.
We both looked at each other when I shoved my thumb in it and it was like,
And, and I looked at you and you looked at me and it was, yeah, it was like a knowing glance of like, you got, you got to be careful with that.
Yeah.
Um, you still, you persisted and then found out it was moldy.
Yeah. It was horrible. Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, okay. So, we got lost in an analogy again, but,
So, we have this list then that's laid dormant. We haven't used it. Um, you know, I guess the, if you haven't sent an email to a list for a long while, no one's had the chance to unsubscribe either.
You know, that's, so it's not even cleaning itself, um, at that point, let alone any manual kind of cleaning process that you might have done.
So, when we have a list like that then, uh, and we haven't emailed it for a, Okay, first question. How long, um, will have you, sorry, let me try and get this question right. What is the window that you would recommend, uh, that I just can't get this question out?
Why don't we use another analogy? Let's take the pear.
No. Um, is, is what you're trying to drive at here like, at what point is your, is your list considered neglected?
Yeah. Well, at what point, what's the long enough window for it to be, okay, this is now neglected?
Yeah. I mean, I, I'd say, um, the, the answer to that can vary depending on, um, the size of it and the frequency with which you were emailing it prior to this, uh, supposed neglect.
But, but generally, I mean, just as a rule of thumb, I would say, um, if you're, if you're, if enough time has passed that emailing the people on your list would be unusual and unexpected on their part, then it's probably been too long.
Yeah. Okay. Um, let's use another analogy here then. So, if you miss a couple of weeks in the gym because you were going once every week, it probably doesn't matter. But if you miss six weeks, then it does matter because it's unusual for you to be back in the gym.
Yeah. Exactly. Like, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like, maybe
the staff don't like recognize you when you walk in, or maybe your muscles are like, "What, what the hell are you doing to me?" and they, they hurt more afterwards because like, you haven't exercised for so long, like,
Um, yeah.
I would, I wouldn't know, but you know, some people probably miss gym sessions.
Yeah. I mean, you, yeah, of course, that's, yeah, you never, you never, you never skip them.
No, no, no. Never. Um, okay. So, we, so it's got to a stage where it's unusual for you to be emailing them again. So, it's kind of, that's where we feel like it's, it's gone dormant. Um, so, then my question to you is, if we get to that stage, we feel like, okay, it's been a while. Um, what can we do? Um, so, you know, we, we always say on this podcast, we tend to just say everything and we don't, we kind of just give it all away and then people can just do it or they don't, or whatever. We're not protective about it.
Do you want to be protective about the process here, or do you want to just?
No, no, no. I'm, I'm generally will, will never choose to be protective, um, if I can help it.
Okay.
Um,
No. So, the, the process is, is relatively simple. So, the, the problem that you're facing is that if you just send everyone an email in order to ascertain how many of those emails are dead, you've already caused damage because you, you've already sent the email that's going to have knock-on effects on your deliverability. So, um, sending an email will tell you, um, who gets the email and who opens email and who clicks email and equally who doesn't. Um, and once you've done that, you could separate them, but the problem is you can't. So, we have to do something before the send, and this is where third-party software comes in. Um, so at The Inbox Club, we use software called NeverBounce. This episode is not sponsored by NeverBounce. We just like it. And NeverBounce gives us the chance to, um, upload a list into its system. It will tell us which email addresses are valid, uh, which are not valid and, uh, you know, are dead because for whatever reason, you know, that they were typed in wrong originally, or the, the company that it's associated with is now closed down, whatever it might be. And it will also give us, um, a small percentage of of email addresses that it can't ascertain one way or the other. Um, so, once we've got that, we can then immediately disregard all of the email addresses that aren't valid and ensure that the new list that we re-upload back into our system is only at those email addresses who we know for sure could receive our emails. They're still active inboxes. Um, and we might, depending on how many there are, we might also upload the ambiguous pile, um, but only if it's a small enough percentage of the, the list of valid email addresses, um, because again, this comes back to deliverability. We don't, we don't want to take any risks with sending an email that people aren't going to receive. Um, so, that is the way to do it. And once we have that information, that then gives us a foundation. That's not the end of the job. Um, we then send an email to that list and then through the email and the way that people engage with that email, we can make further refinements as we go. We can start targeting the people who opened the last email. We can start, we can send extra stuff to the people that clicked the last email. Um, but we should be extra vigilant when we're sending, uh, emails to a dormant list for the first time, um, to, uh, to, to continue to clean. Like, the cleaning is not once and done. We then need to continue to clean because of the valid email addresses, there are going to be plenty that just aren't interested in hearing from you. So, um, I also do want to talk about messaging as well, Jamie. I want to throw this question at you, though, because I think messaging is really, really important when it comes to this. So, we, we kind of covered the technical stuff, but it's also like, what are you going to say in this message, right? You can't just continue as business with business as usual. Um, so, what kind of angle would you be taking here if you're emailing a list? Let's say you haven't emailed for an entire year.
That was me catching the question. Said you said you were going to throw the question to me. So I was,
Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Oh, nice. Nice. I'm glad you explained that, 'cause I had no idea.
I had no idea what you were doing.
You're going to ring an ambulance.
This is an episode. It's an episode. Sends anyway.
Oh, sorry. It is bad. Um, okay. So, messaging. Yeah. I think we, what we don't want to do is just like go back to business as usual as if nothing happened, as if we haven't just not emailed the list in the for two years. So, I, from, from my p, in my opinion, we should be talking about it more frankly and saying, "Okay, well, maybe it's been a while, um, and I'm going to start emailing again, and this is what the emails are going to be about. If that sounds like a bit of you, awesome. If it's not, no hard feelings. You can opt out here." So, I think about addressing it up front is a good thing because it humanizes the content as well. Um, so, that, that's what I would say about messaging. And what we have done before, which tends to work quite well, is the intro alludes to something like that. And then it says, you know, "If you're interested in receiving this email every week, here's a, here's a, um, a taste of what it's going to look like." And then you launch into what is the first, um, edition of your newsletter.
Um, I think that is the best way to do it. What I, what I don't want to do is just send an email that says, "Are you still interested in this? Click here to opt out if you're not." That's, that's, I think we want to offer that in the intro. We want to humanize the, the messaging where we can. Um, and all of that serves as a great advert for the kind of content you're going to be sending in the future. It's like, okay, this, you've got an opportunity there, not just to say the stuff, but to say the stuff in your way, in your tone, um, and with your lived experience. So, you, you're giving this window into the way that you, you know, your content is going to look moving forward.
And all of that subversive stuff is happening whenever you write, whenever you write content. Um, and it's happening whether you, whether you mean to or not. Um, and whe, if you think you're not doing it, then your content is probably still doing it. It's just giving the wrong impression. It's probably boring. So, um, that's what I would say about messaging. Um, and then just make the first one really good. You know, you know, some weeks newsletter, like the topics are going to, it's like our, our newsletter. It's like this podcast. Like, some weeks the topics are bangers. Some weeks we, we're chatting five minutes before we press record and we kind of got like a half-assed topic that we think is kind of important and so, it, it, it's not quite as good.
Which one is this?
Uh, uh, this is probably somewhere in the middle.
I don't know.
How very fencing of you.
Uh, yeah. No, we did open, we did open with midges.
I think, I think, I think the, yeah, true. I think, I think the, um, the thing is, yeah, with your topics is that you, there will be topics that appeal to more of your audience and topics that appeal to less. And, you know, like being boring or being interesting is sort of in the eye of the beholder. And I think this, this episode will be super interesting for people that are in this exact predicament. For a lot of, a lot of our listeners, it might be a bit surplus to requirement. But,
Yeah. So, what are you saying then, that, that first edition should just be the one that would probably have the most mass appeal?
Exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. I would try to make it as kind of universally applicable to as many people on your list as you can, um, or, you know, the people you want to be speaking to on your list. And that's the other thing. Maybe during the time, um, that has elapsed since you last sent them an email, you have a clearer idea of how you want to come across and who you want to be talking to. So, it might be that you are sticking quite a clear line in the sand here and saying, like, this newsletter is no longer going to be for you if you match this description. It's going to be for these people. Um, and that can also be a really nice way of making sure you definitely get the people that you want to get. Um, so, yeah, I also, by the way, just want to, because something you just touched on, I just want to very quickly say that, um, I would definitely avoid opt-in. Um, people have this tendency to say, "Let's give people the chance to opt into newsletter 2.0," and, um, it just doesn't work. And, and the, the big problem with it is that, um, firstly, people tend to overestimate how many people are going to opt in. Even the most engaging newsletters in the world, um, won't get, um, a huge number of people opting in because opting in takes effort, and people just don't want to expend that effort. Um, but also, people see it as a genuine reflection of how many people are interested in their emails. Again, that's a falsehood. You can be really interested in an email, but you just can't be asked to click a button. Um, and so, uh, or you might be interested in some emails, but not others. Like, it's, it's, it's so changeable. You might just have missed that particular email and then you don't get the chance to opt in because you never saw it because your inbox is full, or you're on holiday, or whatever it might be. So, um, I would avoid opt-in altogether. Assume that people want to be a member. If they don't, they will unsubscribe. That, they have the opt-out ability every time you send an email, assuming that you're complying with GDPR.
Cool. I like that. You, that little, it's like on the radio when they read the terms and conditions now, but,
Yeah, it's like, really quick.
Okay. I think the, um, might be the last thing unless you got anything else you want to add on on here. We don't, we haven't done hot takes for a while. Maybe we'll do one of those. But I think if, if we've taken all these steps and we've done this stuff to revive our email list and we've got this new newsletter angle, that this proposition, and we're sending a re-engagement email, and we now have this more distilled, uh, rejuvenated version of our old, decrepit list. Um, now it's like, okay, what's next? 'Cause it's not just, okay, now I have this list, now I can start emailing. I think for me, what's next is important. I think it should be, sorry, someone's beeping outside. What's, what happens next should be, okay, well, now we need, uh, more satsumas in the fruit bowl, so we need list growth. We want more people coming in through the front door, because we just lost a whole load of old people out the back door. So, list growth is the next important thing. How do we get more fresh blood in there? How do we keep growing our email list? Because in the meantime, it will always be shrinking. Email lists always shrink. The best email lists, clients that have, we have clients that that have unbelievable engagement metrics, their list still shrinks. It still gets unsubscribes. It always will. So, if that's happening as a given, then we should be putting people in the top end. So, list growth is the next action point.
Nice. Yeah, I agreed. I like it. Is that also your hot take?
Yeah, maybe it is. Let's just do that.
Nice.
Do you have a hot take?
No, I don't think so. Um, it would have been the opt-in thing. Um, I think, uh,
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People to opt out rather than opt in.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I guess all I would say is that, um, it's not a hot take, but just a, a message maybe to end on is that, like, um, sending emails is a form of care of your, um, list. Obviously, we want more proactive list hygiene, but just sending emails is a form of list hygiene because, as we've already pointed out, people will always unsubscribe. Um, that's a good thing. Uh, people, every time you send an email, have the decision as to whether or not to stay, um, a member of your list or not. Um, and so, um, if you are listening to this and thinking, "Damn, I fit that description. I've got this list. Haven't touched it in 3 years." I would just say, "Yeah, use something like NeverBounce. Other, um, types of software are available." And then,
Not the BBC.
You don't have to say that, but go on.
Oh, no, no, no. I, I meant, I meant purely, yeah, I know. I meant purely from a sense of like, it might not be the best. Like, I haven't tried them all. Um, yeah, there might be cheaper ones. I don't, I don't know. NeverBounce is good. Um, and, and, um, yeah, use something like NeverBounce and then just start sending emails and just, that's when you start learning and when you start really properly cleaning your list.
Okay, nice. Um, I think that does us for today.
Nice.
Perfect. So, thanks for listening. It's been another episode of Send Better Emails from The Inbox Club. I'm Jamie. He's James.
This is the podcast.
Actually, you're Jamie Woodbridge. You've put your second name as well.
Jamie Woodbridge. Yeah, that might not come up on the final recording, by the way.
How does it not?
Well, maybe. I can't remember now.
Oh, I hope it does, 'cause it makes you look like a wanker.
What?
That's not just a name. That's not just a name play that makes that happen. Um,
Right. On that note, listeners,
this has been, uh, James and Wanker from St. Barry Mouse. See you later.
Bye. Bye.
Bye.
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