Transcription
[Michael] Hi.
- [Orna] Hey.
- [Michal] Hi.
- Oh, wow.
- This is Nico. Hi, I'm Orna.
- I met him when I was 21. Three months later, we got married. When we first got married, there was good and there was bad. Big picture items, we're on the same page about, like, how to raise our children.
- Uh-huh.
- The fact that we both, you know, we're Jewish and we're orthodox, so we agree on everything having to do with that. But over the course of the last few years, things have definitely become more difficult. I've been very disappointed with, like, where we are now, and, and-
- Where you are as far as?
- Everything. Like where we are financially, where we are as a couple, where we are sexually. Like, I want to be pregnant yesterday. I ask him that all the time. You know, I ask him, when am I going to have another baby, Michael? Well, we can't afford one right now, unless I do something. So I'm constantly walking around with all this resentment and all this anger and all this frustration. So, and I feel like ultimately, the reason for that is I blame him because if he were different, then the situation would be different. If he acted differently, if he acted accordingly-
- Then he would deliver the life you-
- [Michal] Yeah.
- Wanted.
- He would deliver the life that I want.
- So what happened?
- Why am I answering all the questions? Maybe you can pipe in.
- What happened?
- What happened? Why have I not-
- How is that-
- Satisfied her every night.
- You know what happened? He happened.
- See, that's not a nice way to introduce me. I mean, my general perspective on marriage is more that, like, it's two people trying to make it through life together as partners. And they're each contributing whatever they can in whatever way they can to get through it.
- You know what that sounds like to me, when he says that? Is I'm hearing that is what a lazy person would say. Oh, you know what it is? It's that every, every individual, it's like a socialism, right? So we're in a socialist cooperative now, and every person has to contribute-
- In the case of marriage, I feel like socialism isn't the worst model.
- I'm sure you feel that way. Every person has to contribute equally.
- Can you both person slow it down?
- I'm the person that's screwed over by it because I'm the person that's contributing on every front so much more than you are.
- Just to be clear. That's total nonsense. Right?
- No, it isn't.
- One second, I'm not doing anything towards improving our future?
- I'm doing more than-
- [Michael] How do you measure when you're doing enough and when I'm not doing enough?
- Because all I expect of you is literally one thing and you don't do that thing.
- What is that one thing?
- Support me so that I don't have to work.
- That's kind of a big umbrella to throw things under.
- You're right. It's so hard. 'Cause I'm demanding billions of dollars out of you.
- So it is just a number? There's a number somewhere? I expect this of you.
- It's not a number.
- Call me when you've got it.
- I don't know. Yeah, maybe.
- It feels like, a little bit like a ransom, honestly.
- Okay, well if you're not willing to pay it, then maybe you should be married to someone else.
- Is that a healthy dynamic? Say like-
- I don't care.
- I would like here-
- I'm so tired of having these conversations with you. You think that I want-
- Michal, Michal. Give some room.
- I'm just, I'm so exhausted.
- But you're, you're partially exhausted because you are working so hard. You don't need to do all of that.
- [Michal] 'Cause that's my life with him.
- [Orna] But you're here with me.
- I can't sit back, I can't sit back.
- [Orna] You here with me.
- I always have to be in the driver's seat.
- Can I ask you to pause?
- Sure.
- What do you think about that?
- I would say that she's probably right that I have a laissez-faire attitude, and I'm just generally comfortable with how things are. I just think that life is more manageable if you enjoy it. And I think that anyone who doesn't take it as a priority is just going to fail miserably in one way or another.
- How are you feeling?
- Very, very angry. I've enabled you to relax and enjoy your life for the last decade. And now it's time for you to get up off your ass and start doing something and stop relaxing. Grow your damn law firm.
- [Michael] I am working on that.
- I haven't seen you do anything. I feel so exhausted by this marriage. You know? It's like two people and they're in the race. And in order to get to the finish line, they both have to, they both have to finish together, right?
- Like a three-legged race.
- Like you're, yeah, you're tied to each other.
- Three-legged race.
- And I feel like our marriage is that I am running with all my might. And I'm running as fast as I possibly can and he's inching along saying, it's okay, we'll get there. That has been our marriage and I'm just tied to him.
- Completely what I see right here.
- [Michal] Yes.
- Yes. I see how hard you're working. I get it. Where are you?
- He thinks it's hysterical.
- No.
- [Orna] But you're still doing-
- I'm just, I'm like, at times like this, I'm ready to just punch him in the face.
- But you're doing so much work.
- And it's exhausting to me. Stop it. Why do you find this funny?
- Why do you think I find this funny?
- Sometimes, I feel like I just hate him so much, I can't stand being around him. I'm sitting here, and I want to get somewhere, and I want to fix it, and it's not as though I've sat back for the past 10 years of my marriage and said, you know what? I want more children, so I'm just going to sit around on my ass and and eat bon-bons and pop out kid after kid and you'll figure out a way to support them. I've been there with him. I've been doing everything that I need to do. And what is he doing? He's laughing. He thinks that this is funny. I'm so tired of it.
- I get it. I get it.
- [Michal] It's like, what is even the point? What's the point?
- Can you let me do some of the work and you relax?
- [Michal] Yeah, okay.
- So how are you feeling when Michal is saying these things?
- She's not wrong. Like she's aware of the facts as well as I am. Like, the reason I was chuckling was I was imagining Michal running a three-legged race with my son. And I could imagine her like dragging him along, not caring that he was like crying. And I feel like, yeah, I might lose the race if I ran with him, but I think he'd enjoy it more. It was more just like-
- How, how-
- [Michael] The absurdity struck me.
- How do you feel when Michal is describing you as lazy, unable to pull your weight?
- I mean that hurts.
- [Orna] Exploiting her.
- I don't think I'm lazy. I think I work pretty hard.
- [Orna] How do you feel?
- I don't like that it hurts her, but I do like that she provokes me to do more and be better.
- So there's something about this dynamic that's working for you?
- Right. And that's probably unhealthy for me to just be like, well, that works for me.
- What I'm trying to decipher is whether you are, there's something about this kind of dynamic of being provoked that is enjoyable, pleasurable to you? Or are you actually humiliated? Or both?
- I wouldn't say that it's pleasurable. I'd say that it's useful.
- [Orna] Hey.
- Hi.
- [Orna] How are you two?
- Could be better. You know, most kids' schools are closed, so they're home all day every day.
- Whoa!
- [Michal] I felt like it was just going crazy. And then he told me would be here all day with me, working from home. And I was just so happy. But my frustration level with him hasn't changed. I still feel like I want to kill him. I feel like definitely because he's home, I have more direct contact with him. So I see what he's doing like every day, all day. And he's been spending a lot of time wasting his time. And, at the same time, you know, I'm working on my company, and then there's the kids and the house cleaning and just everything that goes along with that. And then when I like see that, you know, he's spending hours like watching TV or talking to his friends, I just feel very taken advantage of.
- Okay. We'll get back there. I want to hear Michael's perspective on this.
- She doesn't know what exactly it is I do and she doesn't know what I'm able to do while I'm doing that. I just feel so annoyed that like, why do I have to go into the weeds as to what I'm able to do.
- You literally do nothing.
- Literally.
- Do you realize that right now, if I worked one day a week, which I'm doing now, I would make more than you make in an entire week. You literally do nothing. You are so lazy. Your existence is worthless right now. It's absolutely worthless.
- I want to make a suggestion.
- The kids are more dirty. Like I don't, I don't understand. Did you give Olivia bath today? Because he seemed to be wearing the same thing as last night. Surprise, surprise! Not surprise at all actually.
- Michal, Michal.
- Did either of them eat anything that wasn't junk?
- I need you to engage with me in a way because we can't have you just keep repeating yourself. I really get it. But do you want some help in changing things?
- Yeah, but I don't think that things are going to change by him just constantly saying I disagree, I disagree, she doesn't see me, she doesn't see what I do. You know what? You want me to not see what you do? Stop doing everything because you literally do nothing. So just stop working, stop it. I don't need you anymore, okay?
- Michal! Michal, you are unraveling. Michal, can you engage with me? I understand what's frustrating you, but the way you're doing it is not working. It's really not working. But Michal, what if you were, for a while, not in the business of handling Michael? Hold on.
- What if we did it the opposite and he tried a little bit to be more like me. And see how hard it is to do all the things that I just do for him and for this family?
- Honestly, I think that I probably do more for the family than she does. I think that she is-
- I'm sorry, but this is just such bullshit. Like when I hear something like that, I literally want to smack him.
- I'm not managing to have much of an impact. And I don't know if it's partially due to this technology, but it's very difficult for me to intervene at all. I feel like you're either you don't hear me or you're not interested or you're too invested in this thing that the two of you do and you don't actually want help from the outside.
- I do want help. I want to try. I would be happy to try to do this.
- Okay. So if you started doing a few things that you're watching Michael doing and you're feeling envious of, what would that be?
- Well, I feel like he spends a lot of time watching TV, talking to his friends, not really taking care of the kids, but just kind of hanging around and playing with them. So I want to do all those things.
- Okay. So can I, now, give you kind of a doctor's prescription that every day you're taking two hours a day to do that. Two hours a day.
- How am I going to fit it into my schedule?
- I'm serious.
- [Michal] Okay.
- And whatever you want done during those two hours, dump it onto Michael and Michael will have to do it his way.
- [Michael] Right.
- [Michal] Okay, fine.
- Okay. Been a while.
- Yes, it has. It's been months.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yes. This one has been keeping passage of time.
- What?
- I said this one's been keeping track of the passage of time. The baby? See.
- I thought you would notice right away.
- Wow.
- [Michal] Yeah.
- Mazel tov!
- [Michal] Thanks.
- [Orna] Wait, so how many weeks are you?
- [Michal] I'm three months.
- Three months?
- Yeah. It really was like a decision I made in a day. Like I was switching over to the next pack of birth control and I just decided not to take it and a week later I was pregnant. I think I was just angry about it for so long and like in my vehemence and frustration, it was like, no, I'm not going to take the pills. And I told them about it, and yeah, that was it.
- How are you feeling about this pregnancy and about another child coming?
- Like happy in general. I remember a time when we were talking when you really wanted a baby and it sounded like you were not totally.
- No, I was on board.
- [Orna] On board or?
- No, he always wanted a baby.
- Or more that you felt like he's not doing, that Michael is not doing what you require him to do to have one.
- [Michal] Yeah.
- Not making.
- You know, I still, I still felt feel that way, but I feel like there was like a substantive change after one of the weeks that we were here. He has been offering to help me with just a bunch of like household tasks, just randomly just like getting up and doing them, taking care of the kids more. And it's just overall, just, these things that I feel like I've been complaining about for so long, he's now doing with having almost, very little to no input from me, which I like.
- Okay. Let's pause here.
- [Michal] Okay.
- Do you recognize that in yourself? Does that feel true?
- I mean, sort of. I mean like I see more the effects of the thing than just like a change.
- [Orna] Meaning, you see, you're looking outside of you and you're seeing the effect you don't know how to find it inside.
- Yeah. I don't see any internal process that's all that different. Or at least-
- That's interesting.
- Yeah. Like I don't think that my perspectives on things have changed that much. I don't think I'm relating to anything around me all that differently than I normally do. Which, I mean-
- It seems like you are actually refusing to take ownership for what you're doing,
- But I don't so much care about what specifically I'm doing.
- Well, let's try to care about it.
- Can I take a detour? One thing that occurred to me is that we've been here a number of times already and I think that it's kind of been a little bit unfair towards him because we've discussed a lot about, you know, what I don't like in the relationship, and, the difficulties that I find in like his personality. And I feel like we're painting this picture, which isn't totally accurate, that he has all these faults and he's like this horrible monster and I'm like, just like this quintessential perfect little angel, which is really not true because I'm very difficult to deal with. Really-
- Wow.
- I'm not an easy person.
- [Michael] Wow. And I was just wondering, maybe like you had some comments to make to me if there are things that you think that I'm doing that, how I can alter my behavior, that could also make our relationship better. So it's not just all on him.
- You're asking her to critique your wifeing.
- Wait, but first of all-
- Way to summarize that.
- But I want to ask you, do you, I'm, I'm actually stunned. You don't feel like I've been telling you things like that?
- I do. But I feel like a lot of what you've been telling me is to sit back and relax. Like, I don't know, maybe there are other things that I'm doing that aren't.
- I think maybe what I will translate what you're asking into, because the way I'm talking to you is indeed, I mean, you speak a very cut and dry language, right? You go for the jugular in your language. You want to go straight to the point.
- [Michal] Yes.
- And I have not been talking to you like that, most of the time I've been talking to you in a way that I'm trying to actually convey a feeling, which is, take two hours a day and relax rather than say to you, you are overwhelmed with anxiety and you are depriving your husband of the space to become himself. And then you're complaining that he's not showing you who he is.
- If that's the thing, if that's what I need to do, just like lay off him.
- But lay off him means address your own anxieties as yours. Deal with them as, first of all, your anxieties rather than his doing. So all this like, build up of you getting furious, you then getting indeed revengeful and sadistic can leave the two of you. Does that make sense to you?
- When we came here, I felt like he just didn't do anything. Like, you know, I complained about every aspect of our marriage-
- [Orna] I know.
- That he doesn't do.
- And now it's like in so many different aspects of our life that has changed. You know, it's changed with our, like intimacy in our relationship.
- Wonderful.
- It's changed with what he actually physically does like walking up around the house. It's changed with chores, it's changed with the kids. It's all changed. But you know what? There's always like this underlying fear in me that I have to like keep this going because if I don't and I let like my guard down, he's just going to slip back and slide-
- Why are you even like appointing yourself as taskmaster?
- I don't, the thing is maybe that's what's driving me crazy is I don't want to be this person anymore. I don't want to feel like I have to like stand over you with a whip be an adult.
- You definitely don't have.
- [Michal] So then what's going to happen?
- [Orna] Yeah. But can I ask you then to follow this idea of like getting curious about yourself?
- Okay.
- So let's say your anxiety about nothing ever happening is not only about the two of you. Like who taught you to be anxious like this?
- Probably my mother. My father, my mother tried to go to Israel, like it didn't work out for them and they lost a lot of money in the transition. So she was extremely, extremely nervous and like anxious like all the time. I know that my parents had some very hard times and they are where they are right now because they both like bear down and worked and did as much as they possibly could and weren't lazy. You know, the thing is-
- What I'm trying to kind of invite you to do is not take it as only as a concrete reality, but to understand that these are also anxieties that when they get instilled in a young person, they take on this kind of mythical quality. What I'm trying to somehow find a way to encourage curiosity in you is to read your own anxiety that way. To understand it as like a memory or something that was handed down to you like an errand that was handed down to you by your family.
- I mean-
- [Orna] Do you understand what I'm saying?
- Yeah, I understand what you're saying but like my gut reaction to that is, yeah, but like I'm right because-
- You don't want to sit here and convince me that we all should be anxious the way you're anxious. You want me to invite you to take a look at your anxiety, do you understand? Do do you get what I'm saying?
- Yeah. I get what you're saying. Jealous of those people.
- You're too anxious to consider your life enjoyable.
- Maybe.
- [Orna] And it sounds like maybe you're hoping for something for your kids.
- Yeah, I do. I was thinking about that today-
- But we're hearing remnants of this blueprint that your mother has.
- [Michael] Yeah, it sounds like a similar dynamic from your mother.
- I know.
- Like if-
- I feel almost comical saying it because it's like so obvious,
- Right?
- [Orna] That that is part of the blueprint.
- Yeah.
- Is to never actually enjoy your life?
- Right.
- Because the next one will.
- Too hard. Maybe the next generation will.
- [Michal] Yeah.
- [Michael] But it didn't work out with you.
- I know.
- Can I ask, Michael, how do you think your couple's life and your family life would change if Michal was less anxious?
- I wouldn't even know.
- Try to imagine.
- I mean, the immediate thing that comes into mind is that I would have to do more things. That doesn't bother me. I'd be fine with that. Like the anxiety rolls off of me, like water off a duck's back. But she can't not get there, like that's how it feels.
- Well it's also because a part of me doesn't rely on him. Like, for example, did you schedule your teeth whitening yet? No.
- Yes.
- I know he's, really? You did it?
- A while ago.
- It's like, okay, well that was embarrassing.
- But how did that become the subject right now?
- [Michael] We had a fight over that one.
- [Orna] But we're now imagining a world in which you're not anxious.
- But he's proved himself to be untrustworthy when it comes to doing things.
- I literally let just proved myself to be trustworthy when it comes to doing things.
- [Orna] You're not even doing a thought experiment.
- That's not true. You didn't fix the tub.
- You're not even doing the thought experiment.
- Okay, what?
- [Orna] This is extraordinary.
- What?
- We're in a thought experiment.
- How? Okay.
- Imagine a world-
- I imagine-
- In a world.
- [Orna] So.
- Where you have no anxiety.
- So one thing you're thinking is you would do more,
- [Michael] Right. I would have to do more.
- What else would, how else would things change?
- Okay, well how would my life change.
- He doesn't think about his life, he only thinks about me.
- Right. How would my life change?
- Do you realize that when a lot of the time when you ask him questions he discusses how I would feel.
- Absolutely.
- [Michal] How I would be.
- Right. You think that he does that because I'm so anxious? Like he worries about how I'll feel.
- [Orna] Partially. Yeah.
- Yeah. I think that's fair. Like, when I consider anything that we are doing or that I'm doing, I have to think how is this going to make Michal feel like, like for example, I told you about something that happened at work today.
- Right.
- Right? And before anything happens I said this is something that I will have to reckon with Michal in some way,
- Right.
- It'll be a conversation, or a decision to avoid a conversation or a way to tactfully present this.
- So you have to spend a lot of energy managing Michal's anxiety. But what if your anxiety wasn't the ruling factor?
- I don't know if he's doing that because of my anxiety. I think he's doing that just 'cause he really loves me. He really just wants me to be happy.
- That's exactly what you said about your mother.
- Right.
- Oh, is this a terrarium?
- Yes, it is.
- [Michael] Yes.
- But it's this special terrarium?
- Yes.
- Yo us, anyway.
- [Michael] It's a terrarium full of meaning.
- Oh, oops. Wrong side.
- Yeah, that's my spot.
- Yeah. I'm not used to sitting on that spot.
- Angles are all wrong. You never know what could happen.
- I had to go to a specialty shop to get it, so. Don't take really good care of it. Just, you know.
- Yes, just right.
- Oh, that so sorry.
- Just right. Wow, that's very moving.
- We're glad you like it.
- [Orna] Thank you.
- I really wanted to make sure that we talked about something that happened to us this week. Something happened to him that was anxiety inducing.
- Who got anxious?
- I was anxious.
- He got anxious.
- [Orna] Yeah.
- Which is very rare, right? Because Michael never gets anxious, but, something happened to him, which-
- Well, this might be something to do with a shift in dynamic.
- I was wondering that because I was thinking to myself like, suddenly like I'm pushing everything off onto him and now he's the one with the anxiety.
- Yeah. What was the thing that made you anxious?
- Well, it was at work. It was some feedback with work and it made-
- [Orna] What type of feedback? I mean-
- Feedback that like, I felt like, it was like a negative impression.
- Meaning you got some critical feedback,
- Critical feedback and then like-
- [Orna] What were you anxious about?
- That like, I had to do more than I was doing. That like, I might fail at this.
- Yeah. So something that happened was instead of dealing with it on him on his own, he came and started to talk to me about it. To me it seemed like he was trying to alleviate his anxiety onto me. And then as a result I ended up like very stressed out. So my original solution was just don't tell me about these things. I don't want to know.
- I mean, ideally if we wanted to think about like what's the, like a good template for a couple, it's when there's anxiety for it to be indeed passed back and forth between the two of you so that each of you can take a look at it and give some kind of constructive opinion. And then pass it to the other person, have another opinion, pass it back. When things pass back and forth, they get more and more rational, manageable, and the anxiety ideally then subsides.
- So you don't think you should keep things like that from me?
- No. I don't think that's a fair request.
- [Michal] That's fair enough.
- [ And how are you feeling about our work ending?
- A little anxious, honestly. You know, I've been think about it.
- Why are you anxious about that?
- 'Cause I had my own, it's not like I had, I walked into this like clean and I just walked away. Like there were some issues that I had. I was looking at things the wrong way. I like tried to accept them and move on. But like, there's always the chance of backsliding.
- I'm worried about that.
- You know, and I'm not a fool about it. Like I'm aware that it's a possibility, it might even be a likely possibility, but I don't even want to think about that 'cause like I got to live the rest of my life.
- You know the, my association, my inner world response to the terrarium. The way I'm thinking about this terrarium and the two of you is that many times sitting with you too. When we pushed the anxiety and the fighting away, when it cleared the space, what immediately came to the surface between the two of you is kind of a wonderful land of play and fantasy and joy.
- [Michael] That's true.
- [Michal] Yeah. It's right there.
- I know that's true. We do have a lot of fun with each other. I always told him, he is like my favorite person to hang out with. He's fun, you know? I, yeah.
- It's a fun world.
- Yeah. (somber music)