Transcription
So you you have now gone to Africa to make an investment.
Yes.
And the country in which you've made the investment um decides to expropriate your investment and um to arrest you.
Yes.
Should China So what what should happen there for what what should happen? Should should um China get involved in in um uh getting you out of jail?
Well, China would.
What?
They would try. Yes.
But but wouldn't that be getting involved in some other country's internal affairs?
No. No. Oh.
So, so it's okay for them to come out to help you get out of jail, but if there's a genocide going on in that country, it's they shouldn't get involved.
No, because I'm Chinese. They ought to help me.
But, but as but but for So, so the value of your life is more important than the value of anyone else's life who's not Chinese.
No, I I'm saying my the value of my life, the Chinese government has a responsibility to protect me because I'm Chinese. That's all. And so so being Chinese is but by definition a human being but but somebody who's being killed in a genocide is not.
No, I didn't say that. Being Chinese, all I'm saying is the Chinese government has a responsibility to protect me because that's the contract. That's the contract. That's the deal.
Good evening. My name is Anand Gerard Das. I'm a columnist for the New York Times. Blessing. And I'm very delighted that uh that he asked me to interview Eric Lee who is a friend of mine. And today we're going to talk about what if anything uh the rise of China means for ideas. The world of ideas of values that we talk about here and particularly the world of ideas um that Aspen elevates ideas of democracy, human rights, certain universal values um values that Eric Lee, if I may say, is busily trying to dismantle. Eric has impressed me in our time knowing each other because he's a very daring, bold thinker, even though we disagree on a number of things. Um, and I hope that whether or not you agree, your mind is slightly shaken up or reconfigured uh by the time you leave tonight. And I know for those of you who have been in seminars with Eric, that's already happened.
I want to begin by asking you this. You grew up in China. Uh came to America and at that point your story was very a familiar kind of American dream story. Got worked your way into school here. Uh worked for Ross Perau on his presidential campaign. Uh unsuccessful. Um you thought about going back to China in 1989 to be with the students who were demonstrating. You believed in the system that you found in this country and then somewhere along the way after returning to China you came to the conclusion you you turned about and came to the conclusion that the kind of democracy human rights uh individually driven society was not in fact what China needed. How did you make that turn? What caused it?
Well, um, when I was 18, um, you know, people in this country talk about if you're 18, if you're not a communist, you don't have a heart. And if you're 40, you're still a communist, you don't have a brain. Uh, if if you're Chinese, if you're 18, if you're not a Democrat, you don't have a heart. If you're 40, you're still Democrat. You don't have a brain. Um, Democrat with a small D, of course. Um, and what I've uh come to recogn when I first came to America, all I saw was the freeways and ice creams and the cars and and the beautiful California blondes. Um, but the ideas that made up this country and the West, the the the fundamental ideas of the political system, of the role of the individual, these ideas are fundamentally religious.
Religious.
Religious. That's right. uh religious or ideological. And when you try to transplant religious ideas into other parts of the world that do not have the same religious heritage or cultural traditions, uh they fall flat and they cause much more damage uh than than intended than than the benefits that that were intended.
But if you look at most of the people in this room, many of the people in this room,
many of the people who enjoy the freedoms of the United States are not religious
and many more of them if they are don't derive their democratic theory from religion. So what I don't understand what makes this religious?
Well, it to me it has to be religious because otherwise well let's take one idea uh human rights. So all men are created equal. Well, by whom? Me? You? Peter.
Peter. Eal. From whom? If it's not from a higher authority, then of course these are negotiated rights that could be taken away. So are these rights granted by men or are they from some higher authority? If they're from men, then obviously we don't have any disagreement. But if they're not, then by definition, they are religious.
When you Why have these ideas worked in certain places that are not?
It it it it's
of that same background.
It's worked in the western cultures because they evolved from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Uh the the the men of the enlightenment or highly religious men. uh they came from the tradition of Christianity. Uh it's it's the evolution of the relig of western religious traditions. Uh that these I I think if you go back in history 200 300 years that almost all of the men of the enlightenment would tell you that that the individual was the basic unit of society that had unalienable rights. But those rights came from God. There's nowhere else that those rights could come from. So you broke the feudal layers above people and replaced it with a direct
connection to it has to from has to be from God. And when when you say that China is obviously not part of that tradition
and many many other parts of the world are not part of that tradition.
Does that make you think there will be a delay in democracy coming to those parts of the world or you think for hundred years China will still not be
I I mean democracy I don't know what that is dem democrac that's another idea that I have problem with that you know I run into
you're not surprised. I I run into people in this country and and in in in in the western world at large who who happen somehow think the democracy in in itself. So again it's a religious approach. It doesn't matter whether the garbage is taken out you got to vote. So democracy is not a political system to them. It's not a political system that's supposed to deliver something. It's an end just in itself. So, you know, it doesn't matter whether it work. So, to us, I mean, I I don't think the Chinese are are adverse to democratic governments. Uh, but if they don't work, you ditch them.
But yes or no, do you expect China to be a democracy in 100 years?
No.
One of the things you first said to me when we when we met was that you think China's rise is has been misconstrued that it's not principally an economic challenge to the west it's a moral challenge.
Yes.
Now when we read about the arrest of Iwwayi weigh and other writers and artists uh the persecution of many writers and artists who often are people who did nothing more than organize people against quite manifest injustices. We understand perhaps the economic challenge but the idea of a moral challenge coming from a country that does those things seems uh almost comic to some people. How can you argue that it's a more what ch what does China have to teach anybody morally?
Well, just for full disclosure, um I had been advocating the arrest of Iwwayi for some time uh for a couple of years and I was happy they finally did it and I'm somewhat upset they let him out. I think this man belongs in jail. Uh he has clearly broken the law. Uh they got him on some tax situation which I'm not so sure of. Yeah, I think that's uh but but clearly in China political speech is restricted. It's these are laws on the book. There's a law called anti-subversion law. You cannot you cannot speak to organize against the government. That's what the law says.
You think that's a a good law
for China?
Yes.
Why?
I think China needs for the next 10 20 several generations uh needs social and political stability. Uh especially in the internet age when you have political speeches that are amplified beyond their the effects beyond the their effects in societ their the effects they should have in society uh cause instability.
Why did you why did you specifically petition for his arrest?
I didn't petition for it. I've been speaking for it. I think I think the record is clear that it's public record. He's been sending out these Twitters. He's been writing uh he's been calling for the organization of different parts of society against to overthrow the Chinese government.
Isn't he doing nothing different from what you're doing sitting here views that may be controversial to other people protected by
I I am if if the American law says it's not loud, I wouldn't be speaking it. I would respect that those laws. I mean I I think people ought to respect the laws wherever whatever comes
and there's no higher law.
I don't know. Is there if if there is then we we're back to the religious idea.
You recently gave a speech in Paris in which you tried to distinguish between something you call modernism with a capital M.
Yes.
And modernization as a process.
Right.
Um
can you explain what the difference between these two things?
Um well I think to the Chinese modernization simply means material advancement. Um so technologies, roads, uh lifting people out of poverty. U modernism I think is essentially an ideology and I call it religion in that speech and modernism or modernity composes of three ideas fundamental ideas. One, liberal democracy is the perfect form of government. Two, the individual is the basic unit of society with unalienable rights endowed by a higher power. And three, capitalism is the most only viable economic system. And these three ideas form this religion called modernity or modernism with a big M.
Would you agree that however culturally specific those are in origin, they have been more successful uh in more parts of the world than any other constellation of ideas?
I I think that's a questionable proposition. Um I think modern modernism has certainly delivered enormous prosperity and advancement for western cultures, western countries. I think modernism with a few notable exceptions has failed to deliver any benefit for cultures outside the western civilization. Uh with a few exceptions. Um if you look at all the continents around the world that have adopted what are fundamentally western values that were sold as universal values and has subjugated their cultures in order to reach the paradise of modernization through modernism. Uh I don't see a whole lot of successful cases a few but vast majority of them have been failures.
Look at India.
Yes.
Recently.
Yes.
Brazil.
I I would say Brazil Brazil is a you know Brazil I think is is is offshoot of western civilization in South America I would characterize that as an extension of western civilization.
What I wanted to ask you about the concept of freedom.
Yes.
I was struck when when when we met in China last year. I interviewed 30 40 people over the course of a month and at one level I was struck that no one was the only place I've been in the world where nobody asked for me to turn off my tape recorder once. Everybody allowed me to use their name. You know that was surprising. So there there's a certain liberty to discuss that was surprising to me as a journalist. Um, but at another level as you say all any kind of political activity that reaches a certain threshold is unacceptable and can land you in jail. What what is the state of freedom in China? What freedoms are allowed? What freedoms are not allowed? How do you draw the line today?
I think a Chinese person enjoys as wide if not wider a range of personal liberties than anyone in any western society.
What do you mean personal liberties? where you where to live, where to work, who to marry, what you want to say um in including a lot of political speech, but the threshold is organization. So if you organize against the ruling authority, then the punishments is severe. So you have a you have a wide range of liberties, but a sliver of a sliver where where you're not allowed that liberty, where punishment is severe.
I guess my question is a lot of countries in the world seem to have tried this seem to have tried just allowing people commercial freedom just allowing the freedom to trade
and the direction and not just in the west seems to be once you give people certain kinds of freedom people don't tend to draw very neat lines and and feel comfortable with not getting the rest people tend to want it all
speaking out against your boss and speaking out against your president involve the same human character character. Why do you think China is different that people will will magically in China not want the same things that they've seemed to want almost everywhere else in the world?
Well, I'm not sure whether it's a case of whether people want it. Um, I don't think people should have whatever they want. I don't think it's not a matter of what people would end up wanting. It's a matter of how what are the what should be the fundamental organizing principles of a particular society
and what are the fundamental organizing principles of this new China.
Well, we don't know yet. That's the question mark. So, I think the Chinese story is in its formative stage. We know what it's not. It's not western. It's not modern. Uh, it's not modernism, but we don't yet know what it is for. Um
What are some of the emerging if if you were to draw them out? What are some of the emerging principles you see? As you as as you say, it's a moral challenge. A moral challenge has to have
pillars the way the Aspen Institute has pillars. What are your version of of the Aspen pillars?
My my version of the Aspen pillar are the the the version of modernity that I that we talked about.
No, no, no. Your the Chinese answer
that the Chinese answers I like I said they're they're being they're in the formative stage. Uh, but I think certainly uh the role of the individual is different. I think the individual is part of the polity is a part of a collective. Uh, the individual does not supersede the polity. Um, so that that mean I think that's that's one pillar.
Uh second uh the government the the government is not a separate from society.
What does that mean?
So so-called civil society there's no such thing as civil society because civil society is defined as something apart from official society. Um, so I think what's coming what will come out of China will be a holistic society where government is part of society uh and plays a demand commanding role in society. So there's not going to be an independent civil society and and of course capitalism um I think Chinese China is not capitalism. Um, the Chinese success so far economic success have been based on very successful effective use of capital but it's not capitalism.
But isn't what you do as a venture capitalist capitalism?
It's it's capital. It's capitalistic, but it's not capitalism.
What's the difference?
Capitalism means the interest of capital supersede the interest of the polity. Uh
Can you give me an example in the west and how it's different in China?
Well, I think I see it everywhere in the west where you know you see Wall Street, you see the financial powers that their interests almost supersede the American nation state. Um, it's the one thing everybody may agree with you, right?
Uh, I want to talk a bit about Africa. You do a lot of business in Africa. Uh, I recently found out something you may not know about Eric. Uh, which is that Eric has been designated by a certain king, a chief of five villages in Ghana. U so although he does not look it he is an African chief. Um I wanted to ask you about the controversies about China's involvement in Africa which I know you spoke to a a subset of this group today.
Um you were very open about the fact that there are zero values involved in China's relationship with Africa. Setting aside whether the west was successful or not successful,
is it right for a powerful country like China, a country that will be even more powerful to approach a fragile place like Africa with no values?
Well, I think the question is, is it is it right to approach it with any kind of values? They're yours and not theirs. Um, I think the Chinese relationship with Africa is purely 100% a commercial one. There's no pretense of charity. Um, it's it the Chinese are there to do business to get what they want for the Chinese people and I think it's entirely up to the African peoples and countries to determine what's best for them and they have the perfect right and power to design how they want to structure the relationship and I think the the Chinese will will play their games.
Why does it make you or not you but the the Chinese who do business in Africa in general so uncomfortable to talk about values not not western value but why not why not
have your own values I
I I don't think the Chinese want to go to other countries and tell them how how they should run their countries um and and
what about having values that simply guide your own conduct in Africa not telling anybody else to be but deciding what kinds of states you'll deal with what kind what kind of Africa Africa you'd like to be a part of if you want if you say you want to be a partner for the next 50 years.
I think it's up to the Africans to determine what's best for their cultures. I think uh the I mean I think we we are we p we're we're past the the phase in the world what what I call ideological phase. I think we're entering a new phase in the world where cultures will dominate and and what we want are cultures to assert themselves and cultures to develop organically. Um instead of us or chi the Chinese or anybody going to any other country and say this is right and this is wrong.
So I understand that when it comes to saying you won't dictate term you won't say we'll deal with this country because of this political system or that because of that. Let's take a a very different case which is
when situations like genocide happen.
When injustices of any number of varieties happen,
the Chinese posture is very much like what you just described. It's non-intervention,
right?
Non-intervention is a fine policy when you're the fifth most powerful country in the world, the 10th most powerful country in the world. According to Shaun's circle, uh, China is emerging as the as a superpower. What is going to happen to questions of genocide to manifest injustices in the world which the Western powers for all of their faults spend a lot of energy thinking about and intervening on behalf of sometimes well, sometimes not well. But does it not scare you to have the most powerful country in the world possibly in the future have absolutely nothing to say about a lot of the bad things that happen in the world?
I think the good things and bad things ought to be allowed to take their course and to play out. Um, it will be like can you imagine in 1865 you know Robert E. Lee and Gran are getting ready to fight their decisive battle and some United Nations envoy shows up and say ceasefire. What's that going to happen? I mean I I think I mean I think it's we ought to hold back. Remember how powerful you are. We ought to hold back and let the world let the peoples of the world determine their own destinies.
If there was a genocide in progress, an extreme genocide, China should not, in your opinion, get involved, even if the facts were clear, something easily could be done.
No.
Do you know I mean, do you have a sense of how that comes across to countries outside China?
I I do.
I
perhaps even this room.
I I do. I do. But I think it's a tough decision. I think
what what kind of world does that lead to then?
I think is that's I think that's how the world has developed to to this day isn't we're here we're we're all here I mean up until the the the enlightenment that's how the the world has developed in the middle you know middle ages throughout thousands of years the world has been running without a set of universal principles
and it's going to return to that if I I think so.
A lot of people, young people in China said to me, people not of your viewpoint, people more of a of a liberal viewpoint,
said to me that even for them, their definition of the liberalism they'd like to see in China has much more to do with the rule of law and accountability and honesty and transparency than the act of voting,
right?
Can you explain, this is again not your view necessarily, but the view of large numbers of young people in China. Why is why do you suspect their emphasis is in that camp rather than the other?
Well, I think it's deep in Chinese tradition that the the ruler ought to have the consent of the rude. Um and and that that's a deeply held confusion value. Um so, but you know what is consent? I mean that that's the question. Um so does on a certain day, rain or shine, a bunch of people show up and check boxes, does that mean consent? It does here.
I I know it does here. Uh, but you know if you look at we don't have elections. Uh, but if you look at all the data in the last been collected in the last 20 years by Pew or Gallup uh the Chinese government the Chinese ruling regime has had in the 60 70 80% popular support year after year. is probably a government that enjoys the deepest, widest, and most sustained popular support among the highest.
Aren't aren't people just afraid of going jail if they tell Gallup the wrong thing?
No, no, no. The Gallup Pew does
they're going to become like I way.
No, no, no, no. I don't think so. Pew does a reasonable has very good methodology. Um, and it's all these these are good polls. Um, and
so what is that consent built on? the consent is built on their
why do they support a government they don't choose most people that doesn't work in most places
I don't know I think it's worked for most people most of the time in human history it hasn't worked for a small group of people for a very short period of time in the last 300 years
I wanted to ask you switch gears a bit and ask you about um on the cultural side in China one of the things that that you notice This is u a certain I remember you got a watch from one of your associates of the Shanghai watch as a gift and a lot of these old communist products
uh feu shoes and some of these other things coming back into vogue and a young generation removed from those earlier struggles from the cultural revolution etc. almost having a nostalgia for
communist China
and the communist phase. Does that disturb you?
No.
Why is that happening?
Well, it's happening because it's a part of I think it's it has you know there's a big movement in the last year or two. It's called seeing red, you know, so it's very popular. People are seeing red songs. Um I think it's all healthy. I think it's you know the I think the communist revolution has done you know in 60 years ago the country was rap you just in deep trouble. It's famine everywhere. Life expectancy was a 45 or or even lower. Uh foreign aggressions, poverty. Um and in 60 years, look at what they've done.
By the way, be performing some red songs after [laughter]
after this gathering.
I mean, I'm not a communist, you know, but but I think they've done a great
You have friends who are.
Yeah, I have friends who are and and and you know I am a venture capitalist and I won't fire a CEO like that.
I wanted to switch gears a little bit before we open up to questions. Start getting your questions ready. I'm [snorts] I'm sure that won't be a problem soliciting reaction. Uh, I'll be hiding under the stage. Um, I was struck by something that John Huntsman,
Yes,
the former US ambassador to China, now a Republican candidate for president, the only one who seems to be uh not out of his mind on a number of issues. Um, he was talking to the Wall Street Journal the other day and he said something about his philosophy of governance that sounded to me like he drunk a bit of the Chinese Kool-Aid. And here's what he said. He said he said I'm not quoting directly but he said what I want to do is be a pragmatic problem solver that instead of rolling out big policies across the country tests things out in a few places measures them and then rolls them out and this is exactly the language you hear when people in China describe the Chinese government's policym approach. Do you suspect that he has learned something uh from the Chinese that he wants to bring back to the US? And if you if you say yes, you'll end his presidential chances tonight. [laughter] So, so be so be cautious.
I know John Huntsman. I've met him on a number of occasions when he was ambassador. Um, I think he's he's a good man. Oops. [laughter] But um you you're I think John is a very pragmatic man. Um and and I think that that's how the Chinese run their country. Uh, the communists run the country. It's called crossing the river by touching the feeling stones beneath you. Uh, so it's the opposite to an ideological approach. The ideological approach says you have an abstract model. What should work? What should not? What's right? What's wrong? And you go from there. the nonological the pragmatic model means that you try this if it if it works you do a little bit more if it doesn't you change.
I wanted to ask you about the something that's very much on people's minds in the US right now, which is this August debt sealing deadline
and the and the very real possibility uh that although the Republicans and Democrats have learned to play golf together, they're unable to
do anything else and that the US could default. What would that mean for China and how do you interpret the larger inability of Washington to kind of function on an issue of such urgency?
I I I I hope they come together. I mean that there's just a lot of money involved. [laughter]
You're right. You're not a communist.
Yeah. And and what you know what's happened in the last 20 30 years essentially is the Chinese are working their butt off earning very little money and and lending whatever they earn back to the US so could they could buy their products but in the process we built up an industrial infrastructure and that's what we got out of it. Um, so so even I think to me I think they've it's already been a profitable transaction.
Final question for me before we go to the audience. One of the things that came up again and again in a lot of the seminars that we were all part of and I was part of uh this week is a certain questioning about what is the exact nature of this moment that America is in the middle of. Is this just it's obviously a bad moment but is it a fiveyear bad moment, a kind of 50-year bad moment or a 500y year bad moment? What I mean by that is is this just a recession? Is this a kind of return to a slightly lower level of prosperity in which uh kind of end the end of the postworld war II era or is this a much deeper decline of western powers you say and you have a lot of people in this country speculating on all three of those levels as you look at the American situation the political situation the situation of the economy what's happening to the middle class
how do you interpret it
I You know, weak America would not be very good for China either. A certain level of weakness would, but a profound level of weakness probably would not. How do you interpret where America's headed?
I
I I mean I see I spent I lived in America for nine years. Um and and I love Americans. I love this country. Um, but I what I see the problem in America with the rise of the rest or with with the Chinese phenomena is that globalization that's happened in the last 20 years in this country. Somehow the political systems in this country has allowed globalization to benefit to bring enormous benefit to a very very small group of people on at the top. for example, the people in this room.
Yeah, some of them um and the elites and the and the vast majority of the people have not been benefit have not benefited and and in in in many ways have been their interests have been damaged. Um, so so we we're going to have we I see this is this increasing disparity between the top where they are making a lot of money out of running the world, running this financial infrastructure that covers the globe. Um, and the interest of capital is supersedes the interest of the nation state of the American polity and they jobs moving overseas. So they they don't really care but the middle class is hurting. Uh, and that's where I see that the big issue is in America.
All right. Now anybody who cares about democracy or human rights can stand up and and ask Eric a question. What? And by the way this Daily, I'm wearing this Nigerian shirt for you. We made a deal.
Uh, Lean, I just want to uh explore a little bit your concept of the law
um in relation to highway. I think is when you mentioned that uh you were particularly uh angry at him because he had an obligation to obey the law. So, one, you do not believe in the concept of an unjust law. which was the basis of my bringing Cuban cigars into the United States.
Um [laughter]
uh but but but seriously um when I lived in China in the mid to late 90s in Beijing, um a a particular phrase that stuck in my mind was the idea of the 150 years of humiliation by which Chinese men uh starting with the opium war and the colonization of the coastal cities, you know, the Germans, the Americans, the Brits, the French and so on. And of course, they had laws that they imposed on the Chinese. So those laws in your view should have been obeyed by the coolies and the bureaucrats or whoever the laws were imposed upon. Would this be a correct characterization of your views uh of justice and of the law?
Well, I think I should have obeyed that particular law and and I believe that particular law is just I
I'm sorry I didn't quite uh understand.
What I said was I I think I think the answers are yes and yes. Think I think I should have should obey that particular law and I think that particular law is just
and the Chinese during the period the 150 years of humiliation should have obeyed that law in which case the Chinese are completely wrong in regarding that period as a period of the oppression of Chinese people.
Well, because they thought those laws were not just.
Oh, so how do you choose which laws are just? I mean I way believes the laws that he disobeyed are not just. And I believe it is just
in in that case. This is uh kind of thing that where you pick and choose which laws uh just like me, right? You choose which laws to obey.
I I mean I I think that if that's your personal choice, of course, but if you choose to disobey a law, you ought to be held accountable to it. You should be willing to pay the price.
Do you believe there is any law in China that is worthy of disobeying?
Um not at the moment. No.
Okay. Thank you. I love guys who are
maybe tax laws.
Just wait for the microphone.
Sorry. As a venture investor, how would you react if you had made a large investment in a company that the Chinese government then decided was not in the best interest of the company and just basically wanted to shut it down? How would you handle that type of situation?
that that's the risk you have to take in a country in a place where capital is does not supersede the polity. U you know unilver was ordered not to raise prices two months ago
because you would walk away from that investment. I'm just asking how I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer. I'm just asking if you had invested money in that company.
Walk away. Yes.
You would walk away.
Yeah. Well, you got to work your way and see if you can save it. Of course, but if if if you fail, you have to walk away. Yeah. Well, why would you work towards it? If the if the government decided we want to shut down this company, you should accept the fact that the government wants to shut down the company.
Yes, but it's a consultative process. So, it's not it's not like somebody makes a decision and shut it down.
Jack,
yes.
I have to admire your um guts to stand up here and say some of this stuff. Um [clears throat]
eggs eggs are okay, but rotten tomatoes off limit. You know, I um uh it's all great to to say these things when they don't apply to you.
Yes.
Um [clears throat] I'm just wondering what would you do um if your father was arrested in China because some corrupt official um I don't know what your father does, so I'm just making up a hypothetical. But your but your father, not anyone else's father, but your father was arrested because he got in the way of some corrupt officials activities and he was being tortured in a Chinese jail. What would you do?
My father was arrested and he was in prison for eight years
for for what?
For was a political prisoner.
And was that a good thing that they did?
Uh no.
So So you so you're disagreeing with the regime?
I I disagree with the regime all the time. So it was it was a bad policy and a bad thing that they did. Yes. So your father
was the law wrong that under under was was a law
well it was during a revolutionary period. So so it was you know was problematic. Um, but
a lot of things are problematic but what I don't understand yeah it's just like saying it will be like saying that I believe taxes too high or or tax is too low you should raise taxes. But that that doesn't mean that I shouldn't maximize my tax benefits, right? I mean the individual's interest, the individual's position sometimes are inconsistent with what the individual thinks what's right for the society.
Okay. So let's take this abroad now. Um
Yeah.
So you you have now gone to Africa to make an investment.
Yes.
And the country in which you've made the investment um decides to expropriate your investment and um to arrest you. Yes.
Should China So what what should happen there for what what should happen? Should should um China get involved in in um uh getting you out of jail?
Well, China would.
What?
They would try. Yes.
But but wouldn't that be getting involved in some other country's internal affairs?
No. No. I
So, so it's okay for them to come out to help you get out of jail, but if there's a genocide going on in that country, it's they shouldn't get involved.
No, because I'm Chinese. They ought to help me. But but as but but but for So, so the value of your life is more important than the value of anyone else's life who's not Chinese.
No, I I'm saying my the value of my life the Chinese government has a responsibility to protect me because I'm Chinese. That's all.
And so so being Chinese is but by definition a human being but but somebody who's being killed in a genocide is not.
No, I didn't say that. Being Chinese, all I'm saying is the Chinese government has a responsibility to protect me because that's the contract. That's the contract. That's the deal. [clears throat]
Why don't we move on to more questions in the black dress?
Chief Eric, [laughter] welcome to round two.
It's it's Nanaqame Adam
indeed. Um we have two two questions for you. First of all, as as fellows, I think a lot of what we're trying to understand is who should make the laws, the government or the people? And a lot of what you explained today seems to be a little bit on the fence. And we obviously spoke about it in our last seminar. That's question one. Um, who should make the laws, the government or the people? Uh, the second question I'd like to ask you is a personal question as a a venture capitalist. Um, it seems as though your principles in investing are very capitalist, but you're still a Chinese national and that's going to continue and grow. We hope to see many more folks like yourself. But those conflicts mix as we've heard by many of your comments tonight. Help us understand how you can be a capitalist in some degree. You you stopped short of saying, "Yes, I want to generate capital, but still be a national." And I they kind of the both questions intertwine but help us understand both please.
Um well uh your first question I I think whether the people or the government should make the law I think it's an organic process. First I don't think government is apart from the people. Uh so so I think the the the cultural concept the cultural entity ought to make the law. So whatever whatever the cultural traditions of the place will play a role in how laws are made. Um, so in in the Anglo-Saxon tradition, middle class people who make people make the laws, but in other traditions may not be be the case. Um, and your second question, of course, I'm I'm a capitalist. I'm a venture capitalist. Um, but again, but again, you know, I think that the interests of the policy supersede the interest of the c interest of capital.
We got to skip,
Eric. So, so Eric, um, [clears throat] you've been through four seminars at Aspen, right?
Yes.
Um, what impact has it made on you?
What What impact has those seminars made on you besides the fact that you decided not to homeschool your daughter?
Well, I I mean, I think the impacts it made on me is that I think different cultures, they're fundamentally different, hold fundamentally different values. can interact peacefully and can seek to understand each other, which is my hope.
Yes, sir. Eric, um I want first I want to congratulate you for just being honest with the room because I I think that's [applause] and I would say as somebody from the Liberty Fellowship from the deep south that that I agree with you with the the Judeo-Christian underpinnings of modern democracy. think that your intellectual argument is correct except that it almost slipped by me um because you said there's it's a negotiated agreement between the people and the government and then you threw out an ideology on me called Confucianism and that said that the people have to consent to be governed and and we both know that that's not where that actually ends in in the Chinese world. So is there actually some ideology that you have to follow because it sounds to me like as much as we're downplaying it there is. If so, what does that portend for the future of Chinese government?
Yes, I think I wouldn't characterize that as an ideology. Uh it is a confusion value. It's a trai confusion tradition that the ruler ought to have the consent of the ruled over sustained period. Um and I think that's played out in Chinese history when rulers no longer have the consent of the rule. They they been overthrown. That's how dynasties come and go. Um and I think in the current environment the ruler has tremendous and deep consent of the rude. Uh so I think in the foreseeable future the political system will be very stable. But if they lose the consent of the rude I think they will be in trouble.
Share the view that you're very brave to be up there. Um, and I think the one thing that there was maybe some consensus on here tonight was your definition of um, capitalism and also when you said that globalization has only benefited 1% of the population. Um, but I want to move away from the ideologies and perhaps get to the values because what I think there's a lot of values involved and let's take for example that I'm a fisherman on the Maritanian coast and there are only 100 fish in the sea. And the Moritanian government is corrupt. So I don't think it necessarily is a government for the people. And this is not necessarily about standing passively by that government has just given China a 25 year fishing license. Um already as the fishermen on that coast who I visited, there are barely any fish left. and the European trollers have done the same. But I know in the case of Europe, we have some redress in terms of the European Parliament and lobbying in Europe. And I think for me that's not it's not a passive act. It's it's an active act. And I think equally African countries in the case of genocide have actually been supplied arms and those governments have asked for arms. It's also not a passive act. So I'm just I mean even staying away from the ideologies I mean if there are 100 fish do those fish need to go to China and it obviously is to China's benefit that the African governments are corrupt and I think one thing you said tonight is very valid. The African government should be saying no and is it your job to make them say no and I take that point well
um but they're people
why don't we that's a great question. Why don't we answer we have to move on. I I think it we ought to hesitate before we think we can make judgments about what's good or bad for other cultures and other peoples. And I think we ought to leave it to them to develop organically to figure out what's best for them. Um, and yes it may involve a lot of pain in the process but I think the risk is much greater when an outside power try to make judgments and determine what they think is right or wrong for another people and I think any power they a Chinese or whoever they they have the right to do what they think is best for their own people. I think we have time for one more question. I'm happy to go on if but I think we have
this isn't um s so much of a question as it is an important comment. I'd like to ask even beg that the characterization of Africa as dysfunctional and fragile does not belong in an august body like the Aspen Global Leadership Network. We totally resent that and it needs to stop. Now, I'd like to add that in that regard, the Chinese show more respect to Africa than the West does and has, and that's part of the reason why African governments find it even compelling in many cases to do business with the Chinese. I will speak also as a Ghanaian specifically. Ghana has a responsible, elected, represented government that makes clear choices to do business with the Chinese when we choose to and with our other African neighbors and with Western neighbors. I think it's important that this is brought to bear. Um, in a country like Ghana, we have chosen the systems that we've evolved from. We've written our constitution. We've rewritten it and we're developing different amendments to it that suit our specific people, our culture and our circumstances. I think it's important that these things come out.
Sir, we have we have a lot of people want to ask questions.
Can you ask a short sentence question to Eric? >> Where the question comes out of this is actually on the comment you made earlier about cultures working together. Um, can you share China's um position in getting Chinese ideas out to be accepted in different parts of the world? How does China intend to do that? Because that's actually one of Africa's most difficult problems, getting our culture, getting our norms to be heard and accepted by other countries. Thank you.
>> Um, I think that the Chinese ideas are not exportable. And if there any idea that's exportable, it's that idea that that the Chinese model is not exportable, neither is any other model. Uh, I think the fundamental idea that can be exported is that African countries, I, I, I've been going to Africa for many years. I, I love the continent. I really wish Africa well. Um, I think African countries and African peoples should follow their own paths and and find something like you said that works within their own cultural tradition.
>> So, we got, we got a bit of an extension. So, a few more questions. Omar.
>> Omar. Hi, Eric. Um, first off, I, I, I, I want to say on behalf of the 12 nights, we still love you. [laughter]
>> Um,
>> but a little less. [laughter] So, I'm, I'm kind of a radical civil libertarian and and and you know that we disagree on many of these commitments to human rights and to freedom and and and to democracy, but I've also learned a lot from you about the value of order and you've really challenged my thinking about the importance of order in a society and and I also know as Anan mentioned that you have learned a lot from America.
>> Yes. You were a student and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about what you've learned from America.
>> I think what I've learned from America is the individual needs to be allowed room to develop. Um, you know, I came from a very traditional Chinese family, you study, there's a particular path uh to develop yourself and it's, it's sometimes stifling. Um, so I think the Chinese cultures have a lot to learn from from western, from American cultures where the individual is allowed more room to develop their unique characters instead of one set way of becoming a useful member of society.
>> How did that happen? Tell us a little bit about how that
>> I see it. I mean, I went to Berkeley for [laughter]
>> this is, this is being live-streamed, so he meant for heck's sake.
>> Tell, tell us a little bit of a story. How did that evolution as a human being? How did that happen for you?
>> I'm, you know, I, I, I tell you the truth. I was a trouble kid when I was growing up in China. I, I did okay, but, but I always resented this uh overbearing lot of family and, you know, you got to, this is, this is seven things you have to do um and when I came to America, I felt great. I felt so free. I was able to develop things that I didn't think I was able to develop um, like writing, you know.
>> Jamie.
>> Thank you, Eric. Uh, I agree with you that the both the people and the government of China deserve enormous credit for the rise of China over these last 30, 40 or however many uh many years and certainly uh all of us in this room and people around the world have a lot to learn from China, not only about uh hard work, but about communal values and even communal responsibility. Having said that, China didn't rise in and of itself. It rose within an international context and an international context that was in many ways established with the lead of the United States and with countries around the world that was realized through the UN, through the Bretton Woods uh institutions and there very much was a, a, a values uh underpinning of that system and part of that is a recognition that absolute sovereignty is part of the problem. Part of that is recognizing that the world is interconnected and that problems elsewhere, whether it's in Europe or the United States coming to the aid of China in the Second World War, many other places, that these problems are, are deeply interconnected and if we don't think of them in that way, we build a world that is extremely uh dangerous and as I said, China's benefited.
>> Go straight to the question. Say so because China has has risen in that system, it seems now if you're saying that China doesn't have a uh a moral value or a moral responsibility to to export to the world, it seems that it puts that system that has allowed China to rise, that creates the opportunity for other countries to rise, enormously at risk. And so it seems to me China has three options. One is accept the system as it exists and work to support it. Two, to say we accept it and but there are these issues that need to be improved. Or three, to say we have a better uh vision of a broader good for everybody. Here's what it is and then we can have a discussion about that. But not doing any of those, as Anan said, it opens up a really dangerous possibility that China rises so rapidly without any kind of moral value, it breaks the system that allowed China to rise and doesn't allow anything to emerge in that place. Would you respond to that?
>> I, I totally agree. I think that's the risk that we all face. That's the underlying big risk for our world in the next couple of generations where you essentially have an incumbent order, an incumbent ideology that claims universality. So it has a singular vision for the future of all of mankind. Is exclusive and then you have, it doesn't allow pluralities. And then you have an ascendant sort of alternative yet is too afraid to tell its story, too afraid to come out and say this is what we're for, who has been exploiting the system to its own benefit, to its maximum benefit, but yet faced with really an overwhelming intolerance, I think, of the of the incumbent ideology. The incumbent ideology is extraordinarily intolerant because the universality, because the the existing Western ideology is a universal ideology. It makes universal claims, says everyone in the world has to subscribe to this moral code. Uh, which is, which is very powerful, but, but it makes any kind of ascendant ideas difficult to emerge.
>> So that's the underlying risk.
>> Our final question.
>> So actually, that's a nice segue to my question. Uh, Western society and America itself has this notion of uh American exceptionalism, Western exceptionalism and oftentimes it's u mixed up in this whole notion of superiority, but definitely universality.
>> Right.
>> What is, does the Ch, do the Chinese have a notion of exceptionalism and when you keep talking about the polity, uh, what is the view, the Chinese's own view of that polity, especially when it comes into conflict with the priorities of other polities?
>> Um, I think that the Chinese do have a version of exceptionalism, except that it's the opposite kind of exceptionalism. The Western exceptionalism is about that exceptionalism to be universalized. The Chinese exceptionalism is about each culture is unique. So they ought to be allowed to develop on their in their own ways. So to me, I, I call it two versions of globalization. So the Western version globalization is based on universality or singularity. The word universal means one. And the Chinese version, I think Chinese hope for uni, for globalization is a globalization based on pluralities. So there may be plural ideas on how on the organizing principles of human affairs and and different cultures ought to be allowed to organize themselves differently.
>> Yes. And when they come into conflict, we have conflicts like we've had conflicts throughout human history. We have to, if we have good luck, we manage them. If we have bad luck, we have to fight it out.
>> They don't, they don't. I mean, they, they are. We always have a big problem when you have a nation-state that has a dominant culture and have sub-small minority ethnic ethnic cultures. That's not unique to China. It's, it's happened throughout tragedies have happened throughout human history. Tragedies, I mean, in this country, I don't have to mention, I mean, when the Europeans showed up, there were about 23 million Native Americans and today there are 800,000. And when the Chinese showed up in Tibet, I think the population was, I don't remember how many million, now since has doubled. Uh, so what's a genocide? Who's genociding whom? But so there are different ways of looking at things. I'm not saying, I'm not accusing anybody of genocide here. I'm, I'm just saying it's, it's, it's, it's always, it's been a tragedy that's accompanied mankind throughout throughout the existence of our species that you, when you have a polity within the polity, you have a dominant culture and you have minority ethnic cultures and these cultures get trampled upon and I don't think that problem has been solved.
>> Well, I, I have to conclude and say that this is, these are obviously uh conversations without end. Uh, there are very few places in the world um where you can sit and say many of the things you have and be listened to respectfully. Very few places where people being served free-flowing wine uh agree to talk about human rights at 10 o'clock at night. Uh, and it was an honor to do this and thank you all for your attention and your questions. [applause] Thank you. Good. Wait, wait. Everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. Fore! Foreign! Foreign! Fore.