Transcription
We're facing perilous economic times right now. Obviously, gas prices are $4 a gallon. People are talking about the issue of affordability. An increasing number of people are talking about the widening wealth gap in this country between the haves and the have-nots. The question is, does capitalism actually work for non-rich people?
Well, John Hope Bryant, founder of Operation Hope, says that, guess what? There is a thing called capitalism for all. This is a copy of his new book, uh, titled that. Uh, and he joins us right now. All right, John, glad to have you here.
Um, it's interesting 'cause just the other day, um, there was this conversation that was taking place on Joe Button's podcast. And they were having this discussion regarding Jay-Z and capitalism, and Marc Lamont Hill was talking about that. He made the point that he has, he doesn't believe that, um, that there should be billionaires. Other people have said that when you have billionaires in this country, uh, that means that other people have suffered in order for them to get to that point. Uh, we see this wealth gap in this country. Uh, an increasing amount of this nation's wealth is in the hands of not even the top 1%, but the top, you know, point 01%. Uh, and so, but you make the case, capitalism for all. Explain.
Uh, honored to be with you, Roland. Um, look, Lamont Hill's not wrong. Uh, capitalism and democracy are horrible systems, except for every other system. I've been to a hundred countries, man. Um, and there is no perfect. It's, it's screwed up all around the world, or there is screwed up all around the world. But, I couldn't have gone from Compton, California in South Central Los Angeles, and Marc Lamont Hill couldn't have gone from wherever he came from, and Button also, to be one of the top podcasts in the world with a multi-million dollar valuation, and he's getting a salary from that, by the way, which is capitalism. Um, and everybody watching them were able to watch it because they can afford to pay their phone bill, which is capitalism, and they're in their car listening to it, which is capitalism, and they're at home, you know, with the utilities all working, which is capitalism, and they're going, you're going to the nail salon, and that's capitalism. They're not doing your nails for free. And you're going to the gas station, which is these high gas prices, and that's owned by a local, uh, small business owner in your neighborhood, in, in many cases, and that's capitalism. And, you know, the liquor store, and I mean, the drug dealer, that's capitalism. That's, that's bad capitalism. But, it's from the bottom to the top, the, you know, wherever. If your day's not about God, I love you. Day's about money. So, I think we, one, we, we need to stop the wrong discussion and start the right one. Let's stop wasting our time arguing about stupid stuff. Even if you just work for somebody, you're using your human capital and trading that for a paycheck. Uh, and that is 'cause you're not doing it for free. Um, and I was, I was able to come from, from Compton, California, South Central LA, into to wherever I am today, uh, with a crane behind me that I'm a part owner in. I'm at the Hotel Phoenix here in Atlanta, Centennial Yards, a new downtown, new $5 billion downtown for Atlanta, CIM Group, that a bunch of black investors helped to stand up along with the Ressler family and CIM Group. That's, and the 30% of the of the workers here in the contracts are people who look like us by mandate. Well, that's black capitalism, Atlanta. My wife calls, uh, Wakanda. Uh, that's $580 billion a year. That's, that's black capitalism. So, the system is screwed up. Um, and there's, and we're out of balance. Bad capitalism is where I benefit and you pay a price for it. Slavery, human trafficking, drugs, murder, and mayhem. There's all kind of, you know, subprime mortgages in 2008 by Wall Street.
And there's good capitalism where I benefit and you benefit more. I think your show is good capitalism. Can't do this show without revenue. Can't do, uh, the Breakfast Club without revenue. We'll be on there tomorrow. You can't do, you, you can't get a job. People listening to this can't get a job or have a business where people are giving, coming in as customers in our neighborhoods without capitalism and free enterprise. People say, Roland, I hate rich people. No, you don't. You hate rich people until you become rich. What you hate is a gamed system. What you hate is a system that no matter how hard I work, that you work, you can't seem to get ahead. You got two jobs and three contracts and two side gigs, and you look at some, some half-wit on TV on Wall Street that's lazy, shiftless, and uneducated or untalented, and they're a millionaire or billionaire, and you go, "Okay, this system is wrong." Okay, we can get with that. Let's un-game the system. You, you, you would, you know, Rockefeller wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But, without him, you wouldn't have libraries. You wouldn't have Spelman College here because I believe his wife is named after, is named after his wife, his wife or his sister. They put the money up for that. I mean, we can go on and on and on. Even if you want to distribute money like a socialist, you got to first collect it like a capitalist. My problem is we're not involved in the system at all. And if you won't, you don't mind me saying this, the first time I'm saying it on broadcast, anything, I'd like to make a provocative statement on your broadcast, if that's okay, Roland, about the state of us. Is that okay?
Yeah, go ahead.
We're in trouble in a way that we don't understand. We think we've made it. Second reconstruction, first reconstruction, slavery. First, second reconstruction, freedom. Second reconstruction, access, civil rights movement. Ambassador Young is downstairs, by the way. We're going out to go to the New Edition concert, which is capitalism. Uh, you can't buy those tickets without money and a job. And, and they can't make any money, the New Edition, without, uh, without getting revenue. But anyway, second reconstruction, civil rights movement. We've been riding off the fumes of the civil rights movement for 70 years. And with, with that, fairness amongst the government. So, civil rights bill, affirmative action, DEI, set-aside contracts, but right, right to vote, voting rights act, fair housing act. We never thought there'd be a federal government that was antagonistic of us, at the very best neutral to us, but now we find they may be actually even an affront to us. And now all of those protections at the judicial, executive, uh, and legislative branch seem to be falling away in real time. All of the things we thought were norms falling away. We find that we, we didn't make it. It was made for us by the, the, I, the icons of the civil rights movement, which you are a historical expert on. We have never tried. And then on top of that, you have brutal capitalism now coming in with brute force and AI changing all the game on top of that, all the same time. On the 250th anniversary of America and the 100th anniversary of Black History Month, thank you, Carter G. Woodson. Can't make this up. As Ambassador Young would say, coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. I think the whole country's having a colonic right now. One huge digestive, who are we going to be when we wake up moment. And we're sitting in a moment in history in the third reconstruction. So, this is not a book. This is a, this is a business plan. And I wrote a business plan for Black America. They can go online and download it right now. It don't involve the government, and that gets us from zero net worth by 2053, the projection, to 3.5 trillion by 2053 without ever talking to the government.
But, how? But, but, but, but, but, but, but, how, how, 'cause here's that what's interesting. When Trump went over to Saudi Arabia, when he went, uh, and 32 CEOs went with him. Um, when I look at, listen, the White House is two blocks where we sit right now. Uh, the reality is corporate America is directly tied to government. Uh, when I, when I see what's happening right now with, uh, what they want to pull back with the SEC, when I look at what's happening with AI, when I look at, uh, contracts, all those things, the reality is corporate America is extremely tied to government. And, and, and I keep, I keep making the point. There are only two pools, only. There are only really, um, uh, well, well, if you say three pools of money, individual money, corporate money, government money. Uh, and the reality is the folks, when I, when I look at the folks who, uh, do get rich in this country, they're tied to government. Uh, even, even, even the project that you're talking about there in Atlanta, the Centennial, uh, project, government plays a role in that. Uh, and so, the question then becomes right now.
There's tax. There's some tax benefits to. Yeah. Yeah, so right. So, right now, uh, yeah, because government has the ability to create those tax benefits. So, you look at, uh, the data centers that are being being run, and they're seeking massive tax breaks, uh, from cities, counties, states, as well. Uh, and so, a person who's watching, a person who is, is not a lobbyist, a person who's not tied into that, the question really becomes, okay, how does capitalism work for them, uh, in a way that Joe Madison would always say, you got to put it where the ghost can get it, to where, where they understand.
Yeah. So, let's deal with the, the conflict. Let's go right to the heart of the conflict first. Um, is this a good system? Is it fair? Is it reasonable? I was at Clark Atlanta University last night for the kickoff of the tour for capitalism for all. It was a packed house, and a student walks up, "Sister, John, explain to me the fairness of capitalism. How is this system fair?" My response is, it was never designed to be fair. It ain't fair and got nothing to do with it. Business is not personal. It's just business. And we, yeah, we got to get the emotions out of this. So, I'm explaining this as you say, put the goat to where the goats can get it. Capitalism is a, is a table. Table with two chairs. You got the consumer on one side. You got the capitalist on the other. Let's assume for the moment I'm the capitalist. The consumer's job is to pay the least amount for the product in question while getting the most value. That's their job. My job on the other side of that table is to extract the most value, the most, uh, price, the most, the most, yeah, the most price out of this while giving the least value in return. The consumer's doing their job. I'm doing my job. And a good negotiation is where everybody leaves that table slightly annoyed. Because nobody got everything they wanted. And in a third world country, you haggle on the street corner. People in Africa, in 54 countries in Africa, are doing capitalism while we're talking about it right now. While we're talking right now, they're negotiating with somebody about the cost of that bread or vegetable or whatever it is, sandwich. But you're negotiating the price between consumer and producer in real time. In America, and London, and wherever developed country, the price has been set already because research has figured out what you're willing to pay for it. And you, and the people who are watching this say, "You know what? That comb, that brush, that wave cap, that's worth 20 bucks for me. The haircut at the barber shop, that's worth 70 bucks for me, or 50 bucks, or whatever it is. The nail salon, okay." So, the, so, fair exchange is no robbery. No, nobody's even taking care of your kids unless it's your grandma without you paying them, right? So, it's all capitalism and it's not personal, and we need to stop making it personal.
You, you mentioned about the government. Yes, this is an interactive relationship. But it should be good capitalism. Good capitalism, as I said earlier, is where I benefit and you benefit more. Bad capitalism, slavery, as an example, is bad capitalism, and you pay a, I benefit and you pay a price for it. Good debt is where I'm tied to something that appreciates, homes, stocks, bonds, cash, businesses. Bad cap, bad debt is where, where it's tied to something that depreciates, financing jewelry. So, we've been, we've been in this, we're this consumer economy that everybody's taking advantage of. I'm just sick and tired of it. Malcolm X said, we've been bamboozled, we've been tricked, we've been fooled, we've been hoodwinked. When somebody says, "Why should I try capitalism?" I say, "Well, it's, why don't you ask the question about why should you try God?" God cannot possibly mismanage and screw up your life worse than you have. It's not like we tried capitalism, free enterprise at scale as a community and it never worked out. Folks want to talk about Tulsa. Okay, let's talk about Tulsa. You know this, you're a historian. That was one community, a few square blocks. Wasn't the city, wasn't the county, wasn't the state. A few square blocks, a brilliant example of us owning our stuff. Yes, racists came in, turned, burned it down. Then the next story, re-, we rebuilt it. What nobody talks about is that lasted until 1960-ish. What happened? It wasn't racists running in. We got integration because of the second reconstruction. And understandably so. We didn't get, we, we wanted to figure out what the white man's water tasted like. We wanted to go to the white man's dentist. We wanted to go to the white man's car dealership. We want to, all stuff we were denied. We want to go check it out. Well, that removed the enclosed economy that's protecting and building up Tulsa. And it literally just slowly died. So, it is, is, ultimately, it wasn't the riots that killed it. It was market dynamics that we didn't understand because we were not sophisticated in this space. And I, I want to un-game this system.
Yeah, but you, go ahead. If you, go ahead. Go ahead.
So, you, you're, you're making the argument in the book about economic inclusion. Yet, we are operating right now where market forces don't even want to hear the word inclusion. Where it is, it is a dirty, nasty word. So, okay. Uh, and, and you have corporations at literally, uh, we have an administration, uh, federal administration. And then now it's filtered down to where Republicans control states, same thing. You got Texas got rid of its HUB program, uh, that 15,000 businesses, many of them African American. That was a program that was put in place by Republican Governor George W. Bush. Uh, and so, and so, so, explain how, in this, in this current climate, you're arguing for to embrace economic inclusion where the market, where people are saying, "I don't even want to hear the word inclusion."
Yeah, so I'm actually not talking about economic inclusion. I'm not talking about DEI. I'm not talking about diversity. I'm not talking about affirmative action. In fact, DEI is dead on arrival. I mean, first of all, we were fifth on the list when we started arguing about it. Right? So, why [clears throat] you arguing about something you're fifth on the list? So, so, okay. So, so, define. So, when you say economic inclusion, define that. I'm get, I'm not, I'm not talking about economic inclusion. I'm talking about inclusive economics. So, I've, I've come up with a phrase and approach that we have tested. It's politically neutral. It's hard to hit. And again, this book is not about morals. It's 200 pages of math. Once you read this book, and I'm going to get into some specific examples to address your, uh, your concern, so there's not philosophical, it's practical and, and specific. Uh, my next sentence. But this book is not, you need to take this book. People are going to take this book. By the way, thanks everybody for making it top 100 on Amazon today, two days after it's top 100 of all books in the world, uh, new releases. You need to take this book, go to page 88, section 42. Uh, page 42, section three. And, and give a fact that is undeniable. Here's one. There are 10,000 baby boomers, read, white, wealthy, male, try all trying to play golf at the same time. 10,000 white wealthy men, baby boomers are retiring, 65 years of age, and walking out the economy, Roland, every day. Not every month. Not every week. It's never happened in history. In the biggest economy in the world, they're walking out the door every day. 10,000 of them. That has to be replaced. Now, let's look at what's. So, who are we? 1953, 90, we were 8% black, 90% white. It's a stunning number. This country. Now, it's 40% black and brown. Within a decade, a majority of minorities. Okay? Let's, I do a, I do a, I do a very, very specific test in the book about a 50-year, um, a 50-year, uh, uh, data sample that proves a point. And black folks, because of black folks, we had affirmative action, President Kennedy, President Johnson, honorary President Dr. King. And some thought that's too, too much push, too much progress. Here comes Nixon in response to that. We can argue, by the way, Abraham Lincoln ushered in President Johnson, Lincoln and Frederick Douglas, too much progress. Here comes this Southern segregationist. Uh, first reconstruction, President Johnson. You can argue that that happened with President Obama has ushered in this other situation, uh, today. Let's go back to the, to the facts of the matter. So, you have, you have women who get put in, white women into benefit from affirmative action under Nixon, who, by the way, introduced affirmative action, a Republican president, all right? Created the national, national minority business development agency, a Republican president.
Actually, actually affirmative action was introduced by LBJ. It was put into policy, uh, by Nixon, Arthur Fletcher. Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, keep it, keep it real. Keep it real, Roland. Keep it, keep it straight on the facts. So, white women get the benefit that black folks teed up. Okay, I've no problem with that. I'm glad somebody benefited. Here comes after, after that, our smart black women sliding in, Latinos, Asians, Indians, all sliding in. So, is that a moral message? No. Today, what's the result? $30 trillion economy. $8 to $10 trillion every year are women. And women couldn't get a bank account in 1972. A woman couldn't get a get a loan unless her husband co-signed it, a white woman. A white blonde hair blue eye woman in 1972 could not get a loan unless her husband co-signed it, or a bank account. So, the, so, the, so, the inclusion of them in the economy expanded the economy. What's happening now is bad math. You can't grow the economy by making it smaller. Immigrants, it's shocking. What's the immigrant contribution to American economy? You listen to the pundits, it's zero. It's negative. It's actually 18%. I'll slow that down and say it again. Almost 20% of $30 trillion a year are immigrants. What, what, what percentage of bank accounts are being opened on, in the biggest banks in the world in America today? Of not of new to America, new immigrants from elsewhere, Africa, Nigeria, you know, Latin America, Brazil, uh, Asia, wherever. What's the percentage? Almost everything. Uh, well above 65%. Because 95% of white folks got an account already. So, my point is, we, we're arguing about the wrong thing. In fact, we're arguing. I like math, it doesn't have an opinion. God still sits on the throne. Badness is, is just failed, is, is defined by, by light. And I mean, badness is failed goodness, and darkness is defined by light. I believe on the 250th anniversary of America, God has sent a message to the biggest economy on the planet. You can't grow. You can't survive another 20 years without speaking Mandarin Chinese unless you embrace the least of these God's children. Unless the bottom is able to come to the middle and push some of us to the top. My rich friends need my poor friends to do better, if only to say rich. I'm just making a math, a, a math case, Roland. I'm not making a moral case. The math is undeniable, and it's all through this book. You cannot succeed. There's not enough successful college educated white men, it's not a racial comment, to drive GDP, gross domestic product, for the next 20 years. Uh, they need us. I want every white man to be successful. Anybody who wants to take this clip and push it somewhere, uh, I want everybody to be successful. There's just not enough of them. They need us. Even the racist is succeeded, successful when we succeed, because all boats rise. It's okay if you don't like me, I like me. My, you keep your, you keep your drama over there. Let's, let's talk about the only color that's, that's, that's non-racial, that's non, um, bias, which is green, economic green. You come, you come in and increase your credit score at Operation Hope. I guarantee you'll get a, a credit line. You have a job and a 700 credit score, I'll give you $1,000 if you can't get a $25,000 line of credit or credit card. I'll give you my own $1,000. And I know 'cause we've done 4 and a half billion dollars of access to capital at Operation Hope for our people who look just like you and me. So, I'm not selling wolf tickets. I'm watching. Next answer, smart. I've got, uh, three panelists here. Uh, they're ready to ask a question. I'm going to start with Reese Colbert, the host of the Reese Colbert Show, Sirius XM Radio out of DC. Uh, and Reese, in your day job, you deal with money, right?
I do. I do. So, I'm not the person to talk about, uh, the evils of capitalism 'cause I, I like money. Um, but my question is, you, so you said that in your book, you lay out how to increase net worth without government intervention. So, can you give one example of, um, that's practical for, like, the everyday person, the person who wants to be the next Jay-Z or whatever kind of billionaire, millionaire? What's one thing that they can be doing right now?
Yes, I'll answer that directly. And by the way, I agree with what Jay-Z said about billionaires, by the way. Um, uh, yes, I can answer that question directly. So, black people have the lowest credit score in America of all groups. And by the way, there's only three groups of 200 ethnic groups that didn't use capitalism and free enterprise to set themselves free. Poor whites, and by the way, if race was the only issue, there would not be poor whites, and they would not be the biggest group of poverty in this country. There'd just be rich whites. But clearly, the rich whites left the poor whites behind. Y'all on y'all own. Native American Indians and African Americans. Not African Africans, not African Caribbeans who have a different approach. African Americans who were enslaved. So, put that aside for a minute. Now, let me answer your question. African Americans have the lowest average credit score in America. It's 620. Which means that my cousin Pookie and them, uh, have a 500, 550. You and I have a 700 and eight, uh, 800, and the average, Roland's probably 850. The average is 620.
No, no, no. Actually, I'm, I'm not, I'm not 850 'cause I pay for stuff in cash, and the credit system don't like that. I'm 830. Don't, don't put me in the, I'm like 830, honey. I, I, you know, I just, I'm.
Of fact, I ain't even looked it up 'cause I don't, 'cause I, I ain't using no credit. But go ahead. I'm just messing. Go ahead.
No, no, you're not messing. This is serious conversation. I'm trying to, I'm checking my credit score right now. I check it every, every, every few days. I think I'm 790 or something. 'Cause I carry my whole company's on my back. Okay. So, let's answer the question. So, you can't get a decent car loan at 620. In fact, even if it's 580, you're not getting a Mercedes, even the Mercedes payments. And, and, and as soon as it breaks down, the secondary car dealership that you offer bought it from, uh, who, who makes their money not on selling the car, but maintenance, financial literacy, and the finance department, I'm 792 just showed. Uh, they're going to clean your clock, and when you go back with that broken down car, they can't wait for you to bring it back. So, si-, you can't get a decent car loan. You can't get a home loan at si-, at 620. Not a good mortgage. You don't want an adjustable rate mortgage. You want a, you want a fixed rate mortgage at prime rate. It requires 680, really 700, right? You can't get a small business loan. We like, "The bank's racist." No, if your credit score is 580, I'm not giving you a small business loan. You're a bad credit risk. So, at 700, a, a month plus plus security deposit of your house probably, now you can access a small business loan. So, we're literally locked out of credit. Now, let me, let, so, if you raise your credit score 100 points, to answer her question succinctly, if we raise our credit scores less than 100 points, from 620 to 700, over the next 10 years, Black America picks up $750 billion in net worth. Now, you take that 700 credit score and you walk to the bank, who, by the way, used to be racist 100 years ago when the Joe family owned it in Alabama, but now that bank is publicly traded, and you and I own stock in it in our 401k plan. So, you go to the bank, they have to make a loan to make a profit. You say, "I'm 700. I got my income, blah, blah, blah. I want to be buy a house." Now, you get the house. The number one way you build wealth in America is homeownership. I'm so tired of people arguing about this stupid point. Uh, and that's $800 billion of new net worth. So, that's $750 billion, eight, $800 billion. That's 1.5, give or take, trillion. We haven't even talked to the government other than paying the government property taxes, which is that allows the government, by the way, Roland, to do the tax abatement for the Centennial Yards project in Hudson Yards in Manhattan and all these other things we see going up. Uh, okay. Now, the, here's the most powerful one. Um, there's between 88 trillion and 100 trillion dollars of wealth that's going to transfer from baby boomers in the next 10 years, on average. I detailed this in again in the book. 15 trillion of that, 15% of that are businesses. The, the kids and the wives and the husbands want the stocks, the bonds, the cash, the, the real estate, the jets, the vacation homes. They don't want the businesses. Too much work. There's nothing wrong with the businesses. Why are we doing a GoFundMe campaign on a $20,000, uh, pizzeria in my neighborhood where it's going to go broke probably, and your family's going to be irritated with you for for losing their money. Go in your local neighborhood, wherever you are, Columbus, Georgia, Memphis, Tennessee, wherever you are. Find the, the dentist that owns three dental offices. The, the, the, the, the nail salon that owns two locations, the barber shop that has three locations. See if they own a 65, 64, 63. Make friends with them. Go, go meet, go meet, go meet a white person. Go meet a Latino or Asian. I don't care who they are. Black person who owns a business. Befriend them because they have nobody to give that business to. And in six months, say, "You know what? I think I can buy this business from you. I'd like to own this business. I'm passionate about it. I can go get half of this financed from the bank on the cash flow of this $7 million, of this million dollar business. It's already got profit property. It's already got cash flow and customers. It already has a name. And if you don't mind taking 40% of the paper back in a, in seller financing, by the way, if I screw up in the next three years, you get the business back. Fair exchange is no robbery. If I screw up, you get it back. And I'll, I'll raise 10% million dollar, 100,000 dollars of the 900 million, 900,000 dollars of the million dollar, uh, purchase price. 900,000 is financed. I'll raise 100,000 in LLC through a, a limited liability corporation through a private placement with my friends. A friends round. And we're going to close this deal. I'm going to own a million dollar business like that.
So, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me.
Green dollars right there.
Green got the AI. So, so, so, so, and none of that's the government. So, so, so, what we're talking about, and then, um, the next question is going to go, uh, uh, to Nela and then to Greg. Uh, so, we're talking about this idea of economic inclusion, inclusive economics. And first and foremost, uh, the individual.
That's my credit score, by the way. The, the, in-, the individual has to confront the reality of them, uh, their personal finances. So, the point is, if we have credit scores that are so low, we're paying much higher.
What's too low? Right. Well, follow me. But I get, get. So, if, if we're, if we have low credit scores, we're paying much higher interest rates on cars, uh, people, they are literally renting washing machines, dryers, furniture, things along those lines. And so, what they're simply doing is giving their money away. And so, if we raise their credit score, uh, if, so, if people go in Operation Hope, helping them to to to reset, in essence, uh, their finances, now what it does is it puts you in a position now to first of all, if you get a car, you can get it at a lower interest rate, cheaper note. You can get yourself a house. Now, you're building, now you're building economic equity. So, if you decide to now own a home, you now have collateral to be able to work with. Uh, and so, and so, if we're talking about being a part of this economy, then we have to completely redefine ourselves as individuals and as families and not just talk about a system if we don't change what is happening individually that puts us in a position to be able to participate in this economy.
Yes, and let me go one step further. I'm going to make this personal. I grew up in the hood. My credit score was tore up from the floor up. I had a 400. I was, I was homeless at LAX airport in Los Angeles for six to eight to six to eight to four months of my life. My credit, my credit was so bad, it was credit. It wasn't even bad, it was credit. It was credit. My credit was bad. And I could have filed bankruptcy. I didn't. I wanted to honor my debts. But my house, they were looking for my car, the Montero Jeep. The leasing company was hunting for that car. And, um, I could have given up, but I, but I had a secured credit card with a $300 limit. Now, people, banks are offering me seven-figure unsecured lines of credit. I'm black. I'm still the same person. They offer me seven-figure unsecured lines of credit. I'm like, "No, I'm good. I got enough. I'm good." And I, and the lines of credit I do have, I don't use. I try to keep them, try to keep them low so nobody.
But, but, but, hold on, hold on, John. Hold on, hold on, John. John, but all the lines of credit though. But the point is, you were in a.
I'm, I'm going to your point. You were in a perilous economic condition. You had to, you had to change your personal economic condition. Uh, yes, that, that's, but that's a part of it in terms of the mind. Uh, and then once you did that, that then put you on the proper pathway to be able, uh, to begin to build, to grow, and get to where you are. But you can't for. So, for the person who's watching and listening who says, "Man, I would love to be where John is." They have to also confront where John was. And what, and where John was and what he had to do to fix that situation that put him on the road for economic recovery, economic sustainability, economic growth, and then, uh, riches and wealth. So, there's a process here. So, for the person again watching, listening, you can't watch an interview of a Jay-Z or hear what John Hope Bryant has done or Robert Smith has done or even, uh, help with what, what, what, what, what, what we've done here without asking, "Okay, what did you have to do?" And what did you go through that put you in the position to where you are now? 'Cause I can say the exact same thing. I, I filed bankruptcy. I filed personal bankruptcy. I can then largely because of healthcare costs because of getting an appendix in 2000. So, again, as, as a part of this, when you talk about capitalism, um, for all, in terms of what you're laying out, um, is, is there are steps that we have to confront and deal with. And the steps you can't skip. It's actually have to go through. Uh, Nola Haynes, Dr.
Go ahead.
While we're sitting here, Roland, can't make this up. While we're sitting here, Wells Fargo sends me an alert notice offering me some additional credit. And they, and they, they send me my credit score. But again, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, again, Wells, Wells Fargo is doing that because of what you've built. And they also say how we can build and grow as a business by also helping you.
Dr. Nola Haynes, uh, Georgetown University School of Foreign Service out of DC. What's your question for John Hope Bryant?
Uh, thank you so much, Mr. Bryant. And this was a, as a political scientist, I listened to your argument very, very carefully. And my understanding of the definition of capitalism has to do with private ownership and controlling the means of production. Not necessarily just having a business. But we're talking about controlling the means of production. How do you explain that part to black people? To control the means of production is very different from opening a business, you know, maybe a restaurant or something like that. Um, we're talking about controlling the means of production. So, how do you reconcile that inside of your argument? Also, what do you suggest to black folks? Because if it's about, um, controlling the means of production, it's a little bit more than just having an LLC.
You basically made the whole case for my book. I'm not talking about increasing income, by the way. This whole conversation about making money, getting that dollar, getting that bag, getting that cash, getting that money, it's a waste of time. All money is a transfer of value. That's all it is. A check. I can write a check on the back of your jacket and put your routing number and your account number and and take it to the bank. And the bank has to go huddle in the question, the corner, the, the manager to figure out whether they have to cash your jacket, uh, or be sued. So, we're having the wrong conversation about money. You make money during the day, you build wealth in your sleep. Ownership. The, the book is about wealth creation, ownership. So, what Roland was saying is, first thing you got to own is your mindset. There's a lot of NBA players, NFL players, 70% of them go bankrupt five years after retirement. 70% of lottery winners bankrupt five years after retirement. We've got to stop obsessing about the money. It's the mindset and it's a wealth cre-, it's ownership. So, let's start with owning a home. Well, further, well, start with owning yourself. Owning your good credit. 'Cause we, 'cause you never had a billionaire, millionaire, city, state, county, government anywhere in the world didn't do it on the back of good debt. That is a literal fact.
The definition of capitalism. This isn't, this isn't about the definition of capitalism. This isn't about ownership and changing your mindset. I'm dealing with the definition. How do you reconcile the means to production? That's a, that's a big thing. I mean, black people, as far as I know, don't own factories, just like talking about it.
I own, I own, I own the, the, the hotel I'm sitting in right now.
That's beautiful. That's great. But, but I'm telling you, but this is the point. This is the, this is the point. Look, but let me, let me, let me make this simple. You're right. No, don't do that. You don't have to make it simple for me. Don't, don't do that.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, hold up one second, one second. No, no, hold up, hold up, hold up. Hold up, hold up, one second. We do have to make it simple. Let me just go ahead, okay, let me just say this right now, John, before you make that point. And, and this is, we, we, okay, we do have to make it simple. And the reason we have to make this simple 'cause a lot, y'all, I'm listening to this conversation. I'm asking the questions. I'm also reading the chat room as we talk. And I'm telling you right now, we're losing a lot of people. We have to make this thing, we got to break this thing down in much more simple terms for folk to understand. Otherwise, it's going to be like, "Okay, I heard a lot of stuff. I still don't get it." And so, that's what I was responding to though, Roland. I felt like that comment.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not necessarily explaining how to break down capitalism.
No, no, no, no, I, I know, I, it's that means to be broken down. No, no, I know, I know, I know what you were saying. I simply took what you said and I wanted to expand it because what I'm saying is I'm literally, what, as we are talking, I am looking at, uh, more than 3,000 people who are going, "I ain't really following this." And so, what I'm, so, so, so, what I am saying is we do have to simplify this for, uh, most people because they're not having these discussions on a regular basis. John, go ahead. Let me just give everybody a check, uh, that's on this, this, this broadcast. Let's see if we can make this relatable. 'Cause I'm, I'm more, I'm more of a PhD than a PhD anyway. I, I graduated high school with a, with a, uh, a good enough diploma, a GED. So, I didn't even get an advanced degree. So, let me just make this real simple. Anybody who's listening to this who makes $60,000 or less, you call my office tomorrow, I'mma get you a check. If I don't give you a check, I'mma give you a $500, uh, I'll give you a $500 check. If you make, if you, if you work, and let's assume you make $38,000, you got three children. Uh, you qualify for the earned income tax credit. If you don't, if you never heard the EITC, this is financial literacy and capitalism and ownership. If you never heard of EITC, congratulations. It's retroactive for three years. So, now versus a $7,500 check that the government gives you back in a refund, you get three times that. You get almost $20,000. You take that $20,000, you make $38,000. You either pay off that car note or put a down payment on a house or pay off your credit cards, which relieves the stress, or you, or you start a business, uh, but you buy, buy some stock, but you reset your life. And that's the power of financial literacy and the power of capitalism. That's financial literacy, the government, as you just said, Roland, working, your mindset, and taking that money and doing something useful with it. Now, I just gave you some money. Uh, now, and if you, basically, the, the more money, the less money you make, and the more children you have, if you're working, the bigger the EITC refund check. One out of four Americans, read black, mostly, who, who earn EITC benefits, never ask for it. So, that's 20 trillion, 20 billion dollars a year, poof. While we're sitting here arguing, somebody should be getting a check. We need to be doing rallies about earned income tax credit. That's black folks and their money. I'm just tired of having debates. I'm tired of, I'm, I'm on this, this broadcast 'cause I respect you, Roland. But I'm tired of having discussions about philosophy. People are broke. And if we don't do something different in black America, and I really respect the, the lady, the academic, actually, who just talked about it. And she's, she's necessary in the discussion. But I don't argue about history. I don't argue about reparations. I don't argue, I'm not arguing. I'm telling you what I've done. I'm telling you that this works. And I'm telling you until we try this at scale and we fail, I don't want to hear anything. Because we are networked by 53 to be zero. Zero.
Question, um, question from Dr. Greg Carr, Department of African American Studies, Howard University out of DC. Uh, thank you, Roland. And, uh, thank you, Brother Bryant. I think we agree on just about everything. Capitalism is for all. Um, where we might disagree is good capitalism and bad capitalism. Those Africans that trafficked us, for example, didn't realize that they were the foundation for the capitalist system we live in now. That's why we're speaking English. My question to you would be about state capitalism. What might be called socialism in some countries, what might be called state capitalism here. And the role it plays. Roland asked a question very early that I would kind of echo. Before I do, I do want to say something as you're sitting in Atlanta. Uh, and again, we're not going to get into that. You said you didn't want to talk about the history. But I will mention Dr. King in this regard. They were in Newark near the end of Dr. King's life. And they'd had come from a meeting with Amiri Baraka, and Andrew Young said to Dr. King, when Dr. King said, "I understand the poor. I understand those who don't have money and I feel their pain." And Andrew Young said, "Well, I don't know, Martin. It's not the entire system. It's only part of it, and I think we can fix that." At which point Martin Luther King said, according to Harry Belafonte, um, "I don't need to hear from you, Andy. You're a capitalist, and I'm not. And so we're not going to see eye to eye on this and a lot of other stuff." Now, that having been said, I, I think I take the Hosea Williams position. Wakanda is beautiful if everybody got a house to live in, but that's a different story. Capitalism requires a working class and an unemployed class. Everybody can do what you've done. It's the same message Booker T. Washington was saying. You got black millionaires, but in order to have a capitalist system where that works, it has to include everyone, and everyone means you got to have some unemployed people and some working class people, and maybe you can pull a few more up into more money and more, more wealth. But my question to you is, what is the role of the state? This is the question Roland asked. Uh, even in a world where you say we better learn Chinese because it's state capitalism in China that's made it the world's factory, is going to mean that people living in the United States of any color are finding themselves caught increasingly in a global trade network, supply chains. We see the Strait of Hormuz, the BRICS, we see what Russia is doing and why they ease sanctions against them. A, a system in which your ability to generate wealth in the United States of America is about to be severely limited in a world system where some countries are taking some of the wealth they're generating and investing in their people. How does the United States pursue a similar, uh, approach, and is that even possible in a country where we are taught that we should go for self? Shout out to Jay-Z, who created all kind of gentrification in Brooklyn and the whole city of Atlanta, as far as I'm concerned. How do we do that at the same time that we preaching a message of everybody can achieve and build a certain level of wealth? What's the role of the state in this?
And I've got 2 minutes left, so there you go. Uh, man, this is, this is like the most important part of the whole dang on conversation.
Oh, I know. Un-, well, well, unfortunately, we only, unfortunately, we blocked 20 minutes. I wish I, I would have said, I would have said I knew that was too, that wasn't enough time.
To come back, come back with just to spend 30 minutes on that brother's point. Let me see if I can, let me see if I can do this because even in Atlanta here, you have a huge unbanked population. And this is a city with seven.
black mayors. You got black wealth all over the place. You still have black poverty here. But anyway, uh let me see if I can address this quickly. You're right. It's the the current system in America is not going to work. Uh you cannot grow the economy by making it smaller. The immigrant approach is not going to work. The minority approach is not going to work. Uh the potential is approach is not going to work. We need a state that does financial literacy for all legislation K through college.
You need a state as in the state. You need a state that has a safety net at the bottom so people don't fall through the cracks. Safe health care should be a national norm. You need a you need a state that does internships and gives tax credits for it. Why are we the most philanthropic nation in the world? Because you get a tax credit for it. Why is it a 75% home ownership rate amongst financially literate white people? Because you get a cuz the entire tax code enforces and supports home ownership. You write off every payment. Uh so we need a tax code that supports internships, supports apprenticeships, supports financial literacy, supports investing in uh inclusive economic businesses from underserved communities, from black and brown urban and poor white rural. We need a tax system that takes people at the bottom and pushes them up the ladder to the middle and the top or a shot at the top.
And people like the socialist conversation, as you know, sir, you you I'm sure you know this, all socialism is is a taxing system. The Nordic countries are capitalists. Uh Sweden is timber. I Norway is oil, right? They're making money. It just said half of that money goes to the state, so you don't have anybody at the bottom, but there's also nobody like like us >> That's exactly right. That's right. So I love to come back. My wife might have told me I'm so passionate. She said, "John, calm down. You people might think you're being aggressive." Thank you, Shatra. I'm just I'm just passionate. But I'd love to come back. I love that. That's a whole rap, right? >> right. But but that but but that actually again it speaks to what I'm talking about. So we So we'll do this here. We going to have part two and you going to turn them alerts off. All them people texting you right now. Uh so I done told you about that doing television. I've been hearing that damn beeping for 45 minutes. Uh getting on my damn nerves, see. All right. And and And Shatra should have took your phone and turned them alerts off cuz it was beeping. All right. So we going to have a part two. Folks, pull the graphic up. Again, the book is uh I'm going to get the book and let's debate it. One second. One second. John, hold on. John, hold on. The book is Capitalism for All, Inclusive Economics and the Future Proofing of America. Henry, go to my iPad. Uh like y'all were asking the question y'all were asking what number to call? Go to operationhope.org. Operationhope.org. John, is it What is the number they can call? Is it 800 number? Because again, people are all in the chat saying, "Hey, where do we call?" Cuz they want they want to get their credit stuff straight. Say it again. 8 8 8 8 8 8 3 8 8 hope. They can also download the Hope in a Hand app on their phone on Androids and iPhones. They can go to the website operationshope.org. And I scholarshiped everybody in the free coaching and counseling. So I'll give you a $1,000 to a $2,500 maximum $5,000 scholarship for annual coaching to get your credit score up, your debt down, your savings up so the bank will tell you yes. And again, folks, >> for free. And what you just said right there in 10 seconds, I need people to understand. You cannot be a participant in a system and if you want to be able to have wealth, if you do not get your personal finances straight, that's where literacy is critically important. So we will have that part two. Enjoy the New Edition concert. Tell my guys what's up. Tony Braxton is great plus Boys to Men. It's going to be a phenomenal time. So wear some comfortable shoes cuz you're not going to sit down. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >> We got a whole posse. We got a whole posse going, too. >> Well, trust me, ain't no nobody going to be sitting down. So go to the bathroom early, get your food cuz it's a non-stop. I appreciate it. All three All three of them All three of them other than you, Roland, geniuses. All three of them. The two ladies and the brother, except for you, geniuses. Oh, I already know I'm a genius. You ain't got to tell me that. I'm good. >> [laughter] >> All right. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >> lot. All right, folks. Why does it feel like we're going backwards? Voting rights under attack, schools stripped of funding, black history erased. [music] This is the Trump MAGA agenda. They want to take us back. They are redrawing congressional lines in states across [music] the country, deciding who gets power and who gets silenced. We see what this is, [music] a power grab. Virginians won't be fooled. Show up, vote, take back our power. [music] It's a temporary measure that gives the people, not politicians, the final say. Vote yes by April 21st. MAGA Republicans ended diversity programs, cut funding for black students, and fired federal employees. And they won't stop there. Now, >> [music] >> they've redrawn congressional maps so that they can rig the November elections. But we have the power to stop them. By voting yes for fair elections, [music] we have the final say on who represents us in Congress. This is a temporary measure to restore fairness. [music] They are not backing down and neither can we. Make a plan to vote by April 21st and vote yes [music] for fair elections.