Trial Lawyer: The Simple Framework for Mastering Uncomfortable Conversations (Jefferson Fisher)

[Music] Disrespect is like a knife fight. When somebody jabs you, you typically want to jab back. The true power move is not in saying something real quick or catty and having that zinger. The power comes in being curious.

I'm curious about body language, especially in these conflict conversations, or any just tricks for body language that you would suggest. People think they have to have eye contact the entire time; that's a little creepy. You don't need to do that. What you need to do instead—what if the key to winning any argument wasn't about being the most powerful but the most in control?

Jefferson Fischer isn't just a trial lawyer; he's a communication and conflict expert, teaching millions how to stay unshakable in high-stakes conversations. This isn't just about talking; it's about mastering the moments that matter most.

Let's talk about unhealthy conflicts in the workplace. What happens a lot in leadership is you get into conversations and you're just hoping that it goes how you heard it happen in your head. What you need to do instead is what I like to call a frame, and you can use this in any context. That's how you do it.

I want to start with: How does a fifth-generation lawyer who specializes in personal injury—that has its own, you know, brand on it, for sure—how do you get the idea one day to say, "I think I'm going to give advice on Instagram about how to communicate better?"

Yeah, I had just left, uh, my firm that I was at as a partner for 10 years, and I wanted to start my own law firm. It's right about that time where you feel like, "I can, I want to go off and do my own thing." You—I'm in my late 20s, wanting to let me go and do this. And at the time, I didn't have another office; that's why it was in my car, Ken, because I didn't have an office.

You literally didn't have an office?

I didn't have an office. I'd gone from a corner office, two paralegals, two secretaries, to just me and a laptop at a coffee shop. And I thought, "Well, I'm kind of youngish; I need to get in social media." And at the time, video had just come out for Instagram because they're trying to compete with TikTok, and I was like, "I need to do video." So I was Googling, "How do you make a reel?" I quickly Googled, "Why do my videos have zero views?" You know, I was like, trying to figure out, you know, "What am I doing?" And I—the problem—here's a lesson—is that I thought I was going to make videos about what I did, starting to sell myself, videos on what to do after a car accident, just these—and it just didn't feel like me.

I thought, "What's my legacy here? What am I teaching my kids if I—if I'm ever gone?" I feel like a lot of people don't see this, and their social media is still going to be up when you're long gone; your great-grandkids are going to be watching this. And so what did I want to teach them and leave with them? You know, what do I feel like I know more than anybody in my world? And it was communication. So I thought I'd teach them how to communicate. So I started with, "How to argue like a lawyer, part one." That was the first video. That was the first video. And I didn't think—I had 800 followers, all of which were friends from law school and college, right? Uh, not a single stranger. And then it just started to kind of ramp up. I—I first had a video that had a thousand views, Ken. I thought that was incredible.

Yeah.

I thought it would be so cool if one day I had a thousand followers, and then it just continued to grow. And then by my fourth video, it had—it went viral, and then it just got to more videos and more ideas and more people saying, "You should write a book; you should make a video about this." And—and um—what I thought was just a little crack in the door soon got kicked wide open.

We're going to talk about conflict at work for a bit. All right, 85% of both individual workers and leaders, uh, agree that they experienced inevitable conflict at work. So I'm surprised the number is only 85%; I would think everybody goes, "If we're people, there's going to be conflict." But that's where we sit. And so if conflict is unavoidable—and I think we all realize that—this idea of trying to avoid it or step around it like it's a landmine in the workplace just seems like a feudal effort. Let's embrace it; let's dive into that. Would you agree with that statement?

Yeah, I—I would. I would want that number to be 100. Um, I mean, conflict is how you create change. Everywhere you've been and how you are now was because—and comes from conflict. You had a breakup from somebody that led you to the next person that you found; you lost a job that led you to where you are now. There are tons of conflicts that you had to have—that hard conversation where you can't be friends with somebody anymore, where a door closes, a door opens. It's conflict that allows that to happen. And what I teach is that if you want to have a deeper conversation, a deeper relationship, then you have to have a deeper tolerance for difficult conversation. I mean, I can—you want a surface-level friendship? I'll show you surface-level conversations. But it's the people that you've been in the trenches with, the people you've had knockdown, drag-out arguments where you're in tears—and that's where you walk away knowing somebody, and they get to know you because you're allowed to go deeper in that conflict. So conflict is not a bad thing; it's a catalyst for good, all things. I mean, you can go to the civil rights movement; uh, everything that we hold true now is because somebody said, "Hey, that's not right." And there's been conflict in that, and through that conflict came change.

Yeah, I agree with that. And what's funny to me is I think when it comes to conflict, there's two types of people: either you try to run from it or you embrace it.

Yes. So I want—I want your thoughts on this. Uh, in full disclosure here, I embrace conflict; I don't run from it. Uh, on some—some level, I think it's a sport. Um, but I know that most people aren't that way. Um, what are your thoughts for the people who, when they think about conflict—forget when it's thrust upon them—they tend to shy away and try to do everything to run from it? What do you think is the core—u—challenge there that they're facing that they would need to overcome?

For those who immediately resist… mhm… be more comfortable sitting in it. I would say that most people, if you ask them that question, they'd say, "Oh, I embrace conflict," but in truth, in practice, they run from it. They feel uncomfortable with it; they don't like it; it sets them uneasy. And it's a lot of the time—it's—they don't realize how biological it is—of your fight-or-flight. That's what it is; your body is controlling that, saying, "I don't like this." Every time you run into a conflict, a—a—a somebody gives a different opinion than yours, triggers your autonomic nervous system. It's me saying, "Okay, I fight this; let me send that hurtful word." Why? Because I want to hurt you; I want that threat of you undermining me, going against my opinion; I want you to go away. I'm on the phone, or I'm in a room. If you've ever heard somebody go, "I got to get out of here; I got to hang up the phone," it's the flight; it's, "I got to get away from this threat." They're just not comfortable, and they don't know how to regulate their body to sit in it and just go, "Okay, I hear you," and be able to sit in it and chew on it and be okay with it, rather than feeling like they have to distance themselves.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Maybe you're all right. And just being walked on… comfortable sitting in it. Yeah, I want to come back to that, but look, I want you to analyze, too, the—the person who tends to be—at least they present—they—they go right into conflict; they run into it; doesn't make them uncomfortable; they want to get through it quickly. That kind of person typically likes the sound of their own voice.

Oh, boy. Yeah, that—that person—that person—uh, you've been accused of that a few times. Everybody has a lot of words. I have a lot of words, Jefferson, a lot of them. Those kind of people typically are somebody who are interested in proving and winning, not learning and responding.

Ah, so it's about conquering.

Yes, it's much more of conquering, claiming—king of the mountain. You need to understand who you're talking to, kind of language. Um, these are the kind of people that, when you give them an opinion, they go, "Okay, yeah, that's great. Hey, this—okay, this is what we're going to do." They're not in it for the understanding; they're in it for the taking. And—and eventually, those are people that are going to be lonely, right?

Okay, so now that's great. So we got both types of people there, but both of them have got to figure out how to do conflict right.

Yes. So you explain to the, you know, the people that are resisting it, where they get that amygdala firing, right, and it's fight-or-flight, and making them resist—they got to get comfortable sitting in it. What about that person who's like, "Okay, let's go; game on," and it's a little bit too much of a—of a fight?

Yeah, these are people, like I said, they are wanting to win something; they're just—they're there for the scorekeeping, right? And that is an element that—it's not going to earn you friends. So they need to reframe what a win is. Yeah, they need to understand what I like to say is: have something to learn, not something to prove.

Good. And when they come at it more of being curious about conversation rather than always trying to push their point and trying to keep a—a mark on their tally card, right, more good's going to happen in their life. That's really good. Um, okay, let's talk about unhealthy conflicts in the workplace, right? So this could be anything; I'm going to leave it open so our audience can just kind of, in their mind's eye, take themselves to a moment where they've had what they can say is, "This was unhealthy; uh, this is conflict in the workplace, and it didn't go well." Um, if you are in that situation and you can feel like, "I'm—I'm trying, but whatever I'm doing is not working; this is—this needs to end," what would you recommend to them? How do they end it when it's a little too unhealthy in the workplace? What's a good way to do that?

So let's put it in a context. You're saying this is a conversation between maybe a supervisor and an employee, and they're saying this is behavior that needs to stop. Could be—well, no, I—let's—I'll give you one. So they are a professional, and they get paid to take care of a customer, and a customer has escalated something, right, or a teammate has escalated something, and it is—it's a little tense. Yeah, and they're going, "I don't think I can resolve this right now; I just need this to de-escalate." So let's do it in like—um—an immediate fix and more of a permanent fix.

Great. So, uh, the temporary fix is using phrases that are not going to continue to escalate defensiveness, right? These are phrases like, "I agree." Now, now that doesn't mean you have to agree with what they said; you just need to think macro. That means, "I agree this is worth talking about; I agree that's an important point; I agree we should talk about that; I agree there should be something done about that." They just hear, "I agree." Automatically, they go, "Okay, I feel acknowledged; I feel heard; thank you." 'Cause really, that's what it is; they're desperately wanting to feel like what they're saying is important, what they're saying is worth the acknowledgement in the conversation.

Fascinating. Or you can say things um like, "That's helpful," "That's helpful to know," or, "I've learned—well, listen to you—can—what I've learned is this is a subject really important to you, and if it's important to you, then I want to keep talking about it." I mean, you can do that with anybody, because really what they're wanting in that moment is just feeling heard. So when you can use phrases like, "I agree," or, "That we should talk about that," or, "That's helpful to know," or, "I've learned something," you push down the defensiveness. Or—permanent fix is what I like to call a frame, and you can use this in any context, no matter how serious or trivial. This is how you do it: You first tell them what you want to talk about; two, you tell them how you want the conversation to end; and then three, you get their buy-in into your frame. So let's say it's something—let's say it's something not serious, and then we'll do something serious. So let's say, um, "Hey, Ken, I'd like to talk to you about tomorrow's meeting, and I want to walk away feeling like we're on the same page. That sound good?" Got my frame. You're going to say, "Yeah," and now you know that's exactly what we're going to talk about. Let's say it's something more serious: "Hey, Ken, I'd like to talk to you about some comments I heard you say at yesterday's meeting, and I want to leave that conversation with the understanding that's not going to happen again. Can we go ahead and do that?" "Yep." Now everybody knows exactly what we're going to be talking about, because when you talk about everything, you talk about nothing. So it's much easier to have one frame, one issue, and you can do that just about any topic, because now you know we don't have to talk about Greg and accounting; you don't have to bring up what Susie has done. Um, it is now—we are only talking about that. Because too often you don't know what you want to say until you're already talking, and the other person is going, "Where are you going with this? What's happening?" Right? Especially people that are in supervisory, managerial roles, they're wondering, "Are you leaving? Are you—do I have to—I have to replace you? Something's happening; what's going on?" It's the nervous system—is there a bear in the bush? You know, "I got to figure out what's going on." So when you can tell them how you want the conversation to end, it removes the anxiety from that conversation. And—and I love that frame, too, because if I apply that to the—to the question that I asked, that allows you to kind of say, "We're—we're not going to handle it right now where we're all escalated. Here's what we're going to do." They feel seen; they feel heard; and also, you framed it for them. And what's funny—what happened to me when you did that little role-play—it was like—it was like you took me back to junior high when the girl wrote you a note and said, "We need to talk," and you were like, "Oh, man," like, that's never good.

I'm at junior high. How about my getting that text from your—from your spouse?

Well, so we didn't have text, you know, back in the day.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So your—your one pigeon would go to you, and the other pigeon—you get 100%. It was like—I grew up in an analog world, you know what I mean? I went to college without a cell phone. So yeah, all the uh millennials and Gen Z are freaking out right now. Uh, but what happened there is I thought—even in just—it was a role-play, but it was like, wow, it just immediately—uh—something transferred from you to me, even in the role-play. You know what I'm talking about? Like I was picking up on it; it was like you just went—you took control of the situation, and yet it felt like you were giving me control to go, "Yeah, I agree; that's what we're going to do."

Yeah. True leaders—they—they help walk somebody that they say, "Let me show you where we're going to end the conversation."

That's right; they're pulling, not pushing. Yeah. And so the—what happens a lot in leadership is you get into conversations and you're just hoping that it goes how you heard it happen in your head, and what you need to do instead is say, "This is what I want to talk to you about, and this is how I want to feel—how I want the conversation to end. Let me show you how." Because then that's the way we know when the conversation's over; we know the whole point of it. Yeah, if I were to text you, "We need to talk," you're going to go, "Oh, great; this is the worst thing—the brain is just—we always think the worst possible thing ever." So if—let's say I needed to—I sit—we sit down; you're the employee, and I need to let you go. There's a difference in me sitting down and going, "Oh, Ken, how's it going? You're good? How's your—your pickleball? That's great. Yeah, oh, that's crazy. Uh, so listen, uh, you've been a great…" Right there, they already know what's going—right there, they—they just—right, they just—they can hear the tone of it, rather than getting out front how that conversation's going to go. Yeah, again, this—this isn't going to be a fun conversation; I need to let you go. I mean, then you could—then you have the conversation, then you need to say what you need to say, but uh clarity is—is much kinder, and you know, I'm glad you said that, 'cause there's dignity in that; there really is. Well, when the leader can—not only encourage conversation, encourage conflict, but show them where to go in the conversation instead of just—just running lost—most people don't know they're lost in conversation until they're frustrated and they're—um—at their wit's end, because what they're saying is, "This is not how it was supposed to go; this didn't—that's not how it went when I was brushing my teeth and when I was driving here." They're not supposed to say that because they're trying to control the conversation; they're not leaving room for it. If you want to level up where you are at any level of leadership, you have to practice the skill of disappointing people. If you are always nice, if you're always people-pleasing, it's not going to get you very far. Disappointing is a—is a matter of growth. If you all are always afraid of disappointing people, one, that means you don't find that they're emotionally strong enough for it; two, it means that you find yourself so—so important and vital to their mental health or through their life that you have to baby-walk them, hold their hand through every single conversation. The clarity comes from being very direct with your words; you can still connect with them. Like my dad would say, if I—uh—had something that was bothering me and I didn't like what he said—I disagree with what he had said—he'd say, "Well, you can—you don't have to like it; you just need to understand it." I mean, it was good that he disappointed me very early—um—that it is very comfortable to do as I—it's not comfortable at the outset; it gets more comfortable as you go because you realize they're going to be okay. Maybe they don't realize it, but I know they're going to be okay, because that's what—that's what I mean—he would do for me. Uh, disappointing people is hard because everybody's a recovering people-pleaser; everybody likes to make everybody feel good, and there's nothing wrong with that, but disappointing people is necessary. It's necessary for asserting your boundaries; it's necessary for—um—standing your ground; it's—um—it's a necessary part of being who you are as a—as a leader. If you people-please everybody, it's—then you're not the leader; that's just pleasing no one.

Absolutely. Yeah, if you're going to people-please, at least make sure one of them is you.

Boy, that's—you know what, that's a bomb. That really is. Like, I think if anybody goes to therapy and does therapy, if at some point your therapist gets to that point, you know that—that—that's the challenge is that we're so worried about everybody else, and the one person we don't pay enough attention to is ourselves. Yeah, we get into these situations where you're—maybe it's 5 years in, maybe it's 2 weeks in, whatever it is, you look around, go, "Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why'd I say yes to this?" Yeah, this is exhausting.

Mhm. Sometimes it takes the failures to find your way to learn. I mean, that's—it's going to just be part of it. But what I like—saying no to somebody is very difficult for people. Sure, saying no, turning that down, not attending that breakfast with that—a work associate who thinks y'all are bffs—you know, things…

That you need to say no to when you say maybe, we'll see, I'll get back with you. It just lives in your head rent-free; it just continues on. When you say no, there's that temporary discomfort, but it's gone then. You're not having to carry it nearly as much. What happens is a lot of people are carrying a lot, and then they get mad. Not that the other person—they're just mad because they're carrying something heavy. It's a lot easier to say no to somebody if you explain that the no is based on a yes that you've already decided on. Interesting. And I find that sometimes if I have to say no to, like, a coffee or a, you know, it's like that's easy because you can go, "Well, I've already got something on my calendar," so we're effortless in saying something like that to somebody. "Can you do this?" "Well, I can't because I've got a meeting." That's effortless. But then when it gets personal... Curious to know your thoughts on that idea. Yeah, so disappointing people and saying no are very interrelated. I have a formula that I teach on how to say no to certain things, and you need to turn down the—let's say it's turning down an invitation. Here's where it goes wrong: or you say, "Thank you," you lead with gratitude first. Say, "Thank you, but oh, I'd love to; that sounds so wonderful, but I can't." So you leave—the mistake happens when you lead with the gratitude and then you end with the no, because the word "but" takes away from everything. "I love you, but no." You don't. "Oh, this is great; I think this is wonderful; this is the best thing ever, uh, but..." What I'd love to see is it—the "minim"—it dismisses it; it puts it down. The word "but" has a way of deleting what you just said before it. So what you do is you flip it: start with the no first, then end with gratitude. So when you—somebody says invite you to something, say, "I can't. That sounds wonderful. Thank you for inviting me." And if you want to end, uh, end with kindness—I've heard that's a great place—"Let me know how it is." But when you end it with the no, it often—people ask for, like, a justification. "Oh, why not?" When you say, "No, I can't, and I'd love to, but I can't," it's kind of this expectation of—they're like, "Do you mean me ask how you are, why you can't?" Because some people are wanting them to ask, or they give bad justifications. "I'd love to, but, you know, I mean, I got to walk my cat, and I got this—this thing on the thermostat that it gets—" I, you know... Right. Yeah. And you come up with these very poor justifications that they go so long that the other person's like, "You could have just said no." You know, I know you're not telling me the truth. But if you're very—again, direct clarity is kind. "I can't make it. Thank you so much for inviting me. I've heard it's great. Hope it's a wonderful time." Then that's it. Now you don't have to give any kind of justification, and now you don't have to take away the gratitude. "Thank you so much for thinking of me." You mean that, not like, "Thank you so much for thinking of me, but I can't."

All right, we've got a question right back here. Um, what if they're resistant to the frame you set up? Yeah, so if they don't want to engage in the frame—well, most of the time they will be, just so you know—the frame is set up to invite them into it, because they don't—people don't like to break their word, especially once you get in the frame. Now, if they don't want to engage in it altogether, then it means that you set one that was too monumental. You need to set your standards lower for the conversation. You can never go wrong with a frame that says, "I want to understand your position." So if your frame is, "I want you to say that I'm right," if your frame is, "I want you to say everything that I say is brilliant," then that's a frame that they're probably not going to go into. But if it's—you set the standard for—instead of just, "I want to change this whole relationship; I want you to be different than who you are right now in this moment"—you lower that standard and let your goal be, "I just want to hear your point of view." So if it's like, "Look, I want to talk with you about what you said at dinner, and I don't want to solve anything; I just want to walk away with a better understanding of what you meant. Can we do that?" Yeah, rarely would they ever say no to that. You just have to set it a little bit lower to make sure that it's—you want to understand and learn. Okay, that's great. Yeah, good question. Yeah, how often do we set a frame that just is impossible for someone to walk through? Often, all the time. We—we go, "Can you please just say that I'm right? That's all that I want." I mean, that's—and they—if they—that's the goal in the conversation, that's the goal for the frame—rarely would that ever happen. You can—you will get somebody to agree with your point and swallow it whole one time out of 10, but you can always 10—10 out of 10 times—have a goal of understanding where they're coming from. Okay, I'm glad you said that because I was just getting ready to ask you, "Does it sometimes sound like—or oftentimes sound like—'I just want you to understand my point of view,' and that's the same thing as 'agree with me,' as opposed to what you just said?" If I seek to understand them, then we got a real good shot of them understanding me. Yeah, it's—we are impatient to get somebody on our side of the court. So if I have a full glass and you have a full glass, well, I—I can't pour all of my thoughts into a glass that's already full. I need to let you pour it all out. That means I need to ask you questions and find out why you believe what you believe and where you come from before you'll ever be receptive to anything that I can pour into you. So it's a lot of questions. And people believe different—faith than you; people have a different mindset than you. Rarely, if you just go, "Why do you believe that?" "Oh, yeah, well, that's dumb." You know, "Well, I believe blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." You're just—you're just throwing your words away instead of going, "Well, how'd you come about that?" "Oh, where'd you learn that?" "Oh, and you've—you know, how did you come...?" When you get real curious and they start to pour out, then they're going to be more receptive and be more curious about where you are. By the way, what you just uttered—if people would begin to use that when they talk politics in America today, you'd be surprised at how much understanding there would be. Yeah, there's this—especially with politics—of just—well, of course, it's so clear; it's so easy for you; why don't you just watch the same thing I watch and read the same things I read? How dare you? Yeah, so how dare you not have the same opinion I do?

Let's talk about how do we handle a situation where we feel disrespected or dismissed. Mhm. Whether that—again, that could be from your boss, uh, to a coworker, to a customer. What's the best way to respond to that when you're feeling those feelings? So I'm going—I'd separate those; there's a different strategy in my head, at least, for when somebody's disrespecting versus dismissing. Love it. One says, "I want to hit you," the other says, "I'm ignoring your blows." Yes. So let's say if somebody's being dismissive first—that means I'm saying something to you, and you're just refusing to acknowledge it. Very different. That's—one: if this person is worth being in your life—is—I mean, don't—I don't know why you'd be worried about comments from somebody who—who don't matter. Yes, you know, if you're not going to take advice of them—advice from them, are you really going to let their dismissiveness live in your head? Yeah, so you have to kind of prioritize where they are in your—in your chart. But dismissiveness is something that you address in a—in a true conversation where you say, "I—I'd like to talk about something important to me. When I mentioned these comments yesterday, I—I felt dismissed, and I'm not looking for you to solve anything; I just need to let you know." And when we say things like, "I'm not looking for you to solve it; I—I don't need you to fix the problem," you're letting them know ahead of time you're just wanting to feel heard on it. Now that's kind of dismissiveness. Disrespect is much more, um, like a—a knife fight. When somebody jabs you, you typically want to jab back, and that's natural; that's normal. And disrespect—when somebody disrespects you, says something that's disrespectful—the true power move is not in saying something real quick or catty and smart-alicky and having that zinger, because it's going to have an empty taste. The power comes in being silent. When you can let their words just hang—they say something ugly to you, and you just choose to say nothing for 8 to 10 seconds—but then they feel kind of silly, because what they were hoping for was that—that dopamine they were looking for—that strike back; they were looking for you to engage in it, and when you don't—but then you just don't make it all that fun—then they realize they're the bad person. Now they're the one—probably—that's going to be first to apologize if they're somebody even worth being in your life at all. But when you can—somebody says something disrespectful—you either—there's two different ways I like to do it: you can either ask them to repeat what they said, you, or you can repeat it for them, or let's add a third, and it's probably best for this conversation, is you—you ask questions based on what they said. So if it's, "Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that—that sound disrespectful? What response were you hoping I'd give here? Did that feel good to say?" Little things that it's not—you actually responding to what they said; you're asking a question; you're being a mirror for them in that moment. So if you could say, "Did you mean—did you mean for that to embarrass me?" I mean, what are they going to say? Who—who's the one who looks more in control? Yeah, the one who threw the—the arrow or the one who's sitting and asking the question?

Ask you—do those three options come after we're silent as you were describing? Yeah, so it's like silent treatment—let it sit, and then that follow? Yeah. Well, the silence is for you, not for them. I was going to ask you—I mean, this is—this is great advice; I'm sitting there going, "This is great," however, on behalf of the audience, it's also like, I think you're a little bit more wired for that than—than a lot of people. So for the people that aren't wired that way, what do we have to do emotionally to be able to do what you just said, which I agree with your advice; I think it's absolutely right, and I'm going, "Lord Jesus, please help me to do that more." Okay, but—but what is your advice on that? It's rule number one in my book: it's say it with control. And to do that, what you do is you let your first word be your breath. Let your breath be the first word that you say. Okay, and that's going to set you up to control that nervous system—that fight or flight. You're not looking for what's going to control them; you're not looking for that zinger that's going to hit them in the face; you're looking for what's going to control you. Yes. And so when you can use your breath, that's going to allow you to just sit—it's not for them; it's for you. But also it works because in that silence they're going to fill the space in their head for you. So many times somebody says something and all of a sudden in the silence they heard it back, and they say, "I'm sorry; I shouldn't have said that," or, "I—that was rude of me," or you don't have to say anything. Wow. Because they heard it back. So you often have to just leave that space for their words to echo. I mean, it's—it's just—it's the—and it goes back into the confidence. Rule two is—I have it—say it with confidence, and it—and it works because you have the confidence of knowing, "I don't have to swing at that pitch." We get in this mindset—I think our whole—really, the—the world right now is so used to swinging at pitches, especially foul balls. I mean, just—we—we—we love to hit the—the foul balls. Um, and so just because somebody threw something disrespectful doesn't mean you have to swing. Let it go by; you don't have to catch it; you don't have to throw it back. That's good. So you just let it go. The first word be your breath; first word be your breath, and that keeps your logical—as you said—analytical side engaged rather than you getting caught up, because what'll happen is you hold your breath; you hold your breath, and you get real agitated; all of a sudden your shoulders get tense, and before you know it—because you're not breathing—that's why you yell. Your body's wanting to release all that tension, when really it's just a bid for connection.

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Visit betterhelp.com/ken to get 10% off your first month. That's [Music] betterhp.com/ken. All right, we've got another question right here. Okay, I'm curious about body language, especially in these conflict conversations. Are there any just tricks for body language that you would suggest? Ooh, I like that. Reading body language is much easier than controlling your own, uh, because it just happens so naturally. Uh, one of the biggest keys for any body language is your eye contact. Like, I can give you lots of little things of body language that you can tell when somebody's upset with you—like, that's not hard to choose. Like, if my wife's mad at me, I know it without her having to say anything. But when it comes to eye contact, people think they have to have eye contact the entire time—that's a little creepy. You don't need to do that. All you need to do is make sure that you catch—I'll just look over here, please. If—yeah. All you need to do is just make sure that you catch their eye at the end of the conversation. So if you end it, um, right there, looking at their eyes, they'll feel like you had eye contact the whole entire time. Also, difference between a closed response—meaning going something like this—like, "Yeah, go—what you got? Go ahead and tell me." Now everything's closed, or if maybe I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable, I'm going to do something around my neck, touch my face, because you're kind of guarding sensitive parts of your body. So your neck's a lot more vulnerable to people, so they touch your face when they're nervous a lot, because they're trying to—yeah. Uh, versus people who are more confident—maybe somebody's more cocky—I mean, you have a whole different style of how body language adds to the conversation. But you try to just keep it as neutral as—as you can. Like, you don't want to just go into it—arms closer—you don't want to have the power—you know, "This is my business speech"—hands right here—"Am I going to take over the world?" Um, much more—easier to keep it just an open—yes—stance at all times. I'm going to add to that, because when I first started out doing interviews, I got this crazy opportunity because of John Maxwell to interview A-listers in front of 12,000 pastors. Oh, wow. And so it was a terrifying proposition because you got professional communicators that are judging me—at least I—I felt like that might be happening—because I'm this young—I was in my early 30s—doing these interviews. And one of the things I learned to do pretty quickly is—because I have ADHD—so I tend to notice everything, uh, but I—I would focus in on locking in on that guest so much. Mhm. Now, I don't mean not—you know, moving your eyes, but totally just getting to a place of presence. Yeah, getting comfortable—or else I would have been paying attention to a guy's face on the third row who I could see out of my peripheral—right—and I learned that one of the things I would say on that is just the authentic presence, and then the body language will kind of take care of itself. You got it. It goes to your comfort level—just how comfortable you are. Like, when I'm deposing a witness or cross-examining, as soon as they grab their hands, or if they're shifting side to side, I mean, it gives you very unique clues and how comfortable they are with that answer—how truthful are they in that answer—how much do they like my questions? Yeah, same thing with poker, by the way. Yeah, I guess that's true. Yeah, I mean, everybody's got a tick and a tail. Yeah, but I would—you know, I—I would say this: that one of the things that's huge—I love that you mentioned eye contact—but I've always said, "Listen with your body," and to the extent that you can look like you're leaning in—not a power play—any of that nonsense—but just the—the—the head nod, the lean in a little bit, a smile for heaven's sakes—right—because certainly in a professional setting, leaders don't realize how intimidating it is—yeah—for people that they lead to just sit with them. Yeah, absolutely. I like to—and it adds to your confidence—I mean, in your perception of confidence—how—how you—how you exude confidence. Um, if you go back to—let's say—in a typical meeting room, the person who is talking the most has—always—the most to say—always has to put in their two cents; they're the person who's usually the most insecure. Yep. The one that has everything to say versus the one who's the leader—most often—the most confident—they have the urge really to say nothing. They know that their presence—they know what they know—versus somebody who's insecure—they love to name-drop; they want you to know how smart they are—how many things they know—because they desperately need you to know, "I am an intelligent person." Confidence—person said, "I—I already know who I am; I don't have to prove it." And so confidence is very quiet; insecurities are very loud. Yeah, oh, that's good; I love that. All right. Yeah, so I love this—uh—team conversation and conflict. And so when you're—got a group of team leaders together and you're trying to resolve something, um, how do you—uh—get that really extroverted person and introverted person to all be heard? And if you have a leader who's not really good at managing it, how do you then help—do your part to make that a better conversation? That's a great question. So if you have somebody who you want to hear more from and they're just not leaning into that—if you're in the position to do it—then you have to kind of play traffic control—cop on it. So if somebody's talking the whole time and they're kind of dominating the conversation, you need to use their name, because that'll make them stop. If you just start throwing out your point—go—"I think"—they'll just keep talking, or they'll start talking yours—versus—"What's your name, Woody?" "Woody." Yeah, that's right, Woody. And if I—um—is that Woody—Woody—eventually you're gonna stop; I'm gonna acknowledge you. "I think that's a great idea; we should totally implement that; I—I wrote that down. I'd like to hear what Ken said about that. Ken, what—what did you think about—you...?"

Have to kind of p you. Have to stop it. You have to filter it, and you got to pass it. Because at that point, you're going to have to play control, uh, on it; or else the other person who's not engaging is never going to, unless you call them out. And what's most important is that you say, "I want to hear from this person because I know you have good ideas."

And when you say that and speak that over them—I so, uh, Ken, he's got a great creative brain—I'd love for you to hear that. Oh, it just brightens them up, and all of a sudden, the ideas they will have will live up to what you just said. So you speak that over them, that you want to hear from them, and they'll show up. I wonder—I love that question—I wonder in that dynamic if he can't, if he doesn't feel like he can take the ball in the moment, or when the ball comes to him in the meeting, and he kind of shines the light on a coworker, if he can't do it or doesn't feel comfortable, is that a locker room moment where you know you go up to your, your teammate after the meeting and go, "Hey, I want to tell you something. You, you've got something to say?"

Yeah, and and I believe in you, and I think you should, you should pop up next time and say something. It's about all you can do there, isn't it?

Yeah, I, I mean, you could—that's always an option—but if it gets to be too much, and if you're in a position to where you're the manager, supervisor is not going to mind, then you need to interrupt. I agree with that, but there's a right way to do it. You—it's—if you just start interjecting your point, it'll get run over. Instead, you need to tell them that you're interrupting. Use their name. Say, "What do you—I know, I know I'm interrupting." Now, you need to say the word "interrupt." Don't apologize for it. Just, "I know I'm interrupting." So you're acknowledging that you're doing it. When you acknowledge it, people don't get offended by it when you actually do interrupt. I know I'm interrupting. I, this is a point that I know Woody or Ken, whoever, is incredibly skilled at. You have thoughts on this, I know you do; I'd love to hear them. That's how you try to interrupt, take it, and push the ball over. But yeah, if it's—you need to have an after-discussion, let's say at the next meeting, "I want to be able to hear you from this. I need you to jump in." Just transfer a little belief; that's all you need, transfer a little belief. But when you speak over somebody in front of others, it, uh, it totally—I mean, they grow, they get two inches taller. I've seen that happen as well, and that's a brilliant move from a leader, too.

Yes. Oh, I love that. It's really good. Okay. Over the years, the work that I've gotten to do, the stuff that people have the most tension about is asking for a raise. There's all kinds of data and stuff on this. You know, people feel like—I feel like—I'm due a raise. I want to have that conversation. Or we could couch this in an annual meeting for companies that do this, but not every company does this, not as many do it that should. So, question is, knowing what you know, what advice would you give to somebody—they're having their annual meeting, or they, they want to talk about a raise, or, "Hey, I want to grow here," and that's a tough conversation for people. I looked at the data, and I'm like, I'm going to, you know, forget all the stats, but it's like some people are afraid of actually losing their job when they bring it up; some are worried about, you know, hurting their relationship with their leader; you know, some feel like they'll never get a raise. There's all of these fears kind of in a Halloween bucket of what would happen if I don't handle this conversation well. Yes, knowing what you know, what advice would you give if they're having that conversation?

Oh, several thoughts, um, on that. If you need to ask for a raise, or you want to move up in a position, whatever it is, there is this thought that if you are being honest, then you're, you're hurting yourself somehow. If you're honest, you're degrading your self-worth in some way. That's, that's just not true. You need to be able to talk with them about it. What I like to do, really in any sensitive conversation, is what I describe as priming the room. And so I really prime the conversation, but I'll do it like this. So I'll say, let's say you and I are sitting down; let's say you're the employer, I'm the employee, and I sit down, and I'd say, "I want to make sure before we, uh, I talk with you, I just want to make sure, Ken, that this is a room that I can be vulnerable in. This is a room where I, I can be transparent." He said, "I'm talking about the room; I'm not talking about you." Very different. It's the same thing; I'm just talking about the room. "This is a room I want to make sure that I'm—a place that we can speak openly and honestly." What I'm really saying is, "I want to make sure I can be honest with you," right? But I'm talking about the room. But what's the dynamic there by not saying them? "I want to make sure that you—" You're detaching it, not making it as personal. Okay? Instead of saying, "I, I want to make sure that I can be truthful with you," you see how all of a sudden it says, "I don't feel like you're trustworthy," and does that drop their defenses?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Or I can say, another way to prime the conversation is, "I want to talk to you about this because I know you, you value honesty." I tell them the value you want them to have, Ken. "I'm coming to you this because I know you always encourage transparency." Now, that needs to be true. You know, if they're a bad boss and they don't, then that's, then that's, that's, um, deception in a way. But if there's a value that they know that they value, "Hey, I'm coming to you with this because I, I know you're open-minded. You know you're going to think I—" "I am open-minded." "Well, yes, I am transparent, I am honest." Yes, I am. You just develop those characteristics immediately. Exactly. All of a sudden, they love to live up to that value. Brilliant. And so whenever you can prime that conversation, you're going to put yourself in a much better position. Another way to detach it—let's go more into this—the raise, or you want to move up, is you still detach it. So instead of, "I'm wanting to know from you what I can do about—" when you're putting it personal for them, then it becomes, uh, a personal response. They don't put as a filter of the company or the organization. So here's a, here's an example: if, uh, you came to me and, um, uh, you just did a presentation, and I had said, "Your, your presentation could use some, use some work," or I say, "You, you could use some, um, you could do a lot better at this area, this area," well, then it feels very personal. Now you're going to get defensive because I just criticized you. But if I said, "The presentation could benefit from some clarity," rather than, "You could be clearer," there's a difference when you can detach the "you" to your presentation. Same concept. So it would be, "I'm, I want to know here at the company, here at the organization, what options are available for me to have a higher salary or work my way up," and you want to do it in terms of my career, my experience. When you can use the word "career," that's reminding who you're talking to is, "I don't have to be here, and I don't have to stay here. I have a trajectory that's personal to me that is separate from you," and the people that are value you for where you're wanting to go will understand that, and they want you to keep your career here. So if you can detach from the "you" language and say things of, "I'm looking for what kind of opportunities are here at this company, here at this organization," rather than, "What you have available, what you can do, can you pay me more?" Right?

Um, by the way, I want to interject—that's brilliant—because a lot of leaders don't have the authority to do the thing that you're wanting anyway. Rarely, rarely. And so they're going to, they're going to have to take that up, and I love that advice because that actually makes them a bit more of an advocate for you as opposed to if you do what you said not to do, and it's all this "you" stuff, they know they're limited. So therefore, they're going to shut it down because they don't want to seem limited.

Yeah, absolutely. And here's, here's the key—this is probably the number one thing—is you ask them what they would do, because most likely they've already been in your position.

That's right. I'm curious, what, what would you do if you were wanting to earn a higher salary here?

Love that. And, oh my goodness, it's like—because everybody's favorite thing besides their name is their—

Yeah, absolutely. And they love talking about themselves. And so, "Oh well, if I were you, I would do—" That's great. And, and then they want to, you know—or you can use it as a storytelling experience. "How did you get to your position? How did you—what were some things I can learn?" It's the whole, have something to learn, have something to prove, become the student, let them be the teacher in that conversation, and all of a sudden they'll give you the road map, exactly how to do it.

Wow. But you can't expect that, "I want a higher salary," and you only have one conversation; you're going to walk out of there with a higher salary.

Yeah, that's right. It's—you have to plant some seeds before you get that, that harvest. That's brilliant, too, because that—if we look at it that way, then that conversation isn't so supercharged.

Exactly. And they, they already know what to expect because—r like—just what you said, which a great point, that leaders—they most often don't have that ability, even if they are in charge. Say, "Okay, I got to look at the finances, I got to look at the books. What can we afford? Can do we have room for this? Can we have, do this?" It's not just an immediate yes, because what they'll do is they'll resent you for it, for putting me in that position.

100%. Yeah. Oh, now you're threatening me. Now it's—now you're giving me no choice. You made me look powerless.

Exactly. 'Cause a lot of times they're hanging on to power, yeah, and they're not going to like that because they feel like you put them in a, in a trap. You left them with no position. It's either you walk out the door, or you need more money. Instead of having, "I need to plant a seed right now," and that's, "I'm looking at just expanding my career and what opportunities there are here at this company. What, what would you do if, here in the next six months, you're looking at increasing your salary?" I mean, and they're going to give you that road map, and it'll be very clear—is there a path there or not?

Yeah. All right, let's talk about another big stressor in the workplace around communication, and that is the long-held fear that most people would rather die than give a public speech. All right, you two, you and I are freaks on that—from the numbers, as far as people that enjoy it, you and I look forward to it—but for people that are sitting here listening and watching right now, and they're going, "I'm that person," and yet there's going to come a moment where I've got to give a sales pitch or a presentation or something. Curious to know what advice you'd give to them about communicating under pressure. So not a negative environment like we've been talking about—this is just eyeballs are on you, and it's not your jam.

Yeah. One thing I've told—I've really only done this with friends that have had public speeches or something—is that people want you to do good. They do. And there's a—you know why? Because it's so awkward for us if you're up there killing yourself—spoon—yeah. Everybody—exactly. Everybody wants you—yes, 100%. Everybody in the crowd is cheering you on that wants you to do well. So that's—there's like this misconception that everybody—you're going to fail, everybody wants to see you fail. No, they're really—everybody's really your supporter in many ways. Am—the people that struggle, that do struggle over their words and have a difficult time, people like more than the people that are super polished.

Totally true. Because you come across more genuine. You come across more likable, more relatable when you mess up a word. I mean, this—just to even tell you—when I make a video and I mess up a word, I'll leave it in. Why? Because there are people that—it makes it just more real, 'cause that's what really happened. If you're always polished, if you're always smooth, and people feel like you're not really who you, you are on the outside, there's something else going on. And so my biggest advice is just be who you are. Easier said than done, but when you can just be okay with sharing the vulnerability, be okay with sharing the nervousness—there's lots of little things you could do to try and prevent yourself from being nervous, make sure you know your material, yada yada, the transactional side of it—but the biggest takeaway is to understand that people in the crowd are really your biggest supporters, and they just want you to be real.

Yeah, yeah. And I, I love that advice, and I also would say call it out. Like one of the things that takes the elephant out of the room is, stand up and tell everybody, "I'm so nervous. I'm afraid you can hear my knees knocking," or whatever you're going to say, and they'll love it. And then all of a sudden, by you acknowledging that, I think it also drops your tension. Yeah, and it goes for the, like, uh, people love the underdog. Yeah, same way of public speaking. Yeah. Um, and if, if you're coming into it new, people didn't have like a thousand standards for you, thinking that you're just going to hit a grand slam, and you better be the most perfect coordinated speech ever, right? And just tell them who you are and, um, yeah, if you can be able to say, "I'm really nervous about this, guys. This is one of my first public talks. You let me know." Believe me, everybody's going to be rooting for you to do well.

True. Yeah. They're going to be like, "Oh, this is awesome." All right. Right back here, I was wondering if you have any practical tips for mentally preparing well in the days or even minutes leading up to a tough conversation.

I love that. So I actually developed a, a little journal entry that I have on my website that's free. You can—it's a difficult conversation guide. So it has like the person's name who you're going to talk to, what you know about their own character, their ability, what kind of trigger areas, what are they sensitive to, what they not sensitive to, how confident do you feel going into that conversation, and then you have a place where you kind of assert the frame, like we talked about. What do you want to talk about? How do you want to end? What's the buy-in? Because the biggest takeaway really is that in the difficult conversations, you're just not sure where you want to end. You're really good at taking off, but you just don't know how to land the plane. That you say things like, "Oh, I say all that to say," or, "Well, I mean, what, what I mean to say is," when you've been talking for 15, 20 minutes. So very practical takeaway is: one, know where you want to leave, how you want to end the conversation. That's the, that's probably the biggest takeaway is knowing where you want to end it. Two, you remove the "difficult" out of "difficult conversation" when you can prepare yourself for the unexpected opportunities. If you have in your mind that they have to say a certain thing, and they don't, it's going to crash you and crumble you because you were expecting them to agree. You were expecting them to say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and as soon as they say that thing that wasn't in your head, and you start to kind of crumble. So instead, leave room for that conversation, for them to disagree. Next would be, as I always say, have something to learn, something to prove. So if you can ask—probably write down three questions that you can ask them—and set the goal for the conversation. We often get into conversations to not know what the goal is, not know why we're in the room. And if you can just set a, a, a very low bar for yourself—"What's one thing that I can do to make them feel heard? What's one thing I can do to show gratitude for this conversation? What's that one question I can ask that's going to make them feel like I'm listening to them?" Those are the things that are going to get more out of the difficult conversation that it's, uh, going to set you up for a very easy success.

Great question. Thanks. I didn't plan to ask this, but it just hit me as I'm listening to every one of your answers, and I'm learning along with the audience. I'm learning a ton. How much of this is a function of being really present? You know, this—here's where I'm going—it's so crazy simple, but it's like something our grandmother said to us, or our mom said to us back in the day—"Think before you speak"—is that the core of all of this? Every night my dad would pray. He'd say, "Dear God, give Jefferson wisdom and always be his friend." That was my every night prayer.

What a great prayer. Wonderful prayer. And, um, I didn't think anything of it until I got older. I, I believe that prayer was answered. And the things that I teach and things that I give you—don't—I, I think the reason why, um, it, it does as well as as it has is because you—nobody else is saying this, nobody else is teaching this, because I don't get it from a book, and I don't regurgitate it from a conference. And so it's all real things that have been revealed to how I communicate and how I like to interact with others. So yeah, part of it is certainly being present and being still, um, which is wise.

Yeah, well, exactly. And, and I was raised on—being quick to listen, slow to speak. And so that was a, a big emphasis in my life. And I'm, I'm the oldest of four, and so I was four when my sister was born, and so I've just always been the mediator. I've loved being the big brother, um, I've been the big brother and the dad of all of my friend groups. So I've always been an old soul. So this is just my, my personality and, um, how I like to experience the world. So following that up, the stunning success on Instagram is just again a validation that people are hungry, they have a true need for this wisdom that you're giving. I'm sure you're in the comments, some—I'm sure you know your audience pretty well now. What do you take away? What do we all, as, as humans—this audience—what do we need to know about what you're observing about our society as a whole and how we communicate to each other?

There's a hunger for, for light in the world. There's a lot of bad, and there's a hunger for seeing that there's more to it. I find that what I teach—I mean, I'm a personal injury attorney, Ken. You think you are the opposite of the brand that we all have, and that's the per—and that's what I mean, you know, I mean, we haven't—I can't see you chasing an ambulance—

Yeah, yeah. Well, I got running shoes, don't worry. But no, um, no, it's, um—

Yeah, they have not done a great job. I think I'm pretty sure a plumber is more trusted than a, a personal injury attorney. I mean, I have not done great—the reputation—I try really hard to work against that, but it's, um—there's also a sense of contrast that I am an attorney—they're not very trusted—and here I am telling people how to have conversations with grace and kindness. And so there's a contrast that's interesting in people. They say, "Okay, this guy's got a spirit about them that makes me curious. Where does that come from? Where does that light come from?" So it's, it's, um, it's a ministry in a way that I, I like to be able to share with people how I interact with others in, in my world. But I, I see that there's a hunger, and I see—

That there is a, um, a lot of space for people to improve their life in the next conversation. Yeah, let's go right here.

Hey Jefferson, appreciate you being here, man. I, uh, more of a question, I think, of curiosity. So I've followed you for a number of years and, uh, really just appreciate kind of the interpersonal advice you've given and everything. And more just as I see our culture kind of spin towards a lack of interpersonal communication and comments, you know, the delve into Instagram or on politics, or we just move to a world of texting, or we run from hard conversations. Like where, in what you're doing and the voice you have to so many millions of people, like where do you see the consequences going of a society that might not communicate as much or pulls away from that and retreats to just texting or just commenting and the negativity? Like where do you really just see like the fallout or consequences of that going in the years or generations or culture to come? Like just curious on thoughts around that.

That's a great question, and thank you for following my stuff. Really, um, I see right now we have a world that is fixed on transmission, like it's a text, it's an email, rather than true connection. It's me talking to you face to face. You know, I, I, uh, one time I text said my, my mom, this was about two years ago, and she texted me and says, "Uh, Jefferson, do you know the mileage on the white Nissan?" That was our family car that we had had; I had it back in law school. Had no clue why she's asking me. I said, "No, ma'am, I don't." She said, "Well, I just thought you'd know the mileage of the white Nissan." I said, "Mama, I don't, I don't know." "That's fine, but I'm, I'm, I, I just thought you would know it." I said, "Mama, I don't know how to, to tell you, I don't know the mileage to the white Nissan." And she said, "That's fine, Jefferson, I just don't like your attitude." Like that was, that was all in text message, right? Verba, all right. Now, what do you think I did? Immediately called God on the phone. Yeah, I was like, "No, no, no, no, Mom, I'm not mad; I, I'm so sorry." Like, so did she, did she read my messages? Oh, yeah. Did she connect with me? No, no. And so there's a big difference of if people, you're supposed to feel the warmth of a smile, not read it in an emoji.

So true. I can't explain to you what a sunset looks like and for it to feel the same as looking at one on the, at the beach. And so there's this world that we're in, so fixed on transmission of the these keyboard people who leave YouTube comments and they feel like they have to go to social media to say how right they are, so how wrong somebody is. Never in the history of ever has somebody posted something that's changed your point of view, or vice versa, you posted something that changed somebody else's. All what happens is a new cycle goes through, another day happens, and what have you done? Nothing. Instead of actually getting curious and having conversation with people. At your anytime you are in a place where you feel conflict over text, you pick up the phone and you call them. The volume of your voice, the way that your voice sounds to the other person is the only way they can relate to who you are, different from somebody else. I mean, you just, you're, you're just expecting pixels in the phone to replace the sound of your voice; they're not the same.

Where it's going to go? I don't know, hopefully somewhere better. I find that I, I think everybody is at this kind of crossroads where, especially for people that we, we grew up more with YouTube, social media, and realizing it's not that great. I mean, I know more and more friends my age that are getting off of social media or having a much healthier relationship with it, uh, because they've seen the bad parts, how like Facebook is getting older in terms of its users, and it a lot of the times is getting much more rough when it comes to politics or beliefs or values. Every, every platform is a little different, but I think that focusing on connection rather than transmission is a, is a good place to start.

Wow, so good. Certainly a core value of you, of your business, because it's on your website: John 21:17. The third time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him a third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know I can hear Peter getting frustrated, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep." Why is that verse on your website? Why does that mean so much to you? For people, uh, listening, that's one of the values of my law firm is feed his sheep. Y, uh, if that, if that's my goal, then I don't have to worry about a lot of things. When you have a value placed in that, decisions become easier. Say, I, I don't know if we can afford that in a budget. No, it's the value commandment is feed a sheep; I don't care what it costs. If that's the right thing to do, if that's what I need to do, that's what we're going to do. I don't care if that means I'm going to make less money; I need to cut my feed to hardly make anything and do this case free, feed a sheep. I mean, so decisions become much easier when you're following your values, and I can't think of a better value than...

Yeah, that I can't either. And the book, by the time this gets out, this should be in the wild: The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. Mhm. I think you want to feed a lot of sheep with this.

Yes, yeah, that's, that's the, that's the hope. How do you go from very popular Instagram posts, millions and millions of views, all the things we've talked about, celebrities DMing you, help me out, you know, and then say, "All right, I'm going to write the first book." As an author, I know it's a painful process, in the sense of, scary one. It's scary, all the things. What do you want out of this book? What would be your desire? Frame it for us, Jefferson Fischer style.

I feel like most people get lost in conversation because they've, they don't have a good GPS; they don't know they're lost until they're frustrated or they're mad or they find that they're in a conflict. And what this book does is it, um, teaches them how to use a compass; it helps them in their communication set their true north. And so that's why I have it called The Next Conversation. Doesn't matter what you said in the last one; well, all it matters that you have the power to change everything with what you say next in the next conversation. And so my pillars of: say it with control, say it with confidence, and say it to connect. When you use those three pillars, you're going to have a foundation that's going to allow you to make your own videos on Instagram about communication; it's going to allow you to not have to watch and learn from Jefferson; you, you're going to have it right there. That's a foundation that's going to allow you to see more; it's going to satisfy that goal of, I wish I just knew what to say, I wish I had the words, I wish I had this written down. These are mindsets that are going to last a long time because truly what you say is a, is a ripple effect. What you say for the m vast majority of your life again is who you are, and people only know what to think of you, yep, your reputation by simply just comes what comes out of your mouth. Yeah. And so when you realize that what you say controls what your kids say, what you say to somebody across the counter is going to control how they treat their kids when they go home or how people think about you, how you move up in the workplace or move down, all hinges on what you say next.

Yeah, I want to ask you this because I, as you were saying that, I'm just thinking about the application to marriage, to parenting, to leading, yeah, um, whether it be in a business context or a political context, you know, words matter, and conversations have so much power. I believe there are people watching and listening right now, and I know that I would put myself in this that have been shaped, hurt, lifted, but, you know, we, we are largely not just what we have said but what has been said to us. Yes, those words and and conversations have lasting effects in the negative, but they also can bring redemption, yes, and restoration. Do you agree with that?

I do. Uh, what this book does is it helps you see things that when you're arguing, arguments are like knots, and instead of something to win, there's something to unravel. Meaning when they're in argument, you're pulling your way, and I'm pulling mine. What this book teaches you to do is to let go of the rope and find ways to start getting curious in conversation. Doesn't matter what things have said in the past; it teaches you how to let go of it because we all have things that were said to us, typically as kids, whether at school by our own relatives that you can remember right now that have hurt you and seared into your brain. Maybe it was somebody called you a name on the playground, and you remember it, and you remember their name, and you probably remember what you were wearing, and little things like that that they all influence how we've communicated or seen how your parents communicate, how they communicated, how did they argue in front of you that have all kind of passed down. It gives you the challenge of letting it go and finding a new path to have a better conversation.

Love that. Well, folks, I started this show as I always do by saying these conversations are designed, uh, for us to learn, and I've said many times that conversations can not only change our perspective, but I think they can change our lives. I learned so much. I want to challenge you with something that I learned today that I'm going to be working on in the next few days and the weeks ahead, and and maybe you have your takeaways. Always engage in these conversations with something that you're going to actually do with what you've learned, and I wrote down, you said it multiple times, and this was such a convicting statement to me: have something to learn, not something to prove. And so many of us, we can get wrapped up in our insecurities and our goals, and everything's about doing, doing, doing instead of proving, instead of being. So I want to be more present, uh, in every conversation, and, uh, we've learned from the ultimate conversationalist today that conversations can truly change our life. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to join us one day in studio for a live recording, check out the link in our show notes for up-to-date info on our guests, dates, and opportunities. Jefferson, you're a new friend, uh, but I'm glad to have you as a friend, and I know I'm better for it.

I know we are as well, friends. Let's thank Jefferson one more time for being here. [Music]