He Predicted Every Market Crash For 35 Years. Here's What's Coming Next | Michael Howell

US federal debt has increased, I think

I'm correct in saying 12fold since the

year 2000. We haven't seen this amount

of debt in the system. Bitcoin atal,

they're the most liquidity sensitive

assets on the planet and they are a

canary in the coal mine for tightening

liquidity conditions despite all the

scorn thrown on the US dollar and the US

Treasury market. Treasury T premier has

flatlined almost for the last 15 months.

Why is the gold market going up? I think

that's a very specific reason which is

all to do with China might still be a

long-term buyer even at these levels.

But I still think that you can pick it

up cheaper.

>> Sup freaks. Before we get into the show,

I just want to send a heartfelt thank

you. Thank you for joining us and ask

for one quick thing. Could you like this

episode, subscribe to the channel, and

if you like the conversation, join us in

the comment section. Michael Al, welcome

back to the show.

>> Thanks, Monty. Very good to be here.

>> It's great to have you. And for those of

you who have not joined an episode of

TFTC with Michael, he's the founder of

Crossber Capital, which is over 35 years

of tracking global liquidity. Michael

also also authors the Substack Capital

Wars, which I highly recommend you

subscribe to. We're going to talk about

his latest piece that he dropped

yesterday. Um, and he also built the

GLI, the Global Liquidity Index, which

is the most widely cited liquidity

measure in macro. And I think it's uh

very fitting that we're recording today

because it seems like the liquidity

cycle may be crescendoing, topping out

and uh you wrote a newsletter and

publish it yesterday um talking about

what's next for Bitcoin 30K or 90K. Uh,

and so I think jumping into just the

state of global liquidity in general,

where we are, where we may be going, and

then we can jump into how it may affect

Bitcoin as well.

>> Sure. Okay. Let me uh let me kick off.

Essentially, what we're doing is we're

tracking money flow through markets. And

the idea here is a very straightforward

one that money moves markets. In other

words, if there's a lot of cash coming

in, asset prices are likely to go up.

And if money is leaving, uh, asset

prices are likely to come under

pressure. And what we've seen, um, and

you can probably see it on the graphic

that we put up, is that liquidity has

very recently peaked and is starting to

edge down. Now, I'm going to stress that

this is a momentum measure. So, it's a

rate of change. The absolute level of

liquidity is not falling yet. In actual

fact, paradoxically, we're just creeping

or inching up to highs, but the momentum

has definitely slowed down. And at the

margin, markets price off the margin.

So, um, this inflection could be quite

serious. Now, you'll see as well that

that cycle tends to oscillate with

around a 5 to six year frequency. Um,

we've had a pretty decent upswing, which

has lasted over 3 years. So kind of by

rights we are likely to be going down

for maybe a similar kind of period and

that's uh clearly something to be

concerned about if that actually

transpires. But we've had a decent bull

market in many cases. You know what

we've been looking at uh or what one's

been seeing over the last 3 years has

been absolutely uh you know a blueprint

for a normal market. Uh nothing is

unusual. The only unusual thing has

already been the tempo of the economy

but otherwise asset performance has been

absolutely on the nail. And so we just

hit an all-time high of global

liquidity. Correct. 188.8 trillion.

>> Yeah. But the growth rate has been I

mean it's been a tough you know this is

the you know hauling yourself up to the

peak is often the most difficult bit. I

mean you're obviously challenged with

the altitude and everything else. Uh

lack of oxygen and we're beginning to

roll over. I mean that's the the uh the

signal that you see here is just showing

that the growth rate has already peaked

and we're beginning to come down. And as

I say, it's that marginal change which

is really important.

>> And so we have these sort of

countervalling

forces in the liquidity market right

now. Obviously um you've written has

been boosted by strong PBOC injections,

firmer collateral and US dollar

weakness, but the Bank of Japan uh QT

and lack of liquidity and

uh ECB and Bank of England is probably

driving us further down. Correct. Yeah,

absolutely. I mean, I think the thing

to, you know, start thinking about here

is why is why are you getting this

inflection when you've got what seems to

be um actually some some decent news. I

mean, one is, as you rightly say, the

Chinese are actually pumping money in to

their markets. Um, I mean, that's

actually a normal thing ahead of the

Luna New Year. They normally make

markets very liquid, and they've done it

again. Uh but actually kind of beyond

that, they really need to pump a lot

more cash to get the Chinese economy

moving again. And China is really in the

doldrums in terms of growth. Uh it's

been adversely affected by a huge debt

load. And what's more, tariffs or what

were tariffs probably still are tariffs

in China's case uh are impeding economic

growth. So you've got a backdrop which

is actually not great for the Chinese

economy and they desperately need

growth. they're uh you know their their

model of society doesn't work if it's uh

you know if it's stagnating and

therefore that explains why they're

actually going for it and actually

putting a lot of cash to work. Now I

think if you then say what has the Fed

been doing? I mean hands up the Fed has

actually done a pretty decent job in the

last three months because it was facing

serious problems in the US repo markets.

Uh repo rates in other words uh

short-term interest rates were spiking

above where the Fed wanted. Uh there was

a shortage of liquidity. The Fed came in

with a new QE measure called reser

reserve management purchases and that

has actually you know quelled the fire.

uh it's put the fire out in the repo

markets and actually repo spreads are

kind of back down to normal levels. So

that's helped. The problem is if you

kind of look forward um it's not so much

that the Fed could be tightening here.

Uh it's much more the fact that strong

real economy is actually going to be

absorbing cash. And the point that we

make is that you know all money that's

anywhere must be somewhere. And if it's

going into the real economy, it's not

there to drive asset prices, Bitcoin or

whatever upwards. And that's really the

problem. Yeah, you said it. Um I mean

you just reiterated, but that was the

one line I highlighted

from your newsletter from yesterday is

note that all money that is anywhere

must be somewhere and if it's driving

Main Street, it's not available for Wall

Street. So in terms of driving Main

Street, what type of sort of flows or or

policies are overfocused on Main Street

compared to Wall Street right now?

>> Well, I think I mean you got a number of

features. I mean one is the one big

beautiful bill. I mean that's clearly

coming out. You've got AI capex spend

which is clearly going to be

significant. Um you know you've got uh

the effects of treasury policy which has

really been to issue a lot of debt at

the very short end of the market and

that is being funded by the banking

system because the banks like buying

very shortdated US treasury bills and

shortdated notes and that's basically

monetization. So in a way that money is

being printed not by the fed here but by

the banking system to fuel economic

growth uh you know basically funding

government spending. So you know the

government sector and private sector

capex and the main engines of economic

activity but you know if you kind of

look through the last print the Q4 which

was clearly distorted by shdowns and

whatever else um the underlying tenor of

the economy looks pretty decent and you

know one would suspect that you know

you're going to uh get a figure over the

12 months to end March something of the

order of about 4 and a.5% maybe uh for

US real GDP growth which is actually a

pretty decent clip. So that needs cash

to be financed. Um industry needs

working capital. It needs money for for

capex. On top the treasury is demanding

more funding. And so money is being

progressively drained out of financial

markets. And if central banks are not at

the margin issuing more liquidity,

pumping it in, which I mean the Fed is

kind of flatlining at best now, uh

you've got a problem uh in terms of the

amount of liquidity available for

financial assets. And that's really the

point I'm making. I mean, it's, you

know, the old paradox is that, um, I

think, as, you know, the veteran

investor Sandy Duck Miller always says,

the best time to invest in markets is

when you've got a sluggish economy, uh,

that central banks basically want to

goose upwards. And that's really what we

we've had for much of the last 3 years.

Now, the economy is starting to gain

traction. It's taking, you know, it's

just desserts in terms of pulling

liquidity out of financial markets.

>> Yeah. The um the idea that the

commercial banking system is really

going to be the one driving flows

outside of the Treasury and the Fed is

something I've actually been discussing

with a colleague of mine on a on a show

that we do every Monday morning. We'll

record after this. But I think if you

look at the nomination of Kevin W, many

people

took the headline of that and said, "Oh,

we got a hawkish Fed chair coming in

here." Which uh was a surprise to many

people. He wants to lower interest rates

but continue with QT. He doesn't want to

expand the balance sheet too much. But

if you look at uh policy particular

particularly in the commercial banking

uh industry with the SLR ratios and the

ability for these banks to take on more

treasuries to then lever up and lend

into the economy. It looks like the

implicit sort of policy is hey we don't

want the Fed driving this. We want the

banks really injecting this liquidity

via credit creation.

>> Yeah, I I think that's absolutely right.

I think the, you know, the issue is that

if the banking sector does it, it's more

likely to go into the real economy. If

the Fed does it, it's much more likely

to go into financial markets. You know,

evidenced the last 3 years. So, I think

that, you know, there's there's logic in

what they're doing. I think the problem

with that is that we saw what happened

at the tail end of 2025 when there was a

a withdrawal of Fed liquidity uh because

of I mean this is a wonkish comment but

because of this jump in the Treasury

General account and what that meant was

that um liquidity from the Fed kind of

contracted by about 250 billion but

actually created havoc in the ret in the

repo markets. So repo spreads uh blew

out uh in a way that was uncomfortable

for the Fed and the Fed had to reinvent

QE in the form of these uh RMP

purchases, reserve management purchases

and that was really a you know a way of

uh of solving the problem. Now if Kevin

Walsh is talking about not billions here

but trillions you know dream on there's

no way that the system could could

accomplish that. Now, I accept the point

that they want to do bank deregulation,

but the real question at the end of the

day is that are banks balance sheets

kind of big enough on their own without

Fed support to basically backs stop the

markets and if you get a situation where

there's trouble in the in the Treasury

market, um you know, the we face a

situation where uh dealer balance sheets

have actually shrunk or they've h

haveved since the GFC. Now that's at a

time when I think I'm correct in saying

that the stock of federal debt since

that time is up four or five times. So

what you've got is a situation where the

capacity to handle the private sector to

be market maker and handle volatility in

the treasury market is long long gone.

Uh they need the Federal Reserve and

they need a big Federal Reserve balance

sheet. The problem that uh is being

engineered here or we we're walking into

a trap, I suppose, is that if you get a

situation where the Fed has to intervene

quickly and in size, they're going to

have to keep coming back into the

markets and they put their credibility

on the line each time, which I don't

think is a particularly great recipe for

uh robust policy. So, I think the

ability to shrink the balance sheet

meaningfully is just not there,

whatever, however high on the wish list

it is.

>> Yeah. And uh I saw some headlines. I

haven't really taken the time to dive

into it, but it seems like the the repo

market is beginning to

um lighten up again. People tapping it

overnight. I think there was I think

something like 18 billion tapped in in

repo markets last week or one day last

week. And

>> I don't know. It seems like there could

be some liquidity. It seems like

liquidity crunches on. And that's

actually a good segue into the Bitcoin

part of the conversation cuz it's one

thing um I think it's a bit

counterintuitive

to many people out there. Uh and

especially if you're looking at the

price of Bitcoin now uh almost 50% off

its all-time high that it hit in late

October, early November

>> last year. are looking at gold, silver,

equities markets, and uh Bitcoin seems

to have detached and people are really

picking on Bitcoin right now saying

look, it's not not what you marketed it

marketed it to be. It's not a store of

value asset, but um I would push back

that the properties of Bitcoin, the

protocol uh and how it works make it

such that if you understand how that

works, it is a good store of value. has

predictable um sort of consensus

policies and you know there's only ever

going to be 21 million. But uh the

counterintuitive

use case of Bitcoin is this liquidity

profile that it has trades 24/7 365 uh

liquid markets even though the market

cap has come down significantly

>> in recent months. But um the ability to

basically sell Bitcoin on a moment

moment's notice, get cash right away,

and then uh bolster margin in another

part of your portfolio is actually a

fundamental value prop that I don't

think people really recognize yet. And

the whole point of bringing this up is

that I believe that Bitcoin acts as this

liquidity alarm bell, maybe a leading

indicator for liquidity tremors on on

the horizon. And I think what we've seen

since late November and especially cross

referencing it with um with the work

that you do in the GLI, it seems like

that may be the case.

>> Yeah, I think absolutely. I mean, I I

was going to I mean, as a segue into

what's happening in Bitcoin, I mean, you

may want to look at this slide that I've

just put up, which is what we think of

as the asset allocation cycle. And you

know, the whole point right now is that

the watch word is rotation. Uh you need

to be rotating through the cycle. I mean

this is a a dynamic asset allocation. It

never stands still. And if you look at

how the cycle evolves uh you know eyeing

back the the previous cyclical diagram

of liquidity, this is aligning that with

asset allocation choice. And what it

says is that if you're around the peak

of the cycle, which we are now, uh

commodity markets are really the thing

that tends to run. Lo and behold, you've

got very strong commodity markets. gold,

you know, evidence gold for example, but

equally copper, uh, a lot of other u,

you know, metal metals moving up

strongly as well. Equities kind of

precede that. So in the upswing of the

cycle, you tend to find equities do uh,

you know, probably by far and away the

the best asset class and a risk return

perspective. And then as that cycle

rolls over and starts to go down, uh

cash tends to be the best asset in

absolute terms reaching the trough, uh

bonds then come into their own uh long

duration government bonds and then the

cycle starts again uh with a uh risk on

move um and back to equities. So you see

that sort of movement through and what

we've seen through this cycle is

absolutely that that particular

phenomenon. Now, the traffic light

diagram that I'm going to show here, um,

you know, is really the segue into into

what's happening in Bitcoin. And what

this shows is again that asset

allocation process with assets on the

left and industry groups on the right.

And what it's divided into are four

different regimes. Rebound, calm,

speculation, turbulence, which is

generic uh descriptions of the phase of

the liquidity cycle in each case.

Traffic lights are traffic lights. So

green is go, red is stop, u amber is

proceed with care and you can see in the

rebounding calm the risk on phases that

you really want equities uh you know

full on equities. You want some credits

early in the cycle rebound. You want

commodities as the cycle matures and by

the end of the cycle you want to end up

in uh long duration government bonds on

industry groups. Uh the upswing the

cyclical stage uh is dominated by

technology and that's clearly the stage

where Bitcoin uh as an asset does best

in the upswing of the cycle. Financials

do well about midcycle and then at the

top of the cycle you want energy

commodity stocks and that's really

what's running right now with a move

beginning into defensive things like um

you know consumer staples are beginning

to move or utilities. So that's how the

asset allocation process works. Now does

that line up with Bitcoin? It does. And

I'm going to shift on to uh a slide a

little bit later on if I can get up

there quickly which is basically looking

at the correlation between Bitcoin and

liquidity. And the reason that that's an

important point to watch is that if we

believe that liquidity is trending lower

now um that's going to come at the cost

of Bitcoin performance. uh

notwithstanding the long-term merits of

um of Bitcoin as you rightly point out

and I'm a strong believer in I mean I

think Bitcoin has to form a part of

everyone's portfolio for a lot of the

reasons you site but this is evidencing

the fact that the orange line which is

uh a basket of actually Bitcoin Ethereum

and Salana with a 60 3010 waiting uh

what that's showing is strong

correlation uh between movements in

liquidity we look at six week changes

here but we've advanced the liquidity

data the black line uh forward by 3

months to show that uh basically uh

Bitcoin atal are very liquidity

sensitive they're the most liquidity

sensitive assets on the planet and

they're a barometer or canary in the

coal mine for tightening liquidity

conditions and that's basically the

story right now if you think liquidity

is weakening significantly and I think

there's a real risk that that cycle is

going to head downwards further

then you've got you run a risk that

Bitcoin is going to fall more. Um, and

that's an unfortunate feature. But, you

know, I'd still be a long-term buyer,

you know, even at these levels. But, uh,

you know, I still think that you can

pick it up cheaper. What's up, freaks?

If you've been listening for a while,

you've probably heard us talk about

BitKey. It's a Bitcoin wallet built for

people who want self-custody to actually

fit into their lives. The key is a

private multi-ig wallet that removes the

biggest point of failure in traditional

self-custody. The seed phrase, no

ceremony, nothing to hide, and no single

mistake that can put your Bitcoin at

risk. Things get lost. Hey, we know

that. Phones get replaced, life happens.

Bit key is designed so your Bitcoin

stays secure and recoverable without

demanding constant attention or

expertise. And because it's built for

the long term, inheritance is built in

so your Bitcoin can move securely into

the next generation. It's Bitcoin

self-custody built for real life. And

for February only, freaks, for you guys.

For you guys only. Listeners can get

BitKey for $99 using the code TFTC99.

Go to bitkey.world. That's bit tke

ke.world.

Use the code TFTC99

to get a bit key for $99. You can go

directly to the bit.world site if you're

watching on YouTube in our store below.

Sup freaks. This is brought to you by

our good friends at Silent. Silent

creates everyday Faraday gear that

protects your hardware. We're in

Bitcoin. We have a lot of hardware that

we need to secure. Your wallet emits

signals that could leave you vulnerable.

You want to pick up silence gear, put

your hardware in that. I have a tap

signer right here. I got the silent card

holder. Replace my wallet. I was using

ridge wallet cuz it's secured against

RFID signal jacking. Uh silent, the card

holder does the same thing. It's much

sleeker. Fits in my pocket much easier.

I also have the Faraday phone sleeve,

which you can put a hardware wallet in.

We're actually using it for our keys at

the house, too. There's been a lot of

robberies. They have essential Faraday

slings, Faraday backpacks. It's a

Bitcoin company. They're running on a

Bitcoin standard. or they have a Bitcoin

treasury. They accept Bitcoin via

Strike. So, go to slt.com/tc

to get 15% off anything or simply just

use the code TFTC when shopping at

slt.com. Patented technology, special

operations approved. It has free

shipping as well. So, go check it out. I

I guess let's dive into the newsletter

that you published yesterday and just

giving people sort of a range of

possibilities and um the different cases

for the liquidity crunch and the

potential big rebound between 30K and

90K. Uh I guess just walk us through the

sort of dynamics at play. What would

lead the price to move down even further

and in the outside chance that there is

a correction to the upside? What would

be the driver of an upside correction?

>> Well, I think the first thing is what

what would cause a further drop and a

further drop would be basically uh the

result uh of tightening liquidity

conditions. uh and that could come from

not necessarily from a from a Fed

tightening although including that would

that would be a factor but more likely

in this case from a stronger real

economy and by the increasing demands on

the financial sector for funding from

other areas. Now we know you've got the

AI spend but you've got a big federal

deficit to fund and maybe after uh you

know the Supreme Court's decision uh

there's an even bigger federal deficit

to fund. and we'll see how that plays

out. But generally funding demands are

going up and um that will come at the

cost of of risk assets. Investors will

have to take money out of one area of a

portfolio to basically fund another. So

that would be the that would be the

cause of problems. The the 90,000 is a

longerterm aspiration. I think that

really rests on the idea that central

banks ultimately will have to start

printing money aggressively both in one

corner to fund government deficits

because I think that that's in many ways

the only game left. You've got to

monetize these deficits. Uh there's no

way that uh it could be afforded through

typical means of debt issuance uh

because of bomb vigilantes around or

more particularly because of taxation

because we're on the wrong side of the

Laffer curve. I mean, nobody really can

can sustain higher tax rates. So, it's

got to be a monetization in some form.

And that, as you know, you alluded to,

is probably already happening now

anyway. I mean, subtly through the

mechanism of issuing lots of short-term

debt. Uh, that's a backdoor way into

banks uh basically monetizing. So, I

would say those are the two extremes.

Now, what is more likely near-term? I

think what's more likely near-term is

further downside. And the reason for

that is that uh you can already see

signs in the bond markets that things

are not going very well for you know

maybe risk assets. And I'm going to show

you this chart which kind of denies the

claim that many people have been making

over the last uh few months that there

is a monetary debasement going on which

is basically uh fueling the price of

gold. And this is this chart. And if you

take that in association with the

previous one on bit on bitcoin atal

those these two charts together

basically say you know debasement what

debasement because actually what they're

both showing is liquidity conditions are

actually starting to tighten and I say

that because this chart although it's um

you know bit of a sort of super nerd

chart but it's basically looking at

bondterm premia which makes most

people's eyes glaze over uh sometimes

even mine. But what this is looking at

is the risk premium that investors are

forced to pay on holding government pay

on holding government bonds. And this is

showing um you know how much premium

they need or discount they're prepared

to give for holding interest rate risk

over the term of the bond. Now just

think of it as a straightforward risk

premium for a bond. But that particular

term premier if there was a big

debasement and bucketloads of liquidity

in the system that would be going up not

uh flatlining as it's doing here or even

coming down and what you can see is

despite all the scorn thrown on the US

dollar and the US treasury market as

sort of you know now fading safe assets

as many people like to say look at that

line the bright red line uh you can see

that the treasury term premier has

flatlined

uh you know almost for the last 15

months I mean there's been no change

that's been a robust performance now

what I would argue is if that's uh if

the bond market is so robust it's

certainly not detecting any monetary

inflation right now so the whole idea

that gold is being propelled by that

reason is wrong and I think that's an

interesting point to ponder in the light

of what's happening to Bitcoin in

particular so why is it that Bitcoin is

going down my view is because global

liquidity is challenged

And why is the gold market going up? I

think that's a very specific reason

which is all to do with China which we

can come on to later.

>> Well, we can go into later or now you

have me curious why why is China driving

that? I mean there's the theories. I

mean I the theory that makes the most

sense to me is that we have this

multipolar geopolitical

um landscape

accelerating at an ever quickening

quickening pace.

>> Yeah. And I think I mean post 2022 with

the seizure of the Russian treasury

assets it it would make sense to me that

Russia, China and others got together

and said hey we can't we can't depend on

this dollar reserve system. We need to

diversify away uh to an alternative

monetary standard and falling back to

gold makes a lot of sense. And if you

look at all the gold that's been called

on warrant at the Shanghai exchange by

the PBOC, it looks like they want to put

that gold that they've accumulated to

work in some sort of settlement network.

>> Yeah, I think ab I mean I agree with

that 100%. I think that's definitely

going on and I think that's a you know a

further argument really behind why gold

is going up. But that's explaining why

you're getting official purchases of

gold which I can come on to in terms of

how the future monetary system look or

what it looks like. But this particular

chart that you see here

is looking at uh People's Bank of China,

that's PBOC, net liquidity injections

into their monetary system. Now, this is

shown daily, and I put a trend line

through that 50-day uh rolling average

through that, but you can see the upward

trend, and this is the year change in

their liquidity injections. So, they're

basically accelerating their liquidity

inflows. Now, why are they doing that?

um that's because of debt because

there's huge debt in the Chinese system

they need to get out of and basically

that liquidity increase is trying to

devalue internally uh the value of debt.

So they're actually if you like

destroying their paper money and that is

encouraging uh purchases of gold um in

particular by the private sector

notwithstanding what the official level

is doing as well. So if you look at this

chart, this is the yuan gold price. In

other words, the price of uh gold in

yuan and China is driving that process.

Uh it's the Shanghai exchange which is

the marginal price of gold, no longer

COMX or London. And I think that they've

been targeting gold at different levels

for different at different periods. And

you know, we're now getting gold over

35,000 uh yuan or remmbb an ounce. And I

think it's going higher because I think

they're going to have to put the same

amount of liquidity back in their system

this year that they put in last year.

Another trillion dollar. Now, if you

look at this chart, this is the one that

many people site as to why the gold

market is experiencing uh this great

debasement. And what it shows is the

decoupling between the gold price which

is in orange here and real interest

rates which are shown inverted. So this

is real dollar interest rates shown

upside down. And there's a break around

2023 where the gold market shoots up but

interest rates kind of flatline. So

people say something else is going on

here. This is central banks basically

debasing money. Well, actually, it's

China. And this is the gold price again

uh against Chinese PBOC liquidity

injections. That's a pretty decent

correlation. And that's showing that

what you've got here is a driver that's

coming primarily from China. Now, that's

what's uh you know behind private sector

gold purchases. And it's going to get

worse because if I show you this chart,

this is what China really has to do. And

what this is explaining is the plight

that China is facing which is a plight

of having too much debt uh that needs

refinancing and they don't have the

liquidity in the system at the moment to

refinance that. So they got to inject

more liquidity and the two lines on the

chart are measuring debt liquidity

ratios. Now the reason for looking at

this is that um although many other

people site alternative measures like

debt GDP, our view is that debt

liquidity is the crucial statistic

because debt has to be refinanced and

financial markets are dominated today by

refinancing transactions. It's not about

raising new capital. It's all about

rolling over existing debts. And if

you've got debt that's issued in the

world economy, you know, which is what

$350 trillion and uh circle of the

amount of debt outstanding and you've

got an average maturity of 5 years, that

means you've got to refinance about 70

trillion a year on average. Um and

that's a huge ask. So basically in

China's case, the debt liquidity ratio

uh the orange line is high and that has

to come down and they're printing money.

Japan did the same thing. Japan is the

red line. Look at what happened after

the Japanese bubble burst in 1990. The

debt liquidity ratio went up

significantly and abonomics uh was

forced to basically address that problem

and it did that through reform and it

did that through uh the Bank of Japan

buying huge amounts of Japanese

government bonds um trashing the

currency. The yen has collapsed uh but

Japan is dinging its way out of its

problems and Japan now actually looks a

pretty decent investment. China is doing

the same thing 10-15 years later. It's

printing a lot of liquidity and they're

going to have to do, you know, as much

this year as they did last year or more

to get out of the problems. And that's

why you've got this monetization going

on. Um, that's the microcosm of why gold

is going up, why Bitcoin isn't. Now

that's your if you like thesis about why

you could get a lower Bitcoin price in

the near term. But the gold market could

paradoxically hold up against this

backdrop. But the other question you ask

is what then drives Bitcoin in the

future in the long term towards 90,000

or even beyond. And I'd be optimistic as

say it's going to be a long way beyond

that. Now the reason for that um if you

want me to go on is to basically look at

what's happening in terms of debt uh in

the world economy which I can come to in

this chart. Should I proceed on this?

>> Yes sir.

>> So if you think about what the financial

system is this is looking at the debt

liquidity cycle and this is saying look

financial markets are all about uh

refinancing existing debts. We got way

too much debt in the world economy.

Everybody will acknowledge that. But the

thing that is shied away from is the

fact that debt needs to be refinanced or

rolled over because it has term. In

other words, it's issued for 5 years or

3 years or 7 years or whatever, but it

will come back and needs refinancing. So

you need liquidity for that. So

basically what you've got here is this

nexus at the middle of the financial

system between debt and liquidity. And

the paradox is that debt needs liquidity

to be refinanced. So something like 70

to 80% of all transactions in financial

markets now primary transactions are

about debt refinancing. But the paradox

is that liquidity also needs debt as

collateral because something like 77%

according to the World Bank of all

global lending is now collateral backed.

So you've got this paradox and what it

really means is that new credit uh

relies on old debt as collateral. So you

get this sort of vicious or virtuous

circle uh it's virtuous until it's

vicious and it can go wrong from either

way. Either you get credit spreads

blowing out uh and term premier changing

as the left the right hand side says or

you get problems in the in the move

index bond volatility or sofa spreads as

of last year begin to blow out. Now the

ratio between debt and liquidity is an

equilibrium relationship and that's what

it's looked like over time. So this is

for the advanced economies. We just saw

the chart for Japan and for um China and

this is what the world has looked like.

Now this is dominated by the US and by

Europe uh you know obviously but

basically what you can see in this chart

is an equilibrium level of about 200%.

And then either side of that you get

fluctuations uh where you either see

financial crises at the top or you get

asset bubbles at the bottom. When

there's too much liquidity, the ratio is

low, you get an asset bubble. When the

ratio is too high, you get a financial

crisis. Now, you can see where we've

come from. We've come from this period

that we've labeled here, the everything

bubble. And that was a very curious

period, unusual period for sure because

it was one where the GFC and the co

emergency elicited huge liquidity

injections by central banks, all the QE

uh exercises etc. worldwide uh were

engaged. Uh you saw interest rates being

slashed to zero or even below that which

encouraged more debt ironically and it

also encouraged a term out of debt. And

now what you've got is that terming out

of debt is coming back into markets that

liquidity is beginning to be drained

into the real economy uh because of a

stronger uh pick up in real activity.

And so that orange line is starting to

go up quite significantly. And as it

starts to cross that threshold of uh of

sort of harmony, uh you then get into

the risk of increasing turmoil as you

get into that gray area that we've

projected uh through to 2030. Now, just

to spell out what that means in debt

refinancing terms, this is the debt

maturity wall for the advanced economies

according to our estimates. So this is

what you you see uh and this is

basically the amount of debt that that's

coming back into the system to be

refinanced every year. Now if that

doesn't look dramatic then that which

looks at the changes every year is more

dramatic and you can see the change

dramatically from the early 2020s

through to the late 2020s when the debt

maturity war comes back and that's the

risk that markets are running. Now if

you get a financial crisis, what is

going to happen?

Like every other financial crisis, the

only way you resolve it is by throwing

more liquidity at the system. And

because of the fragility of our

financial system because of all this

debt, central banks have got no choice

but to do QE time and time again. And so

you want an asset that is likely to

hedge monetary inflation. That's gold

and Bitcoin and other crypto.

>> Sup freaks. This rep is brought to you

by our good friends at Ligos Finance,

Celsius, BlockFi, FTX. They took your

Bitcoin and gambled it away. Ligos can't

because they never hold it.

Non-custodial lending on Bitcoin's base

layer. Your keys, your collateral. It's

verifiable onchain. Go to logos.inance.

Tell them that TFTC sent you. What's up,

freaks? When you take Bitcoin seriously,

you start with custody. You want to

control your keys, avoid single points

of failure, and make sure your savings

cannot disappear because you or someone

else screwed up. That is what Unchained

has been focused on since 2016.

Unchained is the leader in collaborative

multi-stig custody and Bitcoin financial

services that keep you in control. They

secure over 12 billion dollars in

Bitcoin for more than 12,000 clients.

That means about one out of every 200

Bitcoin sits inside an Unchained vault.

Their model is simple. You hold two

keys, they hold one key, and always

takes two keys to move Bitcoin, meaning

their single key can't access your

Bitcoin on its own. Just resilient

shared custody that gives you

institutional grade security while

keeping you sovereign. Onchain also lets

you trade straight from your vault,

access Bitcoin back commercial loans,

open a Bitcoin IRA where you hold your

own keys, and set up personal, business,

trust, or retirement vaults. They even

offer inheritance solutions built for

long-term hodlers. Or opt for the

highest level private client service

with Unchained Signature and get a

dedicated account manager, discounted

trading fees, exclusive access to events

and features, and much, much more. If

you want a partner that helps you secure

and grow your Bitcoin without giving up

control, go to unchain.com and use the

code TFTCT10 at checkout to get 10% off

your new Bitcoin multiig vault. That's

TFTCT10 at unchain.com.

Yeah, these maturity walls are a bit a

bit daunting to look at. And that and

that's um I mean

having been doing this for decades now,

is there ever been a similar situation

where you have a debt maturity wall

looking like this with interest rates? I

mean, they're back at historical norms,

but relative to where they were post uh

GFC and especially postcoid

stimulus, that's one thing I worry about

is just the the you look at the 10 year,

the 30-year where they are and you think

of the the magnitude of debt that needs

to be rolled over. Is is this unique in

the the history of of your tracking of

these metrics? Yes, quite quite simply

Marty, it is for for two reasons. I mean

one is that we haven't seen this

explosion in debt uh before. I mean if

you look at uh take the US take US

federal debt as this one example. Uh

you've had a situation where US federal

debt has increased I think I'm correct

in saying 12fold um since year 2000. Uh

I mean this you know not 12% 12 times u

you know even since the GFC I think is

up four or five times. Um and that's not

you know the US is not unique here. Debt

everywhere has gone up. So we haven't

seen this amount of debt in the system

that needs refinancing before is point

number one. Point number two is that if

you come back to the interest rate

question uh during COVID what happened

was that interest rates were slashed to

near zero in cases. Some some countries

actually went negative. Um and that was

a very unusual situation. Now years ago

when I worked at Salomon Brothers the

book that we were so we used as a sort

of bible of interest rates was a book

called the history of interest rates by

Sydney Homer and that book detailed I

think it's four or 5,000 years of

interest rate history and nowhere in

those pages do you ever get any

reference to zero interest rates. It's

never happened before. So this turning

out of debt and encouragement of debt by

policy makers at the time of COVID uh

was really unusual and it's caused that

skew of debt refinancing. Um so you've

got a cyclical pickup on top of what is

anyway a fast rising trend. So short

answer is no. It's never happened

before. Interesting times. You mentioned

uh the relative strength in the real

economy here in the US. Did last week's

GDP print coming in uh 50% below

expectations? Does that change your um

analysis of what's going on in the real

economy or you think that was simply

because of the government shutdown um

and you didn't have the treasury

pumping?

>> Well, I think I think it was the

shutdown. I mean, this this is a a way

of looking at that. This is measuring

the world business cycle, not just the

US business cycle here in orange. So the

orange line is basically all the major

surveys, the ISM, Tankan in Japan, um

the EO in Germany, the CPI in the in

Britain uh aggregated together by

economic size. The black line is the

index that I think Stanley Draim Miller

calls uh the internals of the market uh

which is basically in his view a much

better guide than economist to what's

going on. And this is looking at the

performance of cyclical stocks relative

to defensive stocks within the MCI. But

you can equally take the S&P 500 as a

similar benchmark. So this is just

looking at what cyclical stocks are

doing. So they're basically on a you

know they're on a roll at the moment. So

that's suggesting that uh you've got a

pretty decent economy coming through.

Now what does that mean? And I I venture

again to this point that you know all

money that's anywhere must be somewhere.

And this is a track of global liquidity

in orange against the black line which

is the world business cycle. So you can

see there I mean we've moved them a tad

to line them up uh exactly but they're

more or less in sync. And what that's

saying is that strong economies don't

always have strong financial markets. Um

you know particularly if central banks

are not doing that much within which

they're not anymore. And actually,

you've even got some central banks such

as the Bank of Japan or the Reserve Bank

of Australia that are actually hiking

interest rates and tightening right now.

So, what this is saying is that as the

real economy goes up, the black line

accelerates, so the amount of liquidity

in financial markets drops because of

these increasing needs for funding and

working capital demands and whatever

else. So, all money that's anywhere must

be somewhere. So, if it's not uh you

know, if it's in the on the black line,

it's not on the on the orange line. And

that's that's the risk that we're

running.

>> I love sitting down

and speaking with you because I think

you're very unemotional about this. You

zoom out and you just look at the

numbers and the the cycles and where we

are within these the these cycles. And I

think uh it's just fascinating reading

your newsletter and then juxtaposing it

to the headlines and what seems like u I

mean we're in a midterm election year

here in the United States. Uh the

economy is the number one focus of the

um the Trump administration.

I think beyond the economy, the the uh

the state of asset prices for for

boomers specifically who are looking to

retire. I mean, the voting sentiment

in November will be driven heavily with

by how the economy is doing and how

people's portfolios are doing. And it

seems like there could be a storm um on

the horizon for the Trump administration

or the Republican party if they want to

keep the House and the Senate in

midterms uh if this liquidity cycle

turns over. Um, and it seems like Scott

Bessant, um, Donald Trump and his

administration are are sort of

maniacally focused on making sure that

the economy and financial assets are

humming heading into November, but it

looks like they may be running into a

buzzsaw.

>> Yeah, I think the I mean I think the

Wall Street may have a may have an

issue. I mean, you know, what I would

say is that if you look at what the Fed

is doing right now, uh, it's a monetary

policy consistent at best with a

rangebound market. Uh, is not a monetary

policy that's capable of, I think in my

view, of actually pushing the market a

lot higher. Now, the chart that I've

just put up is trying to understand the

balance of policy between the Fed and

the Treasury in terms of liquidity

injections. And what this is basically

trying to evaluate is the strength of

stimulus that comes either from the Fed

directly which is the red area there

which is straightforward balance sheet

expansion traditional QE by the Fed. The

orange bit is the part that I sort of

tongue and cheek called not QEQE which

was the sort of sula tabler stuff the

Fed did. It wasn't fessing up to uh QE,

but it was doing it behind the scenes.

Things like the, you know, things like

changes in the uh in the Treasury

General account, things like um bank

term funding programs, you know, things

like this latest uh R&P, things like

changes in the in reverse repo

facilities, all these sort of factors

that were not headline QE, but added

liquidity is the orange bit. And then

the black part is what the Treasury does

through changing the tenor of bill

issuance. And you know, very briefly, I

mean, that's a sort of wonkish point,

but broadly, if you're issuing a 10-year

bond, you take up more balance sheet

capacity in risk terms than if you

issued a bill. So, in other words, a

bond is a lot a longdated bond is a lot

less liquid than a short-term treasury.

So if they're shifting towards the

treasury bill uh end of the issuance

calendar or spectrum, then they're

actually delivering more liquidity to

the market. So the black area is what

I've called treasury QE, which is what

the Treasury is doing by changing the

average tenor of debt held by the

private sector. So that's a liquidity

stimulus equivalent. And if you look at

what's happening, you look at 2026, I

mean, there's a cycle for sure. And that

cycle is picked up in the little window

at the top which is showing changes in

the ISM index in black uh with a six

six-month uh lag and that's showing that

you should be getting a strong much

stronger ISM through this year. You're

tracing out that orange line. But you'll

see if you look at the bigger chart

through 2026, the black area, the

Treasury stimulus by far and away

dominates what the Fed is doing. And

this is the whole idea that I think is

endorsed both by Bessant and by Walsh

that you're shifting the hose from the

Fed where it's undirected and soaks

everything to the Treasury where

Treasury spending is much much more

directed on areas they want whether it's

defense procurement whether it's

critical minerals whatever it may be.

interesting thing this in the context to

um I'm not sure if you caught it but

last year Richard Wernern's sort of

press tour particularly his conversation

with uh Tucker Carlson

>> about what actually drives the real

economy and his whole idea that that

credit creation from banks lending to

businesses is the type of sort of

monetary expansion you would want to see

because it actually gets that money into

the real economy

>> versus um just Fed QE which just pumps

financial assets specifically and it

seems like the MAGA Trump administration

is trying to affect that again via the

Treasury going back to the SLR ratio

changes and um their focus on resting

control of monetary policy from the Fed

and creating this sort of unified

um policy between the Fed and the

Treasury. Um, so it seems like we're

meandering into new territory in terms

of the and it used to be an implicit

independence of the Fed and the Treasury

and now they're seem to be um throwing

away any implied separation to saying

no, hey, we're we're going to try and

make it so the Fed and the Treasury are

moving in lock step.

>> Yeah, makes sense. I think that's

exactly what's going on. Yeah.

>> Yeah. What um what uh I mean moving away

from like a US focus towards Europe and

Japan specifically. I mean two different

beasts. Um it seems like Europe is not

doing well economically. I think they've

taken um the posturing of the Trump

administration to heart, saying, "Hey,

we're not going to put the bill for for

NATO and your defense anymore if we

don't believe that you're if we're

getting back um a commensurate amount of

value that we're putting in to this

agreement." Uh and it seems like

European governments are scrambling to

sort of rearchitect

how they um defend themselves and how

they operate their economies. And then

over in Japan, uh it seems like they uh

they are trying to defend or not defend

their yield curve as much as they were

in the past. like you said, they their

uh their policy right now is QT and it

seems like they have a pretty drastic um

domestic u sort of focus right now. And

it seems like they recognize that um

sort of enabling this global carry trade

has not worked out uh particularly well

for them and they're they're trying to

rearchitect what what they're doing as

well. also seems like there's there's a

lot of shifting sort of policies across

the world, not only here in the United

States.

>> Yeah, I think absolutely. I mean, I

think if you if you want to turn to, you

know, Japan, uh I mean, one thing to say

is that this is looking I mean, again,

this is sort of getting into the weeds

of the fixed income markets, but it's an

important point, I think, to to make.

And that is that if you look at the this

is the components the two components of

the 10-year Japanese government bond

JGB. And the one to really watch is the

orange one which is again looking at the

term premier. Now the term premier has

clearly shot up from those sort of low

levels that we're looking at back around

October of last year. But actually

they've started to come down

meaningfully since the election and it

looks as if the whole question about you

know concerns over Japanese bonds are

are disappearing fast and I think that

that's quite that's welld deserved and

you know my view has been always been

that you know we're going to see make

Japan great again before we see MAGA and

I think that's been the deliberate

policy if you need a bull work against

China's expansion you've got to

basically uh enliven the Japanese

economy and make it more robust. So, I

think that Japan uh you know is

definitely a very good area to invest

in, I think you're going to see some

pretty solid long-term gains out of

Japan. Now, if you come to this chart,

which is coming back to maybe one of

your questions about the u the yen carry

trade, uh the yen carry trade has

clearly spooked a lot of investors. I

mean, it's the sort of the big bogeyman

out there, but I think that you know its

impact is much exaggerated. Uh this

chart is looking at capital outflows

from Asia. Uh and by definition, those

capital outflows tend to go into the US

dollar. Uh there's nowhere else really

for them to go. And if you look at the

left hand side of that chart, by the

way, the black line is all Asia, and the

orange is China, the red is Japan. And

if you go back to the early part of the

chart 85 to through 1919 whatever

probably through till actually the uh

early 2000s uh that chart was dominated

by Japanese capital outflows. I mean

that's really the yen carriage trade uh

you know in its in its fullness. If you

look at the more recent periods,

particularly since 2015, the capital

outflows have been absolutely dominated

by China. And so it's China we really

need to focus on rather than Japan in my

view in terms of impact on the dollar

and financial markets. And you know,

China, as we know, is running, you know,

a huge trade surplus. It's got a lot of

capital inflow that it's got to try and

deploy. And the question is, what does

it do with that? Now, I think you know,

Marty, you quite rightly said that it

doesn't want to lean too heavily on the

dollar because that's where it's been

forced to lean too much before and it's

trying to diversify into other areas,

gold being uh, you know, one of those

areas and probably commodities on on

top. And I think what that tells tells

me is you're getting the world monetary

system kind of dividing into two uh very

distinct spheres. I'm not going to say

uh unconnected. I mean there may well be

bridges between them but broadly you've

got a Chinese system which is being

backed increasingly by gold uh and maybe

other precious metals or commodities but

that's what they're doing because

remember China doesn't have a big

international bond market that they can

lean back on. Uh no one trust Chinese

government bonds internationally and I

always got that as a benchmark. So they

need to use a benchmark everyone's

familiar with and gold is probably the

most obvious backs stop for the Chinese

system. And then you've got on the other

extreme you've got the US which does

have the treasury market but it needs to

broaden that appeal and so stable coins

are the route forward. And so I think

what you've got is effectively two two

monetary systems running in parallel.

The commoditybased one for uh China and

a digitally based one for the US and

that's how I think they're going to

evolve. So the growth of stable coin and

then by association other digital

currencies are really going to be

foremost in uh in terms of understanding

the international monetary system in the

future.

>> Yeah. And I forgot to mention it earlier

but uh as it pertains to China driving

the gold price and bitcoin suffering uh

over the last 6 months as gold is has

skyrocketed. I think another key point

to add there is that um yet again China

has come out and announced that they're

banning the use of uh of

cryptocurrencies and um there was a

report I believe in late November

earlier December of the CCP stepping in

to one of the provinces

and shutting down a large mining

operation that many were speculating

represented something like 10% of of

global hash rate uh on the Bitcoin

network. And so

>> yeah, this is this is very significant.

I mean, the Chinese issued um a notice

called notice 42 about two or three

weeks ago, which basically doubled down

on uh uh on control over crypto. I mean,

specifically US crypto. And you know, my

point last year was or one of my points

last year was that actually stable coin

are a huge huge threat to the integrity

of the Chinese monetary system. And what

they've now done is they've basically

outlawed all forms of crypto uh any form

of digital currency. It's illegal within

China. And uh they are basically putting

up a defensive you know great financial

wall if you like or great firewall of

China to try and protect the economy

against this threat. And I think it's a

real threat. So, you know, China

realizes that, but you know, what is

true for China is true for many many

other countries and so other countries

are going to, you know, feel the heat of

US competition on on stable coin. Now I

think the sort of the the way the

international monetary system is

evolving is an interesting one to ponder

and I'm not I'm not going to say that

I've completely understood it but I

would say if you go back to uh a very

sort of basic monetary system where one

used precious metals uh or banks or

whatever in that example um the money

you chose determined the payment system.

Okay. But in the modern world it's kind

of the other way round. The paradox is

that it's the payment system which is

almost determining the form of money.

And so if the US gets the architecture

of crypto payments correct and

established that will almost underscore

the role of the dollar in the world

economy. Yeah, it's uh it's wild times

and particularly if you look at the sort

of domestic swabbling on Capitol Hill

right now with this Clarity Act bill

which um which is essentially a fight

right now between the big banks and um

crypto upstarts for lack of a better

term like Coinbase who want to share the

yield that is generated from holding

short-term treasuries and reserves for

the stable coins with within customers

and you

Scott Besson and Trump basically saying,

"Hey, gentlemen, get to the table, get

this figured out because we need to get

this policy out there to begin sort of

building this architecture that you just

described."

>> Yeah, I think absolutely right. It's

absolutely essential.

>> Yeah. Um the and that's like when you

take this into consideration to that's

if China specifically is going pro gold

anti- bitcoin and other cryptos I I

would like to believe that the United

States should view that as an incredible

opportunity. Obviously they've

highlighted stable coins as a big point

of focus and they want to lean into that

as much as possible. And maybe this is

my bias showing, but I would hope that

they recognize the sort of geopolitical

gravity of China basically betting it

all on gold and the opportunity that

exists with Bitcoin specifically where

you have this um very similar asset uh

that is foreign fitted for the digital

age where that could be an incredible

counter to you know China leading into

gold is the US actually following up

with something like a strategic Bitcoin

reserve.

and basically signaling to American

citizens via dimminimous tax exemptions,

maybe capital gain tax exemptions that

that we should be building around

Bitcoin as well as the stable coin

infrastructure.

>> Yeah, I agree. I agree. Absolutely.

>> Awesome. Well, um, this has been

incredible. Thank you for your work. Is

there anything we haven't covered today

that is on your radar that you think

people should be paying attention to?

I think the one thing that I would say

kind of to round it off in in terms of

putting this together and it may come

back to the bond markets and sort of

judging what's happening to to fixed

income is to basically think of maybe

two charts and this this may be uh you

know a step too far into the weeds of uh

of bond market analysis. But this is

this chart is a is an interesting one

because it basically shows us that you

know we can talk gibly about trends and

you know the optimism about the long

term but it's the cycle that often sort

of skewers people and bites them uh in

places that they don't like. And this is

looking at the global liquidity cycle

again in orange but it's also showing in

black u the changes in term premium

worldwide. Now term premier as we went

into the risk premier uh that investors

demand to hold bonds over their term. So

it's effectively if you like the price

of uh of of safe assets uh inverted. So

if you basically see a very high um uh

term premier uh that's saying there's no

demand for safe assets. Whereas if the

black line in this case is low or

falling you're looking at increasing

demand for safe assets in the system. In

other words, risk uh people are starting

to price risk uh more aggressively. Now,

these two charts, liquidity and the term

premium are completely unconnected in

the sense they're very very different

variables. One's a flow of liquidity and

the other is a rate coming from uh in

from the term structure. Uh but they do

correlate pretty closely as one might

infer from what I've just said. So, if

you're looking at declining liquidity,

you're saying that systemic risks in the

system must be rising by definition

because there's less liquidity around.

uh therefore there's more odds of

default. Therefore, investors are going

to be less risk-seeking uh and they're

going to start to shift towards safe

assets and that's what the chart seems

to be telling us. So there's a

consistent story in the bond markets

that seems to be coming through and that

kind of reinforces the idea that bond

prices have been remarkably stable. Now

if you put that into what that really

means for the average investor, this is

showing the yield curve, which is the

way that you kind of evaluate uh the

bond market. So this is looking at the

spread uh across the term structure.

People normally look at 10 two but I've

looked at the average across all rates

here. So this is just a simple average

of the term structure slope and the

orange line is US liquidity. Now what

that says is that if this thesis whole

uh you know stuff I've been talking

about is is correct. What you'd expect

to see looking at that chart and

eyeballing it is the US uh term

structure. In other words, the yield

curve should flatten by about midyear.

And that would be a pretty good signal,

I think, of a riskoff positioning move.

Um, and that's what the liquidity data

is kind of telling us. So, if you want

to monitor what's going on, I mean, the

two best things to monitor outside of

Bitcoin, which is clearly, I think, a

barometer of liquidity generally, is to

look at the yield curve slope and to

look at things like the repo spreads in

the in the short-term money markets. Uh,

that's another sign of things going ary.

So, if you want some risk control, I'd

monitor those. But, yeah, my my

long-term view is that everybody needs

to have gold and Bitcoin in their

portfolios in some form.

>> Yeah. And just to make sure I'm correct

in believing this, the

trough of this cycle, liquidity is

drying up would be some in some point

next year. Correct.

>> I think that's correct, Marty. Yep. That

that's my best guess.

>> Awesome. Well, Michael, thank you for

the work that you do. Thank you for

taking some time on this Monday

afternoon, your time to to discuss all

this. I think it's uh incredibly

fascinating uh very high signal. And

again, I I really appreciate your

ability to zoom out, look at everything

unemotionally, and just look at the

data. I think it's very important to be

able to do that.

>> Well, that's great, mate. Always a

pleasure. Thank you.

>> All right, that's all we got today.

Peace and love, freaks. Thank you for

listening to this episode of TFTC. If

you made it this far, I imagine you got

some value out of the episode. If so,

please share it far and wide with your

friends and family. We're looking to get

the word out there. Also, wherever

you're listening, whether that's

YouTube, Apple, Spotify,

make sure you like and subscribe to the

show. And if you can leave a rating on

the podcasting platforms, that goes a

long way. Last but not least, if you

want to get these episodes a day early

and add free, make sure you download the

Fountain podcasting app and go to

fountain.fm to find that. $5 a month

gets you every episode a day early ad

free. Helps the show gives you

incredible value. So, please consider

subscribing via fountain as well. Thank

you for your time and until next time.