Detaching From Emotionally Immature People with Dr. Lindsay Gibson

Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. I'm your host, Laura Reagan, and today I'm so happy to be joined once again by Dr. Lindsay Gibson. Lindsay, thank you so much for coming back to Therapy Chat today.

Oh, it's a pleasure to be back. Thank you, Laura.

Yeah, I'm so happy to be talking about your newest book, "Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People." I'll just hold it up for the camera. And, um, and why it's so difficult to disentangle from emotionally immature people. So, before we get into it, though, will you just tell our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Sure. I'm a psychologist and I've been a psychotherapist for well over 30 years now. Um, I also do coaching, and I have, I think it's five books now. Um, probably the, I just can't seem to stop doing it. Um, probably the best known is "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents," and that turned into a series. And then this most recent book, "Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People," kind of broadens that out. We go from talking about the appearance to everybody who is emotionally immature in your life. So, uh, we talk about people in general that have emotional immaturity. And it's a topic that I just, like, can't get enough of because it, it's endlessly fascinating to me how different these people are from people who are just adequately emotionally mature. Like, I don't think that there's, there's not a, a continuum in the sense that, you know, all the way at the bottom, they're the emotionally immature people, and then all the way at the top, they're the emotionally mature. You know, we're on a continuum, right? And emotionally im-, emotionally mature people, when we get sick or tired or stressed, we become less emotionally mature in our functioning. So we can, you know, that marker can move. But there are a few characteristics of emotional, uh, immaturity that are really kind of hallmarks. That if a person has those characteristics, we might consider them to be, you know, sort of, um, an emotionally immature personality. Because if you have adequate maturity, you're not going to have these problems. You're not going to have these characteristics. So we, we, we can talk about that more, you know, about what those characteristics are. But, um, I just find it fascinating that these people often cause so much pain, pain, and so much frustration in the people that they're in relationship with. And I just sort of, you know, made it my life study, uh, to help people understand what's going on with that. Because you can really feel bad about yourself and even wonder if you're crazy or if you're inadequate because of the difficulties there are in relationships with emotionally im-, mature people. And what I found is that when people get a little bit of information about where they're coming from and how they're functioning and why, uh, it's just so empowering. I mean, they, they get back a sense of, ah, you know, that's what's going on. Now I understand why they're this way. And it gives them, uh, some observational distance and it allows them to really see the situation much more objectively.

Yeah, well, thank you. And it is confusing when, and, you know, I don't know, I guess we do fluctuate in how mature we may be feeling and given stages and points in our lives. But, um, can you help us sort of, can you paint a picture of what the characteristics are of someone who kind of tends toward that being emotionally immature, um, so people can, you know, if for anybody who's not familiar with your work, just have a sense of what we're really talking about?

Yeah, um, sure. Uh, I, I just want to mention that it's absolutely possible for a person who, in their emotional development, has stayed kind of, uh, immature, they haven't continued to grow up, uh, emotionally. It's perfectly possible that in other areas of their development, they did grow up. They, they successfully achieved a certain amount of, um, development and maturity in those areas, like their intellectual development. I mean, you could be a college professor, you could be, uh, running a successful business, you could be very intelligent, you could be a physicist, okay? That has nothing to do with your emotional maturity. And similarly, a person can have really good social development. You know, they can be the most popular person in the group, they can be well thought of, they can be a leader in the community. But when they get home, and they're in the, you know, kind of the, the intimate, um, uh, realm of personal relationships, and they get stressed, or, you know, somebody, uh, doesn't want to do what they say, then you're going to see this immaturity start coming out in the, the privacy of the home or when they think no one's looking. Yeah. So, yeah, so anyway, um, but I just wanted to say that so that people understood that they, they are confusing people because they can be so well-functioning in other areas. And they can have their good days and they're, you know, more emotionally available days, too. So people get very confused with thinking, well, you know, they're not like this, you know, every second of every day. Sometimes, you know, it feels pretty good with them. But let's talk about some of the characteristics that really make it tough, uh, to have a relationship in which you can be yourself with them, okay? And you can feel like they are actually seeing you and attending to you as a real person. Because emotionally immature people have a big problem with even recognizing the subjective experience of other people. Um, I mean, they see you, they interact with you, but they don't have the kind of imaginative, um, experience of, of what it must be like on the inside of you. In other words, their empathy is usually pretty poor. Um, and that's again, a lack of this imaginative capacity that we have. If you're adequately emotionally mature, we can sort of, um, put ourselves in the shoes of the other person. We can imagine how something's going to affect them. And that is something that comes very naturally, very automatically when you have matured to a certain level in your emotional development. But for emotionally immature people, people, they, they just don't get it that there's an inner world. Um, they don't understand that they're not attuned to it. Uh, they tend, we had talked about this earlier, but, you know, they tend to get very concrete. Um, you know, dealing with what they would consider the facts, um, dealing with the physical, the material, the tangible. And, you know, stuff that goes on inside you, the em-, emotional, even, even the spiritual, even the, uh, you know, the, the sense of, um, art and, uh, you know, kind of uplift feeling, you know, these, these other wonderful inner world feelings, they don't get that. That's not interesting to them. They think it's a waste of time because there's no utilitarian value in it. And there's no utilitarian value in any of us having, you know, an inner world. But if you want to have relationships, if you want to have meaningful work, if you want to be fulfilled in your life, you have to have that inner world. So the emotionally immature person kind of comes at life in a very egocentric way, very self-centered. They know they're real, but, you know, other people and things that go on outside of them just aren't that interesting to them. All roads lead back to them. And if you've ever tried to have a conversation with them, you'll find that even if they appear to be interested in you at first, it won't be long before they have found a way to bring the topic back to the thing that they want to talk about or something about themselves. It's really very, it's a very reliable indicator of emotional immaturity. They also have very poor self-reflection. They just don't think about their behavior. And like I said, they don't have the imagination and the empathy to have a sense of how they're impacting other people. They just don't get it. And you can't change unless you have some kind of self-reflection. And Laura, by self-reflection, I mean, I don't mean that they know, for instance, uh, you know, they say something like, oh, I'm, uh, I'm so bossy, or I'm the oldest child, so, you know, I'm, I'm bossy. They might know some things about themselves, okay? That's not the same thing as self-reflection. Self-reflection, because they'll say, yeah, I'm so, I'm so, I know I'm so bossy, I'm a brat. Are they thinking about really what that means? Uh, are they intending to change that? Absolutely not. They just know it about themselves. But without that self-reflection, we can't change ourselves. We're not interested in changing ourselves. And if you can't do that, you can't apologize, you can't make repairs in relationships. Um, it's, it's a real, um, death knell to intimacy in a relationship, which makes a lot of sense for an emotionally immature person because they are really sc-, scared of emotional intimacy. They don't dig it at all. Um, they like to keep things, uh, on the level of events, actions, facts, plans. They don't want to go into, let's talk about how each of us is feeling. Let's share our thoughts. Let's get to know each other on a deeper level. Their view would be, what for? Like, why? Why are you doing all this touchy-feely stuff? Um, well, we're doing it because if you do have the capacity for emotional intimacy, you do want to be known and you want to know other people and you want to see and be seen, you know, so you have that, that wonderful feeling of connection, like, you know, we got to know each other a little bit better. But the emotionally immature person is not into that at all. Um, they tend to see it as, what I feel is what is real. So I don't really need to do a lot of an investigation or listening to you because I pretty much know what I know about you, and I'd be happy to tell you. And we don't have to waste time with all this communication stuff because I know I'm right. That's the emotionally immature position.

Mhm. And it makes it extremely frustrating and, uh, demoralizing when you're trying to have a deeper relationship with a person like that. And then finally, um, the emotionally immature person has a, a really, um, sort of idiosyncratic approach to reality. Anything they don't like, anything that makes them nervous, they will tend to deny it, miss it, or distort it. They interpret reality on the basis of how it makes them feel. So if you tell your parent, for instance, um, maybe they're coming, they came to visit you in your home, and you say, um, you know, Mom, don't put that down the disposal, you know? And Mom says, oh, well, I just must be the worst mother ever. Um, you just, uh, I can't do anything right. Why are you so mad at me all the time? Because the mother felt stung that she was being quote reprimanded. And so on the basis of her feelings, she comes out with these ex-, with this extreme reaction. But what's really going on is that she has interpreted reality on the basis of her vulnerability to rejection or shame or whatever it is. And she's come back in that very emotionally reactive way. And meanwhile, you just didn't want the corn cob, because, yeah, you're like, don't break my sink because we need to be able to run water through this thing.

Exactly. Yeah. But so, it, so it's often, you know, that's what, what gives rise to that feeling like, you know, you're walking on eggshells, or, you know, you have to be very careful with them because they get so reactive, right? And it's like, um, in, in my experience and, um, relating with someone who is how you describe, there's not, there's not like a sense of openness about different perspectives or so anything that's being said that's like being curious about a different way of looking at it or just even expanding on an idea is seen as kind of like an annoying extra talking that doesn't need to be happening.

I love that. That is so, it's annoying extra talking that doesn't seem to be happening. That's it. Exactly. So then you become like the annoying mosquito that they're like swatting away. And all you're trying to do is like, actually have a conversation that isn't just them making an announcement or pronouncement about something. And you, it's like, I'm just trying to be here too, as part of this relationship. It feels like.

Exactly. Let me in. Exactly. Yeah, that's really well put. I'm just trying to be here too. And from the other person's point of view, from the emotionally immature person's point of view, uh, it's kind of like, well, why are you trying to be here too? I'll tell you what you need to know. I'll, um, I'll lead us. I'll inform you. I'll tell you what to do next. It's like, why are you trying to like insinuate yourself into this relationship? And of course, we know that we're trying, we're not trying to, you know, wiggle our way into something. We're trying to share or talk or, you know, have some kind of relation-based communication and and connection. But from their point of view, yeah, I mean, it does, it feels like a waste of time because they already know what they know, and they already know how you should be, and they, they're happy to tell you that. But they, yeah, I mean, curious or opening up about, you know, new things about each other or trying to have a, a discussion that holds no appeal to them at all. In fact, it's it's frightening. Yeah, because they feel or they need to feel like they know everything already. And their worldview is extremely rigid. Um, you know, if, if you think of like, you know, a circle is 360 degrees, you know, their little arc of perception is like three degrees. And inside that, they know everything there is to know about everything. And so when you try to come in and say, you know, oh, there's this whole other circle, there's this whole other area, I would like for you to get to know me better. Why? They would think, why are we doing this? We already know. I already know who you are. You're my son, you're my daughter.

Yeah, yeah. And then when you're talking about when it's a parent that's like this and the child is constantly challenging the way they expect things to be, the way the parent expects things to be, the child is doing things that the parent wouldn't have done, didn't, didn't imagine could happen. You know, it's like this, why are you doing this to me? Like, but, you know, I can see how when the child is saying like, I just, I'm like, they call bids for connection, right? It's just a way to get, yeah, just for you to feel that I'm also here and not just you being like in your head.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that need is often the basis of a lot of people's anxiety and, you know, kind of, um, sometimes I think it's actual depression, but other times it's just sort of a low, disappointed, kind of demoralized feeling of having, you know, kind of beaten your head against a a brick wall trying to have more, uh, depth in your relationship with these people. And it's, you know, it's, it, it's very hard on a person. If, if you have the capacity, if you're interested, and you have empathy, and you want to relate to another person at a deeper level and be known at that deeper level, it's, yeah, it's very, very disappointing, very demoralizing to have someone come back, uh, with that attitude of not having really any curiosity about anything in depth. And they jump to a conclusion really fast. Um, and it's very hard to communicate with people like that.

Yeah, that part about jumping to a conclusion, too, with parenting, it's like, you are just a demanding child, or you're, you know, you're like, the way that there can be a very simplistic. I know that I'm this way. Like, I want deep connection with people. And I have family members who, let's say, not to call anyone out on the podcast, but let's say one of my caregivers is really a lot like you're describing, just this sort of lack of, they're caring, but they have a lack of really understanding about anyone else's inner world. So they'll say things like, do you think that people just get depressed and they're just depressed and they can't not feel that way? And it's like, yes, I mean, of course, it can change, but I do believe that that's real, that people can feel that way. And then they'll say, I don't know, I guess I just have had a really good life. I just don't understand that. And, and then I know objectively that their life really wasn't like, all that good growing up. So it's like,

Right. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because we process, uh, sad feelings or disappointed feelings, you know, any of the, the kind of the, the deeper, darker feelings that give us depth in our personality, okay? That's processed mostly on the right side of the brain. Okay? Um, on the left side of the brain, there, it's much more, you know, kind of, um, superficial. Uh, I just don't think about it. I, I move on. Uh, you know, there is no reflective depth. There's no, there's no shadowing. There's no, yeah, perspective. It's, it's just like things are very much on the surface. And of course, if you see the world that way, it's really easy to to make snap decisions and to see things in black and white, right and wrong, good and bad. Which is a nightmare when you're a child and your parent is sizing you up like that, you know, these very extreme categories based on whether or not they like what you're doing. That's, you know, that's hard on the self-esteem.

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah. And, and if you, if you, see the way I look at it is, in order to be a whole person, we really are equipped and made to use both our right and left hemispheres of our brain. You know, we need, um, you know, some problem-solving, we need some categorizing, abstract, sequential thought, we need to be analytical, that's all great. But we need our depth, man. We really need to be able to have intuition, have imagination, feel our way into situations, you know, have an instinct about something, have a sense of self that's just deeper than what my social role is. So ideally, I mean, I mean, they've done so much research on, uh, brain functioning and what happens when people have, uh, injuries to one side or the other of the brain. And, you know, so it, it's kind of been proven that if you're not using a part of your brain enough, you're really missing out on the full, uh, yeah, the full experience of being a human being who can be in relationship with other people. I mean, it's a big, to me, it's a big deal. It isn't just that that these people are, you know, kind of difficult or, you know, they're a little bit frustrating. It's a whole thing about how their mind and how their brain works or doesn't work. And that's probably related to some kind of trauma, um, having to do with attachment or security. And that all has to come from the right hemisphere of the brain. I mean, you know, babies and mothers relate to each other through right hemisphere resonance or kind of, uh, you know, that attunement, okay? But if you have problems with that early in life, and maybe that, that mother isn't, or, or that mothering person, I should say, maybe that person isn't sensitive, and maybe they aren't attuned well, over time, that child might learn, oh, you know, the right side of my brain is not a safe place for me to hang out because I go into all these feelings and I get these intuitions and I, you know, and people look at me like I have two heads. So maybe it just would be better if I became like them and stayed over here in the left hemisphere more, you know, be very logical, be very, you know, categorize black and white, um, like that. So it, to me, it's, it's a very big deal because it means when you're emotionally immature, that you're not using the full complement of what your brain is designed to do, which is to use both sides and both types of abilities.

Yes. I, I, I really see what you mean. And I, and I'll say for myself, like with having someone like that growing up, and then my other parent was much more of an emotional person, sensitive, so they were complete opposites. And, um, for me, there was like, I think I was very emotional and sensitive, and then became very kind of locked down and like disconnected from my emotions as a way to cope. And then, you know, it was a very difficult process to come back to feeling my emotions. But when, because, you know, I even noticed how in like, in my marriage, I would be when taking care of little kids and working and all the things, like things can just become very transactional. Like, it's like, oh, who's picking up this? And what's for dinner? And how are we, you know, do we need to go to the grocery store? And like, you know, just sort of passing, but without that deep connection because it's, you feel like you don't have time for it, or everything's, it's too overwhelming. When you start to tap into what you feel, it's just so flooding, there's so much there. But on the other side of it, with doing all of that work, the richness and depth, the wonder and awe, the joy and beauty, and the, you know, like really having a life that's feels like a tapestry that's just woven together in a beautiful way, even though there's a lot of pain, you know, but there's also joy and happiness and sadness and fear and anger and all the feelings. It just feels so much more alive to be that way.

It is. I mean, it is so much more alive because you're using everything in yourself, which was designed to be used. It was designed to be, um, experienced. Not only because it's nice, and not only because, you know, these feelings are, are, uh, wonderful and meaningful. Um, you know, there's that's a big word with this, I think, that the meaning comes from all these, um, values and and abilities of the right hemisphere. We, we, it feels meaningful to us. And if you don't have that, then you begin to lose your sense of, uh, you know, basic meaning in life. And then that leads into a, you know, particular kind of depression that is, you know, I mean, it's very hard to to come back from that if you get too far away from, you know, those more internal gifts that we all have.

Well, I appreciate the way you described the, the characteristics of someone who is emotionally immature. And I hear, and we've talked about not only today but in our previous interview too, how, um, it can change. It's not a fixed state of being. Someone who is emotionally immature can change, right? That can change for them if, if they have self-reflection. Um, you know, when people ask me, you know, can they change or will they change? Yes, if, if they are capable of self-reflecting, or, you know, something happens in their life that sort of makes them self-reflect. You know, because just like they can't get out of that box that they're in, they're not just going to say, I want to become curious about myself. It has to be something.

Yeah, it might, it might be external. You know, it might come in with a spouse saying they're leaving, or, you know, they might, uh, you know, end up on the wrong side of the law, or whatever, and some judge says, you know, you need to be in treatment. I mean, there are ways that they get to being self-reflective. But I just wanted to mention that because that's such an important criterion for whether or not a person will change.

Yes, they have to see that there's something missing to want to make a change.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, why would you? Right? Especially if you already think everything you're, you're doing is right, and it's the other people that are the problem.

Exactly. So in relationship, and I, I won't go into this part too much because I feel like it's interesting how even though I have a parent who's like that, and my other parent is different, um, you know, I'm, I didn't, I had an interruption in my emotional development and then was able to work with it, you know, because something didn't feel satisfying to me. So I guess there was enough of the budding self-awareness that was coming to the surface for me to catch that. But, you know, it's, it's hard when you have that upbringing, and then your siblings might be the same way as the parent was, or that's a way that they've all adapted to, you know, the way the parent was. So, um, it can make it really hard to have close sibling relationships, close friendships. Um, and I guess you don't have to choose to be friends with people who aren't interested in deep connection, but your siblings are like, they're already there. Like, you didn't really get to choose them, right? So it can be really hard to be in relationship with people who are functioning in that way and don't see anything wrong with it. And, you know, it's like, like you mentioned early in our discussion today, it can feel, we can gaslight ourselves, like, what am I doing wrong that this person, you know, I'm trying to let them know what I need in this relationship, or how, what's not working for me, and they're just like, why are you talking to me? You know? So that's where I feel like your book here is so beneficial, this particular newest book, in how to disentangle from people who are emotionally immature, because it's like, you try to figure out how to set a boundary, or what to say, and the, the person just kind of doesn't, it doesn't seem to register. They either ignore it. What I said to you before we started recording was like, they just kind of override what you said, disregard it. And then, you know, for me, when that has happened, I'm like, what's, what am I getting wrong here? What, why can't I understand boundaries? Why can't I set boundaries? It's like, really, that it makes it kind of brings like that child part back from me, like where I'm like, oh, I'm lost. I have no idea what to do now. I tried something, it's not getting me anywhere. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, um, yeah, this, this is a topic that's really near and dear to my heart because I think that again, if, if you're just looking at it from a standpoint of, uh, you know, sort of cognitive or cognitive behavioral, uh, approaches to situations like this, it would be, you know, set the boundary, tell them, you know, um, it's taken care of. But yeah, that's how it sounds. That's what they say. Set a boundary. Okay, yeah, I'll set that boundary and then my problem be solved.

Yeah, the problem is that the other person doesn't hear it or they don't respond to it. And so you set the boundary and they go on like you haven't said anything, or they say, oh, don't be ridiculous. Um, or they dismiss, yeah, they dismiss it in some way. I didn't do that, he didn't do that, he didn't mean that, I didn't mean that, you know, they, they dismiss and they distort what happened because they're really not interested in learning about how it felt to you or why you would want to set this boundary. That is not interesting to them. They don't get it. So when people, um, are given that message that you just need to set the boundary, I think they also need to be given the message that you may end up feeling very, um, uh, frustrated, um, like you can't make yourself heard, you can't make yourself understood. They might resist listening to anything that you say. I mean, I feel like as a therapist, I've got to be aware that that's probably what they're going into when we talk about setting boundaries, and they have to be ready to feel defeated. It's like when, uh, when we talk about setting boundaries, you can get people ready for that by doing, uh, imagined encounters where they, you know, talk to an imaginary person, or it could be their boss, it could be a parent, but they get some practice in actually saying things to them that are setting boundaries. Or you can roleplay with them as, as a therapist, but you're trying to get them sort of ready to, to speak up, to, you know, take a more active position, which is hard with emotionally immature people because they shut other people down really fast. I mean, some of them are very assertive in the way that they shut people down. Other people shut them down by dismissing them or acting like they're being silly or, you know, just disregarding it. But I always let people know that their job is to just try to set the boundary. It's not their job to guarantee that the other person hears it or respects it. That's another task, okay? But being able to say it is moving yourself out of this kind of enforced passive position that emotionally immature people often put their family members into, like you're supposed to be passive and go along with whatever I think is right. But when you start to set boundaries, you are really moving into a much more assertive and active, uh, relationship visa vie them. You just can't depend on them to hear you or want to understand. That is not within your control. And so when people come back, uh, you know, in a session with a kind of a hangdog look and that, you know, like, I tried, I tried, but, you know, they just, they just blew me off. It's like, yeah, of course they did. That's what they do. And of course, you're, you're feeling bad about yourself, but let's look at what happened. And I tell people a lot that, you know, if a person wants to understand what you're saying, it really doesn't matter how you say it, okay? Uh-huh. If a person doesn't want to understand what you're saying, it also doesn't matter how you say it, okay? The re-, reception of your mess-, message depends on the other person's worldview and the other person's receptivity, and that you don't have control over. So boundary setting probably needs to be repeated, you know, with as little reactivity as possible, over and over and over again. And it pops up over here, and it pops up over there, and you repeat the boundary, and you repeat the boundary. And your goal is to try to not be reactive because it's frustrating when you've told somebody something or you've explained, you know, we, we always think that an explanation is going to solve the problem. Not if the other person's not listening. Yeah. Um, not if they're not wanting to step inside your shoes. It doesn't work that way.

Yeah. So is it, is it possible? I mean, is it possible to have boundaries with people who are like this? And I guess, like, what do people end up doing? Like, is it, is it like you just have to break things off? Some people do that. Although I'm never the one to encourage anybody to move into estrangement because I think there's so much good practice, uh, that can happen as long as you're having some contact with the people. I figured that there's a lot of good growth that can, can happen when you're in therapy and you still are in touch with your, your family or your person. Um, so I'm, you know, I think people sometimes get the mistaken idea that I'm all for estrangement. I, I'm not. Um, I am if the person's being abused, or if there's something about that person that they just can't handle. Yes, there are conditions. But my client, it's the one who's going to decide that, not me. I'm not pushing one way or the other.

Yeah. So, um, so when you're, um, going to, uh, when you're going to make a boundary or set a boundary, I encourage them to think about it in terms of you're not doing something against that person. You are only trying to get space for yourself. Always look at it in terms of space. It's not that you're, you're, you know, shutting them out or, um, not letting them do something. It's that you're just trying to get, you know, space for living, space for yourself. And you have to make it very, remember how concrete and, and, you know, and specific they are. You have to make it something that's pretty simple, that doesn't have a lot of explanation. I mean, you can try to explain it once or twice or 10 times, but if they are not interested, like I said, and they're not listening, that needs to be abandoned. And it needs to be short and sweet and repeated at infinitum, that this is what I can tolerate, or this is what you can do in our house, or this is what I want to do about, you know, Thanksgiving or Christmas. Um, and then that needs to be repeated many times because, you know, remember it's like three degrees of the circle. They're only focused in on what they want. And they really do hang on to that until you have repeatedly set that limit in a very specific kind of way. And don't try to give them insight or understanding about the reasons behind it. That just confuses them. It makes them, they have no idea what, why you're saying this, why you're doing this to them. So it just works better if you keep it clean, um, keep your reactivity down, and repeat, repeat, repeat. And then when you feel deceit and, uh, you know, bad about how they didn't listen to you, that's what you expect. That's them. It's not a call for you to go passive and give up on yourself. It's a call for you to get specific and definite and repetitive with them, which are all active coping mechanisms, okay? Yeah. You don't, it's not good to give up. And when you keep at it in a non-reactive way, sooner or later, I, I think a new norm gets set up because you just don't do it. And if you say you're not going to do it and you don't do it, a new norm eventually gets set up.

Yeah. Well, do you think that, so with specifically talking about emotionally immature people, as you're defining them here, do you think that, um, they will honor the boundary that's set if you continue to say, no, I'm doing it this way, or whatever?

Yeah, I wouldn't call it honoring because that's that suggests, uh, an empathy or a respect for the other person that I don't think is probably there. I think that over time, it's, it's kind of like, just think about, like, little kids, you know, they don't say, oh, yes, mother, I understand that that, you know, this is important to you, and therefore I'm not going to do it anymore. They're going to keep trying until they learn that no matter how many times I go on about this, I'm not winning. And so then a new norm gets established. But it's, it's not easy, and it's not something that comes about through an explanation. You know, the four-year-old doesn't say, oh, now I understand, Mom. Yeah, you don't want to do this because this is bad for me. I get it. No, they're like, I want. Right? And you just have to keep saying no. But you don't, don't have to get emotionally reactive to it either.

Uh-huh. Yeah. It's, that's tough. I mean, I think managing the the feelings that come up when you know you're, you know, it's like that dynamic of one person being just like, no, and I don't get why you don't understand this, and the other person's like, ah, they're having like all these feelings and they're like, I'm trying to reach you, I'm trying to reach you. And it's just like, you know, I'm like turning away, like, what's your problem? Stop stirring the pot, you know, or whatever.

Right. Everything was fine before, right? You're talking, you're talking again. There's too much words. I'm trying to stay in my own head and do what I want, and you're kind of this annoying mosquito.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, that's it. But I, I want to like amplify one point you said that you don't encourage people to stay in relationships where they're being abused because, um, when I, when I interview people about this type of dynamic, um, I often hear some feedback about, you know, sort of like that there's more concern for the person, the emotionally immature person, than the person that is affected by their behavior. And, you know, what I mean like, why, why is it okay for them to act like that? And, you know, like that it's not, um, sensitive to the experience of the other person in the in the relationship. And I'm not saying I don't think anything in our conversation is like that, but I just want people to hear, hear very clearly that, you know, you're not, neither of us is saying people should or have to stay in a relationship with anyone who's being abusive towards them. You don't have to keep trying to set a bound-, a boundary with someone who's being abusive towards you if you, you know, if you don't feel safe.

Yeah. And, and even, um, I mean, that's that's a pretty clear-cut situation, but there are other situations where, you know, I've had people who just can't stand to be around their parent. I mean, they experience the parent as creepy, or they experience the parent as, you know, going across boundaries or being intrusive. And, and that's, you know, maybe it's not technically abuse per se, but it's, they just don't like to be around it. And so what I will say to people is I will just bring up the the fact that they don't, don't have to have a visit right now, or they don't have to respond right now. And I, you know, kind of leave it at at that. That they can take breaks. They can, uh, you know, not have contact for a while. Like, I, I had a, a client once that, um, had a new baby. And, you know, she was, it was everything she could do to keep her sanity with this new baby. And her father, who was a very, was a very disruptive influence, was insisting on visiting, okay? And she really needed to have, like, again, space. She needed to have her space with her family and her baby and not have to deal with Dad's stuff. Yeah. And so, you know, that was a situation where she couldn't let him in, didn't want to let him in. And so you have, you know, a break or a, a boundary set up that, you know, we're not doing this right now.

Yeah, I love that. That you're you're describing the sort of the way the relationship is in some with someone who's emotionally immature is that they're taking up all the space in the relationship, and there's really no space for you to be you. And that the to disentangle is to allow for space where you get to be you, and then you can decide how you want to be in relationship with them.

Yes. Yes. Because, um, the emotionally immature person entangles with other people because they don't have a really good sense of self. They kind of merge with other people, or they just assume other people are like them. And they assume that they're going to be there to, you know, help them with their emotional stabilization or shore up their self-esteem. I mean, that, that's the entangling part. It's like, I need you to make me feel good about myself and to keep me, you know, feeling calm. I need you to be the person who makes me feel that way. And so if you're tired of doing that, and you want to stop doing that, that's something that is very hard for them to, uh, let go. You know, to, they're not going to release you. Say, oh, honey, I'm so sorry that, you know, I put you in this position of always having to take care of me emotionally. They have no idea that they're doing it. So, yeah, it's, it's hard to, um, it's hard to sort of remember that you have to take care of yourself and maintain a connection to yourself first and foremost before you, you know, step in to help anybody else. And there are lots of times, like I say, where you need to create that space where you can have a connection with yourself, because people who lose themselves get depressed. Um, they don't function very well. Um, it's not a good scene.

Yeah, so true. So true. Um, well, you know, again, and I appreciate the work that you've been doing to really illuminate this, this dynamic and help people who are in relationship with emotionally immature people to kind of have a, a perspective of why it feels like this in their relationships and what they can do about it. And you're, you're approaching this in so, so many ways, like you said, this being your fifth book. And as we talked before, there's like two more in the pipeline already by the time, you know, by the time this airs, well, people almost be able to maybe pre-order some of them. So thank you for everything. And also the, um, brand new course you're doing, too. You're doing a course on this book, right?

Yes. Um, um, I think that started, uh, couple of weeks ago. Um, it may, it may have, um, it may have closed out its sign up at this point, but they're going to, you know, continue to do, um, uh, signups for it. And that's been fun because it's been a way of me just talking to the people who are interested in this whole topic. And we talk a lot about the impact of emotionally immature parents on their adult children and what you can do to, uh, address that. So it's, it's, it's sort of a, it's like a, uh, kind of like a talking video book, yeah, where I get to, you know, talk directly to people about some of these things, just like what we're doing here.

Yeah, well, I know that that is, I just recently found out about it, so I started, I shared it like this week, but I don't know, um, hopefully people will still be able to find out when it's going to be opening back up again. Um, but Lindsay, just thank you so much for everything you're doing to help this change because I think there are a lot of people who are raising kids who didn't get what they needed when they were young. And, you know, we all wanted do better when we know better. Well, hopefully it almost all of us want to. Or for those of us who do, it's really, it's really valuable what you're putting out into the world. And I'm very grateful that you took the time to come back to Therapy Chat today.

Oh, well, thank you for having me. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you, Laura.

Oh, thank you. So sweet to say that. And, and so where can people find all of your stuff?

Yeah, um, on my website, which is Lindsay Gibson psyd, um, dot com. That's my website. Uh, they can have find information about the books and there's some of my writings and things like that. And then, um, on TikTok, I am doing a lot of, uh, speaking under Academy of Self-Help. Uh, there's a, a group of, uh, of us there, therapists who are, um, doing a TikTok presence. And I'm going to be coming more into social media, um, in the next few weeks. So that'll be something that, that'll be coming up. I've actually managed to not do that all this time, but now I have, I have someone who's, um, uh, helping me with that. So that'll be coming up.

Fun. It's such a good way to reach so many more people. And it's amazing how people are using TikTok and Instagram videos to, yeah, they're, it's really good stuff. I mean, I, I've gone through it and I love TikTok and I go through and it's like, that's really good. I know it's, you know, some in our field are really dismissive of what people are finding on social media, but I think that that's a very reductive way of looking at things because, you know, we think, oh, social media, it's bad for everyone. Well, no, there are a lot of people who are accessing information that they would never have had a way to find if not for social media. So, yeah.

Exactly. And, you know, I, I think the way that it's presented in these, you know, these short little, you know, bite-sized pieces, it's very digestible, you know, and, uh, and it, and it sticks with you. You don't have to go through this, you know, pages of explication. You know, if some gets, gets that nugget of truth into a, you know, 30-second or two-minute thing, it like really sticks with you. Never forget it.

I know. And sometimes they're funny, and sometimes there's music and dancing, and so it's just like, can't go wrong. What's go, what's right.

Well, thank you again, Lindsay. I'm so grateful that you came back to Therapy Chat. And I hope when your next books come out, we'll have you back again.

Oh, I'd love it. Thank you so much, Laura.