Transcription
Maria Karina Mashado, welcome to BBC News and thank you for joining us. And Yoges, thank you for joining us. So, congratulations on your Nobel Peace Prize and you are now here. How do you feel?
I am, I first of all, I'm very grateful, of course, to the Norwegian committee, the Nobel, because of this unique recognition to the Venezuelan people that has brought so much hope and enthusiasm and even further unity in our country. And I'm still trying to believe that I'm here in Oslo at last with all of you and and with my family, which I had not seen for a very long time.
>> How was that to not just see your family but to hug them and to smell them and to touch them again?
>> Well, for over 16 months, I haven't been able to hug or touch anyone. So, it certainly has been a very profound, uh, sentiment. Suddenly, in a matter of a few hours, to be able to see the people I love most in their eyes and touch them and cry together and pray together. And then I had a chance to to meet also with hundreds of Venezuelan people that are outside the hotel and to feel that, you know, warm one again after such a long time. It's, you know, it's the reason why I do what I do. It's because I trust the people.
>> And they've given you things.
>> Oh, yes. You know, these, these just were given to me by Venezuelans that were outside. And and it's always the same gesture. People take their rosaries from their own neck and they put it on me. And they have stories. One of the women down outside told me, George York, that, um, actually, I think it's this one that that she has brought it with her 20 years ago when she left Venezuela. And now that she wanted me to have it. So imagine all the energy that this brings to me. I, I think I have over 7,000 or 8,000 rosaries that I've received all around Venezuela. No.
>> And Jorgen, how is it for you right now that it's actually happened? Because there were moments this morning where we weren't sure whether we would be sitting here together.
>> Well, not only speaking on my own behalf, but on behalf of the committee and I would say the people here, Venezuelans, Norwegians, many, many more. It's emotional, um, having you here after that journey, but to have you finally here, having your daughter representing you in the best way in Oslo City Hall today, but then in the middle of the night to have you here, it's incredible. Um, it's hard to describe with words what it means to the Nobel Committee, um, and to all of us.
>> You must be so proud of your daughter today.
>> Oh, I've been proud of her all her life and and my sons as well. You know, they have taken a really hard part of all this struggle. No, when when they graduated, because I had to send them out of the country, they didn't want to leave, but I had to. I forced them to go because I couldn't do my my job and at the same time protect them. So, you know, they were the only ones in their classes at graduation to be without their mother. And she married. I wasn't with her. And my son just married and I wasn't with him. So it gives me a big sense of guilt. But at the same time, I have so much support from them and they are the reason why I do it as well. Of all of his own children, which I today feel are my own as well. So, so I'm very proud of all of them because for for what they do and they have done for this cause.
Were you thinking of those other daughters, those other mothers today in Venezuela and around the world who have not had this moment that you've been able to have, who have been separated?
>> Look, I believe that the main, uh, longing that has brought our country together after so many years that the Chavista regime has tried to to divide us for for for all reasons, for race, religion, uh, origin, and and so on. What brought our country back together is that we want our families back home. We want our children back home. So that teared down all differences because, you know, we were united by values. So of course, coming here, I was thinking on this immense possibility that I was going to have. And I was thinking of the mothers of the political prisoners with whom I talk every week because we, we are in touch all the time. And, uh, but I know that, uh, soon they will have this immense, you know, joy that I had today, a few hours ago.
>> I have to ask you about the version of the story that is now widely circulating about your escape. It's being talked about here in Oslo. It's in some press as well, that you had to wear a wig, a disguise. You went through 10 military checkpoints, a fishing boat to Curaçao, a private jet Miami to Oslo. What can you tell us about what must have been a frightening and dangerous escape from Venezuela?
>> Well, it's important to understand exactly what you're saying. I mean, Venezuela has turned into a nation, a country in which the state applies terrorism. The regime that has control of all institutions has applied state terrorism towards innocent people and committed crimes against humanity. And everybody that dares to speak out to defend any of your basic rights takes a huge risk and probably ends in prison. As, as you said in your incredible speech this morning, Duran, just for posting news about the Nobel Prize, you will get in prison. And if they go looking for you and they don't find you in your house, they will take your family, even children in prison. So they had say that that I'm a terrorist, that I'm that I have to be, you know, in jail for the rest of my life. And they're looking for me. So certainly, uh, leaving Venezuela today in these circumstances is very, very dangerous. So, I just want to say today that I'm here because many men and women risked their lives in order for me to arrive in Oslo. And, uh, I came here on behalf of them and the millions of anonymous Venezuelan heroes to receive the prize and to take it back to them because it's theirs.
But you arrived with nothing, no luggage, just the clothes that we see you in.
>> Well, this actually was the clothes I was wearing in that last part of the trip. I haven't had a chance to to even take a bath. [laughter] [gasps] Look, that time. What time is it?
>> It's 20:03 in the morning. I can tell you.
What about the next thing for you though? Because you know that the Venezuelan government is now calling you a fugitive, that you, that you will be arrested if you go back. Do you intend to go back to Venezuela?
>> Of course, I'm going back to Venezuela. That the Venezuelan government would have disappeared me if they found me when I was in Venezuela. And I know exactly the risks I'm taking. And what I've said for to the Venezuelan people from the beginning is I'm going to be in the place where I am more useful for our cause. And until very short time ago, the place where I thought I had to be was Venezuela. The place where I believe I have to be today on behalf of our cause is Oslo.
Have you had any conversations with anyone, whether it be Marco Rubio or President Trump, anyone who has given you some assurances about your safety?
>> Well, I'm not going to answer that question for obvious reasons. But I have to say that we are very grateful, very grateful to President Trump and his administration because I believe that what we have said for years, trying the world to understand what was happening in Venezuela in terms of was the build-up of a criminal structure that had destroyed destroyed every single right. No, humanelyating people, dividing society, and and given away our sovereignty to criminal organizations. And this is something that has an impact beyond our frontiers. You know, look what's happening in Venezuela in terms of the destabilization that regime has has generated in in whole Latin America and now even the United States. So we had said for years, we need to address these, uh, regime not as a conventional dictatorship, but as a criminal structure. And the incentives aren't the same. And, and from a perspective of law enforcement approach, I believe that finally, that it's taking place. And, and, and I think the world has finally understand that what we are doing is to save lives.
You do have though, we understand, quite a close relationship with Marco Rubio. He is a big admirer of yours. Has he told you, has the US told you to be ready to have a plan so that you could take over, take charge?
>> We need to be ready regardless of what we are told by anyone.
>> Are you ready?
>> We are ready. And we are ready not only because we have the teams and the plans for the first 100 hours and the next 100 days, putting always the people in the center, because that's how we got here. And I have so much trust in what we have learned as a society that even though it's going to be a really, really complex process because the regime certainly has destroyed all institutions and we have crisis, a financial crisis, a security crisis, an economic crisis, a humanitarian crisis. But there's this consciousness that we have fought so hard to to conquer freedom that the society is going to care for it. And I, and I know people understand that we're going to go through really hard moments, that we're going to have to work together really hard, that not all problems will be solved immediately. But we will feel in our bodies and in our souls what it means to be free again.
One of the important things that you've promised though is justice, particularly because there have been crimes, as you say, committed against many people in Venezuela, and that includes Nicolás Maduro. So is there a compromise that you would be prepared to make around his future in order that he leave?
>> Maduro has been offered throughout these years numerous possibilities to to leave, uh, power in a peaceful way. When we won the election 16 months ago by landslide, uh, we offered a possibility of a negotiated transition. He not only rejected it, but decided to unleash the worst repression wave we've seen in our history. We're talking about over 2,500 people detained, among them children, women that were tortured, abused.
>> What does this mean for his future? What would be acceptable for you?
>> Well, so what I'm saying is that afterwards, we offered many other possibilities, you know, throughout all this time, telling that we are willing to sit down for a peaceful transition in which we were, um, able to make compromises and and and and offer guarantees. They rejected it. And I believe it's not only because of his own position, but you have to understand that there are mafia groups, criminal groups, uh, that, uh, have you confronting interests today. So some of them are, you know, pushing back Maduro from, uh, accepting that he's, this is probably his last opportunity.
>> So what is that opportunity? Would, would you accept a deal whereby he went into exile somewhere that he didn't face justice?
>> Look, it's absolutely inconvenient to to mention, you know, concrete options. Uh, what I say will depend on how we get to that negotiation process. If we do, because if he refuses, then he, he understands that that he will be in a much difficult situation than in which he's right now. So it is the moment for him, absolutely to go to understand that this is serious, not only on behalf of the Venezuelan people organized and and pressing and united, h it's also in the military and the police in which there are real fractures as we speak, and also the international community, which is finally putting a lot of pressure on Maduro.
I mean, you mentioned the moment, and that is how it feels for so many, and particularly now that you have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the momentum that that gives your cause. But we also know about the American military ships that are, of course, out of Venezuela, very close. What has been happening there? But also, President Trump has talked about the possibility of strikes on Venezuelan soil. And it is difficult sometimes with President Trump to figure out exactly what it is that he means. But is that something that you would support a US military strike on Venezuelan soil?
>> Look, uh, President Trump has offered Maduro, and he has said it publicly several times, to to go through a a peaceful process, uh, to dismantle the criminal structure, and, and has insisted that, uh, the criminal activities has have to stop, which has not happened. On the contrary. So we didn't want a war. We didn't look for it. The Venezuelan people want to live, you know, in democracy and freedom, justice. It was Maduro who declared war on the Venezuelan people with state terrorism and abroad with narco-terrorism.
>> But is that a reluctant yes then, that that you would support that?
>> What we have asked, what we have asked, but, and I've been very insistent in this, is the international community to help us stop the flows of resources, criminal resources, which are used by the regime for repression of the Venezuelan people or innocent Venezuelans. Where those resources come from, drug trafficking, gold trafficking, even human trafficking, and, and many of these resources end up in, you know, the financial systems of democracies in in Latin America or in Europe. And, and what we're asking, what we have asked is, we need to cut those inflows. And a, a very important part of those resources come from the drug activities. So we clearly believe that an international coalition to dismantle this industry should be put in place, not only by the United States.
>> Jorgen, would you see there being any kind of contradiction there, that if we see some kind of violent takeover or some kind of action inside Venezuela, that we would then see as the head of state a Nobel Peace Prize winner? You know, this is a prize that upholds peace.
>> This prize is given to Maria Karina Machado for her efforts for democracy and for a peaceful transition. And what they have been working on, striving for years and years and years, is exactly that, a peaceful transition to democracy. It is important to remember who has the responsibility to make that happen. Unfortunately, the opposition is not in power. The power lies in the Maduro regime. They have the responsibility to make sure this is a peaceful transition. So our prize has been given to the work of the opposition, to Machado, uh, for their peaceful activities for many, many years, and particularly in the 2024 election.
I wanted to ask you again about President Trump, because the US is so important. You know that he can be unpredictable, that he can vacillate, he can sometimes change his mind. At this moment, when, if we think back to when Maduro came to power, people said he's not going to last six months. Here he is still. What if right now President Trump's attention goes elsewhere and nothing happens despite all this momentum, despite all this hope that people have that you've seen tonight outside? What if nothing changes?
>> Things have already changed. Venezuela is not the same country that we were two years ago. Uh, we have never seen a people so united, organized, and decided to go until the end. We have never seen the regime as weak as it is today. And we've never seen the international community so determined. Why? Because this is not, not only about Venezuelan lives. This has to do with the national security of the United States and other countries in the Western Hemisphere. Venezuelan migration has turned into the largest one in the world. The day Maduro goes, you will see millions coming back. That's what everybody said outside. I want to go back home now. The day Maduro goes, we're going to turn Venezuela from the criminal hub of the Americas into the energy hub of the Americas. We will build a security shield. We will force agents from other authoritarian regimes like Russia or Iran or Hezbollah that operate freely in our country in partnership with Maduro. We're going to get them out of our country. So from every perspective, it is something that is crucial for the United States and the region.
But just finally, have you been given any assurances by President Trump, by the US, by anyone, that there is going to be this change that you talk of, that will give people that hope, that that it is going to happen?
>> My assurances come from within, because I know my country. I know our people. Venezuela will be free, and it will be the biggest historic moment in in the Americas in a very long time. I mean, this will have, you know, waves of democratization in the region. We will see Cuba, we will see Nicaragua, we will see other countries that already are looking at us and say, how, how have you done this? Because they have told us all the time that it was going to be impossible. It was going to be impossible to unite the country. Impossible to defeat Maduro. Absolutely impossible to prove it. It was going to be impossible for me to be here tonight with you. So, we're going to make it that possible. And, and I think that this will be also a huge contribution to humanity, because at the end, our fight for freedom, it's a fight for peace, and, and it is an act of love, as I said today.
Maria Ko, thank you very much for joining us on BBC News. Jorgen, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.