Transcription
Hello everyone and welcome to blogging theology and today I'm delighted to welcome back Dr. James Table. You're most welcome, sir.
Thank you, Paul. We've done a few of these. It's been a while, but this should be very interesting.
So, yes, it will be. I'm very much looking forward to this. Now, for those who don't know James, he's uh retired in 2022 as a full-time full professor from the department of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte in the US, where he taught Christian origins and ancient Judaism for 33 years. He is currently a distinguished fellow in the faculty of humanities at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
Now, in this particular podcast, we've been looking at his new book, just published, Restoring Abrahamic Faith. This is the fourth edition of this book, Revised and Expanded. And I'm just going to read a couple of sentences from the back cover just to give you a sense of where this book is coming from.
"Restoring Abrahamic faith attempts to set forth in a clear and engaging style an exposition of the ancient Hebrew faith as revealed in the Hebrew Bible, what Christians call, obviously, the Old Testament, with a particular emphasis on Abraham, Moses, the Torah, and the prophets. It offers a compelling proposal for the 21st century, namely a return to the ancient paths of the Hebrew faith with Abraham, the first Hebrew, as a prime model."
Now, that's just the first sentence or two, but uh, it's a very good introduction into uh, what this book is about. Um, it's a fourth edition. What you've obviously had three previous editions. What meant, why did you seek to re-edit or republish this particular book of yours?
Yeah, great question. The uh, first edition was a pamphlet. It was 48 pages.
I, I just actually, it had the same divisions of God, the way, the Messiah, and so forth, the plan uh that we'll get into. And the second edition was a spiral-bound uh expansion of that. I think it had a 100 pages. The third edition actually was a book. Uh, I don't have one right here, but it, it, it wasn't as uh, it was thinner than this, for one thing, but this one has an extensive bibliography uh, notes. I wouldn't call it an academic book. There's a sense in which I took off my academic hat, as we say.
Yeah.
Because people for years had said, "Well, what do you think? What do you believe?" And it's not really a confession of faith as much as an exposition of the orientation I have towards the ancient paths.
Meaning that subsequent forms of both Judaism and Christianity in the period I study, and I'm ancient world, not an expert on Islam or any any later period academically, but I spent my academic career on uh, ancient Mediterranean, the early Roman period, the late Roman Empire, and so forth.
So, uh,
And I, I am often asked, uh, what, what, what do you think? And if anything, I have said to students, "Look, you know, that's not what the class is about. We're studying ideas, and you know, my beliefs are not really part of uh, this class." But sometimes I would say, "You know, if you want a name, call me a Hebrew." And they go, "A Hebrew? What's that?" So I kind of teasing them a bit, but finally I decided to publish the full thing, you know, broadly to the world. It's, I, I did use Amazon. It's a good way to get it out there, and it's, uh, so that's why there are four editions, or this is the fourth. It's really a different book. U, the reason I kept the title was for some continuity, but also, if you buy the third edition, last time I saw it, it was like $900 on Amazon because they're out of print and people are trying to act like it's rare. I think I run their market by putting this out. So, anyway.
No, but thanks a lot. So let's just go through a few of the uh, the book is very carefully structured. I've read it from cover to cover. And so one of the, the importance earlier sections is what you call "The Way." The Way. Well, what is "The Way"? Uh, and why is it so important?
Yeah, "The Way" is a term that I picked up, u, really from Qumran, you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls, they talk about "The Way," but all the way through the Hebrew Bible, you talk about "The Way." The early Jesus movement called themselves "The Way." And it comes from a verse in Isaiah 40:3 about a voice calling in the wilderness, "Prepare the way of the Lord." So it's talking about the redemption and how God, if you go from chapter 40 to 66 of Isaiah, you sort of have the redemptive plan.
Of what Hashem, or the Creator, uh, we'll just say God, or the One, you know, many. We have a chapter on God, too, where I go through all the names of God and so forth.
But "The Way" then would be what Jeremiah calls "the path." Uh, in chapter 6, uh, I put it right at the front of the book. He says, "Stand at the crossroads." I love the metaphor because it fits us today. We have this crossroad of information. "Stand at the crossroads and ask and seek." So you actually look for the ancient path wherein is the good way. And then it talks about having rest for your soul. Very interesting.
That, uh, so there's this seeking quest, and it's a quest that Abraham was on. He leaves, uh, it's a metaphor, I think. He leaves, uh, Babylon. He leaves Ur of the Chaldees, as it's called in the book of Genesis, and he goes to "a land that I will show you." So he's on a trip, and that's why I chose this Robert's painting. You see where, where is he headed?
He, he, he doesn't know, uh, where he's headed, but he's, he knows that he believes in this one Creator God, cannot be represented by any image, any idol, really, even a description. You can say merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love, but these are characteristics. But in terms of the one he's following, uh, he hears a voice that bids him to, uh, leave, uh, behind civilization. And when he crosses the Euphrates, uh, he becomes a Hebrew, at least that's one etymology, "to cross over." So he's now crossed over. So metaphorically, too, these are very powerful things. Many of, uh, human beings, they seek the path, they want the ancient path. We have a lot of, uh, Bible students that are questers, and a lot of your show has to do with that, to talk about, "Well, what do we really know academically and linguistically and historically about these sacred writings of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, and so forth?"
So "The Way," simply put, would be the way revealed in the Torah and the prophets. It's, it's simply an ethical, uh, what are the standards that come out of the Torah? How are they unique? You begin with the Ten Commandments, I think, but as you know, in Hebrew, it's not really ten commandments. Uh, you know, we can never change things once people begin to use them. It'll always be the Ten Commandments. But it's very interesting in Hebrew, it's the "ten words." Devarim.
And "words" can mean "matters." Like we could be talking now, and you could say, "We're talking about a dvar, a thing, the topic that we're discussing, Abrahamic faith." That's a dvar. So the 10 devarim are the 10 matters. And then we know, as we begin examining, particularly the ones that we know by heart, you know, "There's no other god but Hashem," the, the one God, the, the nameless one, Yod Vav Hey in Hebrew, uh, Allah in in Arabic, and most Christians just say "God," you know, just the word "God." But, "Don't steal." So that would have to do with the whole matter of property rights. It's not literate. Oh, I just, I'm going to. It literally sets up a culture that will work and bring blessings to everyone.
Yeah.
And so it's not a command so much like, "Oh, you gave a command this," or "You gave a command that." That's not the idea. And so, and then, uh, "adultery." "Don't pollute, uh, the sacredness of of sexuality, of marriage." Well, what is all, what does that mean? Well, it would be the whole realm of family and human. So we expand these into the matters. Now, how do we expand them? By reading other places in the Torah where they're explained, and particularly the prophets, who constantly rave against the people of their day and say, "You lie, you steal, you commit adultery, and then you come into this holy place and say, 'We are delivered,' and yet look at your behavior." So most of the Hebrew Bible, it's reused against the, the people for not following.
So, can I just pause on one on that word or commandment, as, uh, as it's commonly known, "You should have no other gods before me"? Is this not, as some have said, an example of henotheism rather than monotheism? Henotheism, also meaning "one" Greek for "one," but it's "our god must be followed." It's not denying the existence of other divinities or gods, but simply that our one is the one who, who we should, is the best god, the right god to follow. Would that be a fair understanding of that first word/commandment, or am I reading too much into it?
Uh, it's one way to take it, but, and it's the tendency of academics to go that way, so that you kind of minimize to the Hebrews, "Our God, they, we usually say Yahweh, he, he's the one, and I know you've got your gods, but our God's bigger than your God and better than your God." I think that does shortchange a little bit the concept that's behind it. And I go into this in other words. If you go just to Genesis 1, uh, you have "the beginning," and then you have "the heavens and the earth," and "God." So you have a time, "in the beginning," you have "God." It's Elohim. Uh, Allah and El and Elohim are all related. You know, one's Arabic, one's Hebrew, and it means "the force." So when you say Elohim with a singular verb, "in the beginning, Elohim created" (singular), you're saying "the force of all forces is personified now with that one word Elohim," and then he did (singular) this, and then "the heavens and the earth" are over here. So there is, from verse one of the Hebrew Bible, a distinction between what is made and created and what always was. In other words, you could almost draw a line. Uh, there's the force of all forces, and then there's what emerges. Now, if there are other gods or powers, and Paul says, for example, "There are many so-called gods and powers, but for us, there's one God." I don't think he's, he basically also says, "But an idol is nothing." You know, "we know an idol's nothing," and so forth. So I think it's not as simple as saying, "Okay, we have the right God, and ours is bigger and better than yours, and I know you have gods too." But, but they do recognize that other nations have gods, and they believe in them, and they have temples, and they make claims about their gods. So there is that sort of one-upmanship. But I think philosophically, the Hebrew Bible is pretty profound about this. Uh, in the scene of Moses, it's very clear because if you're going to name, like, how would you name the force of all forces? What name would you give it? Because names are always, uh, limiting. You know, a chair, a table, a human, anything you name.
And you say, "Well, I don't want to name a thing. I want to name something that is not a thing but behind everything." Well, if it's behind everything, it's not a thing. What would I call that? And God says to Moses at the bush, "Hashem, I will be what I will be." Wow. So, "that's my name." You, so your name is like "being," or "you will be." And then if you take the, uh, YHWH or Yahweh, "ye" he will be, "hov" is present in Hebrew, and "haya" will is was. So you're actually calling your God "the one who is and was and is to come."
And you say, "Well, what's the name?" "I just gave you the name." So it's as if, uh, you want to ignore that, uh, concept because it's very deep, uh, by saying, "Oh, well, he's the one God, and they can't worship any other because it's sort of tribalism," or "That's not it."
Yeah, it's the implied accusation. It's mere tribalism. I said a good response. Good response. I just want to ask about this name Yahweh. I, I've heard it said, I think Bart Ehrman said, actually, who actually teaches at the same university that you are at.
Well, he's at, he's at Chapel Hill, and I'm was at Charlotte, so.
We're two hours apart, but we're good friends. We don't agree on a lot of things, but we're good friends. Yeah.
Um, yeah. But he, he once said, if I'm not mistaken about this word Yahweh, "We don't actually know how it was pronounced. The vowels have been added. We have the consonants which you just, uh, uh, mentioned." So the, the name itself, of course, was never spoken publicly anyway, except on that one occasion each year when the High Priest in the Temple might, um, but apart from that, no one, no one, it's not like people walked around saying this name. So the name has been lost, is it not the case, to human memory? And so this is a scholarly reconstruction of what probably was uttered, but we don't know from any specific text, do we? What, how it actually sounded? Would that be true?
That's probably the case. We're not sure when it went out of use. U, you know, that's certainly the tradition later within Judaism. But it could be that in ancient times it might have been spoken. Uh, but we, we don't have the vowels. You're right. It's they where they put vowels in where people can read it, and you substitute and you say "Adonai." But "Adonai" means, uh, basically "Adon" is "lord" or "sir," and, uh, "Adonai" is "lord of lords." So "lord of lords, king of kings, God of gods." Uh, even the phrase "God of gods," that does, "the great, the mighty, the awesome, the God of gods."
That's a good way to answer your question too. The Elohim of all the Elohim, meaning even those Elohim would look to this one force. So there is an exclusivity to it.
I think Bart's just saying that we, we don't know. Most scholars go for Yahweh. I would go for YHWH because I, that's just my proclivity. "Ye," "Hov," "Haya." But it's a made-up word to simply say, uh, "will be, was." So if you say it fast in English, you've got the name "willisw was." Sounds kind of comical, but that's what you're saying.
Never occurred to me. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh.
But that's why Moses said, "Well, that's, but I want your name." And he goes, "I just gave you my name. I will be what I will be. It's future."
Imperfect. Hebrew doesn't have a future. It's imperfect. Well, so the becoming one, the one who is whatever, one is. And this is a new idea rather than a localized divinity of a mountain or this or that idea of, you know, male and female powers or the power of the ocean or powers of fertility. This is, this is skirting all that. And remember, I'm trying in this book to take the cream of the essential concepts, not denying that as you go down there, different particularities where somebody might not have that exact view. Like I think there's a passage, is it in Micah, about "In the future, we will serve the Lord El" (meaning caps, you know, the, the Hashem) "and the nations will walk in the name of their gods." You know, kind of like, "Okay, uh, that's that's the plurality you're talking about." But you also have the image of all nations. Isaiah 2, very important verse.
"In the last days, all nations will flow to Jerusalem, and they will say, 'Come, let us go up to the house of this one God, that he may teach us his ways.'" There's "the way" again. "And walk in his paths." A way, a path. Now, that's, and then it talks about peace. That the nations will beat their swords into plowshares, their spears into pruning hooks. And even the United Nations outside, where all the flags are, has the Isaiah wall of all things. Isn't that remarkable? The Hebrew prophet is giving the. It's almost a travesty because the United Nations is just so crazy, uh, by most judgment. I mean, I hope they're trying, but, but they quote that. And in the back, the Russians, of all people, the Soviet Union in the 1960s, gave a statue of a man beating a sword into a plowshare. I don't know if you've ever seen that. And you think, and this was communist, atheistic Russia. Here's what we would like to give the UN. Uh, we just decided to use an image from Isaiah. I just think it's astounding. So that's an image too, where, uh, the future goal of history is that nations will come up, uh, and learn the way of this one God. So it does have this exclusive idea, but they're doing it voluntarily. Notice they go, "Come, let's, let's go up and learn the way," and they go up to Jerusalem, which becomes the center of this education. So, you know, that's a dream of Isaiah. That's a vision. U, it's, it's out there, and even the United Nations uses it as an illustration. Let's don't have wars and killings. Let's have peace and justice filling the earth. So.
Indeed. And the, the another section, the latest section of your, uh, book, uh, this one, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, is called, is entitled "The Way." And, um, on page 67, you, you say, "Decalogue faith for all mankind." Decalogue is another way of talking about the 10 words or the 10 commandments. Different words. Yeah. Deca meaning 10.
"To restore Abrahamic faith is to advocate what might be called decalogue faith for humanity" (brackets Isaiah 2:3). "If I were to choose a slogan of biblical faith, this would be it." Uh, "Although the Torah was given once for all by Moses to Israel at Sinai, it is essentially universal, that is intended for all mankind." I want to come back to this in a second. We're looking about the teaching of Jesus and what, how Christians understand Jesus as Messiah and what his ministry was and how the later church, you know, propounded his own understanding of of of faith. But just coming back here, I, I, when I read the, the, the Torah, the, the so-called Old Testament, I don't get the sense that the, the Torah is for all mankind. I get the sense it's, uh, the covenant, the covenant gift of God to the Israelites. They are to, they are enjoined to obey so they may have life, as it says in Deuteronomy. I don't get the sense it's given for humanity. So how do you go from the particular to the general in your book?
Yeah. The way I do that is to look at the purpose of it being given and what the Israelites are told at Mount Horeb or Sinai, people call it. I, I like the word Horeb, uh, the mountain of God, uh, in the desert there. Uh, people dispute the location. It doesn't matter for what we're talking about today, but it says, "You will be a kingdom of priests and a special treasured nation as witnesses to the one God." So they're given, uh, yes, they, they're given a covenant or an agreement. And non-non-Jews, I don't like to say non-Jews because "Jew" is just the term for one tribe, the tribe of Judah, that was not exiled and came, a handful came back from Babylon and so forth, but we should say Israelites, the, the tribes. There were 12 tribes. They were given special, and but you have to say, "Well, what for?" Is it just to say, "Oh, we've got it and nobody else does?" I, I just quoted Isaiah 2. No, it's to be, uh, a light to the nations, an example that would then draw all the nations. And that's the program you get in the chapters I mentioned of Isaiah 40 through 66. And what it says even at the end, the last chapter, this pretty well tells the whole story. "Heaven is my throne. The earth is my footstool. What is the house you will build for me? To this person I will look, this human being." Each human being becomes a potential sanctuary for the divine. "To him who is of a poor and contrite heart and trembles at my word." Uh, and the word "tremble" there is the idea of just absolute awesome, uh, a feeling of great awe and respect. It's not to be terrified. It, it's what, uh, it's, it's a right kind of, uh, that you might feel at the Grand Canyon or something, or other kinds of things, space, when you look and you just think, "This is so vast." And in those chapters through Isaiah 40-66, you get this idea, uh, "You are my servant Israel."
Yeah.
Uh, but for what? And it goes on to say, "Well, my servant Israel is blind and deaf." Well, if they're blind and deaf, they're not doing much. And then it, the rebuke that the faithful servant, the remnant, will, uh, proclaim light to the nations, that the nations will know that I am God. There is none beside me." And that literally means "sitting." You can say "besides me," like "other than me," or "beside me," picturing God on the throne, and next to God would be a partner. And of course, Islam is very clear about that. No, no, no partners. There are not two powers in heaven. That was the way it got talked about by the rabbis. "Are there two powers in heaven?" Because within Judaism, there were some streams of mystical Judaism that began talking about, uh, another, almost you could almost call him a little Yahweh or something.
Yeah. Yeah. Literally.
Where in the Gospel of John, there's God, and then the Logos, the Word. And this is actually a Greek idea. It's not a Hebrew idea. It's the idea that God is so unapproachable and and perfect that to express himself in the world, he would need to send out this other force that would almost, would then also be God extended. And that's never in the Hebrew Bible. God simply speaks to Moses. He doesn't use a partner or something. Now, he does have messengers. They're called malakim, but that's different. None of those messengers are ever to be worshiped, you know, or seen as God in the Hebrew Bible, I'm talking about. So, um, I think, uh, it's universal. Now, if you take the Sabbath, it's very clear.
Yeah. I mean, just, just on that very question of of the Sabbath, because you, you discuss in great length, very delightfully. It's one of the sections I, I most enjoyed, how the church, the Christian church, changed the day of rest, which of course is the Sabbath, because the original followers of Jesus were Jews or Israelites. They were not Gentiles. They were not, so they were followers of the law as as faithful Israelites. How did the emerging church later change the day of rest from the Sabbath to Sunday? Because Sunday is not the Sabbath. And very few people ever ask this question. I'm sure perhaps some Christians may think when reading the Bible, "Hang on, Sunday is not the Sabbath." How did that happen? And maybe they don't have a really a clear, a very clear answer. But you do discuss it in depth. So what is the answer? How, how did the Christians come to change the day of rest?
Yeah, it's a big subject. It has been researched very thoroughly. Whole books written on it. I put them in the in the footnotes and so forth. You'll be able to look these books up. But it's, it's a, it's a slowly, uh, emerging change that comes. What happens is in the New Testament, uh, it's not present. Now, people would dispute that, but, you know, like I'm a New Testament scholar. We'd have to discuss the pros and cons, but I'm giving you my view today, an overview with what I've concluded because you have clear references. Let's just take the Gospels. And the Sabbath was near, and after the Sabbath, on Sunday. Okay, after the Sabbath, the seventh day, on Sunday, early, the first day of the week. So if you say, "Remember the Sabbath, the seventh day is sanctified," that's in the all the Gospels. It's clear what the Sabbath is, the Sabbath. Sunday is the day they found the empty tomb. And according to some of the gospel accounts, you and I have been through some of those, they're not so easy to interpret. But in the earliest account, which is in Mark, uh, they come, and they don't have visions or anything, they just are told that he has risen,
Yeah.
As he said, and you will meet him in Galilee. And then later, you get stories of them going to Galilee. That's in Matthew. And some are doubting. And then as you go on, you get more and more firm beliefs. But in Mark, which I always begin with, Mark, it's our first story, the earliest. You can kind of build these and see the tradition developing. It's very clear that Sunday is the first day of the week.
Now, what does that mean? It means that early followers, uh, by the second and third century, began to think of that as "the Lord's Day." They called it "the Lord's Day." They didn't call it the Sabbath. They were very clear. The Sabbath is the seventh day,
And the first day is "the Lord's Day." And they even called it "the eighth day." And they said, and they began to develop a theology that's not in the New Testament that, "Well, the eighth day, that's kind of interesting. Like the old had seven. That's the Jews, right? They're, they're limited. They're Old Testament. And now we have an eighth day for Christians. Isn't that wonderful?"
Well, the week doesn't have an eight days. It's always called the first day, but it becomes the eighth day, meaning of the new covenant.
And there were gatherings on Sunday, uh, apparently, but actually the earliest reference is in Pliny. He is a correspondent of the Emperor Trajan. This would be around 110 CE. And he writes the emperor and he says, "I've tortured a bunch of Christians to try to see if they're loyal to Rome, and they won't worship your image and the image of the Roman gods, and so I'm suspicious." And he's actually executing some of them. But he does give the results of his examination. So this is very chilling. You don't, it's hard to read. You know, "I tortured a couple of the slaves to be sure that they were telling the truth." So you don't, you don't want to think of that. It's horrible. And, uh, he said that all they said was, uh, "We meet, uh, on a fixed day before sunrise, and we take, uh, bread and wine, ordinary food, not the flesh and body of a god," because they've been accused of cannibalism, you know, eating their god. And then we sing a hymn, and then we disperse." So it's a workday. So we do know by the second century, some Christians, they're probably keeping the Sabbath.
Uh, especially if they're still under the influence of the Jewish Christianity. James, the brother of Jesus, we've done whole programs on him, is in charge. The Sabbath is the Sabbath.
Now, how do you ground that? Is to go back to your original question. If the Torah is given to Israel, and the Sabbath is to them, it's revealed to them, but it's much older. That's why you need Genesis 1 and 2. And what Genesis 1 and 2 says is that God blessed the Sabbath for all humankind. He blessed it. So if you bless it and make it holy in Genesis 2, uh, it's seen as universal. And then when we have two versions of the Ten Commandments, so-called "Ten Words," one is in, uh, Exodus 20, the other's in Deuteronomy 5. Okay. In, I think it's the, I can't remember which is which now, Deuteronomy or Exodus, one or the other. One says, "I gave you the Sabbath because I, you're my people, I led out of Egypt." That would be your question, you know. But the other one says, "I gave you the Sabbath because in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and blessed the Sabbath." So you see it has a universal aspect. And then in Isaiah again, I keep going to Isaiah 40-66. Everybody should study those chapters. They're so important for this whole vision of the future. And guess what? "Blessed is the man, the, the stranger, the non-Jew, who lays hold of the Sabbath." No, people would say, "Oh, you mean converts to Judaism?" There's no conversion to this. This is talking about an individual turning to God.
Lays hold on the Sabbath and begins to follow the commandments. The Ten Commandments are universal. The rabbis recognize this. Uh, my favorite commentary is by Hertz, Hertz. Very f, it's in many synagogues. It's called the Pentateuch and the Haftarahs, and he has a long exposition on the universality of the decalogue. So I, I quote, it's, it's referenced in the book, people can look it up, and I quote him, and he, he's a very tower, he was the Chief Rabbi of Britain in, in the previous century, very towering figure.
So some Jews today would say, "No, no, the Sabbath is ours and so forth." But then you just need to remind them of these other texts. So the Sabbath is universal, and it is something that, uh, was given to humankind.
Uh, and there's a great irony here because, uh, there's a paragraph here, if I may, just read from your book, 75. You say, talking about your childhood, "In my experience growing up in an evangelical Christian church, the riches that come from a deep study of the Torah and the prophets were largely missing. I remember puzzling over the words of Jesus. I, I also was puzzled by the way." Quote, "As of Matthew 5:19, 'Whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, will be called least in the kingdom of God.'" End quote. And yet the Christian tradition ended up teaching that the Torah was abrogated and replaced by a new covenant. This is Galatians amongst other things. This meant that the bi, this meant that the Bible that Jesus and all his early followers used, uh, subsequently called the Old Testament, was seen as largely obsolete, an obsolete precursor of the New. The result was that the Torah, as a definitive revelation of God's way, was forgotten and in some cases even repudiated. Thinking of, well, there are lots of examples. And yet Jesus, quoting the Torah, has declared, quote, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word" (italicized in your book) "that proceeds from the mouth of Yahweh or YHVH." That's Matthew 4:4 and Deuteronomy 8:3. So the great irony here is that, um, the, the early, the Christians abolished the Torah, at least in terms of Torah obedience, as a means to pleasing God, as a means to salvation.
Yeah. They confused it with this issue of merit and self-righteousness. In other words, think of the Torah and just ethical standards of God. If you don't, the Torah just means "teaching."
So, think of "the way" as a kind of a mirror, and you look in the mirror and you see reflected, uh, what, what, what actually is. You're seeing yourself, perhaps. And so you don't break the mirror because, uh, it's reflecting something about you. Like if you're a lying, cheating, Sabbath-breaking idolater, the mirror is not the problem. You're the problem. And so people confuse justification by faith. The Hebrew Bible teaches justification by faith. It just doesn't tie it to the blood of a human being that a human being paid for sins like an animal sacrifice. In fact, it repudiates that. The Hebrew Bible says, "Shall I offer my firstborn son for my sins? What does the Lord require of you?" And what it makes very clear in the book, many passages I quote, powerful passages.
"Turn to me and I will turn to you. As a father pities his children, Hashem, or the Lord, pities those who fear him." So any human being at any point in history, according to the Hebrew Bible, can call upon the name of God. Uh, we have Psalms. One of my favorite Psalms I quote, uh, is that "The Lord, the God, is near to all those who call upon him in sincerity." Every human being, it's universal. Now, the particularity that it became was unfortunate, and Jesus tries to break that. For example, on the Sabbath, only in Mark, the others don't include this. They, they don't want to say when he's asked about the Sabbath, he says, "Well, the Sabbath was made for humans, not humans for the Sabbath." He just said it was made for humans. He says "man," but that's a generic term. It's made for humans. And what he's saying is, you could come, you could become a slave to certain sorts of rituals and religious observances, like, "Do you keep the Sabbath?" "Well, I'm really righteous because I keep the Sabbath." Or is it a benefit that comes from the whole world pausing, shutting off our cell phones, so to speak, shutting down the computers, being with family, uh, meditating, having time off, rest, and it's for the animals, too. Remember, it's like some cultures work, uh, 24/7, and, uh, it, it's not a healthy thing to do. So there's all kinds of benefits, uh, for the Sabbath, but it's mainly a sign between, uh, the Creator and his people in the Hebrew Bible. It becomes a kind of a sign. It's called a sign.
So it's not the Jewish Sabbath. It, uh, if you take the broader view that I lay out in the book.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, can we just change gears slightly and look at the Jewish Messiah? And there are a handful of passages in the, uh, Jewish Bible which you list in your book. Um, they don't necessarily mention a Messiah, but nevertheless, they are understood to be messianic. Um, so what are some of these key passages? Who is the Messiah in the Jewish Bible? And one must ask, uh, was he God? Was he divine? Was there an expectation the Jewish Messiah would be a sacrifice for humanity's sins? And another question was going to add, bolt on to the end there. How did the Apostle Paul, who was also a Jew, of course, come up with 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, which is the passage which says that the Jewish Bible, uh, foretells or speaks of the Messiah, the Christos, because he's writing in Greek, who would die and be buried for sins and be raised on the third day from the dead? That the actual scriptures speak of this. This is, this is what he claims. Now, I've read the passages in your, that you outline in your book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith. The life of me, I couldn't see any description of the Messiah dying for sins or being raised from the dead at all. So that's a separate, slightly separate issue. What's going? So the first point really is, what is the Jewish Messiah in the Jewish scriptures? Secondly, what does this solitary Jew, well, maybe not solitary, maybe there were a few others like him in the mid-second century, sorry, mid-first century. Why do they come up with this completely different idea of Jewish Messiah found in those same scriptures? It's a mystery to me how you get both of these quite different paradigms, both claiming to speak of the Christos, the Messiah.
That's right. Yeah. It's, uh, very interesting. There are 10 passages and only 10. You'd think there'd be, you know, 50 or something, the way people talk. And, uh, I quote every one of them word for word, translated them. U, I, I use the Revised Standard, but I alter it sometimes if it's incorrect because I, I do, I'm able to translate Hebrew. I've published a translation of Genesis, for example, if people are interested in my translation of of that book. But you look at all 10,
And it's interesting, you point out he's never called the Messiah.
It's amazing.
How did I pick the 10? Because he's called the descendant of David, usually the branch of David, something about, uh, David's seed. He, he's identified as a descendant of David. So in these 10 passages, you get the idea that in the future, from the time they were written, and they're from the prophets primarily, uh, there will come this one who's a descendant of King David, who will begin to take great authority and power upon the earth and will bring justice and righteousness to the world. Will bring the main chapter is Isaiah 11, by far. That's the whole chapter. If any of your listeners just want to get a quick reading, go read Isaiah 11. Starts with a stump, uh, of Jesse. Jesse's David's father. So that line is cut off by the Babylonians, and then it says, "A little shoot will come up," like a like a tree you cut down, and a few, maybe a year later, you see a little, little stem coming up. That's the branch of David. So it's a branch. It grows out of his roots. It says, "So out of the roots comes this branch," and then this branch grows and grows. And the first thing the branch does, you got to then ask, "What's the job description of the branch of David? What, what is he supposed to do?" It's very clear. You can literally list, he should do this, and this, and this, and this. And, uh, Jesus, uh, for example, did not do any of those things. Uh, he, maybe prepared the way in a certain way, and that's why Christians have a second coming. And I, I think Muslims as well believe, uh, Esau will come back and fulfill many of these things. So what are they? Mainly to gather the lost tribes, the scattered tribes of Israel, all come back. Jesus apparently believed that because he appointed 12 apostles so that they could be over the 12 tribes of Israel. That was his, uh, his faith. But what else? You gather the tribes. You begin then to bring light to the nations,
So that the nations begin to come, uh, up to Jerusalem and learn the way. It's sort of a picture of the universal prophetic vision of Isaiah 2 that I quoted. But the Messiah is the facilitator. He becomes great to the ends of the earth, and all the nations seek him. So he's an extraordinary figure. Not called the Messiah, but "Messiah" just means "anointed." So they would anoint kings, they would anoint priests. You can even be anointed of the spirit. Like, who anointed Moses? Moses anoints Aaron the priest. Who anoints Moses? God anoints Moses. He pours out his spirit on Moses and says, "Okay, I've anointed you. Now you put some of your spirit on Aaron and the 70 elders." So now they're all, they're all messiahs, too. So every priest is a messiah. Every king is a messiah. But this is the capital M. At the end of the age, this one is supposed to come. Uh, and if it's Jesus, as Christians and Muslims believe, then he will come to finish the job that he inaugurated initially 2,000 years ago. If it's not Jesus, then another figure will come. And Jews talk about the Messiah all the time. It's too bad, really, that the Messiah became the capital M with people, I think, in English, because now, like when I'm in Israel, people always just talk about, you see these signs, uh, "Messiah has come" and "Messiah's coming," and in in the Muslim quarter, "Esau is coming," and so forth. I think that's okay, but it implies that there's a category called "Messiah." And it would be better to talk about the Davidic figure. I know that sounds too academic for people, but that's the way the prophets approach it. But as far as being God, absolutely not. In fact, one of them, Micah 5, says, "He will rule in the strength of his God."
In other words, the Messiah has a God. And that's also in the New Testament. "One of I return to my Father, your Father, my God, and your God." Jesus, he says he has a God. And yet we ask Christians this, "Well, hang on. Jesus has a God?" "No, no, he is God." Okay.
It's confusing. You know, my mother, I'll tell a story about my mother. She's passed away. She was in her 90s, and I said, I had left all that behind. And she said, "Well, I said, 'Well, your church believes Jesus is God.'" She goes, "He's not God." I said, "Mom, your church teaches it." Uh, "All the churches teach it." "Well, that's the." She said, "That's crazy. God is God, and Jesus." So she's just taking a simple, you know, simple, uh, view. What, what do you mean? He, he's praying to God. And, you know, I'll give you two examples that are quite stunning. One is John 17. Now, John, you would expect people go, "Oh, high Christology, John." Yeah, Jesus is God. So what does he say? It's his last prayer. Maybe we should respect that. He says, "I pray, Father, that they may know you, the only true God." Stop. "The only true God, and the Messiah whom you sent." See the difference? And the other one is Revelation 11. "The kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord" (LORD, it's Greek, but it means the Lord God) "and of his Christ, his Messiah." So the proper way to speak is "the one Lord God and his anointed one." The anointed one is just a servant, and he's not to be, uh, he's an agent that facilitates and brings about the nations coming up. Now, this is the view of the Hebrew Bible.
And it was left behind. As far as Paul goes, uh, the text, "according to the scriptures, according to the scriptures." Very difficult.
Because, uh, if he just said that the Messiah died and was buried and was raised the third day, that would be okay. That's your view. You received it from the tradition. But he says, "according to the scriptures." And in the book of Acts, he goes into synagogues and it says that he reasoned from the scriptures how it was necessary for the Christ, the Messiah, to suffer and die for our sins.
And in Paul, I know people don't like this, that want to be more liberal. But and they really fight it. Paul says very clearly that the way to God is only through the justification that comes by faith. But it doesn't stop there. I agree. That's the Hebrew Bible. Through faith in the blood sacrifice of his son.
Read Romans 3. Read Romans 4. He says, "Abraham was justified by faith." Hey, there you go. And an opponent of Paul would say, "Yeah, and he didn't believe in the blood of Jesus, so you just contradicted yourself." So Paul is putting forth something. So where's he getting it?
Yeah, that's my question because he was a learned. I get the impression, you know, he gives the impression he was a learned Jew. He was not some kind of illiterate peasant who never touched the Torah. This guy argues like a theologian. He's someone who's a quite an extraordinary intellect, you know, quite brilliant, has impressed people for the last 2,000 years. So where does he get this idea from, which is clearly not there in the very scriptures that he is claiming to quote from?
Yeah, he is, we're almost sure that he's getting it from Isaiah, uh, this section of Isaiah that I'm talking about, 40-66. And three times in Isaiah, there are 12 hymns to the servant. They're called the Servant Hymns. They're 12.
Yeah. But in four, I said three, sorry. In four of them, the servant is despised, rejected, spit upon, and yet he's still called Israel. "My servant Israel will be rejected." And then in 52 and 3, but mainly 53, you have phrases that "He will be like a lamb led to the slaughter. He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. All we like sheep have gone astray. The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
So that's taken literally to mean a person, Jesus of Nazareth, who bore the sins of the world.
More generally, if you read all of the servant passages, it's important to read all 12 and then understand there's a faithful remnant of Israel that has not left God. Uh, as you go through, you can just underline, "Who is blind but my servant Israel? Who is deaf but my servant Israel?" So there's a portion of Israelites that are called blind and deaf. There's another portion, and it's a group, actually, that he says, "My ears have been opened to hear God morning by morning. He opens my ear, and he has anointed me." That's kind of like the remnant faithful servant. Now, they are suffering collectively.
Uh, people say, "Well, it's the Jewish people generically." It's fine for Jews to say that. I mean, after the Holocaust and so forth, you know, the sufferings of the Jewish people have been amazing over the years, but the sufferings of
Protestants, believe it or not, uh by the Catholics, hundreds of thousands tortured for not agreeing in the Trinity, for example. We don't know how many in the Inquisition, but it's a lot. And I'm not comparing the two.
I'm just saying that it it's trying to put forth the idea that there would be a small group of faithful Israelites >> that they would be rejected by the others and killed. So what did Jesus say? Which of the prophets have you not killed? He says to them in his own day, name a prophet that you didn't persecute and kill. And they're like, and he says, uh, and here I am, you know, and what what is it? You're taking up stones to stone me.
So the suffering servant is not an image of of someone coming and doing it for the world. It's saying, look at these people that were God's servants that have been rejected and wounded just and it's likening it to a sacrifice. other they you have as Jeremiah says I think I think it's Jeremiah for your sake we are killed all the day long we are killed all the day long we we prophets we servants of God and it I wouldn't just blame the Israelites that the history of any prophet or person who speaks out against injustice and in and uh unrighteousness and as we say speaks truth to power is often to get crushed.
Think of the examples. Uh in World War II, uh uh Dietrich Bonhaofer, the famous Lutheran pastor, he was told, "You must put a copy of Minecom, Hitler's autobiography, on the pulpit next to the Bible, and he went in the the his church the next Sunday. He took uh a copy of Minecom. He threw it to the floor and stepped on it. And he says, "This book will never be in this church." He was promptly arrested and he was uh uh killed eventually. He wrote letters and papers for prison and so forth >> and he his opening line of his main book it's called the cost of disciplehip worth reading says when the messiah calls a man he calls him to die.
So there have been martyr we call them martyrs uh people who have testified against evil and oppression and injustice and they get killed and we know that in our secular world too uh you know people think of Martin Luther King speaking out for justice or other uh you know I don't like to bring up secular examples necessarily and make them part of Isaiah because that's a different world but the the the Isaiah 52 is fairly very clearly. And in one verse of it, it it actually has the plural. It talks about the stroke was upon them, not him. >> And so it's on them. It's it's translated as singular, but if you look, uh, it's >> curious thing is that Isaiah 5253 never mentions a Messiah. >> He never mentions Jesus. uh and it is clearly when you read it in context one reads the preceding chapters as you mentioned it clearly indicates the whole context suggests it's talking about uh Israel itself the Israelites themselves the people as you say >> the righteous the righteous ones >> the righteous ones it's not talking about an individual and it's using poetic language though isn't it clearly but the the context suggests it's the Israelites in exile that the sufferings they're undergoing it's not it's not prophetic. It's not talking about a future. It's talking about as you say uh these righteous ones. >>
And it could be that uh in the time of Jesus, I don't know the mind of Jesus. Uh maybe he is identifying himself and his movement because he talks to the followers and says, "I I'm going to take up a cross. If you would follow me, you too take up a cross." I think he could have anticipated that opposition, but uh it's far removed from anything the church later established >> as a ritual and a sacred meal with all due respect for religions. I would always add that, you know, people have their sacred practices. They're often very sincere. But to eat and drink even symbolically the body and blood of your uh leader and therefore your god as he became it it can sound very holy and it does I mean people are very devoted to this but in the earliest record that we have after Paul this is in Paul where we get this body and blood it's in a thing called the dedicay it was found in the 19th century >> and in a monastery in Greece and it as a Eucharist with bread and wine and it does not give those meanings. We've talked about this in previous programs. It actually says the bread represents us collectively being gathered together as a body, one loaf, and the wine represents the vine of David, the the Messiah >> to remember the Messiah, but it's it's not blood and flesh.
So those are ideas that did develop sacramentally, but they're known. The only parallel I found is in the Greek magical papyrii where you would drink a cup of blood uh toward Isis and you would get the strength from drinking the blood. Uh again, a kind of sacred ceremony. >> But I don't think that was the original meaning of the Eucharist. I can't picture James and the Jewish followers uh having that kind of ceremony. They're probably >> it's a boo, wasn't it? Was it simply forbidden for drinking blood? It was the word of the life force. It's actually been in the Torah. So why would they not only drink blood but drink the blood of a human being which is cannibalism? I mean it's even worse than the >> and Christians would say, "Well, you're trivializing it and we don't think of it like that. It's a symbol. It stands for that." Yet the Catholics argue that uh they talk about the real presence of of Christ spiritually in that bread >> substantiation. >> So yeah, transubstantiation. So, it's quite complicated >> and you know, I I'm trying to do the history of ideas here and and I would just say that I think it's inconceivable that someone outside of Paul's uh nexus or circles would ever come up with something like that.
And also at Kuman, the Dead Sea Scrolls, they have a messianic meal also, >> right? And it's very clear the Messiah comes and his priest, two messiahs, I talk about that. And they take the bread and the wine and share it with the people. It never says anything about it. Uh Jews today, they this is how you welcome the Sabbath. This is the first thing you do. You know, you you break the bread and and do the wine and wash your hands and then you start the meal. It's nothing to do with uh blood or flesh or anything like that of an animal or a human. Uh we all enjoy meals and bread is the symbol of the food and wine is the symbol of joy of celebrating joy. >> So um that that was the idea and of course wine can have a variety of meanings. It it literally is fruit of the line. So, >> you know, some people choose grape juice rather than fermented wine. >> Exactly. Exactly.
Well, there's many other things we could talk about. We we running out of time really, but I just wanted to ask you about a couple of things. Uh, in the preface to the book, you uh you say you've just begun work on a fifth book, no less, Jesus betrayed, and then you give a I think a slight provisional subtitle, how the church rejected its founder. >> That's a very strong statement. I'm very much looking forward to that. And also you have completed and published before now a book on Mary or Miriam. >> Yeah. Copy. I'll hold up for you there. >> I love that. I love that photo that it's a painting from uh an Italian painter. >> But what I love about it as you gaze into her eyes, you it's a Mona Lisa literally you what is she thinking? Is she you know she lost two sons. Jesus >> like she's wearing a hijab. like an Iranian system. He was wearing Adrian. >> She's uh she's So, it's called uh the lost Mary, rediscovering the uh historical rediscovering the mother of Jesus. Because I didn't want people to think it's Mary Magdalene, you know, after Dan Brown, the lost Mary. But, uh, then I say a new historical investigation of the most powerful woman in the world. The first line says that Mary is the best known, least known woman in history. So this is available now. >> I even read it aloud. So if people like audio, you can hear me read this book with my own voice because it has archaeology, history, every possible text. I talk about the Quran. I know you you uh are Muslim and many of your followers are Muslim and the Quran by name. I believe Miriam is and they also call her by her proper name. Her name is Miriam, not Mary. And u I don't know about Muslim women if they take the name Miriam but >> yeah they do absolutely >> tend to do Mary and Jews do Miriam. You know you say well it's the same name like James and Jacob. Okay but it's not that close. You know James doesn't sound like Jacob. It's just my name's James but really it's Jacob. Uh so your name's Paul and it's Paulus. Well, that's very close. But so Miriam is it gives more of a flavor and and I think it's the large isn't it the largest surah in the Quran is devoted to her? I think I'm pretty sure it might be. >> Probably about Yousef. I could be wrong. >> It's one of the largest though for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So she's she's very important obviously. Now Christians have made her very super important and especially the Roman and Greek church queen of heaven. >> She becomes uh she doesn't have children. She's ever virgin. She's exalted. She becomes the queen of heaven. But most dramatically she becomes Theotocus. >> Yeah. >> The one who bore God, >> God bearer. And that became a stumbling block for many Christian believers in the ancient world who said wait a minute uh the godmother maybe meaning she's very influential in the movement you would look to Jesus mother but remember she's also the mother of James in the in the tradition uh that Jesus has these brothers and sisters >> so I try to uh cover all that u it it's it's getting pretty good reviews people uh some people like it, some people don't. >> But I I want to put her back in her own time, her own place, and I'll I'll I'll get you a copy and maybe in the future we can uh talk about Mary as well, the historical Mary. Yeah, >> the historical Mary, the real Mary, Jesus of history. >> Well, thank you very much, uh James Table. >> Thank Paul. Always a pleasure. And uh >> I'll put I'll put your uh website uh in the description below, jamestable.com, where you can see about all his books. He hasn't just written these two or hopefully three ones. >> I got 10 now. This is the >> Gosh, incredible. Incredible. Um and obviously I'll I'll put a link uh separate link to this book uh your uh the latest fourth edition revised and updated. >> Yeah, that's the book I want to push. Now, I want to push Mary, too, of course, but I want particularly your viewers because I've had the reactions from them before. I think they will really find this book interesting. >> Is it It's as if I'm saying, "Look, forget Christianity, forget Islam, forget everything. If I just took the Hebrew Bible and read it >> as it is, what would emerge?" And what emerges are foundation stones that were largely rejected by Christianity.
And I'm going to leave it to you to say and your readers to say, well, how many of these blocks of truth are now preserved in Islam? Because Islam is also an Abrahamic faith. >> But we're using this term politically now, right? Today we talk about the Abraham Accords and all that. It has nothing to do with the message of Abraham, >> but Christianity, it's not the first thing you think of when you think of Christianity today. >> You know, you say, "Was it an Abrahamic faith?" Uh, yeah. Yeah. I I guess so. Paul said that we follow the faith of Abraham. That's different. I'm presenting it as who started this quest, this way of the one God, the way of Torah, >> the way of the prophets, Abraham. And if you're really of Abrahamic faith, you would start there as if those are the foundation stones. They're the building blocks of biblical faith. And then you can talk about what departs and what doesn't. And Jesus, I think, is a good, the historical Jesus is a good representation of Abrahamic faith in his own time. No matter what else you think of it, >> why do you call me good? There's one good God. It's Abrahamic faith. That's Jesus here. >> But Matthew Matthew changed that as we know. >> Matthew changes that. Yeah, that was the real problem. >> Luke doesn't he keeps the original, but you discuss that in a footnote in your book sometimes actually in your book. The footnotes book has all those quotes. actually juicy substance in the >> I wrote it for Christians. Paul, I mean, Muslims are welcome to read it. But I wrote it for Christians because their Jesus whom they follow and love >> stood for Abrahamic faith. >> So if you want to follow Jesus, you would want to uh see if I'm correct about Abrahamic faith. And I show time and time again that he's quoting the very things in the book. Um, >> great stuff. >> Well, I I do I do think I do recommend people to to read it. There's much in there of interest actually in education. Uh, whole range of subjects and and stuff there to disagree with to be honest. I didn't always agree, but we're not going to go into that now. But, uh, it's certainly a valuable work and I do recommend it. So, have a have a look in the link below and uh, thank you again, Dr. James Table. Um inshallah we'll come back one day and talk about Mary the mother of Jesus. Uh another very important figure in all three religions. Uh even in Judaism originally uh but not now of course but originally she >> Oh thank you. I've always enjoyed interviewing with you. U you know what you do that some interviewers don't do you actually read the books. No, you really do. And and you engage them and u whether you you know you agree, disagree, whatever. You try to allow your your interviewees to explain what what they think and then it can be discussed. And >> I'm here to learn. We're all here to learn. So appreciate it very much indeed. >> Well, until next time, James, have a have a great day and >> and u as we say in Abrahamic faith, a peaceful Sabbath me. This is a Friday here, so you're already into the evening. So, >> yeah.