Transcription
We watched a couple of the Delve uh videos. I don't know if you know this, but we watched a couple of the Dell videos. For those that don't know, these two are kind of like the founders, the CEO and CTO C somethingo uh at Delve and they both did these kind of interviews where this like interview on the street. Yo, yo, I'm on the street. I'm going to give you a fast interview and you're going to give some life advice in which they likely had time to go pre-practice and make sure that they have all their stuff. They knew the questions ahead of time and both of their answers were very, very funny in the sense that her answer was like, you should just not play by all any of the rules and this other guy was just like, you need to do something to be remembered by, which by the way, I think Mike Tyson says it best, which is legacy is stupid. Who cares when you're dead? Who cares if somebody's talking about you dead and gone? What, what you you're concerned about what's happening on earth still? What a loser. So when you heard these two talk, it definitely was kind of frightening that they run a compliance company because the words that they chose to use to describe what they do is not the words you'd want to hear when someone's talking about compliance, such as break every rule. Like, that's not a that's not a confidence-building word when it comes to compliance, right? I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Someone who takes risks, you're just like, well, compliance is literally the opposite of risks. Hey, what are you doing? Yeah, I prevent all risk. Uh, I, you know what I'd say? I'd say, uh, like be really um, careful. Uh, you know, YOLO, you only live once, but the Andy Samberg style. Okay, we got to be careful. Don't go outside. The sun's bad for you. Don't go to nightclubs. It's bad for your ears. Never do drugs. Premarital sex is terrible. Uh, make sure you invest in a good 401k. Uh, don't dilute your finances. You know, like that's what I was expecting out of them is just quoting YOLO word for word. Instead, it's like, go fast, break things, break all the rules, don't do what people expect of you. Like, what? What?
Anyways, so it turns out that YC and Delve have parted ways. I still remember the day we took our YC interview at MIT. We're grateful, uh, we're so grateful to the community and every founder we've made. We'll continue to support every young founder striving to make in the world a Oh my gosh, this is actually a very hilarious phrase. I can't believe she said it. I can't believe she said make the world a better place. Okay, I thought that phrase was illegal since Silicon Valley. I actually thought that you weren't allowed to say that anymore if you joined any startup incubator. Like, I thought it was disallowed. Of course, they say that kind of stuff. Elizabeth Holmes, yes, I believe Elizabeth Holmes also nailed it. I'll refrain from commenting, but if the founders would like to talk, I've seen this show before. Let's go, Elizabeth. Let's go. Yes, I am following Elizabeth Holmes. Okay, I don't know if you know this, but she's a hilarious tweeter. Okay, hilarious tweeter. You wouldn't understand. You would not understand at all. Okay. >> I understand. >> No, you don't understand. Sam Samuel Jippity, you don't understand. Okay, I guess let's let's talk. Let's let's do this next one. We're trying to get caught up here because I know there there's a there's a post somewhere in here that I actually really wanted to go over because I I Yeah, I think this is it. I think this is the one I really was excited about going over, but I wanted to make sure I go through all the other stuff before we did that. So, let's let's look at this video right here.
>> I'm Karun, one of the co-founders and the CEO of Delve.
>> And I'm Seline, co-founder and COO.
>> Today, we'd like to address the anonymous allegations made about us and what we're doing to fix it.
By the way, anonymous allegations, it does suck. Like, I have to be on on their team getting hit with a bunch of anonymous allegations about what's happening internally. That does that does stink. So, I mean, how do you how do you how do you beat anonymous allegations? Like, how if you can't even fight if you can't even fight against it? Like, what are you going to do? He's boob mongoging his co-founder. I did I saw I saw the tweets saying boob boob mogging. I wasn't going to say anything. Pick pic. I wasn't going to say anything. Okay. I'm a third party. I'm a third party unbiased listener.
>> like to say that we moved too fast and in hindsight did not hit the bar that we hold ourselves to.
By the way, those two looking at each other at the exact same time to say we moved too fast. Let's go back to that.
>> about us and what we're doing to fix it. But first, we'd like to say that we moved too fast.
That, my friends, is called media training. You don't give a speech like this and do those type of premeditative looks at each other. I mean, this is this is a 100% planned uh even like down to them looking at each other. That's that's a little weird. I would say you should you should at least if you're going to make a post about being caught potentially about being dishonest, you should at least try to make the hey, we're trying to fix stuff video feel a little bit honest. I just I just want I just want to throw it out there. Feel a little bit more authentic on these things.
>> and in hindsight did not hit the bar that we hold ourselves to. We deeply apologize to our customers for the noise that we've caused.
In the past 2 weeks, our primary focus has been ensuring that our customers have confidence in our product. We've rebuilt our auditor network.
Wait, so they they weren't doing it? Like I because I I it's only been allegations, right? We actually have no evidence of them actually being scamming or anything, right? And so, are they admitting to scamming at this point or admitting to not doing the right thing? I'm super confused by that because they kind of just said, "Hey, we moved too fast." Well, what do you mean you moved too fast? What do you mean as a what do you mean as a compliance company you moved too fast? What are you What are you trying to say? And then to say they rebuilt something, what do you mean you rebuilt it? Also, how do you rebuild an extremely like if sock 2 was so easy that you could re you could build something in two weeks? Then it wouldn't really be a product, right? Like most people just wouldn't really especially in the day and age of AI, right? You'd be like, "Yo, AI, make it sock 2 compliant. No mistakes." So, it's a little bit confusing that you could just rebuil you could just rebuild it in two weeks. A lot of questions here.
>> We've rebuilt our auditor network, offered every single one of our customers complimentary reodits and pen tests, and improved the language in our product to clarify that templates are just starting points. We are incredibly grateful to the significant number of Delve customers that are already working with us to complete a re audit.
I I I also want to throw out there, I do like that they're doing pen testing, but they themselves were penetrated. I mean, that's how these leaks happened. Some deep penetration happened somewhere along the line there. I mean, I'm just throw I'M JUST THROWING IT OUT THERE. A little little bit of funny right there, you know. Heyo. Heyo. Again, we also we I still don't know like I can't tell from this language if they if they're saying they did something that they shouldn't do. Like what she said in the beginning. I'm still very confused by that. I really do hope we >> complete a re audit, >> get some answers here. And as we go forward in the coming weeks, we'll continue to share more product demos so we can be even more transparent about what it is we do here at Delve.
>> And that said, this isn't the full story, >> okay? We hired two independent cyber security forensics experts and analyzed that a malicious actor, not a whistleblower or a customer, purchased the Delve platform and proceeded to exfiltrate our sensitive information.
Quick question. I don't know anything about SOCK 2, but can you be a can you be sock 2 compliant and have your information exfiltrated? Sock it to me, baby. what you're trying to tell me. Gosh, I feel like XQC right now. A son of Einstein. I feel I honestly, dude, I feel I just throw this out there. Feel like the ultimate the ultimate detective right now. If you can have a customer If you can have a customer sign up and steal all your information and your core product is sock 2 compliant, which which part of it is that you can't you can't have all your information leaked. That only means one of two things. One, you didn't dog food your own product. Two, your product didn't work. That's of course if sock two means that that's part of the security compliance is that you can't leak anything. Uh compliant doesn't mean you're uh doesn't mean safe. You got to you got to checklist. Both socket two uh or yeah too. That's also wasn't true because their buckets were open to the public, not just for their customers. Oh, their buckets were just open. Classic classic S3 conundrum. I mean, we've all made that mistake. I mean, right, right, boys. We left our buckets open, boys. Right.
>> The data extracted matches the timestamps and the sources shared in the anonymous posts. And we believe that it is being cherrypicked, misconstrued, >> and taken out of context to hurt us, our investors, our adviserss, and most importantly you, our customers.
Okay, they should really rewind and try to they really should clarify her initial statements. Like why did they rebuild everything and and how did they move too fast? I just I got to know why. Like what what was this? I am so confused by this.
>> We're exploring every possible legal action >> and further have notified anyone that we believe has been affected. Our mission is to modernize compliance. And as we grow, we are holding ourselves to an even higher standard, not just for our product, but for how we operate and communicate.
>> And we are not going anywhere. We've built this company to last and are going to continue building for you.
>> Thank you.
I for me that actually just left me with more questions. I actually don't even know like is it is it worse than we thought? The cadence of their speech is also uh slower than their other interviews. Well, yeah. Yeah. They I mean, it's this is clearly you don't just go back and forth, two people talking, handing off one coherent thought without tons of practice, right? So, I'm a little bit confused by that. If only M dashes could be replicated in their voice. There was some M dashes in there. I I saw two ukuleles. That video definitely video just made me actually question way more because I'm still I still have to be like, what was the thing that you moved too fast on? Like, I think that that you should not ever say that, dude. Also, just want to throw you crazy crazy trending right now. I don't know what's happening inside. I don't know what's going on on Twitter, fellas. This is the Monday vibes and death to America. That's crazy. I don't know what what the heck's going on, but uh there we go. That's where I'm at. They should have had lawyers instead of social media coaches. True. True. So, that's the part that they probably should clarify is what did they move too fast on and why did they need to rebuild everything? I'm more concerned because when you rebuild something, I personally typically find that rebuilding something introduces a whole new set of bugs and it causes a whole new set of things to go wrong. Like I often, me personally, I've never survived a rewrite without tons of issues. And so I find that to be very uh I would personally find that to be very alarming. Like from a technical side of things, you know, from a non-technical side of things, maybe that's like maybe that makes sense in like non-tech people's brains. You just re you just you just redo stuff. But I feel like even non-technical people can go, you know, when I when I tear down a wall in my house, I typically find like four things that also went wrong and then it just keeps on going more and more wrong and then I end up like building all sorts of stuff and then I have to take new shortcuts and then I get all you know like it's just like I can kind of like you can kind of draw parallels in the real world like when you take stuff apart it's often super hard to put it back together correctly like build a new house just build a new house.
What is del uh sock 2 compliance? Let's go into this. Let's just go into this thing right here. You can draw a straight line between the increasing number of scam good scam companies coming out of YC and Gary Tan's thinking 37,000 lines of code a day is good. One of the best incubators in the world it now has no sense if of oh my goodness no sense of if a claim is viable or not. No technical acumen to evaluate the claims. A president with no introspection who cannot take critique. Focusing on people telling uh to move fast and break things and push growth at all costs. So, two young smart kids making or make a claim that they've used AI to solve complex regulations they have no experience with, which by the way, this is a bad idea. Just to throw that just to just like for the sake of Delve and for everybody listening, no matter how no matter how bad your idea is, AI will in fact confirm that it's a good idea or at least an interesting idea. And the best the best by the way I got I can't believe I can't believe Gary blocked me. Gary why did you block me? That was ridiculous. But the best example of that this right here. It's funny that Gary Tan he put that meanwhile the haters keep hating. Have fun writing code at 1x speed. Dude ripper right there. But remember he said has anyone cracked this yet with claude code? Trivially easy customization to make to your own browser with autoloaded browser extensions. Now, first off, there's nothing trivial about browsers and how they load and everything. They are they are in effect like a mini operating system. They have to safeguard against the entire universe. They sandbox stuff. They have they have they have to do so very, very much. It's it's actually insane what a browser has to do. And so the user is asking whether they could fork Chromium and bake the extensions directly into the browser binary maintaining the fork with clawed code. This is a genuinely interesting question. It's not a genuinely interesting question. It's a bad question. It's the only proper answer to that question would be that's a genuinely interesting question. I assume you have absolutely no technical acumen and you are completely [ __ ] Is this correct? Oh, you're not? Then it's not an interesting question. It's a terrible, terrible question and you should be ashamed of yourself for asking that. Browsers are incredibly difficult. It's take literally teams of somewhere between five to 500 to maintain depending on the browser. We'll grant it, we'll give Google a bit of a uh a pass on how many people they have maintaining it, but I would just like to let you know asking if you can just maintain a fork with custom technology on a Chromium browser, which by the way on modern computer on a modern laptop will take over 24 hours to build the actual process. Let me just throw this at you. You have no idea what you're saying and that's crazy. Like that would be the appropriate response, right? That is actually a very appropriate response is actually it's super super hard and we should not even entertain that question. Brother, you're going the wrong direction. Let's try to think of something else, right? Like that would actually be the appropriate way to kind of respond to this is let's think about this differently. I don't think this is the right way to go. It should be your absolute last super last resort and you should also have a billion dollars, right? Like that should be the two requirements. The fact that it's saying, "Hey, this is genuinely interesting." Like that is genuinely uninteresting. It's a very bad idea. Like just absolutely the worst idea. So when you see this right here, two smart kids, I'm sure they're smart. They went to MIT. Okay, they had their crap together long before I ever did anything. Can we all agree to that? When I was 18, I had a a 2.16 high school graduation and I was I I'd smoked I was smoking a lot of a lot of a lot of substances. I was doing a lot of thing. I was I was seeing a lot of things that don't exist. I was living in realities that aren't quite there. I was uh doing I was doing things, okay? I was living a very different life. All right? And so when these two kids, no matter how smart they are, like, "Yo, is this sock too compliant?" And the A is like, "Dude, I absolutely could do that, bro." Like, that's not good. That would be scary. And so then these two kids, like I just want to throw this out there. I think these two kids are also they're completely I mean, if the allegations are true, then they're completely 100% in the wrong. But I also can't purely fault them. They're at a place in which is constantly telling them to move faster, faster, faster, and faster. The president himself of the thing is like, "Stop looking at code. You're a loser. You're staying behind. You're absolutely in the worst possible position. If you do this, you're going to fall apart. If you don't do this, you're going to be left behind." But, you know, like just constantly just just constantly like ramming it into their heads how bad of a position they're in if they're not doing a thing. They're encouraged to break rules and to bend rules, right? That's part of the whole thing. Trump said this. No, we're not talking about Trump. What the hell are you talking about? The president, the president uh president of YC, Gary Tan, right? He's the one that says these things. That's 37. Come on, guys. We're talking about YC. We're not talking about American politics. Okay? No one cares about American of politics, people. All right. Actually, a lot of people care about American politics. I just don't want to talk about them because it makes me depressed. Okay? I just want to throw you out there. It makes me very, very depressed. Young people are inherently stupid. It's not their fault. No, it is most certainly their fault. That's the thing. I'm not I'm not trying to I hate the idea of saying that someone isn't culpable because they're 21 years old and potentially and if the allegations are true, did something that's bad. It's still their fault. It is 100% their fault. You should know better. Ah, but you also live in an environment in which is constantly telling you to break rules or to bend rules, to move super super fast, that implementation doesn't matter, and just is like, is it shocking that that two people who were told to move as fast as Lightning ended up cutting corners potentially? Like, if again, if the allegations are true and also this video made no coherent sense of if the allegations are true or false, I actually can't even tell. Like notice that they never actually said what was said was absolutely false and we were completely and 100% correctly doing everything. They they kind of said the opposite. They said, "Hey, we moved too fast and so we rebuilt everything and we're rerunning compliance reporting." I don't know what that means, right? And so I can see that they lived in an environment they were told they were going to be not going to make it and so they did exactly they did exactly what you would expect. They're young. They have a really hard time to push against uh people that are older and in uh what's it called? In in positions of power and so then they they end up they could potentially very end up making mistakes. Well, why is bro talking like a boomer? If talking like a boomer is personal responsibility is important and at the end of the day you are personally responsible for the decisions you make no matter what your circumstances are. Then yes, I'm a boomer. Also extremely insane that you think that you're not responsible for your own decisions. Uh, I couldn't do it. Gary Tan said if I didn't do it, I didn't do it. So, therefore, I have to I have to I have to I have to potentially cheat or cheat. I have to do that. It's just like what are you talking about, bro? Being a boomer is amazing. Yeah. I mean, I can I can say both are bad. I have I have the most incredible skill, which is I can look at something and say, "Hey, that's wrong." But hey, this also this other thing that's also wrong. What if I say they're both bad? What? What if? Yes. By the way, I'm also almost 40, brother. I'm not just a boomer, I'm like one foot in the grave at this point. And so when I see these two, I part of me actually feels bad. I do think that a lot of some of these problems that we're seeing is from people that were told that they have to absolutely move at break neck speed at all time. And so you can't move super fast without cutting a corner. Like it's impossible. You kind of have to decide which one you're going to do, especially when it comes to compliance. Either you're compliant or you're not. There's there's not really uh there's not really an in between statement. Anyways, I don't know. Uh two well-off kids who should know better. It's literally the purpose of business. Yeah, I know. That's why again that's that's why I'm not giving them a pass. Yeah, it's kind of a it's kind of a what's it called? It's kind of a bullying thing. So, I feel bad for these I feel bad for the whole thing because I know there's a there's a bunch of companies who are probably super upset and they're probably scrambling to try to figure out what the hell's going on. Number two, likely these people were put under a lot of pressure, but also there's like a third thing, right? Wasn't there some other accusation against that that also makes this situation really confusing? Right. Wasn't there um uh could you find me the tweets uh that are accusing is is accusing one or two C's? I feel like it's two C's. Accusing uh Delve of stealing uh software from uh other YC startups. See, I I'm not actually even particularly sure if the not being in compliance is the reason why they got kicked out of YC. That's not the thing. That's probably the issue. This is what I actually think is the reason why they probably ended up getting kicked out. Where's the tweets? Where's the tweets, bro? Just put the tweets in the bag. There you go. Like, there we go. What's this one? Yeah. So, this is this is the this is the like, man, this whole Delve story is insane. This whole Delve story is just like out of control. They may or may not be un unverified committing committing some level of fraud. And then on top of it, they may have also been thoring. Where where where's the uh where's the where where's the original one? There's one that was really good that was kind of explaining what happened. I saw some tweet trying to go into details to it. YC didn't say anything about the allegations of fraud. It was stealing another project from another founder. The project was open source to begin with. It was open source to begin with. Oh, if it's open source to begin with, then I mean especially if it's MIT. I mean, the Dell founders went to MIT, but after drama kicked them out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. the expectation uh to learn and let's see to learn more and to move fast is getting higher. I am in I'm totally in the zone on this stream. Yeah, there we go. All right, let's let's look at this. There you go. There's the team. Look at them move. All right, let me just let me just scan it really quickly. All right, so this is uh this right here among the fresh allegations. Let's see on a whistleblower known as a deep delver is the claim that Delve allegedly took an open-source tool and passed it off as their own work without proper license, attribution to or monetary agreement with the original developer. Yeah, like that would be obviously really bad if it's But the question is what is the claim? What is the what is the actual claim? Oh, part two day two of five. Ooh, there's there's a lot more. Ooh, you don't want that. Yesterday, I reached out to Simai team that uh to ask if they uh entered into an agreement with Delve Team given the fact that I previously pointed out that Delve's Pathways was clearly built on top of Simai, also known as Sim Studio or Sim Sim Studio. That sounds like a video game. Uh, they got back to me and told me they had not. In fact, they provided evidence that shows that Delve stole Sims intellectual property after Sim became a Delve customer. Uh, lied about it and then told Sim they were no longer interested because there was no ROI. This all happened while Delve was making bucket loads of money off of Pathways. Yikes. So, how do you know about this? What is this screenshot? Is this supposed to be two different products, bro? Take a screenshot and better than 480p. Like, what am I even looking at? Agent API. What What the hell is this? All right. Anyway, so that's that's another I'm I am still curious if this is going to pan out as well. It looks like the Delve situation is very confusing. How I look at it is that if all of this is true, then we definitely have a I mean, we got another Forbes 30 under 30 situation going on here cuz that I assume that you can't just take open source stuff. What is Sim Studio? A Sim Studio. What's its license? What's the difference between Oh, commercial use, modification, distribution. Oh. Oh. Is is Apache 2? Is that one also just you have to put this on there? Is that what it is? You just have to put this big thing on there. Is that all it is? Apache is like MIT with patent protections. Okay. So, it literally is just Yeah. G I know GPL is the viral one, but some of these uh some of these open source ones also means you can't Okay, it's very permissive. Oh, okay. So, that's I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't actually have that much mercy on this one. If this is the reason why they fired uh Delve, if YC fired Delve over Delve forking and using and building their own from a jumping point off of an Apache 2 license, like sorry, bro, that's like not a big deal at all. Like that's why you don't that's why you don't make things Apache 2 if you don't want people to do that. Like if you're making an open source software and also a company, you should put the appropriate license that's like, hey, private use, do whatever you want to do with it. But hey, if you're a commercial business, you can't do that, right? Licenses are important. Unlike Claude and Anthropic, I prefer No, I don't like GPL. I would never do GPL. I think GPL is is bad is bad. Is naughty naughty. Yeah, you got to do it how Anthropic does it. Yeah, you just do it how Anthropic does it. take it and then when you leak yours you say, "Hey, I'll sue you." Not really sure about that one. MIT/ Apache or else's business license. Yeah, just use a business license. If you put Apache license, you don't [ __ ] about these things. Yeah, exactly. It is kind of crazy. It is kind of nuts to be like, "Hey, we gave a license that says go ahead, use it commercially." I I'd say the only thing is if it says you must include the license, the license of where they got it or something, then that totally makes sense. Then at least they could say, "Hey, you didn't you didn't include that. You should at least minimally include this one." To apply the patchy license to your own work, attach the following boiler plate notice. Yeah, you should probably at least do do that. That that makes sense, but it's kind of nuts. They broke the attribution requirement. Okay, well that's bad. They should at least say, "Hey, they didn't do the attribution requirement." I don't know what what legal action can you take off a license that's Apache 2 for not including the attribution. It's a violation of terms. Okay, well then yeah, then they broke that one. Okay, that's fair. They broke that. But I'm not. Is that Can you statuto damages? Can you do that? Can you? What? What? What? I mean, don't you have to claim I don't really know how those things work. I know that like when it comes to defamation, you have to prove that it actually hurt you in this case. Would you also have to prove that it kind of hurts them? But I think that they could at least counterfactually or counter say, "I got kicked out of YC for not putting the attribution." So YC kicked him out for not putting the attribution. Wow. Attention to detail. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Also, really the easiest thing not to get in trouble for. Hey, if you guys are going to make a commercial product off of like MIT or Apache 2, put the license in the bag, bro. Put the license in the bag. It's like not even that hard. Like, out of all things you're going to do, don't screw up that part. Like, that has to be the easiest part. I'll put the license in my prison bag. That's nuts, right? That's nuts to miss that to mess that up. It's a contract violation. Okay, so it's a contract violation. I wonder what the repercussions to a contract violations are, especially See, like these are the things that do we even have knowledge? Well, here let's let's ask Rock and I'm actually curious. What are the uh let's see what are the legal consequences um for uh uh let's see taking an opensource Apache 2 licensed uh project but not attributing it to uh the original owners. the company uh that broke this agreement uh is a 300 million uh company like is I'm not sure if there's like a portion of you know is is size does does size matter in this case I don't know I don't know if size matters in this like what is the um girl girl does size matter we're going to find out violating the attribution requirements of the Apache 2 license by failing to credit the original owners constitutes copyright infringement not just contract breach this exposes the vi the violating company to civil lawsuits with remedies including injunction stopping used distribution. Woo! Injunction would be cra that would that would delve would be delving right into a very dark cave with that one. Damages and attorney fees. The $300 million valuation of the companies makes it more attractive targets uh to enforce but does not. Okay. So, it's just the fact that the company is bigger makes it more of a target but it doesn't change the outcome. Okay. Well, let's see. Modification, redistribution, including uh let's see, proprietary products, but only if you comply with the conditions. The key redistribution rules section 4 are you must provide a copy of the license to receipts. Modify rules must carry prominent notices stating that you've changed them. You must retain in the source form or any derivative works that you are redist that you distribute all copyright, patents, trademarks, and attribution notices from the original work. In the original work includes a notice file, you must preserve its attribution notices in your distribution. A notice file, source, docs, generated display. They do have a notice file. They in fact do have a notice file. That's pretty important. Okay. So, like that's that's a thing. See, these are things I don't even know about. I not that. By the way, this is not legal advice. This is Grock advice. I assume Grock is close as in hand grenades. Not close as in not close as in legally correct. I don't know how correct it is. I just know that it's it's close as in hand grenades. They forgot the license file, though. Well, no, no, no. Sim SIM had the license file right here. So, that was the license file and the notice file. So they had both of them. All right. So the copyright holders, the original developer, project owners and assignees can sue landmark cases such as Jacobson versus Katsner establishes that violating open source license conditions like attributions, disclosures enforceable as copyright infringement, not merely a contract claim. This uh opens the door for full copyright remedies. Interesting. Let's see. The actual damages suffered by the copyright holder. All right, that could be who knows what that is. the infringed profits uh attributed to that like if this is a if this pathways product of Delve is like if this is to be believed again I don't know anything about law please I don't know anything about the law so if this is to be believed like and if you could argue that Delve Delve is uh one of their key components to a sale is this Pathways product I mean that could that could make up a gigantic lawsuit statutory damages up to 150,000 per infringed work if the copyright was registered before the infringement and it was uh will full though many openour projects are not formally registered. Attorneys fee. Okay. Impounding of infringement materials. Okay. Interesting. So, software devs can sue the same kinds of damages as the music industry and book publishers. Okay. But can't delvers uh just take the uh bag and dip? Well, I don't I assume they're American citizens and I assume I'm just making first I'm going to make the assumption that they're both American citizens, both Sim and Delve. And if that's the case, that is going to cause really big problems, right? You can't just like take the bag and dip. It's not easy to do that. Bold assumption. I don't think it's a bold assumption. They went to MIT. They started a company together. I'm just going to make the assumption that that's what they happened. Right. Remember, the original owners haven't sued Del. It's a YC third party kicking them out. Yes, true. I would assume that if there is a lawsuit, it takes a while before it like they don't just announce they're going to sue you. They're going to first do a bunch of research, make sure they're in the clear, make sure that they have a good case, and then they're going to just drop it all on you at once, right? But you can dip out of the bag. It's hard. I mean, they're uh they make a public statement. We're closing blah blah. Uh pay the 150k and split the rest. I don't know. Again, that it's easy for us to say because we aren't the ones in the situation. You know what I mean? I think that's all I want to really talk about with Delve. I think Delve um it's crazy how much if all of this is actually the what we're we're listening to like if all of these allegations are actually true then it's just crazy what a couple of I would assume they didn't start off being like we can't wait to screw people right they I think likely what ended up happening if if this all comes about as being true they probably just wanted they probably just wanted to do a startup so bad they knew they could do it they just were this close like AI was just this close it was this close and then they couldn't quite get it all to work is probably like what it it sounds like to me. Uh, it's all about the YC sauna party bond. It's not about legal. Okay, pick YC sauna party bond. Yeah, it's it's VC politics. Those faces are pure evil. I don't think those faces are pure evil. They look like two kids. I've never been put in that situation. I was never 20 years old with $300 million company with a bunch of people telling me to move fast, right? Like one would hope I would act good, but I've also never been there, right? I believe Delve's original YC pitch was medical transcription. Oh, wow. That's kind of crazy. Is it really that hard to comply or their problems? Yes. I mean, SOCK 2 is hard. I know that there's a lot of companies that that that do sock 2 through a third party because it is that difficult. Even kids do life in prison. True. Fast in, fast out. Yeah, Sock 2 is really hard. That's all I know is it's really hard and I have no idea what it is. Oh. Oh, I missed this. That Okay, that has to be the funniest thing about this whole Delve situation. If Delve did take this open-source library, SIM uh SIM whatever it's called, SIM AI, and taking this Apache licensed library and which requires you to bring over the license and the notice and kind of do all the attributions to the original work and declare I think your modifications and all that. If they didn't do that, which they apparently didn't, and SOCK 2 compliance requires that licenses are a part of it. It's kind of funny that the Sock 2 company couldn't sock too. That is that's there's something about that that is just like it's I like it. I like it. Makes me happy. They never said they were socktail. One would assume.