S1E21 - Katherine Dee

Hello and welcome to the Futurist Letter Show. My name is Cairo Smith. I am the founder and editor-in-chief of Futurist Letters, the journal. I am also the host of the Futurist Letters Show. Today I am joined by my co-host, Kenny White. Hey, Kenny.

>> Hey, what's up, Cairo?

>> Glad to uh glad to have you at my side here. And we are going to be venturing deep into the depths of the internet on this very special episode. So, uh, if you would like to sponsor the show, this is where your sponsor message will go. You can catch us with video on Substack and on YouTube. And you can also listen to this on Spotify or through RSS on Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to your uh RSS podcasts.

So, uh, that said, this episode is free. If you would like to, uh, stick around for the after show episode. Kenny and I will just be reflecting on how it went, any other thoughts we had during the episode, and that is available to journal subscribers. So, anyone who subscribes for just a few bucks a month gets access to all the behind-the-scenes notes from our authors on the journal, including myself, and also our after show episodes. So, uh, please do that. It's a really great, easy way to support what we do.

That being said, I would like to, uh, let our guest for this episode introduce herself. She is Katherine D., you might know her. She is, uh, consistently top ranked or near top ranked on Substack for her work. She is an internet culture reporter. You can find her work all over the internet. and uh I will let you uh hear directly from Katherine who she is and what she does. So Katherine, thank you very much for being on the show.

>> Thanks for having me. Um the after show sounds really sounds really interesting. I was like I want to I want to see like do you guys post about your guests?

>> Lillian Salonic after she came on she said I figured out your scam. you just uh you have people on and then you make them pay for a subscription so they can see what you say about them. I said, "Yeah, you figured it out, Lillian." So, uh maybe that is the scam. I don't know.

>> It's really good.

>> Yeah, but it's it's never anything bad about about the guest, of course. It's always just like, "Oh, did we put our foot in our mouth?" But yeah,

>> still. I mean,

>> so so yeah, for for those who might not know, um who are you? what do you do and how did you come to be doing this?

>> Sure. Um, I'm a blogger. I, um, I write about internet culture almost exclusively. Um, I used to be like a gender wars person and it wasn't me. Just I just felt like the absolute wrong person to be writing that kind of content. Um, I kind of fell into both things. I used to work in tech. So, this is this is what happened. I worked in tech and when I moved to the Bay Area, the guy I was seeing at the time was like, well, first of all, he loved like tech Twitter and he loved tech Twitter personalities. And then second of all, he was like, there's nothing to do here. It's so lonely. It's so boring. So, I had an events newsletter, which is where I part of where I get my name, default friend. Default friend is like the friend you call when like no, you know, no one who you really want to hang out with is available, right? Right. So, I had this events newsletter and I was sort of like um like a nano I don't even want to say celebrity, but I was like kind of known in the startup community. Um I would do like dinners and stuff and take people to parties and whatever. Um and then COVID happened and um I started doing like uh engagement bait like dating takes and I did all sorts of like projects related to this. I also say yes to pretty much everything if someone invites me on a show or wants me to contribute to something or wants me to do matchmaking with them, which is what what ended up happening. And so I was doing that for a while and I was writing for any publication that would ask. And then over time I developed my own voice and interests and I shifted from doing these like dating takes to writing about internet subcultures. I'd sort of been doing that in my professional life. Um, I I wrote about um like obscure subcultures that uh we might be able to advertise to when I was in tech. Um, and I I looked at different subcultures to see like what what can we learn from them to make our advertising more interesting. Um, and then I I I funneled that into this sort of like freelance anthropology, which is what I'm doing now. Um, and I have columns I have columns all over the place. I have a column in tablet, uh, The Dispatch, The Spectator. I'm a pretty regular contributor to Pirate Wires. Um, I write for Unheard a few times a month. So, I I I do a lot of stuff on top of my blog, which is default.blog. Um, and I think I think that's I think that's a summary.

>> But, uh, you know, it's funny. there were all these words um for you know socialites, columnists, women of letters in I feel like the late 19th century and then we had this big sort of corporate media uh wave of and this these like very high-flying you know vogue uh splashy six figure salary writing jobs of the 20th century and then obviously we had the sort of implosion of magazines the death of that and now it almost seems like we're sort of remaking what was, you know, 150 years ago as far as being a freelance writer and and having these little presses. I don't know, Kenny, you know, you you've worked in tech, you've lived in the Bay. Do um how does this all come off to you? Is it is it is it funny to sort of have this sort of uh I don't know just running into people that you may have been a few feet from here and there in life you know uh Katherine's description of the social scene in the Bay Area definitely felt very spot-on. Uh I could have used a default friend I'm sure to you know help me.

>> You should have signed up for the newsletter.

>> I well I didn't even know about it. as this thing, you know, just like there's just like layers and layers of of access and apparently I was a layer below. Uh I think also I was in the crypto space which in SF was somewhat uh I felt like it was like a like kind of in a parallel track to the rest of the startup scene there for for better and for worse. But I definitely San Francisco is interesting because on the one hand I feel like it's written about a lot. People are always curious about the culture there and what's happening. But then when you get there, you feel like there's some sort of I know both there's like both energy in the air, but also a lack of socializing going on. It's hard to really put into words the the paradox of the San Francisco social scene.

>> Katherine, did you go to SF from somewhere else? Where did you grow up?

>> Um, I grew up in Florida, but I had been living in Texas. Um, and then I moved to San Francisco for a job.

>> Well, San Jose. I didn't even really live in San Francisco proper. I worked um I worked in Sunnyale and I lived in San Jose and my um my workplace had buses up to San Francisco. So, I would take the bus from San Jose to Sunnyvale, which isn't that long. And then I then after work, like it felt like after school, like actually like this workplace felt like school. I would take the bus up to San Francisco and then, you know, go do a bunch of stuff till late at night and then Uber back to San Jose, which is like kind of insane.

>> And you're now not anywhere near California, right? You're in uh Chicago. Is that right?

>> Yep. I'm in I'm in Chicago. Um I visit the Bay Area like quite often. Um, I'm going again this this weekend. Um, and I was there weekend before last and I was actually supposed to go this weekend, but my son fell and I felt guilty leaving him.

>> Oh, is he is he okay?

>> He Yeah, he's totally fine. He does have a black eye, though, which is like he just uh he just tripped up the like some rubber stairs at a playground and it like and he and he did he didn't even notice what happened. He was just like ready to get back playing and I'm like, "Oh my god, you look like you just got beat up. They all fell down the stairs. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, I guess that's what playgrounds are for, you know. They say uh

>> I don't know. I know it's like there's certain things like they think IBS is from not being exposed to enough dirt and germs. So, you can get this like immune issue. Yeah. It's like it's linked to like this like cleanliness, festidiousness. Um at least I read that. Who knows? I don't know if I believe half the studies I read anymore.

>> I kind of believe that. But, you know, I you know, I've been thinking about that recently because um there's all these like antibiotic uh resistant bacterias and like new bacterias that are I mean it's real, right? Like this like

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the the city will be like, "Oh, so there's like at playgrounds there's splash pads, uh, which are like little fountains and, you know, for people who don't have kids that are up off the ground. They're like playing in sprinklers. And what happens is like lots of toddlers will go play in those and like sit with their full diapers and stuff on it. And so they become like I mean just disgusting, but they'll become like these like hot spots for bacteria to spread. And a lot of these outbreaks are becoming like increasingly more dangerous. And so it's and it's it's not I don't think it's like safety theater or any or anything. It's like pretty gnarly to get sick in this way. Um, but then

>> these antibiotic resistant bacteria.

>> Yeah. Um

>> and you know another place you could get them is like hospitals and stuff. But anyway, the point is it's like a really tough negotiation between like how do you not like how do you balance not being too neurotic about cleanliness and then this like new very real threat um that like didn't exist when I was a kid at least not in the same way and it's become it seems like it's becoming increasingly threatening as time goes by. I mean, it's just like

>> it's it's tough because I kind of do buy the IBS thing. I want to ask because you know the internet is this strange place and you've written a lot about ways to conceptualize the internet. Um, I obviously started on the internet as a child a teenager. I you've interviewed a lot of people who spent their childhoods online. Did you spend your childhood online?

>> Yeah. Yeah. M. And so you've gone from child to college student to young professional and now to young mother with the internet as this sort of throughine through all of it. And and yet there are still new kids coming onto the internet every day, especially in these sort of weird extremist or or underground subcultures. Do you h how do you navigate the fact that the internet is still this place of kids and teens as you get older? Do you feel like your relationship with it changes?

>> Um, well that's that's the thing. I don't I it felt much younger when I was younger and I think that's partially like a perception thing because I was in spaces more geared towards young people. But now what I think is happening is there's a lot of age mixing that we don't really think about. Um, like like something that like will occur to me every now and then and I actually like I don't really know how to handle it is like there's teenagers there's a lot of teenagers who read my blog. It is not written to be appropriate for teenagers. Um, and I don't when I'm writing, um, you know, at least until like very recently, I haven't really been thinking about like what like who are my readers and what am I exposing them to?

>> Um, and I think like that's kind of new at this scale. Um, there's always been mixed ages, you know, like I was talking to adults when I was 12, right? Which is whatever not what I'm doing, but like um it's it this is this has been a problem since day one is my point. Um, but what's different is like the scale. Like millennials grew up online, but then they're like never logged off. Like they're still online.

>> Yeah.

>> And same with Zoomers. And there's there's more and more people on the internet. Um, and as everyone's online, there's going to be like more sort of mixing and there really aren't any spaces anymore that are like kids only and that are safe for kids. And that's where you get sort of like the real and imagined dangers of something like Roblox where um it'll be like one of the problems with Roblox which is a um mostly browser based uh like open world game um that's ostensibly for children but really people of all ages play it um is like you'll have like teenagers who are being sort of like developmentally appropriate edge lords um you know making like dick jokes or whatever like who cares Right. Um, but there'll also be like an 8-year-old where it's like, you know, the dick joke is funny from a 15-year-old or at least appropriate to some extent, but like you don't want your 8-year-old necessarily interacting with that. And then in that mix, um, every now and then, not as often as the media might make it seem, but often enough to be concerned as a parent, you have predators walking in who who pose both a danger to the 15-year-old making the sophomoric jokes and the 8-year-old exposing themselves to jokes that are not developmentally appropriate. So, there's I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of problems that I think are uh intentional and unintentional.

>> Do you think the discourse around child predators both online and off has been completely subsumed into the culture war? Because I I don't remember child predators being politicized as much when I was um

>> Are they politicized now? Is there a right left take on child predators? I thought you're all like against child predators or is there like a different way of being against it? Now,

>> it it can be politicized like um you know I mean I don't know if this is cuz I feel like growing up if there was like a gay science teacher or something, right? There would be certain parents who are concerned about that because they're homophobic, right? Like no no real reason. Um, and I think that's like, you know, like Libs of Tik Tok is basically like industrializing what would have been like gossip among a few Christian parents or something.

>> So, what's on Libs of Tik Tok? I I What are the What's the kind of content that they serve there?

>> Um, they do a lot of It's It's interesting because So, it's this woman, Ty Raj.

>> Yeah. It's just one woman, right?

>> Yeah. And she

>> and she had some sort of beef, some like reality TVesque beef with Taylor Lauren.

>> Yeah. Taylor Loren showed up to her house to to you know who is this woman, right?

>> Um

>> lib so libs of Tik Tok, you know. So originally like 2020 like like thick of co um it was sort of it was like me cold healing and and libs of Tik Tok would post like the excesses of Tik Tok because it was easy engagement bait. Um, I've like since deleted my thread because I felt like it was it was sort of like unethical to do this, but I would post like the most ridiculous Tik Toks I could find. And and that's cold healing. He's um another Twitter account and he does the same thing. He and I both were like more sort of goodnatured about it, you know, like I didn't I wasn't asking anyone to like go and harass these people. I was just sort of like uh you know, like oh this woman is is saying that she's like literally a bird or something, you know, just something kind of like out there,

>> right? just sort of for for people's interest

>> like other kin type thing like on the border of

>> going from social justice into like psychosis

>> almost.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's something like that, right? Or like um someone cooking something like very disgusting, you know? It was all there's all sorts of like weird things. And Cold Healing sort of does the same thing.

>> But then in comes Libs of Tik Tok who started after both of us. Um, and she instead of instead of just sort of these like obvious kind of like I feel I feel sort of bad saying this, but like these sort of like sideh shows that like probably were already going viral, whatever. She took people who were like

>> Yeah. who she took people who were like more like um left or or progressivecoded. So let's say like a preschool teacher who was also talking about um LGBTQ rights or something like this and she started like she started rage baiting. So whereas like someone like myself for cold healing was sort of it's still questionable if this was ethical but still you know was saying like oh look at this weird thing we found online. She was like, "You should be angry about this." And she grew really, really quickly. Um, and she was like a regular on Tucker Carlson back when he was still on Fox. Um, and she became this she was like a darling of the GOP and like Elon Musk really liked her. And now she she does like a lot of different culture war topics, but originally her bread and butter was like frankly just like making fun of like queer people and also buying into any like even if it was like a hoax, right? she would just like amplify sort of any sort of moral panic and um you know I don't think she uh is I I I think the way she was talked about maybe was like overstated in some ways but she was doing like genuinely cruel things like people were getting called at their work um they were you know there she was she was exposing uh people's locations um and for the most part it was it was it was most it was mostly people who were doing nothing wrong. Every now and then there'd be someone where it was just sort of like maybe someone should have called them out, but for the most part it was just people who were like, you know, like a butch lesbian teaching preschoolers or something. It's like that didn't need that that, you know, woman didn't need to be humiliated because uh libs of Tik Tok thought that was uh, you know, not safe for four-year-olds or something.

>> Sure. At a certain point, it just becomes look how ugly this person is. just look how they've styled themselves in this way that that it seems grotesque guy. I I I vaguely followed all of that and I do think I mean you think about do you I want to ask you this. How much stake do you put in this um narrative that Gamergate was the domino that led to Donald Trump?

>> Um, I think in in some ways that's true.

>> Okay.

>> Wait, can I interject for some context? What is Gamergate?

>> I think Katherine should explain this. I could try, but she'll do a better job.

>> Um, so there was a uh female game journalist uh named Zoe Quinn or sorry, she was in it. She was a

>> She was a game developer. She made a game Impression Quest,

>> right? I misspoke. and she received she received um a lot of good reviews, right? And it was supposedly because she had slept around for these reviews. And this this started this chain reaction um of people being angry about ethics in games journalism, but it was more it was there was this broader problem um where you know the culture of video games was changing like video games were becoming for lack of a better term like more woke. um the the way games were reviewed, you know, were to to use language that's, you know, uh more inclusive, you know, scare quotes, right? And so,

>> yeah, things like booth babes were all of a sudden being looked at as something declass or problematic. the the sort of the the the teenage boys uh fantasy was no longer like the the Zeus of the gaming pantheon, you know, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And so what ended up happening was there's like there's a bunch of like weird things that happen in Gamergate. So it it the the long story short is it it ends up as this sort of war of like the gamers who are mostly congregating on um Twitter and image boards and then the media and academics, right? And it's these two sides. So it's like social justice warriors verse the gamers. But what's weird about Gamergate is there was a lot of people who like weren't involved in sort of the original conflict who sort of inserted themselves as characters. Like a really good example of this is Brianna Woo who um

>> and this is 2017 by the way for context. Yeah.

>> Um Right. So Brianna Woo was like not involved.

>> Wait, it's not 2014. Sorry. Cuz pre-Trump

>> Oh, right. Right. It was pre

>> Yes. Yeah. So

>> 2014 2015.

>> So Brianna Woo like inserted herself and like had claimed she had been being harassed. She wasn't. Um, but it was it like turned into like a good vehicle for a lot of people to build their careers on. And they like weren't necessarily there were some people who were being targeted and harassed, but there were people who weren't being targeted and harassed who claimed that they were um and ended up building followers followings off the backs of this. And this sort of happened on, you know, on both on both sides, right? Like people just sort of electing themselves as these like spokespeople. um like uh Milo Yiannopoulos uh blew up >> during Gamergate, Ian Miles Chong, there's a lot of a lot of characters who were um who became who came big during this period. And um yeah, I mean it's very it's very convoluted and there's a lot of like micro events, but the reason that people um think that it led to Donald Trump is because this was like a hu this the SJW stuff had been percolating in the background. There was like dongle gate for example that in like since about 2008 um and this was like a big explosion, right? This was like a big volcano and a lot of people who hadn't been rightcoded or otherwise politically engaged became politically engaged um because of oh well actually not just not just on the right I mean this happened on the right and left became politically engaged as a result of Gamergate and a lot of these people might have you know been at the the edges of it and not really um you know not really cared one way or the other but Gamergate was sort of like the tipping point that started that we started to get really noticeably polarized. Um, and it was because it was like very mediadriven. It was digital. They were still all eyes on digital media. And so, um, it it they were able to have a little bit like more narrative control. Um, and it was sort of like digital media versus like, uh, you know, the counterculture at the time, which are like that's represented by the gamers. So you it's it's much easier to be like these two these two sides.

>> I would I would almost say Gamergate was this collision of these two institutions with their own sets of norms. one basically being like academic/media culture and what you can get, you know, the level of whatever decorum, sexism, egalitarianism, liberalism you can get away with in these spaces, which also sort of included Tumblr, which had a lot of this sort of academic critical theory thought. And then like image boards slash um like literally like Call of Duty lobby culture and the norms around slurs. you know, toxicity, whatever, 4chan, and it's like, and they were just like they were like um, you know, oil and water or worse. They I mean, they just combusted on contact and, uh, around the same time, you know, you think of the ' 80s, 90s, even 2000s, you think of like moral panics around like Mass Effect, like, oh, Alien Sex Simulator, like all the moral scolding was like coming out of the right, you know, the evangelical right. And then you got this shift where it's like, okay, now the moral scolding is kind of coming from the left. And so then these two Gamergate factions ended up kind of like mapping on to what the GOP would become and what the left would become in the 20 late 2010s. You know, it was like this big shift. I don't I I don't know. May maybe that's too simplified, but I kind of

>> it's hard it's hard to it's hard to condense into um you know usually when people say that it's a little bit of a copout, but there's so so much happened during Gamergate. I think this has been like a struggle for like people who have tried to write books about it um or you know tried to like somehow convey it in like an article or something. just it's very difficult to describe um because it really was a situation where there was like both sides were doing um you know like deeply inappropriate things um and it's it's still also very uh divisive right like it's you know it still gets described in this very like in sort of like you know legacy media it still gets described in this very like two-dimensional way

>> is gaming is that about the time when like the the red pill meme became more popular cuz like around 2014 2015 is when I started seeing that come out.

>> So the red pill the red pill meme um has changed meaning over time. It had been popular earlier but it was more associated with like dating culture like red when you would say like you're redpilled or like you were like red pill used to be like exclusively like manosisphere. Um it was a particular way of viewing uh dating and sleeping with women. Um like are the red pill or are red pill women on Reddit was like a very specific kind of like dating subculture. Um and then around that time it started shifting to mean like uh you know you're you're redpilled on politics right like you see you see the truth. Um and a lot of people got redpilled as a result of Gamergate.

>> You know what's hilarious? I'm only realizing this now. If you go down to the etmology red pill, obviously being from the matrix, you know, Neo takes the red pill to wake up. It's pretty much the exact same rhetorical conceit as woke, right? To be woke >> is literally to be awoken to the reality of the world. And the red pill similarly is to be awoken to the reality of existence. Right? Like it's these people saying that like you've broken the conditioning and now you're grasping a greater truth.

>> Well, that's the thing about like partisans in general when you have like a two divided sides is the for lack of a better term extremists on both sides. both kind of value and feed off each other because it's only when you have like libs doing crazy things that that like you can use that as rage bait to grow your following on the right and then vice versa when you have people on the right doing crazy things you can use that as rage bait to grow your following on the left and they they kind of have a way of feeding off each other and and and after hearing Katherine and and Kier description of Gamergate it feels like in a way that was like the like a precursor to that dynamic happening online getting supercharged.

>> It had it it had been happening earlier. Um this was like that's why I like to think

>> for me I remember Dick Wolves when I was like 11 or 12 the the penny arcade thing. Do you remember that Katherine?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> There it had been going on for a long time. Um, like when I was I mean when I started college is when you started having like the um like anti-SJW reaction videos on YouTube which predates Gamergate and cultural appropriation. I mean and then before that uh Donglegate someone had made a joke about a big dongle and got in trouble. Um, there was all so there was all there was this was this was like a leading there was all these like little micro events that led up to Gamergate.

>> Mhm. And also, you know, going on at the same at the same time was we were moving to digital media and reporters budgets were getting slashed. And so a lot of these more obscure identities and beliefs were also being legitimated through digital media, which at the time, you know, people did actually read these things. They'd actually read clickbait. So the the cultural soup was like very strange because like click people were actually consuming clickbait. It wasn't like I feel like right now we're in this weird we're in these filter bubbles where it's like there's all of these like magazines and blogs and stuff and like you know it's unclear like who the audiences for each thing it are and it's like very tough to figure out what's going on. But then it was, even though there was still a lot of slop, it did feel like it had more um influence on the physical world and um how people thought.

>> Yeah, it the the Buzzfeeds, the gawkers, the clickbaits, they they were hanging on. It seems like now almost we have this sort of Cambrian Substack thing where like what happened with podcasts is now happening with text where you get these micro magazines for a couple thousand people. I'm myself running one of them, you know, where everyone just sort of selfassociates into these little things. So, so I want to ask you, you know, there's this perception of polarization that there's this great polarization, this great sort of biodal distribution of culture on the internet. Is that true or is it more multipolar than that?

>> No, I think I think like in wanting um some semblance of coherence like of course there are people who don't really fit into either side, but if you want to grow you you ultimately have to choose an allegiance and so you have these people who are sort of like mismatched. Um, you know, I I when I talk about this, I usually like use myself as an example because it's like I think I'm perceived as being on the right, but I'm not really a writist in the uh, you know, traditional sense. It's just like in this media environment like 10, 15, 20 years ago, I would, you know, I would just be sort of my own thing, right? I would maybe like write for some, you know, some place like Wired or The Village Voice. Um, but we're in such a strange media environment that I like end up, you know, right-wing coded, which is I think there are people who were coded left or right. Um,

>> yeah.

>> And it doesn't matter.

>> I think it at least 5 years ago, 10 years ago, when you were making these choices, and I've seen this a bit, it's a it's it's very easy. There's a web comic that people make fun of that talks about this, but like like writists really want voices that disagree with them in their media environment. Like if there's like a left liberal who is going to write for like a right-wing publication, they're like, "Yeah, come on. Like be a columnist." You know, like in a way that you're not going to see on the other side. So, it's almost like anyone who's a mixed bag, there's this constant attractor toward places like Pirate Wires, for example. You know, um

>> I think you're right. I mean, I do I do think the right is more um is more welcoming in certain ways. And then then there's also the fact that like within the right is a sort of what I call like the heterodox center where you have people like Katie Herszog or uh you know like Bari Weiss where like they're not really rightists but also like the left thinks they're fascists but like

>> I guess Matt Glaciius is a big example of this. He's

>> his whole mission is basically to help Democrats win >> and a lot of people would basically call him a rightist. I mean, that's, you know, what do you do with a guy like that?

>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a it's a very weird um it's a very weird ecosystem.

>> Yeah.

>> I've definitely

>> So, I guess that you already preemptively answered a couple of my questions there, which was how do you fit yourself in there?

>> Yeah. I mean, I'm too um I I I think I'm I'm definitely too sort of like fluid really to be on the right, but um I'm also too fluid in other ways to be on the left. So, I'm kind of just like I I I like heterodox because it's like, well, what else am I going to call myself?

>> Sure. Sure, that makes sense. Um, I feel like I understand who you are, but I don't know if I could actually put it into words. I heterodox to me has this risk of like it sort of shares ground with like obstinate where it almost seems like somebody who is defining themselves to be contrary. And you don't strike me as a contrarian, you just strike me as someone who is

>> assembling a worldview, trying to assemble a worldview outside of these polls, which I guess is is tricky. Um,

>> yeah.

>> Why do you do what you do?

>> That's a that's a good question. Uh, I've like constructed like several different origin stories for myself, you know, like personally, not, you know, not out in the world. And I think I just I I just like it. Um, I like talking to people. Um,

>> I think like I was so impacted by the internet that there's a real joy in like understanding the the communities that have formed there. I do um and you know you know this I think better than any anyone who reads me. I do think of the internet as a as a place. Um so I think of like uh like a map sort of helping map its geography. Um, and it's a very very big place. Um, and there's a lot of work to be done and I think people get stuck get get stuck and they don't conceptualize it the right way. So they're not uh there it it really it really benefits to our understanding to think of it as a physical place almost with many different tribes that live there. I guess the difference being the geography of the earth stays pretty similar for millions of years and the geography of the internet is almost shifting year by year or decade by decade. Uh you know new land masses come and go.

>> Yeah.

>> And and some get lost forever.

>> Do you think that the work you're doing has a greater permanence than the things you study? which is to say like obviously internet subcultures are so ephemeral. Will your work studying them be sort of like a more permanent record of these people and how they lived?

>> Um I don't think they're as ephemeral as it seems on the surface. Um because they keep Yeah, because they a lot of them are very old and they keep reinventing themselves and there's a lot of value and like finding where the thread begins and seeing how things changed and and grew like um like you know like one that's like very very old is like one of these communities that I think like people like rubberneck a lot are multiple systems or dissociative identity disorder also known as multiple personality disorder. Um, they're not it's not one big community. There's multiples like they they don't all identify as having did, you know, what have you. But it it is something that has been online for a very long time. Um and there have been like elders from the multiple community who have like moved and migrated from platform to platform. And you might not realize it or like you know not everyone in the community might realize it but there is like a sense of continuity and it's true with like other kin as well. There's so I guess what I'm trying to say is like a lot of things that seem new are actually really old and they're not only really old but like the founders of these communities in many cases remain and sort of just end up blending into the background. Um but you can but you start understanding like how certain things came to be, why they have the flavor they have. Um, you know why certain decisions were made, why certain language um was chosen like with otherkin like where does that word even come from? Well, it started off

>> Yeah. Explain if you would what this is for our audience.

>> Sure. So otherkin are people who feel like they are in a human body with a non-human soul. Um, and this is I mean this is a very common thing and there's many different internet c subcultures around this. But how the word came to be was originally there was these fan fan letters or like fanzines uh that were sent around by this group called the silver elves. They were elf kin, right? So they thought that they um they had el elven spirits and this and the backdrop of this is the paperback for Lord of the Rings had just come out and this caused an explosion in neopaganism. Um but it also uh

>> in the '7s

>> Yes. So this also this also had an explosion of like liveaction role playing communities and sort of like Renaissance fair style communities around Lord of the Rings. So this is where the elf can come. And so when they moved to a list serve, so when they moved to email, um there you know some someone said something like this is for elfkin or you know other kin and it was originally like other space kin,

>> right? And then from there it developed and and grew over time and as they migrated to different platforms they uh absorbed different social norms and they splintered and there's you know there's different subgroups but but every but every subculture is like this. Um

>> is this a kind of dysphoria to think that your soul is elven or wolven or whatever?

>> Um I guess yeah I I guess it it can be um some pe some people they'll they'll get like surgeries to better match um

>> right

>> or like they'll feel comfortable online

>> and I've have the advantage of having heard you talk a little about this um at the uh what was it called the philosophical research institute uh

>> but I I almost wonder if like this sort of descrying this process of leaving your body to go onto the internet. It it accentuates this mindbody dualism, you know, like you spend so much time inhabiting an avatar that your body feels more optional, you know, and not a part of the self. Do you see do you see this in people who are online a lot?

>> Yeah, I mean all the time. And you see it in like ordinary people too where like you know like one place that it's you know and it's been written about now like by big uh publications is like if you're seeing yourself mostly through like your Tik Tok camera Tik Tok makes you look a little bit different than you do even in the mirror and you look different in the mirror >> than you do in a a and a photograph taken with a backfacing phone camera or even a real camera. Um, and so people start uh they it starts creating like this dissonance like the person I really am is the person through my the front-facing Tik Tok camera. Um, and so they'll pursue surgery to to look more like that. Not just with the filter, but just the the way the lens is. Um, so that I mean that's like one sort of more like ordinary version, but I think it I think it like manifests in other ways like you might feel um like you might I think you become like attached to your profile picture on social media um and like let's say you have like an anime girl PFP on uh Twitter and people sort of subconsciously treat you with the emotions they ascribe to that image and then you for whatever reason. Um, you know, absorb that in your your own way and you feel uh sexier or maybe you feel uh more mischievous or you feel any which way but your physical body is like uh you know totally in congruous with that. um it you start to feel uncomfortable in in the physical world and I think I think like everyone has experienced this um in in different forms you know it's it's in more or less extreme ways um and I think it can be really um difficult and it's like one of the one of these things that um I think we all know but we struggle to put into words. It's I think it's safest to talk about sort of like the selfie dysmorphia. Um but the problem is um I think people are hesitant to talk about it in depth because one conclusion that I think people have drawn from this or could draw from this is it somehow like invalidates transgender identity. And I think that's part of the big fear around talking about the mind body disconnect as um you know as related to the internet and people you know they don't want to even open up that can of worms and I probably shouldn't have myself but it's sort of the elephant in the room with this discussion. Um and you know my answer to that is just because this exists doesn't mean that other phenomenon can't exist.

>> Sure. And even now I mean look how elliptically we approach the subject here on the show. I think I think there is this sort of uh like Straussian technique people use where they you you you try to discuss these issues in such a way that the right listener will pick up on it and yet you're not creating a sound bite that is going to uh you know lead to I what did I have I had somebody emailing me the other day. You know, they actually teach you you're not supposed to talk about people who harass you on the internet, I think, because that encourages more people to do it. So, I'm going to take my small amount of media training and leave that one be. But it's there are some weirdos out there for sure.

>> Of course. Yeah, there there definitely are. Um, yeah, it's uh it's it can it can be hard. You know, for me, this is always something I run into because like, you know, I was thinking about this when we were talking about lives of Tik Tok. Like I I both think there can be like very ridiculous expressions of identity and that there is something very real and worth respecting there. I think like other can um is a very good example of this. Like I don't think it's I actually don't think it's like necessarily ridiculous to feel like you have the soul of an elf or a dolphin or a bird or whatever. And you know this is something that's well established in you know religion and uh you know there's mythological stories about this and there's many different ways that could be understood and expressed and it's um I think very like closed-minded and myopic to um immediately discount that as like somehow this like absurd experience that is like worthy of making fun of. At the same time, you know, if a uh, you know, 22-year-old Starbucks barista is um, flapping her wings like a bird at her place of work and being kind of silly and maybe it's um, and maybe she's even consciously joking, right? Like

>> there is there's humor in that and it's it's

>> or creating a challenge where it's like I have so little control over my life. If I feel so exploited by my work or my school or society, I'm going to create an identity for myself where I can hold this line in the face of people who might feel annoyed or might want to push back and just go, "No, this is me. Accept it." And like you're you're choosing a place to make a stand for something. It almost doesn't matter what it is, you know? You just you you want to assert yourself

>> against the world in a way, you know? Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I I totally agree. But when you're talking about it on a show, you know, it's like it's so, you know, like some like sometimes I do I do

Want to laugh at some of these things, but I also don't want to invalidate anyone. Um, but then also there's this other thing where it's like something can be real, but um, you know, in some circumstances inappropriate or maybe like it goes against my personal um, ethics. Like there's so it's so hard to to represent some of these issues partially because people are so ready to clip things and yell at you and be mad at you. It's like very like you it's it's you be everyone sort of ends up painting themselves in a corner and sometimes that corner is just uh you know saying [ __ ] it and being as uh inflammatory as possible right out of the gate.

I think this is one reason why the subcultures kind of bifurcate, right? Is because you have your circle that you trust and you care what they think and you feel comfortable expressing yourself according to that like subcultures norm. When someone from outside the culture says like, "Haha, isn't that like crazy?" and then tries to >> harass you for it, you don't take it quite as personally because they're outside of the group you care about. It feels like just the nature of human human beings interacting at at scale at this kind of scale which has never happened before in history of the universe. Uh you kind of have to create these subcultures in a way to survive.

>> Yeah to I I I totally agree. Um you something I I return to a lot in my work and um on shows too is in a you know in a lot of ways I was happiest um well it's tough. I'm pretty happy now because I, you know, I have a a beautiful family. But be, but that aside, I think I was very happy when, you know, I I only really knew about and interacted with my immediate environment. And I was still very online, but my chief concerns were like, you know, like I took a dance class every day and there was different drama and gossip or whatever that happened in that community. And then I had a religious community I was very committed to. Um, and it was just like the same 15 people and that was it. And it was very low stakes in like a broader sense. Um, but also I was just like I knew everyone and everything in my life very intimately and very, you know, very immediately and it wasn't mediated at all. Um, and so it was uh I think I was like just happier like those were my my concerns just you know like so and so at dance class is doing a [ __ ] job and that the performance is going to be crap and whatever you know then that was that that was sort of like I think the best way to be.

There is this tension with people who are very online especially people in their 20s and 30s I think where you back in the liberal days of Twitter people would say hell site a lot. Oh look at this hell site right and yet you know basically the idea that being here is some sort of punishment. It makes us miserable and yet of course we log in every day. Does this suggest some sort of compulsive or like addictive self-sabotaging behavior that people describe the internet so negatively and yet they constantly log on or are they just sort of being insincere about the good?

>> I think it's both. Um

>> I think a lot of people feel like they have no other place to go. Um,

>> you know, to to to bring back the point about like my dance class, like for a lot of people like the world their particular Twitter filter bubble is their dance class, you know, like it serves the same purpose for them and it feels bigger than it is.

>> Uh, but it's actually very small.

>> Um, and it it helps them make sense of the world even if they hate it and you become used to it and you don't want to leave.

Do you think third places have actually dried up as people have gone online or do you think there are still vital vibrant third places just as much as in decades past?

>> What's a third place?

>> Sorry.

>> Like a coffee coffee shop or a park or shopping mall like a a a

>> public place where you can socialize.

>> Yeah.

>> With people that are not your immediate circle.

>> Um, yes and no. I think it depends on where you are. Um, I think in some places they definitely have. In um, other places they haven't. I think there are also a lot of um, cities that try to revitalize and nobody's coming or the wrong people are coming. Um, and by the wrong people I mean like uh, you know, people just want to take advantage of the situation or who are like a nuisance in some way. Um, you know, who leave litter or are rude. um like

>> unconscientious people.

>> Yeah. Um you know I like when I lived in Austin and this is like 10 years ago now. Um it did feel like there were a lot of attempts at like having events to bring people together. Um and a lot of them were failures. like either the event would like they put more effort into the title on the Facebook event page than the actual event or nobody came or people came and were just on their phones or the people who did come were there just to be like kind of rude for whatever reason. Um so that's like one thing but then like in Chicago for example it feels like everyone really participates and tries their best and is trying to have a good time and is trying to get to know people. Um, I pointed out a perfect segue into something I wanted to ask you about.

>> Sure.

>> Which is that you were recently a participant in an official Substack event, right?

>> Yes.

>> This was a debate.

>> Yes.

>> And and so tell us a little about what this was and and what you did and how it all came about.

So, I saw Substack was hosting a bunch of events in New York and I sent them an email and I said, "Uh, there's lots of people in Chicago doing here." And they said, "Sure, let's plan something." Um,

>> you initiated this?

>> Yeah. I was like, "Why not me?" basically. Um and um so they one they they have a couple of like uh formats that they do these events in and we weren't sure like what would be a good fit and finally we were like let's try a debate and um I write a lot about um sex on the internet or topics you know related to sex and the internet um and people always uh you know you're always going to show up for sex related things. Um, yeah.

>> And you know, the rest the rest is history. Uh, I helped them choose a venue. I mean, I I I was really hands-on in the organizing of it. We did it at a circus.

>> Um, I chose the I chose the place. Um, we went through quite a few other places before we landed on that one. There was like the surgical museum, but it was like

>> the the room was too thin and the seats were kind of men. It was hot. Um, and there was

>> Were you perhaps dealing with an older Korean woman in booking the venue? because apparently uh Lily and Wang Salonic, my off and on co-host, her mother is the events coordinator for the event uh space where you did that debate.

>> I I don't I don't think so, but maybe someone on Substack's end.

>> It's a small world, you know. It's really a small world.

>> Crazy. That is that is a very small world situation.

>> So, she was mad that her mom didn't tell her that this was happening so she could come. But, uh, yeah,

>> that's too bad. Okay. So, so, uh, there were a few people there. It's funny. I've like spoken personally. Well, now you and um, Blassie and uh, Aya. Is, is it two syllables? Ayah, or is it three syllables? Aella.

>> It's Aya. A lot of people get her name wrong.

>> How many How many syllables is that?

>> A.

>> Oh, I think a

>> Okay. Yeah, that's what I thought. All right. So, she was there and I don't even know how to describe her, but she I've written I think we have a beef technically because I wrote something.

>> Is she left coded or right coded? That's what I want to know.

>> Well, she's right coded for sure.

>> She's right coded.

>> She's kind of she's kind of drifting into the center left. feel in terms of like uh you know her genre, not not her beliefs, but um

>> I would say she's like Hananian in her beliefs a bit.

>> She's a li they're they're both very libertarian, I would say.

>> I mean, so I I actually know less about Hania's beliefs, but Aya for sure, I would say libertarian.

>> So out of the loop. Okay. Hania is right.

>> Richard Hania is like a postight guy.

>> Yeah. kind of like he sort of like took the Richard Spencer arc but a couple years later.

>> Sorry, this all sounds so brain rotty when you say it out loud.

>> Sorry for making you guys do that. I I'm just, you know, I'm still like I'm I'm still coming I didn't know who Charlie Kirk was really until like a few weeks ago. And so I'm still getting up to speed on the internet. Like

>> Aya is like a she's a writer. She's a pop sexologist. She does big studies on sexual feelings and uh an influencer and a high-end escort. That's her deal.

>> Triple threat.

>> And she created

>> and I guess also a debater.

>> Yeah. And a rational

>> and she made like a board game about taboos and season.

So So how was it? How was the experience?

>> It went really well. Um, I felt like kind of underprepared. Um, I wasn't like sure how to prepare. And then Blaz and I like didn't meet up beforehand, but I think we thought on our feet. We did pretty well. Um, it was I mean, one thing that really stood out to me is nobody was on their phone cuz I was also I participated, but I also MCEd and I was like looking out into the the audience and everyone was like engaged and I I and it was also a packed house. So, it felt like a huge success for me. I was like, "Wow,

>> congratulations. That's a huge accomplishment, by the way. That's that's really cool."

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah. Well done.

>> Thank you.

>> I I I'm hoping maybe I um I'm not sure who we would get, but it would be very cool to do something like that in LA. Actually, one of my first introductions to this kind of heterodox internet writer nonsense was um the uh there's a similar topic. Uh the free press did the uh has the sexual revolution failed debate.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Were you at that or did you know of that?

>> I didn't I didn't end up going because I was like

>> I was a very big pregnant woman. My son was very very heavy and I was just like too large to like move. So I was like, I'm just not going to

>> understandable. Great excuse.

>> I was like, this is just

>> what was the outcome of debate of the debate? Did did the sexual revolution fail?

>> Um this actually the not failed one very slightly. Yes. And that that was uh I believe it was Sarah Haidair and Grimes were arguing that it had not failed and they made a slightly better argument. Um, so I think it was deserved. But yeah, what was the outcome? I want to know of the Chicago debate.

>> So we had multiple topics. Um, and the the topic that I did is is the internet reprogramming our sexuality or is it innate? Um, it's sort of a bad question. I'm I'm going to be honest. Um, interesting discussion though. Um, Ayla and Paul Bloom, who's a a psychologist at University of Toronto, were arguing that our sexual desires are in. So, we weren't arguing about sexual orientation, but sexual desires. Um, and they were saying it's innate.

>> And I and I was saying or Blazy and I were saying that certain aspects of it might be innate. So like you might you might be predisposed to wanting to be dominated or something but that particular the particular expression of that is um culturally informed and our culture is internet culture. Um and Paul Bloom and AO are on the opposite of that and they they actually won.

>> Interesting. I it's difficult because obviously there could be a synthesis of these. Um, I tend to sort of

>> lean toward your side that these things are malleable. Were you placed on these sides based on what you really believe or were you sort of arbitrarily given a position or kind of both?

>> Based on based on what we believed.

>> Okay. Okay. I see. Um, would you do something like this again?

>> Um, I don't know if I'm great at debating, but I would MC another

>> MC. Okay.

>> Yeah. I'm trying to do

>> that. My inclination as well. I don't know if I would debate. I'm not trained. Okay.

>> Yeah. I I um I get like I like So, one of the reasons uh Paul and Ala one is one of the studies that I um used had only it it wasn't it was never replicated. There's only five people in the study. It just sort of is like a flashy sort of like sounds good if you say it. But I had printed out a stack of studies. But I was so nervous cuz there's all these people there and I was like, "Oh, I look like a nerd shift like shuffling through my papers that I didn't mention them cuz I was like so I was like, I got to be funny and charming." And then I like I couldn't like I my papers weren't organized. I don't know. And I didn't mention any of them. But if I was more comfortable with public speaking and debating, I would have just sucked it up and been like this study and like why' I print all this [ __ ] out if I'm not going to use it?

I I have a question about this debate or about this about the overall question which is so I I'm thinking about examples of internet subculture especially visav like sexual desires and the example that's sort of screaming in my mind is like the furry community like I have no doubt that you know that community like these are genuine desires that they have and it's it's something that they really enjoy. going and it's very meaningful for them. But that said, like it's hard to see it as in any way, shape, or form that's not at least partially culturally mediated. Like the whole like, you know, nylon plastic furry suits didn't exist. Like it's only because of our culture that they have these things

>> and our industrial processes.

>> Yeah. And that's not culture. Like I mean you don't see that in the Middle Ages that I'm aware of. Um so

>> well the that one I I thought about that one too and I was like oh well that's sort of like a kill shot. But, you know, when I've spoken and I I I'm sure Aya would say the same thing when I've spoken to people in the furry community or when I've not even spoken to them when like this is something that's super common when you read like their um like diaries or you watch documentaries or something. Something that comes up all the time is that they realized they were they might not have had the name for it and it might not have been explicitly sex which certainly wasn't explicitly sexual but they realized they had an attraction to anthropomorphic animals when they were exposed to Disney movies. Um, and this is like when you watch there's there's one documentary that I really like about the furry community called Ruckus. And um, the documentarian is introduced to the furry community through this young woman who like I think like really liked the Lion King or something and had like Lion King stuffed animals. If I'm remembering correct, it's it's like a three-hour long movie and the last time I watched it was when it premiered at South by Southwest in 2016. But this is like an identifiable type, you know, where it's like this person goes on to become a f become a furry. Like they have this

>> is it possible that the act of imprinting on the Disney movie is what's creating the the paraphilia that what they see as something being awakened in them is actually them being changed by the media.

>> I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the causality is. even if it's like innate, which I'm I'm prepared to believe that it that it probably is innate, at least for some people, that the way

>> how does it express itself outside of a society that, you know, doesn't have anthropomorphic

>> Yeah.

>> cartoon animals. I I agree.

>> Like what what is the core

>> because it what's interesting about a lot of furries is like the core desire isn't towards animals,

>> right? Like there is certainly a subset of furries um that are interested in animals, but what makes someone a furry is like cartoon animals, a specific style that is very common in comic books and

>> you know movies and stuff like where I agree like what is

>> is is there something hypnotic about that art style to certain people like I don't know like what is the core thing that's attracting them? I remember getting into this large argument. I think I must have been in my early 20s. I was probably just out of college and my mom was talking about my uh my sibling being in high school and they're being you know how high schools have these officially sponsored clubs like a teacher has to like agree to sponsor the club and then they get resources and stuff. There was a furry club at this high school,

>> okay?

>> And they were basically the this high schoolers were acting like this wasn't weird at all. It was just like any other identity club. Why shouldn't it be a group? And I was arguing to my mother. No, these are zoo files. These are creeps. They shouldn't be allowed to. And I was like I was being like very harsh. And my mother was like, they just like the the suits and the ears and the nose and you know, I don't know. It it is it is sort of a cultural battleground, I guess.

>> Yeah. It's it's I you know, furries have been there sort of like the original like law cow community in a lot of ways because as for as long as there's been an internet there have been furries and for as long as there have been furries, there's been people to make fun of them, but they're not they're not all zoo files. I mean, there's certainly there's overlap, but it's not it's not everyone.

>> Sure. Sure. We should have we should you know I feel bad we should get Trace Wood Grains on here. He was our actually our very first guest that we recorded

>> was Grains. I know he has a lot of strong takes on freedom. Um

>> yeah we didn't get to that side but I guess that's why we need to follow up.

>> No we so we'll get him back. We'll get him back for a furry episode. Um, I the internet it's like this is another thing I want to ask and Kenny I want to make sure anything you want to get to we address but I want to ask you Katherine is there institutional money interested in supporting internet ethnography.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot.

>> Yeah, I mean, it happens in academia like arguably fan studies which is a study of fandoms um you know which has existed I believe since like the late 80s um as like a proper discipline um is part of internet studies. Sherry Turkl is is one of the most famous internet sociologists ever. Um and you know she was at MIT. I believe she's at Harvard now. I mean like there you know long way of saying there's definitely um there's def the problem the problem is a lot of there's two types of like internet ethnography broad or three types let's say there's the stuff journalists do there's the stuff YouTubers do I think we really sleep on YouTubers um who sort of document internet drama as important kind of archivists of this stuff and then there's stuff that happens

>> video essays

>> yeah um like like I think like the work like for example like Turkey Turkey Tom or Strange Eons like they're they might not have the same uh like quality standards as like someone who's at a legacy publication or who's in academia might have, but it's still it's still recordeping that I think is like very important.

>> The best primary and secondary s I mean you know Herodotus makes [ __ ] up too but he's still our best source for a lot of stuff

>> just cuz no one else was writing it down. One day maybe Turkey Tom in 200 years will be like the best primary source we have for XYZ meme, you know. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um, know your meme. Speaking of that,

>> so yeah, I mean it the problem is um they're either not taken seriously uh or they're like paywalled away in academia. There's like there's this woman I always forget her name. It's like Jilly something, but anyway, she does work on fem cells. um I think she's out of the UK and like she's doing like really really good work but like she gets you know on like these BBC documentaries but her work's not like super well known uh because it's a distribution problem

>> right you know I I was thinking about this because you know how each American president gets a library this is the thing that we do like they're currently building the Obama library I I had this thought I was like you know I don't really think Donald Trump reads. So, it seems a little inappropriate to build like a Trump library for a man who like doesn't read books. And then I was thinking, well, but he is one of the greatest tweeters of all time. So, wouldn't it be appropriate to have the Trump Library be a center for internet history and internet, you know, social media ethnography? So, I think Katherine, I think you should be like the head librarian of like mimetic studies at the Trump Library and it can be like all like OLED screens and you go in and you're basically like taken through like internet history,

>> you know, spend too much time there, you just like go blind. That's the curse.

>> They said it would happen to all of us. I don't know. Um, Kenny, uh, Kenny, is there anything you want to get to, um, on this on this matter?

>> Miraculously, you took the words out of my mouth, but when when we were talking earlier about all the different internet ethnography work you've done, Katherine, I was thinking like this is the internet's heroditus, you know, like all we know about the internet about pre about that time of history was because this one Greek dude decided to write it all down. And I think in general part of the problem why I think it doesn't get the the treated with the seriousness it it deserves is so so much of our like modern life we just think we just take for granted. We like how that's not serious. But then like 100 200 years from now like half of most of it just gets forgotten. like how much of like Victorian life did day-to-day people just take for granted and like didn't write down

>> and I'll never know about it and um on the one hand a lot of this internet stuff is like written down but it's like all just dispersed

>> and it's really important to synthesize it. So

>> I think that you know there's there's many many different um avenues to archiving internet history and internet culture and there are many uh people who are doing great work um you know like we're talking about this there's the internet archive right but I do I do think that um you know you're right we don't take it seriously and we even though there are so there's so much time that's poured into it um we might have like a dark ages it might get lost Still,

>> I mean, so many things are only exist like in the wayback machine.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, I think if the wayback machine were to be destroyed, we would lose like an almost incalculable amount of cultural data.

>> There's also something to be said for like, you know, primary sources. Yes, definitely want to preserve them, but it's also, I think, important to preserve what people at the time, contemporaries thought about what was happening. You know, like a lot of when they study the Civil War in American history, which came to mind for absolutely no reason whatsoever, but like when you study the Civil War, a lot of it is like, well, what were pe what did people in the North and South like actually think about current events? It's not just like what happened when and what battle where and you know, what legislative act. It was like, well, what did regular people think? What were they discussing?

>> Yeah. I mean, that's why I do so I do like um ethnographic interviews and that's that's part of why like um you know, it's hard to leave your filter bubble, but also like um you know, you read a forum thread or something and it's it's out of context. Like you really do need people's memories and you need to create like a patchwork quilt of many many different people's memories. Um, you know, there's I feel like there's a very like zero sumum attitude towards content. Like I hate to even call it that but you know it is what it is and internet history is the sort of thing that like you really there can't be one internet history or internet culture person it needs to be many many people needs to be everyone in a sense for the reason you're saying Kenny

There I want to ask just because you talk about this um sort of being heterodox not being able to be pinned down by a political tribe and in a way this is a very luxurious um uh way to live. It's almost, you know, you either have to be like a homeless guy or independently wealthy or just like really brave to to be willing to be publicly heterodox. And um

>> I don't know. I think watching cancellations through all my formative years, these cancellations, it's like there's really two ways they get you, right? like either they either get you fired or they break up your family, estrange you from your loved ones. Um, do do you think that I I I don't know. I get the sense that some of your bravery comes from the fact that you feel somewhat secure both in your family life and in your career. Do you think that you're less cancelellable maybe than the average American in that way?

>> Um, I mean like I I have a lot of fear about pissing people off. I mean I actually am a weird I'm like an inversion of this almost because it's like I'm so scared of pissing anyone off that I've put I've put myself in this weird kind of center, you know, where it's like I I've f I fence sat so long that I'm kind of I kind of fit into neither side.

>> So I don't know if it's like bra I think it's actually like the opposite of bravery. Like I'm just like I just don't consider people's feelings like to a fault. Um so uh but I mean like would would my family abandon me if like someone brigaded me or something? Um no they wouldn't. Um

>> that's good.

>> Yeah. And I hope you know hopefully I could uh I remain I remain employed as well but uh who knows I've been I've been very scared of that for a very long time. Um because it's it's a it's humiliating, right? Like I feel I feel a lot of compassion for you know people this has happened to on any side of the aisle um just on principle. It's like so hor to like have all lose all your friends like that. That's my nightmare.

>> Much less get shot in the neck which is maybe the ultimate form of cancellation

>> right. I mean

>> so let's hope that doesn't happen either to any of us.

>> If you lost your friends over a tweet then you know they weren't your friends.

>> Well

>> yeah I guess so. Yeah, but I try to put I try to look at it from the perspective of like if they genuinely believe that you're doing something evil like it's rational within their own world. I you know it sucks. I I think a lot of these people

>> No, that's what they call actual empathy beyond sympathy.

>> I can't imagine

>> I understand why you would attack me being you. Yes. I can't imagine a single one of my friends like or I I can't imagine a single one of my friends like tweeting something where I would be like, "Well, we can't be friends anymore." I They might tweet something where I'm like, "Oh, dude, what where did that come from? That's that's weird." Or like not great, but

>> I'd still like go surfing with them, you know? a friend a couple of months ago tweet something that I found like so out of pocket and I'm not going to say who it was or what it was, but um they tweet something so out of pocket and like just offensive to me that I remember like reading it to my mom and being like, should I be friends with this person anymore? And my mom was like, you know, you it's it's okay to forgive people for their faults, but that one's a bridge too far. That's like creepy as hell. And I was like, I agree. It's just too much. I I'm so shocked they even think this. and I kind of avoided them for a while and then like I just forgot about it and now we hang out again. That's sort of my experience.

>> And did you ever have a conversation with this person about the tweet in question?

>> No, I never brought it up. I just like just some time passed and I got over it and they've never expressed a similar sentiment again. I'll never know if they were joking. Um it feels too late to ask and that's it. I think it's safe to say if America had a higher percentage of Katherine D's, the world would be a better place. But, uh, we'll just see.

>> I I do think a lot of our personalities are made by our environment, not not innate. So, hopefully we can foster an environment of kindness for the next generation. Not Gen Alpha is already cooked. I'm sorry. It's over for them. But maybe the children of Gen Z can be a little normal. Jen Beta is already here. Um, my child is

>> I guess what's your son would be Gen Beta, huh?

>> Yeah. And I will I will say I think like um the parents in my cohort have taken a good look around and seen Gen Z and Gen A and have been like, "Oh god, there there's no way." And they're trying to they're trying to clean up the mess.

>> And you're would you call yourself a millennial then? Okay. You and Kenny both. Yeah. I guess I'm like on the older side of Gen Z. And I think that for us, Gen Z, having been raised basically unsupervised on the internet, pretty much everyone I talked to in their late 20s is like, "Yeah, we're going to be very um restrictive."

>> You know, or at least keep an eye on what our kids are doing online.

>> This moment kind of reminds me of in terms of like childbearing and the approach to like screen time and internet is like back in the day, they just put lead and gasoline and they're like, "What's the problem?" And it like you know I mean basically like especially in urban areas where air quality was worse like crime got became endemic because it's diff something about like developing children's brains exposed to lead it leads to poor impulse control and sort of general delinquent behavior.

>> Yeah.

>> It took lead out and you know urban centers not perfect but they're a lot safer and nicer than they were back when lead was like rampant. And I feel like we're finally waking up to the fact like, hm, maybe unrestricted screen time and internet time for developing minds is really just not the way to go about it.

>> And you can steal man internet use for children if you want to, Katherine. I I want to hear it if you think.

>> Nope. Um, you know, I used to be sort of like about it, but then, you know, then I was a blocked and reported and Katie Herzog was like, "So, like, are you gonna give your children um, you know, restricted access to the internet?" And the answer is no. Like, they uh, it like especially like my son, like I'm doing like forest school and stuff like I like who am I?

>> Forest school.

>> Yeah. Like I you know, I take him out to the woods. It's It's like you one of these hippie like uh

>> Do they go into the woods?

>> Yeah,

>> that's We don't have Forest here. It would have to be like desert school,

>> right? Right now it's just like mommy and me. It's not He's too young for like real school. But it's I you know I'm thinking like I'm raising him the most like woo woo hippie way. So like what the [ __ ] am I Todd defending the iPad? No,

>> I if I'm not going to do it with my own family, I'm not going to pretend. Look at all these books. I want them to see books.

>> Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, like those chat GPT is a great resource to learn and I I would want I don't have a kid, but if I had a kid, I would want them to learn how to use computers and take advantage of the internet and how to be a person on the internet, but you also like I I you know, I want to protect them from the brain rot at least for as long as I can.

>> Well, there's there's ways I think there's

>> Go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say I think there's ways to introduce technology that's productive. Um, you know, like a lot of pe like they really simple, but like a lot of Gen Z and Gen Aaron don't know how to type, right? They don't know how a computer works,

>> which is absurd because they also can't write by hand.

>> So that means the only way they can write is with their thumbs. No, my my my fiance is a tutor and not just she she doesn't just get middle and high schoolers who can't really write neatly. Some of them their hand muscles are literally so atrophied that if they try to handwrite at length I mean their their hand just starts shaking. They can't do it. They haven't built the muscles in their fingers to write.

>> That's upset. That's really upsetting.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow. I never thought that like penmanship would be like our

>> So they have to build it up over weeks. Like it's like almost like occupational therapy to be able to write.

>> Wow.

>> Kyra, it's like our generation is to penmanship the way our grandparents were to like manual labor. They're like, "What do you mean?"

>> Some of the last ones, huh? Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I was like, "I just didn't grow up like working in the field like you guys." And I just It hurts me.

>> Yeah.

>> They're just like, "What? What a weak generation is probably what they were thinking." And now

>> Yeah. I mean, my grandma grew up literally picking tobacco in the summer. That's what she did.

>> I wouldn't know how to pick tobacco. I

>> Yeah, I may be severely underestimating the um craftiness of my children, but I currently have some plan to basically have a a non-networked PC for them in their room so they can still get some of the skills um and basically just have a set of software that is picked, you know, whatever. Hey, if they're crashing,

>> we'll see how long until they go buy like a USB Wi-Fi stick and plug it in there secretly.

>> Um, yeah, sorry. You were saying, Catherine,

>> not I mean, I I agree with you.

>> Well, we'll see. It's It's weird how um you talk to a couple Americans at a time and it's so polite and pleasant, but then you start talking to a couple million Americans at a time and it's just seems really, really awful. So somewhere between a couple and a million like the scale breaks down.

>> We lack the social mores to be civil at scale.

>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what we do about that. Um civil war, soft civil war, yay nay. What do you think? Is it coming?

>> Um I mean I sure hope not.

>> I live in Chicago, so I sure hope not.

>> Oh yeah. Talk about purple. I mean you're kind of in the thick of it there, huh? Yeah, it feels like um California wouldn't be a good place to be if there was a civil war either.

>> No, we don't. We get a lot of water. We get all our water like from Colorado. We don't really desalinate. We would probably need like other countries to send us a bunch of stuff so we wouldn't all

>> starve. So, no, not not great here either. Yeah.

>> Um but we'll see. I I don't think for the record I think at worst we might get like kind of low-level Weather Undergroundesque nonsense, but I think people are a little too materially comfortable to want to really go to war. It's just

>> some people really aren't, you know, I I think part of the problem is some people live very hard like a lot of people live very hard lives

>> um and feel like they have nothing to lose. I mean, that's sort of that's not a good society to have. Like I I like personally know a lot of people where it's like their whole existence is working some deadend job where they can just barely, you know, pay for their lives and like the only thing that really gives them any kind of joy is like uh you know getting a beer with their friends and like but that's it. There's like there's nothing they they don't think they'll ever get married. They don't think they'll ever have a life outside of their work. It's just and I think that's just very common. I mean,

>> oh wait, this is worth talking about even though

>> we're all too old to really address this, but so I'm 28.

>> Kenny, you're I can't remember.

>> 37.

>> 37. No,

>> I'm right. I'm And I'm 33. So,

>> okay. So, so we're all we're all hanging out in this sort of lower millennial range, but I talk to people I'd say under 26, so born 99 and later.

>> Okay. And they talk with such envy of people our age about relationships. They go, "Oh, you guys are so lucky you got to date before dating became horrible." They use the phrase last chopper out of nom. Uh that's like the phrase they use.

>> Um do you do you see this with young people online? This sort of despondency over modern dating.

>> Um not with all of them, but with some of them. Um, and I almost

>> Do you think it's overblown or

>> I don't know. I don't want to say it's overblown, you know, like it easy for me to say in my 30s and you know,

>> sure,

>> I've been I've been in the same relationship for like six years or something like, you know what I mean? Like

>> it's it seems like a [ __ ] thing to say. So, I don't know. I I I um I I will say that like

>> we should get a young person on. We can ask them this question.

>> You should. I I mean I I have friends who are my age and older who are dating and seem to be doing fine, but is that because they're dating people their own age and older?

>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

>> I wonder if it's like geographic too. Like

>> I think it's definitely geographic.

>> I think like the big cities is probably people feel it feels like people more alienated in big cities than if you go to more like midsize towns. I think like probably the best places to date are like second tier cities. I don't want to say like Chicago is a good place to date, but I bet it's like like as a like a average looking woman, it's probably more comfortable to date in Chicago than New York or LA.

>> This is bait. I'm not going to take it.

>> No, I'm just, you know, just any any sort of hypothetical woman

>> or or Denver or Austin, right? Like I pro it's probably like yeah I mean it should I think that's just that's that's one of my I've been saying that since day one.

>> I wonder too the like it does seem I mean statistically it sounds like people are you know going on fewer dates like more people are single etc. So so you know if you believe the statistics then the trend is real. I wonder if it's somewhat a our subjective experience of the trend, the cultural trend is amplified by the fact that people that are perennially online are probably even less likely to be dating. And so they're the people's voices we hear the most, whereas the people who are less online are more likely to be in happy relationships. And you hear them talk about it less. It's probably true. I I guess I would say I don't know. I'm not like a We talked to Lyman Stone who's like a big birth rates guy. I don't know if I'd call myself like a birth rates guy. Probably not. But I do think that there are good things that come out of people being in relationships. I think they make them happy. I think men and women, as we can see, are politically bifurcating. And I think having to compromise and cooperate and build a life with some of the opposite sex, one humanizes the opposite sex to you and two sort of makes you moderate a little bit which is probably good for the nation. Um and like building a life that you care about also gives you something to live for which gives you like stake in not burning the country down, you know?

>> Yeah. So, like for all those reasons, I I really do hope these Gen Z's do do find families or or something.

>> You you know, you are Gen Z, right? Like,

>> yeah, I'm the first year. Yes. So, we joke

>> because I'm I'm 97, my fiance's 96, so we joke that that I'm It's a Gen Z millennial uh uh pairing. Um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I fully do claim Gen Z. Um,

>> you should.

>> I do. Yes. Um, someone said, uh, someone who came over the other day, she she's my age. She said she claims whichever one, uh, gets her more clout in a given situation, a millennial or Gen Z. I think I do the same thing. It's just always Gen Z. So, so I don't know. But I We do. We do. We like our millennials, folks. We do. Man, with this has been a good hour and a half. I want to ask you, Katherine, because we've I've been remissed to get into this. What are the big projects you are working on? I mean, you do so much. You have a call-in show. You write for all these publications. Um, obviously, the best place to follow Katherine D is to subscribe to Default Blog, but um, like how does someone get the Katherine D experience? Like what what are you doing?

Yeah, I Okay, so definitely subscribe to my blog, default.blog. Um, you're right. I I I do a bunch of stuff. I have a bunch of different columns all over the place. Um, I have a Coast to Coast AM style Colin show and the the conceit of the show is you call in with your phone and the theme is something that could be interpreted um in a paranormal way or um about internet culture. So, we get calls that are both about paranormal stuff and internet stuff.

>> Is this like kind of thing?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Hell yeah. I missed that.

>> Um Yeah. And I mean that's that's uh that's it. I'm I'm just working on the stuff I'm always working on. You said a few weeks ago you said that uh my fiction work was giving you the urge to try and write an outlet novel.

>> Is there anything cooking there? Maybe early ideas. I have some fiction on my blog, but I just like I don't you know what it is like I like to

like fully submerge into like the fictional world that I'm building and like I haven't had the time to like you know shield myself from the like the real world and like detach and get into a fictional world.

Sure. It's probably hard when you're a mother to a young child as well to.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always think about like Virginia Wolf talking about just like how the nature of womanhood is like so against deep artistic work because you're always getting pulled away to do random [ __ ] Um.

Yeah. No, that's that's true. Um I will say it doesn't necessarily impede uh impede my lifestyle, but it does it does make it different.

Didn't stop JK rolling, you know.

That's true. Yeah.

That's true. It's only after she stopped being a mom that things got kind of I don't know went off the rails.

She had too much too much time on her hands.

That's like one of the thing her sort of like becoming this like culture warrior. It's it's not so much like her stated beliefs that are surreal to me. But like that she stopped being known as like the Harry Potter lady and is now just known as a turf. It just like it feels like we're in some kind of strange video game or a show that jumped the shark or something. It's like how did how did you go off the you know what I mean? Like.

Yeah I I literally saw some like center right guy reply to her and say like Joanne you're right but could you post about something else and that made me laugh when I saw that. Um yeah I I do feel a little bad for her. I mean I guess to steal men you just say she found something she believes in and she's fighting for it. I don't know. It just it seems like it creates a lot of misery for her as well as for the people fighting her. I mean, I think what's surreal to me is just like, you know, like Stephen King tweets like, you know, um, Trump derangement syndrome [ __ ] like like all of these people like like I don't I didn't need to know this side of you. I just like you needed to just be like a name to me and I didn't know what your face looked like and I just knew you mediated by Barnes & Nobles.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like that's that's what I think is like weird to me. This sort of like uh dissolution of of boundaries. I started to feel a little dirty and I I realized that I just don't have the the politics commentator in me. I wrote a piece about basically everybody on my Instagram stories uh saying they were happy that that Charlie Kirk got shot and how much that creeped me out. And then immediately um the uh Trump administration started talking about like how like saying anything bad about Republicans is hate speech and that they're going to imprison you for that. And there was just such a whiplash in like 48 hours that I wrote I wrote like my like first piece and then I wrote like my second piece which was this sort of like generic like TDS thing. And after I wrote it again I just felt dirty. I was like.

The world doesn't need another anti-Trump piece. This just I feel like I'm not making the world better. I'm just sullying myself. I don't know. It's it's a difficult relationship to manage.

It it is. Um, and it it is so scary because like any direction you choose is going to piss people off and some some people just want to grill metaphorically.

Yeah. And and it's like they're like, "Hey man, you're just a sci-fi author. Please just be my sci-fi author and don't be all TDS." And it's like, "Yeah, whatever." Mhm.

I think that when I look at Trump and I look at the his what made him successful as a politician um is he has a very and and most of what explains a lot of his behavior and what he does is he seems like he has a very similar like content algorithm as say like the Kardashians where it's like say or do whatever is going to maximize the amount of attention people are paying to me in over the next new like 24, 48 hour, 7day news cycle and maximize the amount of eyeballs that are and brain like waves that are allocated towards thinking about me.

I don't care if it's good thoughts, negative thoughts or in between as long as they're thinking about me.

I mean, he is the first Twitter president in the way that like JFK was a TV president, FDR was a radio president. I mean, we get presidents who are able to maximize for whatever the medium of the day is.

Exactly. And if if you really want to be anti-Trump, the best way to take away to to be do that is just to like not talk about him.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think you're right.

Yes.

Um I think that we're getting close to time here. We've been going a good while and that's just because there's so much to get into. Is were there any last things, Kenny, that you wanted to touch on with Katherine before we let her go?

Okay. Well, Katherine, I know you're a very busy woman, both professionally and personally, so thank you for taking the time. I'm really glad we could get you on. Needless to say, I'm a big fan. And um part of the cool thing about doing this show is that you get an excuse to uh you know, have a have a conversation with someone you admire professionally in a way that might feel like a little bit of an imposition if it was just, you know, a lunch or a Zoom. So, at least with the pretense of doing it for an audience, um it's very indulgent for for me and I I I really do appreciate you taking the time. I hope the audience got something out of it as well.

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for being being flexible about my reschedules.

Oh, yeah. No, I get it. I've done I've been in similar situations and I'm sure we've got our own baby draw ahead in a couple years. So, just paying it paying it forward or paying it whichever direction. I don't know. Uh, all right. Well, um, thank you very much everybody for listening. Kenny, thanks for coming along. I know this was maybe a little brain rotted uh for you. Kenny is like very good at logging off and doing yoga and surfing and being offline. So.

I love uh internet culture. Thank you for being patient with me and walking me through Gamergate, etc. it uh it uh yeah and I'm sure there's a lot more to read. Maybe one day we'll have like nice hardbound compendia of all of this information, but for now it's sort of an oral tradition. So here we are participating in the oral tradition. Uh if you would like to sponsor the Futurist Letters show, as you know, this is where your sponsor message will go. Go to futuristletters.com, click on advertise, uh you can support us. You can also become a paying subscriber, which I highly recommend because then you can listen to our after show where uh Kenny and I or whoever my co-host is get into how the episode went. So stick around and that is the next episode that you will see on your feed. Until then everybody have a wonderful day. It was lovely to have you as an audience. Katherine, thank you for coming on.

Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure and we will see you later.