Transcription
Judaism is not a religion. I know a lot of us have been constantly saying that, but all the claims about the Holy Land and the temple, it's all religious. It's more historical. It's where we came from. How can someone become an ethnic? People convert to >> Well, there are Native American nations that have a way for one to actually become Native American. It's actually almost identical to converting to Judaism. It's up to the indigenous population to choose how one becomes a member of their society. And I wouldn't see any of you guys going to Native Americans and telling them you don't have an ability to join your nation. It's only when it comes to the Jewish people that we're being challenged.
I'm here with Dr. Ahmed and Rudy Rochman. You both were in Surrounded. You haven't seen the episode yet, so you both are kind of coming into this a little bit blind, but thank you both for being in the original video and welcome to the follow-up podcast. Thank you for having us. I really want to see if we play back certain moments from the episode if we can find even the smallest kernels of agreement. This is a huge conflict, a huge historic, you know, issue. It's very complex. It It ranges over a very long time period. But if we kind of zoom in to the most human level, maybe there are just these these small semantic tweaks, maybe there are just these acknowledgements of each other's humanity that can, you know, open up space for there to be agreement and kind of possibilities of visualizing a future. So that I know it's it's a hope and, you know, there's a reasons to believe that that's not possible, but that's what I want to try and do. So I'm going to pull up the first clip and then I'll invite you both to jump in from there.
Doctor, you did something that's very important that I think that we can transcend the conversation is by understanding what we're saying rather than terms. The reason why I'm saying that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism is that because I'm giving a very specific definition of Zionism, which is the official definition, and the definition that historically was and currently is that the Jewish people come >> not what we mean. >> Exactly. This is why we need to have a conversation of what do you truly mean? When I say I'm a Zionist, I'm not talking about suffering of Palestinians. I want Palestinians to be able to return. I want Palestinians >> But your actions are letting our children die. You are blaming Palestinians for what's happening to us. >> not blaming Palestinians for what's happening to >> said that. I actually blamed the US government for their foreign aid. I blamed the British for what they did into our country, and I would like to see us being able to transcend, but what you are doing is so important because everyone who's listening can realize we need to understand what we're actually saying. If you're condemning the suffering of Palestinians, that is not being anti-Zionist. And for if you're miscommunicating that and Israelis are hearing you saying I'm an anti-Zionist, let's ask you what you truly mean by that.
Dr. Ahmed, what do you mean when you say anti-Zionism? For Palestinians, we been suffering for the past 75 years and even more than that since the establishment of this ideological Zionism. And um even even if we take the definition that Rudy's taking is that this means the right of Jewish people to live in the land of Palestine. On what expense is the question? On what expense are they allowed to come from Europe and other parts of the world and settle in Palestine? Uh history showed us that was a very very bloody process and a lot of people were killed. And until now, to support the ideology of Zionism, for us Palestinians and for all those who are supporting the Palestinian cause anti-Zionism means anti-ethnic cleansing, anti-genocide, anti-stealing homes, confiscating lands, which is happening as we are talking right now. As we are speaking right now, this is happening not only in Gaza, in the West Bank as well. So this ideology that's called Zionism for us, it's it's a bloody ideology that killed so many people, that massacred so many people. It used all kinds of tactics. It used terrorism. It used political blackmailing just for the sake of of of this goal that might sound nice and and benign, but it is it is coming on a very very high price, on the expense of people's lives and properties.
Okay, Rudy, let's let's pull you in and and hear your response to that and I'll I'll see if if I can find any any points to share elaborate on. >> Well, if I were to do the same thing, I would basically make the argument that because there has been terrorism from the Palestinian side and a lot of negative things that have come from the Palestinian population, which doesn't represent all, then that means that the very Palestinian identity and the movement of the Palestinian people means it's associated to something negative. That's what Ahmed just did. And what I'm saying is that the movement of Zionism was the movement to seek to have self-determination for the Jewish people on their ancestral homeland called Israel/Judea. Historically, it was Israel/Judea before it was renamed to Palestine. Same way Ahmed is from Bethlehem, the house of bread in Hebrew. This was the name of the territory. These were Hebrew cities, Hebrew towns, Hebrew civilization, and Hebrew name. Now, when someone is saying that they're an anti-Zionist, they're anti the idea of Zionism. And Zionism, if it is the right for the Jewish people to self-determine on their ancestral homeland, then someone that's an anti-Zionist is against that very idea. That being said, I don't think that that's what Ahmed and many people are saying. I do believe that when they're saying they're against the suffering of Palestinians and associating that to anti-Zionism, what they're doing is misdefining anti-Zionism and misdefining Zionism. Now, there were a lot of words that were thrown out. Genocide, which is clearly not happening in the land. Have there been a lot of people dying, innocent people dying on both sides? Absolutely. If we want to go to the specifics of the individuals, we can. If we go into the policies and the criticisms of the different things that were done, we can. But to constantly be throwing these blanket statements, these trigger words to demonize a population is not going to help us get anywhere. When I'm criticizing Palestinians, I'm criticizing Palestinian individuals. I'm criticizing Hamas. I'm not saying all Palestinians. When Ahmed and a lot of people are criticizing Israel, they're not criticizing specific politicians or policies. They're criticizing all of Zionism and the very idea that I have a right to this land and calling it a cute idea, but it has to be associated to something negative because a lot of people suffer from this inability to be able to see the humanity in the other side, and they just connect all of their experiences and suffering to the very identity of the others, which is what keeps us trapped in this conflict.
Let's not confuse Jews and Zionists. For us, we have completely We don't look at them as the same at all. Yeah, what's the distinction? We have no doubt that Jewish people have the right to visit, live in the Holy Land. They have There's no problem. That's been the case. Actually, when the European Jews were fleeing the European persecution and the Holocaust, the Palestinians opened their doors for them, opened their homes for them, and said, "Sure, come over. This is the land that we can live together. You have connection to it because you follow Abraham, you follow Isaac, you follow Moses. You have connection with that. We have no problem with that." Both Christians and Muslims Palestinians. The problem is not with Jews have the right to exist or live or settle in the land of Palestine. The problem is with the ideology that's political ideology, that's even not even religious, secular ideology that used all kinds of tactics until nowadays to kick Palestinians out.
Rudy brought up that you're you're kind of taking on Zionism in this broad way, maybe an overly general way, but he's curious in specific criticisms you have of the government itself. If you could narrow your focus, what are some of those most specific criticisms? >> there is a problem in the Israeli society. There's a very problematic I don't want to call it sickness, but there's a problem in the Israeli society. There are Israelis who are in thousands chanting death to Arabs. There are little young Israeli girls signing on the rockets that are fired to Gaza their names as as a as a gift or as a This is sickening. This is sickening to see people, average people in the Israeli society. And again, we're not talking about Judaism, we're talking about people in the Israeli society. All this hatred that coming out, we believe it's coming out from the Zionist ideology. Now, we don't have to fight over terminology. We don't have to argue over what's the name. All what we care about is what's happening, the real actions that's happening on the ground. So we're talking about religious extremism. Is that another way I could I would not say it's religious extremism, it's political extremism. It's as many people Netanyahu himself is a secular person. He's not religious. There's so many people in the Israeli government who are promoting ethnic cleansing and genocide according to the definition of many of the international organization of what's happening. They are not religious at all. I believe if a if a Jewish person follows the religion properly, they will not be that extreme. They would not be that that hateful. You have so many rabbis, so many uh right-wing or or Orthodox Jews who are against what the Israeli government is doing. So it's not about religion whatsoever. We have to clearly say that. It's not about the Jewish religion at all.
So no one said that all Jews are Zionists and all Zionists are Jews. Jews are descendants of this ancient civilization and this people, and Zionists are believe in the idea that Jews should have a right to self-determine on their ancestral homeland. You could be a Jew and against the idea, and you could be a non-Jew and for that idea. So no one said they're both. Also, European Jews are Jews that had an experience in Europe, not that originate in Europe. And he is right. There were some Palestinians who welcomed Jews, just as there are Jews who welcomed Palestinians, as I am. And no one is trying to deny that. Now, when it comes to there are problems in Israeli society, I mean, I don't know a society without problems, and there are problems also within the Palestinian society, but you won't hear me saying Palestinian identity is the problem, or that the problem is called the Palestinian identity. But every single time that we're having a conversation, instead of pinpointing those specific problems within Israeli society, we're always equating them and attaching them to the name of the Israeli people, the Israeli state, or to Zionism. I mean, there are minorities who chant the death of Jews, and I have videos where I debate those people, expose their voices, call them out for the things the majority of Israeli society would reject those ideas. But yet this minority that is super loud and constantly using the media in Al Jazeera cuz they love to show the Jews that are bad to make this impression to people on the outside that the Jews are all bad. The majority of the Israeli people reject that, and Ahmed knows that because he lived in this land, he grew up in this land, and I'm sure he's met some Israelis that are bad, but many Israelis that are good. And yes, there are some politicians that are promoting ideas of ethnic cleansing. I would say that the transfer ideas of transferring Palestinians out of a certain land is an idea of ethnic cleansing. That's not being done in action, but there are no Israeli politicians that I know of that are promoting the ideas of genocide, that are saying all Palestinians need to be killed, which is what genocide is, the intent killing of a population. And thankfully, that's not happening, and I hope that will never happen on either side.
So, let me let me rewind a little bit. I mean, I I hear good faith coming from both of you. Neither one of you want to paint with a broad brush um by religion and say all people of this religion are um hateful. And you know, there's some disagreement about what Zionism means. I think we we might just have to kind of park that there. But something Rudy that uh I heard from Ahmed was this idea of a sickness. Now, as an American, I can kind of empathize with that because internally we discuss this, you know, like a cultural sickness. We have a very div- divisive culture. So, like I you you will find me being very critical of American culture. Does any of of kind of how what he described going on as kind of a political radicalism? Does that And I know you've kind of acknowledged that, but but does that resonate with you? Can you elaborate on that a little more? It absolutely resonates. Yeah, and this is why it's important to separate it from the term Zionism and from the idea of Zionism because there are many people like me who believe that Jews have a right to self-determine on their ancestral homeland, and are against the violence of Palestinians, and are for the idea of having them return to the land, and seeing them as a fellow native population of this land. So, is there hate? Yes, and I would say that the biggest win Hamas had is not the amount of Jews that they killed, it's the amount of Jews that they turn them to be like Hamas and to be hateful. And that has been growing since October 7th, of course due to trauma, but we need to now focus our energy to be able to change it. Are there Palestinians who completely hate all Jews or hate all Israelis? Yes, we can go to trauma is where that source is from, and this is the symptom. But if we don't cure the source of where this is coming from, we're going to continue this loop of violence. And the way to cure the source is to understand that both of our identities are legitimate, both of the names that we use like Palestinian. A lot of Jews and Israelis try to demonize the name Palestinian. I reject that. Why are we demonizing and rejecting the name Zionist or Israel? We have to be able to understand that the certain names that we're using to describe ourselves are describing our humanity and our right to exist, not the negativity that exists. And we can specifically talk about that negativity and heal where the source is coming from, which is the suffering that exists and the inability to have full access to this land for both of us from the river to the sea. And if we focus on those points to be able to move us forward, we could give our children a better future than the one we inherited.
Um as much as you try to make it as a chicken and egg situation, a vicious cycle that that we don't know who started it, we all know who started it. We all know it all started when the uh the the militias and the European uh Zionists came and massacred so many Palestinians, took their homes, took their villages. We all know that's when it started. Before that, Jews, Muslims, Christians were living peacefully in Palestine. Jews had the ability to go and access all their places of worship, all the holy and sacred spots. There are so many documented stories about Palestinians and Jews babysitting their own children, neighbors living with each other, eating the same food, having the same culture. It all started when few people in Europe decided that let's create this ideology called Zionism, and let's go and establish a national homeland for Jews at any expense. That is the problem. That it's it's it's doesn't matter how they were going to establish it, let's just establish it. If it means we're going to kill people, let's do it. If it means we're going to bomb homes, let's do it. And that's what history proves. It's not I'm not just making stuff up. This is exactly what happened. You you hear it from Israelis. You hear it from from older Israeli soldiers who participated in these massacres. Look it up, you'll find it. It's all over.
I hear what you're saying, but I I'm I want to be cautious about looking towards the past too much because just from my experience as an outsider from this conflict, I I've it's very hard to get to a point of consensus on how to right the wrongs of the past and what the rights and wrongs of the past are. Something that we were kind of focusing on from Rudy was this idea of like what who are the bad actors on his side. And I you know, I think that question kind of came towards you, but instead of looking at the the past, you know, let's let's kind of think about the present. And this actually came up in your guys's debate. So, Dr. Ahmed, I want you to respond, but let's do let's watch um how you guys discuss this in a clip, and then I'll throw it back to you.
See, the difference in this conversation is that there are bad actors on both sides. I'm identifying the individual bad actors on the Israeli side. Identifying the bad actors on the Palestinian side, and saying do not attach these bad actors to all Palestinians. What you're doing is identifying the bad actors here, and saying it's all Israelis and refusing to identify bad actors on I didn't say all, I said majority. They came on the borders of Gaza, and they're cheering the things that you see, death to Arabs, right and left. >> of the population. It's a it's a great minority, and it should be it should be zero. It should be zero. >> is Israel a democratic state? >> Yes. So, why would a minority be able to control the actions of the government? >> We have a parliamentary system government where you have all these different parties, and in order to have power, you need to have over 60 seats out of 120 seats in order to have the majority. >> a minority. That's what I'm saying. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. It's not a minority. >> I'm not going to speak for Netanyahu. There's plenty of criticism that I have of Netanyahu.
Dr. Ahmed, do you feel like there's presence of bad actors coming from your end as well, though? Abs- absolutely. For a doctor myself, I don't just put a band-aid on every disease that I see. I like to look for the root cause of it. I like to look what caused such a some such a bad act from somebody. Uh, you're trying to say let's not talk about history. Rudy's going 3,000 years old story and connecting it to what's happening right now. I would love to exclude history completely out of this discussion. I would love it. And let's sit down, and let's talk about, you know what? These are the human rights of the people. This is this is an apartheid, whether we like it or not, there is an apartheid. There are people who are living on the one side of the wall in a very luxurious lifestyle, abundance of water, all kinds of life [snorts] needs are available for them, and you just step one side on the other side of the wall, and you have completely different world, completely different life circumstances. So, yes, if you want to delete history, let's take it out of the formula. Let's let's not talk about the rights of anyone in that land. Let's talk about what's happening right now. Let's create a a democracy. Let's create equal rights, citizenship for everyone, and let's allow anybody who had a house or had a property, a deed of a property in in the land to come back and and take it and use it. So, we cannot say we don't want to talk about history, while the whole discussion is about 3,000 year old claim.
I hear your your point about the asymmetry of power. Even if we don't think about this in a historical sense, I think we all would agree that that kind of is true right now. Um, Israel's just a much more powerful military presence, uh, new- literally a nuclear power. But uh, the the conversation often goes towards Hamas. Do you consider Hamas a bad actor? So, Hamas is a natural outcome of of of the many years and decades of oppression. Even if you put a group of secular people or religious fanatics or anybody in the shoes of the Palestinian, I mean, what do you expect from a child, a 5-year-old child sitting down in his house at sleeping at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, and a group of soldiers just walk in start start humiliating his father, harassing his mother, and then capturing or in in in in in his brother to to prison, and he doesn't hear about his brother for another 10, 15 years. What do you expect from that kid to do when he becomes an older man? What do you expect from people who who were who lost all their family members simply because uh a letter came 5 minutes before they bombed their homes, and everyone died. So, you have to understand this is a natural outcome, a resistance movement for the oppression and the occupation that was taking place. Do I agree with all the actions and the tactics of of Hamas? Absolutely not. Nobody agrees with anybody. But to say that they are the the only bad actor and they are just evil, they just happen to be. Hamas did not start till 1986. Israeli oppression and aggression started since 1948. So, you have to understand where that's coming from. Trust me, if there is no oppression, if there is no aggression from the Israeli side, we would not have seen a movement like Hamas. We would not have people who are willing to to blow themselves up in a bus because of just simply because they want to do that. So, we have to understand where that come from and where did it start.
You know, Ahmed, I see you as my as my family member, as my cousin. I know Palestinians are rooted to this land and many of them descend from the Jewish people and although they're not Jewish today, they're still descendants of the same people. We come from this land and our futures are tied together. I know that you're a dentist and you're doctor and you're probably good doctor, but you know, I say this with the utmost respect. I think there are a lot of people who still suffer from a reality where there's a good guy and there's a bad guy. And I think you suffer from that, too. And there are many Jews and Israelis who suffer from this as well. This is not the way that we can be able to transcend. If you see all Israelis as bad and all Palestinians as good, then there's no way for us to move forward. There are many different Israelis and many different Palestinians that are bad and there are many that are good and there are many that are that are good on both sides. Now, where did this start? Did this I never said this started from the Palestinians. You will never hear me say that the source of all issues is from the Palestinians. I actually source the British. When the British came, the what they did is they divide and conquered all civilizations. Whether we look at India and Pakistan, we look at Afghanistan, we look at uh Nigeria with the Hausa Fulani, Yoruba and the Ibos and they did the same thing between the Israelis and the Palestinians. What did they do to the Israelis that made us feel like the Palestinians and the Arab world were against us? They pointed into Haj Amin al-Husseini as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a Palestinian who as an individual was very hateful towards the Jews, had met with Hitler several times and wanted Hitler to come and finish off the Jews in the land. They, the British that were against Hitler, appointed Haj Amin al-Husseini as the representation of the Palestinians. So, when we heard the spokesperson say things and say horrible things about Jews, we interpreted that as that was the Palestinian position. Now, what did they do for the Palestinian to experience Zionism and Israel and the Jewish people as European colonialism. They wrote the Balfour Declaration. Now, keep in mind that they wrote the Balfour Declaration before they even had access to the land. They wrote it when the Ottomans were still in control. So, why would they even plan to create something that they didn't even have the land over? Furthermore, when they did have control of the land, the Jews were being killed by the Nazis. Wouldn't be your intention, since you wrote it clearly, to allow the Jews to leave from Europe and to come and build their Jewish state? Yet, every ship of Jews that was fleeing Europe, fleeing Nazi persecution, was sent back to Europe and not allowed. And even after the Holocaust with the white papers, Jews were not allowed to come into this land. So, in reality, the British did not want to allow for the creation of a Jewish state. What they wanted was for the idea of Zionism to be experienced by the Arab world as an extension of European colonialism. And this is where we start with the problem, where I and my population starts to experience your population as the source of our problem and vice versa. Now, you brought up villages that were displaced. Were there many villages that were displaced in 1948? Absolutely, but only in the context of war. If it wasn't a war, then villages weren't displaced. And the only villages that were displaced were villages that were complicit in attacking Jews. Was every single individual there attacking Jews? Absolutely not. Should they all have been out? No, but we need to provide a little bit more of context when things are being said. Now, in terms of asymmetry, it's a fact that Israel has more power, which is why Israel has more of a responsibility to fix the situation. I'm constantly talking about that we need to take the actions to give freedom of speech, to invest in education, in infrastructure and job opportunities and to change the conditions that is causing people to hate Israel. And then once those conditions are shifted, we can start having conversations of integration and the right of return and for us to be able to live here together. Now, when Ahmed was asked if Hamas is a bad actor, he said yes very quickly and then focused almost 99% of the time on justifying Hamas. When I was asked about extremist Arabs or sorry, when I was asked about extremist Israelis, I spent the majority of the time condemning them, saying why they're bad and a minority of the time giving the context. And the context is important because people aren't born just hateful. Palestinians aren't born just hating Jews for no reason. There is a context, but there is also a manipulation of the media of the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Liberation Organization and of Hamas today and of this anti-normalization policy that we can't even communicate with one another that is causing the Palestinian population to come to conclusions that all Israelis are bad. And although that might not be the source where this is all starting from, it is still a problem that has to be addressed the same way that the hate that exists on the Israeli side has to be addressed. But you know what? When an Israeli like me says that Palestinians are my family and we should live together, nothing happens to me. When a Palestinian says something that they should live with Israelis, all of a sudden they disappear whether in the West Bank or Judea and Samaria and in Gaza. And when I've made videos with Palestinians, I have to blur their faces and change their voices. Now, one last thing, Ahmed said that there were many stories of Jews living with Palestinians, they were living good in the past and my intention of this conversation and all of the work that I do is to recreate that, to create a future where we could actually be able to live together and not see each other as our enemies, but as the family that we are right in front of one another.
I'm also in agreement that the British policies over the early 19th century caused so much divisions around the world and caused so much problems. Even when they left the United States, they left behind them the seeds of the Civil War. So, yes, I agree that whatever they left, they created a problem. But we cannot keep blaming that on the British. The British are not the ones who put the guns in the hands of the Israeli soldiers in Deir Yassin. The British are not the ones who put all the young men and young boys, even though had nothing to do with any war and executed them in front of their mothers and daughters and their sisters and let the women run to the other village to run make everyone run away. The British did not kill 70,000. Finally, Israel agrees that the 70,000 people were killed in Gaza. So, we cannot keep blaming them on the actions right now. I cannot blame the British of for for any Palestinians actions right now. I can say their policies were bad back the early early 19th century, but right now we're adults. We're grown-ups. We have we have we have to take responsibility of our actions. You cannot expect from a Palestinian to have exactly the same because of that asymmetry that we're talking about. You cannot expect that as a Palestinian, I have to act exactly like as an Israeli. I cannot do that. Israel is the bully. You cannot expect a kid in the in the school who's been beaten up by by all these bullies and expect them, hey, you have to act in the same manner. No, you go to the one with a stick. You go with the one with the weapons. You don't go with the one to the one with the with the aircrafts and bombs and telling them, hey, you should stop. You should not do this. Let's sit down and talk. That's exactly how civilized nations work and and talk.
What about what Rudy said though about you know, Rudy made the point that there are Palestinians who can't you know, out of fear for their lives feel like they can't say that they should live peacefully with the Jews. >> not true. There's so many Palestinians are saying they want to live peacefully. Even the president of the Palestinian Authority is saying that. The government in Ramallah is saying that. What the people who actually might lose their their lives are the traitors, the one who are helping the Israeli army to assassinate and kill Palestinian people. These are the people who are losing their lives. Now, in the West, it's completely the opposite. If the if a Jewish person or an Israeli person stands up for the rights of the Palestinians, they get canceled. They don't get invited to to anything. They lose financially. They lose jobs. But find me a Palestinian who came to the states or came to the West and start talking bad about Palestine and start supporting Israel. Look how supportive they get. They get all the talk shows. They get all the invitations to all these synagogues and these churches. There's several examples of those Palestinians who come and they were very supported by the many of the Westerners because they speak against Palestine. On the other hand, Israelis or Jews who speak against atrocities of the Israeli government, they already they they don't get the same treatment. They lose big time.
Dr. Ahmed, I I hear what you're saying. Something as an outsider, somebody who consumes a lot of Western media, I I think it would be very difficult for the Palestinian cause to gain as broad of a support as I think is necessary for the kind of change that I think we all are hoping for without a more um surgical criticism of Hamas. Your your characterization of the Palestinian people as kind of the bullied uh people, I think that resonates, but it also does kind of generalize. And I hear so much focus on Hamas and Hamas using the Palestinians as human shields. And I'm sure we can go into the validity or the um invalidity of those claims, but I guess my larger point is it seems hard from my perspective to brush past Hamas and and sort of what they represent as kind of an elected governing body um and a and a kind of a political movement in their own way. It that that just seems like something that I I I don't see um the world uh moving past. Do you do you does that resonate with you? Um I don't agree because at some point Nelson Mandela was called the biggest terrorist in South Africa and he was banned from every Western outlet. Later on, he was celebrated and he was asked to talk to. Uh, Taliban was also brushed as the most terrorist group in Afghanistan and now the United States is sitting down with them and having negotiations with them. These political conflicts, they always change. Um, as much as as it's important for Palestinians to gain uh, sympathy on the support of the Western media, uh, as much as Palestinians lost hope in that and they see, you know what? Even when people speak against Palestine, the freedom of speech was completely out of the window in America. Professors, students lost their jobs and lost their education simply because they spoke didn't do anything else but spoke against a genocide. So, there is not much hope from Palestinians and Palestinian supporters in Western media to to be the savior of the Palestinians, unfortunately. Uh, me as an American Palestinian, I never I never lose that hope. I'll try my best to explain and express and talk about it. Uh, but the problem is that they always put this uh, hanger. Do you condemn Hamas? Do you Do you condemn what Hamas is doing? As if it's the gate to any discussion. I refuse to accept that narrative. I refuse to accept that I have to have a permission and and talk about and give a judgment about a group simply so you can hear me. I think we'll keep trying if that's if we keep if we keep trying to express our story and our narrative without any conditions and contingencies, we'll keep we'll keep doing it. Hm.
Rudy, let's before we move on to the next clip, I know you want to get in here one more time. Yeah, so I'm going to try to go again cuz there are many things discussed. I only sourced the British to source where the hate started, not what's still affecting us and we've been victims till this day of what started then but was continuing and I would say that there are countries like America who are profiting from war and investing a lot of weapons to make sure war continues. Iran and Qatar that are also profiting from this conflict and those would be modern countries that are profiting from our division. You mentioned Deir Yassin wasn't in war, Deir Yassin was in 1948. And I'm sorry for all my Palestinian cousins who suffered, not just in Deir Yassin but in other places and I hope that we can find resolution. But again, all these conflicts, whether it's Gazans dying, this is all during war and conflict, not just random situations of people attacking one another. In terms of Abu Mazen wanting to support living in peace with the with the Jewish people, I mean, he supports families of Palestinian terrorists and pays them monthly salaries for having killed Jews. So, I don't believe that he wants to do that. Now, you said that Palestinians can openly speak about wanting to live with Israelis. I mean, I have many Palestinian friends who were normalizing and were hiding their identity but somehow their identity was found out and they disappeared for weeks and after disappearing they told me that they were caught by the Palestinian Authority or tortured. This happened to also in Gaza and by Hamas for even doing a Zoom call with Israelis. So, Palestinians absolutely do not have freedom of speech and don't have the rights. Now, calling Israelis the bully is again putting this good guy, bad guy narrative and we're not going to be able to get out of that if we're always seeing all Palestinians as bad or all Israelis as bad. Again, let's specify which Israeli is bad and let's specify which Palestinian is bad. But that doesn't mean that's all. Now, you said that if an Israeli speaks about Palestinian rights and Palestinian identity and speaks on behalf of the Palestinians and cares about them that they would get canceled. Well, I'm saying it right now and I say it all the time and I don't get canceled. I'm actually seen as one of the leading voices of young Jewish activists online and no one is canceling me for speaking about Palestinians, so that's not true. Last thing about asymmetry, you know, just because one has the power doesn't mean that they're bad. You know, when King David was young, he was weak against Goliath but eventually he becomes a powerful king and he's the same King David. So, just because Israel today has power doesn't mean that we're bad. But with that power comes the responsibility to fix the situation. If Palestinians were in power, I'd expect them to be the leader of the change. We are currently in power and we have to change the conditions. That is something I'm putting on Israel's responsibility to do in order for us to be able to transcend.
Okay. We agree on that point. Oh, wonderful. Um, so we're we're just a little bit past halfway. I want to I my opinion is not terribly important. I'm not a very educated person on this issue but I I do have I think a good sense of of like an outsider's perspective and so yeah, Dr. Ahmed, I think if I were to put a pin in anything, it it really is how can the Palestinian cause be self-critical and also advocate for itself? That to me feels like an important question in winning the hearts and minds of broader public as as you responded to. But that's sort of like the pin of kind of what I feel like is a really important question when we look at the Palestinian side. I want to show you guys a clip because in your debate, Rudy, you kind of brought up this idea of welcoming the Palestinians into Israel and kind of what if we were to visualize what a one-state society might look like. And so, we're going to hear what you said and then kind of discuss it.
Do you believe that there should be one civilization? The reason I don't use one state is cuz the current political system that we have with the Knesset is completely corrupt and horrible and we have to create something new that is a republic that people have a right to depend but something new. Do you believe in one civilization for both of our people? >> equal rights, if it's fair, if it's just, yes. >> So, let's talk about If there's no apartheid, Well, if if Palestinians and Jews agreed to have a one-state solution, it will be it won't be a Jewish state. >> be a Jewish state. So, that's you're asking what I'm looking at. My My vision for it it cannot be a Jewish state. Why not? What is a Jewish state that's a problem for you? Because it's not a democratic state if it's it's a it's But it could be both. It could be both, right? What do you mean? No. What Why would it not be a democratic state? have to be secular. Oh, sure, but you could have also a cultural country. >> A Jewish state A A Chinese state, a Japanese state is going to be Japanese by its culture. >> But a Jewish state will have rights for Jewish people more than the rights of others. That's what happened That's what happened to Palestinians who live under the Israeli rule No, those who are living in Israel, they don't have to serve in in the army, they don't have to do a lot of You don't Have you talked to them? Have you spoken to any of those people? >> Palestinians who live as Israeli citizens who don't have to serve in the army, They are second or third class citizens. >> They're not second or third class. They are equal citizens.
First off, I want to commend you, Dr. Ahmed, for for entertaining that thought experiment cuz I do think that's a big concession. What if we were to entertain this idea of a one-state solution, what could it look like? I think that that's a generous participation because that that's something that you don't hear often. But what is your pushback? I want you to elaborate a little bit on the pushback that you were trying to articulate in that clip and then Rudy, you can respond to to what he says. So, I I believe that >> [clears throat] >> I me and many Palestinians believe that there is a possibility of having a one-state solution, a democratic state that's not religious, not Islamic, not Christian, not Jewish, uh, where everybody, regardless of their faith, they have equal rights, where everybody, regardless of their faith, they have access to their holy sites, where everybody can practice their faith and their their identity freely without having to feel that they're subjugated and they have to be second class citizens. That's that's an idea that many many [clears throat] many Palestinians have no problem with it. The problem is that we feel that uh, Israelis are not genuinely desiring this. They want to always keep the Palestinians as the working class, the labor class, um, the the subjects who are forced to stand in lines for hours and hours on checkpoints, um, who are simply do not have the same right as the Jewish citizens. So, that is the problem that we're having in in trying to believe the that that people like Rudy and and I and I'm honestly Rudy's saying good things and I hope and I pray they are genuine. The problem is that it's hard to believe. It's hard to believe that there are enough Israelis who are willing to accept this.
Well, I mean, I would I would say I I would vouch for Rudy in that I I sense that he's being very genuine but you know, it's it's this is difficult to to to thread the needle on both ends. But Rudy, when when you hear Dr. Ahmed's concerns about the Palestinians having a second class status in this future we're imagining, how what do you think? Well, first of all, I use one civilization instead of one state because I think already the political framework that we have in Israel proper today is something that doesn't work and saying one state kind of implies the extension of that and I think we need to build something that is a republic that doesn't have equal rights for each person, that we do have representation in our governments but something that is built completely different and not a parliamentary system that doesn't work. I would say one major issue in conversations like this is we always are seeing Judaism as a religion and Judaism is not a religion. A religion is a belief system in a god, deity, book, or prophet. So, if one does not believe in the god, deity, book, or prophet, let's say a Christian that rejects Jesus, is not a Christian. A Muslim that rejects Muhammad is not a Muslim. A Buddhist that rejects Buddha and their philosophies is not a Buddhist. And a Jew that rejects Hashem and Torah is still a Jew. So, we're not a wandering ideology that one is a part of it if you believe in it or not. We are the descendant of an ancient civilization called Judea, and Judaism is the portable suitcase of that civilization. We are people, we are family, we are a nation, we are a civilization, and not a religion. So, when I'm saying a Jewish state, it is to recreate that civilization. But, in that civilization, you also had many non-Jews who had equal rights under King David, under Malachi Ood, like many people in Islamic studies learn that King David had a civilization which gave equal rights to everyone. Now, Israeli Arabs are not second-class citizens. They're equal citizens like everyone else. And Palestinians in the West Bank are not second-class citizens because they're not citizens, and they don't have a rights into Israel. That's something that's wrong. But, I also don't have rights into the Palestinian Authority areas and into the Gaza areas. So, it's not one person has more rights than the other. It's limitation of movement and inequality that exists on both sides. Now, in order to be able to find a solution, we have to understand the non-negotiables for both sides. Now, it's important for the Israeli audience and people who are pro-Israel and Zionist to hear, Palestinians will not let go of the right of return and freedom from the river to the sea. This is something that is non-negotiable on their end, and we have to learn it and understand it. And you know why I respect it? Cuz I believe the same thing. I believe that I will never let go of the idea I mean, for 2,000 years we didn't let go of this idea that we should have the right of return, and I understand where it's coming from the Palestinians cuz we are family, and it's coming from the same place. Now, the non-negotiables for the Israeli side is full economic, political, and military control over the Israel. Israel is the capital, and the third
The temple is built. Those are non-negotiables on both sides. Now, you're going to ask yourself, how are we going to go from where we are today, point A, to point G? Well, there's B, C, D, E, F to get to G. And in order to be able to get there, we have to understand that first of all, we have to address with the demographic issue and the cultural issue.
The demographic issue can be addressed if we understand that today 16 million Jews around the world are the descendants of two and a half tribes. There's nine and a half tribes of Israel that have yet to be reunited and returned to the Jewish people. Today, their population is 500 million. 20% still identifies as right. Half of them want to make aliyah. We're talking about 20 to 50 million people that would be returning to line of Israel. Once that population returns, the idea of Palestinians returning does not threat Jewish demographics and does not remove the fact that it's a Jewish state.
The next thing for culture, if we as Jews want to be able to see Palestinian culture change, we have to change the conditions of Palestinians living. We have to be much harsher against terrorism, or completely remove Hamas, completely remove Hezbollah, completely remove the Palestinian Authority, but be much softer and so much caring of Palestinian individuals who are being mistreated, who are suffering, and provide them education, infrastructure, job opportunities, roads, equal resources. And once Palestinians experience Israel as caring for their lives, not as putting them to the side, then the conditions can change for us to be able to shift the culture and be able to see each other as one living in the civilization.
So, question if you're you're you're completely okay with the return of all Palestinians to their homeland, but that's contingent that the 20 million Jews from around the world will come back. Let's say if those 20 million, they don't want to come back. They're happy where they are. They're happy in America, they're happy in Argentina. They say, "No, I don't want to go back to the Middle East. It's too much." So, are you going to tell those Palestinians who are still willing to come back from the refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, and Egypt that they they're not allowed to come unless those Jews around the world are willing to come? Is that Is that what you're pointing to keep to keep the the the the demographic structure that you were hoping to keep?
Ahmed, don't get me wrong. I'm not a referee. I'm not in the middle. I'm on the side of Israel, and I'm telling you what the non-negotiables are for the Israeli side. And as someone on the Israeli side, I understand what the non-negotiables are on your side. And in order to be able to get there, we have to create a reality that can work for both. I'm telling you that there are nine and a half tribes of Israel. As you know, there are 12 tribes. This is not something new that exists out there, and they are You're saying that So, no. Right, the answer is no.
The answer is that if I could actually if I could actually jump in here because again, I see really good faith coming from both of you, and I think this is a very interesting point that we're in in the conversation. Rudy, something that you said that I admittedly get kind of stuck on, Dr. Ahmed might feel the same way, is when you said you don't see Judaism as a religion, and you kind of described it as as several things afterwards, including kind of a nation and and a people. But, I as again, as an outsider, I I think the tricky thing is Judaism is a religion. Like, there are many, many people who see it that way, who practice it. And but it is also, you know, kind of in seen as at an ethnicity because there's a a a a you can trace the lineage back. So, it it exists as many things, and it's also now I mean, the Star of David is on the flag. So, I think this is a source of of confusion, and I think where wires get crossed is it means so many things to so many different people. So, what you're describing to us is is kind of a political project, not that different to maybe like the United States. Like, let's build a great republic, and that's admirable. But, then as you go deeper into it, it can also sound like a religious project, which I think invites a lot of pushback because that just raises concerns. Do you hear kind of what I'm Yeah, so let me let me address it.
Just to address Ahmed on on his question cuz I wasn't able to to respond. Um the same way you would want to see the right of return, but you would not accept a reality with the right of return that doesn't also come with freedom from the river to the sea, I cannot accept anything that you're asking if it doesn't fulfill the non-negotiables on my side. What I do believe is that we can be able to get there together. The non-negotiables on my side are non-negotiable. The same way they're non-negotiable for yours, but I'm proposing a path that we can both have what we need. Now, Judaism is not a religion. I know a lot of us have been constantly saying that, but the moment that that started in history of us referring to Judaism as a religion is in the time of Napoleon. Napoleon was one of the first individuals in European history to give Jews equal rights. Until then, we were constantly persecuted, and even shortly after Napoleon, we went right back to persecution. But, what what is the one word be that you would you would choose? >> because a religion is only a belief system for any people, and Judaism is not only a belief system, and it isn't for any people. It is for one people. We are a civilization, But, that's a religion. Do you believe in God? Yes, we have But, God does not believe in us. >> has a specific purpose for you? I believe Hashem created this world and has a specific purpose for every single person. But, let me tell you But, I think you're not being intellectually honest if you don't acknowledge that that is that is like the core of what all human beings see as religion. >> let me tell you, there are indigenous civilizations like >> but that's just Okay, this is >> the weakness I feel like on your side is that that feels intellectually dishonest. >> Would you say that Aboriginals, Maoris, and indigenous Native Americans are religions? Yet, they have spiritualities, but they're not religions. So, a native population can have a spirituality. Maybe the Western modern nations don't, but ancient indigenous peoples absolutely have spirituality at the core of their civilization, and even if an individual does not believe in that spirituality, they still all are part of the people. You're looking at spirituality through the framework of Western societies, and it doesn't work through Western societies because we're not part of the West. No, this is what I'm trying to point out. And >> But, all the claims about the Holy Land and the Temple, it's all religious. No, it's historical. That's where we came from. It's actually history. Where Where did it come from? It's all religious. It's all >> history. You dig in the land, you find our history. That's not God saying something. >> It's about ethnicity. How can someone become an ethnic? Well, there are Native American nations that have a way for one to actually become Native American. It's actually almost identical to converting to Judaism. It's up to the indigenous population to choose how one becomes a member of their society, and I wouldn't see any of you guys going to Native Americans and telling them, "You don't have an ability for someone to join your nation." It's only when it comes to the Jewish people that we're being challenged. But, Rudy Rudy, I I hear I I mean, thank you for allowing me to push back. And again, I'm not I don't have the utmost confidence that I'm right, but I I have a really strong hunch here that this is this is a problem or or a a point that similar to what I said about Hamas on the other side as like something that needs to be more closely examined by the Palestinian side if they want to see their goals achieved. I feel like this is this is quite confusing because indigenous peoples don't possess nuclear weapons. There's no nation-state that we can think of today that accurately represent But, I'm Can they? Possibly, but I I guess But, let's think about Let's think about the now. And so, as an American, there's this is a a point of major contention in American politics is are we or are we not a Christian nation? And I believe it's Thomas Jefferson's, you know, he's famously quoted for the separation of church and state, and many Americans hold that very dear, and there's a a vocal uh political movement in the United States that wants the United States to be seen as a Christian nation. Now, that's a very divisive point of contention. And so, what I'm saying is it to kind of brush past what the average person, what the normal person sees as religion, and say, "We're not a religion, we're a civilization, but there are elements of our culture that are very much religious, like belief in a specific God, and um a culture centered around those practices, and and and those faith-based uh you know, touchstones. I I don't think you're going to get the support or or even just the understanding of of a lot of people by by trying to kind of merge all those things into one thing. Well, is isn't spirituality different than religion? Because there are many indigenous civilizations that have spirituality at the core of their identity, like Native Americans who believe in a wolf deity and a barefoot deity and all kinds of very interesting deities. And if an individual Native American doesn't believe in that, they're still Native American and they're not calling their identity a religion. It's only applied to the Jewish people. And that's because the Jews have been mistakenly communicating to the world that we're a religion. In our mind, what we're saying is this is our spirituality. But what the world is hearing is that this is a wandering ideology that is not based on being a people. Look at Iran today. Is it not a Persian country? Of course it's a Persian country. Are there non-Persians that are living as Iranians? Yes. Is it still a Persian country? Yes. Is being Persian a religion? No. Is it connected to spiritualities historically? Yes. So, you're looking at it through the Western framework that to be spiritual, you must be a part of a religion and that doesn't work for ancient civilizations, like the Mayans, like the Aztecs and others. But I can't think of any example that would line up with what you're saying where it's like we've been incorrectly referring to ourselves as a religion and we see ourselves as And I and I I believe many millions and millions of Jews would disagree with you. And they they even those who are living in under the Israeli government and they they still they would disagree with you. And there are There are many more Jews that would agree with me than disagree with me, especially when they hear the explanation of what it means to be a religion. Let me bring this back to the discussion, regardless if you count yourself as an ethnicity or a religious or a spirituality. nation You have bombs and F-15s and F-16s who are killing people, bombing homes in Gaza every and and you're still doing And and you're still doing that and you're still using all your money and your power to influence American politics. I mean, John asked a very good question. It's like what can we do as as as Americans as as Westerners? What you're doing right now, John, is amazing. The fact that you're able to have this discussion, this dialogue without the fear of someone's pulling out from advertising in your show, without the fear of someone pushing you to say no, you cannot air this episode. This is this is highly respectful and highly appreciated from many people like John who are now going out and pushing the envelope and saying let's hear what Palestinians have to say. We've been screaming out by ourselves in the corners for the past 20, 30, 40 years and no one wants to listen to us. CNN anchors and and and and hosts who've been kicked out because simply they acknowledged that there's a suffering of the Palestinians in one of the episodes and one of their talks. Many many other politicians lost their but so >> [clears throat] >> So, the fact that we are now hearing the Palestinian voices is highly appreciated, John. And that is something So, good good discussion, good talk. I don't know if it's going to make a difference whether you believe Judaism is a religion or spirituality or ethnicity on on what's happening on the ground. It does have effect on what's happening historically because all your claims is religious claims. No, historical claims. They it's not a religion. So, so I I These are things that um Ahmed, what is the name of your city? It's Bethlehem. That's history. That is Hebrew. We come from this land. That's not a spirituality or biblical verse. That is actual history. It's historically No, but I say history and you keep trying to make it about religion. It's not a religious argument. Many of the descendants of the Hebrews who named Bethlehem, they still live there. They didn't go to Europe. >> Yes, I agree with that. I agree with that. So, why are we bringing Europeans to to have more claim over the people? >> They were displaced in Europe the same way Palestinians that are displaced elsewhere are not part of those other societies. They're not Europeans. Stop trying to delegitimize our identity cuz some of us, not all of us, not even most Israelis, the minority of Israelis had an experience external in Europe. We come from the same land that you come from. We are the same family. If we tested our blood, we would have the same DNA. But this is not a religious argument, it's a historical argument. And the majority of media, by the way, is against Israel on social media and on on national news. This is new. This is the action This is the results of the actions of the Israeli government. This is new. This is just for the past 2 years. >> No, this is the rise of anti-Semitism and people using your cause only when it fits their agenda. When Palestinian Guys, let me Let Let me put it We're unraveling In context, they don't care about that. anti-Semitism. It's all about civil war, man. anti- >> people spoke about Palestinians dying in the Syrian Civil War in Black September, suffering under the Palestinian Authority, being killed once Israel left by Hamas? Who spoke about those Palestinians? Nobody. The thing is that I want to Guys, I want to We have Holocaust museums >> [clears throat] >> around the world. Americans have been shoved in their throats to learn about the Holocaust. They've been They've been They've been forced >> learn about the Holocaust? No, but that comes with consequences that when the people who who have presented themselves as the victims, now they're causing the problem, people going to have to face this. But that has nothing to do with now.
Dr. Ahmed and Rudy, I want to cuz we're coming up We're actually on time. So, I I want to give Rudy I want to give you both the opportunity to say one last thing, but let's let's here I don't mean I want to make sure that you both know that I see you all as independent voices. You know, Rudy is speaking for himself. Rudy is a content creator who says very unique things in his content and he I believe that he's speaking from his independent voice. I don't believe he is controlled by some larger agenda. And I admire him for that and that's why Jubilee was interested in engaging with him. And why we're here. And Dr. Ahmed, I believe you are someone who's very uniquely willing to entertain um with constructive conversations about what the future could be like in a unique way. But if my goal here was to kind of like and I did think we uncovered some unique things, but I also wanted to communicate where as an outsider I felt there were weak points in in how I was receiving the messages from both of you. And so, I wanted I hope that you can kind of take that away where it's like as an outsider I'm not follow You lost me there. Like you're you're losing people like me there. And so, Hamas was an example, but then this kind of this this um lack of clarity around what Judaism means to people, but and I know Rudy what it means to you, but what I think what other people associate it with. That was something I wanted to to point out. And I didn't mean to to come across as as like leaning more one way or the other. But I I appreciate you both for participating in this. And I want to give you each kind of a an opportunity to What would your closing thought be in as constructive of a way as possible? Like your hope for where this can lead to. Rudy, why don't you start us off? Sure. John, I didn't take offense. You know, we can have a passionate conversations and know that our our hearts are in a good place. I'm not going to bring any critiques because, you know, this is closing statement to talk about the future and on positivity. >> Jubilee, please. I invite that. >> I'm I'm I'm talking actually about about the the Palestinian side because if then critiques, I won't be able to respond after. So, I'll focus solely on the positive outlook. And I think every Israeli and Jew listening and every Palestinian and Arab listening has to understand there is no future where either of us disappear. There's not a future where we're all going to be killed on one side or the other. There's not going to be a future where all going to be displaced on one side or the other. And the status quo is clearly impossible and making us all suffer. And it's not about competition of who's suffering more, it's about a reality that we are all suffering. Israel has the power to be able to make the change. That doesn't mean that Palestinians have no power to be able to do anything at all, but we need to understand that there is no future without each other. And the conversation should be focused on what are the non-negotiables and how can we take the steps to be able to get there. And never vilifying and seeing the other person's identity and history as the source of our problem. If we see it that way, then the conversation goes left and south and bad right away. But we need to be able to understand that each other's identity are not linked to our suffering and we both have a place to stay here forever. Inshallah b'ezrat Hashem. I I don't think I disagree much on many of the points that you mentioned. Honestly, um when we met the first time in the in the in the surrounded episode in my mind, you have to understand sitting down in front of an Israeli soldier the only thought that comes to my mind that, you know what, this could be the one who's going to kill me one day. That's that that comes to my mind when I'm in the West Bank or when I'm in Bethlehem. Um so, uh the fact that you are speaking that way and coming from the side that you are clearly and openly pro-Israel but yet willing to sit down and see Palestinians coming back to their lands. I hope and I pray more people will start thinking that way. I don't want sellouts. I don't want to sit down with sellouts who are who are anti their own people. No, I respect people who are promoting the causes of their own community and their own nation. Um but I have more respect to people who do it in a fair way, in a in a just way. So, I'm hoping that you will your voice will get louder in your own community. And I'm hoping more people will join your movement. And I'm hoping more people will listen to what you're saying. Uh and I'm hoping one day the government will start acting in a similar way. What regardless and I'm hoping as John said this is a genuine claim. I'm hoping more people will be >> [clears throat] >> speaking in that same language. On both sides. I don't know what the future is hiding for us. I don't know where we going to be in 10 years from now. We're hoping that we will see that civilization prosper where every single person under it having complete equal freedoms and rights regardless of their ethnicity, regardless of their faith, regardless of their religion. And people who are living as refugees will be back in their homes or they'll be compensated. And I'm hoping that we won't see more kids getting killed on either side. Well, thank you both so much. Uh it really is a privilege just to to be in this position even though I feel very unqualified. And I thank you for sharing your evening and your morning on opposite ends of the world. And I wish you you both great rest of your day and and and safety and health. For more follow-up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to like, subscribe, leave us a positive review, follow us wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching the video version, subscribe to Jubilee. If you want to see video episodes of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee's YouTube channel. Thanks for supporting us. Thanks for listening. Remember, you could be wrong. So could I. Keep your mind open. Until next time.