Transcription
All right, so when we're talking about Sun to Pluto aspects and synastry, we are looking at the vitality and the conscious idea of oneself, which is the Sun. And the, um, really the complex structure of ego that the Sun represents. And Pluto, which is, uh, breakdown and renewal, and control, and ways in which we achieve security, often through, uh, underhanded means, or means even not completely consciously known to ourselves.
So, uh, Pluto is what inspires change in ourselves and within other people as well. So when we have Pluto in context of the Sun, we're looking at how is that Plutonic need to reach out and change and mutate something, or have control or influence? How is that interacting with someone's sense of self and vitality and individual expression?
So the vitality is the life force. It's, it's the, the Sun itself. It's, it's the reason for the season. It's everything that the archetypal universe really depends on and gravitates around. And so that's the soul itself. The soul of the solar system represents the soul of the individual and humanity as well. Spirit, you could say. So the life force within us, when that's coming up against someone else's death force, this is what we're looking at. Is this harmonious, or is this something that is going to be difficult? Because outer planets always have more of an effect on the inner planets, whether we're looking at natal charts, synastry, transits, the outer planet has like the larger influence.
So, um, when we're looking at Sun to Pluto, let's first look at the conjunction and the opposition. Uh, the conjunction, the opposition, the sesquiquadrate, the square, and the semi-square. All the difficult aspects. And the conjunction as well, but it's not, um, we'll talk about that one in the end. That can have kind of an either/or effect to it.
So the conjunction itself, um, will put pressure on the Sun person. The, the influence of the Pluto person puts pressure on the Sun person to change, to have some kind of, uh, re-doing of themselves. So they can find that they are, um, you know, giving up certain patterns, certain elements of themselves. And in a way, this can be actually quite good for the Sun person. And say, if you were, you know, in India and you met up with a guru and you had this conjunction, it would be awesome in that situation. It would be amazing. It'd also be amazing in a therapy situation, if it were the therapist themselves that had the Pluto. It's much, much harder to bear or to deal with in situations where you're not in it to lose your ego or parts of yourself or tear yourself into pieces so you can see what's there. This process of, you know, relentless examination.
Most of us are in relationships, and romantic relationships, for, you know, harmony and for getting along and doing things together and enjoying life together. And most of us don't want to marry our therapist, unless you're in therapy and you fall in love with your therapist, and that's a whole other psychological lesson that we can talk about some other day. So that's never going to work out anyway. That's not love, that's transference.
So we, uh, we need to take into account, um, how much psychology we really want to deal with in our actual personal relationships, because we only have so much energy. And this is one that does cause the breakdown of the identity of the Sun person, a breakdown of how it is that they think themselves up.
So with the opposition, there can be quite a lot of hostility that comes with the interaction of, uh, the selfhood of the Sun and the need to have influence, um, and to spur change with the Pluto person. So we tend to, I resist heavily, uh, those changes. With the conjunction, that can be very much the same. It's not automatically as, um, hateful as the opposition. But with the conjunction, the Sun person can feel very pressured to, you know, be something that that they may not want to be, or they can feel that they're more in the presence of an enemy than a friend.
So, um, we can feel that our, our very vitality, or our very life, our very, uh, personal creativity, the essence of the Sun, like that is at stake when it is in a difficult aspect to the Sun person. I'm sorry, the Pluto person. The Pluto person is largely unaware of most of what's going on. It's a, uh, an interesting interaction when you see the opposition because the Sun person can be quite, um, uh, like volatile, volatility, uh, resistant to how the Pluto person treats them or the influence that they try to have on them. And the Pluto person can find this to be like, really, like uncalled for. So there's not this, you know, conscious move in on to the Sun person. It's very under the table when it comes to how the Pluto person is operating.
So, um, we can often find the Sun person to be, you know, just like irrational when it comes to our suggestions or our influence. And the Sun person would have a very, very different opinion about that and find us to be, you know, you know, to be pushy, or or want too much, or to have something aggressive in our own nature. So, but to be really careful as the Pluto person, to be really, to be consciously hands-off if we have our Pluto in a hard aspect to someone else's Sun. Because, uh, any moves that we make to have some kind of influence over them are going to be negatively interpreted. So we have to, you know, reiterate, you know, "I'm not here to control you," or, you know, "I, I was just giving a suggestion. I'm not saying that's the way it has to be." You know, "I'm just throwing that out there." We have to do a lot of hands-off stuff, a lot of these motions.
You know, that's no, no, no, no. And we can even get into things like, um, like, uh, say where we have a couple or even friends, and they are traveling together, they're in a new city, and there's things to do, there's things to see. And we have one of them that says, um, uh, "Well, what, what is it that we should do? What is it that we should see first?" Say this is the Sun person. You know, "What should we see first?" And, you know, the Pluto person would say, "Well, you know, let's, uh, let's, uh, go by, let's see the Louvre first. We're in Paris. Let's go see all the beautiful artwork. Let's go check it out." And, you know, so, you know, the, the day goes by, you know, they're doing their stuff together. And, um, time comes, you know, to go to the Louvre. And the, uh, the Sun person, they start to get like, uh, like cranky about it. Like, you know, kind of quiet, like shutting doors a little bit harder than usual. You can see there's some, some aggression going on here. And it gets time to go, and, you know, they're getting like more stiff and more stiff. And then finally, you know, they're on the taxi ride there to get to the Louvre. And the Pluto person looks over and like, "Yo, what's up? You seem like you're upset." You're like, "I'm not upset." "No, you, what's up? You seem like you're..." "I'm not upset." "Oh, all right. Your body language is just, you know..." "Same." "Well, you know what? I wanted to go to the parks. I wanted to see all the doves in the parks. And here we are. We have to, we always have to do what you want to do." And the Pluto person's like, "Um, we, I thought this is what we wanted to do." So, well, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So it's one of those things where the Sun person can more often than not interpret that the Pluto person is the one calling the shots or being in control. When really, that's not always the case. But there are some subtle ways that the Pluto person will, uh, extend their influence that that can happen. But it's up to the Sun person to realize that the Pluto person, um, may sometimes have some good suggestions. Sometimes their influence is appropriate. But we have to learn the difference.
So, um, yeah, hostility and resistance is what we typically see with the conjunction and the opposition. Uh, the other hard aspects, like with the, um, with the square, this is also something that tends to produce resistance, but it comes up a lot sooner than the opposition or the conjunction. With the square, we tend to notice, uh, pretty early on that we aren't that compatible when it comes to the confidence and the ego of the Sun person being supported and how the Pluto person operates, how they can extend their influence. This is much, much more obvious in how the Pluto person is exerting, asserting their control over the Sun person. It's much easier for the Pluto person to understand it, and it's much more, it's just more obvious what's happening between the two people.
So the Pluto person can be like, um, you know, suggest things like, you know, "You should change your hair," or "You should, uh, you know, maybe, you know, dress a little bit differently," or "Maybe you should go into this business or that business." And, uh, it's not always with the Sun person's best interest in mind. A lot of times, it does have some of the Pluto person's own agenda that is wrapped up in that. So the Sun person picks up on that and they're like, "You know what? That is not what I'm doing. The last thing I'm going to do is change my hair for a man." So we can have some really rough responses there.
As opposed to the easy aspects, like the, uh, the sextile or the trine, really the only easy aspects that there would be. The Sun person does not resist the Pluto person's influence. They really don't find it to be offensive. They don't find it to be something that is conflicting with their own idea of themselves. So like somebody's Pluto sextile or trine our Sun, they'll be like, "Have you, you know, thought about, you know, changing your hair, doing that a little bit differently? I, I think that this would look really cute on you." And then the Sun person would be like, "You know what? I hadn't even thought about that. I, I think I might do that. I love that idea." So it's, we don't find it to be offensive. We don't resist it. We don't feel like the Pluto person's agenda is not supportive of what we want or what we want to be. So their influence, their, uh, sort of unconscious hand that comes out and changes us, it's very beneficial, we feel, to how and who we are.
So there's, uh, a deep appreciation that we can have for somebody's Plutonic influence because again, it doesn't cause anything to break down. There's a breakdown with the hard aspects. Ideas of ourselves can break down, our confidence can break down. So we have to be careful about, um, you know, how we treat each other when we have those hard aspects because there's, uh, some difficult things that can occur.
So with the, uh, square as well, there's actually a hostility that is present so early on that often it will keep a relationship from forming. If we have this in a family relationship, and if they get somebody asked that, what happens if this in a family relationship? We tend to not like each other very much. We tend to not be very friendly with each other. We can have other things going that are going on, like we can, um, you know, have certain activities that we can enjoy together, things that don't involve the egos of the two people, or the ego of the Sun, at least, that would be, you know, things that we could do together. But there's a feeling of again, resistance between the two people, rather than harmony or working together.
So, you know, that feeling of, you know, "Have you ever worked with somebody that you felt did not have your best interest in mind?" So you kind of had to watch out for them, you had to kind of feel like you'd defend for yourself. There wasn't the kind of trust that was there with maybe a co-worker that you feel that, you know, isn't looking to one-up on you, they're looking to get ahead. They don't have any kind of agenda when it comes to dealing with you. That's how we feel as a Sun person, is that the, the Pluto person has an agenda when it comes to us, and that puts our hackles up. So we have trust issues that tend to come in between the two of us.
So we have to be very careful not to to deal with each other out of selfishness, especially as the Pluto person. To be really careful to ask ourselves all the time, when we're dealing with the Sun person, all the time, "What is my motive? What is my motive for acting this way towards them? What is my motive for wanting this? What is my motive for advising this?" We always have to look at, "What is it that we want out of the deal?" And that can really take the sting out of everything because the Sun person won't, well, we will probably have some stuff slip by, but the Sun person, for the most part, is going to see us as, you know, exerting self-control instead of control over them. And that's what we want to come to with our Pluto stuff, is to realize that we can be our own worst enemy and to, to really deal with that as it is, rather than to project that or those fears outside of ourselves, and to deal with our own security issues, to deal with our own need to keep to hang on, and to have, uh, the willingness to let go. I think that's a big part of love is to be willing to let go, or to even give somebody breathing space or distance, even if it's a child, to be willing to let them say, "Go off to college," to be willing to let them, uh, you know, go more than 12 or 15 feet away from you, because there's this, this, uh, this trust that we can build in each other. And, and to, uh, realize that, allowing somebody the space to have their their solar power, this that's their unique ability to be themselves, sometimes that's a little bit risky for us as the Pluto person, but we have to, to really allow that to be the case anyway.
So there's, uh, yeah, there's a lot of, uh, upheaval that can come into our personality if we are the Sun person. And, uh, I have to be careful how we deal with each other.
The in conjunction is very interesting. That does present the possibility that we can have some extreme amount of influence or control that is exerted, especially by the, the Pluto person. But you really have to look at the natal aspects. If we have the Sun person who already is, uh, maybe has a highly sensitive personality or an empathic personality, um, if they are at risk of getting involved with a Plutonic influence or somebody who has the ability to manipulate them. And if we have this in conjunction with somebody that has those Plutonic tendencies. So if we have an extreme, a more extreme tendency in the natal charts when it comes to the Sun person's empathy and the Plutonic person's control issues, then that can lead to the more extreme, even kind of a Svengali kind of influence, where the Sun person can just feel that they are, um, really at the mercy of the Pluto person's power.
The other way it can show up, if we don't have those extreme tendencies, is that it will oftentimes keep a meaningful relationship from forming. The Sun person can, because it, I want to say it feels like there's a mismatch when it comes to how and who the Sun person is and what and who the Pluto person wants to seek to control or to be influential over. So there's, um, an odd either/or that can happen with the in conjunction. For some people, it's not consequential. For other people, depending on what's in the natal charts, it's quite so. So if we have two like relatively even people in temperament or empathy and aggression, then it isn't likely to develop into something weird. But we have to look for that imbalance.
Yeah, I think we had a comment, somebody's had the agenda with the square. Yeah, that's an interesting one. Um, I can see that one. Sometimes in the early stages of a relationship, where we have a lot of attractions, quite a lot of chemistry, there's, you know, even some lifestyle things that are that are working. But that square does, I, it like brings a trepidation almost about what's to come, or, uh, how things are gonna, you know, wash out in the end. So I think that oftentimes the two people have that feeling of, "This is going to be a really consequential thing," and wanting to have, oftentimes, more information about what's going to happen, what it's going to lead to.
So always with Pluto, it's very much like we're standing in front. I use this all the time, this imagery. We're standing from a front of a dark cave, and we are both scared and really interested about what's in there. There's this hole towards the inside of that darkness, and we are equally compelled and repelled. With the hard aspects, I would say even with the square, maybe more repelled than compelled. But, um, so if we go in that cave, say, if we have the square, where the Sun, we go into that cave, I, we're going to come out very, very different, and it's going to be through a process of pressure and more of a difficult journey through that cave. Is with the opposition, it's going to be even more so. There's going to be more stumbling along there. Say we go in, and the cave is the influence of a sextile or a trine. We're going to feel like, "This actually feels pretty good in here. You know, I didn't expect that I was going to lose some clothes and come out with a nose job, and, you know, hey, you know, I like this. This is this is working for me." So we don't feel that it's a scary thing at all. We don't feel that what we're compelled to find out had any danger in it.
So I have to look at it in terms of how dangerous is the Pluto person's influence when it comes to our idea of ourself. Stacy, as you're talking, I keep thinking about the Persephone and Pluto archetypes. And I was wondering if they were, I don't, I don't know if you can answer this, but in synastry, would there be a Sun-Pluto synastry relationship between Pluto and Persephone playing out? Or when it comes to the identity? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think Persephone can take, we could see many of the different archetypes in in her. So let's pick out what the Sun would look like. That would be, um, well, you know, she was above ground, she was enjoying her life, she was, you know, free, she was out picking berries and enjoying nature. And he shows up all rapey and decides to take her downtown. And she lost her identity. She didn't get to choose what she wanted to be. She was forced into a role. So we could liken that element of it to what the Sun person goes through. Is they can feel that, um, you know, they're choosing what, what with their idea of what it is to shine. You know, that's not allowed. That's not supported. So, um, she could only be herself, Persephone, the way she chose to be, uh, for a certain period of time throughout the year. And so that's how we can feel as the Sun person. We can feel it when we get away from the influence of the Pluto person. We can like take a full lung full of air. We can, you know, finally breathe because there isn't that pressure, there isn't that, um, that influence of entropic change that's there. So, um, yeah, the identity, you know, the, what we choose to be, we just feel that that's under threat. So that's a good point, Stacy. Yeah, when we talk about Pluto, it's always good to relate the mythology to it. It helps us to understand. And Pluto can, the, the original mythology is so, uh, dark, if you will. But Pluto people, when they are like the Pluto person, can have a regenerative, like positive effects on people. Question that? Okay. Uh-huh. Yeah, but that's going to go, that's going to come with the hard aspects. It always comes through a process of pain, or there's a certain amount of suffering or difficulty or pressure. And same thing within our personality when we have those in our natal chart. We can potentially get the good stuff. Pluto is a buried treasure, but it takes energy to get that, doesn't it? You have to dig for it. You have to take action. It's something that we end up with after a certain amount of exertion. So in our own personalities, yeah, Pluto can lead to the most deep, the darkest secrets. And you're only as sick as your secrets. So that's where the healing can really come from is the, the introspection, the, the pressure that we can feel to change, because humans do not change unless there's pain. We don't, we don't take the energy that it takes to change unless there's a certain amount of suffering or unsuccess or difficulty that's involved. And then we will change. We won't even, you know, go around with a gaping gangrenous wound if it's not getting in our way, you know, like, "I'm not gonna, you know, get that taken care of another day." So we just don't bring our pressure to things until it's, it, it's taken a certain amount of our attention. So that's what Pluto does. Is it forces us to see things? It forces us to change. It forces us to address things. And again, the Sun person is not going to take that. It's not going to take kindly to that. So we just have to understand what kind of power we have as the Pluto person and to try to hold back or use that in a way that supports the Sun person, um, as best that we can. And we really are going to come to that by putting our own ideas about what they can or should be on the back burner and supporting them as they want to be. So there's a certain hands-off, giving up, uh, you know, loving somebody as they are, that will really come too, if we really deal with it well. And that's a tough thing for the Pluto person as a parent, because we can really feel that we're just being parents. We're just, you know, suggesting, you know, that they go to this college or they go, uh, you know, in this direction. And, and this, the Sun child is gonna really feel like, "You know, can't you just let me be who I am? Can't you just let me choose? Why do I have to go to Princeton and have it all paid for? I wanted to go to this community college over here." And sometimes they will, just because we put a suggestion out there. And as the, the Pluto person, especially if the child's Sun is in opposition to our Pluto, we can really interpret them as being a real jerk. You know, "Here I am offering this, and you just throw this back in my face." So we have to look at it like they took it as an insult as to who they were. So we have to comment them like, "What is it that you want? What is it? What does the path forward look like for you? How can I help you?" Um, and if they ask for help or influence, then we can offer it. But that's a, that's a tough thing because in normal, you know, parent-child relationships, we're gonna make suggestions, we're gonna try to guide them. And the guidance is so strongly resisted and resented in a, a parent-child relationship with the difficult aspects from Sun to Pluto. The loft, a lot of times, as the Pluto parent will have to parent them very lightly. And that, that can be rough because we may have other Pluto things going on too. We're really going to want to keep them safe. It's going to be like our heart is outside of our chest, walking around exposed. Anything could happen to it. And we can learn a great lesson by allowing them to be their own guide in, in some measure. So I think that we have to learn to parent them lightly in, in some ways when we don't want a child to feel like we are extinguishing their personal identity. Because, you know, what you suggest to one child's could be taken very, uh, mildly, and he seems very helpful. And you can make the same suggestion to a different child, and Elsie is trying to crush their identity. So you just have to be careful. And children, the way that they require parenting is always very, very different, very, very individual. They're all so different. So I think we need to be respectful of that. And then just realize why they are so hostile, and it just doesn't seem called for.
What if, what if the child is the Pluto person? Does that give them the upper hand? That is very difficult. That could be one of those things where they don't approve of the parent, or that they can actually feel that there's like some, like shame for the parent, or something like, um, uh, so I think that there's a disapproval that, that the parent feels because the child can look at the parent like, "You know, I wanted to be raised on Prune Hill by doctors and respectable people. And here I am in this two-bedroom, one-bedroom house being raised by teachers." And so we can put out that vibe that this is not what I wanted. I don't appreciate this because this is not, this is not, you know, the kind of life, this isn't the kind of identity that I wanted for my parents. Because as the child, we very much take on the identity of our parents. What our parents do for a living is everything to do with our own status in life as a child. It'll determine the zip code that we live in. It'll determine how other people regard us and treat us as the children of successful parents, or middlely successful parents, or regular old parents. That status really does, um, have an effect on how we can feel about ourselves because it affects how other people treat us and look at us in life and society. So, um, we could just feel that the, the Pluto person is like strongly not appreciative of who we are in ourselves as a person. And that can really suck because that is hard in a relationship. That's like that permanent state that you go through in teenagehood where they're ashamed of you and they don't want you kissing them or touching them. And if you do try to hug them, like it's all that resentment, there are all their angst that's going on there. That's like the way it is chronically when you have the hard aspects.
So, um, you know, we just have to give them a message that, you know what, "What you want to do about you is up to you. And the consequences are also up to you." Um, because there could be a blaming that happens to you. If the Pluto person is the child, they can really feel that, well, I want to say that this, the Sun parent can become a scapegoat for the Pluto child's ills or issues, or how they feel that they personally haven't succeeded or matched up to what they wanted to be. You can often see the shortcomings of the Sun parent as the root of that problem. So these are complex aspects in relationships. Absolutely complex. And I wouldn't want to have one with a pet either, because that would be really hard to, to come to terms with that. Especially if you're the Sun person, you'd be like, the pet would just not want anything to do with you.
So, um, does anybody have any questions or comments? Not so much. Okay, let me look at what timing we have here. Oh, look, actually, oh, I have another question though. Yeah, go ahead. Uh, what about the synastry aspect with, uh, Sun-Pluto, uh, quintile and bi-quintile? Um, it's a hard aspect. It's, it's something that I would, it, it's not as nasty as the square. And it will cause creative change in the Sun person. As all of the aspects will. Well, we're going to be changed by the influence of the Pluto person, whether we like that or not. They're going to have some kind of effect on us. It's a consequential relationship. And we can resist it with the hard aspects, or we can go along with it with the easy aspects. With the quintile, there's a little bit of both where there's some harmony that is there between what the Pluto person wants to change and how the Sun person is willing to change and what's okay with them. When it comes to the idea of change, but there's also going to be quite a lot of tension when it comes to the Pluto person, um, putting pressure on the Sun person in a way that causes them to become more personally creative in the way that they develop their talents. So the pressure that the Pluto person puts on them, the influence, the Sun person, whatever unique abilities or talents that exist there, that's like how we, uh, well, here would be a, like a hypothetical. Like say, it's a, a, a wife and a husband, and she just has a high school education and several children, and he, you know, makes all the money. And so she really doesn't have any means of support. Say she lives out in the country, there aren't even a lot of jobs available, she doesn't even have a car. And she wants to change her life. She either wants to leave the marriage or she wants to have some kind of independence. And because there's a quintile, the kind of pressure that he would put on her to change or be better, how she would interpret him would like cause her to realize or recognize that she's really good at, um, alterations, sewing. This is something she's always loved. She's always loved piecing textiles together. And so she starts to develop this talent or bring her attention to this talent, refine this talent in a way where she's starting to make money. And pretty soon she's opening a little business. And then pretty soon she's actually having some real success. She actually actually a couple of employees. And so now she's in a position where because she was married to this jerk, it caused her to become to come to such a creative solution to the problem of him wanting her to be different, that she refined and developed this talent that she now is more uniquely known for, which is what quintiles and bi-quintiles result in. It's refinement of that unique solar ability. So yeah, uh, and, you know, because it's a quintile, there would be some things in common. Say he bought her a sewing machine in the beginning and put together a sewing room for her. But he's still, you know, "Once I change her hair," and she resents that, and, you know, "wants her butt to be bigger." And she's like, "I have a cracker butt. It's just the way it's gonna be." So, you know, we can want something different. But, you know, it, we could interpret the other person as, "That's just really insulting. That's extremely insulting." Or say, if we have the trine or the sextile, we'd be like, "Oh, I don't know. You like big butts? I'm going to the gym. I'm gonna please you." So we're okay. We're okay with it. Cracker butt was from the 80s, I think. Somebody might be familiar with that old term. So, yeah, it's just different degrees of how we, um, interpret each other's, uh, how we interpret the Pluto person's influence. You know, sometimes we appreciate it, sometimes we just want to kick him out of the house. It just depends.
So I also want to look at, do we have a great deal of Plutonic, uh, energy or Plutonic, [Music] need to control? Do we have the need to control in the Pluto person's personality? That can also be something that can contribute to the Sun person, the hard aspect to the Sun person, feeling like, "I am not into this." You know, "I am what I am, and I'm going to be what I'm going to be, and I'm not appreciating these ideas that I should be anything other than that." So we also want to look at that to see, do we have somebody who's got a mild Pluto? Do you think we have somebody who needs to mute? Oh, that's me. That's okay. Um, so there's a, there's a consciousness the Pluto person has to come to. They have to become really conscious of how they're being, how they're reaching out, how they're being interpreted, and then to do what they can to put the Sun person at ease. So is that what makes sense today? Any other questions or comments or observations?
I have a question. Yes. I wrote it, but I can just, Oh, okay. Yes. Far into this are kind of having a lot of this kind of aspect with the in conjunction. Yes, that can happen. If we have the extreme example of having quite a lot of control, yeah, that can be something that can come in. We can also see that with, um, Mars in conjunctions to Pluto and to Neptune as well. Um, with the hard aspects, many times the Sun person is going to resist that. They're not, it's not going to be something that they're going to want to play with, because that's a game that we play. And, um, you could see that kind of behavior if we have other things, I think, that are showing, [Music] humiliation as a theme between the two people. The Sun person does feel humiliated in the relationship in general. Um, but I would say if this were coupled with like a hard aspect from Mars to Saturn, or we're coming up with the unconjunction from Mars to Saturn, or from Mars to Neptune, or or in the in the composite chart, that would this would be something that would be a foundation for that kind of interaction. But, um, I would say it would probably be more common if we had the easy aspects between Sun and Pluto, because then we'd be happy to play that game, and it wouldn't be something that we would feel that you might be personally damaging to us. But the psychology may not be weird enough with the easy aspects to even create that. So yeah, that's a good question. That that element of humiliation is present there. But oftentimes the Sun person is gonna resist it. But we have to look at everything. Anybody else have any questions or observations or comments?
Stacy? Well, sometimes I question the nature of Pluto itself. [Music] Is there a part of that that wants to, I don't know, hoard? It's about keeping. Yeah, food is about keeping. And it's about letting go, loss, and about hoarding. This is why in the charts of people with hoarding behaviors, we're usually going to see like a Pluto second house thing, or Pluto in Taurus, or something where Pluto is related to possessions, um, feeling of physical security, because we have that relationship between stuff and loss that's going on there. So yeah, uh, in relationships, Pluto is about securing. It's about keeping. It's insurance in general. And so, um, we have to learn to relate to people out of love rather than fear of love, rather than keeping. So freedom from for ourselves is ultimately the lesson. Because as long as we are, um, you know, as long as we have an agenda, we are not free ourselves. We cannot be free unless we allow others to be free. If we want to be free, we have to allow others to be as they are first. That's the price. So I think that's how we have to handle each other. I think that's what the lesson is with Pluto relationships, is that I'm going to love you the best as I can, and I'm going to do right by you the best that I can. I'm going to be honest with you as best that I can. And whatever happens, happens. If you leave me, if you don't love me, that's what happens. And to have, uh, you know, the ability to have that unconditional love, because it is decidedly conditional when it is on the darker side of Pluto. That's what agenda is, as conditions. And so we're learning to go into the unknown, and that requires risk. So yeah.
And if someone has a natal chart that has a lot of Pluto contacts to the inner planets, is that going to be the a type of person that's going to want to change people by nature? Well, I think that they're going to, whether they want to or not, they're going to have a strong influence. Yeah, that, and they're going to have a, uh, effect, um, around them. So I, you know, Pluto is also legacies. And people that have a lot of Pluto do, for good or bad, um, leave behind a wake, or a certain amount of influence that is the deepest influence of the people yet to come, we could say. So because Pluto is all the underpinnings of everything, it's really, well, it's what comes before culture. Eighth house comes before ninth. Scorpio comes before Sagittarius. So, um, it's the fears and the underpinnings and all the things we don't know in the darkness that creates all the, that all the hope comes out of in Sagittarius. So, um, people that have a lot of Pluto in them are setting the stage for what is it that we're going to believe in? What is it that we're going to collectively tell each other? Because Pluto can be very much the deepest truth. So, um, how we live our lives and how we come to our personal truth is really that legacy that we leave behind that is so influential when it comes to the next generation. I kind of got broad there. Well, yeah, no, it's good.
Um, but so if someone is just naturally has a lot of Pluto contacts in their natal chart, and then say they're in synastry, the Pluto person in one of these hard aspects, it could be very unnerving, like doubly, like exponentially more unnerving for the, like the Sun person. Absolutely. Can I speak to this a little bit as a, yes, please, please. Um, well, I feel like because Pluto is that outermost planet, and as you were saying, speaks to, you know, legacy, um, it's something, sorry, someone's trying to call me. It's something that takes a lot of time to develop. And so it's something that takes a lot of time to understand how to utilize and wield. So I'm very Plutonic. You know, Pluto is aspecting basically everything in my chart. And I have a lot of Scorpio. Um, so it, I didn't understand for a very long time the effect I was having on people. Um, whatever my intentions were, it doesn't, it doesn't even necessarily matter. Um, I'm someone who is evocative. And so there's a certain level of responsibility that comes with that. Um, and I think there's a certain level of knowing and understanding how to embrace that that comes with that. Because if you don't understand the power you're wielding, the, the consequences of that can be catastrophic, especially in relationships. I also think, absolutely, that Plutonic people, you know, what your question, I forget who asked, I think Stacy, I think, um, about, you know, if you're a Pluto person and then you're a Pluto person in, you know, a relationship with someone with these, you know, the inner planets, first of all, you're probably going to end up in Plutonic situations as a Plutonic person. Like, it's just a part of the deal. Most likely, what we go through the tunnel, we go through to get to the other side. Some of us get lost in the tunnel. Yeah. You know, as a Plutonic person, I've both had very hard Pluto, um, contacts where I'm the inner person and where I am the Pluto person. And sometimes both going on. So I just, I don't know how a very Plutonic person could avoid situations. Well, I think that's that's what we learned through. Where it's, it's the moth to the flame. And, you know, it's like you're drawn to cookies, you're not gonna naturally eat salad, you're gonna be drawn to the cookies, right? So I think we have to, if that's the path, that's what we're gonna, that's the narrative for us, that that's the kind of thing that we're gonna be attracted through, and we're gonna learn through as a result and grow from. But no, I think that that your point about wielding power is dead on. And it doesn't come until we've lived enough life. We have to have enough experiences, enough feedback, enough relationships. We just have to be alive long enough to understand who and what we are. And I feel like the theme with Plutonic people too, is usually actually feeling very disempowered. That's also a part of the whole lesson until again, there's enough maturation and wisdom to understand what actual empowerment is. Um, you know, how to really navigate that and hone that. Because we can also be putting ourselves in positions where we are out of power, or we're like gravitating towards situations that, you know, are going to, um, be kind of sabotaging, or, you know, reinforce that idea of being disempowered, especially if they have oppositions to Pluto, that's likely more likely to happen. Yeah, I'm glad you joined us. You always have such good things to say. I love it. Thank you. No, I think that's a fabulous, fabulous. You have to be careful. What was that? Back into the abyss I go. No, that's very interesting. Does anybody else have anything to add that's interesting about the, oh, because I do have a lot of, uh, Pluto hard contacts, but I always feel like I'm the Persephone person. But according to my chart, I would be the Pluto person. Well, I think that it, it goes back and it can go back and forth, and we can have elements of both that we're playing out. That, uh, you know, being drawn to the relationships itself, or to those types of things, would be that Plutonic vibe that's looking, you know, to experience that. But, um, I think a lot of times we ring this stuff out. We have enough of these experiences and we're like, "You know what? I'm tired. I'm tired of the intensity. I'm tired of the expenditure of energy. I'm tired of being driven by, uh, you know, my own worst aspects of myself." And, and I think we grow out of it. We want something harmonious. We want something peaceful. We want something that is going to be supportive. But very often, we just have to go through that Plutonic tunnel of intensity until we figure out how, until we work out a lot of the stuff that our parents did to us, and a lot of the stuff that, um, I think we just need to grow out of and and learn through. And that's a process. It takes enough relationships and enough living in order to do that. So I think that expecting that we're going to figure this stuff out before our Saturn return is unreasonable, in my my my point of view. I think it's really when we get into our Plutonic phase of life, which is those mid-30s. These are the midlife years. These are when we really start to work out those Plutonic themes and then get to the other side, which would be more into our mid-later 40s when we go into that Sagittarius phase of life. So, yep.
Um, if I could, I wanted to add something. Yes. Switch to this conversation. Yeah. So I am an extremely Plutonic person. Zero degrees Scorpio rising, Pluto in the first, half house, in trine to my Pisces moon, Chiron, just a whole lot of Pluto, a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, lots of Pluto. Um, I just wanted to add that it's a very, very karmic, very, very karmic path, a very, um, spiritual path, if you will. You know, astrology for me is very tied up to my spirituality. But, um, as a child, everything was projected onto me. Just me existing. And Pluto brings out what people refuse to see if they see themselves. So if you're not careful, when you, you, you get conditioned to think like the people who thought of you. And you pass those very things down. It's a very karmic path. And if you're willing to look at yourself and your conditioning, you can become a master, a master of your emotions, a master manifesto. But you have to be willing to take that deep dive into self in order to do it. And that's why I say it's a very, very karmic, a very, very karmic path. Yes, absolutely. I think that's why, uh, Pluto is our DNA. It's the DNA that we actually pass on. Yeah, it's the legacy and our own DNA that we can change, that we can alter that within ourselves. There's a certain type of memory that we pass on, a certain type of, uh, exposure to the world that we pass on. I think that that's that, that we can ourselves mutate so so deeply when it comes to character, when it comes to experience, when it comes to wisdom, that it can actually be something that is, yes, it is at the cellular level. And I think that is, uh, that is the kind of karma, the physical karma that we pass on, and a spiritual one as well. Yeah, I love that observation, Whitney. Thank you. I really relate to what you said, Whitney, about just people projecting, um, projecting things onto you as a child. Sorry, I just wanted to add that, um, I am also a very Plutonic person. I feel like everyone here is probably a bit Plutonic. But, um, I, I like that. I appreciate that. Yeah, that is something important that we really do have to grow up and look at, you know, what is us and what is our idea of us that was really based on how other people saw us, and to reclaim ourselves, and often to, um, to recreate ourselves. But yeah, there's a lot going on there when it comes to growth. So it's like there's a lot of people in this group that are, uh, drawn to this lesson for a reason. Um, so should we wrap up there for today? And we will be back, let's see, we will be back next Sunday with that'll be natal Sunday, and we will be talking about, uh, Neptune through the 11th and the 12th house. And we'll be back Monday again for Aspects Monday, question and answer Wednesday or Tuesday. And then we'll be back next Wednesday for Synastry Wednesday. Does that all make sense? It's all posted, and I can always send out the schedule again. All right, it was good to have some different people today. I think so. We caught some people at the right time. They usually can't make it, so that's always nice to see new faces. All right, guys, we'll see you this weekend.