Will Moroz on Market Trends, Project Strategy & What’s Next in Ball Python Breeding

What's happening, everybody? I got Will Marose of Royal Canadian RCR, Royal Canadian Reptiles, in the Green Room. Stick around tonight. Let's get right to it.

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What's happening, everybody? Thank you for being here. It is 8:00 on the East Coast. It's 7:00 here in Minnesota, where the seasons have finally decided to start making sense. Like, it's beautiful, just high as 64 degrees, sunshine, little breeze. This is why I moved. This is why we put up with the, uh, the rough winters to get to this point. I hope that you all are well. I'm doing well. I am glad to have you. We got, uh, Will Morose tonight. He is back. He's on in the green room. If you don't know Will, you should. Uh, we're going to skip all the introductory stuff and just get right to the content, but, uh, Will's been one of my favorite and most insightful guests. I learned so much from him last time he was on the show. So, stick around tonight.

Uh, a few announcements. If you haven't noticed, especially if you're watching the replay, Proper Royals lives are now brought to you ad-free. I just turned off the ads on YouTube. I heard that it was making the experience really horrible for people that listen after the fact. Uh, you know, if you're driving down the road or you're trying to work and clean and you got to stop what you're doing to skip an ad. And then if you don't skip the ad, then you get like longer and longer, crazier ads. So, because of kind people like Palm Street or Redline Shipping or all the other fine people from our industry that support Proper Royals, but also support the community. No more ads. They're gone. Put the customer first, right? Uh, I wish I'd thought of it sooner. To be honest, it shouldn't have taken me this long to think of it. YouTube monetization is nice and has a nice ring to it and all that, but it doesn't pay anything. Um, and not much anyway. So, I, I shouldn't be ungrateful for it. I appreciated the opportunity, but the value is much stronger for you guys without the ads. So, enjoy. And if you're watching live, go back and watch it again. You don't have to worry about any ads if you do.

Um, huge, uh, I don't know if congratulations is what you say, but most certainly blessings to, uh, Matt Burton from KMBB and his wife. They welcomed a new baby into the world, I believe, on Sunday. I trust all is well and that everybody's healthy. But congratulations. Uh, what a joyous time. Literally the craziest thing I've ever experienced in my life. And I'm not even the one that gave birth. I had the easy part, uh, was becoming a parent. And, um, what a special day. Thanks for sharing the pictures. I saw them on Facebook. Um, Matt, I hope you and your family, uh, get a little time to yourselves, a little time to enjoy this moment in time, and, uh, we'll see you when you get back to it. But, uh, like I say, many, many blessings to, uh, your family.

Uh, I got a banger of a lineup coming up to kick off, uh, summertime next week. Could you imagine having Will Marose and Garrick Deire back to back? I got Garrick Deer next week. Don't ask me how it, uh, these all of these folks are amazing to come hang out with me. I very, very much appreciate it. So, next week, Garrick Demier followed by Portuguese Pythons. Then I got Mike Johnson from Herp Collectors, buddy from early in the days of me doing this, which sounds crazy. It's only been four years, but, uh, I always enjoy hanging out with Mike because we, we always kind of pushed each other and then always kind of looked out for each other. We chat, we bounce ideas off of each other. Um, and I think we forget to do each other's shows sometimes. So, glad to have, uh, Mike back on the show. And then Shane from Smalltown Exotics. So, uh, through from now through July 4th, uh, Garrick Deire, Portuguese Pythons, Mike from Herp Collectors, and, uh, Shane from Smalltown Exotics. So, come hang out. Don't miss, uh, Tuesday nights. And again, they'll all be ad-free for you if you have to catch it on the replay as well. I know there's a ton of podcasts and a ton of content to watch. So, watch it on the replay, watch it live. I like you here live because I like the comments. You know what I'm saying? But, uh, if you got to catch it on the replay, you catch it on the replay. The content and the quality will still be there.

Uh, those of you local in Minnesota, it's not reptile related, but a lot of people ask me about it all the time. I got two gigs this week. Uh, Thursday night, I'll be playing at the Grand in Northfield. Super cool old venue, opera house from the late, uh, 1800s. It's no longer an opera house, but it's a cool, cool theater. I'm excited to play there. I'll be playing there on Thursday night with another local band called Lock Tune. I'll do a solo set and then, uh, I'll join Loctune on stage. Um, the whole show is three hours, 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. that night. And then, uh, a little bit north of where I am, but still south of the cities up in Egan, there's a pub called Egan Arms Pub. I'll be playing there from 5:30 to 8:30 on Saturday night. And that is the 31st. Yeah, must be. I think so. Anyhow, it's Saturday. So, this Thursday, uh, the Grand in Northfield and then Saturday, uh, Eganarms Pub in, um, in Egan, Minnesota, straight up 35 from me.

Uh, if you haven't checked it out, proper.com is up to date. Please check that out. I keep the full inventory there. Only some inventory is on morph market. Obviously, I'm not doing the whole inventory every time I go on Palm Street. Um, and but the full inventory is there. It's updatedproperroyals.com. And then, uh, guys, if you, I, I haven't pushed it lately and I don't really know why. I still believe I, I believe Patreons can be some, and I want to talk to Will about this too, but I believe Patreons can be one of the very, very best investments that any breeder makes, but particularly new breeders or people getting serious about breeding. You get to join this community and you get this big audience. So, whether I'm involved enough or or too much or not enough to what level I'm involved is far less important than what's going on in the community and those community conversations in Patreon. The business that gets done, the insight, the learning, all of that. Um, so anyhow, I hope you'll check out the Proper Royals, uh, Patreon, but join a Patreon. Go like, get into one because you're going to learn and so many opportunities come up from it. Um, mine starts at $7 a month and goes up from there. There's a $35 tier, um, which, um, that all converts to store credit. There's also a $100 tier, a one-on-one, um, basically a consulting tier, and that all converts to store credit as well. So, anyhow, I hope you'll check it out. If you have questions, you can always message me and, uh, I'll be happy to answer them.

Um, I can't believe it. It's been like, July would be two years since Will's been on the show and it doesn't seem like it's been that long. I still lived in Florida last time he was on the show. And, um, that's cool in a couple ways. One way that I'm still going two years later and, uh, actually, I had to look. I can't check the, I didn't check the date. I think May is was four years I've been doing Tuesday nights, uh, live. I know is when I started the channel, but I think I started the lives in May. Um, anyhow, so thanks for four years. But Will is back and I like I say, I learned a ton from him, um, on the last show. Um, an expression I use a lot and I, I try and always credit Will is, uh, he used the expression, "You can you can grow into business, you don't have to go into business." And I, I like that idea. Like, even going through my new, um, uh, renovations at the new facility, like I had this vision there just be like, one day this grand opening and I'm like, man, I'll never be done. I'll never be like, ready for like a grand opening. Like, I'm always going to be improving. There's always going to be another project, another efficiency, another aha. You just grow into it. You just get going and one day, boom, you're, you're in the middle of of doing business or in the middle of a new facility. So, I love that, um, mindset. Like I say, I learned a lot from that episode. Another thing when I talk about community, this is a recent story and, and, uh, I don't know if Will even remembers. Um, we were at Tinley and we were in the hotel lobby. This was, um, just in March and I say that I don't know if Will remembers because it was insignificant probably, but it was just something in passing. Uh, I was considering buying a ball python, but it was from a breeder that I wasn't all that familiar with. And that breeder is Mark Bailey. He's here in Minneapolis area. And I hadn't met him. And I've known the name and I know the mystique and the, um, importance that he has to the history of the industry. And so I was a little, you know, you don't just, you don't just charge into those relationships, you know. But anyway, I said, uh, I said, "Yeah, I'm looking at this snake from Mark Bailey, but I'm not sure." And Will, with no hesitation, he looked straight at me. He said, "Whatever the snake is, whatever the combination is, you won't find a better example than whatever you find from Mark Bailey." And that night, I bought that snake. I, I went back to the hotel room and I bought that snake. And even more important to the story is Mark and I struck up a pretty cool, uh, relationship. Um, so I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful for knowing Mark and I'm thankful for the encouragement from, uh, Will for instigating that. So, enough of me talking about him in the third person. Uh, please welcome back to the Proper Royal stage, uh, Will Morose.

Will, you, man? Not too much, man. Thanks for being here. I, uh, um, I appreciate you in, in many ways. So, it's cool to, uh, be able to hang out tonight, man.

Hell yeah, dude. It's always fun. I don't know if you did. You remember having that conversation about Mark with me? It, God, it had to be two in the morning, man. We were late.

Then definitely not, bro. Yeah. But, uh, but it's true. It's true. It's, uh, you know, Mark's a great guy. Mark's, you know, a very good friend of mine. Uh, a good friend of a lot of everybody. You know, he's just a, just a solid person all around. So, yeah. And great snakes. I have lots of snakes from Mark and, Yeah, I stand by it. Yeah, it's.

No, it was cool. Like, you know, when somebody says something and, and like they haven't even had time to think about if they're trying to like screw with you. It was just like, boom. You won't find a better one. Just do it. I was like, yeah, okay, man. Well, then I'm going to go for it. And, uh, Mark's been very gracious and he keeps up with me and, and, uh, which he doesn't have to do. He's got plenty to keep himself occupied. So, it's pretty cool. I appreciate it, man. What, what a wealth of knowledge, Mark. I mean, holy, you know, he'll call me like, "How's your season?" He's like, you know, cuz Mark, Mark always runs like, excuse me, like basically two months ahead of me. Okay. And so, he'll call me and say like, "I'm getting ovulations. That means yours are building. You're going to be two months later." And like every year it's the exact same thing. You know, he's two months ahead of me. Two years, two months later, then I'm calling him. Dude, I'm getting all these ovulations, you know?

Yeah. Uh, yeah, what a, what a great, great, great guy. No, he was cool. And he, uh, I learned, I don't know. I, you learn so much just spending time with people, even if it's only a couple hours, which these days is like a lifetime sometimes. Like sometimes people don't spend an hour or two with people. But yeah, I learned a lot. I've, uh, changed a couple things that I do. And then he encouraged me. We'll, we'll see how it goes. He gave me, he gave me the confidence to, uh, automate all of my rodent watering, which I've heard horror stories of, of floods and all of that, you know, so I have like these nightmares, but it's going great. There's not been a single issue, not a drip of water where it's not supposed to be. So, um, dude, like again, like a guy that you can take, like snake, like snake advice. I, you know, there, I can't think of someone better. Um, and then the, the rodent advice, you know, like he's got 30 years experience breeding rods at a commercial level. Like, just when it comes to the reptile industry, like he's, he's done it all. So, it's, you know, when Mark would, I, I kind of take what Mark says is gospel. He's like, "No, don't do that." I'm like, "Okay, never mind. I won't do that." You know, like it's been there, done that, and I, I trust his opinion, you know. So, yeah. Yeah.

Um, well, anyhow, uh, you likewise have been, uh, uh, like I say, inspiring to me. I see the animals that you work with and the, uh, that you produce. You've been generous with your time and then your, your insight is also like, there's no BS to what you, what you've shared and, uh, anyway, so I appreciate that. Um, what, uh, aside from, you know, life outside of snakes and geopolitics and, God, I bet Americans and Canadians, we could have a blast on a field day on that. What's changed? What do you see change over the past two years in our world of of snakes?

It's, um, I wish we, I wish I'd invited you back sooner. On the other hand, two years is a long span of time to look back. Two years like that, I remember. Yeah, right. Holy. Uh, what's changed? Oh boy. Oh boy. Lots has changed. Lots has changed. Um, panic has set into the market. That's kind of.

Has it set into you? No. Okay. All right. I don't know. This, this is like, you know, it, it's not there. Are there days where I'm like, God damn. Like, why are you selling that so cheap? Like, of course, who's not going to, who's not going to have those days? But at the end of the day, I look at this and I'm like, look, this is my full-time living. This is what I do for a living. What are my alternatives? If I want to quit doing this and say like, you know what, I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. What, what is my alternative right now? Like, I, I could go back to work, but I remember not liking that whole lot. You know, I remember that. So, yes, you're going to have your days where, you know, it's things don't go well or you don't get the sale you had hoped for or this or that, but all in all, this is still an incredible industry to be in. And I'm actually more excited than I've been in a long time. Uh, I think you're going to see a lot of people get out. I think you're gonna see a lot of, you know, breeders that jumped into this not, not necessarily for the wrong reasons. Um, but just, just like I think a lot of people jumped into this not really grasping the amount of work that come, that's involved with this and the amount of time that that needs to be involved with this. This isn't a three-year turnaround thing. This isn't like I buy my snakes from Justin and in three years I have a Porsche. Like, it's it's not, uh, it's not quite, you know, uh, it doesn't quite work that way. But, uh, I, I, I, I'm excited. I, I think there's a lot of positive to come. At the end of the day, the animals speak for themselves, you know, like cool animals will always sell. I don't care, you know, crazy animals will always sell for a lot of money, you know, it's just the way it goes. And I think what's happened is people are like, their perception of what's crazy. What was crazy in 2022 is no longer crazy in 2025. But I think a lot of people still have that like, but in 2022 this was $15,000. So it should still be an expensive snake. Well, no. The market moves pretty quickly. And with with shed testing and everybody implementing shed testing, it's, uh, it's, you know, things move quicker with with shed testing. And it's like, it's, it's an awesome thing. There's times I don't like it. There's things about it I'm not a huge fan of. And I've voiced my opinion on that many times. I remember that. But it is what it is. It's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. So use it or, or, you know, that's left behind. Yeah. Use it because it's there and, and, you know, what, it, uh, it is fun. It is, it is kind of fun. It's, you know, you hatch a clutch and like, oh, I hope this one's het clown or this one's double het. And then you get your shed testing back and it's almost like cutting the clutch all over again. You're like, I get nervous when I get the shed reg. I'm like, oh, I don't want to look at this.

Yeah. Charlie likes to do them live on the show with me. I'm like, "All right, come." Like, I have, I don't know. I probably, I'm looking at my fridge. I, I hang them on my fridge with these little magnet hooks. Like, I've probably got 20 sheds and I'm like, "I'm going to send it, but we're going to have to do an episode where he's like the, you know, the Maury Povich. This is a het. This is not the." Yeah. Gut-wrenching when they don't prove, but I know it is what it is. At least you don't spend three years raising them up like we used to.

That's true. And I mean, that's something you had talked about last time where, you know, the world just changed really, really fast for, for, for the breeders that have been doing that for a long time. Um, but so what's, I guess actually, and I kind of like your outlook like it doesn't matter if we feel like it's good or bad. It is and it's the world we live in so you got to deal with it. Yeah. Adapt or die basically. You know, it's, Yeah. It's like saying I don't like electric vehicles. Well, they're here. They're here. Yeah. [ __ ] mad, you know. It is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I.

So, I was going to ask, do you like it now? But actually, it doesn't matter. I guess it's, it's just, it's just another tool or something. If I could push a button today, like if I could just push this button and poof, it's gone and no one does it and no one, it's not. I'd push it. I'd push it. But I can't. And that's, it is what it is. Use it. I. Is that, did you see it as like, um, a strength like a, uh, like if you have space and you have facility and you have snakes and you don't have another full-time job to go to. I know snakes are plenty full-time job. Do you see, did you see that as like a leg up because without testing you needed to be able to hold back so many more. You had to take so many more risks over a longer period of time. So was the space and the volume a leg up for you?

Yeah. Yeah, when, when, when you're producing and, and I can't even speak to like higher production, you know, but when you're producing, you know, 70 clutches, I kind of do about between 60 and 80 clutches, I would say, on average. And, uh, even in those clutches alone, like I'm testing a lot out of them. Like a lot. Um, and so what I've found is stuff that, well, it goes both ways. It goes like stuff that I normally would have kept that I'm like, "Yeah, maybe I'll keep this and try and prove it out." Then those stuff I normally would have kept is stuff that I end up letting go. And stuff that I normally would have let go, I end up keeping because it ends up proving het. It's like, it's sort of flipped, right? Like sometimes normally if I hit a clown, 66 het desert ghost, 66 het pie, 66 het ananthanic, you know, I probably wouldn't have kept that female, but now I can test it and if it ends up being a double het or a triple het, then yeah, it's a pretty good female to keep. So, um, and, and you can start to breed with shed testing in mind now. Like, you can, my, it's completely changed the way that I even pair, right? Like, as I, as I start to approach the the pairing of this, of the season, it's, I, I'm doing things in a completely different way because I used to need the visual clown. Right. Now, I can use a wicked double het clown or triple het clown and go into, you know, if I can find a triple het, a really good combo triple het DG ananthanic clown or, what, whatever the project may be, and then run back into some really good DG clowns, well, now I can test out ananthanic. Right. Right. And just like, really, really quickly, um, advance things. So, uh, it, it's good. It has positives and negatives, but at the end of the day, it's here. It's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. You get used to it and it's a, like, basically I don't even like quit bitching about it. It's here. I need, I need to quit talking about it, you know? It's like, just use it. Yeah.

So, do you find yourself focusing more or breeding more on recessives? I, or I actually, I should back up. I'm assuming you use the shed testing primarily for recessives rather than? Okay. So, do you find yourself now, even whether you mean to or not, do you find yourself that you end up focusing more on double, triple, however many recessive projects that is the direction we were going before shed testing anyway, right? So, shed testing just kind of sped up what we were keeping, what we would let go of, like what, what would we hold back, what do we not hold back? So, that it just sped that thing up. But what I've, one of the things that I don't think enough people really grasp yet is recessives get easier and easier and easier the further along we go. This year it's hard to make a DG ananthanic clown pod. Next year it's 50% easier. The following year it's another 50% easier. The following year, now I'm hitting them at a one in four rate. You know, like, it, as you start to load up your double visual, double hets, and triple visual hets and, and start to like accumulate that stuff, hitting the quad or hitting the triple or the double or whatever becomes easier and easier and easier where, oddly enough, the stuff that has like fixed odds are your incomplete dominants.

That is funny, actually. I never thought of it that way. You're right. Words, right? That's the stuff that has your fixed odds because like you can do things to to make it a bit easier. You can use like, oh, I need a super red stripe to that'll throw all red stripe. It's a, it's a recessive at that point. Right. Exactly. But there are certain ones that it doesn't matter, like your, your combos and your stuff where it, it masks, like ivories is like, you know, it masks what's in it. So, you have to test a bunch of stuff to find out what's in it. Um, but like Pompei, right? If we use that specific set of genes, black pastel, spot nose, yellow belly, and red stripe, right? Only two of those genes have viable supers. I mean, super spotnose and super black pastel, like you don't really want them. Um, where ivory will mask super red stripes. You wouldn't know unless you shed test it anyway. So, there's no like real, like easy way to like stack an animal to make Pompei easier to make. That's like the ultimate beauty of of the Pompei, right? I mean, there's the visual, uh, Yeah, of all that stuff. Like, if you could draw a formula of how something will keep its value, it's the Pompei. You're not pumping out another one in a linear. It's hard to make, man. Like, that specific thing, like those, that's a four gene combo with clown on it. That becomes fairly, you got to take a bunch of shots to hit that, right? Whereas back in the day, like you, you would say like, "Oh my god, to hit a DG clown, like the odds are insane." Well, not anymore. I can make entire clutches of DG clowns. It's easy to make. I can't make entire clutches of Pompei. I can't make entire clutches of, uh, Krakens or whatever the, the combo that you're going to throw out there. Yeah, those type of things are what's going to maintain your value. And it's not going to be, I think we're going to drift away from just quad stacking, triple stacking, like just recessive, recessive, recessive. I think the market is going to get to that point where we hit that kind of like peak recessive hype and then it's going to taper back off and it's going to become the right recessive genes mixed with the right incomplete dominant genes. Not just incomplete dominance, like the right ones. Like, you, you start to get into like chocolate, spot nose, DG ananthanic clown combos. Those are going to be no-brainer fantastic, right? Super dark, super good contrast, black and white. Like, it's going to look bananas. The right genes are where your value is going to be in five years because everything else is going to continue. The recesses are just going to get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper every single year. We just need to hope for new recessives to come out, new combos to do something new. They just get easier and easier and easier to make as time goes on. But the Pompei stays the same. It doesn't get any easier. And then when we start to say like, "Oh, we want to make it DG and DG is an ananthanic." the odds go be, become absurd right now for now. But we will get to a point where making a Pompei DG Zanthic clown is the same odds as making a Pompei, right? Because we, because the recessives will be there visual to visual and this to that, you know, so it gets easier and easier. But those, those incomplete dominants are where your, uh, your, your value is going to be, which is so ironic because everybody rushed their recessives as your value hold. As soon as shed testing came out, all those recessives are incomplete dominants. They're just hidden behind a paywall. Like, I pay $50 and I know if it's het or not. You know, so realistically, that's just the truth. And I, I don't, now, I, I can treat Het Monsoon now like it's an Enchi. I can just pick Enchis out, but I can just pay $50 for the clutch and test them and know which ones are het monsoon. It works the exact same way as an Enchi would, right? 50% of them should be het monsoon, you know, yada yada yada. If you, if on both sides, 74% or 75%, one should be the visual. It's, you know, it's, uh, it becomes pretty straightforward. It's, uh, Yeah. Yeah.

That was a master class of like looking forward but also a simplification. We get so lost and it, it's zero copies, one copy, or two copies. That's it. And the scenario that goes with each one, and that's all that it is. And you're right, when I, why I chuckled when you said it's, it's just hidden behind a $50 paywall. Like, it's the simplest outlook, but it's the most accurate, uh, really way to put it as well. I saw, um, I've seen sort of a trend lately. And I can't say I haven't been at this long enough for this to to say that I've benefited or hurt from this trend because I just, I, it's not a sandbox level that I've been playing in, in, in the time that I've been around. Um, the breeder, like the breeder one visual had this possible this with like one really cool het combo. I feel like that demand had, and even just in the past 6 months to 12 months, it feels like that demand has dropped way off. I think, I think some of the other demands, and, and you probably have a better outlook on it than I do, but I, from what I hear and see other people doing and selling at the shows that I go to or talking on the show here or just going to shows that I'm not selling at. I, I know it seems so easy, but there's so much value in just a badass looking animal regardless of the other stuff. Like, yeah, I, I was funny you mentioned that because we were talking in the Patreon. I don't know, a couple months, maybe a month ago, and it, we were, we were talking like, do you think that the ball python industry will ever get to, I don't know what this is, but I call it the such and such, the Oreo or the whatever, and this is what it is. I don't know how I can recreate this, but look at this thing. Like, that is where I think we we could start to see things go. And, and it's gene-based, not lineage based like a lot of other species. Um, but I think there's, I think there's a a chance for the industry to have a bit of a, a shakeup again, you know. Um, Justin, during the, when I sort of, when I was getting in 2008 and 9, 10, 11, 12, you know, the industry was very KODM like driven. It was the right, the rest of success was buy the most expensive KODM, run it through your rack, kill that male because you bred them so freaking heavily and hatch out a gajillion bananas or a jillion ghilis or a jillion whatever and sell those all for $5,000 a piece. You know, that was the, like, recipe for success. And Justin turned that on its head, single-handedly, man. Like, there's no one that can convince me otherwise. He went out and said like, clown, clown, when, man, I remember like pastel clown, pastel lesser clown, and people saying like, clown's dead, man. Look at it. Pastel lesser clown, that's, well, that's basically what you can do with it. It's always a striped animal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know? And Justin went out and started working with clown and leopard clown, spotless clown, Batman's bliss and showed like the progression of what clown was capable of. And I think that is really what, like, again, I, Justin would be able to talk way better than this than I can. From my perspective, that is kind of what like propelled him, just like being different, like not following, going against the grain, you know, like that is what made Justin into Kenova, you know, like that is really where, because if Justin had of just said, I'm going to do the KODM thing, he'd probably be just like every other 18-year-old, 20-year-old breeder, you know, just like everybody else. Everyone doing the exact same thing. And I have really tried to take inspiration from that and be like, look, that is what made Justin JKR, like, that's what JKR, not again, not just that his work ethic, his videos, like his marketing, there's a lot more to it than just doing different [ __ ] right? But, uh, but the different thing was that main thing. Like, you could, Justin would put a combo out, you're, dude, people don't even have the heads for this yet. He's, he's, you know what I mean? Like, he's just like three, four, five years ahead of what, and he's seeing his vision out. And I've tried to model my collection not after Justin, but after that, like, kind of mindset where you, like, I try to do different stuff. Stuff people say all the time, why the [ __ ] are you pairing those together? Like, what are you doing with that? But man, I just like trying it and if it works, awesome. And if it doesn't, okay, I burned the clutch. No big deal. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I, I just think that there's, there's like, I think people need to try new stuff. I, I think, I, I look around the industry. Everyone's making the same [ __ ]. Everyone's heading the same direction. It's been like this for 10 years where just makes combo. Everyone goes for that combo. Not, not that that's a bad thing because generally they look [ __ ] awesome. Let's be serious. But I like seeing those guys that are like, "I'm gonna try something different. It might work. It might not." I would be willing to bet you Justin has way more misses than he does hits. Way more, way more snakes that he thought would look cool that, nah, that one didn't really pan out. We'll, we'll, we'll retweak it and try something else. You know, I'm sure there's way more of that stuff than there is the, the, like bangers, you know?

Of course. And I think actually, I know almost any successful person I've talked to since, yeah, you only hear about the amazing stuff or if you, if you hear about the ultimate failure, then of course, you know, if it's the, if, if it's the total destruction, of course, you hear about it. But yeah, we don't advertise that. We don't talk about, you know, even it wasn't like, "Hey Adam, why do you love restaurants?" "Oh, well, I love getting kicked in the nuts at two in the morning when I love scrubbing plates, man." Right. Yeah. It's just great. Yeah. And we don't talk about that, right? Like, we don't advertise. Like, I mean, I don't hide it, but I also like, I don't go run, make a YouTube video about it. If I hit something amazing, that's what I go make a YouTube video about. Um, yeah.

Do you think, um, to, to going back to some of, uh, you, like the theme of sort of a changing, how things are, a changing of, of, sort of a direction combined with so many people that we hear, uh, leaving now, a lot of the people we hear leaving, I think to your point, are they didn't realize how hard it was or they're blaming a, a tough market on the hard work they have to do or whatever it is. They're, they're the short-timers that, that, that that went on, my era, but I also see there's a lot of dudes that have been at it 10, 15, 20 years hanging it up for solid reasons. Hey, I want to be able to go to Tahiti for two weeks and not worry about animals while I'm there. Okay, that's a good. Yeah, wonderful. I get it. If, you know, you've made your money, you're happy, but that convergence seems like there'd be a massive opportunity in the form of less supply, less competition, and an opportunity to refocus, sort of the industry. Is that something you've seen or felt yet or not yet?

I think so. I think I, I've had the conversation with a bunch of, like, I would say smaller guys relatively, like under five years in the industry, type of thing. Um, and they get discouraged really easily. Like, really, really easily because it's like, yeah, you know, if someone's, if you spend $8,000 on your, your, your first, like, big male and then you see it three years later for two, you're like, what did I do? Like, am I the sucker that's left holding the bag? But I can promise you that the most money, if we're talking financial reasons only, right? The best return I've ever got on anything is always from that snake's grandbabies. The snake I invested that big money in, I'm not that worried about what he returns. I'm not worried about his offspring. His offspring are what I want to keep, right? That's why I bought the male. Yeah. I buy the male to start a project, to start an avenue, to to start a branch in your collection. And that's once those babies are of size and producing for you, now it's, it's like, okay, now it's time to, to, you know, pick the right fruit or whatever phrase you want to use. Um, it's a, it's a tough one, man. I, I, I think there's a huge opportunity for for some smaller guys to really jump ahead of this. Um, any business, there is like nine out of 10 are going to fail, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just, if you can, if you can be that one out of 10, man, if you can just be that one out of 10 where you're like, I'm going to stick this out. I'm not, like, I'm not taking no for an answer. Every business has to have that like, you know, you got to have a bit of that like dog. Like a bit of that like, I'm not going to fail. Like, I'm going to make this work. Times are going to get tough. Things are not going to go your way. The odds are going to be whatever. The market's going to do this. It's, there's so many excuses for you to hang it up. If it's not for you, take any one of those excuses and hang them up. You know, no one's going to be like, "Oh, it, it is what it is." Yeah. But if you have that like, I'm not letting this, like, I'm not taking this for an, for an, I'm not taking no for an answer, like, I'm making this work, dude. All the most successful business people in the world don't take it's like, how many times did those guys fail? How many times did those guys get kicked in the face? You know, like, all the time, but they just get back up and, okay, well, let's try it again. You know, and that's, that's, yeah, it's.

Uh, I, I, I think this is still a wildly lucrative business. I, I still. And like, this isn't the world that, that, well, maybe it is, but I, I don't, I mean, it's not the world that you're known for, but I still don't, I still am amazed when I hear like people like get down on somebody willing to sell bananas or or $250 to $500 snakes. And I'm like, do you know, do you know how many hours I worked in my life to make $500 before? Dude, lots of people, they work a full week, more. Two full weeks of work, American dollars, man. Like, it's unreal. And I, I'll go to like these shows and, and, and I don't know. I'm really thankful now. I feel like a good show for me on a Sunday afternoon, I'm doing, I did $1,800 bucks and I don't know. Somebody was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't get out of bed for that." I'm like, "Dude, you and I sleep in different beds then, man. I get out of that every day if I could. I would do that. Oh yeah, bro. 52 weekends a year. I would do that for that. So, like, absolutely. Maybe I just came from a different place. Uh, just different experience or maybe I just didn't get the the invite to the big money party. I don't know. But like, I'm pumped and I, I get like, like anybody, you could get down. I didn't close a sale today or this, this, you know, inquiry wasted a bunch of my time, blah, blah, blah, but then like, like nothing, somebody will be like, "Yeah, I'll take the $400 snake." No problem. And I'm like, God, do you know how hard I've worked in my life for $400 bucks? You know, like, so, yeah, dude, I'm really still excited and just in that matter, screw the 48, 12,000, I'll get there. I'll figure those out. Those are gravy on top. But yeah, like the, their, your bread and butter is going to be like, dude, dude, there are guys who make their entire living selling $300 snakes. $200 snakes. Yeah, that's.

Bro, if you can sell a couple $200 snakes, you know, let's say daily. Oh, bro, I like, I've had that. Let's be serious. You know, there's a buddy I have in Wisconsin, we talk every time we see each other, we say, "One $200 snake a day, man." And like, that, like, we'll be loading in and be like, "All you got to do is sell one every day if, if you, you just average one a day the whole year." And you're, you know, you're not gonna get filthy rich at that level, but you could survive, you know, dude.

100%. You keep the lights on, you keep the rep bill paid, you keep everything going, you know. 100%. 100%. I don't, I don't understand this. Like, I have heard people tell me, "Oh, I didn't get into this business to sell $500 snakes." I'm like, "Okay, then figure out how to sell the $5,000 snakes." Yeah. Right. But don't turn your nose up at the guys selling the $500 snakes because at the end of the day, not everybody comes from the same like, not at the end of the day, everyone's collection is going to be in a different spot. Everyone's going to have a different amount to get started. Everyone's going to have a different amount to, a different experience level, a different, uh, infrastructure level, like a different space requirements, the different [ __ ] going on in their life. So, I, I try not to judge the guys making, you know, you want to breed bananas to Enchis and sell banana Enchis or make entire clutches of banana pies. I personally don't do that, but I have no problem with anybody doing that. And in fact, it's a great way while you're doing all your holdback stuff and trying to build up all your stuff. A lot of that stuff is like not for sale, right? It's your, Yeah, you got to be your best customer. Hey, I have no issue with you saying, "I'm gonna breed a banana clown to a black pastel clown and just sell them all." Sure, go ahead. Yeah, it honestly, it's why I breed so many rodents. I breed way more rodents than I need. It keeps the lights on, keeps the reinvestment money coming in, and keeps me occupied while I, while I sit there with the comments are always great, while sit there for two or three years, uh, you know, trying to, uh, get where I want to, where I want to go to.

You brought up a good point earlier, too. Um, I don't know if you do this on purpose. There's a ton of themes of stoicism in what you're saying. What's my alternative? Uh, it doesn't matter if it's good or bad. It just is. Uh, you can't change this or that, you know, and I, I really relate to to the stoic outlook, but you mentioned earlier too, like, what's the alternative? Am I going to go back to? Am I going to go back to the thing that I was really good at that that made, I made everything in life I owe to restaurants, but I came to hate it and I wasn't in incredibly unhealthy place. I loved it for a long time, but I got to where I hated it. And I was so good at it, I never learned. There's nothing else. It's this or this is just fine for me for right now. You know, like that saying, like, I don't know if you're, if you're much of a golfer, but like, a bad day on the golf course beats a good day at work. Yeah. Exactly. You know, a bad day in the snake room, good day in the office. It just does. You know, there's just, I, I've had bad days in the snake room. I've gone in and a good clutch is slugged out or I've lost a female or like, just [ __ ] that happens, you know, and it's right, that sucks. No question. That sucks. That's a shitty day. But would you trade that in to? Would I trade that in to go back to sit in an office and punch in and sit in [ __ ] traffic on the way to work and blah? Dude, I remember all that. Oh, commuting. Throw it away. Get rid of it. And like my, my obviously I like, Dad is still fairly involved with everything. So, like, he keeps me pretty honest about it because I have my days where I [ __ ] and complain and, you know, and he'll be like, "All right, go ahead, man. Sell it. Get rid of everything." And I'm like, "Wait, what?" And he's like, "Yeah, but like once you do, like you got to figure out some go back to work or something." I was like, "Oh, no. [ __ ] that. I'm just complaining, man. I'm not actually." Yeah, I'm just bitching, man. I'm not actually. It's not that dispensing here. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just having a day. Let me go out and, you know, kick a.

Bucket around or something, but yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But, uh, it's it's not, you know, yes, sales are down. Yes, there's a a a quiet time in the market, but you know what this time reminds me of? This reminds me of that like 2014, 2015 kind of timeline. After about 2012, we had the big codom bust where all everything went down to what people were saying, the market is over. Dude, the market's been over since the day I started, and that was in 2008. So, you know, it it it's like everyone saying like the stock market's going to crash. You know, stock market's going to crash every [ __ ] year. The stock market's going to crash. And do you have drawbacks? Do you have crashes? Sure. But zoom out, bro. It's like, you know, 10% through recessions, through the Great Depression, through wars, everything. And the ball python industry is like that, too. Zoom out. Like when I started this, this was on forums. This was like I had to go to King Snake. It was like there it was difficult to do. I had to like email for availability lists, availab you know it. People don't understand that. People coming in now, all they know is co, right? That's all they know. Where be man, before it was not it it was not what everybody thinks we have today, like podcasts and everybody knows everybody and and all the and there's Morph Market and there's this and there's like and there's shipping worldwide and no, bro, that was not like this at all. So people don't realize how where it's come and that it's been in what, like 15 years. Give it another 15. Where are we there? Like, you know, so I just, yes, we're going to have peaks and we're going to have valleys, but if you zoom out and look at this on a long-term trajectory, it's going nowhere but up. People are going to tell you right now, market's dead, blah blah blah, overproduction, blah blah. Dude, I heard these exact same things in 2011 and '12 and '13 and '14 and '15. Like it just.

But you know what happened after 201, about I'm going to say like probably 2014, maybe 2013, someone came out and that was Justin and brought that excitement back. And there is a opportunity for someone to do that again. There's someone's gonna come out and be like, "Yo, I'm gonna I'm gonna like we're gonna change up the way that we do things and we're gonna go a different direction and this is what I'm gonna do. You guys can do it the old way. You guys can do it a different way, but this is what this is what's going to how I'm going to move things forward." And uh I think there's an opportunity for that to happen again. I'm not saying it's the next Justin. I'm just saying I think the market's just waiting for that excitement again. I was waiting for that like next like holy [ __ ] I'm excited and which way to turn where I'm feeling like again for a couple years, man. You know, it's been like I'm not I haven't been like super pumped. I've had a like a year or two of just kind of like restructuring, retooling things, making new hats. So nothing like wildly visual. And this coming season's like a very, very look like I mean, it has crazy good year. So like I'm excited. Yeah, it's it's market is waiting for a good stash. Yeah, let's go, bud. Yeah, Adam can grow a stash if I've ever seen one. Me, Adam, or Beach Bum. Beach Bum. Well, I can tell you can, too. I I got some. Yeah, we did a u uh You probably know uh Danny Roach at Portuguese. Oh, dude, that guy's got a caterpillar on him. So, for his year on uh 15 minutes of lame, I did a promo with him, but I I had grown a big beard from like September all the way. I mean, it just I could grow some hair and uh I did a reel where I just tried to have Danny's mustache. I'd shaved it just into Danny's mustache. Yeah. Turn around. Anyway, uh maybe it'll return. I I actually don't I'm good. I My facial hair when I work, I don't like sweaty facial hair. It's disgusting to say. I don't like when I sweat and I have facial hair. I had to get rid of it. So anyway, what um let's talk about some of the things that that you are working and and maybe even I'm curious to know about uh where your excitement's at on Puzzle. But when you talked about something new that's going to excite the market, something that people hadn't seen before, Puzzle kind of came to mind. There's some other, you know, there's potentially potentially, you know, there's Sunset out there, of course, there's Monsoon, there's, you know, who knows what's going on with this Tornado uh thing in the next five years. Honestly, man, go ahead. I don't even think it needs to be a specific combo or a gene or anything that needs to excite the market. I think it needs to be someone. Like, it needs to be a person that's like, I'm [ __ ] pumped about this. Let's get this going again. Everybody that's been dragging their feet, [ __ ] get your knees up. Let's go. We're going again. Or or stay back, stay back there because we're moving forward, you know? Right. [ __ ] it. Like, let's go. Let's let's let's make this fun again. Make ball pythons great again, you know? Here we go.

But no, I think you're right. And I think uh I I'm glad you clarified that it it's a person. It's at the end of the day, like all these businesses, all these interactions, it's it's the people that make it cool. Like the snakes are very, very cool, of course, but the people are like the the the the cherry on top, you know? I think that's really uh I think that's a good way to look at it. What um you talked last time that we talked that, you know, the the market had seemed to become just so uh focused or myopic on like Pides and clowns. And now I see, you know, not so much Pides, but I see, you know, clowns still kind of have this foothold. But then there there's just super cool things. And I think you're doing some amazing stuff with Puzzle. What gets you going on Puzzle? Where do you see that going, dude? I think Puzzle is like in its in its infancy still. I mean, people are still like people are already going like, "Oh, we got to go DJ Hypo Puzzle." Like, bro, I want to make like Drift a Hurricane Spotnose Puzzle. Like, you know, like, chill out. Don't get me wrong, I want to do the DJ. I'll do the DJ Hypo Puzzle, too. But like I said, those those recessives get easier and easier every year. They'll be there and they'll be there and they'll be easier to get and easier to do the incomplete dominance. The I'm looking. That's my focus with Puzzle right now is focusing on finding like that combo works, this combo doesn't. That one, okay, if I add Spotnose to this, wow, look at this one. You know, um, but but not just Puzzle, man. It's just like an like we're starting we're getting to this point in ball pythons now where absolutely everything has the potential to be insane looking like. And if we could just go back eight years, like eight years ago, we were like everybody was like stoked about just the DG Clown, right? And look how fast people are like, "Yeah, DG Clown. Yeah, I've seen that already. Yeah, I've seen those before. Yeah, sure." Because once you see it, it kind of like, Yeah. Okay. What's next? We We have this like in this industry is very uh flavor of the month. Like what's next? Oh, it's fickle, isn't it? Yeah. Forget stuff immediately. Which is why when I see a gene get hot, unless you've already got it and you're if you're trying to trend chase, unless you've already got it and are making them when it's hot, chill because it's in three years, you know, we'll be on to the next thing or the next cool thing. Um, but yeah, I to so to to circle back, like what's going to be cool? I don't know exactly what will be cool. Oh, I know. What excites you though? I don't expect you to. I'm not going to hold you to your crystal ball. Oh man, what gets you going, dude? Progression gets me excited. Seeing stuff like move forward. Um, you know, uh, it's there there's so much stuff that I want to see still. And and you could talk you'll talk to me in three years from now and I'll be even more excited. There's there's not many businesses where you get more excited the longer you you know. Now it's my females that I'm grow. I've I'm three or four gen in now. So it's like I produce the males. I produce the females. Now the collection's really starting to go a direction that like I see it going. Maybe is it the right call? Don't know, right? Who knows? We'll have to wait and see. But I'm sure you know even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while. So, got to hit something. If it's totally new, totally different, and you're thinking of pattern, color, and contrast, you're going to find the cool stuff. Something's got to be there, right? Something's going to be there. Yeah. Something's gonna do it. That's my belief. I mean, you have a lot more experience than I do, but that's really where I think like like I love walking through expos going, "What is that?" Like having no clue what it is. Yeah. And uh it's been a year now, but I was at the the the the Colorado ARP show, the first the very first one. And I walked by a booth. I had no idea what it was. I said that I said, "Is that the right right price?" It was $1,400 bucks. Nothing massive. He says, "Yeah." I said, "Is that Kodoms recessives? What is that?" And he said, "Actually, it's mostly just Kodoms." I said, "And it's a male." He said, "Yeah." I said, "I'll take it. I don't even want you don't even have to tell me." And of all things, it was Mcken. It was a McKenzie highway combo that just Oh, hell yeah. It just looked so cool. Different stuff. Yeah. And I guarantee people would go, "Why did you pay that for McKenzie?" And then you found out it wasn't even the same as Zebra. I didn't buy it because I thought it was Zebra. I thought I bought it because it stopped me in my tracks and inspired me, not only for what it is, but for what I think I can do for it. And then the mail just made it even better. I was like, "Well, give me that thing. Let's go." Yep. I think uh there's there's a lot of stuff that's going to do that. Like I I'm I'm very very excited with uh some of the Super Hurricane stuff coming up. Um I really like that combo. Like and then it's you can treat it like a recessive basically, right? Um I don't even have a clutch yet and I'm hyped up. I don't even have eggs down yet. So like guys are hatching eggs. I'm like, "Oh, come on. Let's go." But uh yeah, man. I think there's going to be some cool stuff. Tristripe is one that I like. That one's a mega wild card for me. Yeah. Um I've heard a lot of people, you know, it's just the same people over, oh, Tristripe Clown. Oh, it's not. It's a waste of time. Blah blah blah. Like, sure, it might be a waste of time for you, but have you put Hurricane and Spotnose and Confusion and Red Stripe and yada yada? Have you mixed that stuff in there? If not, let's wait and see how that goes. You know, let's let's get there. And if look, I'll be the guy to do it. I I have no problem doing it. That is like what excites me. That's the like, yeah, dude, what is this going to do? Like, I have no idea. Maybe it's complete dud. Maybe it's crazy. Don't know. But I'm That's where I'm headed. I'm I'm going to do like crazy Tristripe Clown combos and DJanthic Puzzles and DJ Hypo Puzzles, but when I get to those combos, they're going to be like the right jeans. Um, so those are those are some of the things I'm after this year. Um, yeah. I mean, just there just just so much, dude. So much. Some of the Hypo Clown stuff. I I I slept on Hypo Clown for a long, long time. I think people skipped over Hypo Clown way too fast, man. Yeah. Yeah. I slept on it for a long time. And about four years ago, I bought a really good Hypo Clown male, ran it into some good uh hat Clown females, made a good selection of Clown Hat Hypo girls, and like I bred them all this year. So, yeah. Oh, nice. There there's some good Hypo Clown stuff coming. Um, so DG I see Beastmore saying DG Tristripe. I agree. DJ Tristripe's insane. I'm shooting this year for a Super OD White Lace Tri-stripe. Let's see if we can get something like that going. Like what I I think White Lace again, everyone goes White Lace Clown, which obviously great direction, beautiful combos, but White Lace on in the other avenues is where I'm like, okay, I want to get into the White Lace Puzzle combos and Tristripe combos and uh you name it combos. Um this year will be the first year I get to breed any of the I don't know if you're familiar. I have a gene I guess uh called Chaos that I've been it popped up in my collection. It appears to be recessive. I don't know that for sure yet. It's either a very subtle super like an a subtle incomplete dominant that has a very visual super or recessive. But I mean at the same time, that's kind of it is what it is or two copies. Yeah. Exactly. Um, so I'm excited about that. This year will be the first year I I I'll have visual Chaos to what I have produced as heads and visual to visual. So, if I can get visual to visual and everything is visual and visual to head and half of them are visual, I know I know what we're working with, then you'll know. Yeah. Um, so that's one I'm pretty excited to see uh see happen. Uh, what else, dude? Just you name it, man. Oh, I know. The the possibilities are endless and Yeah. Yeah. This is probably a a whole different rabbit hole that maybe we don't need to go down into, but I I heard somebody say, and I've I've thought about it a lot, like if people just worked what was already in their collection, like the the the the possibilities are nearly endless just with that. Um, I mean, just the mathematical possibilities of of what's out there is incredible. We can never attain it all. We try and touch like everyone's everyone is a not everyone, but lots of people are a jack of all trades, master of none, right? It's like I do a little Ultramel Clown and I do a little Puzzle and I do a little Dreamsicle and I do like all these projects that don't like mesh, you know, where that's something I've been trying to focus on is like having, you know, DJ Isantic, DG Hypo, DG Tristype, DG Puzzle, uh, DG Clown, DG like Clown, DG and like they can all kind of like tie in together. Um, that's something that's I've been trying to focus on. It's hard cuz not everything works with each other, right? So, it's that's a little tricky, but uh, yeah, like dude, you could I'm convinced of it. I I've had people fight me on this, but I am fully convinced of it that you could say like, I'm going to be the Super Hurricane guy. I'm gonna work Super Hurricane and I'm gonna make all the cool Super Hurricane combos and I got Super Hurricane White Lace and Super Hurricane Super OD and Super Hurricane Spotnose OD Threadstripe and this and that and and you just show people what's possible with what you see, right? Where you could build in a fairly small collection. Like if you one rack, if you dedicated one rack to like Super Hurricane combos or Super Blackhead combos or Chocolate Spotnose combos or Super Pastel combos for [ __ ] sakes, if you wanted to do that, you know, anything you want if you use your vision and use what you think is going to happen, like, you know, take what you believe and manifest it, make it happen. Show people why they should be excited about what you're making. You're gonna do well, right? Like I take your challenge. I've started and I this five years I want us both to be sitting here again and I promise you now, I might fail at it, but I will succeed at being known as the Super Gravel guy. Hell yeah. All right, let's go. It'll be I might have Super Gravel aanthic clowns. I might have Super Gravel Ultramel Blackheads. Whatever it is, that's your theme. I could do every I could do all those cool things through Super Gravel and if I'm not inspired to put it in Super Gravel, then I'm not going to invest. Like that's become my north star because like you say, you just get lost in the mix and then all you're doing is competing with with everything else that's already there and then you get into this price drop thing. I want to be able to say this is what I'm known for and that's why I charge. Go find another one. Yeah. And it looks amazing. It checks my contrast, pattern, and color and I just want to figure out how to make it better. I know it it it fades out a little as time goes on. So, I want to figure out how to improve that, you know? Um, it excite that excites me and it was this real aha moment when that clicked where I was like, dude. And there's so many of those like it. You got Super Gravel, you got Super Hurt, Super Blackhead, White Lace, this that like there there's and and we haven't even touched on recessives, right? Right. We haven't even touched recessive yet. Yeah. Uh, so I I think you could start to work I I've said this before. You can start to work projects like their recessives, right? But their codoms or incomplete thumbs, right? Like a Super Hurricane White Lace could be your new Clown Pie. Yeah. It's a double super. It's mathematically exactly the same. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. And so now you can go like Spotnose Hurricane, Super Hurricane White Lace. Oh, okay. That's your Spotnose well Clown Pie or your enti Clown Pie. And you can just start to like slowly stack onto that base. And dude, there's an entire world out there of that stuff that no one's doing. Nobody's [ __ ] with it. The only guy that I can say like I can see that is what they're like focuses is Chris Hearnen. Great guy by the way. But he's like, "I'm gonna do like Super OD and like Scrambler and Enti and Calico and like [ __ ] go down that road." And dude, he's owning it. He's taking them and he's [ __ ] running with them. Good for him. I'm I'm I hope he does really well with the stuff. And you know his stuff when you see it, too. It's the brightest storm. Yeah. Second coming of Aussie, man. He's He's fant and further. Um, can't argue with results. No. And uh John Dave did it with Aanthic. I thought I thought it was great. I thought it was brilliant. Like at first I was like, how limiting? It's not limiting at all. You could do all that other stuff. You just got to do it under the umbrella of Aanthic. It's brilliant, man. I I loved it. Once it like once it clicked in my head, I said, "There's the path. People aren't doing it." And we've just scratched the surface of Super Gravel. Just scratched the surface of Super. We haven't done anything. We haven't done anything. The fact that people are like dropping their pants on all this stuff and they're like, "Oh, this project's done. This project's done." It just shows me how like inexperienced they are. When I hear that, I'm always like, "First time, huh?" You know, like it's a it's kind of like a, you know, when someone tells me that project's dead. Like so was so was every [ __ ] project that has been is is hot now. Clown Pie at one point was kind of like, "Yeah, whatever." Then it you put the right jeans and it holy [ __ ] DG Clown, I guess, was never dead because that's relatively new. But Hypo Clown, nobody was doing anything with it. Nobody. Still to this day, hardly anyone makes Hypo Clown. Good Hypo and cheese and this. Show me Super OD, Red Stripe, Hurricane, Spotnose Hypo Clowns. Like, get me that type of stuff. They're going to look insane, right? Like, we know that. So, why is no one doing that? I I think we know that a Super Hurricane Super OD is gonna look really good. Like I think we can all say that's going to look pretty good. Where are those? Hurricane's been around for how long? Show me one. Right. Right. And if you have one, okay, now show me two. Yeah. Show me a combo of it. Like they're not out there. Where the [ __ ] are these combos? Like make them people. Like let's do this, you know? Like we're we're all making the same [ __ ] Like let's somebody go do it. Let's go, man. I got like this is the best like uh uh this is the best pitch to join your Patreon. I was just about to say, man, I like I want to wake up like just with coffee with you every morning and we just get all riled up over what's got to get done and then we go do get this [ __ ] done. Let's go. Like I might just have to go do like I'd be a hypocrite now if I you know a guy that I gota I got to give a shout out to that is like sticking to his guns and going with it is Timmy but balls sorry bro whatever your butes reptiles but balls I think it is. Um dude the guy like he's like DG I'm taking DG I'm making DG clowns. I'm doing DG pides. Do DG clown pods. Like he's doing DG. Yeah. Like that's what he does, you know? Like it it's just and I respect the [ __ ] out of that because he's taking what he likes and he's going to show people why this is why I chose DG and bro he's making DG clowns and I'm like holy [ __ ] like the Batman DG Clown stuff that he made I was like god damn Timmy those are dope. Yeah well people saying DG Clown is dead. I'm like bro I bet you could have sold that 25 times like [ __ ] yeah I could have you know. Well, that your DJ clowns are dead. His aren't. You know, that's that same theme. Just sticking with something long enough, you're going to find what works. You're going to find the gems. You're going to find you're going to stumble through all the failures. Like, it's like people playing music or running restaurants or breeding snakes or having a podcast. Get out there and do it because you're going to figure out what works. And the stuff that doesn't work, you throw away. You don't throw away the animals. You know what I'm saying? You don't you Yeah. you don't uh you don't focus on that and then you highlight the stuff that does work and you keep recreating that that stuff and good for cycle of ball pythons, man, just finding what works, tweaking it a bit, making it a bit better every year, you can improve on it. Like I don't see a downside to this. And yes, it is discouraging, guys. Like I for sure it's discouraging when you see DG clowns go from 10 grand to two grand to $800. But $10 grand was insane. Yeah. So Jeremy's going to make us all Jeremy's big one upper from chill out though. Like relax. Okay. Big dog. No, Jeremy makes crazy [ __ ] too, man. Like Jeremy's actually the very first person I ever heard when I very first started. I met Jeremy and he's the first person I ever heard mention you. I was like he was like, "Oh, me and Will and RCR stuff." And I was like, "I don't know what any of that means." And he was like, and I remember to this day, he's the first person I heard about you from. Oh, Jeremy's a beauty. Yeah. And Genie, they're great. They are great. Um, yeah, like I I hope you hit that. I hope it's [ __ ] insane and I hope it opens an entire new direction for Clown Pie. Oh, an entire whole new world of Clown Pie for you because that's what we want and that's what really makes this industry move forward. That's where those aha things are. And I feel like there's like a there's the excitement to hit the double and then they hit the double and now it's hard to get to and then everybody goes, "Oh, that project's dead." Because now 99 people have hit the double, but nobody put the extra in it. Right. Yeah. And then it dips and then somebody does something like Jeremy's talking about or throws a cool gene into Clown Pie that suddenly extends some pattern or breaks through the pie or whatever it is and then it's exciting again. You know, it's all about improving, right? Like we we get the Clown Pie. Let's we can use Clown Pie as an example because it it's been I would say it's been hit fairly hard, right? So, we take a Clown Pie that was five or $6,000 and now it's $5 or $600 and people go, "Well, Clown Pie's dead." Well, I will happily pay Jeremy $6,000 for a Super OD Super Hurricane Clown Pipe all day. Like, let's do it. Jeremy, you want to deposit, bro? Pre-order right now. Let's go. Yeah. Bespoke pairing, bro. Like, that's what I want, you know? So, that's just tells me that Clown Pie's not dead, right? It just tells me that everyone's vision of Clown Pie might be dead. What I thought if if you thought I'm just going to make Orange Dream Yellow Belly Clown Pies and call it a day and buy a Porsche, you were you were mistaken, right? You're going to have to do a bit more leg work. You know, you you might have bought a Camry, but you didn't buy a Porsche with your OD hell belly Clown Pies. So, uh, and two chances on DG Tornadoes. Of course, he does. I'm going to just hang them up now. Um, but yeah, you know, like and there Ramry's, you know, there you go. Like, how many people are really focusing on a leic combos? Yeah, cuz they're not easy either. You got to have a copy on either side and a lot of them like this. You don't want to go like Spotnose Chocolate to Spotnose combos because half the snakes are like, you know, um, so you like you have to be like pretty selective and careful about how you breed those. Supers and ailic combos are the projects in the are the future. I agree. I agree. I I think we've had recessive glasses on for the last decade or more and maybe it's time to look at things with a different lens. I mean, let let's be serious. Everyone's kind of doing pretty similar stuff. Yeah. Um, go go go on Morph Market. There's a lot of the similar projects, similar, you know, but go on Morph Market and find me Triple H. Even triple hat DJanthic tries shouldn't be that hard to find. Trist stripes and DJ. Aanthic's been around forever. Where the [ __ ] are those hats, you know? Where are the sup the Hurricane Hat Trist stripes or the Lace Yellow Belly Spotnose Hat Puzzles or the like where are these combos? No one's doing them because everybody gets a Puzzle and they go I got to go DJ Hypo. I got to do that. Great. It's going to be an awesome project. But when I see the market just a visual going like this, I'm like, I'm going to buy from you guys and I'm going to go that way, you know, like and I I got to have all the [ __ ] you need to put into your projects. Otherwise, you're all going to have the same stuff, right? They're going to be the 99 that produce it. And I'm I think we've all been guilty of getting excited about about something and feeling that there's a wave and momentum. Yeah. Candy shop. Yeah. So easy, bro. I could go on Morph Market and spend 50K easily. Yeah. I don't even look, man. Like, if I don't have the money in my pocket, I don't if I don't know what I'm looking for, I just I And that's true. I just don't look unless I know what I'm after. Will, let me pay some bills real quick and then I want to talk to you. I want to switch from the animals to uh the people, the customers, where you're selling, how you're interacting with the customers. And uh I've always looked up to you on that angle, too. Your community is phenomenal. So, I want to dive in dive into that a little bit. Let's do it. I got like two minutes. I got to grab another beer. Oh, you got plenty. Yeah, you got two minutes. You're all good, man. Sounds good, guys. Uh, tonight's brought to you by, like I say, Palm Street. It's a live selling app. If you haven't checked it out, you should check it out. It doesn't cost you anything. If you want to apply to sell, there's a link down in the description. I ship with Redline Shipping. I think people know that. Uh I use Redline because of their customer service, their customer experience, their user interface and their industry uh knowledge, the institutional knowledge that they have with FedEx. Also uh they sell supplies and they have the live humans. You could call and get advice on how to ship, when to ship, what to ship with, all of that. So check out Redline Shipping. You can use the promo code proper five, get yourself five bucks off of, excuse me, your next shipping label. Uh shedesting.com. We were talking earlier. Uh you heard uh Will and I talking and Will's take on shedesting. It's It's part of the game now. You got to do it. Uh I like uh shedesting.com. That's Charlie Williams. Charlie is developing his tests. He's researching new tests. He is the guy doing the tests and he's the customer service. He's all of it. I actually don't know how he pulls it all off, but he does an amazing job at it. If you have any questions, you can talk to Charlie directly. Otherwise, you could go go to shedtestingesting.com, order your sheds. Uh, currently there's about 40 uh jeans available, but the newest release is lacemonarch hurricane. And I just saw a thumbnail that said that the monsoon test is here. Um, I just realized starts monarch and monsoon. I should uh I should clarify that for myself. Lace Monarch and Hurricane are out monsoon. Uh, I just saw a thumbnail post on Instagram that it's coming. Uh, VPIanthic, Wookie, Sunset, Clown Puzzle, Ultrammell Zebra, uh, lots more the full yellow belly complex. And if you have questions for Charlie on upcoming genes, you can always ask him on that and you can ask him where he's at in the uh, beta testing as well. You might uh, he might test the shed for you just to see uh, if his data lines up with what you think it is or what it might be. Use a promo code proper 15. Get yourself uh, 15% off of two orders. You can order as many individual shed tests as you like per order. Uh, Portuguese pythons is Danny and Renee Roachcha on Chino, California. Um, their work in both the Ultrammell project, but also just dark jeans in general has been fantastic. My Ultraml Pi project ingredients all come from them. And uh, actually, I'll start the first ones I've gotten from them are uh, going to Lelay this year. So, I'm excited for that. They're working Ultra Male with Puzzle, Ultramal with Clown, Ultramal with Pied, um, Hypo uh, Clown and True Ghost projects as well. Uh, those project ingredients are on their morph market now. Fantastic people to work with. Danny shaved his mustache. I can't even like promo his mustache anymore, but that he could grow it back pretty quick, I'm sure. Uh, check them out. Trevor at Ball Labs is in Aurora, Colorado. Uh maybe opposite of what Will and I may have been talking about. Uh Trevor likes to be the man with a hundred jeans. He likes to work forgotten jeans that haven't been touched. As Will says, "Where are all these combos?" Trevor's out to find them. He's a great guy to work with. I've gotten to work with him uh several times now out in Colorado at the ARP shows and he's been a good member of the uh Patreon community as well. He's also one of the few licensed rodent breeders in Colorado. He's doing that the right way and I don't think that uh those things stop. I think that habits transcend areas and if he's doing that with his rodents, I know he's doing a great job with his snakes. Check out Ball Labs again. That's Trevor in Aurora, Colorado. He is working Puzzle, Ultra Clown, VPI, Zanthic, Tristripe, Monsoon, Zebra, and Sunset. Uh last but not least is Chris at BNS Reptilia. He's called reptilia because he uh has ball pythons, blood pythons, locality boas, colubrids of all shapes and sizes, pituous if that means anything to you, the bulls and the pines. He will help you with all of that. He's educated on all of it and he'll make sure that wherever you're at, uh, you're doing things the right way from a legal standpoint with some of those snakes as well. Get in touch with Chris. He's the original sponsor of Proper Royals. I'm so thankful that he's still here. He's my business partner at Tinley. And we do have a couple investment animals together. Somehow I was about to forget Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. Uh that's Charlie Ryan in uh New Jersey. If you haven't seen his latest uh reels, they're fantastic. They're entertaining. He's doing the uh things you can say about your ball python but not about your wife series. I'll leave it there, but go check out Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. He's working Krypton's, DG, G-stripe, Candy Pides, and Clowns all overlapping much in the way that uh Will and I were discussing. Uh singles, doubles, triples, and I think even some quad ingredients with great kodoms in there as well. Um they're not officially a sponsor on this particular show, but somebody who's always looked out for proper royals is cold blooded cafe. My promo code, which is proper proper 11, now gets you free shipping on any order two over $200 forever. Used to be a onetime code. Used to be for a percentage off. Now you spend 200 bucks, you get free shipping from Cold Blood Cafe every time. So go try that out. Uh proper 11 gets you there. Thank you to the audience most importantly and thank you to Will tonight hanging out with Will Morose. Um, well, your uh Patreon I think is I'm not just saying this because you're here. It's it's certainly held in in the top top echelon of of the esteem of the community. And maybe like the difference in your Patreon is that like a lot of people say that they're members in other Patreons because, you know, they get a a discount or a deal, but people are in yours that it's like a it's like a damn lifestyle. Like that's what they talk about. Like there's a hashtag, it's in all their posts, you know, dude, it's it's not a thing without them, right? So, it's like it's a community, it's a group, it's a we our RCR mafia, RCR family, you know, like it's the it's just fun like and that no one takes themselves too seriously. Everyone's kind of joking with each other. Uh we've had a couple episodes where people took a little Hey man, when you put too many people in a group, it's gonna happen. It does happen. there for, right? A little refereeing. It's uh No, dude. I I straight up I said to both of them, I was like, "You guys can both leave. I don't care." Like, if we're I'm not going to police grown ass men, man. You guys can't get along in a group chat. [ __ ] off. You know, like realistically. Uh but but to be honest, it's a it's it's great. It's I I really enjoy it. You know, I some days I'm way more active than others. Every some months I'm way more active than others. The last month I've barely posted because I don't have that much going on. Yeah. Like it's been quiet. It's a quiet time of year. I'm waiting for eggs. I'm watching everybody else hatch their freaking eggs, right? And everyone in the morning is ripping on me for like I'm going to have more eggs than Will this year. I was like, "Oh, come on." You know, like I it's so it it's just a fun group. Everyone seems to get along pretty well. Lots of people have different opinions, but that's what makes it. Um, Yeah. I just I I I'm I'm glad that people, you know, hold it to a high regard. Nobody takes themselves too seriously and it's just uh that's just the way it kind of like me, you know. It's just it's not that serious. It just stakes. What was your what was your inspiration to start it? Because it uh I in transparency I have a Patreon as well. So, but it takes a certain amount of like dude self-confidence if not a little bit of ego to be like I'll start one right I'll teach you all everything right no no it was a mixture of things the the way we all communicated with each other was through Facebook and Instagram and it was like I would be talking to this person but I'd also talk to this person and I'm also talking I have a thousand [ __ ] Instagram messages or a thousand Facebook messages just discombobulated. It was always like but to have everything in one place on a Discord. And so I was kind of like I like it. I don't want to I didn't do the tier thing. I was just like look I don't want to have to make content for different tiers and different this and you know I don't want to have some people treated differently. Everyone's the same. Everyone is you know equal the way this industry should be. And regardless of how crazy your collection is or if you just have a a pet pi, it it's, you know, you're you're a reptile keeper. Like, come on in. You know, it's uh it's just it's just going to it's just a spot to hang out, have fun. There's lots of like threads about, you know, rodent tips and this and that and um, you know, stuff that I don't know [ __ ] all about. You know, like some guy's talking about, oh, I'm thinking about getting some colubrids. Well, then some colubrid guys pipe up. You're like, "Well, I kept this species and this species and everyone just kind of helps each other. It's I Yeah, there's a lot of times where I don't even have to answer questions, right? Matt from KMBB is answering questions or Corey Dong is hopping in with his experience and hey, this is what I would do blah blah." You know, like that is that that's the community aspect and that's really what I guess we've tried to foster. And it's just it's it's honestly we don't I don't promote it. I don't post about it. I don't it's just completely been word of mouth and it just started and just built and built and built and built and it's just been organic completely organic. Everybody else talks about it but I I was going to say anything about it. So it's uh it's you it you've done something right and and I know that everybody throws around the word community but I've almost I'm really close I mean I've always been a numbers and a spreadsheet guy and a margins and what are my cost of goods? I mean, because that's the world you live in in restaurants, but really I've started to decide that any business can be like focused on a building a community. And if you build in a community, you get such a safety net and such a loyalty and such um it's got to be legitimate and genuine, but it it's such a it's such a better business model than how can I do this a little bit cheaper? How can I do it a penny less than the guy down the street? Like, it's so much more inspired, too, you know? Yeah. I don't really focus on cost cutting very much. It's not really like there's obviously if I can get a better deal on deli cups, I'll take it, you know, but like but when it comes to the like to people, this industry as much as it's snakes, it's people like it's it's truly it's relationships. It's who it's not a lot of it's not what you know, but it's who you know, you know, like in in life in general. It's like That's right. And uh like I I got to say like the majority of my purchases over the last three years have been through that group. Yeah. You know, majority of my sales for the last three years have been through that group. Like I I don't really use Morph Market much. Even in this market where people say it's dead, you know, guys in the Patreon want to work this specific project and you know, I I'm looking for this and obviously they get a good deal on stuff and such and but like there's there's times where I like I have an extra mail and like, hey man, I I'm interested in this blah. I'm like, "Dude, I'm just gonna send you this mail and if it does something really cool, like remember me, you know, like but I don't I don't want to charge you for it, but just like I'll send it in the next shipment out and breed it, see what happens, and you know, we'll go from there." Yeah. But that's you know, we I've done trades with guys on the the Patreon. Uh, you know, it it's just become a like I I I I want to say it's like a safety net, not just for me, but for the people in it, too, where they I can't speak for them cuz I don't know for sure, but it feels like it's like a safety net for the people that are in there where they like they get they get to build relationships. If you're a new person, dude, it's hard to be out here like you you find your little click and that's Dude, I really really like advise people to like yes, get your close little group of friends, but don't click up like that because it doesn't really help you long term. If you're clicked up and you have that one guy in the group, it's like, "No, that guy, I don't like him. He he you know you get that kind of like it's us versus them where like unless someone has [ __ ] me over or someone I know personally like and I know for sure and you know it happened that's exactly not to chatter but you know it happened right exactly if I if that happens then yeah I you know maybe I'm not going to buy a snake from them or what such and such but you know people people say like on the patron all the time hey got this snake in um heads up this one was a little bit tiny probably probably things are fine, but just giving you as a warning and or this person sent me a snake, dude. This was a wicked experience. Uh, one of the jeans didn't prove out for me, but this guy hooked it up and everything was fine anyway. You know, like that sort of stuff goes a long way in a word of mouth community, right? So, that's uh Yeah. And and I don't know if what we're doing differently than anybody else, but it's just the people. That's really all it comes down to. It's not me, it's the people in it. I think you've set the standard and I could see it just in I mean tonight your enthusiasm, your passion, but also your authenticity and I don't mean this in a negative way. Your simplistic way of breaking things down, man, it becomes consumable. Like let's not get ahead of ourselves. That's like like at the end of the day, you got a set of of some jeans, you got some animals. Let's put them together and and chase a dream here. I mean, that it doesn't that complicated. Porsches for everybody, man. Not everybody gets Porsches. That's right. We all then it's all beautiful. Yeah. Um, well, speaking of uh take a moment, Will, where can people find you if they're not familiar with you? How do they get in touch with you? How do they see your inventory? Where do you sell? How how do people give you money? Uh, any way you want, man. I'll take any any way you want to give me money, I'll take it. Strap it into a pin, right? Yeah. Yeah. No.

Um, for Facebook, Instagram are going to be your big ones. And then obviously Patreon is going to be like if you want to be a little more like behind the scenes, community based.

Um, for lists of stuff, uh, I let Patreon comb through everything first. They get absolute first crack at everything. And uh, it's hard to give me money. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, so I, I let Patreon comb through everything first. A lot of it is, uh, like the, I would say the majority of the sales are this per, I know this person's after this specific combo, or I know that this, and then I'll, when I hatch one, I'll reach out. "Hey bro, just letting you know I did hit one of these. I am going to let one go. Are you interested?" Generally, they take it because it's something they need. I learn people's collections. I learn what my customers are working on. I understand. I kind of keep a tally of like, "Hey, this person's really looking for a lace puzzle combo," or "this person's really looking for this combo." And if I can supply that to those people, great. Everybody's happy. So, that's sort of how it works.

And then obviously a lot of stuff goes overseas. If, once Patreon is combed through everything and pretty much decided they don't want anything anymore, um, then I'll send the list overseas. It gets combed off and then afterwards I put stuff on Morph Market. Gotcha. Uh, I don't want to, man, I could start a whole new episode on, on, uh, the overseas stuff. Do you, is there, you, is there essentially a broker or a distributor that you use? Customer who distributes for me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. I, I'll ask you questions for hours if I, Yeah. So, so they buy, they send them a list, they buy a big group and then they sell, right? Got to Korea or Japan or wherever they're selling to.

Man, that's the other, like we talked about the genes being untapped. There's nine billion freaking people in the world. We're pretty untapped everywhere. Like, Oh yeah. You know what I mean? Like, like there's like one that people, like obviously China, if that opened up. Yeah. You think CO was crazy? Yeah, it'd be insane. Uh, India, oddly enough, is a, is a spot that's, I think is going to be a big one. Um, it's, it's a giant population and of the like new millionaires, India is the fastest growing. Really interesting metric. Okay. Yeah. Not that all the millionaires are buying snakes. Normal people buy snakes, too, right? Like, it's, it's not just that, but, but yeah, I think India has potential to be a very big spot. Um, obviously if China ever, if mainland China ever just said like, "Yeah, send them in," you know, that would be huge. Uh, I think South America has a chance to to really take off, you know, um, Brazil, those type of places.

Um, I mean, at the end of the day, there's just, there's markets out there that we, we all operate in a little bubble. We're like, we're like, "I go to Tinley and only if, if it didn't sell at Tinley, nobody wanted it." You're like, "I put it on Morph Market, nobody wanted it." It's, dude, the people, like, not, not I'm not throwing shade at Morph Market. Best, best website out there, right? But Morph Market still has a very limited view of the world, right? Oh, good god, dude. Like, how many people do you think walk into a pet store that buy a ball python know what Morph Market is? None. Like, 1%. If that, if that. Right. So I think we need to start to like try and grow that side of the business. There's, you know, there are there are collections in the US, multiple collections in the US that are producing 2,500 clutches a season. Where are those snakes going? Of all the pet areas everywhere, man. They're all at every season they're making that many clutches. I make 70 and people are like, "You produce a lot." Like, dude, I produce nothing. Nothing. Walk-in trailers of incubators, not not just an incubator closet or incubator the size of my building. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. They're out there, man. You know, those collections exist.

And so, so you know, like the industry is just way bigger than people give it credit for and ball pythons are king in that industry. You know, I, I know there's a, you know, the condos are getting hot and lizards are are hyped up and different colubrids and don't get me wrong, all amazing animals, like a wicked species and the people that keep them, they're, they're challenging to breed, they're challenging to work. There's a whole set of different challenges with that stuff. But ball pythons are king. Truly undefeated. Yeah. And, and never will be touched. Never. You can show me all these other cool animals. All these other, dude, you an OD yellow belly pide smokes, all that [ __ ] to most people. All that [ __ ] You know, it just does. It just, it just does. And it's not just the the the like visual look, it's the creativity and the like, "Oh wow, if I take this and I put this, I can make something that looks like that." And it's that like that like creativ creative aspect and the the whole, you know, that that feel. All those, yeah. All those points intersect. It's the, it's the pet. It's the dreamer breeder. It's the massive factory breeder. It's, it's any, it does it all. It checks every, every box.

If you're looking for like an engaging snake that's like a little more challenging to keep and, okay, okay, sure. Go get yourself a, a KBO or whatever, whatever you you want to keep. But if you are looking for a snake that anyone can pick up, anyone can hold, anyone can work with, makes a great pet, is not hard to keep, maintenance requirements are very low. Uh, they come in a bajillion friaking colors. You can make new combinations that we've never even seen before in the history of the universe have never existed. You can make, name, yeah. Name me another [ __ ] species that does that. Like you got your boas and your col, some of the colubrids. Hognose, but dude, not to not to the extent of ball pythons, man. Not to the extent. Ball pythons hold this industry up. Straight up. You don't have to convince me. I, I, I get that promoters want to have a variety, but look what's walking out the door. Look what, go, just go to a, go to a US ARC auction. Yeah. And what is the percentage of what they earn or what they like is donated come from ball python sales? Oh, it's a lot. Yeah, it's massive. Yeah, a lot of it.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, there's like, you know, Timberline makes a good bajillion bucks making crickets and, you know, there there is entire, this is how you know that this industry is a real thing when there are, you have your ball python businesses, you have your cricket businesses, you have this, but now you also have caging businesses and this businesses and there are businesses upon business like offshoots. That tells me the industry is like expanding, growing, getting bigger. It's, I mean, yeah, dude. It's there. Find me another reptile that can hang with the ball pythons, bro. They can't. They can't. And I like all these other reptiles. I would love to find one that I'm like, "Dude, this thing is like," Are there reptiles that are like more engaging to keep? Yes, I have a red tail rat snake. Super awesome snake that keeps you on your toes. Wants to [ __ ] you up all the time. But, but do I want to keep 200 of those? No. Not a chance. Not a [ __ ] chance, you know? But I do wanna, I do want to like breed ball pythons and, you know, they try new colors and find new combinations and this and that. Dude, you can't find, you can't find another species that's like that. No, they don't exist.

And what other species are you going to put in a kid's hand and be like, like start, start that fascination again? You know, start that whole cycle with kids over again. You know, you put a pi in like a five-year-old's hand, they're like, "Wow." Yeah. Where the rest of it goes. Yeah. What is that? You know? Yep. Well, I got to wrap it up for the night. I got go be dad and a husband for a little bit. But, man, I enjoy you being on the show. I thank you so much. You're generous with your time. And uh, not to push things, but I hope we get to do this sooner than two years, but not too soon so that we can uh refuel and all that. But you're welcome anytime, man. Hit me up anytime, bro. Let's do it. Thank you so so much, Will. I appreciate it. Audience, uh, I hope that you, uh, I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you've watched this far, take the time to uh, like and subscribe and uh, maybe even share this episode. There's a ton of, I had a blast. I could keep going for another hour and a half easily. Uh, next week, Garrick Deire. Uh, same place, same time. We'll hang out for, uh, just a second, man, before, Dude, ask Garrick about those, uh, Calico Lavenders, bro. Okay. All right. I will. Yeah, I got it on the agenda. If it's got your attention, it's definitely on the agenda. Yeah, they're nice. All right, guys. See you next week. Will stick around. Just a second. Yeah. Heat. [Music]