Singing Voice Specialist: Controversies and Collaboration - NATS Chat April 2022

Welcome everyone to the April 2022 NATS Chat. I'm Kari Reagan, moderator of NATS Chats, which are sponsored by Inside View Press and tonight co-sponsored by The Voice Foundation. So thank you, Voice Foundation, of which Peggy is also a representative of tonight, as she has co-moderated with me in the past as their representative.

I am so thrilled tonight to discuss this topic, which is near and dear to my heart: Singing Voice Specialist, Controversies, and Collaboration. And I am equally thrilled to be joined by my esteemed guests, colleagues, and friends: Peggy Broody, Marcy Rosenberg, and Lita Scarce. Thank you for joining me, ladies.

Happy to be here. Thank you for inviting us.

So, the four of us have had many wonderful conversations this week, and we are so eager to have this collaborative, uh, and authentic conversation about what can be a difficult subject tonight. But we want to begin by sharing a little bit of the "beyond the bio" – how we all came to do this important work that we are doing. And what I think is so interesting is that we each represent a different model. So, uh, Peggy, would you like to lead us off tonight and share a little bit about your journey?

Sure, I'd be happy to. Um, I was a singer and voice teacher, and I was in my mid-thirties. And Dr. Satelloff, Bob Satelloff, was my personal voice doctor at that time in my life. I thought to myself, you know, I, this business of working with injured voices is really interesting. And I went to Bob and I said, "How do you, how do you learn how to do that?" And he said, "The first thing you need to do is to attend the Voice Foundation Symposium," which was in New York at the time. That's how long ago this was. So I went to my first Voice Foundation Symposium, where I was exposed to, um, voice science and voice research and concepts, which suddenly made clear to me many of the pedagogic concepts that I had learned through the years. And I was very excited. And I was very excited about the medical part of it. So I went back to Bob and I said, "I'm really thrilled by this and I'm very interested. I didn't understand half of what I heard, but I'd like to learn more." I was very fortunate in that Bob took me under his wing and sort of informally trained me and gave me the knowledge that I needed to do this work. I eventually went to work for him full-time. I was his voice, one of his voice clinicians for 29 years until 2019, and I still receive, excuse me, patients from him and other specialized laryngologists. So my model was one of sort of, "Piece together what you need to know about working with the injured voice." And I hope we'll talk more about that as we go, uh, later on. I'll, we'll touch on that.

And Peggy, just for clarification, in this model conversation, you received a salary directly from Dr. Satelloff?

I did, actually. At some point after, uh, sort of working with Bob in training under him, he offered me a position in the office. And it was a full-time salary position. And so that is what I took. And it's, that's a little unusual, and I'm sure we'll get to this subject later on. But, um, in any private practice or university-sponsored practice, back practice, normally the voice clinicians are going to be someone who's licensed and certified so that they can bill for insurance. In my case, I was not. And it was only through the force of Bob's personality that people were willing to pay out of pocket for the singing voice work. And, uh, it ended up being a good thing.

Wonderful. And we will delve into that little rabbit hole more. Marcy, would you share a bit about your journey to this work?

Absolutely. So, not surprisingly, a slightly different path, which I suspect will be a theme among the four of us. So when I was at Peabody Conservatory doing my undergrad in voice, in my year, a couple of things happened at the same time. The first was that my voice teacher, Ruth Tucker, got me to sign up to be a normal volunteer for a study that a pathologist, I think it was Sandy Bishop, and the laryngologist whose name I can't remember, we're doing a study. So I got to go and have a scope. And at the same time, I was taking a vocal pedagogy course also. And so I was totally just drawn to all of the scientific aspects of voice and voice production. And as a younger singer, I would go to my teachers with questions like, "How come when I'm singing like in my head register on an E vowel on an F sharp, I notice this, but if I switch to a different note or a different vowel?" So I went with really very specific questions. And a lot of my earlier voice teachers weren't sure what to do with me. But, um, when I saw that scope, that there was a job called a speech pathologist who worked with voice disorders and singers, I thought, "I am, that is what I am doing." And literally within, you know, a month, I had enrolled, you know, at Towson State to start my second bachelor's degree in speech pathology. So I went in only wanting really to do voice and voice disorders. I was very lucky to fall into the job that I still have 20 years later, um, right out of grad school, because of my background at the time, which was more unique than it is now. It's not as unique to have a dual background. And I've been at Michigan Medicine at the Vocal Health Center ever since, where I'm in a multidisciplinary clinic, co-located with Freda Herseth and Mel Racine, who are with us as part of our voice care team on Wednesdays, where we see multidisciplinary voice. And they are, um, voice professors, so they are not speech pathologists. And we are co-located under one roof on Wednesdays. And, um, and we see all sorts of different kinds of patients.

So wonderful. And I'd like to leave your bio too, Kari. I know you don't normally, because you're this, but I'm, I think that it's appropriate for this that you also share with us your path.

Thank you, Marcy. We'll have Lita go, and then I'll, I'll take it from there.

Thank you. Thanks for asking. Yes, thank you. Yeah, I just want to start out by saying thank you, Kari, for your, your leadership on the NATS Chats and for initiating this discussion, um, and for the work that you've done over so many years in in this area. And I just, I feel really honored to be among this esteemed and august body of professionals here this evening. Um, yes, slightly different path, and I think that's an important thing to underscore in our discussion tonight, that there are, there are many paths to this work. Uh, like Peggy, I started out as a professional singer and singing teacher. I did my, uh, bachelor's and master's degree in voice at Indiana University and went on to sing professionally, opera, concert, recital, and, and I taught voice as an adjunct at several colleges and universities for about 14 years. Uh, and I kind of came to a point where I was sort of exploring, um, doing some different things and discovered, like Marcy, that there was, that this was a part of being a speech pathologist. And so decided to, to seek a second master's degree in speech pathology. And I did my prereqs at University of North Texas and then did my master's degree in speech pathology at Boston University, doing an internship in professional voice at the Mass Eye and Ear Infirmary, which at that time was when Dr. Steve Cytels was there. And when I finished that degree, I just had the tremendous good fortune, um, to be, um, invited to, to Duke for my first speech pathology position. And, and from there was asked to collaborate with some of my ENT colleagues to create a voice center, a designated voice center there. And that's where I've been ever since for the last 16 years. And our model is that the folks in our clinic who work with singers, we require that they have a background in and experience as singing teachers and as professional performers, in addition to being speech pathologists.

Wonderful. Well, so, um, yes, if you, as you guys have all said, we each had our own paths. I am probably more representative of the typical voice teacher who has to find their own way into this, their own training, uh, through collaboration and luck. For me, I had a master's from Indiana University and had just moved home from living abroad for three years. And I had been teaching voice since I was 19 years old, so a full-time level. So I've taught probably 35 to 40 hours a week for nearly 40 years now. And I, uh, had a student who, I just heard something in their speaking voice. I knew nothing about laryngology. I mean, this was 20 years ago now, so it was a newer field, anyway, that field of laryngology. And, um, I thought, "Gosh, I just wonder what's going on." And I happen to have had a student, a family whose father was an ENT, back then ENT designated voice specialist. I don't even know if he designated himself that, but he was the person in town. And I had his daughters every four years. And so I thought, "Gosh, I bet he would know something about this." So I sent her. And I was so lucky because Marty Nevdal, who's a great speech-language pathologist and ran the University of Washington Speech and Hearing Clinic until just a few years ago, happened to be there. And I remember getting a phone call or an email from him to discuss the singer. And I just was blown away by the language, by his generosity, but the language he used, um, the anatomy and physiology, and I, you know, it was just a whole new world. Um, and it was really his generosity that lured me in. And I always say, and Marty knows this, I blame him for putting me on the, on the world of singing by specialty. I blame him. So from there, he invited me to come and observe. And this collaboration with him started. Dr. Moradi eventually moved to the University of Washington and has developed this phenomenal team of clinicians that I collaborate with. And simultaneously, I was getting my doctorate at the University of Washington. But I will tell you, at my doctor, in my doctoral degree program, I was not required to take a PED class. So my last PED class was at, um, at Indiana, with Roy Samuelson. Lita, I bet you took it with Roy as well. We used the Appleman book, which was Barry Dunn's. [Laughter] No wonder I wasn't interested in it back then. I mean, it's a wonderful book, right? But for, uh, uh, you know, somebody who is an aspiring opera singer that who needs to know anatomy and physiology, I had no interest in that, right? That's what the great irony of my life. Anyway, so that's how the collaboration for me started. And from there, I really was scrappy and went out and got my own training as much as I could. And eventually, I was invited, I, uh, submitted an abstract to speak at, uh, MATHS about working with injured singers because again, I was so naive. I didn't know this was a thing. And I was very luckily put on a panel or, uh, in a presentation with Lita and Karen Wicklin. The late Karen Wicklund. And Karen was just took me under her wing and was generous. And I said, "I think I need to go back and become a speech pathologist." She said, "No, very, and we'll talk about this later, very little of that has to do with voice. I'm going to start this training that really is for the voice teacher, and this is what they need to know." So I became a Wickland certified, and I put it in quotes because it was, of course, not nationally accredited certification, but we are, our field is fraught with these certifications. It was a wonderful certification, and I learned a great deal from her. So that is my, my journey. And then I just created, you know, I learned about the voice team from Lita and Karen at that time and continued to collaborate. And I learned every single week. I could not do this work without the voice team, without a doubt. The further I get into this field, the less I feel that I know. And I just could not begin to do my work without constantly talking to Julie Rosenspike, in particular, um, my main collaborator, speech-language pathologist. So that is my path.

So let us go, let us back up just a little now. And, uh, Peggy is going to give us a bit of a history about the speech, oh, sorry, about the singing voice specialist. Thank you, Kari. One of the interesting things to me is how many people don't know what the term "singing voice specialist" refers to. Um, in 1981, Dr. Bob Satelloff, Robert Satelloff, coined the phrase "singing voice specialist" as a member of what he had established as a voice team. And loosely defined at that time, a singing voice specialist was a singing teacher with specialized training that, um, qualified them, him or her, to work with an injured voice in collaboration with a medical voice team or physician and or physician. But historically, the relationship between singing teachers and laryngologists has been somewhat informal. When a singer had a vocal injury or a vocal surgery that they needed to recover from, for many years, laryngologists would go to singing teachers to help with that work because singing teachers were the, the individuals with the most knowledge about voice production and exercises to use for efficient voice. What a lot of us don't realize, or I certainly didn't realize when I came into this field, is that the discipline of speech-language pathology, and Lita and Marcy can speak to this more authoritatively, only a small portion of it, if at all, is devoted to voice. There are many disciplines that are covered under speech-language pathology. So if someone's a speech-language pathologist, it does not mean that they're qualified to work with a voice injury. So naturally, laryngologists chose this collaboration with singing teachers in a very informal way. Dr. Satelloff coined the term, decided what it should be. And since that time, more and more people have expressed an interest in going into this area of of study and and career opportunity. What we're faced with today is that there is not really a codified, recognized system of accreditation or licensure for someone who wants to become a singing voice specialist. And I'm sure as a group, we'll talk about that more completely. There are different routes to learn what you need to know. One of the things I'd like us to talk about tonight is, and I sort of made a little list, I'd love to to talk about the title itself, "singing voice specialist," and how confusing that title is just by the very use of those words. I'd love for us to talk about what, what each of us believes should be the training protocol included in the background of someone who wants to safely and effectively work with the injured voice. That's something we can all weigh in on. We can certainly talk and and take questions about career opportunities in this field. So I love the fact that the four of us are here. We, we have a lot of sort of institutional knowledge about this field that I hope we can share. There's so much interest. Um, the last few years I was in Dr. Satelloff's office, I mean, I'm sure we all do, I would receive, oh, I don't know, 10 calls a month from singing teachers wanting to become singing voice specialists. And all these years, and we still don't have a good answer for it. So hopefully, we'll at least educate people about where we are in this evolving process. We have to remember that Western medicine in general is evolving at an exponential rate, and voice medicine, particularly as a subspecialty, is exploding. And along with that comes the understanding of the need for good voice clinicians to improve patient outcomes. So there's more and more need for folks who do this, and we've got to at some point settle on the training protocols. And that's what I'm going to say right now.

Wonderful. Thank you for that, that important history, Peggy. Let's, let's take those two points, those two nuggets you've lobbed to us. Let's talk about the term for just a moment. I don't think we need to belabor it. It seems to be the term that's being used, uh, even across the pond. You know, it's, it's, uh, to some degree what we're using. So I think all of us, I, I believe I first heard Ingo say, "Shouldn't anybody who's a singing teacher be a singing voice specialist?" So I think that's where the objection comes into "singing voice specialist." If we went to "singing voice rehabilitation specialist," then there's going to be objection to the, the term "rehab," which we will talk at some point tonight. Um, I believe. So some people have talked about "singing health specialist." And I would also say with that, though, even in the last decade, singing teachers are so much more knowledgeable about vocal health as just a baseline of understanding. So again, shouldn't any singing teacher have knowledge of singing health? So that's where I'll stop. Marcy and Lita, would you like to share your thoughts about the term?

I'm, I'm happy to jump in. I agree it's a very non-specific term. And I think one of the issues with how non-specific it is, aside from the obvious that voice teachers are obviously singing voice specialists and are often the gatekeepers of the vocal health of their students and the first window into that pathway, clearly they should be also very knowledgeable in vocal health. But I think even more troublesome is that the consumer singer, slash patient, whatever they are, doesn't have any idea what that means. Just because somebody's calling themselves a singing voice specialist doesn't mean it's Kari or Peggy Broody, you know? So I think it's even more troubling that the, the standard singer has no idea, uh, what that means. So not only do we have to figure out, and I know that we have, and maybe Lita, you can talk more about the term "sort of clinical singing voice specialist" versus an "independent singing voice specialist," Kari, like you are right now, which I think is at least helpful. But I still don't think it solves the problem to really describe what it is.

Before we go further, I just want to throw in one idea. And that that is that the idea of terminology has to do with accepted definition. And within the medical voice medicine world, the term "singing voice specialist" has come to represent, over the last 25 or 30 years, this singing teacher with this specialized training. Now we're moving out of that model, and we're looking for a better term. But, but by definition, that has been the understanding within the voice medicine field, for sure. But that doesn't mean we don't need a better term. At least, I'm sorry, I just jump again.

No, no. Yeah, I just concur with, uh, everything that's been said so far. It's hard. It's hard. Um, you know, I think there was a, a specific intention of Dr. Satelloff in coining that term, um, and, you know, putting that language around it that, you know, included in-depth understanding of of the science of singing in the, in the clinical aspects of it. Um, and it's challenging because there's not a given body that can confer that title onto someone. So I think that's that's part of what's difficult about it is, um, that it's, I mean, it's kind of available to to anybody to sort of determine if they feel like they they fit that definition. Certainly people here, Peggy and Kari, you're just so many years and years and years of hard work and study that have gone into building that piece of the definition for you, right? The, the understanding of the clinical and the scientific aspects of it. So, um, yep, evolving term, we need to keep having discussions. You know, I feel like every time we discuss it, you know, so there's some, you know, a little aspect of clarity, uh, that comes into it. Just, just picking up on what was said earlier about the kind of exponential growth of the profession. I mean, really, until the '90s, there wasn't even a fellowship in laryngology. So it's, it is a, it's a new specialty, newish specialty within the field of otolaryngology, and a newish specialty, considering how many hundreds of years we have of singing and training singing, a new specialty within that realm as well. And these conversations are hard, and they're gnarly, and, um, uh, what was the word that you used, Kari, that you have, uh, it wasn't, was it spunker? What was the, I think that that is at the top of the list of requirements for, um, crappiness. It's perfect. It's perfect. Um, but, um, I, I think it's, it's important as we're in this evolution, which is a good thing, which is an exciting thing. I just want to underscore it's hard that, you know, the conversations are challenging, that it's challenging to figure out, um, the pathway, but it's exciting to be part of an evolving profession and an evolving, uh, career path. Um, so I think in terms of kind of where we go from here, it's just, it's just important for people to understand what they should ex, what they can reasonably expect from the training path that they're in, um, and, uh, to really have an accurate idea of, um, what their, what their expectation should be. And I mean that on both ends of the spectrum. So, you know, as you said about speech pathology, yeah, I mean, when I got my master's, voice disorders was a required course, and it was, you know, a three-credit course. Since then, I, I think in a lot of programs, it's an elective at this point. So there are speech pathologists who may be coming out of their training with no exposure to voice disorders. So, um, it's really important for that person to understand what, you know, what their, uh, kind of, what their framework is if they're presented with a, a patient who has a voice disorder, let alone a singer who has a voice disorder. Um, and then also, kind of, what are the, on the vocal pedagogy end as well? You know, no, Peggy, you go. Peggy, please go. I was just, Lita triggered a thought for me. When I first went to work for Dr. Satelloff, which was back in 1991, it was at a time when his speech pathologists were somewhat trained in voice. And I had a lot of background in voice, but not much background in anatomy, physiology, neuroanatomy, voice disorders, clinical treatment. And what I saw was this sharing of information between myself and the speech pathologists and physicians. And it's through this collaboration, the sharing of knowledge, that the field has grown. I've certainly seen from the inside how the world, and I know you all have too, of speech pathology and the training of speech pathologists in voice has been influenced by what singing teachers know. And I just want to take a moment and say, what we all know, and that is that an experienced singing teacher, the ears of an experienced singing teacher, and the toolbox of of knowledge and exercises of an experienced singing teacher, those two things are powerful qualifications for someone who wants to work with an injured voice. Dr. Satelloff was very fond of saying, "We don't have a piece of equipment, scientific equipment, to objectively measure voice that's better at detecting subtle changes in voice quality than the ears of an experienced singing teacher." So singing teachers bring a lot, a lot to this profession. And I see how they have influenced, we have influenced voice and voice care and our understanding of vocal exercises and vocal. Once we are able to hear that, great. But the knowledge and understanding of how to design a vocal task within the framework in front of us to in facilitate efficient singing, that's the next critical piece. And that takes years, in my opinion, in the studio working with lots of different singers at different times to cultivate that understanding. And Kari, you're talking about the need to have experience as a singing teacher with healthy voices. You're talking about the straight-up habilitative element of working out.

Yep, that's right. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, the, the ability, the be it to be able to demonstrate the ability to build technique in a, in a healthy instrument is, is the basis for for all of this. You know, before one starts to consider working with a singer who has, um, an injury, to be able to to take a singer from their current skill level and enhance that skill level, um, is, is so critical. And that's what you're talking about, Kari, about designing an exercise regimen. And Peggy, what you're talking about with with your ears, which I, I concur 100%. All the, you know, the, the, um, equipment and assessment tools that we have in a clinical setting, which are great, um, and of course, extremely useful. But the, the one that I could not do without is my ears.

Absolutely. And just to clarify, we're not talking about diagnosing a voice problem. That is not the purview of anyone except a licensed laryngologist. What we're talking about is hearing the subtle changes that represent what is going on with voice. And that is what a good voice teacher can do. And it's priceless. And what I would add to that also is that over the last 25, 30 years, this pedagogy also has evolved to a more functionally based biomechanic, and also the understanding of what different, different vocal styles require. I think that that is also another thing that the experienced singing teacher who wants to be working in this realm needs to have an understanding of all of those different types of singing and the differences biomechanically what's happening in the needs of those singers, in a healthy state, let alone when they're injured. Um, the other thing I would say before we, that grassroots, if they even cover singing in the voice disorders class. I, I didn't have singing in my voice disorders class, Lita, and I don't know that you did either. But if you go to some universities where there's a strong focus there, and you're lucky enough to get that, but, but that's going to be spotty. What kind of education you're going to get in a graduate program of speech pathology, voice, and singing voice? Right. And that's another sticky wicket, isn't it? Because should someone who has not been a singer, but has gone through a speech path program and learned to work with voice disorders and knows something about voice, should they be working with the singing voice? I mean, my opinion is no. But, yeah, anybody else have the kind of background? I can work with the speaking voice, but not the singing voice. I don't, I, I agree with that. I agree.

All right. Yes. Are you asking, um, me, a speech, somebody who's got the speech pathology degree within those things that maybe has us, how to work with the disorder speaking voice? Okay. Yes, of course. And, and I would even, um, and I'm not sure if we want to go this far into this weed yet, but, you know, even the, the person that has a, maybe a bachelor's in vocal performance, has done some mild performing, decided pretty quickly to go back and get their speech pathology degree, maybe has never taught voice, non-disordered, right? So the, the question is, at what point do are they feeling qualified to work with the singing voice and disordered? But I want to put a pin in that because that's going to lead us down so many other rabbit holes. So we will come back to that. I want to come back just for a minute, Peggy, to the questions you posed to us 10 minutes ago. And I, I want to add two things about the term. One, the thing about the term is I've often thought there should be a designation like, uh, SVS voice teacher and an SVS SLP. And I oftentimes have designated that because I think that as, as we've talked about this gray area where we interlace. So when I write about it, that's how I always say SVS voice teacher, SVS SLP. And I've thought that for a long time. That there needs to be this designation. And then we can continue, not tonight, but to get clearer on this gray area that is happening in a clinic or in an independent studio. So that's been my thought. But Peggy, you also asked us, and I think let's at the somewhat at the beginning here, um, you mentioned what is required. What are the requirements? Let's go there now before we go further into the weeds. And whoever wants it, go ahead.

I'll go. Please do. I have a list. I have a list. I'm just going to read this list because I, I talk about it all the time. And I'm sure everybody, and this is just my opinion, this is my personal opinion, um, that the individual who wants to become a singing voice specialist should have at least an undergraduate degree in vocal performance and or pedagogy. A number of years' experience as a singing teacher. I don't know how we arbitrarily decide how many years because you can find somebody's taught for 10 years that's not very good, and other people that have taught for six or seven and they're terrific. But a number of years of experience as a teaching singing teacher. Professional performance experience, because you are going to be working with professional performers and people who are either semi-professional, fully professional, and you need to understand what that world is really, really like. I think it's important. The individual needs to have completed coursework in vocal anatomy and physiology, neuroanatomy of the voice, voice disorders, and voice measurement and assessment equipment. The individual needs a basic understanding of the principles of laryngology and current treatment modalities, including medications and surgical interventions. I think a singing voice specialist needs a fundamental understanding of the principles and practices of voice-specialized speech language pathology. And I think the individual needs a substantial amount of time in observation of the interaction between laryngologists, singing voice specialists, and speech language pathologists with their patients. And on top of all of it, there should be a number of clinical hours of mentored supervision of of work with injured voice by an experienced clinician supervisor. So those are the things that I think ideally should be in place. Are they always? No. But should they be? That's what I think. Now, that's a long list. Somebody else.

But you look at those things individually or collectively. You know, it's a long list. And I just want to say, I think the most critical part of any singing teacher that that we in our field are trying to gain is that practicum piece. You know, the SLP has a fellowship. Most fields, teaching, have a fellowship. Many psychology, many fields have this. And we don't. Now, NATS has their mentorship program now going. Shannon Coates and I both offer practicums. And I think Amelia Rawlings and others, sorry if I've left some of you off, forgive me. But this practicum piece is critical, I think. And I'm even doing a practicum for SVS's. That's for the singing teacher, though, specifically. So of your list, Peggy, is the one that makes, you know, many voice teachers are now going and getting anatomy, physiology, acoustics, cognition of the voice training. But that piece of bringing it together and how do we teach that is critical. Marcy or Lita, I'm sure you would like to comment.

I would add to that wonderful and very well thought out list, it, within the anatomy, physiology piece, and the lots of mentorship and observation within a clinical setting, that there really is an emphasis that the laryngologist and or speech pathologist is really, uh, talking to the person trying to get this training, whether it's a speech pathologist or a voice teacher, about vibratory function of the vocal folds, and how various different pathologies impact vibratory function of the vocal folds, and how that translates into the balance of, of, you know, source, filter, breath, source, filter. And, and though, that very specific, and then what that looks like in an actual exercise, in an actual practical setting of how to deal with that issue.

I, you're so right about that. I often tell people, being a singing voice specialist is not rocket science, but you've got to understand the physiologic nature of a vocal problem in order to decide what you are and aren't going to do. And if you don't understand that, you shouldn't be doing it. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, and what it looks like in an actual, because understanding it and looking at it on a strobe, and having a laryngologist describe it, and get an understanding on this level, and then having somebody in front of you with with scarring or something, and understanding what to actually do and how to guide that process, right? That specificity is key, I think, to success.

Lita, please say something.

Yeah, 100% agree. And Peggy, thank you for that just thorough and well thought out list that I know is from your own experience, um, for many years. And Marcy, yeah, I feel the same way that that, you know, be kind of beyond anatomy and beyond being able to look and recognize a certain, uh, lesion, just having that deep differential understanding of the, the impact on, um, how the voice functions. I guess it's hard here now. I'm at the end. I gotta think of what to add to this list. I'm gonna put scrappiness on it. Just because I really, I am adoring that so much. You know, follow me now. I fear it is you, Kari, and it is, it is, it is at the top of the list of many things I love about you so much. Um, I, I maybe I would add to that, um, some training and understanding of ethics, uh, which is a thing that I think is not, um, I know that we and NATS have a code of ethics, um, but I, I, that's certainly not something that I, I was taught in my preparation as a singing teacher. And I think it's important in in this work. And then also that the, the pedagogical abilities need to span styles, um, and, and really understand and be able to, uh, to, to teach in a, in a style-specific way. Um, and then just want to say, I really like what you said, Kari, about the SVS singing teacher and SVS. I think that's a really nice, I said that years ago. I, yeah, I, I think it's a really nice branching of the original definition that that's that's functional and meaningful.

Thank you for that. It would be easier to, it would be easier for us to then get into the weeds of the gray area. I agree. Because, you know, although we all have, um, legal ramifications that I, and ethical, that we need to be aware of as singing teachers, in some ways, it's more self-imposed, right? Um, because we are not licensed. So there's a difference between that. And I, and I think there is a difference between our, our skills, regardless of the background with which we bring to this work. If you're in a clinic 40 hours, 35 hours a week, working speech and then as an SVS, what does that look like versus I'm full-time in the voice studio working with singers' voices, and I should not be working on speech with them. That is not my scope of practice. Um, I think that would be a great, uh, clarification there. I wanna, um, before we lose, uh, with all these, there's a bunch of questions coming in. Ian asks, "Given the wide range of singing skills and potential for professional success accommodated by BM and MM degrees in voice, how does someone in this position to hire such a person into either an SVS physician or SLP professional voice position evaluate what level those skills should be at? Is it more of a baseline that must be supplemented, or do we assume a certain skill set?"

I can tell you what happened in Dr. Satelloff's office. I could volunteer that because, um, in my experience, the people who, the people who were hired, um, after a certain point, basically Dr. Satelloff was looking for voice clinicians who were licensed speech-language pathologists, but also had been experienced singers and singing teachers. He had already stepped to that place. But once they came in, he wanted some observation of their teaching skills with regard to singing. And that became partially my responsibility. So that was a bit of oversight or a bit of a way of looking at it. Um, I don't know that there's a way to, it's not a standardized way to evaluate that that I know of.

Lita, do you deal with that in your situation?

Yeah, I don't know if there's a standardized way, but that's a policy that we also file, uh, follow when we're, we're hiring SLPs who are going to work with singers. I mean, we first have wintered them down based on, you know, their experience on paper. But we don't really know a lot from from what's on paper. So we always have them as a part of their interview process, demonstrate they're off-site, so not working, not working with a, a patient, not working with a singer who has a voice injury, but with a, you know, a, a, a voice student. Have them kind of dem, like you would in an academic setting if you were hiring somebody. The same, it looks very similar to that. But I think that there is an otherness factor that cannot translate onto paper. Um, I think that there is a quality that someone who's going to do this, really, what I mean, I really consider it to be sacred work when you're working with an injured voice, and certainly someone who's an injured singer. And I think that there is an otherness factor that is just that intuitive internal knowing of how to interact with someone and their voice based on your experience. But, you know, all sorts of factors play in that doesn't necessarily translate when you're bringing someone in as a new hire and looking at their CV and, you know, they ship here. And I, I just don't know that you can necessarily predict that. You know, it's a really good question, and it's hard. I love we're using the term "evolving field" because that means we don't have to have an absolute answer necessarily. But that's a great question.

We've been using, because in my, uh, presentation that I sent you all that I presented in 2011, before PAVA became called the Apologetics of the Singing Voice Specialist, and back then I said, "It's an evolving field." And I thought I was late to the party then. We are now 10 years later. Like, when are we gonna evolve? And and how? And yes, which maybe brings me, let me keep going. I'm still on page one of our outline. But wait a minute, wait a minute. We don't want to stop. Wait, wait, wait. We don't want to stop evolving. We want to be lifetime learners that are continuously evolving. But I know we have to have some standards. I mean, sometimes someplace somehow, we've kind of established some protocols or standards for this training. That's what I'm referring to, of course.

Peggy and Marcy yesterday used a great analogy with me about what did you say? Railroad, um, uh, right? You know, yeah. If there's a speech pathologist who, you know, so I had to invent my own wheel. Lita had to invent your, you were lucky enough to actually have a voice-focused, um, CFY, it sounds like. Um, but most of us had to invent our own wheels. So, you know, if at the end of the day, those of us who do this work can can come up with guardrails for the younger professional who does want to enter into this, whether they're entering it from a voice, uh, teacher direction or from a speech pathologist who wants to do this work, it doesn't matter. Both are going to require, um, some kind of filling in and training. And I, and ideally, what we would do with this practice, dream practicum, is is to just set up those guardrails for those professionals who want to be doing this, so that there is some sort of a standardization of how one goes about getting this information that they're not going to get in in grad school.

Let me, I want to, um, just give this list that will give us a segway into, we keep mentioning PAVA, but there are perhaps people that don't know. So I just would like to say, um, that in with regard to the voice team, voice team, voice team, right? We all agree that the voice team is imperative. I want to say a couple things. The voice team can extend beyond the laryngologist, the speech language pathologist, the voice teacher. It can, right? Include physical therapists, massage specialists, psychologists, neurologists, allergists, pulmonologists, naturopaths, acting voice specialists. We could go on and on. Dentists. Did I say that right? So, um, so I do want us to think broadly. And as Lita reminded us all the other night, the most important person in the voice team is the singer, the client, the patient, right? So that is, that is must be at the forefront. Um, and I, I would like to come back to that just a little bit about this, um, imperative nature of the voice team. But let's say the multidisciplinary conferences. I do want people to know about, of course, The Voice Foundation. Thank you again for co-sponsoring tonight. The Fall Voice Conference, which is fabulous. It will be in San Francisco next October. Um, the SFVNA Northwest Voice Conference, which will be this May 13th and 14th in Seattle, Washington, which is a multidisciplinary conference. Um, and of course, their Utah Performance Voice Conference, just had an online one last, uh, yesterday. San Francisco has an online, I'm sorry, I don't know if it's online this year, but they have a multidisciplinary conference. So there's many more popping popping up beyond even the big ones, The Voice Foundation and Fall Voice. But then we, we have PAVA, Pan American Vocology Association. So Marcy or Lita, would you please talk a bit about this wonderful association?

Lita, the president, please.

I, I think we have served around equal time. Um, well, I, I have not been on the board for the last year and a half. But the, the whole idea of, and I think all of us were present at the birth of that organization, um, and many people in the audience today as well, in 2013 in Salt Lake City, um, and the, the whole idea was for for that to be, um, kind of, uh, an opportunity to create a hub that is that has the spokes that go out to all of these, um, different professions that that intersect in this area of voice, and specifically singing. Um, so also has an annual conference, which will be in August this year in Minneapolis, which will be a hybrid conference. So hopefully this will be our third annual Minneapolis conference, and the first one that's actually going to happen in Minneapolis. Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise. Um, [Music] and part of the impetus for starting that organization was to try to create a, um, a credential that a path that people could follow to a credential, which is, uh, nearing its, um, point of of launching, which would be called the PAVA Recognizable Colleges. And I believe Ed Reissert is in the meeting tonight, and he really is the person who has who has taken this over the finish line. And the idea is that that is not a credential that is qualifying anyone to do anything. So it's not qualifying somebody to teach singing. It's not qualifying somebody to, um, provide medical care to a singer. It's not qualifying anybody to do singing voice rehabilitation. The idea is that the collection of experience, training, and, uh, knowledge, um, that is measured through a presentation of a portfolio of training and experience and knowledge, um, through a test, multi-disciplinary, yeah, so multi-disc, you have to demonstrate multi-disciplinary, um, interactions in addition to the written test. Yeah, it's been many years in the making. We're almost there. Ed is ours, still on that committee, right? Committee, yes. And Reissert is the chair of that committee about, um, Ken Bozeman, Mary, and Emil, and Amanda, is the other one on there. So yeah, we have fun. We're almost there.

Um, somebody has asked, and this is an apt time, "What is the difference between a vocologist and a singing voice specialist?" Could I, could I give Ingo's definition? His original definition of vocologist. Long advocate has long advocated for formal, recognized, and codified systems of training for singing teachers as well as those who work with injured voices. He's long been a proponent of this. His term of "vocology," which he defined as "the science of voice habilitation and the treatment of voice disorders," end quote, has led to the term "vocologist" now widely used to self-identify by many individuals involved in various aspects of voice training, voice care, and voice research. Now, those of you in PAVA, if you have, could we just for a second look at the definition of habilitation and rehabilitation? Because I think I think that's confusing for people as well, don't you think? Just, just very briefly. And in that sentence, Ingo actually refers to both. But the distinction between habilitation and rehabilitation. Habilitation refers to the process of training and strengthening the healthy voice to meet specific performance demands. This describes just typical speech and singing lessons for the uninjured voice. Rehabilitation refers to restoring what has been damaged to its former condition.

function subsequently, and in our field, I mean, I can't use the word rehabilitation because that is really the purview of people who are licensed. Same thing with the word therapy. So, habilitation, working with regular, healthy voices. Rehabilitation, bringing something back from an injury. And in Ingo's original statement, he referred to vaccologists as vocology as working with healthy voice habilitation. And it sounds like rehabilitation, but now it seems like a very broad term. Oncologist, that's all I know about that.

Has become, and I would say, on the topic of habilitation versus rehabilitation, I think that when we talk about, so Leah and I, who are on the clinical speech pathology, and when we have a singer, and we're working with a singer, and I know she and I have discussed it, so I know we're on the on on a similar page, it is about restoring function for their daily needs. And if they are a singer, whether they are an avocational singer or the the prayer leader in their church or singing on the Metropolitan Opera or national tour, that is what their daily function requirements are for their voice. So the role, the way we view the role as the speech pathologist in that setting with the backgrounds that we have, is to get them to that point. And the the historical distinction of speech pathology is speech, um, a speech only kind of silo. I think is, I mean, for the in the world I live in, the clinicians I interact with, it's really more about the the subsystems balancing, balancing subsystems, uh, and not so much speech versus singing. So when we're looking at a patient, based on what what their needs are, it's really how biomechanically can we get them more intact within the setting of whatever their vocal injury is, to get them performing at the level that they need to be performing, reproducibly, sustainably, without fatigue. Um, you know, so that that old distinction of like speech pathology, speech, I don't, I don't know that that's how it's viewed anymore.

And you're not saying, but you're not suggesting that a speech pathologist with no background in singing should be working with, absolutely what you mean. So maybe Kari's definition is what applies here, that you are an SLP, SVS. I feel, just, I love Marcy's pathologist doing this work. Um, absolutely needs to do the same amount of due diligence that Kari did in order to align herself with Almiradi and his teams to to to be on their medical care team. I don't, I don't think that having a license and a hat that's a speech pathologist on it enables somebody to work with an injured singer. I absolutely don't. Um, having said that, I am very comfortable working with injured singers. I, I very comfortably cross across that line. And I, when I'm working with a singer, I am restoring their function for whatever their daily moods are, but I do it in collaboration. I don't, you know, and that's where that gray area that we were talking about Kari yesterday, that sort of that gray area of acute injury, rehabilitation, transitional, and then full function. And there's that gray area that we kind of meet. This pathologist enters it from this direction, and a singing teacher might hit that gray area from this direction if they have a singer in their studio who seems to be getting into trouble. And it's, what do we do in that gray area? Um, what's the referral pattern? That's what, who does what? Who do I, who who am I interacting with? Michael and Kari and saying, I'm sending you this patient. Are we working with with the patient in tandem? You know, I, I think there are a lot, there are all sorts of avenues to it. I, and I, um, want to make a clear point that I forgot to make at the very beginning that you just reminded me of, Marcy. I work in affiliation with Dr. Moradi and Dr. Bot and Dr. Jill Liberto's team, and actually other laryngologists in the area. We have nine or ten now in the Seattle area. Um, I do not work on site like Peggy did, and that's why I was saying at the beginning that I probably represent more of the truth. What will be the future of voice teachers who want to be SBS? Is you have to create this collaboration. You have to contact the laryngologist in your area, not the ENT people. If it is an ENT, they must be a voice specialist. Even a lot among laryngologists, though, please understand that not all of them specialize in the performing voice. Even among the specialty, there is a sub-specialty of this specialty of the broader field. So I digress. But, um, so I just want to make it clear, I am not on site with them. I, but I have been given permission to say that I work in affiliation with them. The other thing, Marcy, that I want to say is that, um, I love this idea that you presented to us Tuesday, that you and, and I believe Leah, as well, think about the voices, just restoring function. It's not distinguished as much between singing and speaking. So therefore, this this title of speech language pathologist, I don't know, maybe you all need to talk to ASHA about broadening that, um, description because that adds to the confusion. And then finally, one other thing I wanted to say to what Peggy said, that's really important to me. Peggy, I have, I approach this idea of rehabilitation terminology a little differently now. It took me a long time to get there. I actually do say that I rehabilitate voices, and this is why, um, the definition of rehabilitation, I am not a licensed therapist. I am not a voice therapist. I am not licensed. But when you look at the definition, I absolutely am part of the team of restoring function. So why should I not be able to say that I do rehabilitation as a non-licensed person? So that distinction again, SBS voice teacher, and it took me a long time, um, to feel that I could say that. Peggy, go ahead. I can tell you, no, I was just going to say, what we, what we do is rehabilitated. The dilemma that I face is working in an office of that level, full-time, a medical office where, uh, the legal implications of what you put in a report are significant. And so we really had to follow the law with regards to terminology and the use of the word habilitation or therapy. Got it. Thank you, Kari. Transparency is the other issue. When you say rehabilitation, very transparent that you have an affiliation with a team, not just carelessly putting up on your, uh, website that you that you rehabilitate or do voice therapy, as we see in many cases. So I think it's, I think it's different because you're, you're, you've done the work, and you're very transparent about what your role is and your affiliation with a top-class, world-class voice care team in your area. So, well, and we need to, you know, since this is a NATS chat, you know, my my standpoint has always been, I'm so respectful, as you all know, about our scope of practice and the voice team. I just, I can't stress that enough. And yet, we have singers all over the country. And if the number 30 is accurate, I heard that statistic years ago, I don't know if it's true. At some point, we'll have an injury at some point or a disorder in their in their lives. And it doesn't matter to me if it's an elite singer or the church singer who's 65 and has been singing all of her life, as I said earlier today, and has been diagnosed with a voice tremor. It is just as important to them. So how do we get this information to singing teachers who are going to be, whether we, whether we, I mean, the big we, not the four of us, anoint, right, uh, the gatekeepers, whether we say yes, you can now call yourself an SBS, right? There's no one doing that, nor should there be at this point. So how do we make certain that people feel welcome to this, and that we acknowledge this is the key, that we acknowledge that not everybody is going to live in a place where they can get to a key team, and yet they need help. You know, that's, but I guess I would say to every NATS member, every voice teacher out there, that you, you really cannot do this work without communication. You don't have to work regularly with the voice team, but if you have a particular singer, you have to be in communication with the SLP and, uh, the MD on a regular basis. So anyway, somebody else speak. I don't think that we are, I think we are helping trying to help people understand what a singing voice specialist is, and that if you want to do it, these are the things you really ought to do to train yourself to do it effectively. Anybody can hang up a shingle and call themselves a voice teacher, we know that. But the risk for inju, and any voice, misguided voice teacher or someone who makes a mistake can hurt a healthy voice. But when you're dealing with an injured voice, the voice, the the voice itself is more vulnerable to further injury. So there are, there are ethical and legal repercussions to that. So if you're going to call yourself a singing voice specialist and work with diagnosed injuries, we're telling people tonight the things that we agree should be part of your training, and these things are acquirable. It is possible to get this coursework. It is possible to teach for five or ten years and to study under under other teachers and to go to NATS meetings and learn different techniques and be a lifelong learner. These things are possible. They're not easy, but they're possible. That's what we can do, and I think that's what we are doing. And you can't like us, and you, and you, I mean, I, Leah, I know you and I both. I just had somebody fly in from Oklahoma, uh, last week to observe in our clinic, and she did any kind of two or three day as part of her sabbatical. So, I mean, there are, there are, if if you're wanting to see the clinical side, there are certainly clinicians who I think are open to to doing that. I am one of them on the right, in the right, right circumstances. The other thing, which is that the things we're talking about are are specific to the United States. We should probably, um, yeah, yep, they have a different model and they're, they're there are things that are that are different in other countries. So I just wanted to put that on the table. So we're talking about US when we talk about, um, that's true. We're thinking, Ingo, I was just going to ask, but I was going to ask, read somebody's question, but Leah, I, I want to give you room to respond to that.

Monotony of information that we've just all shared. Far from the opposite of monotony, and important, and, uh, and necessary. So all such important things. I guess I just would encourage folks who are in the audience and tonight, or or who watch this later, um, that if you're embarking on this path, be sure to talk to people who are doing this work about what's, what's the optimal path for what you want to do. And the path is not decided, as is abundantly clear from this discussion tonight. And it's, you know, there's not a one, one route to it. But, um, I, I have a number of times had conversations with folks after they have already kind of embarked on on a training path who said to me, if I had known what to expect, I would have chosen a different path. Um, and kind of from both, both, both ends of the spectrum, that has happened. So, um, more and more in the clinical setting, and whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, it just kind of is, is the way it is. More and more in the clinical setting, there are people out there who are kind of taking on this dual training path of having a a strong background in performance and vocal pedagogy and going on that SLP training path. And from the perspective of the healthcare system, there's a job opening in a clinic that's going to be very attractive because that person can bill insurance and can address the voice holistically, kind of all, all at one time, without having, um, kind of seeing, seeing separate providers. And, you know, we could have, you know, this, this conversation, maybe part four or five could be, you know, whether or not that that's an optimal outcome, but it is a reality. And so I have had folks who have gone through, you know, um, a certification or a or a, um, you know, an academic program that they felt was going to prepare them to work in a clinic, and then they later found that that, that model, that that Peggy trailblazed for us, is is quite rare in this day and age of having a singing teacher, um, you know, employed by a clinic, um, and, and, um, so I just, I just, I feel like it's incumbent on, on, I'm a me too, and, and on all of us, really, to to be clear about that, and just to encourage people, you know, if you're going to go on this path, talk, talk to lots of folks. I'm happy, you know, I'm happy to answer questions, have discussions, have folks come and visit our clinic, but just be clear about what, what you should expect from that path that you're pursuing.

We have a terrific question, uh, from Lauren O'Neill, who says, I am a licensed SLP working in an ENT office and often get referrals for patients with voice injuries who are also singers. I am not a trained singer, which I inform my patients at the initial evaluation, and so I am solely working on their speaking voice, if that is effective. So my question is, would an SBS and I be working with these patients concurrently, or would I rehab their speaking voice first prior to referring an SBS? Great question. What an awesome question. Great question. In, in Dr. Satellite's office, it was concurrent for me as well. It's concurrent. It depends. And I'll say also in his practice, and it still is this way, whether you are a singer or not, you do speech and singing. Which when I first went there, I thought, what? And I gotta tell you, by the time I left, I understood the value. I really did. I had so many people who were non-singers, never sung in their lives, who said, you know what, the singing part is great, and I love it, and it's really helped me, and I like the exercises better than the speech exercises, but I'll do them both. I mean, it's, but it was concurrent. Sorry. Our clinic is with, yeah, I agree. Concurrent is the best model. And that was that was in it. And then again, if it's not somewhere where Marcy and Leah or some of these other major clinics are, you know, that that have an SLP, SBS on site, or an SLP who, as the questioner asked, is not a singer, then hopefully the ENT or whatever the clinic is, will find out, or singing teachers in the area will find out who the doctors are that might be getting these referrals and begin to create a relationship. I think that's the key for voice teachers is to find the laryngologist or ENT voice specialist in your area and begin to develop a relationship. Ask for ask for time, or if you have a singer who you think needs to have an evaluable medical evaluation, um, please remember hoarseness is not a sign of reflux. It might be, but it doesn't mean we diagnose it, right? So perhaps a singer needs it about medical evaluation by an MD. Go with them to the appointment and begin to build a relationship with the doctor so that they know to refer to them. And can I just speak for a moment, just to voice teachers who don't want to become singing voice specialists, but have students that they refer to specialists? Um, I think it's important that the voice teacher be, or the singing teacher be a part of the process. If a singer has an injury and goes in surgery or rehabilitative work, our clinic invited, with the permission of the patient, invited the teacher to be there and present and observe what was done. And, and so that, when the singer, especially when the singer goes back to the habilitative process fully, um, it's a, it's a more smoothly integrated transition. So I think it's really important that the singing teacher be included in the process, even if they have no interest in becoming a singing voice specialist.

I agree with you. It's interesting how many peop people want to be a singing voice specialist. And I will tell you, it's very slow work. People need to know it's not, it's not sexy and exciting. It is. Yeah, go ahead, Peggy. Take that. It's not about music. It's not about music. I was going to say earlier when was talking about expectation, I really try to talk to people about what you really do day to day is that slog, build step by step, fix. It's not about the music. It really is very structural and systematic and pedantic sometimes and slow, and you got to have patience, and it takes a different kind of emotional and psychological understanding. We all need it with when we're working with singers, but when you're working with an injured singer, it's a whole different ball game. You're dealing with all, with the biggest trauma a singer can have in their lives. So there's, we're not psychologists, we're not qualified to be, but we are dealing with that elephant in the room. So it's a whole different ball game at a different level of stress. Um, it really is. Alan has just reminded me, I love this, to remind our students that we, we need to continue to educate our students and our singers to ask the voice teacher to be included when they go see their doctor, to make sure that they sign the appropriate forms. Marcy, go ahead. Okay. Every single singer level that comes into my clinic, if I know they have a voice teacher, I always say, if you, if you would like, um, I strongly encourage you to add your teacher to the HIPAA form, and then I give an extra card for them to give to the teacher. And I, you know, my, it is always my preference to interact with the primary voice teacher because that is the person that knows their voice more than I do, and they have valuable insights. But I'm often surprised how often I don't. It's not initiated. I'm not, I'm, I don't have the ability to chase down all of the voice teachers of all of my patients, but I will always set up time to have a phone conversation, to respond to an email, and all that. I'm often surprised at at the time when that doesn't happen. Um, on the other end, I'm sort of surprised by that. I, I get great value in interacting with the voice teacher and getting their their insights and their thoughts on on their student. They probably sent to us to begin with. Thank you. I love that. They are singing teachers are on the front line of of discovery of voice issues because very often young singers, especially, have no idea what a vocal injury, how it might manifest. So singing teachers really are invaluable. And, and I just want to say that early, early intervention in any voice problem is one of the best things that can happen, short of prevention. Early intervention. And now voice care is at such a level, if you're lucky enough to find a laryngologist who specializes in voice, that the odds are in your favor for a good recovery. If it's an early diagnosis, a correct treatment protocol, the odds are really in your favor, even if you end up having voice surgery. I mean, there's no guarantee, but the paradigm has changed dramatically in the last 33 years. I'm so glad you brought that up, Peggy. When I do, whenever I do any vocal health with it, whether it's a lecturer with a patient, I always say, go active instead of reactive. Be proactive instead of reacting. It will always, always be ahead of the game if you can just be a little proactive about your vocal health.

Yeah, I think the problem is though, for so many teachers, you're in a location where there's not someone who's, and there's not a laryngologist who specializes in voice. And just because somebody has fancy equipment doesn't mean they know what they're looking at. That's the other problem we're running into. I mean, no offense, but you know, some people are better at diagnosing than others, or more sophisticated and, and how do you know that? Isn't when you go to the multidisciplinary conferences, it's always so interesting to watch the doctors, uh, you know, see something, a video strobe up on the screen, and all of them discuss and the different ideas. And so that's always fascinating to me. I strongly encourage people to go to the multidisciplinary conferences.

So, well, ladies, this has been so wonderful, and I think maybe we do need a part two where we get into the gray area, this gray area of the SLP, SBS, and the voice teacher, SVS, and maybe really have a conversation about how we all see that and how others in the profession see that. Would be very interesting, and maybe we can continue to evolve with some guardrails in place, um, as we discuss this. And I would just like to say our dear friend Ken Bozeman has said, we'll bring this conversation full circle now about Scrappy. He wants to know, does being a soprano help with scrappiness? Just saying. Peggy's mezzo though. So, right. So I think I think I'll think of myself playing Scrappy. [Laughter] Being an SDS requires scrappiness, I guess. Yeah, anyway, all of us, aren't we lucky to be in this profession? Yes. I consider myself, I mean, I hate to use the word blessed because that's just so overused, but I swear, I do feel that way. It is a privilege. It is the work of people. It is a privilege. It really is. I am, I am, I'm thankful every day to need to kind of bring all of my experiences together in a in a way that helps people is just tremendously, um, humbling and rewarding. Yep. I love that. Well, thank you, ladies, and everyone. Just a reminder, our last NATS chat of the season. I can't believe that we're there. Will be May 15th. Black American Music Voice Pedagogy, what voice teachers should know. And it will be Allison Crockett and Trinice Robinson Martin. So it should be a wonderful, wonderful conversation. So I hope you'll join us May 15th. And to my esteemed guests and friends, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your. Thank you. Thank you. Your kindness. Well, really, your, you guys have been such incredible mentors to me all these years, and, uh, your kindness and willingness to talk about this and specific cases that I've had that I might need guidance, or you've just all been there, and I, I greatly appreciate it. So thank you. Good night, everyone. And, uh, continue to stay safe. And hopefully, we'll see you in May and NATS in Chicago. The NATS conference in Chicago. Good night. Thank you. And Paba, thank you. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Good night.