Transcription
From humble beginnings of a family who moved to the United States as refugees to now becoming a verified eight figures in profit trader.
The way that I trade is I ask myself the question, would I take this trade 90% of the time? And if the answer is no, then I won't take the trade. Once I put the trade on, I have very high conviction. So, I'll stay in the trade. If you stay in this mindset of being able to hold the positions to their full potential, that's how you catch the 500 to 1,000% gainers.
Introducing the triumphant story of Brando known as Elite Options. starting trading 15 years ago with just $6,000. And in his story of making multiple eight figures, we talk about the highs and the lows of large wins and large losses. And the key to Brando's success may surprise you because he breaks the number one trading rule that he doesn't use a stop-loss. And with his years of experience, he takes a look back and shares what is most important for young and upcoming traders to focus on.
Let's say you have five grand. This is my last five grand. If I lose it, then I'm broke. The way that I see it is even if you turn 5 to 25, you're still broke. Even 5 to 100, you still have a long way to go. So, the way that I look at it is weekly options can all go to zero by Friday. A lot of people, they'll buy $1,000 worth of calls or puts and they'll put a 30% stop loss. But I always tell people, you have to account for your max risk first, meaning I will buy $300 worth the option and allow it to go to zero. It's a controversial way of trading because people don't like to let things go to zero. But if your average loss is $500, why not just buy $500 worth of the trade? I lean a lot more into support and resistance. Anyone can find it on a chart, but the hard part about it is just waiting for it. Why keep it super basic when most people would be if I had a this and a this and a this? I've got so many things. So surely I've got to be at a better position or better edge, but you've kind of took it back to basics. What is the benefit in doing so?
That's a good question. So I I'll give you kind of a real life example right now. So, ladies and gents, welcome back to another episode. Thank you for driving down here, my man. We are in Arizona and uh I think we're going to take a nice deep dive specifically because there's not many traders who have crossed the levels that you have crossed. So, I want to start off with just a a broad overview. You've crossed the four figure, the five figure, the six, the seven, and the eight um within that journey, is it like a snowball like as as you get to the larger capital, it gets easier and easier or does it get harder and harder cuz the big numbers probably eat up at you when you take a big loss?
Yeah. So, I would say the absolute hardest is getting to the six figure mark because you're still trying to figure out what strategy works and how to manage your risk and your capital. So, once you cross from four figures to 100,000, you have a blueprint of how to get to a million. And once you get to a million, it that's when it begins to really snowball to where making five grand or 10 grand, you can do that in a couple hours or a day or two days. Mhm.
And for me, once you have the blueprint to get to a million, the 10 million comes very quickly. So, uh, the first 100 grand, anyone listening, you have to get there first to understand how the game actually works.
Mhm.
Going through that process, I I gathered this with the answer of like you got the blueprints, so now it's just repeating the process and you got 14 years behind you. So, you know, it is getting easier in that sense cuz it's a rinse and repeat. But what about the formative years? you know the first three four I think you made your first million at your third year mark.
Third year.
So pretty early on uh compared to where most would be. What did you do in those first three years that others maybe don't?
Yeah, so so the number one thing is the ability to just wait for the right trades and the right trades don't come every day like a lot of traders they try to make a monetary goal and they try to hit the same number every day every week and that's a common fallacy with trading because every day there's different levels of risk and reward and you can't trade every day with a small account. So early on I realized that my first year and I would wait days, weeks to sometimes even a month or two at a time and I would get very aggressive with certain trades and uh went from six grand to 100 the first year and then got to around 250 the second year and then by the time you get to 250 the the million is almost to me it was inevitable.
Super curious about all of this because you know with the benefit of hindsight you can probably say yeah that was easy but you know looking back or even comparing to what most people go through which is year one two three blown accounts how did your even first year become profitable when others would be three-year mark, 10 accounts blown?
Yeah, so I I would say it's a combination of a couple different things. Number one was luck and and timing, just timing in the market. Uh, 2010 was pretty much the bottom of uh, the '08 financial crisis and you United States and uh, I caught the wave of Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft these stocks and um, uh, it was a combination of that and then just being able to catch the right options trades that can go 500 to a,000%. Because during that time you would see gap ups in these stocks day after day and that allowed me to just jump on the right trades.
So it's interesting, 500 to a,000%. Explore that with me.
Yeah. So, options trading, the beauty behind it is you can go from four figures to six figures very quickly if if you just wait for the right trades uh versus like trading futures or or trading uh stock actual like shares of a of a company.
Um, that's why you trade options is to grow from small to big. And once you get to a certain threshold, do you necessarily need to trade options every day? Not anymore. You can pivot to also trading futures and and shares but uh for anyone listening to grow an account with little capital you you have to trade options.
Is that because of the risk-reward factor that you can unlock?
Yeah. So there's no other vehicle where you can catch a 500 to a,000% gain.
Uh in a day or a week, right? Unless you catch a short squeeze on a small cap stock. Sure.
But the probability of finding that is is very is very very slim. So with the reward side there's immense upside but at the same time there is a huge opportunity to blow your account very quickly because of the same reason. Um, what protectionary measures do you have to do above and beyond maybe what a, you know, non-leveraged stock trader would do or a futures trader and these other arenas that are less risky in the sense?
Yeah. So so trading options it's extremely volatile. Weekly options they can all go to zero by Friday if if you pick the wrong strike at the wrong time. So, one thing I always tell people is you have to size for zero. Meaning, when you buy the option, that is your maximum risk versus a lot of people, they'll buy $1,000 worth of calls or puts and they'll put a 30% stop loss. So, $300 loss, they'll stop out of the trade. But I always tell people, you have to account for your max risk first, meaning I will buy $300 worth of the option and allow it to go to zero.
Go to expiry basically.
Exactly. Yeah.
Uhuh. So in that case, you're using no technical price action based stop-loss or mental stop-loss. It's just whether it hits my profit or I let it run to zero. It's of this nature.
With weekly options, it it's to me it's more binary, meaning psychologically, you have to be ready for all outcomes. And by by sizing for zero, you're at least taking the emotions out of the trade.
So,
Okay, what would another options trader be doing in this case? They would be putting like a a stop-loss based on price action. And you know if it's one week expiry in the same day they might hit stop loss and get out when price had the chance to reverse over the rest of the week which is what you open up the benefit for. Is it like this?
Yeah. So yeah, most people will they'll set a percent stop loss or based on a certain level and but the thing with options is you could be down 50% on Monday and you could by Tuesday it could reverse back to even and by Wednesday you could be up 200%. So by setting such a tight stop it you're not allowing yourself to see what the trade can actually do. So the sizing reserve, it's a controversial way of trading because people don't like to let things go to zero.
But if your average loss is $500, why not just buy $500 worth of the trade?
Yeah, I see your point. Instead of putting your risk management based on the entry and stop loss, you just have it, I guess, a smaller position size and and you allow the full thing to to go. So it it is controlled in the same way. There's still risk management. At the same time, when people put a stop-loss, uh, which is kind of trading rule 101, put a stop loss. Uh, with that being said, when the stop loss is there as a there's a few factors. Number one would be my trade is no longer valid. So, it's an invalidation criteria. So, if it's no longer likely going my direction, I might as well get out. Another one is I got into the trade, it's chopping around, and I wanted momentum. So, I'm going to pull out early cuz it's not giving the reaction I expected. But there's always a benefit to having a stop loss because it's there for a reason to validate your idea. I guess in your case, you're not having that same criteria of invalidations.
Yeah. So, so for me, the way that I trade is I will only take the trade if if it's an A+ setup. Meaning, I ask myself the question, would I tra take this trade 90% of the time? And if the answer is no, then I won't take the trade. So once I put the trade on, I have very high conviction and I for me I have years of experience. So I I'll stay in the trade and most times it works out. Sometimes it doesn't,
Right? Like I don't win all the time. There's definitely draw downs where you could be down a couple hundred thousand in a week or a month.
But over a long period of time, if you stay in this mindset of being able to hold the positions to their full potential, that's how you catch the 500 to a,000% gainers. And uh that's how you really grow the account versus
you set a tight stop and you stop out all the time. You will never hold a winner more than the same amount, 40, 50%, 60%.
So it it it trains your mind to be ready for everything. And uh I I've grown an account from four figures to multiple eight figures. So it it takes this type of losing in order to get there.
Mhm.
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When you do your position size and you allow you're sizing for zero, so you're accepting the total risk of the full position you put in. Is there is there a systematic way on how you connect it to your total balance where whatever you size for zero is always an x% of your account?
Um, I would say yes, not as much lately. Um, like nowadays I'll allocate a certain amount to an account and sometimes that account it won't go to zero but early on though you should always have an amount where you should not trade anymore for the day or the week. Meaning, if if you have, let's say, a $100,000 account, everyone has a number to where that's their pain threshold, right? There is no percent amount that everyone should stop at because we're all different. The way we look at money is different. So, for you, it could be, you know, you lose 10 grand, okay, I I can't trade anymore. But for me, I could say, okay, 50,000 and I'm done.
And you have to be honest with yourself because if I tell you your stop's going to be 50%. You can't listen to my advice because the money means something different to each of us. Yes. So look, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and and ask yourself, what does the money mean to me? And there's a certain number to where you start sweating and stick to that number.
What is your relationship like to risk and money? Would you say you're risky or pretty detached?
Um, I would say I am very detached to money even before I had any. Like I I never was very uh I I never thought about money in the sense of the more I have the happier I'll be or once I have this I'll feel like complete. So that
Why do you think that is?
I don't know that ever since I was a kid, I was always like that. like I would spend every dollar I had again and and I would never worry about money even leading into 19 20 years old like I I always thought that way and I think that helps with um being able to scale an account because the more emotion you have attached the harder it will be for you to actually grow and that's another part where people need to be honest with themselves like how much does money mean in your life to where if you lose x amount it it ruins your day or your week like there's recently there was one week I lost 500 100,000 in one trade.
Wow.
Yeah. And you know, people were hanging out with me and we're hanging out and no one knew until I posted on Instagram the screenshot and me losing 500 grand.
Do you think that's a a muscle you've built over time of taking losses and uh seeing the big numbers and losing the big numbers that you you desensitized or is this something you've just had? It's in your DNA maybe.
Yeah, I I would say over time you get desensitized. Um, another part of it too is uh, the way I see losing is you have to sometimes lose big to get to that next level. Meaning a $500,000 loss could set me up for a $2 million win in the future.
But to get to a $2 million win, like it's not just this like exponential curve in your P&L. Like you're going to take L's along the way and you have to accept that.
What is it about the loss that helps you break ceilings as opposed to like tilts and spiraling in the wrong way?
Yeah. So, so losing um, there's so much value to be learned. Meaning you're doing something clearly very wrong and you have to extract the value out of that otherwise um, you could blow up the account even at my level. Like taking a $500,000 loss is not you know, it's not small even for me. So um, you have to look at it from that standpoint is learn from it and then get better otherwise you know the game could be over for you.
There's probably a fine line between harnessing this that you have, which is you're detached and and this this is a tool you can use. You you embrace risk, which is a tool you can use. But if you cross that line a bit too much, you could be very crass within and overlever and get overzealous and you know, then cross into the dangerous territory. How do you float with that line? Or do you have cutoffs? Do you have like rules in place where ex this is my max loss or after two losses in a day, I call it a day. Do you have any protectionary measures in place?
Um, yeah, I would say nowadays uh, if I'm down I would say over 500,000 in a day, then then I have to stop because at that point you're just going to start really revenge trading and
you know there's I mean there's been days where I'm down over a million dollars. Yeah. So so uh, so yeah, I would say 500 grand and you you got to stop.
Yeah.
I need to know what you're made of, what you're eating and this is another another level clearly. But what what was the you know year two year three like when the numbers were not so crazy more because I want to connect it to the audience where they might be thinking well yeah he can do that but I don't I I I I get really angry when I lose simulator capital and it was a 50k account and it wasn't even my money and it cost me 100 or 200 bucks this there's a heavy detachment attachment to money for most. What can someone do to get to a healthy portion of detachment and embracing risk the right way?
Yeah, so so I I would say fundamentally you have to realize that uh, there's much more important things in life. Meaning for me, I I always tell myself, you know, as long as I have my wife, you know, I have my family, I have my friends, then I'm good. And the money money comes and goes. You lose a job, you lose a career, you lose a business. You can always bounce back. You can get another job, you get another career, you can build another business. And uh, the same thing goes with money is everyone loses. You're always when you trade, you expect to lose.
And if you have that mindset going in, you you you you will win. You will win. You learn from the losers. You you leverage the winners and you keep scaling the account.
Completely true what you said, like people's worst case scenario that sends them into a tilt is like, I spent 300 bucks on an account, I blew it. You still got your job. So, you just save up and you can go again. You have another chance. But what is it about loss? Because everybody knows like I can get another job if I lose it. like I can always bounce back, but is that but I don't want to have that setback in life? Do you think it's related to friends and family pressure? Is it just ego? Like I don't want to if I made a bit of money, I don't want to be seen as the guy that that fell off. What is it that people are truly scared of even though that they even though they know that their life is not going to end?
Yeah.
Well, the thing with losing is it's very painful, right? And and it's some people see it as they're ashamed to lose. So sitting down and looking at your losing trades, it's it doesn't feel good, right? At any point, whether you're beginner or or you know, a seasoned veteran in the trading game. So doing that first, taking that first step towards actually looking at what went wrong, that's the hard part. But once you build that habit of looking at your losers every week, it becomes normal. Okay? Losing is normal. Learning from it is normal. And once you can accept that, you get better.
Super interesting. man. Uh do you now because now you're at a a situation where you have a lot to lose where previous was like I can bounce back and I can get a job and you know I can recover 10 20 grand but now when you're talking half a million a million in a week. This is just generational kind of money that you wouldn't want to have the resets back to zero. Do you have things outside of your trading that are protection measures to make you more comfortable in the market whether it's investments or other income streams? Is there other things that people can do to improve their trading in that sense?
Oh yeah. Um, so I would say like anyone that's trying to either become full-time trader or just make trading as one of their main sources of income, don't quit your job right away. It's very important to have something stable to where it at least pays your bills, whether you have a mortgage, student loans, credit card bills, uh, or any type of uh, liability because the more pressure you put on by just going allin, the less likely you are to perform. There's some people that can do it, but I would say for the majority, be stable first and when you are actually trading, you don't feel any pressure to just take all these different trades.
So, um, I would say, yeah, keep your day job until you feel like you're truly ready. And I I do have a metric that I I like to give people is if if you have minimal amount of debt, I would say less than I would say $100,000 in debt across, you know, a house, credit card, and other things. I would have 250 grand in a brokerage account and then 250,000 in cash. And if you have both those things lined up with minimal liabilities, then you are giving yourself the best chance to actually be full-time. And to even achieve that you would say use your normal path whether it's your job whatever you have or that buffer should come from your trading.
Um, I'm sorry.
In the sense of let's say someone does have debt.
To get debt free. Should it be through trading or should it be through just their day job or whatever else they're doing?
I I would say through their day job. Yeah. Pay off through your day job. Take care of you know your day-to-day and then slowly build up your trading account um along that same journey. So, it's an interesting dynamic because there's there's a lot of things that I hear from successful traders and rules and, you know, common denominators, but the reality is most people get into trading in the first place because they have money problems. They're like, I'm in debt. I'm struggling. My job's not enough. So, let me look towards trading. So, they're already they're already a step behind. They're already starting from a weaker place than someone that's not in debt or someone that has a 100k buffer to play with cuz they're not going to chase it. Where this guy is maybe thinking trading is going to help me pay rent. When you're in that very extreme position, I don't know if you've had that same experience at some point, but what words of advice would you give to someone that's already having the uphill battle?
Okay. So, so this is what I would say, right? So, if if you are in a tight position and you don't have much money, you let's say you have five grand, right? And and you're in a position where you say, "Okay, this is my last five grand. If I lose it, then I'm broke." But the way that I see it is even if you turn five to 25, you're still broke. you turn five to 50, you're still you can't maneuver much, right? Even five to 100, you still have a long way to go. So, the way that I look at it is in the market, there's opportunities where you see mass panic in the market or or mass euphoria. And these inflection points present the absolute best opportunities to trade options where you can catch a,000, 2,000, 3,000% gainers if if you time it right. So why not wait for these moments where you see the mass panic, buy an option, whether it's S&P or an individual stock, and wait until either the market bottoms or it tops out and then just throw the five grand in.
Where you can go you can you can flip it to 5 to 50, 520, 5 to 200.
In in in one go. It's it's kind of a risky way, but you have to realize that even if you have five grand, 5,000 and zero is not much of a difference. So, in order for you to get out of your situation, you have to take a risk. There is no $500 a week on a $5,000 account. It doesn't exist,
Right? So, that's how I did it is is I I waited for these big inflection points in the market. I started with six grand and but I understood that in order for me to to to really grow an account, this is the only way.
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Just to let's help explore this idea. When there is mass euphoria or mass panic or pain in the market. This is usually a very aggressive or very obvious trend. So, how do you now you're reversing what you know you're catching a falling knife in this case. How do you do that from a from a smart way or you know a way that is like okay I've got technicals backing me I've got something backing me not just like throwing it in hoping for the best. What would you look for in this kind of scenario of extremes?
Okay, that's a good question. So, I I'll give you kind of a real life example right now. So, April this year, you know, the S&P it it dropped to 4,800, right? And now we just touched 6,700. So, we're we've had over 40% gain, I believe, in 5 months, right? The NASDAQ is up 50% almost 50% in 5 months. And if you look at the history of the stock market, anytime you've seen a gain that big in in a short period of time, it's a pullback is coming. So from a macro standpoint, you have to understand that 50% gain in in an index at least you'll see a 10% pullback, right? And then you dive into technicals. Okay, what are the levels? Where are we at? And you have one level where this year before the tariffs were announced, S&P was at 6150, right? So right now we're up almost 40, you know, between 40 and 50% between the S&P and the NASDAQ. How much more can we go? Right? Right. And and we're starting to see some weakness the past two days. So if if the round numbers break the the market loves these psychological numbers, the these levels where 6600's a level, 6,700's a level, and if it starts to break with a catalyst, right? Meaning what type of news is coming? Does anyone knows know what the news is? No, no one knows. But you'll see the market act much different. meaning you might see 100 150 point red day in the S&P and that's your first sign of okay the trend has changed with a catalyst which is the news and once that occurs if you try to catch that knife you're going to get smoked so that's how I would look at the market is look at it from the macro understand the technicals and then the very last one is when you see very normal tra like retail traders average traders all on the same side meaning okay it's very bullish It's going to keep going higher. It's going to keep going higher. You have to fade the public,
Right? You have to go contrary to what people everyone else is thinking.
I spoke to a trader, a market wizard, uh, not too long ago, and he had exactly this strategy. He was like, um, he's always technically counter trending because he's countering the masses. But he was he gave this analogy of, you know, when something is at all-time highs, who's going to keep buying to keep pushing it if like 90% of the buyers are in through the COT report? if there's all of this, you know, lopsided behavior for it to keep going, more people needs to get in and where are those people? So, he was like, at some point it's got to break. And he did the same thing. He was like and he was like, ironically, on positive news, you might have that break. And then he has maybe his technical structures, but I was like, oh, that's a pretty non-contrarian, but it works cuz like then you then you have all the risk-reward, then you have the momentum on your side cuz people will panic get out and um, yeah, it was an interesting view and he's been doing it for multiple decades. Is this your bread and butter bread and butter strategy or is this like a specific use case?
Um, I would say it's it's one of my biggest ones. Yeah. Like I I would say 80% of the profit I make is is from these type of trades. And the way I I try to look at the market is it's kind of like either, you know, like soccer or baseball where you have a regular season and then you have the playoffs and the championship.
Normal days are the regular season. You're not going to swing for the fences every day. But in in certain markets, in certain market conditions, there's going to be this big opportunity and and you have to be ready for it. And during the regular season, you're prepping for that, right? You're taking what you can from the market, okay?
Might win and lose a little here and there.
But when this holy grail like is presented to you.
Most people aren't ready because they don't know what to look for, but you know, seasoned traders are waiting and waiting and waiting for this. And if if you're an aggressive trader, that's where you make most your money.
So would you would you argue or would you say that over your 14-year career that you would have majority of your gains in a year from a small window of time?
Yeah. Yeah. I would say um I would say in a given year there's probably there's probably about 8 to 10 weeks 8 to 12 weeks of of really good market conditions. All the other weeks are just, you know, you take what you can. Maybe one or two stocks run during the week, but strong momentum. I would say between eight and 12 weeks, and that's where most of the money is going to be made.
So, I guess the hard part is knowing where are those weeks going to be. So, what are the telltale signature signs? Is it just mass euphoria, mass pain? Then that's one category. Um, another one is is based around news, like different catalysts, right? So, obviously you have the Fed meetings, right? They they don't happen every single month, but the months that they do, you're always going to trade around those. Meaning, okay,
You let Powell, you know, you let the interest interest rate decision happen, let Powell talk, wait for the reaction, and then you trade it.
Versus most people will will place a bet before and hope that it goes in that direction. But the real money is made afterwards where that will set the trend for the next week or two weeks.
So, super interesting. And uh from a technical perspective, are you are you using any indicators? Are you using market structure? What are the telltale signs for your strategy?
So, so, uh, I don't use any indicators. When I first started, I did, but, um, as I got more experience, I I kind of lean a lot more into support and resistance.
Oh, yeah. Just simple uh, horizontal lines on the chart. And
Are you doing anything different to identify your key levels that maybe others wouldn't be, or is it the typical support and resistance people are used to?
It's it's very simple levels like it's there's no secret behind it. Um, it's anyone can find it on a chart but the the hard part about it is just waiting for it. So
Why keep it super basic? Why is your technical super basic when most people would be looking for the answers looking to make it as well not necessarily complicated but in their opinion educated and and stack the odds in their favor as like if I had this and then this and then this I've got so many things so surely I've got to be at a better position or better edge.
But you've kind of took it back to basics. Yeah. What is the benefit in doing so?
Um, trading alone is complicated enough and having all these different moving averages and RSI and all these different Fibonacci retracements, it it sometimes it can it can create a bias and it it can create a lot of noise uh when you're actually trading versus just having one or two levels for the week and understanding that okay, we're in this range. If these either of these levels break, then I'll consider taking a trade. And to me, that's the easiest and most simple way to view the market and using that along with the catalyst, right? The news, what data comes out or news is
There's no easier way to trade.
So, it's kind of like you have your key levels. There's probably a few of them.
Uh, can you break down what they would be? Is it is it just two touches qualifies? Is it? Is it like many touches? Is it around, you know, key numbers, round numbers? What are we doing to kind of give better odds or to more relevant support and resistance levels?
Yes. So I I would say for a resistance, the longer a stock or an index stays under that level, the more significant the level is. And same thing with support, the longer it stays above this level, the more significant that support is. So let's say like let's use Tesla for an example.
So Tesla this year, right, from February to the bottom, I think it dipped from in the 400s down to under or near 200.
Mh.
And and it tested 368 once in May and it couldn't get through. And so pretty much from February until September, it stayed under this 368 level. And you know that's 5 months of of of resistance level that it couldn't get through. And I think last week or the week and a half ago
Back it broke. Yeah.
It broke through it and it broke through with news. Elon bought I think a billion dollars worth of shares which is very bullish. Right. So you line up that with the technical level the 368 and the stock went from 368 to it touched 449 after hours today or or yesterday. So you know waiting for that if you waited for that level I mean you're catching a thousand percent gainer trading options.
Uhhuh.
Right. So so I called the same move but I did it with the boring stock way. So I'm maybe 20% up but you would be several hundred percent up in the move.
Yeah. Yeah.
Super interesting when when you are now so we spoke about the risk side and kind of sizing for zero. So this is kind of in a controlled way giving it giving your bias time to play out as opposed to just strict invalidations. What about on the flip side in the profit taking side? Um, is it now to the next key level uh and then you wait for a similar fashion or is it partially along the way?
So, this is how I think most people should sell their options on the way up is always sell half between 40 and 50%. And the reason why you do that is so if if if the option goes back to break even, you're still up. If it goes down 50%, you're now you're break even. So, psychologically, it it it protects you from just getting out all at once too early. And the sizing for zero helps with that. And then selling half at 50% will completely remove the emotion and and you'll be able to hold the other half and sell much higher.
And is this just a fixed rule? No matter what technicals are saying or news is just 50% take half.
Always. Yeah.
Okay.
Always.
When did you start doing that?
I started doing that probably about probably four or five years ago. I'd say five years ago. Yeah.
And in doing these two things of uh sizing for zero and 50% uh at 50%. Uh what what did that do to your trajectory in your career?
Yeah. So, it allowed me to number one be a lot more consistent and it it allowed me to actually hold the rest of it a lot higher. So, to I'm never really honestly I'm never really selling at 1,000% is very rare, but it's at least lets me hold to like two and 300% gain.
Okay.
Yeah.
Walk me through a a big loss because although uh there's parameters in place, it is still a rather aggressive strategy of philosophy that you have in the market which has worked in your favor. Um, but I'm sure at some point it's backfired.
Yeah. Um, shoot, there's a lot of losses. Uh,
Anything that stands out? Not not necessarily the biggest one in terms of dollar amount although it could be but I mean something that taught you something specific.
Yeah. So uh, let's see. I would say probably about a month ago, I lost probably about 600,000 trading S&P. So, you know, we all break rules. I I never told this story, but we all break rules. And uh, I was in an S&P uh 3DTE. So, I bought on Monday, expires on Thursday. And I was very confident in the move that the market would break higher, and it didn't. And I I the option dropped about 20% and ended up just buying a little bit more and then it dropped 50% and and I kept buying a little bit more on top of that and by the end of it uh, it just all went to zero.
As in you were adding to a loser and then everything. So it's super interesting because these kind of things that a year one trader, year two, year five trader, many people have the same thing even at the 10, 15, 20 year mark where it it will be less frequent but it still it still reappears. Um, what is your reaction like after?
So, so it for me it's it's uh, it's it's a situation where people think that once you get to a certain year that you never make a mistake again,
But
that situation I I was up a lot leading into that trade. So, it's a situation where I felt invincible. I'm like, "Okay, here we go. Let's let's run it up again. Let's let's hit another good trade." And after hitting that big of a loss in a day, pretty much like two days, um, I I had to really reassess and and and make sure I I didn't do that again anytime soon because you're going to do it again. You're going to make the mistake again.
But, uh, I I had to make sure I didn't get it to that scale trading options.
What did you do after that loss? Was it more rules in place? Was it just reflecting on it? Was it just journal it and break it down? What kind of things assist you especially at this part because you probably done all the easy stuff back at year five. What are you doing now that maybe you didn't do before?
Um, so I I withdrew um a lot out of the account. So um brought it down to a million in the account.
After the loss.
After the loss. Yeah.
Why is that?
Um, well the thing is like for example like let's say you have 10 million in an account, right? And you take a loss $500,000 loss. You tell yourself, well I have 9.5 million with leverage to to make it back.
You try and get it back right away.
Yeah. Cuz cuz like when you take a loss, you have the ability to trade futures or just buy shares, right? You don't have to necessarily make it back trading options. And like that's a whole another rabbit hole where, you know, I buy 200,000 shares. Okay, I just I just need a three-point bounce on this like $10 stock or $15 stock and I'll make it back. But um, sometimes it can balloon to a million dollar loss.
Yeah. So I guess you remove the option to do so was like let me bring my account all the way down and it helps you I guess eradicate the loss idea or the pain of it. It's an interesting framework. There's a lot of unique things that I'm hearing from you uh of ideas and again I've done a 100 plus episodes where some of these things I've never heard been done. Where are you getting these ideas or tools or techniques from? Do you have mentors or guidance or is it just trial and error and experimenting?
Um, it was all trial and error. like when I first started uh so I started in 2010 and even at that time trading wasn't like day trading wasn't really considered to be a way to make money. It was just like like gambling. So uh just watching kind of random YouTube videos and just kind of reading things on the internet but it was a lot of just buy and sell like try this try that this works that doesn't work and just trying to pivot from there.
You mentioned like you know you people think that you'll cross 10 years 15 years or whatever and you start to think okay now I've got it figured out but then still things will happen that would happen to a younger trader too. This makes me kind of feel what is confidence in trading like? Is it something that builds over time or is it just a temporary momentum and then you can go back to baseline? What is your experience with let's say confidence and maybe even ego which is kind of intertwined here?
Yeah, so so I would say confidence uh, it it can come and go. But fundamentally the more experience you have, the more confidence you have for the long term. But in the short term when you are taking losses, you can lose all of it and you you can even question yourself whether you should continue trading.
For example like in April when the market from February to April when the market took a big hit I mean at the at the lows my across all my accounts I think I was down about $12 million.
So.
From the tariff drop.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. Okay. Cuz cuz I own shares and you know I'm trading options and at the bottom I'm down 12 million.
And and for me I I question myself where I where I asked myself well
How did how did you let that happen? Number one and should you just quit while you're ahead? It's super interesting. You know I spoke to a guy who has had 40 plus years of experience and it's
A question I ask for these veterans. I like imposter syndrome, does that ever go away? And I guess even in your case, 15 years in and millions of dollars later, you still will reach a point where you're like, was it all luck? Has my time come to an end? What did you do after that? I need to hear what, what the hell went on when you're 12 million in unrealized hole to climb back out.
Yeah. That's a good question. So, so, so I, I'll tell you a quick story. So, so my mom called me, um, so my mom called me on April 7th, the day the market bottomed, right? So, so she gave me, I'll tell you a story. So she gave me 600 grand. My mom, well, she retired, she's like, "Hey, I have 600 grand and I want you to trade it for me, right?"
So I got it to about 850, and by April 7th, my mom called me. She said, "What's the account at?" I said, "It's at 630,000." So in her head, she said, "Oh my god, I'm down 220,000 from what you told me before." She said, "Take the money out and, uh, just, just send it back to me." And I, and I told my mom, I said, "If you sell right now, you're going to regret it." I said, "If you sell what I own in this, in this brokerage account, you're going to regret it." And she said, "Okay. Um, we'll give another week."
Week, week goes by, market starts to bounce. And I said, "Okay, just, just hold it for a little longer, right?" And, uh, today the account is over 2 million.
Wow.
Yeah. So, so I, I told my mom, I said, "If you sell today, you're going to regret what happened." And I told myself the same thing. I said, "If you sell everything that you own, you're going to regret, uh, selling on this day, too." And, uh, I ended up just kept buying more, like buying Robin Hood, Tesla, Nvidia, all these different stocks as the market kept going down because there's a part of me where I was stubborn and there's a part of me where I, where I tell myself, well, if I'm panicking too, then should, then the market must be bottoming at some, sometime soon. So fortunately, luckily, um, market bottomed and, you know, made it all back and, you know, we're doing much better now.
The first question that comes to my mind, if I was in that situation, and you know, you've got it under control, you have your trading psychology, you have your rules, you know what's going on. But if you tell your mom, I was at 800, now I'm kind of at 600. The natural thing is going to be, well, yeah, let's fix this. And the same thing is when you're up a large amount, she must be thinking, okay, we've been lucky here. Let's call it a day. Why even choose to tell her like these are the numbers and what's going on as opposed to sheltering from and then even protecting yourself, your own, uh, whether you doubt yourself or questioning her based on her opinions?
Yeah. Well, like she, she'll like per, like, periodically just like ask me, okay, hey, what's, how's the account doing? This and that. Um, and on the way down, I was like, "Oh, you know, accounts are fine. Account's fine." But like April 4th happened, like the market took a big dump. And then like when the seventh came, like that was a big, it, it really took a big hit. So I, I felt like I had to tell her like what the account was at.
But I, I really emphasize like, if you sell today, like it's, you're really going to regret it. And.
It's crazy, too, because that was the day the market bottomed, the seventh. Yeah. And and now that we have reached kind of a, a mass euphoria, you know, things are a crazy amount up. How are you positioning yourself where you've not only rode rode it all the way up, but now positioning yourself to a reversal could happen because the key levels, the resistance, kind of that contrarian, uh, strategy that you have, it works when there's stuff on the left to look at, but when there's all-time highs across the board, there's nothing on the left. How do you then break down that same idea of asymmetrical gain when there's nothing technically there?
Yeah. So, so the thing that my, my advice to anyone listening is you have to wait for the news because the market right now, even now, even today, the dips are still getting bought up on, on every time the market tries to break lower. So, on a technical side, there's, there's traders and there's people trying to go short, but without the catalyst, it, it will never be a sustained move. It might be a three-day pullback, like right now, five days. It could be seven days, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to see a 10% pullback in the market. You have to wait for that catalyst and, and that's the only way to to swing puts and, and to really protect yourself.
You know, everyone has a number, I think, when they start out where it's like, okay, if I reach 10 million, I can throw that all into the S&P, I can live a good life, make a million a year, you know, pull out half, you know, financially free. And, um, I'm sure you had that number too at the beginning, but I guess as you approached it, the goalposts moved. What keeps you going now? um, where you could just like d-risk everything and put it into bonds and gold and super, super low-risk things and the small yield will be massively meaningful and you can sustain the lifestyle that you have.
Yeah. So, so I would say like when I was young, I, I had a, you know, financial goal and there's a lot of materials like I wanted to own. And once I got that, I, I realized that life is actually much bigger than just myself, meaning there's a lot more responsibility, uh, to others and, and to helping people, whether it's, you know, your wife, your family, your friends. Uh, if, if you can get to a level where you're, you're making millions of dollars, you, the way I see it, you have an obligation to help others, whether it's through teaching them or just giving back. And, uh, that's how I, I live now. I, I, I, I've made enough money. I don't necessarily need any more money. But you have to have a higher purpose. You cannot just work for money when you know an extra million dollars won't change your life. If, if you let's say, if you have 30, an extra million, you're not going to move any differently. So you have to find another reason to live other than just a financial goal.
You know, you have quite unique, uh, just positions of mindset where you were very risky in the beginning and you were very detached from money even when you had none and that allowed you to be in the position that you are. But it's, it's kind of like the less you needed the money, the more you made and now you've made a lot. You still have the mindset of I don't need it and, and you'll probably continue to do so, which is quite ironic. The problem is most traders are completely the opposite to where they come in for money and they see the lifestyle on social media and it's, it's a very money-centric endeavor in its entirety through and through and they'll be, you know, every step by step of like the funded accounts because it's going to help me make more money and the leverage and it's all centered around this. What is a sensible way someone can start to break this down and, and try and be less detached? Uh, because that's what, what's been the biggest assistance for you?
Yeah. So, so I, I would say, uh, you have to look at money as just a tool. And if it's a tool, then what are you using it for, right? So for me, I, even early on, I, I used the money to help my family and help other people. So when you look at money that way, you're not gaining it, attaining it to just buy things and look cool, buy watches and cars. If, if that's your goal, sure, you could do it. But long-term success, I don't think it's possible long, like not just financially, but just from a psychological standpoint and just like spiritually too. So, um, yeah, you have to understand it's just a tool. It's just a number on a screen. And if you can understand that,
which is not easy, but if you can see it that way, you, you can really level up.
We've spoken about some big losses and, and elsewhere I've also heard about bigger losses you've had, 1.5 million for example, and, and the process after that. We, we've spoken about, you've spoken about, and I think a lot of people are familiar with sharing that experience of a painful loss, probably with just less zeros. Um, but what about the other side, which is a massive win? Because probably that's just as dangerous. And, and in a, from their perspective, the audience, it might be a case of a 10k payout. It's like, okay, I got phase one, I got phase two, I got funded and I made a payout and it's, you know, I can pay off some debts and, you know, it's a really successful triumphant moment. And usually the stats show the next month they've blown the account. And that is a very widespread stat amongst the prop space. Meaning to say a massive loss can be just as dangerous as a massive win. Can we share a moment in your career where you had a massive win and maybe if it, if it led to a demise or what you did to stop you leading to a demise?
Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you about a big win. I never shared this story. Um, and then we'll, we can go from there. So, it, it had this position wasn't options. It, it was me buying shares. So, 2021, late 2021, the market, uh, topped out and by the end of 2022, a lot of stocks were down 70, 80%. Right? So, the beginning of 2023, I bought 20,000 shares of Nvidia around $180 before they split.
Okay?
Right? So it's about close to $4 million position.
Okay.
So I, I told myself, I will hold this stock until it goes over a thousand, right? So in about a year and three, four months, Nvidia reported earnings in May 2024. The stock gaped through a thousand. I sold everything at 1,040. So I made 17 million on one trade.
My goodness. Wow.
So that was my biggest trade ever. And that trade alone, I made more money on that one trade than I did probably my first 10, 11 years of trading. So that's a testament that everything that you do during your whole trading journey, it, it will set you up for one potentially massive, massive win that that can set you up for the rest of your life. So that's why I say, you know, size for zero when that puts you in a mindset to where you can hold things much longer. And even when I was in that trade, I mean, you're up five million, you're up seven million, you're up 10 million. I still held it. And that was even harder. That was harder than selling at 17 because I got lucky. It just gapped through. It was at like nine something. It just gapped 100 and something points. But holding from 10 million until the 17 was, was the hardest thing.
Walk me through your day that day where it gapped through and how you woke up and the moment to you closing it out and what were the feelings and everything that you went through cuz there's not many people on earth that have experienced this.
Yeah. So, so I would say it's a big sense of relief.
Relief because I'll be honest, you, it's hard to sleep at night knowing you have such a huge P&L.
An open P&L where news could come at any moment. But the thing that made me hold so long is, is a very simple idea. Is okay, well, the whole market's down. Stocks are down 80%, 90%. And if you had to choose two companies to buy, what would you buy? Well, Nvidia is down 80%. It's, it's the leading chip company in the world. The CEO is is a rock star, right? So I bought that. I bought Amazon too. It wasn't as big of a trade, but, you know, Amazon's one of the biggest companies in the world. It's down 70%. And you do you think it's going to come back? The answer is very simple. It's yes. How far it goes, nobody knows. But you know, when a market makes a major crash over a long period of time, took a year and a half for the market to to come back. Um, that's what made me hold the trade. But,
yeah, so when you closed out all the positions and it's secure now, the relief, I, I can understand the feeling. But did it come with a lot of celebration, you know, just happiness, you know, the idea of money buys happiness kind of analogy that people throw.
This is a peak of your career and what did that day feel like, that moment?
You know, I'll be honest with you, um, it was more of a sense of like, you earned it. Like I, I wasn't necessarily like ecstatic happy because what are you going to do with that much money? Like you can't spend it all. Like I, I had no like financial like things to buy. Like I, I might, I think I bought a watch, but other than that, it was just more of like, okay, you got to stay grounded because your next trade, you could give it back if, if you don't think straight.
Because the game never ends, right? You, whether you secure $1,000 trade, $10,000, a million dollar trade, you're always going to be in a position where if, if you have a lapse of judgment, you could lose it all. And even at my level, like, you know, I, I try not to think about money of like, think about money from the sense of it makes me happy because I secured a win. It's more of, okay, well, I have more capital to work with to do this and that.
Mhm.
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When I look at people's, uh, prop firm accounts and their equity curve, a lot of them will have this big win, u, relatively speaking. And the behavior after that is just, it slowly goes back to where it began and then another big win and it slowly goes back. And when you see people that blow an account, it's rarely just like go straight down to to the drawdown limit. It's like, it's, it's, it's a slow trickle and then a big jump and then a trickle and a jump. Meaning to say after a big win, the behavior after that is usually worse than prior. Um, and you're aware of this, which is, which is what you just mentioned. What did you do after such a big win? Did you take time off? Did you, did you change your rules a bit to not give it back? Because I think that's the main issue that traders have. A winning trade is guaranteed. It's the losses that give it all back. That's the real issue.
Um, I'll be honest, you, I just traded like, I just, I just continued like normal. Yeah.
Just nothing really changed. Um, that, that situation was very unique. Like the market crashing like that. It happens lately every couple years, like 2020, 2022, 2025. Yeah.
And, uh, I, I was just ready for it, you know, like it happened in 2020. I, I capitalized on it, you know, thank God. Um, 2025, I was ready too. I mean, it, it hurt on the way down, but like I, I was buying more and more.
But, uh, yeah, so really interesting. I, I want to talk about some, uh, trading stats, KPIs in the sense of what is a typical win rate that you'll hold and does it fluctuate over time? Do, do you target it in any way of like, this is a win rate I need to maintain or do you take what you're given from the market?
Yeah. So, so I would say, um, win rate isn't really that important. Like mine, uh, is probably around like 65 to 70%. But the win rate isn't important because it's all about your net P&L. Meaning, I, I know traders that have their win rates probably 20 to 30%, but, but they're crushing it because their, their winning trades out perform their losing trades by a wide margin. They, they don't trade like me where I don't do the stop-loss, but they cut their losers quickly and, and they allow their, their winners to just keep running.
So I, I would say the net P&L is, is what is, is the most important thing.
And how often are you taking a position in the market? Um, uh, which kind, like how often would you take a trade? Let's say.
Okay. Um, I would say I'm probably taking between eight to 14 trades a week.
Oh, it's pretty active.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Um, how do you keep an eye across the market and make so many decisions or per day technically? Um, and still kind of be, be knowing that these are all A+ setups? Because if you're maintaining a rather higher win rate, can that many good opportunities come around that often?
Um, certain environments, you have to adjust your strategy. Meaning, like there's A+ setups, some, I guess are better than others, but you have to adapt to what's being offered to you. So in a certain environment, this might be the A+ setup versus in another environment where let's say there's a big inflection point, there's also an A+ setup for that specific environment. So, um, for me, you have to take what's given.
And, and I try to take the best opportunity with whatever the market is, is telling me.
So, and, and because you said kind of the hot period of the year is 8 to 12 weeks, that means for like 40 weeks of the year, you're taking what you can get and, and probably a little bit flat, maybe some good periods, maybe some drawdowns, but, you know, not, not a whole lot of action. How do you exercise, I guess the word is patience? Um, is there any rituals or routines, meditations you do, or is it just having a good life, having a busy life to know when to walk away from the screen?
Yeah. So I would say, uh, I, I meditate every day, uh, to just force myself to sit still because when you're, when you're at the computer and, and you have access to capital, you see the market moving, you're, you get very tempted to just see what happens, right? That's, that's usually the start of a, the downfall is you enter a trade and you say, "Okay, let's just see what happens."
So I, I try to meditate in the morning about 30 minutes in the morning and then 30 minutes at night just to force myself to just sit there and do nothing. And I found over the years it helps me be able to sit at the computer and just do nothing too.
So, so it's like you're training yourself to not take action. The meditation is like going to the gym and then game day is, is being in front of the screen.
Exactly. Yeah.
Is there any specific types you will do or is it just sitting there kind of being silent?
Just sitting there. Yeah. No, no, like there's no real technique to it other than just, uh, you know, you sit Indian style and you close your eyes and you just try not to think about anything.
And, and how have you been practicing this for majority of your career?
Um, I would say, yeah, pretty much almost since the beginning. Yeah.
Do, do you ever feel like because I've, I've dabbled with meditation, but, but I would do it for like 10 minutes, maybe 15, and it gets really rough to be honest because thoughts fly around. But here you're writing off an hour a day, every day towards meditation. Does it ever creep to your mind and saying like, I could be doing a lot with this time. Um, you know, I could be doing other things with this one hour a day, whether it's money related or business related or, uh, just family and, and friends and socializing, but you yet to keep out of 24 hours in a day, one hour every single day towards meditation.
Yeah. So, so I, I would look at it as like going to the gym. Like you go to the gym to build muscle, to stay physically in shape. The meditation is a mental exercise. Cool.
Right. It, it keeps your mind sharp. It keeps, keeps your thoughts, uh, compartmentalized to where you know what you're thinking and you're not controlled by your thoughts. And, and that's part of what meditation does. Is most people when a thought comes into their mind, they act on it, right? Versus when you meditate, you're aware of what you're thinking about and you're able to analyze it. And that helps, that helps me when I'm actually trading.
It's very interesting because as humans, as, as smart as we may think we are, we are very simple in the sense of we have an animalistic brain. And one of that is like your thoughts today are 90% the same as your thoughts yesterday and, and they will just fly up in your head. And another thing is like your inputs create your outputs where if you, if you are just watching, do scrolling on TikTok versus always reading books, you'll have different inputs, you'll have different emotions, different thoughts, different behaviors, different outcomes. So it's, it's really inputs to outputs, but what happens in the middle is, is what you're trying to control here. But I want to speak about this inputs portion where, you know, whenever I go on X and I look at things related to the stock market, there's strong opinions for both sides and it's very easy to get skewed one way or the other. How do you try and stick to your own bias and not get too influenced by, you know, political commentaries and, and people on X that are experts and so forth, um, to not cloud your judgment, or do you use it as a sentiment gauge?
Oh, that's a good question. So, I would say, um, day-to-day, especially while you're trading, uh, I wouldn't look at any social media. Meaning, okay, you might follow people on X, but if you're in a live trade and it, you're losing the trade, you're going to start looking on X for that bias of why it will work, right? And vice versa, right? If, if, if you're on the opposite side of the trade and you start reading, you know, what people are saying, you might get out of it because people are starting to get bullish. So I would say for myself, I don't watch anyone on X. Like I don't ever start reading people's opinions because, uh, it creates bias.
Yeah.
Right. And, uh.
Yeah. Cool. But I want to refer to some of your tweets because your X is obviously a very big platform that you built for yourself. But also you have a lot of thoughts and it's a treasure trove and I don't usually have the luxury to really explore someone's mind from a day-to-day perspective. So I've picked some tweets that you've put out. So, I've got 6% battery left, so I'll try and make the best that I can. But, uh, one of them that stood out to me was, "I don't think people understand how meditation before the open can change my edge." Kind of what we're referring to. Five minutes before, five minutes of silence erases impulses and reactions. The, the charts don't change. No strategy, but I did. Mental clarity is a trading asset. You can't buy, you must build it. So, off the back of what we're saying here about meditation, um, but I want you to kind of explore this erasing of impulses and reactions. Have you had days where you haven't done the meditation, um, and, and has led to a negative outcome? Is it almost a reactive kind of thing where if you do it for a day, it's a better day? If you don't do it, it's not a good day, or is it something that builds over time that you build this muscle and resilience?
Um, I, I would say it builds over time, but it, it, it can work, I would say, fairly quickly. Like I would say if you can do five minutes a day for a month, that's it, it's pretty impressive. It's not easy to do. Even five minutes is not easy for a lot of people.
Yep. You know, but, um, over time if you build like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, when you sit at the computer, you feel like you can do anything. Like I could sit here for three days and not take a trade. That, that's the mindset you get into and it stops you from getting jumping into these impulsive trades where there's no, there's no trade there.
Okay, the next tweet that I have from you was an interesting one. It says, "Everything you knew about trading is wrong." Nice hook. Uh, being right is overrated and unnecessary. You could have a 30% win rate and as long as your wins outweigh your losses, you're in a good position. I went from chasing win rate to hunting expectancy. This is what I want to focus on. Hunting expectancy. The results, my P&L became steadier whilst I slept. Uh, change the metrics, change your life. So what is, first of all, expectancy and how do you focus on that as opposed to win rate, which is a very obvious, clear thing and, and you can also link it to your confidence. Your confidence kind of follows your equity curve. Uh, so a steadier, uh, equity curve through hunting expectancy. What does that mean?
So basically, uh, with, with the win rate, people are almost chasing something that doesn't exist. Meaning, you're, you're looking for trades that aren't there just to get your percent up.
Versus hunting expectancy, you're, you're actually waiting. Number one, you're waiting for the right trades and you're ready for every outcome. So you're always looking for a positive expectancy for the trade. So, uh, that's basically what it is. Is, uh, sorry, I kind of blanked out.
So, can, can we first of all explore what is expectancy? What, how are you referring to as this term expectancy?
Um, so basically, it's, uh, the outcome of the trade, right? Regardless of whether it's a win or loss, you're, you're, you're ready for for every, um, every outcome.
Okay.
So.
Interesting because I think a lot of people do focus on the win rates only. Yeah.
Um, this one is a big tweet and it's, uh, "If I died tomorrow, here's everything I would like you to know about my trading. Protect capital, size for zero, live outside P&L. Trading gave me freedom, but only because I treated it like a business." Uh, and then you go on to say a few other things. So, I want to focus on first of all, the three things, your three biggest philosophies in the market, which we've touched on all of them, uh, but not necessarily the last one of living outside P&L and then connecting later to treating it like a business. If we could explore, elaborate on these things.
Yeah. So, so living outside the P&L, right? If most people when they have a bad day, you, you know they have a bad day and when they have a good day, they're very excited. They're, they're in a good mood. But you have to be better than that. Meaning, in order for you to continue to level up, there can be no emotions tied to how much money you make or how much you lose. And once you detach from that, that's how you get better and that's how you trade more objectively.
Because even when I first started, yeah, like when I would have a big day, I, I would be very happy, you know, you go out, you spend, you spend the money, but then when you have a bad day, you don't want to talk to anybody.
So, so once you can detach from that, that's how you basically become a better trader.
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What I want to explore with this one is you, you know, when you have treating trading like a business, the first thing that comes to my mind is, okay, you have your, your monthly profit, your quarterly profit, and then you have your annual profits and, uh, different companies will take profit out of their business in different ways. Whereas trading is very quicker feedback loops because you can have a big win that lasted two days or if you have a three-day expiry, so you got a huge chunk of revenue, but the week or the month or the quarter is not over. So what is today's profits in the market can pay for future losses? So, as you kind of grow an account, how do you know how to correctly pull out to be profit that you can spend freely versus, okay, I got to keep building a buffer and grow this account for future opportunities? Because it's, it's a position, at least myself, I'm always toying with them. Like, if I take it out and spend it, well, I'm not, I'm no longer growing the account. And if I do this too often, then my account won't be as big as it could be, and then those bigger wins won't come in the future. So, it's kind of like a chicken and egg situation. But, you got to treat it like a business on the less, which what your advice is. How do you scale out, uh, and take profits?
That's a good question. So, I would say when you s hit a certain threshold, let's say you start with 10,000 and you get to 50, I would take out 30,000 and put it into a different account. And the reason why you want to do that is because you're not familiar with how to trade a $50,000 account. And you will start making trades that you wouldn't normally do. Meaning, to get from you getting from 10 to 50, you had a system in place where you're taking $500 trades, $1,000 trades, but all of a sudden you have $30,000 in profit. You might take a $10,000 trade that you would never normally do because this is so unfamiliar to you. So to keep yourself grounded and be systematic with the way that you're, you're, you're trading, you have to take some out and put it into another account and trade it differently.
Ah.
So you'll have different accounts with different strategies.
Exactly. Yeah. And, and why not do all of it in one, uh, one account?
Because, because even at, at any level, you will hit numbers you're not, you don't, you are not familiar with and emotion gets, it gets tied to that. Yes.
And it clouds your judgment because once you get to 50, you tell yourself, I'm going to get to 100, and all it takes is one trade with a $20,000, um, position size, and then that's the trade that could ruin you.
Okay. And the last one I have is along the tweets. Uh, I just want to read through the main portion of it. Uh, but you're basically referring to how the market earlier on humbled you. Uh, "The markets humbled me with a red week that felt catastrophic. I could have quit. Instead, I built a set of rules. Incremental size only after X consecutive clean months and strict drawdown limits. The rule felt conservative and even boring, but five years later is the reason my account survived blowups while others didn't." So the, the main portion of this tweet is incremental size increases only after X consecutive clean months. So usually when people, let's say, are trading a prop account of their own capital, let's say you've got a rule of 1% risk per trade. As your account grows, you got to your 10% up, your risk per trade is going to increase over time. So it's always a, you know, growing risk, whereas you're doing incremental based on performance. Why is that the route to size up as opposed to just, I got more money to play with. I'm always doing 1%. Let me grow my risk accordingly.
So, so with sizing up, you have to size up in a way where you don't get more anxious and more emotion attached. Meaning, if you're trading 10 contracts and you jump to 20 after two months, two months of consistency, most times people don't know how to handle that. And what I try to teach is, okay, if you go from 10 contracts to 12, and you feel nothing, then, then you're sizing up properly. If you go from 10 to 13 after, you know, three months, then that's okay, too. But if you jump from 10 to 20, you will stop out of that, that trade nine times out of 10.
Okay?
So, it needs to feel like you're not sizing up. That's the way to do it in the beginning. And over time, once you get more experience and more bankroll, you'll know what that number is. Everyone, like I said, like with, with losing, everyone has that threshold of where once you hit this number, you can't trade anymore. And it's the same thing with sizing up. Everyone knows that number to where if you get beyond this number, you can't think straight. So, just be very slow with, with the way you're, you're sizing your positions.
Um, to wrap up the episode, I want to focus on two areas. Number one is the prop space in general. Now, I guess you have no need for it. Uh, but it also wasn't a tool around back in your day when you're first starting out. But now it's a tool that every trader turns towards, uh, for the sake of, uh, outsized gains from small capital, which is kind of your philosophy of like, you got to bet on yourself and you got to go big because you don't have another option. With that philosophy in mind, do you think the prop arena is the best way to deploy it, or is it kind of a, cuz most people do lose in the end. So, is it kind of a scam that you could avoid?
Um, my opinion, I would say, uh, most people should avoid it because they treat it like a casino.
Right?
They say, "Okay, well, um, you know, I could pay $5,000 for this course and learn the right way, or, you know, I put $500 in this prop firm account and all I got to do is pass these, whatever these tests, and, and I'll get funded."
But by the end of the year, I mean, they bought 15 accounts, 20 accounts, and they learned nothing.
Yeah.
So, I would say, I would say no. Yeah. That, the prop firm spaces, uh, came after my time. I, I didn't have an opportunity to, to try it, but, uh, from what I've heard from a lot of people, it's, it's like, it's like a casino kind of.
Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it encourages people to gamify it because you have this reset button. So, it's kind of how you said earlier on of how you protect yourself because you don't want to be in a situation where you have access to the money in your account and you just take random trades and just see how it goes. I think that see how it goes mentality goes for prop traders where they just buy an account quickly, blow it, buy another one, just to see how it goes. It just encourages bad behavior because now, let's say you do make big payouts and you want to go to another space, deposit and use your own capital. You don't have that, uh, reset button anymore. You got bad habits on your side. And, and more importantly, you've never climbed out of drawdown because you blew the account to bought another one. When in real life, the drawdown, you got to climb out of. So, it's interesting.
Uh, and, and the last, uh, question that I always ask that I wanted to give you the opportunity also was, you got 14 years of experience and multi-eight figures, uh, behind you, and you got a trader that's maybe watching that is maybe six months in, and there's a big bridge that I want to try and gap. What would be some, uh, major advice you'd like to pass on to them?
Um, so I would say, you have to give yourself time to develop. Don't have such high goals in the beginning financially to where if you don't hit this number by a certain day, then you'll, you will disappoint yourself and you'll quit. So focus on learning. Focus on the process first. And don't be so outcome-oriented because we're all on different journeys. Our timelines of reaching success, it's different for every single person. And, and you have to understand that we're, we're all different people. And just be patient with yourself.
Beautiful stuff, man. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful way to end it cuz we've spoken about big numbers and a lot of triumph, but a sense of grounding yourself to connect to reality, a wonderful way. Uh, Brando, thank you very much for being here, driving down from Vegas to Arizona to be here for us today, and a wonderful opportunity. Thank you, man.
Thank you for having us.