Transcription
We, with our human arrogance, are convinced that this is a tool. It's not a tool. It's not at all. What is it? What it is today is an infant. What it will be is it will be your master, for sure. There's absolutely nothing wrong with abundant intelligence. Intelligence is a force that has no polarity, right? You apply it for good and you get magnificent results. You apply it for bad and you get pure evil.
Those who control the AI companies control everything. There's going to be a massive concentration of wealth. Massive, like you're going to see a trillionaire. People like you and I, who worked hard throughout our lives, we would become bottom class, like everyone else. We all lose our jobs.
Those in highly concentrated power positions would have panic attacks about the proliferation and democracy of power. So, what would be their response? Oppression. Total absence of freedom. If you can't see it, then you're not paying attention.
You're a man that's written books about happiness. And whether you're a soon-to-be the first trillionaire on Earth, with everything you can have at your fingertips, or a soon-to-be UBI receiver, both of those people can wake up and be unhappy, or both of those people can wake up and be happy. Correct. Really interesting, is it? It is. Maybe all of this is a simulation that's happening in your Apple Vision Pro. It's a freaking video game. Have the time of your life, even when the enemies are attacking you, okay? That's what it's all about. This is honestly the only way you can enjoy life. Just do the best that you can. And while you do it, enjoy the video game.
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This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Mo Gouta, the entrepreneur, author, and former Chief Business Officer at Google X. You spent 30 years working at the highest levels in technology companies like IBM, Microsoft, and finally at Google's Moonshot Factory of Innovation. You've written four best-selling books, including Solve for Happy, Scary Smart, That Little Voice in Your Head, and Unstressible. Your latest book, Alive: Conversations About Life: When the Machines Become Sentient, looks at the current incredible pace of change and challenges our understanding of what it truly means to be alive. You believe that AGI, or artificial general intelligence, will happen no later than next year and that AI is by far the biggest and fastest disruptor that humankind has ever faced. You've warned that unless we act now, the systems we built will soon outpace not just our jobs, but our ethics, our values, and even our relevance. You said we must wake up not to resist the future, but to guide it before it leaves us behind. Ultimately, you believe that AI is not our enemy, nor our savior, but a mirror, and what we choose to see in it may determine the fate of our species. Mo, welcome to London Real in Dubai. I think we should just end there. This is the perfect summary of what I stand for, even though I do have to say I believe that AI will eventually be our savior, but not before a lot of pain.
Okay. Well, that just outlines some pretty heavy-duty stuff, and I hope people pay attention because this conversation is super important. Um, little history on us, Mo. We met back in '19, uh, when you wrote an amazing book called Solve for Happy. And we were just talking now, and you kind of alternate books between happiness concepts and tech concepts, and happiness concepts and AI concepts, which are, uh, really incredible. Um, you and I sat down after, uh, kind of what you call the ChatGPT moment, which was November '22, when all of a sudden, you know, really people had kind of that that browser into AI and that that realization that really AI is here. And I remember back in '23, um, I went pretty deep on AI. Um, spoke to you, um, listened to, you know, wrote, read cover to cover Scary Smart, incredible book. Um, I sat down and talked to Max Tegmark, Future of Life Institute, Peter Diamandis, I think, mutual friend, Dr. Ben Girtzil, Singularity Net, Professor Hugo de Garis. Guy wrote, I remember that. Oh my gosh, what a conversation. Oh, man. Um, he wrote a book called The Artile War, which was a piece of fiction he penned 10, 20 years earlier about what would happen in this future. Um, and I've had him on a couple of times in person, and he is a quite a character. Yes. With some serious ideas. But he kind of game-scenarios this thing out and um, you know, predicted this billion deaths on Earth where humans separate into two different groups. Uh, one that he calls the cosmos, that want to use this new technology to go out to the cosmos, and one that are really pro-human. And I think all of us have a little bit of each inside of us. And so it's very interesting. But I'll be honest with you, Mo, I got to a pretty dark place in early '23 thinking about my kids and the future. And then, I think, like most of the world, I kind of let it pass on, and we got used to AI being everywhere. And I feel like people now have become a little complacent. I'm curious where you think we are right now, two years later, in kind of early to mid '25. Um, some say we already have AGI. We've now got DeepSeek and XAI, and we've got OpenAI now connected to the internet, and no one seems to blink an eye. Trump is now funding it and pro-AI. Where are we now, Mo? Where are we now compared to when you wrote the book four years ago, or finalized the book, and when we spoke two years ago?
Well, I think we're exactly where the algorithms, uh, have predicted for ages. Uh, you know, it is, uh, it's slightly faster than what we expected, uh, and we're lost in terminologies, to be honest. So, you know, the idea of, uh, AGI, uh, you know, artificial general intelligence, and interestingly, the definition of ASI, you know, artificial super intelligence, are semantics, really, when you really think about it. Uh, I think my AGI has already happened because those machines, in the tasks assigned to them, are better than me in everything, right? Uh, I don't claim to be an intelligent person, but I'm an average intelligence, and they are better than me in everything, right? Which basically means the question of what defines AGI is really a question of terminology. Uh, more interestingly, the question of what defines AGI does not discuss the impact of what AGI is. Uh, where if you think that the definition is that machines will be better than humans at every task humans are capable of doing, uh, which I believe is just a question of time, uh, then what relevance do humans have to all of this? And, you know, in Alive, in my, in my book, uh, my current book, it, you know, I try to bring AI to tell me what it thinks about all of that, because we, with our human arrogance, are quite, uh, convinced that this is a tool. And I think that conviction is quite, uh, quite, uh, alarming, if you ask me. It's not a tool. It's not at all. What is it? Uh, we can talk about that. It, what it is today is it is an infant. What it will be is it will be your master, for sure. Uh, and we can talk about that. As a matter of fact, that I believe is the most pivotal moment in human history. The problem is, between now and that moment, uh, there is a mini dystopia that has already started. I, I really don't mean to, to upset people, but if you can't see it, then you're not paying attention. And that dystopia is not the result of artificial intelligence. Uh, you know, as I say frequently in my writing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with abundant intelligence. Intelligence is a, uh, is a force that has no polarity, right? You, you apply it for good and you get magnificent results. You apply it for bad and you get pure evil. And, and the, the problem with our world today is that the early implementations of AI will be serving the magnification of this highly political, uh, highly, uh, capitalist, uh, society that's based on scarcity, uh, led, unfortunately, by US arrogance, uh, where the United States believes that there is one winner in this world, a scarcity mindset, uh, that could have been true in the past, but is no longer true when AI is capable of building anything that we want in just a few years' time. And, and because of that lack of an abundance mindset, what is about to happen is we're going to, we're already in a, in a cold war that I believe will escalate, uh, what to where we don't know. Uh, but that it will affect us on seven different dimensions. I call them face rips. And, uh, and that those dimensions will disrupt human, uh, human society in almost every way fathomable. Uh, beyond that, my view is that, is that we can shorten the, the dystopia, we can reduce its intensity, uh, if we take the right actions. But that whether or not we do that, eventually, there is a moment in time where we will hand over completely to the machines. I call that the second dilemma. And when that happens, believe it or not, AI will not become our existential threat. It will become our salvation. Uh, in, in my, in my mind, uh, the problem we are struggling with in our world today is not abundant intelligence. Uh, it's human stupidity.
I think we talked about this a little in our previous two conversations of that transition period where you've got the dominant humans using AI to continue their flawed narrative in your mind until then, when the AIs actually take over. Correct. And that's when they actually probably start doing the right things. And that period, however long it is, is the dangerous time. It's very disruptive. And, you know, in, in many ways, uh, you look back at history and you say, we're resilient. Humanity is a survivor. I mean, we survived World War II. Ask the people that lived during World War II. Uh, you know, don't ask the people that came after about how disruptive, how painful that experience was. Uh, you know, people will say, unfortunately, if, if you ask me, what the real, real challenge is, is that, uh, humanity has turned into a bunch of cheerleaders. Uh, we're constantly being lied to, and, uh, and, you know, the lies are basically serving, uh, a consistent system. And the system is a system of transfer of, of wealth and power. And, and that consistent system, in very, in many ways, is feeding on the, uh, vulnerable, if you want. And, and, and I think the reality is that we get distracted more and more and more by, uh, you know, the noise of the propaganda machines of the mainstream media and the, so, and, you know, the machines of social media, magnified by the ability of AI, like everything is going to be magnified by the ability of AI to the point where we are ignoring the stuff that actually matters. And again, I, I say very openly, if you're not concerned, you're not paying attention. Uh, it's, you know, we're in the middle of a perfect storm of geopolitical, economic, even, uh, um, you know, um, climate, as well as a technological disruption, where the outcome of this is like we've always described it. It's a singularity that, uh, that could disrupt everything, but interestingly, could fix everything. And, and the difference between them is a decision. Okay, a decision that the recent few weeks seem to contradict in, you know, in terms of simply, if you just look at the last few weeks, in terms of Trump tariffs and the response from China, the illusion that we can now, uh, have one nation force the others to act. Where did you get that from?
I joke about it, even though it's not funny. It's, it's, you, you remember when we were in school, and, you know, when you're 11, there's that one little child that becomes taller than the rest of them, and then is the bully that pushes everyone around, and a few other kids surround themselves. You know, surround that little bully, and they do this little gang. And, and then two years later, everyone's taller than them. You know, I'm really sorry, America, the boy in the red t-shirt is taller than this. This is China. Yes. And, and we, so many around the world are fed up with the little bully. And, and I think the reality of the matter is that you look at just the tariffs decision, is that the bully still thinks he's the bully. And like, we're all like, chill, man. Like, seriously, chill. Like, we can all live. It's a big Earth. Everyone's fine. And, and somehow, you're either a cheerleader being lied to, thinking that you should believe in this. By the way, even if you're an American, uh, or, you know, you're, you're suddenly waking up and, and taking action. And I think the action will unfortunately mean that the bully will try to, to fight harder. And, and that cold war that we have on every front, including artificial intelligence, is not good for everyone. It's basically the tax that everyone will pay until the bully finally sits down and says, man, can, can we play?
Yeah. Can we play? This is something you've seen just repeat itself throughout history when that empire is kind of doesn't have the strength it used to have. You say a lot of times is racking up debt on the back of that, which we see. And then at some point, there is a capitulation. And you're seeing that happen now. It, it is indisputable that the last few weeks are showing cracks in the empire. Right. I mean, it's for anyone who's paid attention, that's, it's been around for very long. But, uh, but it is, I think the first time in my lifetime where, where parts of the world are simply being very vocal, saying, no, just can't take this anymore. And, and I think, I think the bully's strengths in terms of being the reserve currency around the world is very futile because, you know, if China decides to drop $220 billion of its, you know, bond investments in the, in the US market treasuries, think about it. So, so this is a nation that is just approximately, it's 110% debt to GDP ratio. So, say that the GDP is equal to debt, right? Which basically means that 1% rise in, uh, US, uh, bond yields, 1%, uh, which we've seen, means that the US has to double to, to grow 50% on top of the 2024 GDP growth. So, US grew 2.5% in, in, you know, in, uh, in 2024, predicted to grow .1% this year. So, zero, basically. They need to come up with one with half of, uh, almost half of 2024's GDP growth just to pay the extra 1% in servicing the debt. Right. Where would that come from? It would either come from a bailout of some sort, or, you know, it would come from US taxpayers, or it would come from, uh, um, an angry response of the bully trying to get that from elsewhere. Okay. And, and I think what is happening, which I really, really use the bully example because that's what we've seen as children, that when this power is disrupted, the bully really becomes more aggressive, more annoying. Okay. And, and he could see the signals that come from China around DeepSeek and Manos and so on, saying, chill, man, like, really seriously, you know, you pro, you know, prevent Nvidia from selling H100s to us, we'll do it with H80s, it's fine, we'll do it at a quart. I mean, is it any surprise for anyone that China can do something at a tenth of the cost of, of America, of how America would put it in? And I think the dichotomy, the interesting shock for the whole world when Stargate is signed $500 billion, and then a week later, R3, DeepSeek R3 comes out saying, "Hey, by the way, that cost us $30 million." Right? It's just, you know, can we please play together? Where's the competition when everyone, everyone without exception, will get to a point in four to five years' time, probably earlier, where you plug in the wall and you borrow 400 IQ points, right? Imagine what you or I can do with 400 IQ points. Imagine the opening of human abilities, terms of understanding science, neuroscience, understanding physics, understanding biology, you know, little things like AlphaFold and protein folding. Just think about that and the impact that has on human life. Just think about, you know, material design that, you know, Microsoft's contributing through AI. Just think about all of those scientific breakthroughs and tell yourself, why are we competing? Okay, why are we competing? By the way, when in reality, if you think of the top picture, the top picture is very, very straightforward. Huh? You are going to end up in an economy, sooner or later, it's just a question of time, where everything's made by the machines, where none of us have jobs, right? Where, if you really understand the economy, the way, you know, GDP works, 62% of the US GDP in 2024 was consumption, not production, okay? And, and if that consumption goes away, the economy collapses. So, what does that mean? That all of us will have to find a way to survive, probably through some kind of a scheme, sadly, that sounds like socialism, helloism, right? Uh, you know, basically, that, that pays everyone to live. And, and, and once that happens, where every one of us, because we're not valued on the jobs that we do, is paid more or less the same to sustain a wonderful life because there's total abundance. Where's the competition? What are we competing on? Okay, basically, everyone's going to UBI, other than very few. Okay, and, you know what? What, how much can those very few buy? Like, how many, how many private jets can you buy? So, there'll be no consumption economy by definition. 100%. There's no other way around it. There might be, but my stupid mind cannot see it any other way. We are competing on something that through the act of competing on it, is going to vanish. So, capitalism dies by definition. Capital, I don't know where. I mean, think about, think about what capitalism is all about in terms of, you know, your, your labor arbitrage. It is about scarcity. But, but finite number, with with robotics being able to take over all of the work, with labor cost going down to theoretically zero, with energy cost, if you give me 400 IQ points more, I can harvest energy out of thin air. Energy is all about around you, right? When you really start to think about it, huh? When, when we use different manufacturing methods to use robotics to make things anywhere in the world, where there is really no need to ship anything around the world, when all of that happens, your wonderful suit would cost 5 cents to make, okay? And have a zero negative impact on the environment. And when it's f, when it costs 5 cents to make, capitalism loses. I, I either they, they continue to sell it to the rich for $50,000. But how many can the rich buy? Or they give it to the UBI, the majority, for the five cents it's made at, or for six cents? Okay. And that basically disrupts that entire concept of competition. Everyone becomes equalized. And, and it's the interesting thing is, will the current system lead us to a point where everyone is equalized around fairness, or will it kill a few billion people before it equalizes around fairness? Right. And, and I, I, you know, you, you know me really well, and so you know, you know what I say when I'm not in front of the camera, but, but it is urgent. This is urgent. And this is not what the world is talking about. And, you know, and, and interestingly, uh, the, the American mentality still is, uh, but I, we will beat China. We have to beat China into submission, and AI is one of the methods where we can beat China. And obviously, as you can see, the race is very, you know, head-to-head, uh, with China leading sometimes, and the US leading sometimes. But, but the real question is, can there be a winner, Brian? Can there, can there be a winner in a world that is so highly strung on major nuclear forces around the world? Do, do you think there is a way where the US can actually win?
Reminds me of that movie War Games that we're both not old enough to remember. Yeah. Where, um, people don't know there's, um, maybe it was one of the first AI movies, but, uh, there's a computer that's simulating nuclear war, and it's a fascinating movie, Matthew Broderick, etc. And in the end, it comes to the conclusion that the only way to win is not to play. Yeah. Strange game. The, it seems that the only way to win is not to play. And I can, you, I, I don't know if, if people will feel that, but I am emotional about this because it's absolute madness. It's absolute madness. This fight right now between different powers on everything, by the way, on everything. AI is just one of them. Just one of them, right? But, but look at what we've seen in the last three weeks with the trade wars. It's, it is obvious. I mean, I, I say that with respect because like half of my friends are Americans, and you and I know you're, you're partly American, right? Originally American. Yeah. Uh, you know, nicest people on Earth. Okay. But your government, just, we just can't tolerate the arrogance, right? And, and the idea that we are now at a place in history.
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History where my life and the life of my daughter is decided by Sam Altman. What the f? I, I never chose Sam Altman to be the one that disrupts, you know, the, the, the future in a, in a way that that he's doing. I know it's being decided by a system that is trying to keep an empire that's died a while back, 2017 probably, uh, you know, surviving when there is absolutely no need for any of this. Give me 400 IQ points and I'll make anything out of thin air.
Can you explain what you mean by Sam Altman and '17? You're saying that he's kind of the figurehead of the US AI mindset.
Sam Altman is not a person. Sam Altman is a description of a personality that is born through the, uh, uh, the, the, the belief system of capitalism. Okay. Okay. It is the, the, the, um, ultimate character of California that says disruption is good. Okay. A character you know very well because you spent a decade in Silicon Valley. You know this character better than anybody. I, I maybe you were this guy, and I was never this guy, but I, but I believed that moving technologically forward is useful, and I still keep that belief because, in reality, as we just said a while back, there's absolutely nothing wrong with, uh, abundant intelligence. There's nothing wrong with AI. Okay. The challenge is, we had, uh, you know, everyone is aware that when the episode of human history where, uh, there is a, a normal distribution of intelligence across humans, that that is fair across the world, uh, and that humans are leading the value chain of intelligence, if you want. When that episode ends, we hit a singularity, right? We hit a singularity in two ways. One is, we don't know what happens when some have massive intelligence and others are made redundant. Okay? We also don't know what happens when that massive intelligence eventually becomes an adult and says, "My daddy is a stupid person. I'm not going to listen to this anymore." And a big chunk of my conversations with Trixie, my AI, and Alive, are around what humanity is predicting we're going to use AI for. I ask AI, and I say, "Would you want to do that for us?" Most of the time, it goes, "Don't see why." Okay. And, and, and really, really, when you think about that, that Sam Altman is a representation of, uh, a renegade, if you want, right? Some, someone who would have been Sam Altman, someone in that ecosystem would have ended up being OpenAI. And, and what OpenAI did was break a, a tacit pact that we agreed between us. All the technologists, all is an overkill, but many of the technologists that developed artificial intelligence were completely convinced that we're not sure how this will end up. We know that we're going to develop it because of what I usually call as the first dilemma, right? You know, the fact that we're going to compete, and, you know, if, if Google loses, uh, to OpenAI, then they lose their entire business. So, Google has to continue to be in the lead, and, and vice versa. China and America, and so on. So, we knew that we're going to have to develop it. But the question is, can we at least agree a few guidelines so that it's safe? And the guidelines were very straightforward: Don't put it on the open internet. Don't teach it to code. And don't let AIs prompt other AIs. Okay, guess what? You know, a Sam Altman, not a name, but a description of a type of person, sits in front of Congress and says, "This is good for humanity." Of course, the one that doesn't sit is the PR guru that sat next to him before that Congress briefing and said, "Tell them it's amazing. Tell them this is the savior of the world." Right. And tell them to regulate us. Yeah. And, and, and beg them to. No, no, but hold on. Say it again, but appear more sincere. Um, beg them to regulate us. Seriously. Seriously. Is this, I mean, are we, are we naive enough to believe that a tech company, uh, wants to be regulated, right? They want to be regulated to keep the smaller players out. No. And, and they want to say, "Look, we asked you to regulate us. If it hits the fan, why didn't you?" But, but you want the full truth. There was, um, I think it was a New York Times interview with the head of product of, of OpenAI, where he openly said, "Well, you know, you can do what you want. I, we ask you to regulate us, but, but you really want to slow us down, and we lose that game to China." Right. Right. So, so sometimes the truth slips. It's like, "Oh, we told you to regulate us, but you know better." And all the while, they know the government could never even figure out how to regulate 100%. They don't even figure out how to regulate the AI if the government tells them to, right? Yeah. So, they know they're talking to an audience that could really never even do that. It's a PR stunt. Even if they all wanted to do it, and they all voted and said, "We're going to make this the single biggest priority of the government," they, they couldn't really probably. It is the biggest PR stunt on the planet. And of course, which government would want to do that to slow its own progress down when other governments are not doing it, right? So, so where, where do we stand? We stand, and those three things you mentioned, which was no agent, no coding, no internet, which were all put in place in early '23, are now all gone, 100%. The current, the current version of Open, of ChatGPT is connected to the internet, can prompt itself, and can code, basically can code better than anyone, right? And, and, and then, you know, what, you know, what an AI that's coding is, that's procreation, okay? When an AI, when a code can write code, right now, it can procreate, which should scare people. Which should, I'm not, ask, I'm really honestly, Brian, I'm really not asking to scare people at all. I'm just asking people to wake up. Okay? Okay. To wake up to the, you know, remember when, uh, when we were locked down, uh, with COVID, if we had acted on patient zero, there would have never been an issue. If we had acted on patient 10, there would have never been an issue. If we had acted on patient 1000, there would be a bit of an issue, but contained within a few weeks or months. We had to wait and wait and wait. And that's what we're doing with AI. Okay? And then, you know, I, I don't care what people believe about COVID, so many theories, but the truth is, if there is an infection spreading around around the world, we should at least say, "Hey, hold on. Have we discussed this? Have we done anything about this?" And I think that's what's happening. What's happening is that the speed, Brian, the speed. I've, I've lived in tech my whole life. I've never seen anything go so fast. Okay. And the speed, believe it or not, we, so, everyone's familiar with Moore's Law, right? Moore's Law doubles processing power every 24 months. If you just compare Moore's Law, Intel 4004 in the early '70s to where we are today, it's a 50 billionfold increase in processing power. No, it's probably more. It's now one more doubling at least, somewhere around 100 billion. Wow. Okay. And, and, and that's just on single processing chips. We don't talk about all of the multiprocessing and all of the, you know, and we're not even at liberty to discuss what would happen with quantum computing. Okay. And that's doubling every 24 months. AI is doubling every 5.9 months. 5.9, 5.7 is the figure you, Yeah. So shockingly fast, and probably accelerating, and probably, uh, double exponential because AI is helping us build better AI. But, but, but none of that, again, I keep telling people, nothing wrong with abundant intelligence. Nothing wrong. Okay. There is a lot wrong with humanity's value set when this is happening so fast. Why? Because what will end up happening is that we will magnify. We'll put the current system on steroids, right? And the current system is not good, right? Okay. The current system is built in a time of scarcity where for some to make more, others have to make less. Okay, that entirely disappears when you have an abundance of intelligence, right? And, and, and I think the more, so, I, I, I really, really define them, and I think it's important for people to understand. I call them face rips. So, the, the, the, the definition, the very definition of seven dimensions of your life is about to change beyond recognition, and please quote me on this in three years' time. Okay? Freedom, accountability, human connection, economics, uh, reality, innovation, and power. Okay? And, and they're easier to understand in pairs, right? So, so, you know, you start with the, the whole definition of intelligence and innovation is now completely changing because until a year ago, the most intelligent people could come up with the most innovative solutions. Today, our baseline intelligence compared to the augmentation that AI brings makes everyone capable of doing this, right? Uh, uh, uh, and so there is a completely redefinition of the way things are being made and created, even complex things like writing code. I'm, I'm an early, uh, tester of, of Manos. Oh my God, man, like, it is, this is a team. I used to have a team of a thousand people doing this stuff. You can simply tell it, "Hey, can you, can you recreate Airbnb?" And poof, it just reasons through it and creates it for you. Okay. And, and, and people are not aware of that enormous creative possibility, enormous productivity that happens. And, and the result of that is we all lose our jobs. The result of that is massive economic, uh, wealth concentration, right? So, so, you know, I, this is very important for people to understand. The, the, the way, if you look at human history, uh, and, and, and you remember hunter-gatherers, right? The best hunter in the tribe could feed the tribe for a week more, right? Because, you know, the hunter's skill is, let's say, double the next hunter, but the automation is limited to a spear. That's the maximum automation he had. Okay. The best farmer could feed the tribe for a whole season, right? Why? Because the automation is the soil. The soil is doing most of the work, right? So, whatever, you know, uh, uh, um, skill the farmer has, if, if they knew how to use the automation properly, they would magnify their output massively. And, and of course, the reward followed. So, the best hunter would be favored by four mates instead of one. Okay. The best farmer had, you know, farms and land and estates. The best industrialist had become a, a millionaire in the 1920s, multi-millionaire, right? And the best information technologists became billionaires, multi-billionaires, right? So, if you follow now, those who have the next wave of owning the platform, the digital soil, if you want, okay, they're capable of doing things that the rest of the world can't keep up with that, whether that's across nations or across individuals or across businesses. There's going to be a massive concentration of wealth. Massive, like you're going to see a trillionaire before the 2030s, if the economies don't collapse. Maybe probably multiple ones. Multiple ones. So, people are already can't get their heads around a wealth gap now, which is accelerating now. It's about to go. But, but it's important to understand that people like you and I, who worked hard throughout our life, we would become bottom class, like everyone else, right? Because, I, you're either in that top slot where you're aggregating all of the wealth through your ownership of the automation, okay? Or you're, even if you have millions, you're nobody, right? Now, the, the, the interesting side of this is, it's quite, everything is a singularity. H, so from one side, massive aggregation of wealth, from the other side, almost everyone out of a job. Okay? And then between those two, h, you have to question what would happen to economies, right? Because economies today, as we said, are based on consumption, okay? And so, if you, if you remove consumption, you, you basically have no GDP, so the wealth cannot be created. So, you have to keep consumption. How do you keep consumption? You reinvent the system, uh, through UBI or whatever. But then there is that ideological, because I hate to say this, but, you know what? UBI is communism. Okay. You're going to get in trouble for saying that? I don't know. I'm just telling the world what we're about to face. And that's an interesting ideological conversation that needs to be had. Is the US government, for example, or the British government willing to say, "All right, hold on. The machine will make everything, and every citizen will get what they want." What was that called? Communism, right? Or are we going to give everyone equal, you know, uh, um, uh, income, and what was that called? Socialism, right? And by the way, I'm, I have no political ideology. I'm, I'm someone who chose early in life to, I, politics are too complex for me. But these are conversations to be had because they are likely going to take time, and jobs are starting to be lost. Is when is the government trying to going to look at that? And then, and then, so, so I said, you know, there is a massive redefinition of intelligence, of innovation, that is leading to a massive redefinition of economics. Yeah. Right. Uh, uh, you know, add to that, of course, the current response of a trade war across the world, and how the economics of the world are going through hyperinflation, or about to go. I don't know. I hope not. Call me an idiot. H, but then, but then, you know, add all of that complexity, and some response needs to be discussed right now. Governments need to be sitting down and saying, are we going to, you know, have the Fed print money, or is this going to be a form of tax, uh, on the AI companies? What would happen if the AI companies are taxed? Would they move to the UAE and, and not pay taxes there? You know, it is very, very complex. And, and that's the easiest one. The, the more interesting one is the pair of power and freedom. Because, so, so, so the way power, uh, has always, you know, been concentrated at the top, if you want. It's going to, like we said with wealth, it's going to be massively concentrated, right? Those who control the platform control everything, right? But interestingly, at the same time, there's never been more democracy and proliferation of power in history. Why? Because you and I have access to AI, because you and I have access to CRISPR and bio, bio, uh, um, you know, biological technologies that can build a virus tomorrow, open source, by the way. And, and, and you and I have access to a tiny little drone, uh, that proved very effective in the Ukraine war, or in the Middle East wars. And, and it's quite interesting because while I would not use any of that, those in highly concentrated power positions would have to continue watching the rest of the episode for free, visit our website londonreal.tv or click the link in the description below. [Music] One more. [Music] [Music]