Transcription
[Music] Mexico at learned from the my ass for the steak, also for concie hard hard to miss keen now in Ravena stat the temples desserts about ever my Vista totally Mexico. Oh no, Indiana's and from da little a my ass my oak on the Indiana t Haley razandrich in spark. I haven't brought him it Stacy Schaefer say it's professor in Texas and how only waivers on topology testing buku Schaefer over the weed shop Indiana delay in Mexico and market Coons. Do you hear almost hangs it welcome Stacy.
First explain you are a professor in anthropology. What what is that? Yes, anthropology is the study of human beings. It's a huge field and therefore subfields, and mine is cultural anthropology. So I work with people who are living and breathing, and I can actually carry on conversations with. So that means that our under polish it is also look at people who are dead, they like archaeology.
Now the living people to talk with him, you have to be able to talk with him. Yes, yeah. And what I've been I've been working with the wheat rolls since the first time I went up was in 1977, when I was a teenager and ever since I've been going back. The way that we communicate with each other is we both speak Spanish, which is their second language, it's my second language, and I speak some Huichol too. And when I talked to the elders who are usually shamans, and many of them are monolingual, so I have their sons or daughters do the translation or the interpretation, and then we work together afterwards listening to the interview on a cassette and we'll go through every single word and then scribe it to make it even more accurate.
Now when I go to Mexico, I go to places like Te'o and Nautica not all whatever is there languages like that. Well, their language is from the Udo s second family, and so what you're pronouncing is more like now what or now waddle. It has an L on the end, but you don't pronounce the L. And the wietrow language is related to that language. It's also related to the language the Hopi speak up in the Southwest United States, and it's a big language family, and it doesn't to me sound like the Nahuatl, but there are a lot of grammatical similarities between the two. Now I don't know much about Huichol except art we've seen here, and you've written books about it, but it feels a little bit like what I have learned from Duncan, which means Carlos Castenada who died recently described about the Indian culture in of that area.
Well, I think what's really fascinating about the wheat rolls is that of all the Indians in Mexico they are some of the most traditional. They have maintained their traditions that date back to before pre-columbian to pre-columbian times, before the Spanish came. Yeah, they did have missionary influence, especially for a period of about a hundred years fairly intensive, but nothing for as long as most the other Indian groups in Mexico. So even though they do incorporate some of these Catholic icons or Jesus Christ or the virgin de Guadalupe, now really the focus, the Maria of a Guadalupe which is a very strong image in Mexico of Maria, right, but she doesn't have the place for the wheat rolls at least the community that I work with like the Sun God and the dear God and the goddess of creation and the rain goddesses and all of those have just as much or even more importance in their ceremonies and in their day to day life.
Could you describe their habitat, the place where they live? Is that it's an either sea where where is it in Mexico? They live in the mountains, the Sierra Madre Occidental, which is a chain of mountains that goes from north to south, the tamata also in Mexico in the state of Chihuahua at the north of them, and then there the wheat rolls are in the Sierras in an area that is predominantly the state of Jalisco bordering in tune I eat and into Durango and Zacatecas. And they also have sacred places outside of the Sierras. They go to the ocean, to the Pacific Ocean, to an area called San Blas where the goddess of the ocean lives. They go to leave offerings. They also go to the desert in Witte kuta or san luis potosí, which is about 300 miles away where they go for the sacred peyote and to in essence what they're doing is recreating their creation myths every year, and they also have other sacred places. There are caves in the state of Durango where they go and also down in Jalisco near Guadalajara is Lake Chapala where they go to leave offerings. And what's very interesting about that is they've done some underwater archaeology and they found precoding pre-columbian times that there were offerings artifacts that were thrown into the lake and we shall still go there today to leave their offerings.
You said something about a creation myths. You know our creation myths, most people know from the Bible. There are other creation myths. There is sometimes a very cyclic nature like in the Hindus, but what is the creation myths of which all Indians? Well, you have various creations too, and the more recent creation was after the gods were created and they came from the sea and they went to Witte kuta the sacred land where the peyote is, and then humans were created. And there were lots of problems during the various creations of human beings, and so one last time there was one huichol man named wat akame and the goddess of creation kikuchi knock away grandmother told him to build a canoe and he gathered his little female black dog with him and some seeds of different plants etc and they then it flooded for days and days. This is similar to what we had the Ark of Noah. Yes, but what you find universally is whether a culture has had Christian and judeo-christian influence or not, they all have creation myths that have to do with floods, and it could very well have to do with natural phenomena at some time in history that we may not even be able to record. But in any event it was a flood that destroyed everything, and then there was a bird that came by with some massa or some cornmeal and it's beak and that's what led them to land and that's where they landed and what taça made the first wheat roll man started to clear the fields to plant, and while he was away the female black dog transformed into a woman and she would make the tortillas in the meal and he'd come back and it was still this little black dog and he couldn't figure out what was going on until one day he decided that he would hide and see what happened and he saw the little black dog shed her fur and become a woman and so he immediately ran and he grabbed the fur threw it into the fire because he didn't want her to transform back into a dog and she started screaming you're burning me you're burning me and so then he threw it's a liquid that they use with lime it's a mineral or call in Spanish to loosen the corn kernels when they cook them for tortillas so he threw this liquid on the fire to put it out and that's why they say we Cho people today have this cream-colored skin instead of being totally black from being burned and that's the beginning of the human race of wheat rolls.
Most people think that they are like the prime race to prime people of the universe that they have not only that they were there from the origin but that they have a sacred job a sacred quest in life. Dude we shall have something like that definitely. They feel that they were the chosen people, and it's very common when you find especially in these traditional cultures that they are in and they call themselves in wheat day.we which means the people and you find this in so commonly in other cultures their own in their own language they call themselves the people and they really see it's a very serious duty that they have in keeping the forces of nature in balance and this also involves communicating with the gods and making sure that the gods are pleased and the gods will then listen to their prayers and all will be well. So this happens in many people. You're a professor in anthropology. Did you study like specific other people that like a Hopi Indians that have a similar first creation myth and then this this drive this quest this message through world? Yeah, it's just very common in in all of these indigenous cultures and I'm most familiar with Native American and Indians of the Americas cultures and this is just something that they are born with. They believe that they're the we chills believe that they are born with a what they call an e yah T or a heart memory which is in essence a kind of genetic memory and this goes back to their ancestors and even though they do have this heart memory in order for it to open up and to grow they have to follow the traditions and in huichol culture the traditions also involve personal growth as well as people doing things for the betterment of the community and the family but also personal growth becoming a shaman becoming a master artist becoming a master violin or guitar player or a musician these are all ways that they can expand what they already have and to even reach closer to the gods. So they see life as a as a path as a as a direction as something that brings them closer to to the gods.
But then how do they see death? They see death as something that's inevitable also, and they believe that after a person has that their soul takes a journey and it follows the path of the Sun and even in the daylight or in the waking reality they have sacred places that follow the path of the Sun all the way from the east where we Dakota is and they believe that it is born out of an inactive volcano so it's giving birth every day to the Sun. It crosses over weedy Kuta, it then crosses over where they live in the seers and goes eventually down to the ocean and they have this marked with sacred places all the way along and they believe that when someone dies that their soul follows this path - and the soul also gets help from a little black dog to cross a river. I don't think they ran into the Greeks back then so this is another universal archetype that you see with a black dog helping you cross a river and then depending upon the kind of life they've led they'll have different trials and tribulations at these sacred places. If they've had a lot of extramarital sexual relationships, for example, they will go to a place where there they need to do to relive that. Well what there's a treat and it has vaginas in it in one tree and penises and the other and they will have to knock them out and then carry them in a big basket on their back until they've somehow paid for or sacrificed for these wrongdoings that they have done. The Jewish people have a Jahannam which is the same ID and a classified means seven capital sins. Is there a similar ID? Well, they just think of sins as if you're having a sexual relationship with somebody other than your spouse because they're looking at this as far as the energies go - it's not you know necessarily oh well it's immoral or or all of that but you know there's very very particular vows of chastity when they go on these pilgrimages if they learn to be a shaman and they see that it is very distracting and can take you off the path if you if you do have some of the sexual encounters. Also death or murder they consider is a kind of a sin or even stealing and those kind of all fit in together as far as what they consider sins to be so to go to some afterlife. But is there reincarnation? Well, what happens is after the soul takes its path and they have a ceremony five days after someone dies, five is their number and they will have the shaman they'll put the altar with all the person's belongings they will then bring the the family together and the shaman will sing and with the help of the gods particularly the dear messenger God brings the soul of the deceased to the ceremony. People offer it food and they will then send it off and the shaman makes sure that it goes to the place above we Dakota where it will then be safe because otherwise they say it will constantly be following the Sun and it will never be released from that unless you have this kind of a ceremony. Then there's a place in the same heavens if you want to call it where the goddess who is the goddess of weaving and she's also the goddess who cares for the souls her name is nuit dukkha and she's also related in a way as a spider and she is the one who furnishes the souls for all of the babies that are going to be born so there is some kind of re yeah you reincarnate.
Now there's not a thing you said you say there's hearts memory. Now Terence Mckenna once explained to me he said culture can be seen as a very long process of taking what the knowledge the wisdom that is inside outside. We now have the internet and computers and all stuff like that. We externalize our knowledge first we take it from the heart and we say it ii do we we're gonna write it down or make markings paintings then we put it in books libraries and and in the computer and in virtual reality. Mmm dude do we sha think that it should contain them their their message in their heart? Yes, but it's also something that needs to be shared too. So for example just like with people that used I'm a or the ayahuasca that a lot of this is learning personal songs songs that they will then sing out loud. We just believe that with the peyote that if they learn a song if it God comes and teaches them a song that they need to then sing that and and everybody should hear it and some other people might want to learn it as well and this can also go into storytelling or myths and some person may have a real ability to do that and it's so it's their role to from their own personal knowledge and communication to share this with everybody. The art work can work the same. There are definitely we chose who only make art for commercial reasons but there are other we trolls who still follow traditional path and through the sale of their artwork they're able to pay for their pilgrimages and just for you know it costs money now for them to live and so there isn't always a dichotomy that sometimes the art also does depict what the person has experienced in what they're trying to tell the outside but so in their old traditions there wasn't like paintings they weren't know it's there they're think.
Well which brings us to the subject of peyote. You wrote a book was called actually people of the payout which are Indian history religion and survival. What is peyote? Is lawful furrow William C. It's a cactus that grows in a very excuse me in a very distinct area in Mexico in San Luis Potosi sometimes boarding a little into the state of Zacatecas and then it follows a line along in the desert area all the way up to South Texas where I live. So yeah you have a connection to the PIO direct. I learned the traditions and I learned about it with the wheat rolls and then I ended up getting a job at the University of Texas at one of the campuses in South Texas where the only place for peyote grows and I wear it's also legal for members of the American howdy-ho the church Native American church to use it. That is one of the exceptions to the law for psychedelics that even in jail I understand. Yeah, there were some some clauses and previous drug laws in the United States that alluded to the fact that native a members of the Native American church had the right to use peyote but it wasn't until there was an amendment that was signed into law in 1994 that specifically said that people who are members of the Native American church have the right to by transport and consume peyote if it is in relationship to their religious traditions. That's been heated.
So biota is a cactus. I've heard the name San Pedro that's do it. San Pedro is a different kind of a cactus which is more commonly found in South America. The San Pedro is more of a column of a cactus and it also one of the alkaloids that it has in common with peyote is mescaline. However, it's my understanding at least from what the alkaloid analysis that's been done to date that the peyote contains more mescaline per her button than the Sun Pedro. But anyway so it's a drug, it's a hell listen it's an organic substance substance for people in Hollands it might have similar effects as Pardo's or magic mushrooms. It is more colorful than LSD. It is similar to ayahuasca the DMT experience. Well what the mescaline is it's a phenyl ethyl amine and so the experience is different than a DMT experience and which is a tryptamine tryptamine right. The kind of visuals you have are different, the kinds of physical sensations you have are different. I mean if you're not very experienced you would probably say oh it's it's very similar but if you really take the time to look at especially especially these traditional people who have used this in their for a long time and then the kind of artwork they put out it's very different indeed as far as what they see visually and what they experience. Okay, well so there is a difference but it is a something you chew at they actually chew. I mean we in the West we might chemically make mescaline but you can chew it. How does that go? I mean is it something they do every Sunday? Is it something they do every day? Is it like having a coca-cola or a beer? How does this bo t fit into their culture?
Well, as far as the wheels go peyote is you know it's an integral part it's an essential element in their culture and so every year they go down to San Luis Potosi to harvest the peyote but it's also the whole ritual involved and then they'll bring enough back because it doesn't grow where they live and they will bring it back they'll bring it back fresh they will also dry it and they will save it for the ceremonies. Sometimes they'll temporarily plant it in gardens around their Ranchos but it gets used up quickly and so they have the dried as well and with the dried there will use a method a mono it's one of these grinding stones so they'll grind it into powder they'll mix it with water and they'll drink it and then the fresh they will eat fresh and they will take there are little white Tufts usually on it which they are at the ends of these nodes which they'll take off and it's always you know it's done in a very ceremonial ceremonial setting and usually they will ask the shaman to bless it and then they will they will eat it. In addition to the mescaline though it has at least 50 alkaloids and we don't know what all of these alkaloids do and it's very very bitter and so it takes quite a bit of chewing in order to get it down and we chose have say you know they usually have these big wads and their cheeks while they're slowly slowly slowly chewing it until eventually the they'll swallow it and it takes even practice for wheat rolls but since they start at a very young age they can eat is 1022 peyote in in a sitting and usually in the ceremonies because they last for as long as two days two nights or longer they will every more or less four to six hours be eating more peyote. Now if it's not in a ceremonial context they will sometimes eat peyote because it dissuasion hunger and thirst and it gives them energy so they might eat just one button if they're gonna go work all day in the cornfield sort of they have to go for a long walk to someplace else and so that's how they also will use peyote and that's similar to chewing coca leaves what they do in more South America.
Yeah, I think so, but I think that you don't need to chew as much of the peyote and perhaps it lasts longer too, but if you eat small amounts like that you're not going to have the visuals sensations as much. And then there's also the peyote I've been studying peyote in pregnancy among Huichol women and even women from the Native American church will eat peyote at various stages of their pregnancy but one thing that I found in common is that they will sometimes intentionally eat peyote when they're going to give birth because they say that it makes the delivery go quicker there's not as much pain and not as much blood. That's interesting. So part of that use of peyote is medical would you say that we chose live longer than the other Indian tribes of similar natural habitat? Well, feeding patterns yeah that's that's hard to tell because most of the we trolls who are forty-five years or older don't know how old they are because in the back in those days they weren't keeping birth certificates and so they can only guess. Some we chills are extremely old but then they're I think you find that if a weasel lives to be a teenager especially the first five years those are the central years because there is such a high infant mortality rate there's a lot of malnutrition and a lot of these disease from the outside that if they haven't been immunized they just get so sick and so if they live at least to five years of age they're considered a whole person and they have now a complete soul and they actually have a ceremony for this and then if they live to be an adult age anywhere from 18 on then they have a good chance of living for a very long time. But would you say that there are very old Huichol Indians? Yeah, I would say so, but I it's very hard to tell how old they are because these that have an effect say on the diseases we know you know their brains get a little bit Parkinson's disease. We have all these things in the West that seem to - in all days make us suffer and not live a healthy life. Do they live - to experience that or or is what you say the use of the peyote might make them more sane in the mind? Yeah, I I have not seen a single old huichol who may be considered senile. I they are all with it. The only thing ailments that I think are fairly common arthritis for example and they will not them but the Mexican culture the Missy so culture has a tradition of using peyote where they will cut fresh peyote up and put in alcohol and then they'll rub it on their joints for our thright Asst but the we chose themselves they will you know they claim that the peyote is also something that keeps them them healthy - and it does have antibiotic properties to it which have been studied by scientists and so I think that there's not only a spiritual use but a medicinal use for peyote - and it doesn't mean they have to be separate.
Now before we start talking about art I would like you you have taken the peyote. I've taken some mescaline I many other drugs by the way I found it that in the right context it really have enriched my life not so much because of the colors and efficient but because I realized that reality is is malleable it's an illusion that I can see the same things different or whatever it really is is it has changed my view on the world and a reality and I understand that your reality is different from mine which is very important because that you know you you're not so condemning but down the state's these drugs are normally forbidden not for it Native Americans but they're forbidden they're seen as very bad. How do you feel about that? I really think that if people would like to try something like this I don't see why they can't. I I do believe that there is much to be said for having a guide or taking it in a setting that will enable the person to feel safe and also to gain as much as possible from the experience as opposed to just experimenting and doing it alone but I don't really feel that I have a right to tell people what is the way or the best way to take substances such as this. I personally I mean I I don't think I would have peyote if it wasn't in a setting with wheat rolls are with members of the Native American church just because that's how I learned it and it has so much more meaning to
Me, and not only for myself, but in trying to understand these people too. And I don't think you can talk about these people or study them if you don't try peyote, for example. Whereas when I hear about people who just eat peyote, you know, they go out into the desert to eat peyote for their own recreational use, yeah, you know, in a way it makes me feel bad, especially if they're disrespectful to the peyote, if they over-harvest it, because now there's a shortage of peyote. But if they have this awareness as far as the right way to treat the plant, you know, I don't feel I have a right to say how they should take it and how they shouldn't take it.
But do you think you've studied the history of peoples in general, Dad? For insisted the lack of rites of passage, which people like Gene used and say we have, we don't have these rites of passage, like the Judeo-Christian tradition had a twelve-year-old and, as you said, he's which he'll say that five years, 18-year-old, whatever, there were rites of passage, sometimes using of drugs or whatever situations, sending you off to on a Vision Quest out in wild nature. Would you say that the lack of those rites of passage has influenced society?
Oh, absolutely. Western society, I think, is so lost, and that's why I think you see so many problems with young people, is because they are not recognized for having and honored for having passed through childhood to adolescent and/or adulthood. And this is so important in this bringing them into the community and making them feel that they are part of everybody and they are no longer children. And this is a very special place to be, you know, there are subcultures within Western culture that have this: you have bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs, or where I live in South Texas, it's a very Mexican tradition where they have quinceañeras where a woman turns 15, and so it's sort of like she's coming out. And they used to have quinceañeras for boys, and that's still very strong, this tradition. But in general, I think Western culture has lost this, and I think there is a real need to somehow put part of that ritual back into our own culture.
There are some people in Germany who say that because we as a society don't acknowledge the new rites of passage that the kids themselves create, like raves, like they're there some form of techno dancing, whatever, that because we don't acknowledge those events as rites of passage, as their way to step up in the world and to make the transition from child to that, that is that's the cause of that; that if we would more honor their own rituals that they create as rituals and not say, "This is forbidden," you know, "no raves, please," and so on. What do you think, that that's a valid argument?
Yeah, I do. I do, because I think that in many respects the kids, sure, you know, there there is always this generational thing, and the younger generation wants to be different, etc., this with traditional people too. But what I also see is that eventually when they get into their 30s or into their 40s, they become more conservative, and I think that it's just the natural passing of humans in their experience in their bodies of different ages. And so even though maybe some of these, the German or whatever groups that have their raves, etc., I think that should, that's a very valid form of rite of passage, and I think it should be respected as such.
Yeah, okay. Well, let's look at somebody with show art, because I'll get some of these and then we talk about this one. What does this mean in general? Okay, these are what we chose. Call me Erica. And me, Erica, literally means in their language, "cheeks," and this is something that I have mentioned in the conference, and I was talking about the designs that they have. We chose believe that when a person is born, they are born with their ni'e'eco, or their personal design. It's almost like an aura, and it's something that only the shaman can see. If someone is sick, the ni'e'eco, which the shaman looks at, will disappear or disintegrate the designs. And so part of the curing is for the shaman to put, make the design, person's designs healthy again. Gods also have ni'e'aticos, or a design that represents them. And so if someone is on the shamanic path, they will go to the peyote desert, they will eat peyote, and they will ask the gods to show them their ni'e'eco, or their designs. And then these are the various kinds of designs. Each yarn painter is very individual in how he does it.
Let's explain that because these are not, these are yarn, this is textile on a background of some honey, honey works or something like that. Usually it's baseboard or wood, and then they'll use beeswax, a special kind of beeswax from Campeche, which they'll soften in the Sun, and then they'll smooth evenly on the board. And then usually without even drawing anything on the yarn painting, they will just start putting in the designs with the yarn. And I've noticed with yarn painters, they usually do the frame first and then work in. And you were saying something about that psychological design, that's very interesting, because of course there are now schools of psychological understanding, like Eureka, that says that we do have patterns. Actually, I believe that those patterns go back to our breath patterns. And then people like, well, the people that did the breath work say that starts at our births, those are maybe frustrations before births or during birth that we decide how we breathe, and the way we breathe forms our face and our aura and stuff like that. Do you think that I have an intuitive understanding of that system?
Yeah, I think they do. I am still, there are just so many intricacies in how they conceive of the body and the soul, and I'm still learning a lot about that, but they do see that there are many components that make you who you are. And they believe that you don't really, for example, while you're in the womb, you don't have a sex until shortly before you're born. And and so there are shamans who can specialize in these particular specialties. If you want a girl, well, you go to a shaman, the shaman will fix it so you have a girl, or if you want a boy, etc. And sometimes what you'll also see is that if the probably has died and the couple gets pregnant again, that the new baby will be born with the exact same face, and they'll say, "Well, that's because that's the soul of this baby." As far as breath, I really don't know at this point how they feel about it, but to the whole question of designs again, it's not just the We chose who do this. There's and study with other indigenous groups, such as the Shipibo down in Peru in the Amazon area of the Ucayali River, and they believe that people have designs, and the shamans will sing to heal the designs a person has. And the Shipibo actually used to tattoo themselves with all these incredible designs, which they no longer do after the missionaries came, but they still have this concept that a person has their own design that needs to always be clean and always be flowing, and if there is any kind of blockage, then the shaman needs to cleanse it.
Okay, so they basically understand that a person is him or herself, that I might be damaged, that it might be that you might need cleansing, but I'm not saying we can change your design. No, you can't. You are born with that design, and you die with that design, but you can, you know, depending upon your state of health and also of your spiritual and physical development, it can have different aspects to it, but it's always essentially the same design. Does that lead to a greater acceptance, because like in the West we now have an idea, well, if you're bad, it's because your parents were bad, and you grew up in a criminal environment, and so on and so on. Is there more acceptance of deviant behavior?
Yes, there is, especially if they feel that if a person starts to follow the traditions, then whatever deviant behavior there may be kind of gets ironed out along the way. And one thing that's so beautiful about Huichol traditions and their beliefs in their worldview is that there is so much room for individuality within their framework, so that you can really be a person and excel in what you what gives you great joy, and they consider this a wonderful thing. It's not restraining you; it's not keeping you down; it's something that is allowing you this kind of personal freedom. But to have like archetypal images, like you, there are probably warriors, and they are probably wise people that come back generation after generation.
Mmm, yeah, I would say that they would definitely, through this whole ancestor bit, because in addition to being born with a heart memory, what they'll do is they will have special ceremonies to gather the rock crystals of recently passed ancestors, which they will then keep on, they'll tie up in an arrow bundle, and they will then, they will then have ceremonies, and every time they will anoint them with blood, first from a sacrificial animal to give that life and to pray so that the ancestors will also look them over and care for them. Another another painting here, that human figure, what is this?
Yeah, that is that Coots a knock away. She's the great grandmother of growth and regeneration, and she was the first God goddess who existed and who created the world. And so this yarn painting is talking with all the water, she makes it rain, snakes there during the rainy season, which is more or less our summertime, is when they grow their crops, and they don't irrigate, so they rely on a lot of rain. And there's a blue snake that is related, and you can find in the cornfields, and so that's a sacred snake. And then here she has movie a tease, or these are power wands that the shamans use, and with this she uses it to communicate with the gods. And then these are votive arrows, here, some more votive arrows. Here's the peyote. Oh, that's a pattern to five. And then this is Chieti, which is another hallucinogenic plant that they have. It's call its crimson wheat jimsonweed. There are various kinds of chieti, and it's still being sorted out by ethnobotanist, but that's similar to the Datura that have in India. Yes, it also seems to be related to the solanaceous family, and likes Alondra, for example. And so there still needs to be more work to more positively identify it. But right, so hard to us, this particular plant, these plants grow in very inaccessible areas. They are revered and feared by Huichol, so you can't just automatically ask a Huichol about it or to take you to it. And only very certain shamans will work with this plant, because, you know, I've heard horror stories of shamans who've lost it, and they've never come back in their mind after having been exposed to the Datura or the chieti. And so it's something that you need to walk with with caution.
They have their own drug policies, too. Yes, they do, and they see the peyote is so benevolent in comparison to the chieti. Yes, but they also say that, you know, they'll talk about that peyote will punish you if you haven't been honest to yourself and to others. And so, you know, they will even have sometimes bad trips, quote-unquote, and they say it's because you haven't confessed and you haven't been honest before you ate the peyote, and you were not clean. So this is what happened to you, is what Tim Leary would say, set in setting. You have to be in the right mind in the right.
Yeah. Another one, ancient spirits are called to the fiestas of the drum. Okay, in around harvest time, anywhere between September, October, November, when they harvest the first corn and squash and beans, they will have a ceremony, and they will, and also in honor of the young plants that there will be harvesting, but also for the children. And once again, these are children from a couple months old to five years old, and the shaman will play the drum. Here's the shaman, right here, with his movie Eddy, notice the power coming out of it here, and then here's the drum. And so he will play the drum, and he in his song transports the souls of the children; he transforms them into little birds, and their souls takes them on the pilgrimage to Wirikuta. So even before a child has gone on the pilgrimage to Wirikuta, he or she knows these sacred places because these ceremonies. And so the shaman transports their souls to these places and then will bring them back. Here is the deer, which is how you mati, which is his messenger who is helping, these are the souls of the children, and the sun also is grandfather fire, is very, very important, grandfather fire along with grandmother growth. And so this is the path that they're taking to Wirikuta.
One more we have here is slightly more detailed again, the sun as a major thing, too. Yeah, it talks about the Sun, but also on either side is rain, and We chose I think would rather have more rain than Sun, to tell you the truth, because they just can't get enough rain for their crops and for the rivers to fill, etc. And so when they go to Wirikuta, what they're also doing is they're going in, it's during the dry season, and they're going to ask the Sun to calm itself so the rains can come. They have, I don't know, the alchemy is the right word or not, but when they go to all of these different sacred places outside of the Sierras and in the Sierras, they have soils that they've collected from these places, sacred water, and then they'll deposit them in other sacred places. And so when they go up to allow mud, which is the inactive volcano, which is the furthest east that they go on their pilgrimage and the furthest east in their cosmology, they will leave water from hot Amata from the Pacific Ocean. And so what they're doing is they're trying to generate rain clouds so that they will then eventually get pulled over to the Sierras where they live, and this is, and it will make it rain. The candles here represent life, and every time that they have a ceremony and they leave offerings, they will light candles. You find in here these are votive bowls, and they have sacred corn in it. Mm-hmm, along here. So these are niwet Sica, which is the corn goddess. Mmm, and every family has their own bowl. These bowls are made more for sale, but they have the same pattern. Yes, you have the niet, like all of them, even the ones they make as offerings for themselves, have this mandala kind of design in the middle. And then the ones they make for themselves are not completely covered with beads and design; they'll put like a little corn plant with some beads on it and a deer in a person, etc. And this is one particular gourd bowl will be for the family, and it represents their sacred corn or their niet suka. So every time someone is born, they will put another figure of a person into this bowl, and they keep it growing.
Yeah, yeah. Now about the structure, what we see here for me, that that is similar to what I would see in some drug-induced state. The colors are very vivid; it's the pattern, and of course these beads, they come from Eastern Europe or something like that, but but they they make it very clear how it how your visions are. Yes, and that's because of their experience with the peyote; it just has an influence on how they see the world in general, and the colors that they choose in the patterns, etc. And so peyote really does influence their art, either directly from their own experience with it or indirectly because they're surrounded by this all the time, these designs, these colors, and the beliefs that go around with them. And so it's just part and parcel of who they are when you get to these designs and these particular ways of representing how they see the world. So what you say is their art and the life is like one, their spirit life is integrated with their daily life again. Bring this to a close, is that what we lack in the West? I mean, there's no, there's no chips in our vision, there's no computers in our dreams, yet so much.
Well, I think, you know, I personally think that what we've lost in the West is just this sense of spirituality, of the sacredness in the day-to-day life. And you don't have to go to a church or a synagogue on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday to get that; you can have that every day. It's just a matter of trying to relearn what we've lost from what is part of our own culture. And yeah, we can get ideas and rituals and beliefs from other cultures, but we have to remember we're borrowing them from other cultures, whereas if you look deep enough in our own past culture and Western civilization, there's a wealth that we could draw upon. And I think more and more people are doing that, too. So we can learn from others, but maybe we should learn from ourselves. This was Stacey Safer on the subject of Huichol Indians from Mexico and their sacred peyote art, and we're very happy that we could talk about these very colorful and meaningful things. Thank you. Thank you very much. [Music] I pick your stuffer because it's gonna be so you will send me a copy, that no, I will. [Music] [Music] You see are these mushrooms, these things here? [Music] At the free sighs, what would happen to somebody fell down the lift shaft when last weekend was he stoned? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, okay, but if I can handle this today, it is too many people. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Music]