20 Doctors Couldn't Help Her, What Saved Her Life Should Change Medicine Forever | Ep. 186

Welcome to the Radically Genuine podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillan. We often know very little about healing and recovery outside of the mainstream narrative. Alternative health practices, valuable research, patient stories are not only suppressed, but there's also a strong media apparatus that has been hard at work our entire lives that suppresses and discredits this evidence. Like once you start awakening to it, you can't unsee it. There are movies and television spots that are purposely created to condition us in fear. It's built an entire industry, a medical establishment that works from a very specific perspective and that is, in my opinion, complicit in the deteriorating health as we walk closer to extinction. This is not hyperbole. Birth rates are down, as well as life expectancy.

For me, it's important to understand health and healing from the perspective of those who have faced death and recovered, not because they were adherent to mainstream allopathic medical advice, but rather because they defied it. So, what would you do if 20 specialists and over 20 years couldn't explain why your body was betraying you? When you're wasting away like a cancer patient, too weak to hold a cup, watching your children from the floor because you can't care for them? When the medical system dismisses your suffering as if it's all in your head? This isn't some medical mystery on TV. This is the life and death reality of a woman with elite scientific credentials who found herself abandoned by the very system she was trained to trust. A woman who, in her darkest moments, made a desperate plea that would unlock healing truths conventional medicine either couldn't see or deliberately ignores.

Today I'm honored to be joined by Dr. Cena McCulla, a PhD nutritionist, disease reversal expert, health freedom advocate. She's dedicated her life to helping others heal with advanced training in functional medicine, exercise physiology, and energy medicine, as well as certifications as a master herbalist, natural healer, and gluten-free society practitioner. She's going to blend science and intuition—remember that intuition—to help guide people back to wellness. She's the author of Hands Off My Food and Beyond Labels, which is co-authored with uh Joel Salatin of Polyphase Farm, and the creator of the step-by-step healing program Go Wild: How I Reverse Chronic and Autoimmune Disease. She also co-hosts and co-produces the Beyond Labels podcast and serves as a health columnist for the Epic Times. Dr. McCulla, welcome to the Radically Genuine podcast.

Wow. Thank you so much for having me. I'm I feel so blessed and honored to be here.

Yeah, it's great to hear from you. I I think we should really start with your story. From what I understand, your health struggles began at birth.

They did. Uh so I was born with chronic constipation. Um I had a difficult time digesting anything, even breast milk. So, they ended up having to put me on um like a soy-based formula, which obviously now we know was the wrong thing to do, but that was the science at the time. Um I had chronic ear infections as a child. Uh I eventually had tubes put in my ears. Uh but I continued to progress down these this autoimmune uh continuum. Um, by my early 20s, I would have so much pain just trying to digest food that I'd look like I would eat like a piece of pizza and I would look like I was five months pregnant, just completely distended, you know, cramping. And it was really frustrating because I could eat a piece of pizza from my favorite pizza shop and be totally fine and then a week later, same pizza shop, same pizza that I ordered and I'd buckle over in pain from it. So there seemed to be really no rhyme or reason that I could figure out in my early 20s. The first doctor that I ever saw, a western doctor, told me that um I had irritable bowel syndrome, IBS, as we know it's just a catch-all group and it really means I don't know the answer, right? So his solution was for me to consume Tagamet, a prescription medication, every time before I ate any kind of food. And I thought, you know, I'm only 20 years old. I'm not going to be dependent on a prescription drug just so I can eat. There has to be something underlying here, like a root cause. So, I pushed back and I asked him and he said, "No one's ever asked me that before. I don't know the root cause." And so, that was it. Prescription in hand, they had me walk out the door. I refused to take the prescription. And so, I just kept searching for answers. And over the next roughly 20 years, I sought so sought help from so many western doctors that I lost count. I saw so many specialists. I had numerous tests done including breath tests, fecal tests, blood tests, urine tests. I even had exploratory surgery at one point where nobody had any answers. All the while I'm getting sicker and sicker. So I started to have, for instance, beyond the gastrointestinal issues. I started to have chronic sinus infections. Um I was I was having mood changes. I'd become very irritable. Just seemingly out of the blue, you know, just started like kind of barking at people, you know. Um I started to get bumps on my arms on the back of my arms. Uh I was affected by the red tide down. We lived down in Florida at some point and that is a neurotoxin and that started to affect me. It actually led to me having five miscarriages because I was so chronically inflamed. I had a tumor that grew. Uh it started on the sclera or the white of my eye and it was growing and I saw numerous specialists for that of course because I was afraid of to lose my vision and none of the specialists knew why it was happening but they could tell me without a doubt that it would eventually grow and cover my cornea and it would blind me. So that was not helpful at all. Um, this whole time I was developing more and more food sensitivities. So, the list of foods that I could eat eventually dwindled down to about a half a sheet of paper. And this was really perplexing for me because, as you mentioned, I was studying nutrition. Um, I had already received my bachelor's in um, neurobiology, physiology, and behavior. And so, I was well-versed in the body. And then I was at this point getting my um, I was beyond my PhD in nutrition. And so I knew how the body metabolized foods and what were the right foods and what were the wrong foods and things like that. But foods like apples and bananas were actually making me sick. Like chicken would make me sick. All these foods that we thought were healthy. This whole time I'm asking for help from Western medicine and they can't find anything wrong. And so I'm looking I'm using my own expertise because I'm thinking I'm gonna have to figure this out myself, you know. And so I started doing diet elimination reintroduction. I tried every single diet that I had ever been trained how to use and everyone that I could find on the market. So I did paleo, I tried um keto, I tried the candida diet, I tried the GAPS diet. You know, you name it, I tried it. Some would work for a week or two and I thought, "Oh, I finally found the answer." And then it would just come back with a vengeance. The symptoms would be roaring out of control. And this was my pattern. I'd get better and get worse, get better and get worse. And then finally, the last gastrointestinal specialist that I saw told me that all of these doctors had seen me. They run all of these tests for over 20 years. No one can find anything wrong. So clearly, it had to be in my head. So I told him, if it was in my head, I could make it stop. Like who would want this for themselves and for their family, you know? Um, but basically that's the last specialist I saw. I came home and I told my husband, "Hey, if we want me to heal, we're going to have to figure this out ourselves because there's no answer for me in Western medicine. They're now telling me I'm lying about the symptoms." And so, we just kept digging and digging and eventually what happened was I did hit a rock bottom. Um we it was my whole family got the flu and they recovered very quickly and I ended up going to the emergency room and after that I was that's when I became just too weak too weak to hold a cup um long enough to drink. I remember there were times when my son who was five at the time he had to come and give me a drink like there was a straw in the cup and he'd have to hold the straw to my mouth just so I could drink. Um I couldn't walk up the stairs. I couldn't stand long enough to even like make a sandwich. Um, every time I breathed, it felt like my ribs were going to break. And when I chewed food, it felt like my teeth were going to fall out. I had severe brain fog. Um, where if I was reading a book to my 5-year-old, like a children's book, I couldn't remember what the book was saying. Um, it was really bad. At this point, I had been listening to free online health summits. Um, I mean, you can still find these today. You know, I was listening to about 40 to 60 hours of these online health summits a week just trying to piece together the puzzle so that I could find the answer and I wouldn't die. Um, and then what happened was after I hit that rock bottom, I remember lying in my bed one morning and every morning before my husband went to work, he would come and get me out of the bed and he'd bring me downstairs and I'd lay on the couch or I'd lay on the floor and he'd set food up and and drinks up for the for my two sons on the table and he'd put the laptop next to me so I could listen to these online summits and I would literally lay there until he got home. And this one morning in particular, I woke up and I remember that I was in too much pain to take the sheet off my body. Like I couldn't move my arm to lift it up. And it was at that point when we knew, like we knew that if I didn't radically do something different, I wouldn't be there to see my kids grow up. Um, and so at that point is when I surrendered to God and I I told him I said, 'You know, I've tried everything. I've tried all my resources. Like, I'm dutifully doing more research every day of, you know, of my life, every minute. I can't figure this out on my own. I've exhausted every avenue. If you would please save me so that my kids don't grow up without a mother, then I spend the rest of my life helping your other kids, you know, the kids of the world find their second chance, too.' And it was that day that I was listening to a health summit and within the first maybe five seconds of this one man speaking, I knew I knew in my bones that's the man that holds the missing piece of my puzzle. And so I he was a functional medicine practitioner. He had just released a book. It was a bestseller. He was on a book tour. He didn't even live in the same state as me. He lived, you know, like halfway I was in Virginia. He lived in Texas at the time. And I said, "You know what? I'm just going to do it." I called and and they told me, "It's a six-month wait list to get in to see him." And I said to them, "I'm not going to be here in six months." And they said, "Well, we can put you on the wait list." It was a total God thing because the next day they called and they had a cancellation. And so I got in to see him that very next day and it it changed everything for me. First of all, he believed me. Like that was step number one. I told him my story and he never questioned it. From the first moment I got on the phone, he said to me, "You're in really bad shape." But I'm here for you and we're going to turn this thing around. And I thought, "Oh my goodness, the power of hope, right? The power of being heard. Someone finally believed me. I was heard. And then somebody gave me hope and let me know what I felt deep down in my bones that this is all reversible, right? Because God can heal anything." And come to find out what I was what I was missing was I didn't know about functional testing. I was relying on all the testing that a western medicine doctor does which in large part are snapshots you know like snapshots of your magnesium in your blood at that moment for instance uh or for food sensitivities. They test true allergies but that's only one pathway in which foods can cause inflammation in the body. There's like eight known pathways. So, seven of mine weren't even being tested, right? So, I worked with him. I learned about um functional medicine testing. Um you know, was trained in it. And I remember the test results came back. Um so, keep in mind, I was on the floor, couldn't do anything. We get the first set of tests back, which was my food sensitivity test, and it said that I was highly reactive, the most reactive you can be to not only chicken and eggs, but get this, bay leaf. Bay leaf. So, you know, we're following GAPS diets. We're following all these natural healing diets. And what do a lot of them recommend? Broths. Bone broth. Well, what do you commonly put in bone broth? Bay leaf. So I had consumed so much bone broth trying to heal my gastrointestinal tract. I developed a sensitivity to bay leaf because I still had a leaky gut at the time that wasn't healing. So we removed uh again that was the first set of tests that came back. I removed chicken and bay leaf and eggs. Those were my final triggers that I couldn't figure out from you know I did diet elimination reintroduction and I was trained in that specialty. I figured everything out except those last three foods and that's because I didn't have any obvious symptoms. You know, after a while it gets really frustrating for people who are sick when you're trying to do diet elimination reintroduction because you often don't have a reaction to that food in that moment. There's something called um you know a delayed hypersensitivity. So you can consume a food and three weeks later have a symptom appear from that food. So it becomes very difficult to track and then you end up having not a you don't have a good baseline after a while, right? I was so sick and so much pain. What difference was I really going to feel when I ate something? So anyhow, I removed those foods and I kid you not, within three days I was off the floor like I wasn't fully healed. But that is the power of the body to heal itself if you just remove its perceived toxins. Three days and I was off the floor. It was incredible. And then from there, you know, we did and there's many tests that we did because, you know, health is like a p a puzzle and you're trying to p piece together that person's story. And so we did many other things. We can get into that if you want. Um, and what happened was I went into what a western doctor would call remission. And so I was, you know, functioning and whatever, but whatever. But I would have a flare-up sometimes. So, let's say I ate too much sugar, even if it was from fruit or I stressed too much. I would have pain come back in my right forearm. And so, that would be an a quote autoimmune flare-up. So, that was an indication that I was only in remission. And I thought, you know, this is silly. Remission is actually just a man-made concept. That's a man-made word. It's another label. And I'm not going to live my life on this label of fear. It's you live in fear that if I eat the wrong food, right, if if I drink the wrong thing, whatever, that it's going to come back. And I said, that's that's no way to live. Fear is the ultimate root cause of all um chronic illness. So that's when um God showed me the final piece of the puzzle, the road map, and that's the emotional component of actual disease formation. I addressed that component and I got out of remission, fully healed. So, it's been about a decade now that I've been fully healed. No signs of inflammation, no signs of any kind of disease in my body.

So, when you make that shift in consciousness from, let's say, from fear to courage and love, are you able to reintegrate other whole foods back into your life that you were having reactions to previously?

Oh, yeah. All of those foods that I tested positive for, even the ones that I tested as the highest immune reactivity for, which even my functional medicine doctor at the time said, "Be prepared. You will not be able to consume those foods again." I chose not to carry that label and not to let it be part of my identity. Now, I can eat all of those foods. And I do eat all of them. I eat them all. I eat everything in moderation. And I cycle my foods how we were meant to, you know, that's we have the seasons. We have different fruits and vegetables and grains that grow at different times of the year. And that's how we were meant to eat. We were meant to cycle the foods to give your immune system, your body, a break from those foods. And so that's a big key into how I've been able to integrate these foods. They are no longer staples in my diet, right? Like a lot of our western diet, we consume the same foods every day. The farm bill is part of the reason why we do that. You know, part of the reason why we're exposed to so much corn and soy and rice, for example. Um, and so you have to be intentional with cycling your foods so that you don't um overwhelm the nervous system and develop these sensitivities.

Fascinating. I'm I'm gonna want to get into that because I'm sure all the listeners want to know about seasonal eating. But uh I'm curious is is this concept and idea of the emotional aspect to disease is this a flaw in the functional medicine approach when they think about things as far as like biological nutrient-based deficiencies or exposure to toxins?

Oh, I love this question. Yes, it is. So for me this is a shortcoming of functional medicine. Now functional medicine is a great huge step forward in advancement from conventional medicine. So I don't want to discourage anybody and it was a functional medicine doctor who helped me figure out functional testing but it doesn't go far enough in my opinion. So the way I see it is you know conventional medicine is largely based on a pill for every ill, right. So um so the answer is not really root cause medicine. It is let's match your symptoms with a label and then we match that label a diagnosis with a medication. Okay. In large part at least that's my experience and others' experience that I know. Then if you go a step further further to functional medicine they're replacing the prescription pharmaceutical medicine with a supplement. So sometimes somebody is so deficient in certain nutrients like in my case for example I tested as not deficient in any nutrient through western medical tests. When I did the functional testing I was deficient in 15 nutrients and I was consuming a multivitamin and mineral every day. I actually used to formulate supplements. That was my first job out of grad school. I was director of research and development of a supplement company. So I was consuming the best of the best and I still was deficient in 15 nutrients. I was so deficient in in some B vitamins that I was borderline for both pellagra and beriberi which used to be eradicated in the US by roughly the mid 1900s. And now we're seeing a resurgence of some of these micronutrient deficiency diseases coming back. But so um so basically if somebody what the literature the scientific literature shows us is that if somebody is extremely deficient in a nutrient like I was supplementation can provide a benefit as it did in my case. If you are not extremely deficient in these nutrients then there is literature to show that that these supplements can actually do more harm than good. And I'm talking about the supplements that are like the synthetic supplements made in a lab. I'm not talking about whole food supplements. I'm not talking about cod liver oil, things like that.

What about like magnesium for example?

Yeah. So I would prefer to get magnesium like through food. Um again in cases of extreme deficiency there's evidence that it is beneficial to that person. But it but again there's many studies out there showing that if you are not like deficient, if you're just trying to take it as a preventative, it may not be the best approach for you. You may want

To even just switch over to whole food supplements. You know, get it from foods as much as possible. Sunlight is very important, as we can talk about a lot. Stress; it all of this is really at the root cause of it; it is the stress. Stress management is really key. Stress will eat up your magnesium, right? If and and your B vitamins, for example. So, it's really just trying to put a band-aid on it if you're taking those those supplements. Um, but so anyways, yes.

So, that's their focus: let's run these tests. Their tests are better than what most of the tests for Western medicine. Okay. Um, but they have they basically fill in those gaps with um, you know, with supplements. And that's actually where a lot of them make a lot of their money is on selling the supplements, which is it's fine. That's just a business model. So be aware of it when they're telling you to consume more supplements. There are other ways to fill in these nutritional gaps. All right.

So then if you move beyond functional medicine, this is more of the holistic approach that involves the emotional component. Functional medicine does acknowledge stress, but Western medicine also acknowledges stress. The CDC itself acknowledges stress as an underlying root cause. I saw a stat one time that said something like the CDC said 90 or 95% of all chronic diseases are either caused by or related to stress. So even they're acknowledging the stress component, but it is not addressed. We're not really teaching stress management and emotional intelligence, emotional regulation, and functional medicine doesn't do it either. They may sit there and say, "Okay, how's your stress? And do you have toxic relationships?" But they're not really explaining how it is the root to these imbalances. And disease is really just imbalance. They're not explaining it and they're not um actually taking you through the steps of how you can actually manage your stress better and how do you forgive? Like these are questions I grappled with that you know that it takes a while because we're not a culture of really forgiveness.

No, I mean you bring up so many important points because they might measure like cortisol levels and stuff and they're still going to prescribe you something, some supplement for that, and we're not really getting at the root cause of that disease. This discussion is reminding me of a previous podcast episode I did with Dr. Ma Zingfi, who's a radiation oncologist, and she says something I thought was just absolutely fascinating because she was she was talking about those who recovered from like stage four cancer when they were bas when they were told by the medical establishment, by contemporary medicine, that they should start, you know, preparing for their end of life, that there's not much more they can do, and she's been exposed to these so-called medical miracles, and what she said is the people who ultimately heal didn't view their cancer as necessarily a disease, but rather a message. Like it was like almost a gift that they realized was to get them back on path of whatever their sole mission was. And she said true freedom is only possible through faith and then views this is crit critical and healing.

So, I'm curious to know, you know, how you made sense of your disease, your symptoms, your struggles. Um, in any ways, was was this a a gift for you? And tell me a little bit more about like faith for you in the context of healing and wellness.

Yes. So, I look back and I am grateful for the health journey that I went through. I'm grateful for the sickness that I had because it completely changed my entire life. It allowed me to see not only like what was important to me, but it allowed me to start prioritizing things. And what I realized was I was on a treadmill that I didn't feel like I had much meaning to my life. Like I had a great husband, you know, I had five dogs and I had two kids. Um, and I was very accomplished on paper, but I didn't feel like I had much worth. Um, I didn't feel worthy. And so, one thing it helped me to see is that relationships are so important for me. They are the most important thing. It's more important than accolades, you know, and awards and titles. Um, and so I started to really focus on relationships um, with my kids, with my husband, with my community, you know, with God. Um, and that's how I move forward in my life that I want I want others to feel when they're with me. I want them to feel like I'm with them in the moment. I see them; like I'm looking them in the eyes. I see them for who they are. I love them and accept them for who they are. And I'm not trying to change them. I'm just trying to meet them where they are. And that's what I really realized it was the root cause of illness. It's that it's the lack of worth. It's that we don't feel loved and and accepted. And so, we're constantly chasing this external validation, right? It's it's a chronic state of stress actually that we're in when we don't feel loved and accepted. And this is something that um that actually God helped me see because he helped me to understand the concept of the biofield. Um and have you talked about that already on the show?

No, I have the questions for you. So, go right ahead.

Oh, great. Okay. It's quite new for me personally in my in my readings and my research. I'm absolutely fascinated by it. Um I do a lot of work to try to increase my own energy frequency based on what I am reading. Not only because I learned it intellectually because I feel it in my heart like you know when you know when you're in the presence of truth you can you can experience it like almost energetically. So let's let's start with u the concept of the biofield.

Okay, that's fantastic. So um the biofield in in case anyone hasn't um heard that term before, it was actually described by the National Institute of Health, right? They actually gave this definition and I'm I'm going to read a definition for you. It's it's a complex dynamic energy field involved in maintaining the integrity of the whole organism, regulating its physiologic and biochemical responses, and it's integral to development, healing and regeneration. So the field is responsible for everything. It organizes everything in your physical self. So um most people are familiar with like EKGs and EEGs and so those are measuring the electricity of the of the body of different organs, right? So Einstein said that anytime you have um electricity you generate an electric field and a magnetic field. Collectively we call that the electromagnetic field or the EMF. And now Western science has measured your electromagnetic field, your EMF. We can measure it coming off of the different organs themselves. Um we can measure it coming off of the collectively as the body. And we call that collective, you know, the the adding of all your bio fields of all your electrodic fields together. We call that the biofield. And it does come out from the body. Um how strong your field depends on how much it comes out from the body. But it's measured. It can even come out eight feet or more from the body, particularly from the heart space. And it circles all around the body. Like you know, if you've ever seen um pictures of the earth and we draw this electromagnetic field around it, right? And it goes all the from the top all the way around and back into the bottom. Your electromagnetic field of your body, it has the sim similar structure of of that. So it's picture it's all around you. This is known in all major um cultures spanning back through time. So in Ayurvedic medicine they call it prana. In Chinese medicine it's called chi. Um in chiropractic or holistic healing they sometimes call it the vital life force. In Western medicine we call it the biofield. Now it sounds kind of foreign to a lot of people today because this is not the mainstream narrative. And certainly when you go into your doctor they're not going to be talking to you about oh let's bring coherence to your biofield, right? Um but you know it's might shock people but east um Western medicine actually used to believe in this organizing energy field; they believed in this and they practiced it, and then reductionist thinking took over in the 19th century, so that would be like oh we're going to do the scientific method and we're going to distill everything down to its smallest unit, you know, try to control for all these variables. We'll reduce everything down. Isolate one compound in this pathway and we're going to say this is the compound um that's causing X disease for example, right? And not to bash scientists because I am a Western trained scientist, right? So um but it is it is a form of reductionist thinking. So again, reductionist thinking took hold in the 19th century and they kind of poo pooed this whole concept of there's this organizing energy field, but now the biofield is making a comeback and it's been shown to have this critical role in healing, regenerating the body um and even preventing disease.

So the way I like to think of the biofield is that um it is this organizing field around you. So your physical body is actually downstream of your energetic body. Okay? So when people go in and they we're so used to chasing the physical in in um in my training and in medical school for example, they teach you that the body is a machine. It's made up of different parts and as long as you have all the parts working, then the body should work, right? So that is a reductionist way of thinking and it takes out the energetic component. It takes out the intuition. It takes out the spiritual component which even Einstein and you know Nicola Tesla acknowledged as being above logic, right? Intuition in this the field was a was more powerful; it was more knowledgeable um you know than basically this reductionist thinking of logic. So they highly valued it. So you have this energy field and it carries your instructions for how to build your body. So we're taught that your DNA is your carries your blueprint, right, for how um what color eyes you're going to have, you know, how how many how many neurotransmitters and what type you're going to produce, right? What kind of hormones you're going to produce, things like that. And there is epigenetics that can change which genes are um upregulated, which ones are downregul. So basically which genes are going to be expressed um and not but ultimately that is all downstream of your field. So your field is um energy and energy carries information. And so the field is constantly sending information to the body to tell it which hormones to make to tell it you know which neurotransmitters, which genes to upregulate. So that information is not coming from the DNA. Like the DNA is not saying to itself, oh, um, like we need to make more serotonin, so let's make more serotonin. Something tells the DNA to do that. You can argue that, okay, it's structured water. That's true. Let's at least this is our current truth, right? The truth seems to change, but our current understanding is you have structured water in the body. Um, and this is, you know, the vast amount of water in your body is structured. It it's it wants to be coherent. And that's when it operates I um optimally. If you have a lot of structured water in your body, we say that you you don't um you're not in a diseased state. When you become diseased or out of balance, the water starts to unstructure. So you have the structured water that can actually hold the DNA in different configurations which tells the DNA which part of it to express and which doesn't express, right? But then what tells the structured water how to organize itself, right? So you have to keep digging deeper and deeper because this is still on the reductionist level; what tells the structured water how to organize itself is in essence light; it's energy coming from the field in this field. What do you what's in it? So, if this is the instruction manual for making your body, what is in that field? Well, what are emotions? Emotions are just energy. They are vibrational frequencies. So, if you have emotions that let's say um you're angry. So, let's take me for example. When I was a child, for about eight years, I was molested by my stepfather. So I was very angry about that. You know, you can imagine the whole slew of emotions that I held on to. Those emotions were sitting in my field. They're like energetic imprints in your field. It's like a memory, right? Have you read that book, The Body Keeps the Score? So you have these memories um these energetic memories of these emotions when you haven't let them go and they're imprinted into the field. And so all of these emotions at their ultimate root are based on fear. So you can kind of boil it down. I'm really simplifying here, but this is this is what it boils down to. That root emotion is fear. And so if you can imagine instead of having an energetic imprint in your field of gratitude and joy and love and that message being sent to your body, now imagine the flip. You have anger and fear. Be sending that message of anger and fear to your body. How would your body build itself differently under those two conditions, right? One is going to shoot your cortisone super high, right? You're going to have high insulin levels. You're going to have high epinephrine. You know, you're going to you're going to be in fight or flight. We there's um the exact number is not known, but it's estimated that nowadays, unlike our ancestor, ancient ancestors, we spend about 70% of our time in fight or flight, right? Fight, flight, or freeze or fawn. And in large part, it's not it's obviously not because we're walking down the street and there's, you know, tigers jumping out at us. It's that we have these what I call emotional tigers and they're embedded in your biofield because you haven't let go of those low vibrational frequency emotions. And so when it sends that fear message because fight or flight is a fear response. So when you sit there, it sends that message of fear to your body and your body will build your biology accordingly. It will and it's doing it to protect you because you are sending the message that there is fear in your environment, right? That you're afraid. So you're telling the body be prepared because there's danger here. And so it is doing exactly what you're asking it to do. Once you forgive, you know, go through those steps and um you kind of transmute that emotion, right? You you let it go. So, I like to think of it as I hand it back over to God, you know, because he can carry all the burdens, right? And so, I hand it back over to him. And once you do that, you make room in your field for fruits of the spirit, for joy and love and gratitude. And that's when you build a whole new body. So, there are examples of this. If you look in the medical literature and you'll see things like spontaneous healings, sometimes they're called spontaneous remission because that's Western medicine, but like spontaneous healings. You will see these in the literature. So, um I I had this study, let me see, there's this one that said this was a 2011 review. It's affirmed that spontaneous healing from cancer quote is now accepted as an indisputable fact and it is not rare. Okay. Most if you go back then you look through these um spontaneous healings in large part they have forgiveness as a component as a root cause. So there was a woman who had stage four cancer, inoperable. They basically sent her home to get her affairs in order. So she goes home and she uh got all of her girlfriends together. They did this huge bonfire in her yard and and what happened was she her husband had um an affair and she was like I'm you know if I'm going to die I'm just going to let everything go. So they had this big bonfire. She threw all of his stuff. She burned it. She burned all of his stuff that she had laying around the house in this bonfire. She screamed. She yelled. She cried, you know, and all her girlfriends around her supporting her. By the end of this bonfire, her girlfriends and her were laughing. They were joyful. They were celebrating. She goes back to the doctor. The cancer literally dissolved. Dissolved. No trace of it. And that is the power of forgiveness. Is the power of your emotions. What happened was she didn't have that energetic imprint in her field anymore of that low vibrational frequency of fear, right? She had lack of self-worth. She didn't feel worthy. When she let that all go and she forgave, it made room for joy and gratitude and the body healed because the blueprint changed. Right? That's why you'll see so many people now getting um there's like a lot of functional medicine doctors for example that have figured out how to get people into remission which is a beautiful wonderful thing like I'm grateful that they provide that to people but how you get out of that remission and become fully healed is to work on this emotional level; you've got to change your blueprint that's in your field; otherwise you can temporarily be uh reverse a condition into remission, but you will stay in remission because you have the same blueprint. It's the same instructions that are feeding your body, right? You're telling it the same message and it's going to start building the body again out of a space of fear. And we all know this because you'll hear of cancer survival for survivors and they'll say, "Oh, we got all the cancer, right? We've checked there's no we checked all the margins and everything and all the cancer is gone." But it's it's not; it comes back. Most of these times these diseases end up finding a way back. It may not be the same autoimmune condition. It may be a different condition that appears, but you're moving down that continuum regardless if you are not addressing this emotional um root cause of it.

Okay, there's so there's so much there. Um, I can't even begin to tell you how many times the same message that you're communicating has been brought on to my podcast in different ways, in different perspectives, and how often this is placed in front of my path right now as far as books that I'm reading or um people that I meet. Do you believe in the concept of uh like synchronicities that God is trying to teach or communicate or reach us through various methods?

I do because that's what happens to me. He'll show me something and I may just kind of poo poo it the time, but I will get multiple um I will get the same message through multiple avenues. You know, an email that comes through, a newsletter that comes through, someone shares a podcast with me, someone says something. You know, it it happens to me all the time. And that's when I know that I need to take note that this is God trying to tell me that this is your next step. You know, I believe that he gives you what you're ready for. And that's what he did on my path of healing. He didn't just hand me all the steps like he so and it was really kind of fascinating because he he put in front of me what I was ready to hear. And then when I got into the remission point and I said, like I said, I didn't want to live in fear anymore. And I was like, okay, well, what's next? Like, I'm I'm really tired of dealing with this illness. Like, can you just help me get past this so I can move on with my life? You know, and I'm I remember it vividly. I was standing in the kitchen and I was cooking and all of a sudden it was like fireworks went off in my brain. And this has never happened to me. There was the one time this happened to me. It was like bam bam bam bam like fireworks and I just saw he connected all the pieces for me. What he did was he built a road map in my head. It was like bam bam bam bam bam and there was these five main steps on this road map and the emotional part was the fifth aspect of it. So I immediately sat down and just started writing everything down and then I tried it out like the emotional one I tried on myself um and I tried this road map out on my husband. So, um he had a recurring lime and he he had uh just been diagnosed with lupus and so we tried that road map out on him and it reversed everything. My son had um an idiopathic joint disease which obviously means you know we have we don't know why that's happening but he had a hard time where he couldn't even stand in the shower without his joints hurting. Um he was probably like six at the time. Um and he also had um autism uh from a vaccine and we tried the steps; everything fully reversed even the autism. So I just started testing it on one

Person after person, and it reversed it. It reversed everything. It's how I know that you can reverse any type of, you know, disease—from diabetes to heart disease to, um, I mean, cancers to arthritis. I mean, any of these conditions, you can reverse them.

And since then, I have found in the literature, like study after study, um, documenting reversal of all of these quote-unquote chronic diseases, including Parkinson's and ALS. Like, all of these can be reversed.

But yes, to your point, um, the w-the reason that I was able to—that I was able to finally heal and then heal other—help other people find their solutions so they can heal themselves—is because of God handing me a piece at a time when I was ready. And He still does it now. And now I just say to Him, "Okay, I'm ready." Like, because I'm—I'm so fascinated by this area, and now I feel so great. I want to see how much better can I feel. Like, I am—this—I'm almost 50. I had my third child at the age of 45, and she was my healthiest child ever—like, of all three of my kids. Um, and I bounced right back as well. Um, and like I said, I'm almost 50 this year, and I feel better than I've ever felt in my entire life. So now I'm like, well, what else is there? Like, how much better can I get? And so I'm constantly learning more.

Um, and I think also part of it is because, you know, as a Western-trained scientist, I was trained in reductionist thinking, and—and what I was taught was very narrow-minded. I'm grateful for a lot of it—like, I have a strong biochemistry background, which helped me piece the—um—the puzzles—the pieces of the puzzle together and helped me put those—um—puzzle pieces together to figure out my healing story. So I am grateful for it, but I feel like—I feel like our—like academia does a disservice to us because it—there's so much more to know, and there's so many possibilities. For instance, there's so many different ways to reverse these conditions that so many people are suffering from, and we don't talk about it. Like, we're not taught these things in—in academia. Um, at least nobody that I know has taught these things, because I've never seen it in a medical—medical school curriculum. I certainly was never taught this. And I went to one of the top nutrition schools in the country, but I was never taught how to actually help somebody heal, or it was never even brought up that you could potentially do that. It's purposeful, Cena. Like—like this is—this is part of a greater pharmaceutical industrial complex. I mean, the—most important thing to—for people to know is—a dead patient doesn't make money, and a healthy patient doesn't make money. You have—that's right—you have to be stuck in a perpetual state of confusion, fear, and anxiety, always seeking externally from the medical establishment to find something to try to heal, and that's what keeps people stuck.

What's interesting is there might be people who are listening right now and sounds like—um—like voodoo nonsense. The truth of the matter is—is that there is a strong scientific base for actually everything that you're saying, and it is suppressed. It is actively suppressed. And once you choose to open up your heart and your mind to look for it, not only will it—its existence be made known to you, but—um—it's—it's there. And there's groups of people, and there's research institutes, and there's major academic programs that are doing this, and this is like hard science, but there is an economic, financial, spiritual benefit for keeping people stuck in 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 years previous in the model, which is—current—allopathic model—is to think about it from the reductionist perspective.

Now, if we get into energy medicine, and what's interesting is five years ago, a woman told me that I would be getting into a field called energy psychology. I didn't even know what it is. I didn't even know anything—what it meant. Um, but every time I met with her, she gave me another book and another book and another book and another book. So, I feel like I'm coming here today, not something I'm completely open about yet because I'm—I feel like God has given me pieces, and every time I just ask for more wisdom, it builds off of the next—like, I wouldn't have been ready for that information a year ago. I wouldn't have been ready for this podcast episode a year ago. So, I want to get—um—deeper into this idea of a biofield. I don't know if you've read—uh—the book *Pure Human* by Greg Braden. I suggest you read it, um, because he's actually speaking to what you're—you're talking about, um, but with various levels of sophistication and in—like—what our cells and what our DNA actually is designed to do—um—and that is to con—that is to connect to source—to God—to a greater consciousness, right? Um, and there's really good evidence for these—for these things—is like once we—once we understand that there's an illusion of separation—like—and it's what I mean by the illusion of separation is that you are somehow—we are somehow disconnected from God, or we are disconnected from all of nature, we're disconnected from each other. Once—once you realize that's all an illusion, you can get in—aligned with source consciousness, you can get aligned with God—that energy state—that biofield—and literally what you ask for will be provided for you, but you have to set that state of consciousness, or you're going to go back to automatic programming. And this is—talk—this is spoken about in Greg Braden's book about what we're actually facing. If you see things from a greater perspective right now—from the antihuman transhumanist movement—that—that goal with AI and all of that is to disconnect us from source—to disconnect us from our divine intelligence.

It is not a coincidence that when you handed everything over to that intelligence—when you handed everything over to God, then you were aligned in a place of healing, and now you know so much more than you did at that time. And how that was a gift and how it's a blessing because now you have this knowledge base.

It's almost like it's getting channeled into you, isn't it? Like, you—I could just step back and let you go, and I feel like that's channeled from source.

Yes, exactly. You described that so eloquently. Thank you. Yes, that's exactly what happened. It was like before I had that humbling moment where I reached out to source, it was like fighting an uphill battle, a losing battle, you know, there was no way I was going to win that. And I knew it. Like, I knew my days were just numbered. And all I had done was I'd used my logical brain, right? And I'd used—um—references and resources that were around me. Um, and—but as soon as I tapped into source, it opened up an entire new world for me. And like you, some of it was hard for me to—to—um—accept, you know, like emotional freedom technique, tapping, even though it's been validated by Ivy League schools. Um, my friend sent that to me in a newsletter. She's like, "Maybe you should check out emotional freedom technique and start tapping." And I was like, "Oh my goodness, tapping on my—my hands and everything. Like, what's that going to do?" So, I actually dismissed it for a while, and God kept sending it back to me. I will say that I became so much more open-minded than I ever would have because I was almost dying. I mean, I, you know, I was almost dead. So, when that happens to you—at least it did for me—I didn't care what the reason was, what the method was. I just wanted to live, you know, I didn't want my kids to grow up without a parent. So, I was willing to try anything at that point. And that's when I got all of those amazing downloads—was when I just became totally open, and I was like, go—question everything that I've ever been taught. Replace it. Tell me I'm wrong. I don't care. Just show me what the truth is, you know? And ever since then, that's what I've done. Like—uh—I'll—as soon as I'm finished researching something, you know, doing a deep dive on something, I say, "Okay, I'm ready for what's next. Just show me." Even if it negates something I just said on a podcast two months ago. Just show me. And then they, you know, I'm shown the next step. Um, and it—it's amazing.

This is—one way—my girlfriend was just talking about this the other day with me because people who know me, they're like, "It's—it's—it's really remarkable because you can manifest things really easily." So, I'll want something, you know, I figure out what I want—like something I really want—like with all my heart, you know, like I'm passionate about, and then I just put it out there—like—into the universe, into source. I might say, "Okay, God, you know, this is really what I want." I stay open, though. Like, I stay—there's that humbleness part of it that I think is good to maintain—to be like, "Okay, this is what I want, but if you see something better or something that you think I'm supposed to be doing, push me onto that path, right?" But I will—I literally will just speak—speak it out loud, and it comes to reality. Sometimes the very next day, the opportunity comes to me. It's really quite remarkable.

This is also—um—if this sounds really far out there, this is also like a biblical concept. Um, Proverbs says, "Whatsoever a man thinks, so he is." Um, also in Proverbs says, "Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits," right? We are—we are told to speak life over ourselves every day—to renew our minds every day. For me, that is—you forgive, right? You let go of the past, because when I am tied to my past, it is this energetic connection there that does not allow me to connect to source in the same capacity. It does not allow me to manifest in the same way because my energy is spent in the past. So if you renew your mind every day, you—for—you forgive. You wake up, I'm going to forgive what happened that was in the past, right?

Oh, go ahead.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's such an important question. Um, because I think you—I don't know if everyone just picked up on it, but I think you just defined forgiveness for us, but—um—can—can you define it?

Yeah. So for me, uh, forgiveness is cutting the energetic bond to whatever happened—the person—the event—whatever—you cut the energetic bond to it. It's saying that I no longer will allow that to—take my power, right?—to drain my energy anymore. And so for me, it's—it's one of the best—the most—the kindest things—the best act of love you can do for yourself. It's not saying that what they did was okay. Like, so for my instance with my stepfather, I'm not dismissing what he did. I'm not saying that it's okay. But what I'm saying is it's not my energetic burden to carry. And so I—I literally cut that energetic cord and release it and give it back to—to that person, or you can give it back to God, or whatever. Um, and so I still remember it happened, like, you know—so I'm not saying that you have to forget—any of that. But when I think about it now, I don't get angry. I—I'm not upset about it because I cut that energetic tie to it. I have forgiven, right? And in fact, um, do we have time that I can tell you my story about how I knew I forgave him?

Okay, this—this was the first time this ever happened to me. Of course, you can imagine this is a big thing to forgive, you know, for so long. He—um—I got—he was—he was in California, and I was living in Virginia at this time, and I got a call in the middle of the night that he wasn't going to make it, and—and that actually my mother also wasn't going to make it. They're both in the emergency room. And they said, "You need to fly out now. If you want to say goodbye, you might make it in time." So I flew, and I said to my husband, I was like, "I have to go because I need him to say I'm sorry, right?" And my husband's like, "You're not going to get that from him. I don't know what you're doing." I said, "Well, I have to try," right? The whole plane ride over there, I'm writing—like—on napkins and everything, I'm writing out—like—all the things that I ever wanted to say to him, right? All because I was like, "This is my last chance. I have to get it all out now because I've never been able to actually forgive. This is what I need." So, the plane lands—cross-country, right? I had a lot of time to think about this. The plane lands. I go into the emergency room. I see him first. And I kid you not, and I'm ready. I'm like, I'm unloading—like—like I'm unleashing all these thoughts onto him. I literally open the door to his, you know, where he was. I see him laying on the bed. Obviously, he's in such a vulnerable position. It would be like easy prey at this point, right? I looked at him, and I kid you not, this was totally a divine—um—a divine thing because I felt this wave come over me of release in that instantaneous moment. I had forgiven him. I didn't need him to say anything to me. I didn't need him to ever say I'm sorry for any of it. It wouldn't have mattered either way. I knew that I was done. I was over it. I walked to the side of his bed. I held his hand, and I had the best conversation with him I'd ever had in my entire life. And—and he practically raised me—like—from the time I was like eight. Him—him and my mother. I lived with them—whole lifespan spent with this man. This was the moment that I actually had this meaningful conversation with him. And as crazy as this sounds—although this is biblical—as crazy as this sounds, I left the room, and I cried, and I told my husband, I wish I had done that sooner because I just connected with a part of that man, I could have been friends with him. Like, isn't that crazy? Like, if I had—if I had said that—if I'd heard somebody say that to me—like—even a day earlier, I would have been like, "Oh, Stockholm syndrome"—like, you know—like—like that's just crazy, or you don't have any self-respect, or you know, you don't care enough about yourself. You're letting them walk all over you. It didn't matter anymore to me, you know, I saw him as a soul, a child of God who was wounded. He was wounded. He was hurting. And that's the moment that I realized, oh my goodness, what was his childhood like? Not to excuse or dismiss, but I was in the space where I had compassion, and I could understand. Turns out he had a horrible, horrible, abusive childhood as well. If you could believe it, he did better as a father than—than his father did, you know. But anyhow, that might be an extreme case of forgiveness, but it is a biblical type of forgiveness where, you know, you—where you learn to love everybody—you see them as a child of God. And I saw who he really was. I saw a piece of his soul. And I've never looked back. Like, he—he has passed on since. But I don't have any negative feelings whatsoever when I—when somebody asks me about that time in my life. Nor does it creep up into my life. It's usually during interviews, you know, when we talk about forgiveness that I bring it up. It's not even part of my identity anymore. And I think that's a big key. When you don't—and when you don't cut the energetic tie, it stays part of your identity because it's in your field, right? So, it is part of your mental identity, your emotional identity, your spiritual identity, and it becomes—your physical identity. It's like when people come to me and they have all these chronic conditions, when I'm talking to them, it's like I can see these fingerprints on their different organs and their systems. It's these fingerprints of traumas that have happened to them in the past that they have not cut this energetic tie to. So, it's—it's one of the most powerful things that you can ever do for yourself and for the other person. They can feel it when you cut that tie. Like, I've had so many people say to me—like people who, you know, maybe I've kept on the periphery a little bit, but I've energetically cut the tie. And I will have them email me or text me and be like, you know, what's going on? Why are you distancing yourself from me? I haven't heard from you in a while, or whatever. They can feel it. It's like you're saying because we're all connected.

Coming around to that point. If—if you're—if you're willing to go there, I would like to bring light into the conversation because—um—we are light beings, and we've known this since at least the 70s. You know, Dr.—um—I think it was Albert Fritz-Pop—um—he did photo—you know—photobiomodulation, and he figured out that the body actually emits biophotons. So, we generate light in our body, and we emit them. We can measure it now—that there's—there's Western peer-reviewed scientific studies in the literature that show images of the body emitting light. And by the way, we emit a lot of light through our hands, which I find fascinating because how did Jesus heal people? Often it was through His hands. We have measured the light coming out of people. You talk about energy healers. There's—um—I can't remember where this was done. I can get you the study, though. Um, they measured—they brought in many energy healers into a lab, and they measured the biophotons coming out of their hands, and then they had them do an energy session, and the biophoton emission from their hands went like sixfold higher on average. So they were able to generate more light through their intention, right? It's through your consciousness. So, and we also have—um—on pictures of when—when the sperm and the egg unite. This is something called the zinc spark that happens. Light is emitted. We have it on camera. We know this is a thing that exists. Um, to me, if you ask someone like me, or—um—Jordan Peterson has talked about this where he equates it to consciousness, and I think that is true. This makes sense to me so far that—that is—um—consciousness entering that soul, that spark of light. I think that this indicates that light is the first line of communication. This is our first way to communicate. God created light. Um, you know, it wasn't until the fourth day, I believe, that He created the sun, but on the first day, I believe—I might have those days like off by one, but I believe day four He created the sun, day one He created light. And so that light that He created is not the sun. It's diff—it's something different. I think that's consciousness. And I think we're seeing that in that zinc spark—is that consciousness. We now know that all the cells in the body emit light. It has been measured. Neurons, for example, they emit light. And this is really cool. They—um—if a neuron is injured, it will send out—like—an SOS beacon to neighboring neurons; it—it's—it's asking them for help. Those neighboring neurons could actually emit something—like—in the range of a red light. We—most of us have heard of red light therapy, you know, which is biophoto—uh—modulation. Well, your own nerves can emit those types of wavelengths—the red light wavelengths—to heal neighboring nerves and to heal themselves. So it's an amazing—um—it's amazing—like—orchestra of—you know—of different complex reactions that has been designed, and it all is connected through light. So if we talk about the field, let's bring this back to the DNA. We know that when the DNA unravels, it emits light. And so what I think is that—your field is generating light, and we can—you know—we can measure it, and some people can see it even. So it emits this light, and it sends the—the information that we talked about that gets sent from your biofield to create your—your physical body. It's sent in part in a form of light, and that light—I believe it must get channeled. Some people are theorizing that the DNA channels the light. The mitochondria may channel it. But I think for sure one thing that we're showing is that regardless of

Which, um, components of the body are channeling it? They're they're sending it like a highway. Like mitochondria will send light to neighboring mitochondria like a highway effect. Your, um, connective tissue in your body, your fascia, is like a highway of information, and light travels down that highway to send signals.

So, if you think about things like lightning flash, lightning-fast reflexes, right? We've all used that term before, like if you touch a hot stove and you pull your hand back, and we describe it as a lightning-fast reflex. Well, if you look at the biochemistry of the body, it can't explain the quickness of every reflex that we have. So, we think some of these are mediated by light, in fact. So, there's a lot of things that are happening in the body that, um, I believe these things are all, um, regulated and modulated by light signals. And in fact, Dr. Pop went a step further and he talked about the light in food. And so even food emits biophotons. And what you want to have is coherent light. Okay? So sometimes, um, so when somebody is sick, and you can measure this when somebody has a disease or, you know, an imbalance, they can measure the amount of light coming off of that organ, for example, and what happens is the light becomes chaotic. You remember I talked about structured water, and we want it to be coherent. Well, the light, if it loses coherency, that's a measure of sickness in that organ or in that tissue. Um, and so for food, it's the same way. We want coherent light in the food. Dr. Pop explained it as though we are sucking light out of our food when we eat. So, it's not even so much about, um, you know, the exact molecules, the molecular structure of what we're eating. It's about how much light that food has.

This makes sense in the terms of, you know, I've debunked calories a long time ago, and I think everyone is pretty much on that same page. A calorie is not a calorie, right? And that's not the most important thing in your food is a calorie, right? Broccoli and a Coke are both considered carbohydrates by nutritionists, right? Um, and the same amount of calories of Coke and the same amount of calories of broccoli is going to do very different things in your body. Okay? Now, the broccoli will have much more light, coherent light than the soda. Okay, processed food, we've we've kind of given it the term of dead food, and you've probably heard that before. We term processed food dead food. Well, we started to call it that in large part because of the missing microbiome on those foods. And we know you need these microbes, um, to keep you alive, right? We're more microbe than we are quote-unquote human cell. So what we know now, though, is it's not just that they are devoid of these healthy, robust microbes of the processed food. It's devoid of light, and so you're not actually able to suck light from that food. So what you want is to be able to suck coherent light out of food.

Studies have been done on this, and they've actually been able to tell the difference in coherent light between something, for instance, like, um, an egg that came from a CAFO or confined animal feeding operation versus an egg from a pastured farm. Right? So we can measure the difference in the light here. And so I think once you can open your mind to the concept that we are light, health is a state of coherent light in through the body. And ancient cultures talk about this too. They talk about stuck energy, right? Dr. Bruce Lipton talked about stuck energy. He talked about it in terms of neuropeptides in the body getting stuck and not being able to, you know, metabolize and be excreted from the body. It's the same concept. I'm just taking it a step out from the physical level to the origin of it, which is the light. So, you want to try to achieve coherent light in order to be healthy. And so, this is a whole different way to look at it. And I think it simplifies it because all you have to do is ask, like, if you're trying to think of what to eat, one of the biggest questions you can ask yourself is which of these foods is going to bring me more coherent light? And that's what I tell my kids when they want to eat something. I'm like, "Well, which one can you suck the most coherent light from?" Like, it's kind of a fun a fun way to think about it, too. But that's the concept. You are energizing yourself with the coherent light from that food.

Can I ask you a question about how that relates to seasonal eating? Obviously, there's, um, uh, you know, there's seasons of our life, and there's seasons that that there's there's life, there's death, there's rebirth, and so forth. Um, are you saying that like if we eat foods out of season, is that does that mean that it might not have the abundance of the light that we're looking for?

Yes. Now, as far as I'm aware, we do not have controlled studies to measure that, but yes, the most the logical conclusion would be that when you eat something in season, um, it's going to have a certain amount of coherent light when it's a healthy food. Okay? As it decays or goes through senescence, the light will become less coherent, right? So, if you pick food out of season, so a lot of our food in our grocery store, like a lot of the produce is not in season, right? We'll pick it, we'll sh we'll coat it in like a wax, um, to keep it from decaying, like to slow down the decay, and we'll ship it, and then we'll oftent times artificially, maybe through gas, for instance, artificially ripen it, and then we get it. So the thought is the light is not going to have the same coherency as if you just went to a a tree and you picked that same fruit off of a tree, right? And we already know nutritionally it's different that we've been able to measure on the physical level. It will not have the same amount of like the same ratio of carbohydrates and other nutrients in it, um, because you've altered that. You've you've stopped its life cycle, like you've you haven't in some cases you stopped it, but at least you've slowed it down tremendously. So it's not going to be the same nutritional profile as if you picked it fresh. And so what I'm saying is because that those physical nutrients are basically downstream of the type of light that is being created by that food, it's logical then that the light must also be distorted in that food. Okay.

Can we play a true false game?

Sure. So, I think we we we can do this right now as a a way to try to summarize some of the things you've been speaking about, but things that I'm learning and I want to get your sense of if you believe them to be true or false, and hopefully, and I'll ask for guidance on this and try to surrender that there's some practical aspects of the questions I'm going to ask that people can maybe potentially utilize almost immediately. So first, can we experience or do we experience and do we feel the field of people around us?

Yes. So we there is definitely everybody has their own field, and the fields interact, and this is I think this is basic physics that yeah, the these your if you think of your field as energy like they have the wave and particle, and they will interact with each other, and this is one way if you can so the listeners may have experienced you walk into a room and you can feel that it's heavy, right? People are talking about something heavy, maybe they're sad, or you walk into a room and without even looking you can feel that there's joy. You know when someone's talking about you, even if like you can't if if they're like behind you and not even looking at them, you can kind of sense someone staring at you sometimes. Right? These are all things that we think are happening through the fields interacting. Some people can feel it more than others. I'm very sensitive to EMFs. Very sensitive. So I have, um, and empaths do this. So you've heard of empaths. So sometimes it's hard for me to go out in large crowds because I feel their energy, which in essence means I'm feeling their field, but it also makes it be really empathetic toward people. Like I can almost walk in their shoes when they're talking to me because I feel what they're feeling. So yes, I think that's your fields interacting. Okay. So true. Yes. True. Do you want me to just say a true or false or do you want me to explain?

Now I'd like you to say first true or false and then you can explain. That's true. Okay. Okay. So if that's the case, are there a lot of people out there who are unawakened to this, not conscious to this, who are absorbing the fields of other people around them and interpreting it as if it's their own experience and maybe even mislabeling it?

True. Okay. Does this open up, you know, I'm I'm a clinical psychologist, so my focus is on the mental health field. Do you think this opens up an entire area that we should be redirecting our attention in being able to help people who who who experience their their emotions intensely or are very sensitive or empathic in relationships and find themselves in repeated patterns that are creating for them a lot of pain and distress?

True. Yes, for sure, especially as somebody who feels it. You, uh, because I noticed that I would, you know, growing up I would often think that I was like a jackal and hide because I'd feel okay one minute and the next minute I wouldn't. And my parents were like, "Well, maybe you have bipolar or whatever, you know." But what I realized was it depended on who I was around because I was taking on their energy and I couldn't tell the difference between my energy and theirs. It would just change me instantly. Yes. Um, and so you I've been learning to kind of you kind of like put yourself in a bubble, you kind of shield yourself, um, before going into some of those environments or, you know, I have some toxic people in my family, and so before talking to them, um, I will have to kind of shield myself so I don't take on that negativity because yeah, because my husband and family would know like if I was if I had just talked to certain people on the phone, they would know as soon as I got off they were like, oh, you talked to such and such because I was a different person. Yeah. Um, okay, so then next question here, um, so obviously we can influence the fields of others. Does that mean then, uh, that in consciousness or in being able to raise our frequency or our energy that we can positively impact the experience of another person and maybe be from our presence in a state of love and r and in increasing, uh, state of consciousness or frequency, we can be impactful in their healing, even their physical healing?

True. Okay. So, consciousness can change matter.

Yes, consciousness can change matter. And you know, I think one of the best well-known examples of this is of Dr. Joe Dispenza. And have you shared his story on your podcast?

Oh, man. He he's incredible. But yeah, he, um, so he went through, um, a traumatic experience where in I think this was back in the 80s, he was in a triathlon and he was hit by a car and it crushed some of his spine, you know, went to the hospital and they said, "We're going to need radical surgery, and even then we're not sure about your ability to walk after that." Right? And he said, um, no, that you know whatever created me can heal me, right? And so he did not do the surgery, he declined it, and instead what he did was he attached an intent in intention to an elevated emotion. So he visualized the spine being built one step at a time, and he did it over and over and over, and he attached to that a feeling of gratitude as though it already happened. And I think that's the secret is that can you feel gratitude for something you don't have yet, you know, because you have to convince the body that it already happened. So I believe it was like maybe within 10 weeks, a short period of time, his spine healed, and a couple weeks later he was training again for, you know, his next race. So that is an example of mind over matter. He literally moved matter with his mind, and anyone's able to do this. We create our own reality, just like the Bible verse I I said, you know, like whatever you think will become like you will become whatever you think you can create your own reality, and this is one reason why, um, a big part of healing is your story. It's the story that you tell yourself, and if you're stuck in a story of your past, you know, this happened to me blah blah blah, then you're not going to be able to step into the future. You have to actually be so literally I'm in the moment. I have to be able to step into the future in order to heal myself. So it's a like a future consciousness. And as we said, consciousness is that spark of light, right? Consciousness is the ultimate, um, conductor of the entire body. And so what do you want to manifest, right? You have to bring that into your consciousness. So, when I was really sick, I held an image in my mind of what optimal health looked like, and it was I was in I was at a, um, a park with my family. I was with my two kids. We were having a picnic, and there was butterflies and the grass was green, and I could feel the grass under my feet, and there was a cool breeze, and I was running around chasing my children like we were playing tag. We were playing games, and we were laughing, and I could hear the sound of my children laughing, and we were all filled with joy and gratitude. So that was my image. You have to you have to bring all your senses into creating this future. So you know taste, touch, sound, everything has to be brought into that image. You see it and you feel it and you express gratitude for it, and then you get there. Well, the feeling is the most important part, you know. So, there's a great book. It's called Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, which is Joe Dispenza's book. And, uh, you know, I I did all these things, um, that were part of the book, exactly what you described, and they've been created, um, using the word manifest, but, um, they've been created. They've they've been experienced in my life, right? Um, and I actually I believed like I believe that to be true because I feel it so strongly throughout every cell of my body. Now there's going I come across other people that I work with who are clients of mine and I try to institute similar ideas. What lacks there is the belief. And if you can't get past that belief, like if they believe they're broken, if they believe there's no God, if they believe that there's, um, you know, this it's just like this nihilistic, you know, sense of like lack of meaning in all things, then they continue to create out of that space, you know, and it is the same patterns over and over again, which always leads to illness, emptiness, and essentially death. I think the body does die unless you know there's you're open to that that shift, and I know there's people that are listening to this right now that might be my clients, and they I think they know who I'm talking to, and they often say like well I don't know how to do it, like how to do it, and you know there are steps, but what lacks is like how strongly do you believe and how strongly do you believe that you're actually worth it, like that that you are special and your life has great meaning, and when you take that out and sometimes like people have been horrific survivors of the most tragic traumas, right? And I and I completely understand, and when it's repeated over long periods of time and you know I'm so grateful for your willingness to tell your story because you can understand what that is and what that does to somebody on every level of their being. It's so hard to get from forgi to get to a place of forgiveness and to see yourself in your body, you know, as something of value and meaning and purpose. And that's the that's the work as if I'm going to be an effective clinical psychologist, if I can't work on that level, you're not going to see much of a success, right? So, let me let me ask you some more true or false questions.

Okay. Okay. Because some of this is, I think, very practical. Um, true or false? Do we have the ability to channel in divine messages?

Oh, true. Yeah. How do you do that? So, for me, so first of all, I'm really open. You know, I used to not get all these messages, but now I'm really open. And so, I put I try to kind of silence my ego and come from this space of curiosity like I'm curious. I stay curious, and I try to stay in a state of gratitude and love, and so I I every day my entire family practices gratitude. Um, even at the beginning of a meal, we'll just go around and say three things that we're grateful for and why we're grateful for it, which helps you feel the gratitude right when you attach the why. Um, so we try to cultivate, um, an environment of gratitude, um, which raises the vibrational frequency around me, and I will I will start out by by thanking God. I'll be like, you know, thank you for everything that you've given to me, like I'm ready to learn more. Um, and I'll just start my day like that, you know, like I'm open to whatever it is. And if I stay in that space and I don't like get back on the treadmill, for example, and get bogged down, get my to-do list out, my check, check, check, you know, um, because that closes you off. If you stay in that space of openness and gratitude and calm. So, in other words, I'm in a parasympathetic state. If I stay there, then it's it's so much easier to hear, to get kind of like these downloads, right? to be connected to source or to God, however you see it. As soon as I start getting anxious about things, um, you know, and I start getting my my list, my to-do list out, as soon as I start worrying about like what other people think, I need external validation or I'm comparing myself to somebody else, right? All of that puts me in fight or flight, and then my connection, um, dissolves like I can't I can't really, um, hear anymore like what God's message is for me that day. I have to be in that state of like the parasympathetic. And so for me that's one reason why like right now I'm healthy enough I could go eat at McDonald's and be fine, right? Like but I choose not to. I I still, um, I eat very principally I would say, um, because that's my truth, and I think that when we stand in our truth, whatever your truth may be, you become more connected to source because you feel more whole, right? Um, and so so I maintain a a very clean diet, and it's not that I never eat cookies or anything like that, but I don't go overboard, I make my own, you know, organic cookies and things like that, but I do maintain a clean diet because I have noticed that if I eat a lot of sugar, for example, then I have more of a disconnect from God. So, so for me it's maintaining everything that he taught me. Um, and the and you know he tells you this too in the Bible that like when you're healed you are to turn away from what got you there. You're not to go back to it. And so I I think of this as my way one way in which I show gratitude for the healing is that I'm like, okay, I learned I got it. I'm going to take that forward with me. Not out of fear but out of a place of gratitude. As soon as I get into a fear space, I'm disconnected from him. I have to be in an open space of gratitude in in order to really see hear the message or sometimes I see the message, but you know what I'm saying, to receive a message. I can't be in fear. Yeah. Quick story. Um, how I became awakened. I didn't become awakened from a disease or anything that like you went through. I I became awakened by a number of events that didn't make any sense logically, uh, over and over and over and over again. And then eventually came in contact with someone who was exhibited clear audience and spent spent some time where she was, you know, communicating messages to me from

My deceased father—that only he would know, you know, from events in my life. And then she started explaining to me about my work with clients. And the one day I almost fell off my chair is when she provided me the name of one of my pre—like a past client from like five or six years previous—and telling me that, um, that my guides were attempting to help me to work with various clients, but I was shutting them out. And, um, used an example where I worked with somebody following the messages from God, and I remember I didn't remember the client when she first sang, and then she gave me his name, which she would have had no way not to know this client's name, but it was the only client up to that point that I ever worked with that I sat in silence and prayed for guidance before the session for various reasons, and it was the only time I ever probably did it up to that point. And she said that is your path.

So I started doing that, and I was like I was getting downloaded on messages and things to say to my clients in order to guide them, and I've been doing that ever since, and it's just completely changed my entire experience because, first of all, uh, there's a shift in consciousness before clients; there is a grounding; there is a surrendering to being guided by God; and it's just a profound sense of gratitude that I was put in this position for that person, and I'm no longer thinking. I don't have to think, which is like takes so much anxiety pressure. You move away from fear. And then in that silence and in that listening and in that connecting with the person in front of me, there's a knowing that I'm able to communicate without thinking.

Yes. Oh my goodness. You describe that so well. Again, that's exactly what happens. So, uh, when I'm, you know, when I used to work with clients—I mean, I still work with clients, I just don't do it a lot—but when I used to work with clients, I would get very nervous. You know, I was like, "What if I don't have the answer? What if I can't figure out their puzzle?" Like, you know, impostor syndrome would set in extremely deep, right? And then I started to pray about it beforehand. And it's the same thing I do like before a podcast, before I go on stage and give a big talk; I, um, remind myself, too, that this is not about me. Like this is not about me, right? This is about—what I'm just a messenger—and it's about whatever God wants that audience to hear. I'm just delivering the message. So I pray to him and ask, "Please help me set my ego aside and just tell me the words that you want me to share." You know, and so now with clients, it's exactly like you're saying that I used to get drained with these clients because I was in a space of fear, frantically trying to figure this thing out, you know, and now I just sit with them. I'm in the moment. I'm listening to what they say, and I'll get a download of something, you know.

So, um, here's a quick—Do we have time for me to give you a quick example? So, I've never shared this one before because, you know, you as a scientist, you can be quickly discredited when someone hears something like this. So, I've never actually shared this one until now. Um, so I, um, I had a friend who—she had MS, you know, multiple sclerosis—and she was losing her vision to the point where it's not safe for her to drive anymore. And so she did come to me, and she asked if I could help her, and we changed her diet—her and everything. Um, it changed other markers and her blood work and stuff, but not the vision. And I said to her, "Okay, it's all these symptoms are actually your body telling you that you're out of balance on the emotional level, right? Same thing we've talked about here." And she said, "Okay." Okay. I said, "Well, I think it has to do something with some relationship in your family." And so, just maybe think about it and come back and tell me what you think. You know, think of if there's any toxic relationships that you might have.

That night, I, um, went to bed and could not sleep because I kept hearing a child laughing, and I thought it was my kids like getting out of bed and running down the hallway, right? So, I get out of the bed, and I'm open the door. I'm about ready to tell them go to bed, you know, and there's nobody there. The lights are off. Nobody. And I check. They're in their their room. They're sleeping. So, I go back into the bed, and I'm hearing the sound again. And this time it's laughter, and I'm hearing pitter-patter right next to my bed, and there's nothing there. And now I'm starting to freak out. So, first I hide under the covers, and I was like, "Oh my goodness." Like, "God, please protect me. Like, I don't know what's happening here." And then all of a sudden it was like this, um—he told me that it was okay, everything was okay and to just ask what it wants to tell me. And so I did. I said, "What is it you want to tell me?" And, um, it was a—it ends up it was a little boy, and this is the like the only time this has happened to me. It was a little boy, and he showed me a picture, and it was him. It was at a party, and it was him, and he was looking up at the camera like this, and he was smiling and he was happy, and and I saw him then running around, um, like running around in some kind of environment, and he was totally happy, and by this time it was like 4 in the morning. This has been happening all night long.

So I get up and I email my friend at the risk—you know, she is—she was a Christian—like fundamental Christian—and I—I was like I might lose her as a friend, but the spirit would not leave me alone. So I was like, okay. So I'm—me—I'm emailing her, and I'm like, "Okay, please forgive me if this is overstepping. This may not make any sense whatsoever. I don't know what this means, but this is what happened," you know, "this is what I saw." And I'm describing everything, the rough age, the hair color, the clothes, and whatever. So, and I'm—I send the message, and I'm freaked out thinking I just lost my friend. A couple hours later, she gets up, she texts the messages, she messages me back, and she sends me a picture. It was her nephew who had just died a few months earlier. That was the exact picture. What I saw and described was the exact picture. There's no way I would have ever known that. It was her picture that she had in her own private possession. And she said she had been beating herself up because she didn't go to his birthday party. He lived in another state. She didn't drive over there for the birthday party, which she did every year. She didn't do it that year. And like a month later, he died. He wasn't sick. It was an accident. He just—he died. And she had been beating herself up over it, and she couldn't see. She couldn't stand to see the reality of what had happened—that that this young soul had been taken away—and she felt guilt for not being there for him at those final moments because she couldn't face it. She couldn't like see it. The body mirrored that by actually physically blinding her. Once she saw it and she realized, okay, this is what's happening. And I said to her, this is the message that he is trying to send is that he is okay. He—there's nothing to forgive because he doesn't blame you. He is happy. He is okay. She just burst into tears, you know, like big—a huge release—and she was able to finally forgive herself like that. Her eyesight came back. I mean, amazing. That tells you the power of our emotions as well.

Yes. But yeah, that—I know it kind of sounds crazy, right? Which is why I don't share that story, but—

No, it—it—it doesn't sound crazy to me. And I think what I want to share right now is the role of fear. So I—I, for example—like I'll get like private emails—messages of people like questioning my Christian faith because I have conversations like this, and I—I think probably the largest audience of a podcast I was on was relatable with Ali Beth Stucky, and Alli Beth Stucky is, um, you know, I really respect the work that she did—does—but she's like fundamental Christian; she really knows a lot about Bible verses and has a belief about what they mean. And I don't always see it so rigidly. Um, I—I think there's deeper meanings, um, you know, that are in scripture. I'm on this path of trying to figure it out for myself, but I can't discount my experiences that I've had and and the things that you're describing. So sometimes I'm fearful of speaking out about this, um, fearful of being misunderstood, fearful of being judged, a heretic, um, whatever that may be when I'm just on a journey and with my heart open and my mind open. And so I'm wondering about how you may deal with that same fear.

Yeah, I do. That creeps up for me, um, particularly when I don't know the audience—you know, like now I don't know the audience—but, um, what I see—you know, and I am a Christian—I give full glory to God for healing me and for everything that he has shown me all along this journey, and and he—he never left me; he was always there, um, I just—I just didn't always see it, um, but it is difficult when you have these experiences, and for me they came from God. I mean, that experience really freaked me out, you know, that I had, um, with that spirit. And like I said, that was the one and only time that happened. But it was God that said, you know, just ask what—what the—what it's trying to tell you. And look what he did from that experience. He healed my friend. Like she got her eyesight back. So to me that was God orchestrated that entire event that happened. So his fingerprints are all over that. Um, my healing—it was when I reached out to God, and then he put me on this path. So why would he show me all these things if, you know, if—if I wasn't—He healed me, and that—and that's documented. So, he showed me these things for a reason. And as I've been sharing what I've learned, it's helped a lot of people. Like, they may not also understand it, and they may be somewhat uneasy with it as well, like I was, um, but they've healed from it. And so, for me, I feel like, um, you know, on the emotional level, we say autoimmune disease means to deny yourself. And so this manifests on the physical level. You hear people explain autoimmune as the body attacking itself. I don't like that because that's a fear-based explanation. I think it's the body is actually protecting you. It's doing what it thinks it needs to do to protect you from a perceived toxin. Um, but if you just go along with that—that you know—you—you can see in lab results the body building antibodies to itself, which Western medicine claims is attacking itself. That is equivalent of denying yourself because you no longer recognize self—right—you start losing yourself. And so that's a big thing that he showed me is that—even—is that to really heal ourselves, it is a holistic healing. Uh, meaning there is also that mental—emotional component of loving and accepting yourself for who you are instead of apologizing for yourself or twisting yourself in knots to try to be fitting in with this group or with this group. I was really good at doing that. I used to call myself a chameleon, like because I'm so sensitive to people—what they feel. I could go into a situation, and I'm—I'm this person here or I'm this person in that—in that group of people, you know. Um, and I might change my wording. There's nothing wrong with that. Like you're presenting—I present to Amish communities. I'm going to use different words because I'm respecting their language and their culture, and so I'm trying to get the message to match with their beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that because my message is the same. I stay true to the core message. And so that's a way that I don't deny myself anymore. So when things like this happen, I am selective, right? I have—God gave us all the gift of discernment. And so it doesn't mean—so to not deny yourself doesn't mean you have to then go and share everything about yourself with everybody who comes along, right? It means you can discern and discern who you're sharing what with, and God will help you to discern—like I had no intention of sharing several of these things today that we've talked about. But I prayed about it ahead of time, and as you were speaking, the message was share—like he would put these examples in my head and say, "Share this—this is what needs to be shared now." You know—can I tell you a story? So I fully trust him, and that's when I share.

Yeah. So here—here's a great example of this because we were supposed to have this podcast a number of weeks ago. Yeah. But your kid got sick, and you had to cancel last minute, right? And we rescheduled. And what's interesting is if we had the podcast at that time, I wouldn't have been fully prepared to have the conversation we are having today because a number of the things that we're talking about today have been presented to me in the last—only the last few weeks.

Oh wow. And so I've been like really in the depths of it in the last couple weeks. So I'm much more open to it. In fact, I prepared for your podcast probably like a month ago, and I'm looking, and I have these topics, these questions which I never—I haven't asked in—instead I just sat and listened like I do in therapy and went with what came to me. Um, and the same happened for you, and I think we—This is—I thought this was an amazing episode that my belief is there's people who are listening who need to hear it, and that's the—the gift of what's happening right now. I think there's a raising of consciousness on the planet. Uh, I think there's an awakening. I think there's so many people going through what you and I have gone through and having these type of conversations. And without a doubt, there's people listening right now. And it's—it's hitting them energetically. There's things they're learning. It's opening up doors. It's—it's doing something for them, right? And if we can heal energetically, too, like we talked about, there's something about the conversation that is a shift in consciousness, right? And it's an alignment with what I call Christ consciousness or source or whatever that may be. And it—it is a love, and it—and it is energetic, and I think it's just important to be open to that because I think it's—I—I—I think it's aligned with biblical teachings—like it's there—like it—for someone—they might say this idea of Christ consciousness is not, you know, Christian faith, but that might be a limited way of viewing Jesus's message.

Um, yeah. And so I try not to get, you know, I learned early on in my healing journey how, um, damaging labels can be. And that's why Joel—mine and Joel's book is called *Beyond Labels*, and the podcast is *Beyond Labels* because, um, you know, when I—when I—how I told you for like 20 years I was seeking medical attention, and none of them could actually diagnose me with anything. And then when I found that functional doctor, um, I finally did get a label, you know, I had an advanced stage of rheumatoid arthritis in my 30s. Um, I had leaky gut. I had arsenic poisoning and borderline beriberi and pellagra. So something shifted as soon as he said that I had an advanced stage of rheumatoid arthritis. I fell apart. So keep in mind, I had this—this condition, this imbalance since birth, but really ramped up for, you know, between the age of 20 and 40-some. And I never fell apart, okay? It was just something's going on, and we're going to figure out how to fix it, right? As soon as I got that label, I fell apart because in our culture, these disease labels are death sentences. You don't hear about people healing from them, right? You hear Western medicine—medicine say things like, "Well, we can manage them as best as we can, and maybe sometimes get some of these into remission, but for the most part, we're going to be able to manage these largely with pharmaceuticals." And so, for the rest of my life, I thought, "This is now my identity. I'm going to have this disease forevermore. I got to check this box of autoimmune disease," right? So, I remember hanging up the phone crying. And I called my husband at work, and he almost couldn't hear what I was saying because I was crying so hard. And he was like, "What's wrong?" Like as soon as he established the kids were okay, whatever. I literally was on the phone, and I was like, "I have a disease." And he paused for a minute. He goes, "What did you think you had?" And I was like, "Well, not a disease. Like now it has a full-blown label, right?" And he said to me—this was like the turning point for me in understanding the connection of the psychology to a disease—because he said to me, "Nothing changed between the moment you got that diagnosis to the moment after the diagnosis. Nothing has actually changed for you physically. It's just your mindset has changed." And he said to me, "Release the label. You have to be tougher than that label." And I was like, "Okay." Like, you know, but anyway, that's what I have found too is that the clients that come to me that don't have a label yet, while it's an uncomfortable position to be in because that's what we do in our culture. We're seeking for that label, right? Um, we want that diagnosis, and then we think, "Oh, because as soon as I get the diagnosis, I know what to do about it," but actually as soon as someone gets that label, more often than not it becomes part of their identity, and then it's harder for me to help them to reverse it because of all the things they've heard associated with that disease, but I tell them all of these labels that we give these diseases—these are man-made; these are modern labels—like ancients did not label things like this; they just had imbalances in different areas of the body. And if you—

So, so here's an example. If I'm your friend, let's say we're good friends, and I come to you and I say, "Oh, man. I just got back from the doctor, and he said I have cancer." How do you feel?

I—I feel devastated, scared, right? Yeah. Because that's—No one says the C word. That's the bad word, right? You're going to die most likely. Now, what if you're my same friend, and I come to you and I said, "Oh, man. I just got back from the doctor. He said I have an imbalance." How do you feel?

I feel like motivated to help them get back in balance. Yes. Because the body understands that—the body is all about balance. We're about balance and about rhythm. It doesn't send a shock wave of fear in your body when someone tells you you're imbalanced. It does send a shock wave when you get some of these heavy—a heavy diagnosis, right? And so what I always tell people is we have to shift the mindset. You have to start thinking of this as an imbalance. The body is designed to be in balance. All we have to do is figure out what is taking it out of balance, and it heals itself—like because the body is amazing, you know? So it's simple things like that. So I try not to hold on to any of those labels whatsoever, you know, back to this—the ideology—labels, they don't serve us well. They—they all put us in some kind of boxes instead of allowing us to stay open. Um, so I just say just—just get rid of them. Like, you know, pray about it and just ask God, you know, for the next step in your own life, you know, ask him, "Show—show me the truth." And that's another thing because he shows us what we're ready for. I think he's showing us all the same truth, right? There's like this truth that comes from God, but we're all seeing different steps of it. We're all at different steps—at different levels. So, we're all seeing different parts of it. So, it can look different if my—if I'm on step A.

And you're already on step W, you will probably see your truth as being different than mine because I haven't caught up to you yet, you know? But that's how I see it: he's showing us all pieces of this truth as we're ready to see it. We're all seeing the same thing. We're just at different stages of seeing the same thing.

Well said. This has been such an enlightening discussion.

Uh, where can people find you? Um, how can people connect with you, learn more about your work?

Yeah. So my website is drcinamakulla.com, and from there you can find—um, I have a blog, my podcast is on there, the books are on there. Um, I have a lot of articles that Epoch posts for me as their health columnist, but I put them all on my website, so you can also find them there.

Great. And I'm going to be coming on your podcast. So, uh, there's so many opportunities for further discussion, especially around the labels. For me, it's psychiatric diagnosis as labels, and something that I speak out against, along with the pharmaceuticals and the reductionist model and how that's harming all of us. So, there's so many areas of alignment, but um, Dr. Dr. Cena McCulla, I want to thank you so much.

So grateful for a radically genuine conversation.

Oh, thank you so much. It's my privilege to be here.