Sunni Vs Shia Full Debate | Shaykh Asrar Rashid

Please. Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah, after a much-awaited few weeks and months, finally, we are here tonight for this debate between [Side A] and [Side B]. I'd like to introduce, for the benefit of everybody here and those watching on uh, various social media platforms, um, we have from the [Side A] uh, uh, from the uh, [Side B], we have [Speaker B Name] and we have [Speaker A Name]. And inshallah, we will start, as it has been agreed by both sides, uh, with Sheikh Rashid, with him opening, and he has 20 minutes, inshallah. Uh, but one thing that we would like to categorically and clearly clarify with the onset is that no insult upon any Sahabi will be accepted in any way, shape, or form, inshallah. Uh, courteous, respectful uh, ways of addressing the Sahabah and the Ahlul Bayt will be maintained throughout the debate. Inshallah, the time allocated will be adhered to. If anybody has, nobody from the public uh, can please intervene at any time. The reason that we're here is to intervene when need, if need be. But uh, but we kindly ask everybody uh, who's sitting in the public not to intervene in any way, shape, or form. Um, inshallah, I'd like to request Sheikh Rashid to begin uh, with the opening, inshallah.

Firstly, with regard to this subject of Sahabah, I, I would like to get straight into the subject that when we state, what do we mean? What they mean by that is that just in relating and conveying the Deen, that the Sahabah are upright in this regard. That the way they convey the Deen of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, the Quran, the way they convey al-Quran, the way they convey the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and his teachings, that they, they have in that regard. That is the meaning. Because when we say this is, which is an annexed statement, that's two compositions. The first one is, the second one is. So the definition of is that they have in how they convey the Deen of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. And this is what they state regarding this meaning. This is what they state that other issues, they do not harm the in conveying the Deen of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. The second is the definition of a Sahabi. The definition being the al-mudda'i. The claimment here, my, which is based upon the definition of on a, which is the definition given by he says, isam Islam, that a Sahabi is someone who met the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, accepted Islam, and died on Islam. Just a caveat here, so that there is no vagueness on the definition. If the Sahabi becomes a mutad after the lifetime of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, he would not be deemed a Sahabi, even if he goes back to Islam. Additionally, if he leaves Islam in the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and then becomes a Muslim again in the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, he would be deemed a Sahabi. So this is the definitions of that the is the conveying of the Deen of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. And I have also elucidated the meaning of a Sahabi. When we say that the Sahabah in conveying the Deen of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, this entails that when they convey al-Quran, the Quran has been conveyed to us by this jinn, which is known as. And their narrations, even their narrations, when we investigate their in narrations, their Hadith, that entails that their Hadith is not found out to be a lie against the Messenger of Allah. There are case examples that we can go on to, but my dawa is principally based on Quran. I will start with the Quran, 10 ayat in Quran, which I will clarify and elucidate.

Firstly, in Quran, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, in Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, addressing the in the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, of course, "O you who have believed, whoever becomes a from his Deen, from the Deen of Allah, meaning who, whoever amongst the becomes a mutad, what will happen to that?" Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will bring a nation of people that love Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala loves them, and they love Allah. What is the description of them? These people who are brought against Sahabah who were Sahabah and they become that they are that they humble themselves to the believers, and they, what is that? They are firm towards the disbelievers. This group of people will do jihad in the way of Allah, and they do not fear the blame of any blamer. Meaning, this is the favor of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. He grants it to whomever He wills. Now, this ayat, Quran informs us, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala informs us that the ones who become mutad, they will face a group of people who love Allah, Allah loves them, and they love Allah. They fight jihad in the way of Allah, and they are against the disbelievers. So when, after the passing away of Sam wasallam, those Sahabah, those who claimed to be Sahabah, who became mutad, they were faced with war. Who are they? They are the Bedouins who claimed im, they are the people who followed Kad. So they do not fit our definition of Sahabah. Who fought them? We know who fought them, and Ali was with those who fought them. In fact, Al-Hassan, Hussein, as I will mention later, they were also with those who fought those people. And this is the meaning of those Hadith when they will come to the andas will be informed by the angels that these people, they left the Deen after you. This is from al-Quran. This is from al-Quran Karim, that if any Sahabi became a mutad, he would be disgraced because Allah will bring a people against them that will defeat them.

Then in Quran, in, in ayah number 55, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has promised those who have believed amongst you and they do good actions, He shall make them on the earth. That He shall make them on the, the way He made those prior to them as on the earth. And Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala shall make firm for them their Deen that He is pleased for them, meaning they shall establish the Deen of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. And Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says, continuing that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala shall change after their fear. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala shall give them security. That Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says, and that they will worship Me and they will not commit. That those who disbelieve after that, they will be. So this [clears throat] promise of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is to the Sahabah. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala gave them that promise that they will, those who believe amongst them and do good actions, they shall become on the earth. We believe at that period has passed, that the were given and when conquered various lands as his main mush, his person of consultation, they conquered those lands and they extinguished [snorts] from those lands. So this promise of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has been fulfilled.

Likewise, in, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says in ayah number 105, that "We had written in the that after the says that the earth, that My pious people shall inherit the earth." This inheritance of the earth was fulfilled when the Sahabah, when they conquered, they conquered Philist, they conquered al-Quds, they conquered al-Iraq, al-Iran, all these places, Egypt, all of this was fulfilled. And then those Bedouins who who feigned Islam, they were told in the time, in the time of, in, we find this where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says, "Those who have been, who stayed behind from jihad, from the, from the Bedouins, you shall be called to a people, a nation, people of strength to fight these people." Where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says, "O, these people, you will fight them or and they will become Muslims, or they will become Muslims." Now, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala addressing those says that if you obey Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, will give you good reward. And Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that if you turn away, the way you turned away before, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala shall punish you. What was this? The were called to jihad against the people of Persia. And this happened in the time of when was Khalifa. The Bedouins were called for jihad to do jihad against the Persians and the Romans. And this prophecy of Quran was also fulfilled in the of.

Likewise, when Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that regarding the, this is in, ayah number 10. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says regarding the Sahabah, that "Those who are not equal, those who spent, those before fat of those who spent spent money in the way of Allah and they did jihad, they are what greater in what in ranking, those who spent money and did jihad after the fat of Makkah." So this includes the Sahabah of Hunayn, after the fat of Makkah, those Sahabah who fought in Hunayn, uh, those Sahabah who took part in the Hunayn, all of them are included. And likewise, those before that. But Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says regarding all of them, that all of these, those who spent jihad before and those after, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has promised all of them, which is of course, paradise.

Now, with regard to of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, once Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala promises someone al-Jannah, that promise is not broken. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says in ayah number 108, "Those who We have destined, they are far from the hellfire." So I'll reiterate this point so it settles in the minds of people. The Sahabah who did jihad before fat and the Sahabah who did jihad after fat, all of them were promised the only thing that can violate this is if they leave the Deen of Allah. They have this rank because they saw the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam with im. If they have im, then they have the reward from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, which Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has promised. And in, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is telling us, "Those who are promised this, they are far from the hellfire."

Then likewise, we, where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that those in, which is uh, the ayah number eight. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says, "Those who were poor and they were migrants, those were their homes and their wealth was taken away. What about them? And that they were seeking the of Allah and the pleasure of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, and they help the cause of Allah and His Messenger, they are, they are described as." So those who did, who did hijra from, they are described by Allah as, they are as a group. And then after of Makkah, the Sahabah who have a lesser rank than them, they are described with. Likewise, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says, "We know this ayah, which is in, towards the end, Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam is the Messenger of Allah. Those who are with him, their description is, they are severe against unbelievers and they are merciful amongst themselves. That you observe them, that you observe them bowing and prostrating, that they seek the of Allah, and note the same words as what we used in the, the previous ayah that I quoted. The marks of this are on their heads from the effects of prostration." And then of course, we have, and the description is given to towards the end of the ayah because of lack of time, I will [clears throat] not go through the entire ayah. Likewise, we have in, the ayat in. However, the and those who have believed with him, who did with their wealth and themselves, that they have what? That group of people are described as being, they will be successful. And likewise, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says regarding them, that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has prepared for them gardens of paradise that flow underneath, from which rivers flow. They reside in that. That is what tremendous successfulness. And of course, we have the ayah regarding, which even according to the Shia sources, it it does state in Shia sources, which I will mention later, that it is regarding him as being the, the of the cave, where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that "It does not matter if you do not, for Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, if you do not help him, for indeed Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has helped him, if when the disbelievers they forced him to out of, and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says that he's the second of the two, when the two were in the cave, when he says to, by consensus, do not be grieved, for indeed Allah is with us." That Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is with us. This is different to when Musa Alaihi Salam says, for instance, that "My Lord is with me." These are 10 ayat of Quran that around 10 I have presented. Did. Of course, there's a lack of time, but we will go in further detail as the debate progresses. I hope my interlocutors bring evidences from Quran. Thank you for that with the opening of [laughter] beautiful opening there. From your side, I would like to invite.

>> Yeah, I'll be going first.

>> Okay. So, you've got 20 minutes starting now. Um, can you just let me know when it's 10?

>> Sure.

>> In the. Yes, please.

>> In the, in the name of Allah, the most merciful, the most compassionate. Peace and blessings be upon the Prophet and his holy household. First of all, I would like to thank the interlocutors and their willingness to engage in this discussion. These are very sensitive topics, and the fact that we can address them openly, critically, and respectfully is something that should be appreciated. Our purpose today is not to create hostility or division. We're not here to provoke emotions and score points. Rather, the aim is to clarify doubts and address misconceptions. A productive debate is not built on straw man arguments, but on presenting each position fairly and examining it carefully. For those watching at home, this discussion, this discussion is ultimately for you. There will always be people who praise their own side regardless of what is said and the outcome of this debate. But this is not why we are here. Our goal is not to applause or glorification. Our goal is to examine a theological claim, assess the evidence, and reflect the sincerity on where the truth lies. With that said, it's important to clarify the topic under, under discussion. The question before us today is not whether many of the Prophet's companions, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, were sincere, righteous, or devout believers. This is not what's being denied. Nor is it what is being tested. The issue is the claim, the idea of the collective Adalah of all the companions, and that mere association with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is automatically establishes full uprightness and reliability. Companionship is a historical description. It tells us whom the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. Sorry, can you just pause the clock?

>> No problem.

>> The battery.

>> Companionship is a historical description. It tells us who met the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. Uprightness, however, is not just limited to narrating Hadith and being truthful. It refers to moral integrity and reliability such that a person's testimony and reports are accepted without scrutiny. These two concepts are not the same, and one does not logically entail the other. For example, both Sunni and Shia Hadith sciences recognize that a person may be truthful in speech and yet still be rejected due to innovation or deviation. Another important issue that arises when Hadith are used as foundational proof for this belief is that if those very individuals are under scrutiny, their own reports cannot be used as evidence since it becomes a circular argument. Reliability must be established before reports can be used as proof. This leaves us with the Quran as the primary non-circular source by which universal claims of this kind can be judged. When examined carefully, the Quran does not support the concept of the blanket uprightness of all the companions. All the verses, as you've heard, cited in praise, are revealed concerning particular people, groups, and circumstances, and they are constantly conditional upon faith and obedience. In addition to this, they can be applied to every Muslim today and in the future. All these verses cannot be legitimately universalized to mean that everyone who met the Prophet is automatically upright and truthful. Moral praise does not imply immunity from error, false attribution, innovation, or later deviation. On the other hand, the Quran also contains clear rebuke and correction directed at individuals around the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. History confirms this reality as well. The companions themselves did not view one another as immune from criticism, as shown by the civil wars, internal conflicts, and disputes that took place in the earliest generations. Both Shia and Sunni scholars have evaluated narrators of Hadith throughout the centuries. Narrators have been praised and condemned due to various reasons, including having bad memory, committing evil deeds, and so forth. But when it comes to the companions, they've been given a free pass. If they were to apply these very sciences on the companions, they would fall under this category. This is why the shield has been placed there before them. At this time, it should be made clear that the Shia position is not blanket condemnation on all the companions. Within the Shia Hadith corpus, there are also general praise of companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. However, companionship has never been understood as sanctification or immunity from evaluation, unlike the Sunni concept that does not even allow scrutiny. Imam Sadiq Alaihi Salam was asked if the companions of the Prophet were truthful, in which he replied, "Yes, they are, and those narrations which have contradictory are contradictory, but due to abrogation, just like the verses of the Quran." In fact, Imam Ali, peace and blessings be upon him, further goes into detail about such reports and other [laughter] different types of reports attributed to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. Imam Sadiq Alaihi Salam classified those people who narrated the from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, in four groups. The first group he mentions are the deliberate liars, as you should see on the screen. The second is the sincere but mistaken narrator. The third, the one who transmits abrogated rulings unknowingly. For those.

>> Interrupt for a second. For the benefit of those watching on the social media screen.

>> Pause the clock.

>> Uh, they can't, they can't actually see that. It's too far. Did you read the uh, the citation?

>> The citations would all be presented in the video descriptions with the documents.

>> Could you read it out so for the benefit of those watching?

>> Brother, I'm not going to read the citations.

>> Yeah, please. And can you please guys, just to make it clear?

>> Yeah. Guys, please, just to make it clear when.

>> If you're going to reference, then it's, it's probably better that you read it out.

>> [clears throat]

>> Brother, God bless you.

>> I don't think it's necessary.

>> It's not necessary. This is time.

>> And please, no getting up and interferences, please guys, cuz whether it's on the Shia side or Sunni side, there are people getting up, it's causing interference. There already been one interruption already.

>> So, can you resume the clock?

>> Yeah. So, Imam Sadiq has already categorized four types of narrators from the Prophet. Number one, the deliberate liar, meaning the hypocrites. Number two, the sincere but mistaken narrator. Number three, the one who transmits abrogated rulings unknowingly, like as Imam Sadiq Alaihi Salam mentioned earlier. And number four, the precise narrator who understands the abrogation. Both reports are found in the same chapter in Al-Kafi titled "The Differences in Hadith." Therefore, the Shia methodology simply reflects the reality in this approach to evaluation. We honor the righteous companions, but we categorically reject the claim that every individual labeled as a companion is permanently upright and truthful in what they report. With [clears throat] that said, I'll pass the floor to Brother Fabulous, who will go to the QR understanding of these verses. Um, I will focus briefly on the Quranic evidences that are commonly cited in defense of the doctrine of universal Adalah of the companions of the Prophet. Before examining uh, individual verses. Um, before examining individual verses, it is essential to clarify the method uh, being employed. Our counterparts rely on general Quranic praise to establish a universal and permanent uh, uh, doctrine of moral accreditation. However, the Quran itself does not operate in this manner. There are three principles that must be kept in mind. First, Quranic praise does not automatically imply universality. Unless a verse explicitly states "all without exception," which is non-existent. Praise remains descriptive, not absolute. So, second, Quranic praise does not necessarily imply permanence. Allah frequently praises believers for specific acts or periods while simultaneously warning that later deviation remains possible. Third, Quranic praise does not exempt individuals or groups from evaluation. Nowhere does the Quran declare that those who are praised at one time are immune from later scrutiny or accountability. With these principles in mind, I will try now uh, cite the verses most commonly um, relied upon by our counterparts and address them at face value at this point without polemics or historical uh, expansion uh, right now. So I will rely on these uh, on the translation of Dr. Dr. Muhammad Ali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. It's doesn't mean that I approve the translations, just in for the case of uh, uh, remaining consistent because there's a lot of descriptive in brackets and so on uh, description for the verse of Quran. So, one of the uh, favorite verses which is uh, cited is this verse uh, in there, verse um, 8 of Hashr, that we already also uh, saw that our counterpart also recited the exact same verse. So, um, the first thing is that this phrase is about a defined category. So, poor immigrants who were expelled from Mecca. That's the first uh, uh, uh, c, the f, the first uh, sign that shows it's talking about a defined category of the companions of the Prophet. And the, the main argument as we already also heard was that the end of the verse says, and the Quran itself also defines what is meant by truthful in this manner.

>> Sorry, brother.

>> 10 minutes.

>> As as you requested. Okay. 10 minutes left.

>> Yeah. Um, so Quran itself defines what kind of s is referred to in such verses, and we will, when we come to the uh, detailed discussion about these verses, we will cite those verses as well. The other thing is that the um, next verse talks about Ansars, praises and as well for a specific, of course, u, u, inner states, not just uh, for for the sake of being uh, and the next, the verse after that includes the later believers, similarly, which applies even to our generation when we follow those um, same steps in the cause of Allah, of course. And the same thing also mentions that here believers are, or, or this specific group of believers are mentioned as. Quran itself accepts the hypocrites. The very first verse, Allah says that are liars. So, and these were also among the companions of the Prophet, living in his neighborhood, living in in Medina. Um, the other thing is that some might say, well, among the Mahajireen, there were no hypocrites. But we have verses, Meccan verses, Surahs that mention hypocrites, hypocrite groups that, and that's not one, two, three, there are multiple examples that we can discuss. But let's just, for the sake of it, apply this one verse or match this verse with the character of Abu Bakr. Because when we talk about Muhajir, the first thing that comes into the mind of our counterparts is, of course, Abu Bakr. Does this words, can this words apply to Abu Bakr? The first thing that the verse mentions is poor immigrants. Was Abu Bakr poor, according to our counterparts? No. Abu Bakr was among the rich in Mecca. He was not a poor person, a poor companion. The, the second thing mentions that they were expelled. Was Abu Bakr expelled? No. Why? Because Bukhari tells us that Abu Bakr was under the protection of a head, one of the heads of the Mushrikin in Mecca. So he had no trouble living in Mecca while being Muslim. He was under protection. So he was not expelled, and later he migrated by his own will to Medina. So there is no, this criteria does not also apply to him. The other thing is that they were expelled from their homes, the verse mentions, and from their wealth. Two distinctive uh, traits that are mentioned for these companions. Was Abu Bakr expelled from Mecca for his from wealth? No. Authentic Sunni Hadith, as as we will see, tells us that Abu Bakr took all his money by himself. The report says five or 6,000 dirhams that he had, he took all of it and took them to Medina with himself. So this one example shows you that such verses, there is always exceptions. It cannot be used as an umbrella, as a blanket evidence to cover all the companions of the Prophet. If the, if it cannot apply even to Abu Bakr, then you should judge the rest of them alike. So always look at what the first says and then make assumptions. One of the next favorite verses which is used is, of course, this verse uh, uh, 29 of Fat, where Allah says that um, "Muhammad is the Allah, and those who are with him, are merciful among themselves and harsh or harsh against disbelievers and merciful about the, among themselves." So this is a verse that talks or describes an ideal that should be followed. It's not describing an existing state. It describes that those of the companions of the Prophet who has the, who have these traits, they should be taken as role models. Not everybody. All the rest who are not following this path among the companions of the Prophet should take these people with these traits as their role models to follow and to fight and to support uh, the cause of Islam. So the second thing is that this only applies to a specific group because it mentions specific traits. The verse praises behavior, uh, uh, qualities. It's uh, so, so the uh, condition is uh, on the behavior of the uh, companions of the Prophet. This, the other thing is that another exception that we need to always in such verses look into. For example, the verse says, "those who are with the Prophet physically being with the Prophet does not apply." Why? Because we have Quran. Other verses, as we have here, 33:60 and Surah verse 101, where Allah mentions that or hypocrites were living in Medina, in the neighborhood of the Prophet. So physical being with the Prophet in his neighborhood does not apply as well. So this is another exception. So literal translation is always wrong, and you need to always look at the traits and apply other verses as well. So such verses, it's talking about action-based reward, which is guaranteed only with continuous righteous deeds. And if we do a reality check, right, for the understanding of our counterparts, prophetic narrations and actual history shows that these traits like being merciful among themselves, does it apply? No. They fought each other. They killed each other. The Prophet prophesied, commanded them to don't do that, don't turn disbelievers killing each other. And the Prophet also prophesied that this will definitely happen. And other verses like the one of the favorite verses, which is Surah Al-Fat verse 18, that is also often used. These all verses, we can go into details uh, at least for some of them, just to give you an idea that this kind of blanket argumentation does not apply. There is always conditions and there is always uh, u, traits that are uh, praised.

>> Brothers, you have 1 minute 45.

>> Yes. Uh, so before I, because the verses are too many, uh, before that, let me just um, present something. else's as well. And that is, let me see if I can find that, just to give you an idea. So I will be quick because the time is running out. These are some examples of hypocrites who are mentioned in the Quran. Hypocrites who were hidden, Muslims who were hidden among the the comp, the the companions of the Prophet, and Quran exposes these with different traits. I have listed like more than 20 different descriptions that Quran gives gives them. The excuse makers, the mockers, the greedy critics, the subversives, the Bedouin hardliners, the deceivers, the so-called reformers, the intellectual arrogance, the two-faced, the legal averters, the showoffs, the eloquent liars, the elitists, the panic spreaders, the treacherous allies, the fearful strategists, the malicious whisperers, the fairweather believers, the cynical skeptics, the philosophical stingy, the nominal claimants. And there are other verses like 8 that that I, I at least um, have seen where Allah explicitly denies that these people have any faith. So with that, I will conclude my, our interview.

>> Yeah, that's fine.

>> Okay, that's fine. Time's up. Now we're going to move on to the next round.

>> Have you got microphone like this?

>> It should be one like this as well.

>> Yeah, that's fine. So [clears throat] it's you. So now we've got a series of 10 rebuttal rounds, 7 minutes each, as per the conditions. Um, Shia side says will go first. So when you're ready, say we'll commence the uh, rebuttal rounds. It's seven minutes first, then Sheikh.

>> Yes.

>> You have seven minutes for the first round and 7 minutes rebuttal round starting now.

>> Thank you very much. So the Sheikh presented 10 verses uh, essentially which I've got here. So I'll try to uh, address them as as quick as possible. So one of the verses he cited was from Surah Dba, uh, verse number 40 to, yeah, Surah Surah Dba, verse number 40. "If you do not help him," meaning who's the him here? The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. "Then Allah will certainly help him," meaning the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, "as did when those disbelievers drove him out." Who drove who out? The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and he was one of the two who was the second. We don't deny that he was Abu Bakr, according to some traditions. And when they both were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Grieve not, for Allah is surely with us." That Allah sent down His peace and assurance on who? Both of them? No, on him, meaning the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. That's the, the verse speaks for itself. 9:40, brothers and sisters, does not demonstrate the collective Adalah of all the companions. So first and foremost, let's go to having a look at what the definition is um, of of a companion, which is very important. So if you have a look on the screen, brothers and sisters, if you can bring up um, the definition of a companion according to the scholars. So first and foremost, uh, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Kathir mentions the following. It will be brought up on the screen.

>> Yeah.

>> He says, "Knowing the companion." So this is the definition of the companions according to the Sunnah. Very important. I want you to focus here, brothers and sisters. A Sahabi is anyone, anyone who saw the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, while the narrator, meaning the person in question, was in the state of Islam. And remember, even hypocrites can pose as Muslims.

>> Just pause for one second. I'll pause the time there. You're going to get your seven minutes. I want to reference you. You you're quoting references, but you're not reciting. You're not telling what the reference is word for word. No, you're giving.

>> Brother, respectfully, this is the second time you interrupted me, brother.

>> Stop the time. But.

>> Brother, this is this is the second time. Reference it word for word. Wait one second. Directly to the question to uh, the brother that you.

>> No, you're not a moderator. So you're not your moderator.

>> You're not allowed to speak. No, you're not the moderator. You're not a moderator. You're not a moderator. You're asking your moderator. The moderator speak your moderator. Let the moderator allowed to interrupt.

>> Okay, brother. One second. One second, please. Brother, this is the third time you interrupted me. Everyone's witnessing. First entitled to interrupted while I was speaking. You interrupt. Second time you interrupted on the screen, brother, listen to me. The references, the references are there. You read the Arabic, brother, listen to me. The Sheikh didn't read the entire verse himself. He highlighted. Okay, guys. This debate is not happening. This is going to keep in trouble. Everyone's a witness. My speaker is a moderator. Yes. Okay. So, first of all, I don't believe it's the job of the moderators to intervene with the interlocutors. If Sheikh wants to respectfully call out say, Delhi's lack of recitation of Arabic, he will call out when it's his turn when he comes.

>> By the way, the condition of the debate right now, we are part of the part of the agreement. Was part of the agreement was if the.

>> Which condition number, brother? If the.

>> Which condition number?

>> Okay. Yeah, please. It categorically states if the moderator feels that you're going off topic or you're not topic, then brother, you need to read the conditions, the core of the topic. Why not reading it so people.

>> The cited 10 verses which he didn't recite.

>> He didn't read all the verses. He didn't read. He picked up particular words from the verses.

>> Recited all of the verses. Everyone to witness.

>> He recited all of the verses. Might not be the first. I'm going. Sit down, please. Kindly, if I ask you to sit down because.

>> No, you're not the moderator. Please kindly sit down. Please sit down. We're trying to.

>> No. Your point has been made and I'll pick up on it. Can we carry on? Because uh.

>> Carry on.

>> Carry on. Carry on with the debate. Ignore the point. Carry on.

>> Resume the debate, please. Any issue this?

>> There won't be any more interruptions. This is the third settle.

>> Brother, are you going to interrupt me in this debate?

>> When you're ready.

>> Brother, respectfully, are you going to interrupt me in this debate again?

>> No, not now. But if if I need.

>> Okay. So, you're going to get up in a minute, start coughing.

>> Carry on. Just.

>> Okay. No problem.

>> There will be no interruptions. Any issues? Just very bad.

>> Very bad. Brothers and sisters, all the verses can be seen clearly on the screen. Okay. All the sources have been cited there for reason for you to go back and check. If there's anything that's misrepresented, you're welcome to correct that. That's not a problem. My, my, my flow keeps getting interrupted. My introduction.

>> Okay. Resume uh, inshallah. Any issues, you just bring them to me.

>> Okay. How many minutes have I got on my clock?

>> Uh, 5 minutes.

>> Got 5 minutes. Yeah.

>> So, Ibn Kathir mentioned the definition of a Sahabi. You say the Sahabi is anyone who saw the Messenger of God while the narrator, person in question, was in the state of Islam, even if the companionship did not last long. So, even if the pro, that someone saw the Prophet for a few seconds, he's a companion, and even if they did not narrate anything from him. So, it's even a condition that it's not necessary that that companion has to narrate from the Prophet. And this is the view of the majority of scholars, both from the later generations and the predecessors. Those who explicitly stated that make citing a sufficient included scholars like Al-Bukhari, Abu Zur'ah, and many others. Let's go to the next citation. So now we'll come to another definition of a companion. This is mentioned in Sahih Muslim, volume number seven, and it includes hypocrites under the definition of a companion. And this Hadith is mentioned in 17035. And this is a very interesting Hadith because this is during the battle in which Imam Ali was fighting against his opponents against Mu'awiyah. So, Abu Bakr asked, "What's your reason as to why you, why you took the side of Ali?" "Was it your opinion, or was it something you heard from the Messenger of God?" He said, "The Messenger of Allah did not enjoin upon us something that he did not enjoin upon all the people." So, Hudhayfah, the companion, Hudhayfah, remember this word, this name, Hudhayfah, very important. He told me that the Prophet said, "Among my companions, there are 12 hypocrites." Among his companions, among the companions, there are 12 hypocrites. The Prophet is saying this. He's saying that among my companions are 12 hypocrites. Let's go to the next source. Sahih Bukhari, volume 4, Hadith number 3518. This is another lengthy narration in which it's direct from Jabir Abdullah, in which in this Hadith, you can see in the highlighted part, Abdullah ibn Ubayy, who was known as the chief of the hypocrites, "The Muhajireen have have called and gathered against us. So when we return to Al-Medina, surely the more honorable," meaning the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon his family, "people will expel their, will expel their from the Medina." Upon that, Umar said, "Listen to this, O Allah's Apostle, shall we not to this? O Allah's Apostle, shall we not cut this evil person, Abdullah ibn Ubayy?" Meaning, "Shall we remove his?" The Prophet said, "No, lest people will say that Muhammad kills his companions." So here we got the chief of hypocrites being called a companion. Another evidence of the definition of Sahabi, Kharijite, Bukhari called a Sahabi. This is mentioned Sahih Bukhari, volume number three, and this Hadith is a lengthy narration. If you pay close attention to the chapter name, it mentions the Kharijites and the attributes. So in this rather lengthy narration, if you come down to the bottom part, a man [clears throat] during the battle of was questioning the, the decision, how the Prophet was giving out the booty of war. Okay, so in regards to this, Umar said, "Shall I let me read the translation. Umar, Umar said, 'O Messenger of God, let me unal live this hypocrite.' He said, 'Allah forbid that the people should say that I unal live my companions.'" So we've got hypocrites included in the definition of companions. We've got Kharijites included under the definition of companions. We've got hypocrites included in the definition of companions. Let's come to another Hadith. This is Sahih Bukhari, volume number eight. And this is showing us that even under the definition of a companion is what? Let's have a look. Hadith number 6585, narrated by Abu Hurayrah, that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "On the Day of Resurrection, a group of my followers who, the followers of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, will come to me at the Pool, and they'll be driven away." The Prophet would, the Prophet would say, "These are my companions." Look, the Prophet would say, "These are my companions." So these people are not known to the Prophet. They can't be, they can't be hypocrites. They're not known to the Prophet. The Prophet doesn't know who, who they are. What? Look, it says, "It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to But they innovated after you left. They turned apostates as renegades.'" Let's go with another Hadith. This next Hadith is very interesting. There's a mention in by mentions that was asked by somebody, "Are you a companion of the Prophet?" Listen to his response. He goes, "I don't know. He goes, 'The companions of the Prophet are those who are in Jannah with him.'" So what do we know? Very quickly, a companion can include somebody who will.

>> Take the next point.

>> Seven minutes.

>> Firstly, all the ayat I recited, I recited most of them completely with the exception. Uh, what I mentioned in the first ayat, Quran was regarding that anyone who becomes a mutad from the Sahaba, the the outcome is that they are destroyed. All the citations you've given, firstly, I would like to make it very clear, our is that exposed all the they were known in his time, that is something that is a part of our when someone is exposed by the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, there was no doubt left with regard to the also the Bedouins who who left and became mutad, it is very clear who they were in the Khilaf. So we will just with regard to that first ayat which I gave citation to, in, which mentions that was a very clear definition of what happens to those people who leave the fold of Islam. Secondly, the Hadith, the last one of the last ones you cited, which was regarding, that's regarding those who became mutad, uh, after the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, when the people came, that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala brought a group of people, those were the people who defeated them. Now, with regard to for instance, in the book Al-Kafi, this book by Mu, who we know passed away in 412. What is mentioned regarding the Shia position that what, what the narrator states? I will remove the chain of narration, but he had written that "I heard that the people became," this is according to Shia sources, "all of them became except three." Who were they? Three are mentioned. And then what is mentioned in the, it states that 40 men came to Ali that "We won't obey anyone except you." Then what happened? Told them to come down the next day. They, "Will you do this?" They said, "The next day, he said, 'Come to me tomorrow, shaving your heads.'" Except those three, no one else came. came after. Struck his hand on his chest that "What is it with you that you do not wake up from? I have no need of you," says to you, "Do not obey me in shaving the head, will you obey in fighting those who are mountains of iron?" This is what Ali supposedly said to. And of course, we do not believe that. But we know in what is mentioned is that the Sahabah, according to infi, became, what is mentioned here, that that no im left was left in them, meaning they all became. Now, an addition, an additional, I'll give you an additional example of this of in, um, uh, in Al-Kafi, what is also mentioned with regard to the s of the Sahabah is that uh, this actual quote is from also this following quote is from. He, "All of them became except three." Whom? Meaning only these three. They said, "What?" So they say that this at the bottom, what they refer to, this is, he became deviant and then he came back. This is according to Al-Kafi in Al-Kafi, which we Sunnis do not accept that regarding. Similarly, what is mentioned that, they asked, "This following quote is also from that they asked, 'Inform us regarding the companions of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam.' He said, 'They asked, did they speak the truth regarding su, or did they lie?' They all told the truth. Then why did they differ?' [clears throat] A person would come to the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, he would ask regarding, he would give him an answer, something that would abrogate. So he said, 'The Sahabah would.' But are they three Sahabah here, or how many of these Sahabah? What is the Sahabah? This is something the Shia can never do because in the Sunni collections, like in, in, they are all registered, all the names, they are known, who which they are known, who which narrated what. As for your additional quote from Ibn presented regarding and regarding Sahab, I presented my definition of Sahabi. I've presented my definition of, and you can never do, you can never do of that definition which I have presented. Before we actually, before we continue, just a reminder, as per the conditions of the debate, the moderator can interrupt, but it can't be during, during the rebuttal. You can interrupt afterwards, and also as per the condition of the debate, translating material into English is acceptable. There's no condition as for the debate that things have to be recited in Arabic. Just for clarification. Inshallah, I say that your time starts now. Seven. Just, just before you start the time, uh, I just want to add to that. It would be nice if you could recite the Arabic so that at least it references and gives it, you know, if you recite, if you're referencing in the cathe and whatever is recited or whatever is whatever is written in Arabic, if you recite it, at least people watching, not here, not in this hall, but people watching on social media, they can't see the screen, so it may, it may at least easier for them to understand.

>> So a lot of people only understand that.

>> We cannot fulfill, of course, every wish, right? The time is compact. If we want to remain uh, realistic, we have to uh, discuss about the main points, right? If we, if the, the counterparts have an objection to our understanding or to translation, then they can object, that's no problem. But every, can I fulfill everything?

>> Your time starts now. This will start now.

>> Okay. So, first and foremost, the definition of a Sahabi. If somebody apostates, he no longer, he is no longer considered a companion. He no longer, he is no longer considered a companion. This is not correct. Ibn Kathir says the correct opinion on this issue is that even if he apostates and becomes a Muslim again, he's still considered to be a present.

>> Sure. Pause the clock. I said that.

>> Yeah.

>> Can we look the definition?

>> Yeah. Just give me one second.

>> In the lifetime of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam.

>> After. So after the lifetime of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.

>> If they become and Muslim. Yes. To find okay. Make past that.

>> Okay, let's try to get this. I think.

>> Just give me a few minutes.

>> Charge this. Get this charged. Is there a plug there? Just.

>> Yeah. Put it on charge. Put the joint. You send me.

>> [clears throat]

>> Just one second.

>> You have it. Second.

>> [snorts]

>> I'm going to say that.

>> We need to keep the momentum going. So, if we can please hurry up and get this one.

>> Yeah. The Sheikh needs the Sheikh needs.

A source. So, to get the sauce.

[clears throat] Send me this one. Yeah, I can.

Okay. See the reference. There you go. In fact, um, Iban Scalani even gives a citation and and his example as well.

Um, did you send me? Yeah. If you click that.

If you bring this up on the screen and then you. And the internet is very.

Slow. Yeah. The scans.

So, what book is it? The brother's going to bring it up on the screen. The internet's a bit slow.

To be very fair, we can't spend 20 minutes just looking for a reference. Just name the book to me and I, I'll know myself. But it doesn't show because this.

What book did you read that from? Just give me a second.

If you give me the book name, I'll know. Your phone, I can, I can, uh, see if.

Okay. Because on your phone is also not loading right there. Yeah.

Text is there but. Hold on one second. The citation is mentioned here. Can you mute me on the live? You got the reference so we can just show it to the sh easier.

No, no, no. We've got the. So that I can share on the screen. You can just, you got it on here. I can just show it to the shape with your phone then. Yeah, it's fine. It's easy name on there.

Yeah, that's fine. That's easy. There you are. Yeah, scroll right. Uh, you'll see, you'll see it. Rather than waiting for it.

You can actually have the book, the PDF. No PDF we have there is not building because the internet is all. Okay. Uh, where, where is the actual part you mention? If you show me?

So I'll read it. No. Um, so, so he's, he's saying the opposite to what you're saying.

Okay. So what you're, what you've just quoted is wrong.

It's not loading. This not. Wait, wait, go keep going forward.

No, no, no. This is. Look, I'll read. If I, I, I'll read it for you. Okay. He says.

It's not loading. This is just the screen. The. Okay. It says, right? Guess I know. I'll read, I'll read out whatn says meaningb's own that the sahabi must die in Islam is a third subcategory. It takes out whoever becomes a whoever met him after being a and he dies. Yes.

Which and? Yes. Continue. Yes. This part. Yes. This is. Okay. Different. He's giving the but he's not. It's prefer. Wait, let me finish. Yes. Yes. Thank you. No, I haven't finished. Okay. No problem. Continue. Yes. Okay.

What's on the next page? Uh, you can continue. I can bring the whole page up. But it's there. The, the, the. Yeah. The actual scan.

Yeah. Is not loading. It's just. He says for me. So. Yeah. This is the. I think it enough was no. I need to clarity. The point was was proven that brother did not right. But this is why uh he's right about he should read from the original. So there's no problem. There's no. This one was not in this document.

Yeah, it's not in this document. Yeah.

6 minutes. This is I remember from before. But anyway, how much, how long ago?

6 minutes. Okay.

Um, the next point, the respective sheh mentioned, she, he said that the hypocrites were known to the prophet. But clearly in the hadith found the prophet becomes surprised. He becomes surprised. He calls them his companions and then he becomes surprised because they'll be driven away towards the fire and then it will be said, you do not know what they did after you. So these are not the hypocrites that were known to the prophet. Now, as for the claim about mass apostasy, inshallah, we'll in later on the rebuttals, we'll get to the idea of mass apostasy. But if you bring up the PDF quickly, uh, if you don't mind, the mass apostasy.

Which reference do you want to? Mas apostasy.

Yeah. These are the. So firstly, addresses this in his book. He says very clearly, as you can see in this, he talks. There's a whole discussion in his book. He mentioned The people knew and after a period, the truth was with Ali, so they returned. And the, the is not kufur of Islu of Islam, it's of im. So the apostasy, inshallah, we'll go into more details in that.

Later. Repentance possibility. Yes.

Now, as, as for the case of, um, some other points, the mentioned abrogation hadith, which I addressed in the beginning. Imam talks about abrogation. Yes, these are different people from the prophet, peace and blessings be upon. We didn't claim that every person from the prophet is truthful. You can have different types of people. So the narration you present from Algafi is about aggregation. I already dealt with that in the introduction. And as for the number of Sahabah, there's even difference opinion amongst your own scholars about how many companions there are. Some say 114,000. And we have a narration in the book Alasal under the chapter 12,000 that there were 12,000 companions of the prophet and and they were praised. They were praised. Inshallah, we can present you those sources as well.

Now, in, in terms of the definition of, let's quickly go over this. Kibbdi will bring up on the screen. He says he quotes the following. He says Bakalani says, therefore, it must be said that an upright person. What does it mean to be ardan? An upright person is he who is known for performing his obligatory duties. So remember, is not just about naring hadith from the prophet. It's an intrinsic characteristic, a quality of somebody. What does it mean to be upright? He continues and he says, and avoiding, um, the bad deeds and nullifying any anything that nullifies integrity. He is one who seeks the the truth and duty in his actions and dealings and guards his speech against that which tarnishes the religion of chavelary. So this is about, he talks about the definition of what it means to be ardent. Now, this is very interesting. The last part. Whoever maintains this state is described as an upright in his religion and known for truthfulness.

You quote from whom? Um, Bakalani. Alam Bakalani is quoted in his book by Alibadi. Yes.

And he says, "Whoever maintains the state is described as upright in his religion and known for truthfulness in his speech. It's not sufficient for him merely to avoid major sins to be an upright person. He must even avoid small little minor issues." Okay. And then he says, this is, this is something very interesting. He says that, um, on the next page, if you continue on the next, uh, page, Khadiva Bdi mentions something else. He goes, "Our view is that a report or testimony should not be rejected except due to a sin that's agreed upon as a ground for rejection or something that leads to a judge or a scholar to strongly believe that the perpetrator lacks integrity and cannot be trusted to lie."

This is disregarding Sahaba. This is the definition of Adala. This is the definition of a Sabah. Okay. Adala. Sorry. Apology. Adala. Thank you very much. This is the definition of Sahaba. So what did Baklani say? If you continue to next page, let's have a look at summary. He says, a person commits acts for which they could be criticized publicly or considered morally defective privately. Their testimony reports must be rejected. This applies even if this act is is not a major sin. He further states that accepting narration from sinners on the excuse that Allah forgives sins would collapse the entire science of narrator's criticism. Al Kadib Baghdadi says, al-Kibba says the following invalidate Adala: minor sins, dishonorable conduct, lying, accepting bribes, cheating, and rating worldly gains. In shikar, can tell us if any of the sahaba did any of those things and whether they would fall out of the Sunni definition and if not, why not? So let's go to a Sunni principle of contradiction of the uni un universal affirmative. The sheh is an Ashari. So inshallah, we're going to get into this as well. The basic rule of logic, a universal claim, meaning all, is disproved by a single valid exception. Listen, a universal claim is disproved by a single valid exception. Meaning, if someone claims all X are Y, and even if one X is not Y, then the claim all is false. So meaning the claim being all the companions are upright, and the test, even if I show one companion today, it collapses the entire system itself. And this principle is mentioned by Fakudin Razi in his book. We go to the next page. He mentions the following. The contradiction and the universal affirmative.

Can I just ask whose translations are these? Are they your own? If you just pause the clock to shing your the translation.

We can, we can show you the Arabic text and you can say if, if what we have as translation is correct or not. Pause the clock.

Yeah. Let me just put this one. Yeah. This is the. Because why I'm asking this is because these books will have and as you know. Yeah.

So I'm asking, did you guys translate this? This is translation. Yes. Okay. Go on. Carry on.

Just before you continue, it does state clearly that every evidence that is put before the panel must be clearly visible who the translator is. Sure. The translation and the Arabic. And you've actually failed on noition. [laughter] This book just recited books which have no translations. Just rec up. Just just some. After you got one, just read some Arabic text without any translation. Everyone's watching. It's okay. Everyone's watching. It's okay. Everyone's watching. Everyone witness to sisters. So anyway, what am I showing? I'm showing that even if I falsify one person, the entire claim of ad sahaba collapses. And this is a principle even the sh believe in that. Meaning that if I prove one example of a negative, it destroys the whole claim of someone being upright. Um, the whole concept of universal. So what happens in the Quran? We find. So what happens in the Quran? We find the surah, surah, verse number six. Oh, you who believe, if a wrongdoer comes to you with any news, verify it, least you should harm people in ignorance. Regarding this verse, Abu Bakr Jas mentions in his book.

Is a famous bring. Let's have a look. Yeah. He mentions, as for the claim that the companion, sahabi. No, it's in book. In his book, als. Yep. As for the claim that the companion only narrates from another companion like himself, then all of them are acceptable in a narration. This is not the case. This is because during the era of the prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, there was those who Allah himself judged as being a far, as seen in the saying, exalted. If even though it comes to you with news, verify it. And this was revealed by this great giant. The great giant who Abu Bakr. And this hadith is also the Ahmed volume number 14. And he also cites the same tradition. And this hadith has been deemed sahi by Ahmed Shakah. Ahmed.

Ahmed Shakar. Ahmed Shakar. Yes. The narations there will be presented on the screen. Not publications from him, but authentication is from Ahmed Z.

So what have I proven? I've proven according to the holy Quran itself. Um, and let's continue. How many seconds I've got?

5 seconds. 5 seconds. Okay, no problem. So, yeah, so Adal is is a criterion that must be established, not assumed by Sunni definitions. Dishonorable contact, line, or defective in bandal. Thank you.

Okay, with regard to the point you mentioned requires what? Yes. Yes. So I'll start again. Yeah. Requires to do it. Yes. In the dawa, I based upon Quran. What you've gone and done is presented of whose positions are rejected by, for instance, his position on the of he takes the positions he doesn't take positions. Meaning it's not a from me against me. Secondly, also will only apply if The assass is the same. The assass cannot be the same because Quran is it the same as it is for the Sunni. So what I wanted to bring up is, as you will know, in Quran, what they state in the sixth regarding belief in Quran, meaning, do you even believe the Quran is complete? This is something what I would, uh, want from you with regard to the, the hook, the judgment of the one who believed the Quran is tampered. So here I have the, uh, the quotation regard in gone wet here because of the water here. He states here, "As for the belief of our, meaning the Shia, the out is what? Islam, who they refer to as the trustworthy of Islam. Whoan that he would believe that the Quran is he narrated those things in objection is part of the.

Objection. For. Uh, for off topic.

No, it's not off topic. The. Quran is off topic.

No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm going to. I'm going to link it to the Quran. It has nothing to do with our. Fine. That's fine.

I'm coming back to it because this is to do with because the Quran reached us through the as a whole. Because let me reclarify for you. My dua is based upon the Sahab as a they conveyed. So he states regarding that he believed in Quran, he narrated such things in this, meaning in his book, he didn't touch upon in criticizing that he mentioned in the first book that he believed in whatever is in that. Likewise, teacher Ibrahim, he believed also regarding his all of that. He also believed in that. As we know, they believed in Quran. If they believed in Quran, these ayatan, this is why you must do. Firstly, from Quran, it presented 10 ayat. They were not. All those points were not answered with regard to what did the ims? They even took from like for instance, what is mentioned in, what is mentioned in, really, what is mentioned that he was with, he was one day with Hussein. He reads out aith and then he says, you heard this from? He said, yes. Then he sets, he acts upon the rebu. After this, also was this, this source from kashma that you mentioned? Mentioned. Can you give the chain for this narration, please?

Yeah, I'll give you the, the copy. The. No, the reason being is because kashum, the author says at the beginning of the book that I include both Shia and Sunni citation.

So that's fine. Yeah. So I just want to. I'll give you the. I'll give you but after.

Change. I. After I mention, I'll give you the. That's fine. You can answer that in your turn. You can answer that in your turn. In your turn, you can mention that. And likewise. [clears throat]

He says, a group of people came from that they said things regarding the three Abu Bakr. Which the ayah which was reading regarding. This ayah was recited by. He had this. But if you do not accept that from, we will go back. Uh, to the more reliable sources which are with the Shia. For instance, we find in, we find under what he mentions that there's a chain of narration. Here, it's it states that a woman came to one of the ims and a woman came in whose name was she said. So the story is quite longd. So he talks to one of the people who's with him and then he says to he advises the woman, give to whom? To the meaning. The woman said, when I meet my lord, I will say, You ordered me to do the. He said, yes. This person is commanding me to do. So time is finished now. Okay.

Just, uh, just before we go to the next round, just as a reminder, as per the conditions of the debate, any narrations that you provide from the Shia side, you, you have to provide a authentication from a recognized say your time starts now. And similarly, they would have to provide authentic. So, you know, the narration that he presented, uh, you presented from where the authentication from Musman and who authenticated? Yeah. Ahmed. Ahmed.

Are you both in agreement with that? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Have you got president? So, uh, let me just, um, we discussed some of the verses at the in the intro and, um, but before that, let's, uh, mention some of some of the points which were made. As we said, also said in the beginning, in his intro, he says that he is narrating these most of these narrations from the books of from the books of. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that he doesn't mention chains. So all of his narrations that he takes are m salat. Uh, at times he mentions the the author or the book that he is reciting from. And most of his narrations, he doesn't mention any change. He just mentions narrated from this and this im or or from this companion, such and such. This narration that that quoted about this verse that we are talking about, he narrates it. This is actually a Sunni narration. If you go and look into the, uh, um, Sunni books, you find this narration in, in, you find it in and more. So these narrations are not upon us. The other thing is that, uh, the other thing is that, uh, there were some point, some points about we can have a completely separate debate about, but this is completely off topic. It doesn't have, uh, anything to do with our topic. The, uh, point that was made, if we don't accept Quran, if we don't accept the companions, then we have to reject Quran as well. The first thing is that the question is, is Quran or not? If Quran is mutawat, then it doesn't matter who has narrated it. It's you don't have to look into each one of those narrators who have narrated the Quran.

Even if they cover. Yes. After their own definition. So that's off topic. The other narration was about from Abu Bas that he, the im said to him, a woman also off topic because it's about also off topic because it's about. This has nothing to do with, uh, with our topic. Um, also this hadith is, we have, we have made a long video about this, uh, with the detail on our channel. Everybody who wants to watch it, then, uh, you can, uh, gladly watch that video. U, we don't want to go into details and lose time on those points. So we come back to our narration, our verse, which was about the poor muajirin who were expelled. We have mentioned some, some, uh, some points among them that it's about a defined category, poor immigrants who were expelled. And we mentioned that other verses mention what this, uh, means. Here we have a verse 23, 24, where Allah talks about says, among the believers are men who have been true to to their covenant with Allah. So being true or staying true to the covenant to Allah is this, is one example. Next verse, Allah says, that Allah may reward the men of truth for their truth. So these are about covenants. It's not about narrating narrations. These are Muslims, companions of the prophet, who stayed on the cause of Islam in support of the prophet in the battles. Most of them were killed in the battles with the prophet, and Allah praises those in these verses of Quran. So this is the, uh, definition that we see in Quran itself. It has nothing to do with that our counterparts are trying to use from that verse. So the other point that we mentioned that Quran, that, um, these verses talk about traits, and we mentioned that it's mentioning the, and the next verse mentioning the generations who come after them and follow the same traits and things that Allah has, uh, has praised in this verse. And we also mentioned that hypocrites is of course, an exception to this rule because Allah says in Quran, here we have surah, the very first verse, when the hypocrites come to you, oh Muhammad, they say, we bear witness that you are indeed the messenger of Allah. Allah knows that you are indeed his messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are indeed liars. So hypocrites are liars. They cannot be, [clears throat] included in these verses as a blanket argument because these hypocrites were among the companions of the prophet. We have, um, Quranic evidence, authentic hadith, Sunni hadith that we presented. Um, the other, uh, point was that among the muajar, because the verse is about praising muajar, certain groups of muajarin, poor immigrants were expelled, that we said among the muajar, there were also hypocrites. Here we have, which is a summary of the of by the an scholar Ahmed Shak, and he mentions some of these suras, for example, he says, it was revealed in Mecca. It was not before Medina. So this surah mentions a surah which was revealed in Mecca, mentions about the existence of among the companions of the prophets. Next example, again, surah and kabud, he says, also revealed in Mecca, verse, Allah clearly mentions, and Allah knows. The next example, this is very interesting. This verse is very, very interesting because this verse, as they say, surah was revealed like many, many years before the, like many, many years before the hijra, and there Allah mentions that most of these groups who are in Mecca and around will not believe.

Time out. Okay, just before we move on, uh, to shake, I just want to reiterate two things. Part of the agreement, uh, if I have the attention of the, yeah, just part of the agreement was that when one of your, uh, companions is talking, that the other one cannot interrupt in between. In between. No, no, we can't.

No. When you, when you're doing it, then that's fine. But you can write to him. You can give him a note, but you can't intervene and try to. Which condition is that in, brother?

Yeah. There is a condition in there that says that during the condition timing, they can, they can speak amongst themselves and decide how to. Secondly, the references for the benefit of those watching, listening here, and on social media. Isn't it ironic that whenever the shake, whenever she references, he recites the Arabic, whether it's six ayat long or it's. No need to be. Not a single, not a single time have you ever recited or hadith. Don't cancel from my time. I will recite all of them.

And you kept saying. Don't cancel from my time. I will recite all of all the Arabics. And I will for many times in your last. In your last. Remotely off topic.

I think you're here just to make the is going to answer you with respect for the making everyone watching this conditions. Yeah, this is the time. The time will start to.

Change as per the conditions of the. With respect, as per the conditions that we would do. Personal commentary is a condition that is not. It's not permitted in in the debate. And from the, from the interlocators and from ourselves, we can't do personal commentary. So. Yes. Don't do that again.

He won't do that again. I, I think. Don't do that again. We will not be able to finish this debate because of the time. Just please, just please let us continue. With regard to the ayat, you can have maki suras with mi ayat and mi suras with maki ayat. Some, for instance, I'll give you examples. Is a maki surah, but it has mi ayat. Similarly, you can have the other way around. But it doesn't matter. Either. Great example. You can. Can you prove that about these verses that I mentioned?

No, you, you can, you can, you can question that when it comes to your turn now. When the issue. It's an active claim. He will, he will answer it. He's answering.

I'm answering now. You can ask him when it's your turn. Yeah. Thank you.

Yes. So, as I was saying, uh, with regard to our position is the prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wasallam, knew all the. He knew who they were. In fact, in, he says many times, they were exposed, their identities were revealed. We believe the were killed in the wars also, and their identities were shown. But as we go back, that when, as is mentioned in, when he wrote to, he says that the same people who gave to Abu Bakr and they are the same people who gave. They're the meaning. And then states, it was not upon the witnesses to choose, neither for those absent to reject. For indeed, the is who? States that the, if they gather on a man and they name him as the im, that is pleasing to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. So he's advising not to come out of the of the im. He says, meaning, you must come to the of the im. But the, the is The al muajir, one that gave the bay to Abu Bakr, Omar, and they are the same people who gave the bay to. And they are generally known as. Likewise, in, of course, there are numerous other points. If you talk about the authentication, of course, there are entire thesis written on the authentication according to the Shia. We have an example here, if you need to see it, like the work. Likewise, in, he states, we were with the messenger of Allah, am. What would happen? He says, we would kill our own relatives for the dean. So he carries on and he describes the. So he states that these. Now, this is praising those. But you mentioned with the Quran, with Alquran, you said this topic of Quran is nothing to do with. You said the Quran reaches, it reached us from those same. There is an major point here also. Anyone who believe the Quran is tempered is whether He claimed to be a Sunni, whether he claimed to be a Shi is a this is by. So what would you never be able to answer this? What would be the on the one who believes that the Quran is tempered, who believes the Quran is, does he have? The answer is, he will not have with regard to this interpretation of this is a modern interpretation. The interpretation that the people became except this is actually a modern interpretation. This modern interpretation that you have presented that means X Y and Z is actually from, uh, the Afarufar. And this is, this is a modern of the Shia sect. He was the one who actually presented this. This is, this is not from, this is not from the of the Shia. This is from the, from the, the modern Shia, they presented this. What did your mean say regarding the Sahab? The wording? So Ali, when you said that they became, means it doesn't mean that we don't believe he didn't become he but remain Muslim. There was no, even the meaning you mean of, there's no such thing. There's no such thing that applies to y would not disobey Ali. You, what you must do is just reject the report. It'll be end of the story. So similarly, what is mentioned in this is from. So the authentication again, uh, you can, uh, reject if you want, but I will read it. Nevertheless, for the sake of information, this is found in your books. Ali. This is, this doesn't sound like a Sunni. The use, meaning the, even the narration on the description of the swords, they asked him, they asked him regarding the description of the swords. He said, nothing wrong with this. Bakrik, he decorated his sword like this. And I said, you say this is not narration. You say, and you said, he, he jumped and he turned to the. Time starts now.

So brothers and sisters, look, the answers are not there. There's not a single verse that's been demonstrated today to prove that every companion is a prophet is a truthful person. We've jumped to of the Quran. We've jumped to of the Quran. I mean, what's next? I don't know. Anyway, let's, let's deal with this issue of the Quran. First and foremost, I will become a Sunni today. If you can show me one tradition from the companions that the Quran is complete.

Can we, can we pause there for a second because you've asked him to do something? I'll pause your time. I'll come back to you. Oh. It's giving you a challenge. What, what have you done? You know, I'm going to repeat that as a challenge. His mother is here for. I'm not going to wait seven minutes for for a challenge. He's asked for a challenge. Let's call this everyone. Wait, please. Let me, let me talk.

He's panicking. He's panicking. In my turn, I will rebut these points. Please continue the 7 minutes. 7. No one interrupt now. In anyone 7 minutes. I request do not interrupt my time again. If I get interrupted again, I'm going to please request that my time get started again on the sh as well.

Start from 7 minutes. No one interrupt now.

So, first and foremost, this is my challenge today. You cannot show me a single sahed tradition that the Quran is complete from the Saba. Number one. Number two, in terms of the transmission of the Quran, you have the Shia Quran cuz Huffs and Aim were Shia. You say they're corrupted in belief, but you accept them from the Quran. Why? Because they're truthful. You don't accept narration. This is my challenge. Now, in terms of the Quran, you believe the Quran is revealed in seven modes. Show me the six modes today. Show me the six modes of revelation of the Quran. He can't. Okay. So, now in terms of Kashal Gum, as a brother mentioned in the introduction, he says clearly that I included Suni Sunni and Shia narrations. So, please, you need to stop signing Kashal Gummar. This contains Sunni and Shia narrations. And if you are going to site there, then please provide the chain. There's no chains. There's no change. Now, also in terms of universal principle of logic, I know you've tried to throw your scholars under the bus. This is a universal principle of logic. If I can find one claim, it means all all argument goes out the window. Um, in terms of the prophet knowing the, no, he didn't. Um, in terms of the prophet knowing the, no, he didn't. If he first says that these are my companions and then it says, you do not know what they did after him. So the prophet becomes surprised. Okay. You also mentioned about this is a modern interpretation of. No, it's not. Infii, we have narations from that make distinction between im and Islam. There's a difference here because even hypocrites fall under Islam. So there's no modern interpretation there. Number six, the first narrator in this chain is a. Please give me the chain of transmission and again, the source, the letter, who was it to Mia's using it? He's saying the same people who accepted Mawya have accepted me. And perhaps you can tell us of the Mahajir and Ansad with the army of Mawya. I'll be looking forward to that answer as well. Yeah, here the reference, the writer is Amar Shabi. And he is, he has not even a direct companion companion of. So he is narrations from. So he is narrations from or more. And this is the, the narration that she quoted from. This is, yes, from which is like two centuries before wrote. This is his source. Right. And here directly also explicitly at the beginning mentions that this is an as brother Ali mentioned. So this is an that is giving. It's not his, his belief. Um, the other points brother Ali mentioned which we don't need to go, uh, into details about it about the names of Quran says, um, we you do not know them. We know them. Um, so this is the Quran. We you can interpret it or do it's on your own. But this is the zah of Quran. Is the other point was that also your scholars have mentioned that the prophet did not know. Yeah. In particular cases like these 12 hypocrites that brother say mentioned. Allah revealed the names to him. But it could be possible that others, not all of them, the prophet knew. And that's all what the Quran actually mentions that not all the hypocrites were, their names were revealed to the prophet. So I talked about also the, uh, um, verse which was about poor, uh, immigrants who migrated or who were expelled from from, uh, Mecca. And I said that can this apply to Abu Bakr? And I mentioned that this is evidence in in Sunni hadith. I mentioned the authentic hadith here from S Bkari narrated by his daughter Aisha. And he mentions that Abu Bakr was given protection. He wanted to migrate to Abisia. He was interrupted by Ibana, a head of the one of the heads of Quraysh. And he gave, he said, you do not need to go. I will give you protection. You can stay here. And he stayed there and practiced his and practiced his Islamic rituals. Like the, there was no problem for him. So later on, he migrated. Migrated by his own will. The other, uh, thing is that, Um, uh, I mentioned that Abu. [snorts] Bakr. This is also Sunni that Abu Bakr went or did hij upon his own. The prophet did not take him with himself. Here we have the of and he mentions with the authentic chain authenticated by Ahmed Shak, for example, among others. Uh, and he mentions that the prophet left Mecca and he did not, did not take or inform Abu Bakr that he's migrating. Abu Bakr only later on, he came to the house of the prophet and saw that alias Ali Alam was there sleeping in his bed and asked where is the prophet. And Ali Alam said, he's taken off to Medina. And was on the way joined to the prophet. So he was not expelled. This does not apply. This verse cannot apply to him. One exception, one exception is enough to collapse the u, uh, blanket argument that is made from such verses. The other thing that we mentioned also authentic hadith that Abu Bakr took all his money with himself. And that is what we see in authentic Ahmed Asma, the other daughter of Abu Bakr mentions that Abu Bakr took like five or 6 thousand that he had, all of it with himself. So he was not expelled as the Quran mentions from his wolf. He took his wolf and went to Medina. This is the other exception. So the verse cannot be applied even to Abu Bakr, let alone the other companions of the prophet. That's why we say these verses, um, are conditional. These are not blanket universally applying, uh, um, verses of Quran that can be applied to and the companions of the prophets. Um, how, how much time do you have?

Yes. Um, so but half a minute. The other verse that we mentioned, the Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are merciful, are harsh against disbelievers and merciful among themselves. We mentioned that, uh, this, among the things that we mentioned was that this, uh, praises the behaviors. Right. So time out. Time is up. Time is up. Yes. Okay. Um, just, yeah, just before we go on to check, we're on the fourth round for the benefit of those watching on social media, people here, we're on the fourth rebuttal, three more after this, in, but hopefully we won't need to go that farm. Firstly, with the, which I was reading, this does not seem like a Sunni narration because what happens is a person, he objects to Abu Jafur al Abu Jafur Muhammad bin Ali, and he says to him that you praise Abuak, and he said, yes, he is. Then Allah Allahh will not. This does not seem like a Sunni narration. That's just a side point. But what I wanted to mention, you mentioned in the cave, that is there a for him in the cave? The answer is yes, because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, when says, Allah is with us. Throughout the Quran, when you recite, you will find that is never utilized for someone who has not theat of the believers. And similarly, meaning Allah being with him. And similarly with his money, even if Sadun Siddik took money to Makkarama, we know from other narrations where he spent that money. We know that he gave his wealth in the way of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. The with regard to the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam knowing the, our is that the were revealed to as you believe in the knowledge of the imams, and each im, his knowledge is not less than the other im is found in. We believe is immensely more knowledgeable than everyone. And this knowledge was revealed toasam. He was aware of his surroundings. He knew knew who he was with. He knew the. And when he says, the simple answer to you is, who is telling us? The hadith is telling us that these group will come on. I will say the angels will say, you do not know what they did after you. And I will say, meaning, I will say, will tell them that that he's telling us is telling us that they will be removed from the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Did know who they were. And they were the people that I mentioned nearly 10 ayat that the was valid from Quran that Allah subhana wa ta'ala promised the sahaba in the mads were killed. The were killed. And was with the in this regard. With regard to the Quran being complete or not being complete, your challenge that you gave. Yes, there are narrations that mention in Sunni traditions. Some of them are weak, some of them are authentic that mention. But my challenge to you is not regarding that. Mine is that anyone who believes, whether a Sunni or a Shia, if he believes the Quran is tampered or the Quran is not complete, he's a kafir. You, you must believe the same. That even if a Sunni im, you give a citation, he believe the Quran is tampered, we will reject that statement and we will reject that person. But will the Shia ever do that same with Alaini? The answer is no, because he, he wrote his ki more than 250 years. So, uh, with regard to Alim Bkari, he compiled his in the in the early 2nd century. And with regard to aluli, he compiled just after. But you discredit. I'm afraid is not discredited according to the Shia. The is an accepted source. And there is, as I mentioned, that there, there's even a thesis written on that. You cannot just disregard what is in. You mentioned his letter to Muawia. It was jaw. But in that jaw, he said muajir and gave the bay to Abu Bakr and did the same that gave me. And the ba makes the person the im. That is what mentioned. With regard to every hadith or report, you mention one solitary report cannot cancel out Quran. You need to bring either like for instance, before the passing away of the messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam, the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said, all the should be closed except this is aith. It's mass transmitted that the all the doors should be shut except the door of Ali. All the doors should be shut except the door of Ali. Is similarly, all the all The windows should be shut except the door of Abuak. With Quran, you cannot bring isolated reports. This one report, that report, because when you quoted is only contradicted by with. If there is one that contradicts that cannot be that must be. I presented 10 ayat in the Quran. You must do of thelan that the clearlan that I mentioned with regard to, uh, what the of the, uh, you mention with regard to this is that they mention again. This time I'm quoting from what is mentioned that all the people became again. They, they state from the people, all left Islam. So who are the three? He said, Abu Salman. [laughter] Meaning they forced to give the bay. This is according to the Shia sources that they were three. When you say that this, meaning of, is doesn't mean they left Islam. It just means they were on disobedience. Provide that source from the early mean where that is mentioned. And when you say it's easy for you to provide names of 12,000 Sahab or whatever. The Sunnis alone reached around 7 and a half thousand names. Like in the time. Just, just before we continue, check the mic. Sure. Just for the point of clarification, this is the end of the fourth round of rebuttals. So clarification of rebuttal. So clarification for the conditions of the agreement, there are six rounds of rebuttals left. So it's 7 minutes, 7 minutes time, six. Just, just for clarification. And also just for the benefit of the audience, can you just clarify which authentication you're bringing for?

Yeah, I mentioned it just, I think I missed it. Just. I mentioned it in my. The mention. And it's, you have the copy. Yeah. [snorts] It's been noted and recorded. You.

Mind? [clears throat] So, you ready? Are you ready?

Start time now. Start time now.

Yes. Um, so there were some points again. I think we answered that he mentions clearly that he's citing the sources of Jumur. The narration that was cited from Abdullah Orura also we find out same narration from Abdah in narration. Um, he doesn't me mention even the chains. So there is no authentication against the rules that we, uh, um, have that every citation has to, um, hadith has to have an clear authentication, either authenticating the narrators or provide an authentic, a a credible source that a credible scholar who has authenticated the narration. The other point was about of Quran. We said for us, it's easy. Quran is yes or no. If it's mutawat, there is no need to, uh, analyze every single one of those narrators. Among them, the Quran that we recite today, if you read the chains of these narrations, all of them end to evidence. Provide for us. This is also a challenge. Provide for us an authentic chain for this Quran that we are reading, reading today. This recitation provides for us one single authentic chain, Sunni, single authentic chain that it has come through other companions than Ali Alisam. So about the from, we talked about it. Um, clearly says that this is an. Whatever comes in the in the content of that narration applies this rule that clarifies at the beginning of the letter. Um, about the narration, uh, the people did after, uh, uh, the prophet except for three. The same narration, we, uh, imam says that a group of the companions of the prophet shortly after that came back to the, they did repentance. So, and by hundreds, if not by tens and dozens of them fought alongside Amirasan later in his, uh, battles against the Kawar and against the, uh, other groups, um, in battle of Jamal, in. So, uh, this is for that case. Also, I think it's clear that this is a book, not a book of narration. It's a book literature because the author says at the beginning that he has chosen from among the reports those which he seems as, uh, illucent. He doesn't mention about the authenticity. Nothing is there. So you cannot, uh, use those sources which have no au, no chains mentioned as a, uh, just as a general authentication. So we come back to the verses that we mentioned among them that, uh, uh, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and those who are with him, um, are harsh against disbelievers and merciful among themselves. There we saw that, uh, hypocrites, we said that hypocrite, this verse cannot apply to hypocrites. Why? Because hypocrites were all physic physically with a prophet in his neighborhood. We have here surahab, if I just, uh, zoom it. Allah mentions that if the hypocrites and those whose hearts is a disease and those who spread false news among the people in Medina stop not, we shall certainly let you overpower them. Then they will not be able to stay in your neighbors as your neighbors, but a little while. So they were neighbors of the prophet, Muslims, [clears throat] by tongue, but no I iman at the heart among the companions of the prophet. And Qurans tells us, Quran tells us that Muslims and the prophet, these apparent meaning of the Quran is that the prophet did not know them. And scholars say, and scholars says, the prophet did not know them. So this is nothing that we have made, uh, from our own interpretation. The other thing that, uh, we said, reality check, that companions who are with the prophet are merciful among themselves. Does it apply to all? No. Because the prophet says in authentic, again, there's a complete B that don't turn after me. And he cites multiple narrations from the prophet where prophets address his companions telling them, don't turn kufur after me, killing each other, killing each, chopping each other's necks. And the prophet then in other authentic narration says that this will happen. So he prophesizes that this, he warns beforehand, and he also prophesizes that this will happen. He narrates two authentic chain of narrators say in multiple books. Uh, so when the prophet says that, let me also bring the translation. I shall be the first of you to die. The messenger of Allah says to his companions, and you will follow me in scattered groups destroying, meaning killing one another. This is the prediction of the prophet in authentic son narrations that this will happen. So in this, uh, verse that was used, does not apply to all, all of these who later turned kufur according to the.

Prophet Muhammad himself, don't turn to kufr by killing each other. This will happen, and history tells us all these prophets, all these wars after the prophet, happened. Or not all agree that these wars happened, right? So you see what kind of usage has been from these verses, which is invalid.

"Your time's up. Time's up. Your time is up. We're going to be moving on to who's going to be doing the rebuttal of..."

[clears throat and cough] Firstly, side mention, side mentioned the 10 or theat. From that, the Sunnis cannot provide chains of theat going to Sahabah. That's untrue. You can ask any...

"I mentioned of hs, you just..." He goes to Abdah, the citation. Yeah. The citation that we does go to Abdah. You can check the authentic. You can do a simple check, and you'll find that the theat do go to other Sahabah, including. And the theat, what is referred to as, is not only from HS, it's from others as well.

"Can I stop my..."

"We can start, but what we will do, we'll make a note of that, and those references will be provided to you in due course, but we'll resume that..."

"The challenge was completely different. So the challenge was, right, authentic chain of narrators for the recitation that we recite today, h from Abd al-Rahman."

"The most prominent chains that exist today. So the the mus that's published is from the sheh of Sheh Abdul Aziz. That's the that's published in Saudi Arabia and throughout the Middle East. That chain of narration goes back to various Sahabah. It doesn't just go to Imam Ali."

"They have put it there."

"And if no, it does go to Imam Ali, but not only Imam Ali, it goes to various..."

"That was we will provide. They'll provide that when it comes. When you can ask that question when it comes to your turn. Next, we'll resume the time shake starting again. Yeah."

"With regard to the other point of Quran. My challenge wasn't regarding, uh, what you mentioned. My challenge is that we deem anyone who says the Quran is Muhar is a kafir. And I believe that the majority of the Shia today believe that also. Anyone who says the Quran is tampered is a kafir, or anyone who says the Quran is, he becomes a kafir. No Shia should believe the Quran is narrist, or it's not complete, or some of it was hidden. We know what the Iranian position is, and we respect them for that particular position. I'm saying, but will you do of the person who believes the Quran is Muhar? We do of anyone, whether he be a Sunni or claims to be a Sunni. If he believes the Quran is Muhar, we do of him, irrelevant who he is. But what the quoted to you from the in the mentions held that position, mentions he mentions other imams. So then, with regard to you said that some of them did become mut, but they came back to Imam Ali and they helped imi. I said to you, if someone becomes a mut, is dropped. What is the position of a person who is a Sahabi? He becomes a he becomes a mad, then he does, and he comes back to Imam Ali. Is does he have the same status as a Sahabi previously or not? And we as do not hold the position that only pre-Sahaba remained because you were unable to provide even a simple reference for this definition that you gave of from late. The meaning they became, according to you, according to your books, only three Sahaba remained, and then they all did TBA and they came back to Alam Ali. You will be unable to even supply the names of who those people were. When they rejected, according to what you believe, the wa of Imam Ali and the Nusk, the wa of Imam Ali and the Nus, they rejected that. The narration I read out to you, according to that, they became. So in, when happened, when all these events happened, according to that narration, they all became, including. And when they became, they came back. We do not believe in that, and we can never believe that. How it contradicts Quran? The ayat Quran recited. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala promised the Sahabah that was fulfilled under Ali with im. Similarly, that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala promised that those who become from the Sahab, this ayah which was, this you need to answer. Whoever does it becomes a that this, if all the Sahab became, then who fought against them and killed them and went against them? None of that happened. In fact, the Bedouins were fought, Al was fought. All those groups were fought by Abu Sadik and the Sahabah and they defeated them. Similarly, that He shall make them on the earth, that was fulfilled in the time of Abu Bakr and Omar. And this means the the you need to do of this with with Quran. You need to do it with, as I mentioned, with regard to you mentioned the theat, that they are what? Firstly, this applies to the are the first people. This applies to the 313 who are the people of the sh that the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam gave them great fad. And then that same shah, the al were the people that was a part of, and then they established the on the earth. Those they did have, they were merciful. Even the, even when we go into the of the conduct of what said about them, it shows that they were still as the conduct of Ali shows. Otherwise, what would happen is that all these contradictions that, uh, it leads to various contradictions. And this is why the the Shia brought in, they had to bring in the the the belief of to cover up the internal contradictions because there was when he was doing good dealings with these various Sahabah, when he was doing those various dealings, came in. And when came in, they had to make sense of various. Yes, even that narration I mentioned to you of Alam Ali or Al Jafar, the narration when he gives a different answer to one person, a different answer to the other. We do not believe they would do that, the Imams, because the way Ali fought, he would have fought others also. This is why the belief came in. And this is, this with regard to what you mentioned, the the ayah Muhammad, you did not answer, answer that. Allah promised all of them. And Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala tells us in that anyone He promises for, they are they are far from, they will not be made to enter the fire. This is not regarding what you state certain traits that state. This is a promise of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. When Allah has promised all of them, He has promised them, then this rank of does not staying with the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam with im. If someone sees the best of creation with im, if someone sees the best of creation with iman, it benefits him. Because the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, his light is such a thing that it enters the believer, it the believer benefits from that light. And the believer, he will enter paradise with the Messenger of Allah. Fine. Subhan Allah. Um, okay. That brings us to the the end of that round. Uh, we're on, we're halfway through. We're on the beginning of the fifth round because the beginning is the fifth round. So, this, this, this is the [laughter] fifth round, and your time starts now.

"Okay. So, brothers and sisters, we are going totally off in a tangent. Total tangent. We having, we talking about, we talking about..."

"This is so far, everyone's a witness to this, this brother..."

"I've intervened and stopped. Anyway, thank you."

"Saying never come across. Wait, let's put [clears throat]..."

"Shall I take 20 seconds?"

"Just give me [laughter] 10 seconds. This is really bad."

"I will challenge. I make two challenges. One challenge."

"No, no, hold the time. You know, it's fine. Just my spot."

"I just take 20 seconds. You can..."

"Okay."

"Take a sip and then you can continue. I make two, two challenges from our counterparts to recite the first narration of S. Bukhari for us out loud, and the first narration of Sayyid Muslim. This is the first challenge, and translate for us those two narrations, and they can do it off of the, uh, their time, um, that is associated to the rebuttals. Second point about the verse of Quran that who is that with this, the is dropped. This is a definition that you are, you are giving. You cannot make us to play by your rules and by your definitions of and where when it nullifies the not. The Prophet says, those who did after him, he called them on the on the day of judgment, he calls them as hobby. We say hobby in other versions, and my dear companions. So this is, uh, one definition that you made from your own. Um, the other verse that was talking about, um, uh, if you do not, uh, comply or do not do no to the Messenger of Allah, Allah will change you with others who will come and do better. Right? This verse is off-topic also, because this, the verse is talking about completely replacing the companions with others. This is, this is actually an evidence for us, not for you. Um, the other verse about this is also about, which has nothing to do with our topic of the other point. Your scholars, the, shall I present you to you the evidences from the of Muhammad about? You can. Yes, let me then present. This is direct student of Abu Hanifa. And he says [clears throat and snorts] in his book, which is also called as the book, as famous as. Yes. Exactly.

"And he mentions that in a context that did from from, he said something to him, and his companion says, and he denied it. His companion said, why did you do that? He said, I'm just buying half of my religion with other, with the other half. And then, uh, Muhammad Shani then mentions the narrations about, there is a concept, means double speech, speech that you do not want to, uh, your, your the people that you address recognize that this is not true. It could mean this or this, right? You just scape the situation by these. This is a complete, this is, there is even a chapter for this concept in Bukhari, and he mentions that by, there is, there is an escape from telling lies. So is not something that we have invented or so, and it has nothing to do with our topic, but just wanted to mention that this is in your own most authentic Hanafi books. You have three minutes."

"Thank you very much. So, first and foremost, my challenge was not about the rules of abrogation. I asked you for a single saheeh tradition that the Quran is complete from any of the companions. To the contrary, I can show you many narrations from the companions on verses being eaten by a goat and so forth. But we can have a discussion on the Quran at some point. You mentioned, it seems like a Shia hadith. Well, okay. Well, it seems like it's a narrator. Where are we going to get like with seems like, and that doesn't seem like number six again, just because the scholars praise the book, and many scholars do, they praise the seed of the Quran, they praise, uh, books of hadith and so so forth, that doesn't make every tradition within the book itself authentic. Uh, it's interesting you ignored my question about how many of the and muhajirun were in the army of Muawiyah. You didn't answer that question, which you, uh, ignored. Anyway, since you are claiming that these traditions are isolated, like the one I mentioned about from Abu Bakr Das regarding, if a wrongdoer comes to you, meaning if a pass comes to you, what do you call it? Verifying the news. Abu Bakr Das quite clearly mentioned, um, that it was regarding, sorry, yes, thank you. And the Quran is mutawatir, so you can't escape that. So let's go to another surah in the Quran, Surah 66. Let's have a look at the surah is known as the chapter of prohibition. And look at the surah. Everyone can focus on Surah 66. You can bring up on the screen quickly. It says, 'O Prophet, why do you forbid something that which Allah has made an offer to you to seek Him to please who?' Your wife. So the wives of the Prophet are mentioned in this verse. Why? Why was it called the chapter of prohibition? And in this surah, we find that the wives of the Prophet are spoken harshly. Allah actually says to them, um, He orders them to repent. So these are wives of the Prophet. People around the Prophet were attributing false statements to him."

"Um, do you want to bring the..."

"Yeah, just, uh, looking..."

"For about six should be, um, sorry, just pause the clock. You guys see it?"

"Sorry, I was just missing it."

"Here you go. So if you [clears throat] yeah, if you scroll 20 from..."

"Your time is continuing. Okay. So the hadith is there in question, and you have a narration, uh, 6691, narrated by Aisha. The Prophet used to say, 'Stay in the house of Zainab, and he used to drink honey.' And I decided when the Prophet entered upon one, either one of us, I would say, 'I smell in you a bad smell of these are this must.' And you got a very clearly the wives, the Prophet. I can..."

"Read the Arabic for that. Read the Arabic. Read the, read. No, read it. Read."

"Not the whole narration. Just the part about the spelling."

"Yes. Read that. No. No. Let me read it."

"Read the Arabic."

"Let them pause it. That I am smelling from you."

"Did you eat?"

"What is madafir?"

"Yes. Yeah."

"Have you eaten? They've not even translated it in raising. Raisin. Yeah."

"It says it's a bad smelling kind of raisin. A bad smelling raisin is in the bracket. Yes. It's just def the translator is defining what was something smelly, which is not, not honey, which was the point of this, this hadith. You can give times up so..."

"No, no, no. Let them, let them find you. This was okay. No, it's fine. Let them have. Bless you. Bless you with this. I know you know to hear. He's trying so hard."

"I know you're. Please, please. Okay. [laughter]"

"Yes. Stop."

"Second. 40 seconds. Everyone stop. So anyway, the point is this. In Surah Tahrīm, Surah 66, you've got two verses that they lied. That was the point that you want to make."

"Okay. Wait, bro. Are you starting the time? You started 5 seconds ago. 10 seconds. Okay. So in the Quran is mutawatir. Two wives of the Prophet are conspiring against him. They've been rebuked harshly. Maybe can tell us which these two wives are. We've been re rebuked clearly in the Holy Quran, which is mutawatir. And of course, if wants to give us the names and let us know what was it, why, why have they been rebuked directly to the to the Prophet directly, the Prophet. Okay. With first thing, with regard to that, I just want to point out that what mentioned here is the position. That's just a technical point I wanted to that was not the claim of. He mentions it. The thing is, can I just [clears throat] stop you there for a second before Sheikh starts, and I'm going to make this categorically clear. When it's Sheikh's turn, you start asking. Right at the onset, you do you do ask..."

"This was not his rebuttal. Fair enough. Yeah. But when it's your turn..."

"But if I started doing that as well, it would be. I just didn't know that you were doing the rebuttal of. Then you start saying, 'Oh, we're being dead.' Sorry, I was just thinking he is just making references to ask you when it's your turn for the rebuttal. You're talking. No, let's be straight up. One second. Let's, let's be straight. Let's be straight."

"Why do you ask a question when the Sheikh starts? WHY DON'T YOU ASK IT in your rebuttal when it's your time?"

"All right, the points made. You've been interrupting before."

"Let the moderator speak on many, many occasions. So, with respect, I've paused the time."

"Let's carry on."

"Let's continue. Let's continue. Please message for brother Fedor. Please save the rebuttal for your [clears throat] question."

"Just sorry, I didn't know that he is doing his time was on."

"Okay. With regard to this, this is based upon does drop the or doesn't drop the if they go back to Islam. And this is why I asked you in your turn that the that you mentioned when they go back to Ali, does the drop the or doesn't it drop the? Because if it doesn't drop the, then you have the position of that's just a a point of clarification. Check the word here. Now, with regard to your challenge of reading the first in Bukhari, that's based on because the hadith states, and it mentions further. You're doing this to make the point. Translated the the point. You're doing this to make the point that they were people who did hijra for other than Allah, because the hadith mentions there were people, but that doesn't necessarily make them. They are believers, but they're doing an action for. It's fine, but they won't get a reward for the hijra. That's all that means. With regard to of Imam Muhammad Shabbani, and, uh, the, the mentioning is with regard to the if it comes to those things which are those things which are known by necessity, we believe the 12 Imams would not do in that scenario, like the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam never did. None of the Imams would have done. Would not have done. He was under duress or frightened of anyone. As for the, it mentions scenarios where a person may say something to save his life. If you say the Imams were in such a scenario that they were saving their lives from the people that they were talking to, you need to demonstrate this. I believe that is not the case with Imam Ali, who gave his daughter in marriage to. So with regard to what you mentioned, the goat hadith, uh, what Ali Imam mentioned with regard to the goat hadith, that goat hadith is not referring to the Quran being incomplete or what not. It's just mentioning that a parchment was eaten. It's rejected. But the point is that someone who believes the Quran is Muhar. That's not proven that Sahabah believed it's Muhar. It's not proven that any of them believed it's Muhar. If someone says the Quran is Muhar, what do I mean by Muhar? Tampered. If someone says the names were taken out, he becomes a kafir by believing the Quran is tampered. So that the challenge was regarding that you mentioned the Ansar and the in the army of like the the brother of. Now, I don't, I [clears throat] do not know your position regarding what is your position regarding similarly in serious sense, what is your position with regard to members of the Alu associated with like Abdah ibn Abbas, who sat in his gatherings without rebuking him? There are clear reports of that. With regard to what you mentioned, firstly, the you said it's Quran that is Quran, whether the the the person is in that is another issue that is based on. But I said bring like Ali, these are that the door of Ali should not be closed. Similarly, the of Abu Bakr should not be closed. With regard to the rebuking of the wives of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam in Surah Tahrīm, that was, it's a simple answer. That was in the lifetime of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. They were corrected by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Afterwards, they lived with the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, and after they were correct, corrected, the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam stayed with them and did not divorce them because the Quran mentioned that the outcome of you being bad would be that you would be divorced. They were not divorced. They stayed. It's end of story. It was during their lifetime. They were corrected. They were not Sahaba. Not by the way, all the Shia viewers should know, we do not believe Sahaba are Masum. What we say the rank of is so high that it means that they do not convey the deen in a wrong way. Then you mention the conveyance of the Quran. The Quran was conveyed by them. You cannot reject that. It wasn't conveyed by Imam Ali. Then it would be because it's one person. It was conveyed by a whole group of Sahabah. If it was just from Imam Ali, then it would be, but it's from Sahabah. So that is with regard to those things. Now, what I wanted to mention, you guys keep saying he's going off topic. These are not going off topic. They relate to..."

"That the the which was given to Abu Bakr Sadik, it has many ramifications. The Imam Ali, it has many ramifications. I mentioned the, you keep saying why does he mention thead? Your sources are saying only three people remained Sahaba. Only three people. That contradicts the Quran because we believe Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala trained this group of Sahabah at the hands of the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, that they fulfill the prophecy of the Quran, which is that was fulfilled. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala informs us, if they become, Allah will come with a group of people who love Allah loves and they love Him. Allah will destroy them. That never happened. In fact, Imam Ali, he was under no duress. There was no duress. Imam Ali, who is he? He stayed with Sahabah. We say Imam Ali was the one who planned the conquests because when he gave Shura to Omar, how to conquer Sharif, he was the one who advised Omar how to go in. And when he gave him, in the shows that all these Sahabah were, they had and they entered, they conquered those lands. There was no collision between them. Otherwise, Ali, he would not have given to in in marriage to. Was given in marriage. He wouldn't have done that if the was dropped. If the was dropped, would not have been married."

"Okay. So brothers and sisters, look, we having a subject. So again, respectfully, Sheikh, you should read the book of three volume book. He himself disregards this marriage because the little child. Maybe you can do a lecture on this topic at some point and say some of these traditions was touching her and so forth. I'll leave that to you. As what got to do with the topic of righteousness of companions, I don't know. Hadith, yes, according to your scholars, hadith can be accepted even if the chain of narrators there's in the chain, it's not necessary to investigate the chain. Now, regarding the two wives, the clans, the Quran stipulates that these two wives conspired against the Prophet and Allah rebuked them. I want you to show me the repentance in the Quran, cuz whenever people are being rebuked in the Quran, Allah always shows his repentance. You also mentioned, but they stayed with them. But we also find in Bukhari another narration that Allah tested the Ummah through the wives of the Prophet, as mentioned in the narration. You said the Sahabah are not Masum. Which is absolutely fine. But in my definition of Adala, I mentioned the things that would take a narrator out of. You also have to acknowledge that some of the companions, by the Sudi definition, they would fall out the definition of Adala. Um, as for, you said about Abu Bakr being in the cave, you mentioned about God being with them and Surah 2 verse 153, 'Indeed, Allah is with the patient.' Surah 16 verse 128, 'Indeed, Allah is with those who are mindful and those who do good.' Indeed, Allah is with the doers of good. So the point is, Allah is always with everyone. He's always with us at all times. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, in Quran, sorry, and Quran, um, uh, by, and volume number 22, page 567, Abdullah ibn Mas'ud claimed that the two Surahs of the Quran, Surah Al-Falaq and An-Nas, are duas, they're prayers, they're not part of the Quran. So what's your fatwa on Abdullah ibn Mas'ud? Also, you yourself, you know that even the Bismillah is contested amongst the four Imams, whether it's part of the Quran or not. Okay. So, I challenge stay the same. You couldn't show me a single hadith about the Sahabah saying the Quran is complete. We can't do it. But anyway, we can have a discussion about the hadith or the Quran. You insisted on mass apostasy. If you look at this narration, the brother is going to bring up, cuz you keep pushing this idea about mass apostasy, that oh my god, this is something absurd, and, you know, this is something the Shia have just concocted. Look at this. This is Sayyid Bukhari, page 20, hadith number 3349. This is narrated from who? Abbas. This narration is the Prophet said, 'Some of my companions.' He also said earlier, 'The Prophet knew the companions.' But Surah 9 verse 101, Allah makes it very clear that there are hypocrites that are also not known to the Prophet. Show me a verse in the Quran that the hypocrites were always known to the Prophet and he knew who they were. You can't. Look at this. It says, 'My companions, my companions.' Why is a Prophet calling hypocrites his companions if he knew them? It would be said, 'They turned renegades after you left them.' Meaning after the Prophet departed, they became. So the narration is, is clear. The Prophet doesn't know these are. Look at this. Now look at the commentary of this. Ibn Kathir mentions the following. What does it mean by? He says, 'Here is not decisively an indication of outright apostasy, meaning leaving Islam altogether. Although that meaning is possible, rather it also can be interpreted as disobedient believers who deviate from the straight path, turning away from upright conduct and choosing corrupt actions instead of righteous deeds.' So this is exactly why we must apply on the companions of the Prophet. Supply that original read from the Arabic, please."

[clears throat and cough]

"He says, But what does he do?"

"He can give citations to anyone."

"That's fine. But it's a respectable position held by..."

"Yes, please."

"It doesn't mean he's. This is what I'm saying. By scholars."

"Yes, please."

"So if you just go down further, before you slow down. There you go. So have a look at this tradition. The narration says, what now narrates. I once, and while I was standing, the Prophet saying, 'A group of my persons come to me, and once I'll recognize them.' Prophet sees who these people are, and then they'll be, they'll be taken away, and then it'll be said to, 'Where hellfire?' I swear by Allah, I will say, 'What's the offense? What have they done wrong?' He will say, 'They turned apostates after your death.' So after the death of the Prophet. So these people are not like the way in the sense that trying to explain to. Look at the last part of the narration. They escaped after your death. I did not see any of them escaping except a few. Except a few. Let's go to the next source. So this hadith is mutawatir. And if you go to the same Muslim, this is a well tradition. Let's have a look at what he says in. He says in commentary of this great narration, 'Few means none of them will survive from hellfire except a few.' Now, you may know the commentary of this. Look, look. Same commentary."

"Okay. So on the screen."

"Okay, no problem. Yes."

"Yeah."

"Except for a few. None will survive."

"Except for you. Alhamdulillah. The same thing in your books as well. We both agree on this."

"By the way, none of these things. Um, anyway, let's continue. [laughter] Uh, this is, so this is from..."

"The of which hadith? Except a few. Except a few. Wait, I want to see the narration, cuz you, he is right that it's not helpful when you don't read Arabic. It's not helpful. So I just, uh..."

"So is that the hadith? The one in the box?"

"No, no, the, this one. Uh, yeah, this one."

"Should be..."

"Uh, not the, the Arabic. I want to see the Arabic of the, the hadith that is commenting."

"Yeah, I think..."

"This one."

"This one. Yes. Yes."

"Yeah. So wait, wait. This is a dream."

"No, no, no. No, it is. Look, whose dream was it?"

"No, it's a dream of a group. Listen, I'm actually talking about the court. I'm not. Look, it says, yes. What does that mean?"

"This is the dream of the Prophet regarding what he says. Is, is the Prophet false?"

"No, no, no. I'm not saying that. Are you understanding what I'm saying? I'm saying this, the Prophet is saying a group is brought. Yes. Yes. What does he say? How is this about the Prophet says companion? Why don't you read it? Show me about. Please continue to read."

"No. No. Why do you want me to translate for you? You made the claim. But what's the commentary of this narration? Which had..."

"You are giving a. You are decontextualizing this very clearly. It's, it's a hadith about a dream."

"This is the same."

"No, it's not about."

"You got this highlighted. No, this is the narration is here, mate. Look at the chapter. Chapter of this."

"No, but you haven't got this highlighted. You got this highlighted. He's commenting on that."

"Yes, he's commenting on the same."

"He's not commenting on the same hadith. You, you can't deceive people with this."

"Okay. Why is it deception?"

"Because it's not about Sahabah."

"Okay."

"He said he says, you tell. Look, it says, just translate it, and you'll see."

"Okay. Just read it because you're brother."

"No, but the thing is, you need to, when you, you're reading, I'm reading from your books completely. I'm not taking anything out of context."

"No problem. I'm not taking out of context. I'm not quoting. Okay. So, by the way, Ibn Kathir mentions the same thing as well. Commentary of this. Um, he's saying the word means a few. Only a few will escape. Now..."

"People generally give it up to direct missions."

"So, what do we know? We establish from the from the from the Quran, we establish through mutawatir, there essentially going to be mass apostasy. Only a few people escape. So you keep going down further. So now we got direct admissions to innovations from companions themselves. Okay. So this hadith is Bukhari 1025, and this is from. He was amongst those who pledged also by his nephew. His nephew, sorry, forgive me. Said to him, 'May you live prosperously. You enjoy the company of the Prophet and you give him bay'ah under the tree.' He said, 'Oh my nephew, you do not know what we innovate after him.' The companions admitted to his direct commission."

"Thank you. Okay. So, let's continue. Let's have a look at another tradition. This hadith you see in the next page. Can we continue? This hadith is also mentioned by, and it's narrated by Muslim. This narration is actually from the wife of the Prophet, Aisha. She says herself, 'I intended to be buried in my house alongside the Prophet, Abu Bakr, but then I introduced an innovation after the Messenger of Allah.' Maybe to tell us what the innovation was. Let's have a look at this interesting narration. This is mentioned in Sahih 139, hadith number 530. This is from Zuhri. Again, this narration comes through four, five different, uh, transmissions. I entered upon Al-Malik in Damascus. Please let us know who was in charge of Damascus at the time. And I found him weeping. So I said, 'Why are you crying?' He replied, 'I do not recognize anything from what he used to know, except the salah. That even the salah has been changed.' What's this innovations? I thought they're holding the religion. Look at the next. The wife of Abu Dharr has been praised as one of the people she learned the Quran from. Same one. Uh, firstly, I would like to say to you, you with regard to what you mentioned here, regard at the end regarding Al-Malik, when they Malik, when they would refute bid'ah, you think if they went to today, they'd recognize anything that happens there? Anything that happens at the mashahid, at the graves? Any of the bid'ah that we see at the people? So when they went, when these Sahabah went to Damascus, they saw people doing things. How can you infer from that that Muawiyah or anyone else was responsible for that? When there's a clear narration from Muawiyah when he enters Medina and he sees the people doing hair extensions and he condemns it, and then he calls upon the the Imams, the Imams in alignment."

"This is my time. That's why I thought they started [laughter]. Ask why would I do that? I wouldn't. I know. I know. I know my time. I realized."

"But because..."

"Should we start again?"

"You..."

"Okay."

"Look, I'm saying to you that these hadith you mentioned at the end, they don't really improve anything because the Sahabah would condemn any new action. They would refer to as hadith. Abdullah ibn Abbas saw people praying, uh, he saw them praying Salat in Jama'ah. He said it's a he said it's hadith. This is something else. You can infer what you want, but it doesn't prove any one of your points. With regard to the, I want to go back to that. We have a a belief that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala informed the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam of the, the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam informed of all the names of the. Yes, you're nodding your head that it's true. So the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam did know. Doesn't only apply to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala taught the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam those things which he did not know. From them is the, you cannot say the Imams know what's in the heavens and the earth, and then you say the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam doesn't even know the people around him. This belief does not make any sense. You end up sounding like those who reject that the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam was given knowledge, wasn't given knowledge of the hypocrites. If you say he was associating people and he didn't know the hypocrites at the end of his life, and then he passed away not knowing the hypocrites, this is false. So, uh, what you mentioned with regard to Quran, my challenge was again misunderstood. All I said, you said, prove to me the Sahabah said the the Quran is complete. The answer is simple. All of them, when they compiled the, they sent it out in the east and west. That was of the Sahabah was a part of that. But my challenge to you was, anyone who rejects and says the Quran is mu is heir, or no, we say yes. Why can't you say yes? Why can't you say yes? Is it because becomes a kafir? Is it because becomes a kafir? Just say yes, and you've answered my challenge. Additionally, you said whoever Allah is with has a good attribute. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala never says He is or He is anyone who's evil. No. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says when He says the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam says, 'Allah is with us.' Meaning, as for this, you mention and rejecting the marriage of, I do not know who this is, except that he refuted him. But these are, I don't really care. Your own books mention the marriage of, for instance, what's mentioned. It has all the narrations that Muhammad narrates from and from Abdah. A woman whose husband dies, does she stay in a house or not? He says, no, she can go wherever she wants. Why? Because Ali died, he left, and he took to his house. There's also here in again, in what it mentions under this, uh, it states the same narration. I asked her regarding a woman when she dies. He says, when Omar died, came to, he took her to her home. Similarly, in, you have the narration. You can't deny all of these narrations. He mentions that regarding Ali, that the daughter of Ali, when she passed away, her son passed away with her, whose name was in one hour. It wasn't known who died first. That the inheritance laws, he gives the laws of inheritance according to the in that narration, but it affirms the marriage of, and I'm mentioning this. Similarly, with regard to, you have this intim, and nevertheless, what it states, it mentions the husband who dies. It mentions the same narration that when passed away, he came to, and likewise, he says, the narrator says, he says, Abdah asked as where should she do? He asked the same question, and he mentions the same thing. These are like no less than four narrations from your authentic, meaning will accept this without any, uh, problem. But there is also, uh, why I mention all of this is because you said this person, he, uh, rejected this. He, he may have been from another sect, but the thing is that N, he refuted him in Nu. So, uh, what else? Uh, what I wanted to mention regarding that, that Ali said in, what is Imam? That you prefer truth, if the truth harms you, over false lying. That you prefer truth that where the truth, it will harm you, over lying. If you lie, it will harm you. You do not lie. You still speak the truth. This is of that always speak the truth. We believe was a companion who stayed with the, he stayed with the, sorry, we got issue. We got to shoot 10:15. What happened is the half an hour, they, they started it when we came. So he's saying that we actually started at half five, even though the booking was. So he's saying that's why he's not going to want to extend."

"He's also asking how long are you going to be a bit so you say you got an hour, 2 hours, he'll come back."

"That's fine. We can do that. Okay, we can have the 2 hours or an hour."

"An hour. Can you give me a minute?"

"Just for a short break. Short break in. We will be back. There is..."

"Leave the live stream running. Yeah, delete the live the live stream. I can't go."

[clears throat] [laughter]

"So, but the money transform [snorts] heat. Heat. Yeah. Should be..."

[clears throat] [clears throat]

"This..."

"So we managed to extend it to half, uh, sorry, half 10. What do you want to do in terms of the remaining rebuttal rounds? Cuz there's four more rea to go, and obviously we won't be able to do all of them. So either option [clears throat] we have. But because the time and a summary..."

"Why is the time being shortened so..."

"He's just being different. He wants to go home, celebrate it. He knows very well. Money, he's saying he doesn't want anything."

"Okay, so we'll do the last two."

"Yeah. Should we toss a coin? Who goes last? That'd be fair, considering that expected more time."

"Okay. Toss [clears throat] a coin. Toss a coin. Don't have it. Doublesided."

"[laughter]"

"Are we actually..."

"Have you got one of the coins?"

"It's not a cool coin. [laughter]"

"Are we actually doing that?"

"Yeah. Toss a coin. Have..."

"You got a coin?"

"It's fair."

"So, who's going?"

"Yeah. I, I go with the head."

"No. No. I go with the head."

"I'll go with the head. Go. Look."

"Bring it. I'll go with heads."

"Yeah. I'm going last."

"[laughter]"

"We need to move on with this quick. Okay. 5 minutes instead of seven. 2 hours."

"Your time starts."

"And then we have a sorry at the end. So we have no summary and finish 22 minutes. We start now."

"Yeah."

"Sorry. Before you start the time, there's one clarification that we agree. We had agreed that we do two to two debates, right? Just the brother does not participate in the debate. This was not agreed. If we knew actually this is the case..."

"He is participating. He's helping."

"He is participating. He's helping. He has no because he's, he, no, he's helping. Just, yeah, it's for clarification. This is not two against one. So, um..."

"This [laughter] is their decision and what you can..."

"Yeah. I did the challenge about Bukhari and Muslim, the first narrations, and the Sheikh just brushed it off. The first one was the Sayyid Bukhari narration. It says that the deeds are upon intentions, and, uh, in the context of immigration, and that was the context that so every narration, every verse of the Quran that we see applying this authentic narration, accepted narration for the Sunnis, you cannot just use this umbrella strategy with with all those verses. The the deeds depend on intentions. You don't know the intentions of all these muhajirun. You cannot say all of them are the same way. The first narration of Sayyid Muslim [clears throat] um, this narration is also in Bukhari, but everyone can remember that this is the first narration Sayyid Muslim where the Prophet says, 'Do not, do not lie upon me.' He's talking to his companions. 'Do not lie about me or upon me.' The actual translation, uh, because whoever does that will enter the hellfire. So this is the, uh, challenge that Sheikh did did not fulfill, um, as we wanted. Um, these other ones, we are not talking about the Omar, we are talking about the, the, all companions. Is if it's off topic and it doesn't, uh, really help if we, uh, go into details because it's completely going off track. Um, so, but last, we wanted to also mention this narration that's, uh, that we presented at the beginning, that there were 12 hypocrites. The story of them has been mentioned in Sayyid Muslim and many other books. And, um, the story is basically that, a summary of the story, that the Prophet on the way to Tabuk or from Tabuk, um, he was informed by Allah that these 12 hypocrites among his companions want to are are plotting to assassinate him among his Muslim companions, and that's why he said that I will take made someone to announce that, uh, I'm taking the passage on the side of the. One side is the mountain. The other side is the cliff, and there's [clears throat] a small road which the camel of the Prophet is taking. So the Prophet says, 'I'm announcing nobody is allowed to take this passage,' and then he goes to there. He takes two companions, Ammar in in front, and from the behind, and they go with the Prophet that these 12 hypocrites appear to push the camel of the Prophet, and Ammar attacks him, and this is the basic story that we see in Sayyid Muslim. We don't have much time to go into the into the details. The important thing is that this is the, the reason that, uh, is has been mentioned as the companion of the Prophet who knew the secret of the Prophet. This was the secret, the names of those 12 hypocrites, and the important thing is authentic narration in in Muslim, Ahmed, Ibn Hajar, and so on, and this was the dispute between one of those and, and the name of those that has not been mentioned. The name of one of those companions who wanted to assassinate the Prophet, uh, has been mentioned in, but not in Sayyid Muslim and Ahmed, for example, and that is none other than Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, who from whom a respected companion of a Prophet for for our counterparts, hundreds of narrations, Sayyid Muslim, Sayyid Bukhari, and other books, and he was set by Jose that he was among those 12 companions of the Prophet. Sayyid chains of narrators that we see here..."

"Just for citation purposes, what volume is this?"

"Uh, I will give you the volume as well. It's volume, uh, 20 in this, in this publication, which is by Muhammad."

"Yes."

"And the page is, uh, 614."

"Okay."

"Narrates from Abu. Yeah. Exactly. That this was a dispute which is, uh, taking longer than than we have time. So this is basically the first evidence. And the second thing is that we have other evidences, other independent narrations talk about same Abu Musa, who knew the names of those, those 12. Tells us that those were that he was a hypocrite. And this narration has been narrated by, he mentions, uh, in the biography of the companion of the Prophet who knew the secret of the Prophet, and he says that, um, that, uh, we were sitting, we were sitting with, uh, with Abdah, Abdah, and, uh, Abu Musa al-Ash'ari taking, sorry, entered the mosque. Said, 'One of these two is a hypocrite.' Two companions of the Prophet was coming to the mosque, is sitting with someone to in a group, and says, 'One of these two is a hypocrite, either Abdullah or Abu Mu'awiyah.' And he says, then, then he continues, he then says, 'Indeed, the person whose guidance, conduct, and character most closely resembles the Messenger of Allah is Abdah, Abdah.' So implicitly confirming, implying [snorts] that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari is the hypocrite. Second evidence besides. And the other evidence is that in Bisham, used to supplicate, used to do in his, in his salah against, and his followers. This, the same way the Prophet used to recite or do against the head of in Mecca. Um, this, the building is the same. Multiple companions of the Prophet who were no authentic, authentic. [clears throat] Yeah. Yeah. This. Yes. So, sorry, can I just, as a more, can I just, are we on just three? Just last 10 minutes each?"

"That was that was my time. I think I don't need to recute. So brothers and sisters, I'd bring this debate to a close and support step back and look calmly and clearly at what's been established."

Without motion, without limits, and without disturbances.

Of course, from the outset, we made it clear that this discussion was never about sincerity, or sacrifice, or righteousness of all companions. This was never the claim of the examination. Rather, the issue before us was the associate that all the companions are upright and truthful. The claim is tested against the very standard it appeals to and cannot be proven. We didn't see the respective shs establish any evidence about the proof about all the rather we went into side issues and of course Arabic correction. The kindest against the falls apart anyway.

A principle accepted across Islamic scholarship: truthfulness alone does not establish uprightness. I want to focus on this: truthfulness alone does not establish uprightness. Both Sunni and Shia hadith sciences recognize that a person may be truthful, may be truthful in speech, and yet still be rejected due to innovation, deviation, or unreliability in religious authority. And this is not a controversial point. It's a foundation to hadith methodology.

And of course, we looked at the principles of *adalah*. And of course, within these traditions, we find tons of examples where we have narrations that are much transmitted from the companions of the prophet when it comes to an issue of innovation and them accepting. So history confirms what revelation already establishes. The earliest generation criticized each other, experienced civil wars, internal conflicts, and open disputes. The companions themselves did not view one and another as immune from criticism or beyond accountability. By today's standards, they would have been considered disbelievers. If companions can commit major sins like murder, apostasy, then what's to assume they cannot lie, which is even a which is nothing.

Anyway, the understanding is not true, emotional, or securing. It's principal and logical. It honors the righteous companions of the prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and places the Quran at the center of evaluation. For our brothers and sisters today, it's not about celebrating. It's about confidence. Confidence that our principles are rooted in revelation and that our methodology can withstand scrutiny.

For those watching at home, especially those who are open-minded and critical, this discussion is now in your hands. Reflect, of course, watch interruptions, of course, and of course, the correction and Arabic as well. Um, that's all for you guys to do. Decide, set aside inherited assumptions and emotional attachments. What's been established today will remain established tomorrow. We thank the host, instructors, and the moderators for facilitating the discussion, and we appreciate respectful engagement throughout this morning. To truth and pleasing to you. Your time's up, inshallah. Um, and the sheh will summarize in the last 10.

Yes, I will conclude the debate. I will conclude the debate that firstly, what I mentioned with regard to you cannot equate killing and wars with *kufr*, leaving the fold of Islam. So Allah *subhanahu wa ta'ala* informs us if the *sahaba* leave Islam, if they become *murtad*, they will be destroyed. The Quran promises that, and that did not occur. Instead, what we saw that the *khilafah* was established, and that was the promise of the Quran. That *ayah* that I mentioned, you did not even respond to it, that Allah *subhanahu wa ta'ala* promised the believers that they will have, and that happened. And it happened with the guidance of Imam who did give to Abu Bakr Siddiq.

Similarly, the point with regard to *sahaba* are not lying. If you just study the hadith of Muawiyah alone, because the Shia, they despise Muawiyah the most, and Al-Hasan, for instance, you check their hadith in the *Sahih*. Muawiyah only has 30 hadith only, and every single hadith is supported by a few other *sahabah*, and some of them were not on the side of Muawiyah. Every single hadith. Similarly, he only has 10 hadith only. In the *Imam* Ali has more in the Sunni books. Imam Ali has over 500. From the Imam Ali has the most. One of them, and Omar, Abu Bakr Siddiq only has 141 in *Sittah*. This shows that even the likes of Muawiyah and Al-Hasan, they did not make any lies. They didn't even make one hadith against Imam Ali. In fact, they praised Imam Ali. For every *sahabi* who was on the side of Muawiyah, there is not one single *sahabi* who lied about Imam Ali, and they could have made a lie. A few hundred, they could have got together and say the prophet *sallallahu alaihi wa sallam* used to condemn Imam Ali. Not a single one. And I believe that one point alone refutes your entire argument. Unless you think they are *murtad*, there is no way you can refute the *sahaba*.

Now, why I mentioned is because you know what Keni says about what he states regarding. I didn't bring up in the debate because it's too disgusting to even mention. Why I'm bringing that up is that even when he affirmed, when he affirmed the marriage of what you didn't answer the. This argument, this you're going to end up doing what did. Don't, but you're doing what. Argument. Yeah, but here, for instance, you didn't answer that. Is the position, yes or no? Similarly, I'm not going to even read what he states regarding the daughter of Imam Ali because we do not. Sunnis should not have foul tongues and use foul language like some *Rafidha* use against some *Rafidha* they use against. We never use those type of words even regarding the enemies of the prophet *sallallahu alaihi wa sallam*, meaning foul sexual language. He, he, this is in Al-Kafi, and if it's. It's. This. No, that's not the point. So, he even knows what the word is. But it's. I challenge you to even translate this. You cannot even translate it. You cannot even read. Not I'm not talking about your Arabic. I'm talking about the content. The content is too bad. It's vile. Keni should be dismissed for saying such a thing about the daughter of Ali. In fact, he should be declared a *Nasibi* for having said such a thing.

Similarly, we there are many points to cover that, for instance, we know about the intricate link between the *Ahlul Bayt* and Ali. It was not. Now, some people say, so what if Abu Bakr, his lineage goes through Imam, his lineage goes through Abu Bakr twice? It doesn't really mean anything. Well, if you believe the *Imamate*, the lineage should be pure. Us are in agreement with you that the prophets, their lineages are pure. Similarly, if you believe the *Imams* are, their lineages must be pure. You cannot have a *kafir* or a *madhhab* in the lineage. Secondly, what he said, he, in the Sunni version of this same quote, he said, "I do not curse someone who is related to me, who is in my lineage." Abu Bakr's famous quote, that's even found in the Shia books as well. So likewise, we know the naming. Now, the naming of the progeny of the *Ahlul Bayt* with the names of the *Sahaba*. Why would they choose out of all the names, Omar, Uthman, and Abu Bakr? You say they were common names. Which Shia today names his child Abu Bakr? They don't. Which child, which Shia names his son Omar? They do not name them Omar. But the *Imams* of the *Ahlul Bayt*, they even name their children Aisha. They name them Aisha. If they were all such, which doesn't even apply, it makes no logical sense, they would not name them. And what not, as is clear from the *Shuhada* of Karbala, that Imam Ali's, his many of them, they had the names Omar, Uthman. They had the names of the *Sahaba* as well, Abu Bakr. Out of all the *kunya*, they chose Abu Bakr. Similarly, Al-Hasan Al-Mujtaba, one of the *kunya* of Imam Abu Bakr as well, meaning out of all the *kunya*, you don't choose like Hakim, the *kunya* of Abu Jahl. You don't choose those kind of *kunya*.

Similarly, the name, we have all these points. There are many other points that we could have covered today, but because I have five minutes, I will add to this that why they.

Sorry, you just for clarity, you have four minutes. And also, just as moderator, and I say this with respect, but you know, the points you're making now are. Are you going to tie them back in?

Yes, I am. That's. New points. That's what I'm doing. I'm going to tie all in. What I want to advise our Shia listeners is the following, that there are many internal contradictions if you adopt the Shia position with regard to the false story of Omar and hurting Sayyidatuna Fatimah. It's a false story. It's not even established properly to the point that the Shia also dismiss it, and it, and many Shia public, they buy this because of the scholars who mention this without any real knowledge. There are many false stories, and some of them are exaggerated. And additionally, it contradicts the role of Ali, what he had with the *Sahaba*. It wasn't Imam Ali was not doing with Abu Bakr, and this is why I mentioned the marriage of the two. They had two children. Why I mentioned that is because they had dealings. There are so many things that are misconstrued and made up. And so many reports regarding Aisha, for instance. So many of the Shia public, when they left comments about Aisha, they left filthy comments saying she taught men how to bathe. This is what they are taught. But in Sahih Muslim, it's her own nephew. He comes to see her behind a veil. She delivers, she gives the water, the basin of water to her nephew, saying this is how much water we use. She, now she didn't get naked in front of her own nephew. But the Shia public, they write, she breastfed grown men. This is false. Sayyidatuna Aisha took the position that the milk of a grown woman makes the man a *mahram*. She based that on the action of the prophet *sallallahu alaihi wa sallam*. But the Shia public misconstrued that. So why are they misconstruing? Because they have this false position with regard to *Sahaba*. They take one thing and they go to another and another and another, and they have fallen into major mistakes. That this was not the *madhhab* of the *Imams* of the *Ahlul Bayt*. The *Imams* of the *Ahlul Bayt* had our *madhhab*, and we can prove that also. This is why in our sources, there are so many statements regarding the *Imams* of the *Ahlul Bayt* which contradict the Twelvers and their narrations. And of course, I didn't even go into the method of hadith of the Twelvers that even the *madhhab* was only because of who is known as Islam amongst the Hanbali school, that because of him, the *Ahlul Bayt*, he adopted seventh in the seventh and eighth century, that so many of their narrations in the Shia books, when you present them, they will say those narrations are weak. So therefore, this is why I advise from this debate that the Shia adopt the position that they do not curse any one of the companions of the prophet *sallallahu alaihi wa sallam*. They do not, they do not destroy their *iman* for these type of arguments, and they go back to the school of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, which we believe Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq is our Imam, an Imam of an Imam who taught the truth, who was related to Abu Bakr Siddiq, and also he associated with Imam Abu Hanifa, and he associated with Imam Malik, Imam.

So based on this, they're saying that the hall is closing. So based on this, I will conclude the debate. The debate is concluded. Well, I thank you for everyone.