Transcription
Like explaining Noah's Ark to somebody, you have to go beyond logic. There, there's a logic that has to supersede it.
I agree with you. Just one point that part I agree with you, Judy. I do agree that if you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, the orthodox (lowercase o) doctrine of Trinity, you have to abandon logic.
Um, Judy, you, Judy, you're live on the air. Go ahead with your question.
Oh, that was quick. Good morning.
Had to do some general.
Good morning. How are you?
Yeah. Well, I really, as usual, I I have at least 50 questions, but I'll start out with um the the most important question I can think of. And forgive me if I if this was already um covered, but you were just speaking about God as being one. So this is like true or false. Did not God emphasize him being as one? And then the issue became that there were idols and the Jewish people and again, I'm not isolating Jewish people, but they had their idols and other gods. So you know, there can be no other god. God is one. However, Christians understand and there seems to be a misunderstanding that we, of course, say God is one, but Jesus is in a sense like a microcosm of God. He is God is perfectly capable of manifesting himself as a human being and still being one. Now, I also want to address...
Can I, may I? You can address that, but let me ask you a question, Judy, just to understand your view because I'm I'm not quite sure. You will ask that question just for a moment. I want to understand this. Do you believe that I know you believe in God the Father. Do you believe that God the Father is the Son? Is God the Father begotten? Is God the Father, the Logos, or do these characteristics belong to Jesus alone? What do you believe about that?
No. No. I I believe that as one person, like we are body, soul, and spirit, God can be three-dimensional. So the Father is the Father of Jesus. Meaning that he, you know, he was manifested. God was able to as the Father of us and him...
What does that mean to you that...
Manifest.
I'm not, Judy, I just ask you, please keep her on. First of all, you're very sweet for putting up with me. I'm very grateful to you. You're a very sweet woman. I just want to understand this. If God is the Father, is God and Jesus the Son, is God, what does the word Father and Son then mean? What does that designation even mean? Could you give some meaning to it? It means the Father is not the Son, right? Jesus alone is the Son. The Father is not the Son. So what is, what does that mean then? That means if they're all one, why isn't the Father the Son?
Yeah, I've asked that question myself because um I question that. Like, really, is Jesus like God's only son? But he's the only son on earth. He was, he took...
I I got that. I got that. My question is, why aren't we looking at two gods? In example, in the Christian Bible, Jesus is having long dialogues with God, asking him questions, things that he does not know the answer to. "Why have you forsaken me?" He has a whole series of requests and prayers in the farewell discourse extending from John 13 through John 17. Like, is he talking to himself? Uh, does he not know the time of the end? Does he not share the mind of God if he's just the same thing? Explain that to me because that's what I can't wrap my head around.
Well, it's like, I I know you've studied this extensively and you, I'm sure you've heard every answer, but he took the form of a man and he, he allowed himself limitations so that he could accomplish what he needed to accomplish for the salvation, the provision of salvation, which it seems like that was the only solution for the state of mankind. The state of mankind was that, you know, yes, God was forgiving everybody, but it still wasn't the solution, had it?
I I get that, Judy. And if you want, I'll abandon this. I I But I really want to understand how your mind works. You've called in many times, and I'm I feel enriched by having you as a as a viewer. When Jesus asks God in the passion, "Take this cup," not as my will, but of your will. That means they have different wills. And Jesus is requesting the Father. That means Jesus is not God and he's asking God of something. Jesus actually says in John 5 that uh I can that I can do nothing of my own will, but only the one who sent me. It's very clear that it's not like God just manifested in the flesh because Jesus really doesn't know the answer of "Why have you forsaken me?" and his will is different. His mind is different. Jesus doesn't know the time of the end. Mark 13:32. And that's why I implore you to help me. I understand the Christologies. I implore you to explain to me how the doctrine of the Trinity is not idolatry. If you state that Jesus was God and his humanity did not diminish from his divinity...
I would say that just for the the period of time that he was on earth, he, he was one with the Father, but yet he, he was had the limitations of being a human being.
Did those limitations interfere with his divinity? There were Christians who said this, that these ideas were expressed by Christians, and they were thrown out of court out of complete heresy by like from Cyril of Alexandria. I mean, these were all condemned in the Council of Ephesus. This idea that there were two different minds, the mind of a human and the mind of divine. What you're expressing, first, you expressed a modalism, a Sabellianism, which is complete heresy both in Catholic and Protestant theology. And that there are two separate minds is also a complete heresy in Trinitarian theology. And what I would like you, what I'd like to persuade you of is that the doctrine of the Trinity really is impossible to explain. You're, I believe, a good faith actor. You really believe, and therefore these questions should be very meaningful to you because if you're wrong about this and you worship Jesus, God, and he's not God, you would concede that it's idolatry, right? So I would just say that if you read the Christian Bible, it's very clear that whoever wrote these books didn't think that Jesus and the Father were equal. They were of one purpose or one agency, for sure. "I and the Father are one," but they weren't of the same substance. There are things that Jesus didn't know. No Trinitarian believes that Jesus' humanity deprived him of his divinity. And so that's why I'm pressing you with this question. Is that a fair question, Judy?
Yes. But could, could you, would it be fair to say that Jesus and God are in a different state now? I mean, the, the unity of the Trinity is now, but that really wasn't my question. And like, go ahead, we can continue...
explaining how it's dark to somebody, you have to go beyond logic. There, there's a logic that has to supersede it.
I agree with you. Just one point. That part I agree with you, Judy. I do agree that if you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, the orthodox (lowercase o) doctrine Trinity, you have to abandon logic. We are on the same. Uh, I agree with you. It's completely illogical. And then you can believe anything. Then no religion could be dismissed.
Can I, I'd like to explain that. It, it's logic to a certain degree, but not. It, it, we have to already have the um preface that we don't know everything, but it's conceivable that things could could happen this way without going against truth. I mean, logic is truth. It doesn't break the rules of truth, and it would go into like to dissect it. It would take a lot of time, which I've done that in my mind. So, but that wasn't my question. Um...
But just follow. I I'll, you're here the whole show if you like. I just, I want to ask you this because I really want to plot this through with you. Do you believe based on the Hebrew Bible that it is vital to God that mankind, who is we are commanded to worship God in truth, that God wants us to understand his nature so that we can worship him properly? And improper worship is a very grave sin. So I would just submit to you that uh, the Bible clearly, the author of the Bible wants us to know the exact nature of God and not to worship him falsely. It's a grave sin. So it should be accessible to anyone, not just scholars and people with fancy titles, but anyone could understand. If God is one alone, there's no one else. That's easy. But what you're describing is um, you're right. It's illogical.
Well, I I'm not saying it's completely illogical. It's illogical that that God could breathe into the dust of the earth and we could become man. So if that's not, that's logical in my mind, although hard for some people to understand, but it's still logical. So I, if God is difficult to understand...
I don't know why is that difficult to understand? I think it's very easy to understand. Man is not God, and God is God. And it's, I mean, you have to believe in God, but I don't think any theist has a trouble that God blew into the nostrils of Adam and of clay and became man. I don't think any, what's there's no contradictions. The the secret things belong to the Lord, but that which has been revealed belongs to us and our children forever. We keep all the words of the Torah. I don't think that's the case at all. I think the Torah is very easy to understand, and the Torah was written for men, not angels.
Right? And I I agree with you. There cannot be a contradiction. The way I can explain it is it seemed like God was the only one that could do the job of what instead of animals being sacrificed and and providing redemption, he had to take the form of a man to accomplish the task at hand. And whatever that how that breaks down, he made a way. Now, that's the part that you don't agree on. I believe he made a way. And it may not appear logical, but in some ways, I have to say there's some blind spots. So, look, I I want to just say the the Daniel thing is what I wanted to bring up and how we're getting to the time of either, I mean, tribulation, maybe, you know, a rapture pre or after, but um, the Jewish, from what I understand, I don't know if this is taught in your um, you know, in in the synagogues, that the Jewish people, their age, the age uh when Jacob married Rachel was 84 years old, and it's going to be 84. They're going to be 84 in 2032 since 1948, anyway. So there's seven years between now and then, and there is a time of Jacob's trouble. So I just, I just want to get everything straight and make sure that if there's a way of escape, we're all addressing it. I know you have, you might think this is crazy talk, but there is a breakdown of that too. And the Shroud of Turin. Now, it's, it's made all the rounds. Tucker Carlson, Piers Morgan, there's a lot more evidence. And I only bring that up because you said that's the best evidence. I don't think it's necessarily the best evidence, but it's worth mentioning that it's gaining more um uh credibility. And anyway, I just say all these thoughts. It may seem mishmash, but it's just something to think about. Um, I believe you may think I have blind spots. We all have blind spots.
I will say that I was convinced that the Shroud of Turin was a 14th-century forgery, as scientists have discovered, and it didn't appear before the 14th century. And it's been dated uh very clearly as a fake relic. However, what persuaded me to reconsider that was when Tucker Carlson, the great luminary of the conservative movement in the United States, uh declared that the Shroud of Turin was the authentic shroud of Jesus. So, given that Tucker Carlson is a man whom I adore, respect, and I consider him a a guiding light of wisdom, I am beginning to uh reconsider. And I think what would uh push me over the edge to fully embracing the notion that the Shroud of Turin was the Shroud of Jesus, if Candace Owens, another great luminary of the conservative movement, if she too would jump on board and bring these same characters on her show too, I think I might be persuaded. Anyways, thank you very much for joining me. If you enjoyed this program, please like and subscribe.
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