Transcription
I realize at the end of it all, I, there is no relationship between me and truth, right? And I, that's a tremendous shock to me. You follow? It's like you knocked me out, because all my million years of experiences go after that. Seek it. Search it. Pray for it. Struggle for it. [clears throat] Cry for it. I've done all that. And suddenly, you cannot have a relationship with that. You see? You understand? You're not feeling the same as I am. Huh? I've shed tears, left my family, everything for that, and that says, "Sorry." [clears throat] So what has happened to me? That's what you understand, sir. Do you understand what I'm saying? What has happened to the mind that has lived this way, done everything that man has done in search for that, and that says one morning, "You have no relationship with me." This is the greatest thing, right? I don't know if you follow what I mean. It is a tremendous shock to me. If you say that, is it to you? Think it. It was it. Don't. I'm asking you, is it a shock to discover that your brain and your mind, your knowledge has been [clears throat] all your examinations, all your studies, all the things that one has gathered through years and years, centuries, absolutely worthless. Either I go mad because I said, "My God, I've done all this for nothing. My control, my everything." And at the end of it, see, you understand what it does to me. You don't [snorts] see it.
Well, that means you know that if the whole thing goes, then it's no consequence, right? [clears throat] Because what you, what you have said, which is, you absolutely, you have no relationship. You have what you have done, not done, what you absolutely no value. You said you would say so. In a fundamental sense. Yes. It has relative value. Huh? It has only relative value within a certain framework, in which itself has no value. Thought has relative value. Fixed it there. But the framework in general has no value. That's right. What all, whatever you have done on earth has no meaning to the ground. Is that an idea or an actuality? You understand? Yeah. The idea being you've told me, and but I still go on. Good. But it is an actuality in the sense that it is that I've suddenly realized my futility of all that I have done. So I must be very careful. Concept that rather than I don't translate into a concept, an idea, but receive the full blow of "I don't know." [clears throat] Where are we?
This, see, you, for hundreds of years, probably man, since mankind existed, man has pursued this, what he calls God, or the ground. As an idea. As an idea for many people. It was very. I know for all people. I don't know. It must be. I don't know. But anyhow, then science came along. The scientific mind came along and also told that mind, "That's just an idea. That's just foolish." But no, no, no. The scientific mind says, "Through investigating matter, we will perhaps may come upon the ground." Right. Many feel that way. Yes. Many. Or some would even add, "Investigate the brain." You see? Yeah. Yes. May come upon. So after that's their purpose for investigating the mind, not to blast each other off. Guns and all they say, as a scientist, and we're talking good like him and so on. Good, not governmental scientist, but a good scientist says, "We are examining the matter, brain, and all that to find out there is something beyond all this." And many people, many scientists would say today, "Well, we have found the ground. The ground is empty. It's emptiness. It's an energy which is indifferent to man." Now, is that an idea or actuality to them, which affects their life, their blood, their mind, their their relationship with the world? But I think it's just an idea, essentially.
So then, I'm sorry, I've been through that. I was a scientist 10,000 years ago. No, no. I, you follow, I've been through all that. If it's merely your idea, I can, we can both play at that game. I can send the ball to you. It's in your court, and you can send it back to me. We can play that. But I, I'm finished with that kind of game.
All right. Because, uh, in general, what the people discover about matter does not seem to affect them deeply psychologically. No, of course not. Although you might think that if they saw the whole unity of the universe, they would act differently, but they don't. Oh, sorry, they wouldn't be. [laughter] Wouldn't be competing for Nobel Prize or. Yeah, I mean. [snorts] You could even say that it has affected some, some of their lives. You see, the whole communist idea is built on the idea, or what they think the fact, that whatever is, is just a material process which is essentially empty, and then man has to organize his life and has to organize society, uh, according to those dialectic principles. Change. I mean, it's. Dialectical principle is, uh, one opinion posing another opinion, out hoping out of opinions to find the truth. Well, there are different. I think we should leave this aside. There are different ways of looking at the different meanings of the word dialectic. But it also means, you know, to see reality as a flowing movement, you know, to not to fix things, not to see things fixed, but to see them in movement and interconnection. Now, uh, but I think that you could say that, uh, whatever way people managed to look at it after they saw this unity, it didn't fundamentally change. Their lives. Their life in Russia, the same structures of the mind hold as hold elsewhere, if not worse. And, uh, uh, wherever people have tried this, it has not actually fundamentally affected the way they feel and think and the way they live.
Well, you see, what, what I want to say is that, uh, the dismissal of, uh, the pursuit of the ground, the dismissal of the pursuit of the ground has not had, have any shocking effect on people. They, I mean, the whole, whole eastern, whole communist world. No, no. I'm not interested. I am the people which has given me a tremendous shock to discover the truth. Not idea. Discover all the churches, all the prayers, all the books have absolutely no meaning, except for they have a meaning so that we can build a better society and so on, so on. That is the. Well, if, if we could manage to bring this point to order, then we would have a great meaning to build a good society and. From there, I stop creating society. But as long as this disorder is at the center, we can't use that in the right way. Mhm. But I think that, uh, you know, there would be more to say that it, there's a great potential meaning in all that, but as long as we are, it does not affect this center, and that there's no sign that it has ever done so. You see what I, what I don't understand, Krishna G, is [clears throat] there are many people who, who have never in their life really pursued, uh, what you call the ground or the religion. They're not interested. Well, I'm, I'm not so sure, you know. I mean. Is he? What, what, how would you approach such a person? He's he's just. So I'm not interested in approaching any. I'm interested, not interested. I'm all the works I have done, good, everything I have done, the ground is valueless, and if I can drop all that, my mind is the ground, then from there I move. From there I create society. [snorts] Sorry.
Right. Well, yes. I think you could say that as long as you're looking for the ground somewhere by means of knowledge, then you're getting in the way. And, uh, so, sir, to come back to earth. Why has man done this? Done what? Accumulated knowledge apart from apart from the necessity of knowledge in certain areas. Why has this burden of knowledge has continued for so long? Well, I would think that it's because man has been, in one sense, man has been trying to produce a solid ground through knowledge. You see that knowledge has tried. Do you [clears throat] pardon? Knowledge has been trying to create a ground. Ah. That, that, that is one of the things that's happened. Which means what? It means illusion. In. Which means the saints, the philosophers have educated me to in knowledge, and through knowledge, find the ground. Well, not only to find, but in fact to even to create a ground by using knowledge. Yes. Yes. I understand that very well. But you, but X says that create a ground, and in, in a way, you see, before we have had in societies of mankind, we have had all these periods where mankind was caught in the craziest superstitions. And and their knowledge was able to found to do away with that. Oh, no. To some extent. It knowledge has only me from seeing truth. Sorry. It hasn't cleared me of my illusions. Knowledge may be illusion itself. It, that may be, but it has cleared up some illusions. Ah, I, I, I want to clear up all the illusions that I hold, not some. Okay. That's a different question. I got rid of my illusion about naturalism. I've got rid of the illusion about belief, about Christ, about this, about that. What at the end of it, I realize the my mind is is illusion. Sorry.
Let's go. See, I, to me, who have lived for a thousand years, to find it is absolutely worthless is something enormous. When you say you have lived for a thousand years or a million years, I mean, does that mean that, uh, in a sense, all the experience of mankind is present? Me is me. Now, that's. Do you feel that that? I do. And, and how do you feel? I mean, that's. It's, I feel it like, you know, how do you feel anything? No. I'll tell you. It is not sympathy or empathy. It is not. And that irrevocable to me. Yes. Well, perhaps if we could share that feeling. You see, that seems to be one of the steps that's missing because you've repeated that quite often as a very important part of the whole thing. Which means when you left somebody, you, there is no what? There is no mean. It's love. In the same way, when I say, "I am humanity," I am. It is so. It's like a. It's like that finger. It's not an idea. It's not a conclusion. It's it's it's part of, you know. It's part of me. Well, then you, I'd say it's a feeling that I have gone through all that. Right. All that you describe, all those millions. Because I know human beings have been through it. Yes. And any, if anybody has gone through it in some way, I have gone through it. They say those, if others have gone through it, then I also have gone through it. Of course, but one is not aware of it. No, we separate. If we admit that our brains are not my particular brain, but the brain that has evolved through millennia. Yes. Well, let me say why this doesn't communicate so easily. Everybody feels that his the content of his brain is in some way individual, that he hasn't gone through all that, that let's say somebody thousands of years ago went through science or philosophy. Yes. Now, how does that affect me? You see, that's not what's clear. Because I am caught in this self-centered, narrow little set. Yes. Which refuses to look beyond. Well, that, that is the thing which has been going on. Yes. But you come along and tell me, as a scientist, as a religious man, that your brain is the brain of mankind. Yes. And also knowledge is the knowledge of mankind. All knowledge is the knowledge of mankind. So that in some way, we, we have all knowledge. Wait. So other way. Of course. But not in detail, of course. So you tell me that, and I, and I can, I understand what you. Not I know, not knowing it is so, but I come to that only when I, when I've given up ordinary things like nationalities, you know. Yes. Well, we've given up the divisions. Yeah. And we can see that all that our experience of all mankind is in. I so. You go to the most primitive village in India, and you talk about, he'll tell you all about his troubles, his problems, his wife, lack of children, poverty, and you come here, it's exactly the same thing, only here they're in trousers, here kimono, or whatever it is. So, I mean, that's [snorts] for X, it is indisputable fact. It is so. And he says, "All right, at the end of all this million years, I suddenly show discover that it's." You see, sir, we don't accept it. We're too clever. We're soaked with disputations and arguments and knowledge. You know, we, we don't see a simple fact. We refuse to see it. And you, and X comes home and says, "See it. It's there." Pro. And immediate whole mystery of thought begins. So they say, "Be silent." So I practice silence. I've done that for thousand years. It has led nowhere. So there is only one thing. He said that doesn't that doesn't depress one. That's the beauty of it. I think it's like the phoenix, rising from the ashes, or fashions. [clears throat]
Well, in a way, it's freedom, rather to be free of all. Something totally new is born. Now, what you said before is that the mind is the is the ground. It is the unknown. The mind. Yeah. Yes. But not this mind. No, but I meant then, in that case, it's not the same mind. But so, see, if I've been through all that and come to a point, when I, I have to end all that. It is a new mind. Yes. [snorts] Well, that's clear. And the mind, all is its content, and the content is knowledge, and without knowledge, it's a new mind.