A Color Revolution in Nepal? — Kit Klarenberg -- ICSS 20251019

[Music] Welcome everyone to the ICSS Sunday Morning Marxist Forum. My name is Alan Miller and I'm a member of the program committee for ICSS Sunday morning sessions. We're based in Oakland, California in the San Francisco Bay Area, USA. Our weekly programs are online via Zoom every Sunday morning at 10:30 a.m. Pacific time. You can sign up at our website, icssmarks.org, to receive weekly email announcements for our Sunday sessions. We started doing this program in Oakland in 2006 and you can view videos of past presentations. Send us a message using our contact form and make a donation to support our programs on our website at sssmarks.org.

We're pleased today to have as our speaker British journalist Kit Clarenberg who writes for the Greyzone and Mintress News. Kit is also the co-host of Decline and Fall, an excellent weekly radio stream on YouTube and Rumble, co-hosted with Alexander McCay. For those of you who are not familiar with Kit's work, he is one of the finest anti-imperialist journalists working today. For his efforts, the British government has rewarded him by basically forcing him into exile, where rather than backing down, Kit regularly publishes outstanding pieces on the criminal modus operandi of AngloAmerican imperialism. Kit's Substack is at substack.com. kitclarenburgg atkit clickk kitclarenberg and decline and fall is at dnf.substack.com if somebody could drop those into the chat window that would be great.

Kit will be speaking to us today about recent developments in Nepal. So welcome Kit to Sunday Morning Marxist forum. We're really we're really happy to have you here.

>> Likewise. Thank you for that extremely kind introduction. It's uh more than I'm used to and more than I deserve, I think. But um yeah, no, very happy to uh to uh to to be appearing today. Thank you.

>> You can go ahead and get started.

>> Yeah, sure. So, okay. So, um yeah, I mean the topic of today is uh recent developments in uh Nepal. Um now, uh for uh viewers and listeners who haven't been um paying attention, um there's been a lot going on recently, you are forgiven. Um at the very start of September um uh mass riots uh kicked off in um in Catmandeue um the which is the capital of Nepal. Um and very quickly they led to um uh public and private buildings being set on fire. Um the residences of minister of government ministers including the uh the prime minister KP Sharma Ali um they were set ablaze. um officials were fed to safety via helicopter. On September 9th, um Sharma Ali resigned. Um and then within a matter of days, a interim uh leader was chosen via the rather unusual uh speeding of an online vote via Discord, which is this kind of online chat app, which is primarily used by gamers as far as I'm aware.

Now, um, uh, the after an initial burst of media interest, this has kind of fallen by the wayside. Um, and I think that it's actually it's important to keep an eye on this because um it a um I think it demonstrates that uh for all of the talk of the US uh empire like re kind of retrenching and refocusing its efforts on you domestic repression and um knocking uh the Latin America uh the you know America's uh backyard so to speak um into line. Um it shows that the Asia-Pacific uh Pacific region remains of intense interest geopolitically um to Washington. Um and I also think as well that um the developments that have occurred since um the media stopped paying attention um really speak to the fact that this was a color revolution. um that's not merely just in the form of the the people who've been um uh appointed to this interim government in in Nepal, but there have been a series of leaks. Um I await my investigation for the grrey zone on this being published. Um I wish it was out now, but sadly it isn't for a variety of reasons. Um yeah, there's been a series of leaked documents which show that um for years leading up to um the this kind of ex this supposedly spontaneous explosion of disscent by uh Jenzers in in Nepal um the a wing of the National Endowment for Democracy which is an avowed CIA front called the International Republican Institute which is linked to the Republican party in the US. um they were explicitly funding to the tune of of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars um a variety of efforts to create a nexus locally in Nepal of chaos agents specifically teaching them in protest in demonstration other forms of political action um in order to uh ferment unrest around issues of concern to Washington um and throughout these leaked files, repeated references made to the significance of Nepal from the uh yes the uh the the uh from the perspective of Washington's Asia spec Pacific strategy.

Now Nepal um uh for people who are you know unaware of the geography it is a kind of forbidding earthquakerprone mountainous region um sandwiched between China and India. Um now um given that China remains kind of p public enemy number one from the US empire's perspective and India has um shifted I think I think the the phrase that Trump used used was India has been lost to China and Russia um obvious within this wider geopolitical context creating a source of agitation and creating a viable uh puppet state in Nepal could not be more urgent. Right? There is a long-running uh wide-ranging effort to um encircle China with um yes um uh pliable puppet governments that uh uh say uh that ask how high whenever they're asked to jump um and are welcoming of US military installations. Um and I might add that um my um uh my colleague and I uh sorry my colleague Wyatt Reed and I um last year um we reported on leaked files which show that IRI, the International Republicans Institute um was engaged in almost identical efforts in Bangladesh to train youth activists to rise up against the government and that resulted in a coup. Um so we've seen again um a coup play out in Nepal.

Now um like I said that this initially elicited this flurry of media um attention and there was a lot of focus on the fact that um Nepalese youth are disaffected and disillusioned and they wanted they wanted change and they uh they wanted something different. Um I'm sure that's true um to an extent because uh US color revolutions always try and exploit and harness legitimate grievances um in order to uh stir interactionary fervor amongst the population. But invariably what replaces these ousted governments is um are administrations that are far worse. Um and we've seen this happen the world over for the past 25 years. Um the you know something that really perked my suspicion initially was the fact that there is this uh there is hitherto unknown NGO called Hammy Nepal which was set up um in 2015 to provide food, medical and other um aid to disadvantaged local communities. They they have no history of of political activism at all and yet they are at the forefront of this. They organize the protests. They set up a dedicated demonstration support hotline in the days um leading up to the protest that ousted the the elected government. They have uh been uh played an outsized role um in media coverage of this. Um and um they they also were the kind of uh guardians or set or gatekeepers of the installation of the interim government um uh which was yes as I say elected on September 12th via Discord. um you know this is a chat group that has 145,000 members um in and Nepal is a country that of 30 million people so it's not particularly democratic um uh but you know once that initial once the uh once the government fell that the media seemed to lose all interest in in happenings in Nepal since then the interim government has not only been filled with individuals who have extensive backgrounds with western found you know foundations that are usually intelligence cutouts um you know the world economic forum but also um uh Nepal's military which is a very po uh force within Nepalese society um they have been um in the words of Victoria Nuland kind of midwifing this thing and they have been really pushing um figures um who call for the restoration of Nepal's absolute monarchy um which you know should raise eyebrows and suspicions about you know what's really going on here.

Now, Hammy Nepal, if you go to their website, they openly list um uh uh brands that support us, which is, you know, it's quite strange for a a supposedly grassroots revolutionary movement to um to to be sponsored by um uh by uh Western corporations and um uh uh by Coca-Cola and the Israeli created messaging app Viber. But Hami Nepal openly um advertised this on their website. They also uh note that they receive support of an indeterminate nature. It must be stated um from uh the uh from students for a free Tibet which is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy. Um yes again um and a vowed CIA front. Um so yeah like I I I you know this should raise very obvious questions about um the actual forces behind this um uh in revolutionary upheaval in Nepal and who the in you know whose interests are ultimately being served um uh by a change of government there.

Now I mentioned subsequent leaks. Um there have been a flurry of um uh of uh of disclosures of sensitive documents which show as I say that the um the the NE was involved in in training vast armies of youth activists to um uh uh take to the streets and cause havoc um if the government if their government didn't act as required according to US policy objectives um which just, you know, lends further weight to the notion that this wasn't um a uh spontaneous grassroots upsurge of disscent, but was actually something far darker.

Go ahead. Uh you can just um hit whatever points you want. We will do Q&A later.

>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So, so I mean I you know I mean the the the documents themselves um and um yeah I for you afforded you some of them. They talk about creating a um uh emerging lead uh uh uh leader program um which is concerned with um uh identifying and grooming people who will be civil society leaders who will be um politically influential, encouraging them to create political parties, encouraging them to run for office. Um and this has been ongoing for you know a number of years before um uh the uh the overthrow of the government in September. um you know it you don't need to be a conspiracy theorist or um uh you know particularly paranoid to conclude that what happened in Nepal was a direct product of these um these programs and they yeah they openly talk about how um well we need to build momentum for youth activism and put pressure on Nepali political decision makers um uh so they're more responsive to the concerns um of the population. Um but um the same files ma made clear that what NE categorizes as the concerns of the population are quote unquote democratic reforms advocated by the US. Um so uh yeah the explicit purpose is to ensure that Nepal develops according to a well-honed script drawn up in Washington rather than um having anything to do with the um again um entirely legitimate concerns about you know corruption, lack of employment opportunities and other um you know very common issues that that blight countries in the the global south by design. um you know and uh the there are also you know very candid references to ensuring that um Nepalese youth leaders trained under these programs endorse and advocate US values quote unquote um and you can then be mobilized to launch advocacy campaigns on issues of US concern. So again this has absolutely nothing to do with people power or um you know public will or wishes. It's about creating a perfect client state um who uh which will you know do the US bidding you know as and when required. Um and uh yeah and I think that that you know as as I say um there there was quite some controversy when when all this erupted with there there were certain geopolitical analysts who were very quick to say well um you know people do have um uh young Nepalese citizens do have legitimate concerns and um you know this is the trigger for their um for you know for the upheaval. Now again, this might be true, but this is the exact same script we've seen over and over and over again play out um across the world. For a time, the US was entirely uh avert in advertising the fact that they sponsored um stuff like this. So in 2005, US Aid uh the now defunct or is it um uh intelligence front um run by Washington um it published a very glossy magazine called Democracy Rising which um offered very detailed um accounts of how the US um stirred uh anti-government um uh insuraction in Yugoslavia, Lebanon, uh uh Ukraine, Georgia, Kir um you know other countries um in the former kind of Soviet sphere or the former Yugoslavia in the early 2000s um and uh you know it's that that publication is rife with very illuminating quotes from participants where they say well we couldn't have done this without foreign help now that um and you can find mainstream media reports from the time that you know kind of openly promote the the US's central role in doing this Um you fast forward to today and that acknowledgement and admission is entirely lacking. Um I my smise is because there are ongoing crackdowns on NE's operations in you know enemy states like China and Russia and and Iran you know where NE is banned. Um I it's become it's kind of become unsayable that um the uh the NE and it and its you know various grantees are concerned with regime change as it was you know openly you know admitted before because now it's villains like Putin and Xi and others who are saying this. So I mean in a quite striking example of this paradigm shift, The Guardian in 2004, it published a very detailed investigation into how that year's orange revolution in Ukraine was whipped up by the US. It was the product of um US marketing and and propaganda strategies. Um and it it occurred according to a well-honed script um which has been you know deployed over and over again to re reverse the results of other countries elections. And then you fast forward to 2015 when Russia banned NE and the Guardian relied on a quote drawn from NE's own website to describe its operations. Um and you know then you have the Maidan coup which is you know and this is something I've written about for my website um you know is was unambiguously a NE operation. every individual and group at the maidan's forefront um was in receipt of NE or US aid funding. Many of uh the people leading these NOS's in the leadup to Maidan explicitly stated that their objective was to overthrow the government. In late 2013, you have then president of NE Carl Gershman write a an op-ed for the Washington Post in which he talks about how all of the sterling work his organization is doing to reduce Russia's influence in its near abroad, you know, the cluster of countries that once comprised the Soviet Union. And it talks about how he Gershman talked about how Ukraine was the grand prize um in terms of overthrowing the elected administration and in and installing a pliable government in its place. But the the very clear foreign role in Maidan has been systematically denied, obscured, dismissed as Russian disinformation or conspiracy theory or worse. So yeah there's there's quite an interesting shift shift on this and very obvious questions aren't being asked um by by mainstream journalists they are by independent journalists although you know their influence relative to the New York Times and the Washington Post is kind of minimal um you know so um yeah uh you what we have now is effectively in Nepal um a uh a government which an interim government although it's not clear whether they will actually hold elections in six months as they have promised to do um an interim government which has you know very questionable public support and legitimacy um the military attempting to push this new administration in a pro- monarchist direction was ruled until I think it was 1990 by an absolute monarchy which was deeply repressive and you know there zero civil society. There was zero dissent tolerated. So yeah, the the I mean it's the fact that that this has just kind of happened without anyone really noticing is is actually really quite quite shocking.

And another um thing to bear in mind about this as well is a key ignition point it seems for the um for the revolution in Nepal was Nepal the the Nepalese government's attempt to emulate China's internet sovereignty which is to say creating its own in social media and e-commerce structures and blocking certain foreign sites. which has led to, you know, the the in China the birth of homegrown internet platforms and resources which are very popular. and a the lessening of relevance of western social media platforms like Facebook and WhatsApp and and you know this kind of assort you know assorted soup of um uh resources which are basically just spying tools which in effect serve as wings of the US government. Now Nepal was really pushing for Nepal the now fallen Nepalese government was really pushing for its own internet so to speak and and with it with its own kind of firewall blocking noxious influence from abroad. In early September the the Nepalese government required foreign online platforms to register with the with the government to make them more legally accountable and ensure that taxes could be collected on revenues they generate globally, which is you know a very very serious problem that you know even countries in Western Europe really struggle to get Facebook and and and Snapchat and all these other platforms to actually, you know, pay money for the vast revenue they generate locally. And they they try and claim, well, we're not a local company. We're based in the US, so, you know, it's it's nothing to do with us. Sorry. And then, yeah, that that once this once this registration requirement was implemented, most foreign social media platforms refused to sign up for it, leading to their ban. Now this was the spark that ultimately toppled Nepal's government and a large number of NE and open society foundations that's you know George Soros's regime change arm a large number of organizations fund funded by these entities started making a stink about this. they claimed that it was a savage crackdown on freedom of expression and you know and and and access to the internet etc. For Hammy Nepal it was avowedly a tipping point which led to them scheduling a mass rally which is what ultimately dislodged the Nepalese government. And it must must be added as well that these protests at the start of September, they they quickly turned extremely violent and groups like Hammy Nepal were very quick to distance themselves from the fiery tumolds. And then yet their in their Discord server was bristling with you belligerent if not outright murderous messages in the preceding days with like some users openly talking about killing politicians and their children and claiming that they wanted access to machine guns and stated they they were going to burn everything which they actually did. So I mean that kind of repudiation it doesn't really wash like this was always going to be a kind of violent showdown. And the fact that the military has effectively signed off on this should also give us pause because in I mentioned in Bangladesh um you know last year we saw a similar dynamic play out where you had all of these student groups and youth activist movements who were the public face of the government's overthrow. And yet it was the military that was fundamental to the government's removal. And in the leadup to this this coup, the the head of Bangladesh Bangladesh's government a woman called Shik Hassina claimed that she'd been under intensive pressure to allow for the construction of a US military base in Bangladesh and that she had rejected this. which you know I mean seems like a fairly obvious trigger for why this unrest happened and I think it's the same in Nepal. The geopolitical circumstances are such that the US is very very very keen to create sources of agitation, distraction and unrest on China's borders because it can't fight a direct war with Beijing. So it relies on proxies. Now of course Nepal is rather famous for giving birth to the Girkas who are a have for centuries served as this elite unique fighting force within the British army and are often tasked with sensitive missions because they are renowned for brutality, reliability and you know getting the getting the job done by any any means necessary. I might add that the Girka the Girka Trust or is sorry the Girka welfare trust is a sponsor of Ham Nepal and this is an organization which provides financial assistance to Girka veterans their widows and families and it's financed by the British foreign office and ministry of defense now you know again it's not particularly a leap leap of imagination to suggest that well Nepal now could represent some kind of military threat no matter how negligible to China which could tie up Beijing in skirmishes over over borders you know of you know and all sorts of other matters. Again, a similar dynamic played out in Georgia following the 2003 Rose Revolution where once the US had installed their puppet makers to bliss Georgia became a very anti-Russian actor. It was a jumping off point for Chetchin resistance fighters. And in 2008, it effectively started a war with Russia which it lost very badly. and its US trained, armed uniformed and even fed military was routed in a matter of days in a in a Russian lightning strike. But you know I think that we've reached the point that even the mildest irritation it does serve US interests and it it furthers the wider aforementioned quote unquote Indo-Pacific strategy of the US.

Kit, would you like us to display those documents that were leaked?

>> Yes. Yes, please. Yeah, sure.

>> Okay, we can go ahead and do that.

>> Yeah. So, I mean if you if you look at IRIP Nepal sweep up proposal um which is Yeah. Um this is one of the the the leak files and I think it's it's quite revealing. Um it it talks about um the uh yes the necessity of strengthening youth political and civic participation as champions for democratic change. Um uh uh to building momentum for youth activism. Um putting pressure on the government. Um cultivating networks of youth activists and political leaders with skills, resources and platforms to build connections. So they can communicate their grievances publicly. um and train them to advocate concerns on political turmoil, government corruption, policym which is you know exactly the causes of the recent unrest in in Nepal. you know again coincidence or not it seems to fit very neatly into what the US has been trying to do in Nepal for a very long time.

Question can people see my screen right now? No. Okay. Something's going on. Let me try again.

>> One one second.

>> It says my is paused for some reason. Huh.

>> Okay.

>> I apologize. Let me uh keep going, kid. I'll fix it.

>> Yeah, sure. So I mean it's it's it's no it's no problem but it's like that yeah the the the IRI the international Republican Institute they they undertook to solicit applications to their emerging leaders academy from young participants in a range of different sectors including political parties, civil society and the media. um and um ensure that these people can hold their leaders to account. um and um indeed that it was expected that these alumni of of US training programs would go on to become leaders or prominent figures within local political parties and influence quote unquote national decisionm and you know training them to protest and use social media and other web-based tools quote unquote was a core part of the curriculum. um and um you know the again I think that we've seen this play out in in in you know fairly fairly graphic detail not only in Nepal but also in other key hotspots of geopolitical interest in the region like Indonesia where we've recently you've seen protests there where again there are wide ranging westernf funed operations to train youth activists and use social media and other platforms for organizing and and and and similar applications. So um uh and I mean the the the training provided to emerging leaders included you know public speaking, how to hone strategic messaging, mobilize resources, engage in advocacy campaigns and prepare them for quote unquote effective governance like you know I mean this is all very on the nose in terms of what they're trying to achieve there and why. um and um as I say um you know this comes against the backdrop of you know there are pretty much weekly um conferences by the US Congress and reports published by the state department on the need to contain China on the need to hinder its seemingly inexurable rise to to global hegeimon. um yeah that you know all of these different programs feed into one another and they have the same objective which is you know trying to maintain US dominance in an air in a region of the world where Washington's you know influence and and economic and political clout has been inexorably waning for a very very long time. you know So, uh, again, I mean, it's, you know, this is this is hard, this is this is hardly secret. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's it's it's there in black and white. Um, and, um, yeah, that the this is, it must be stressed that this is not restricted to um, the Asia Pacific region. This is happening all over the world. We've seen in Georgia multiple in the past you know few few months we've seen multiple color revolution attempts in order to get rid of their government for not towing a western line in all matters all the time. you know we have you there is you muttering of attemp attempt a attempted insurrection in in in Hungary which is is considered a bit of a wrecker in terms of the the EU's deranged plan to keep the the Ukraine proxy war grinding on. So you know this is an an ongo this is an ongoing story that's occurring you know all all over the world and it certainly you know h even if the media doesn't admit it anymore and indeed goes to great lengths to deny it it never ever went anywhere and there is a vast infrastructure internationally dedicated to creating shadow political structures who can be what's the word who can be stirred to ferment unrest if target governments step out of line at all. The I mean as bleak as this is, it does seem we've reached the point that open US sponsorship of these initiatives is a kiss of death to recipient organizations. Now in there is a 1991 Washington Post piece by the veteran hack David Ignatius where he talks about the era of overt operations is now upon us. And you know all of the the work that was previously done by the CIA funding political parties, funding opposition media, funding trade unions is now done by NE out in the open and therefore the flat potential quote unquote is zero. I think we've kind of come out the other end of that and we've reached the point where open US sponsorship of opposition groups abroad is a a pretty for a lot of people a sign that they have malign intentions and they are being used for malicious purposes by foreign forces. Yeah, it's no long it's no longer the case that the US can say, you know, yeah, like overthrow a government the the government of Yugoslavia and then boast about it openly. you know, those days are long behind us. you know, NE has removed its grant database from the web. It used to be a very detailed record of what money was being spent where and on what. And you could see the the specific groups that were in receipt of funding for anti-government activities that got deleted last summer without much fanfare. So, it's like the NE which was meant to be the CIA but, you know, out in the open has now gone into hiding to a large extent. Which is, you know, quite an interesting development. On the one hand, um, the fact that this is being hidden from us is disturbing. um and is it potentially makes NED more dangerous. At the same time, if were it not for the crusading work of independent journalists and researchers in exposing this stuff, they wouldn't have been forced underground. So I think that speaks to a certain weakness of um of the NE and other kind of you know pretty much you know undeniable intelligence cutouts in trying to influence world affairs. They still maintain power and they still they're still dangerous but they have been heavily compromised.

Kit, you know, the the work that you are doing on decline and fall and exposing this regime change method that imperialism has adopted is so important. I really want to urge everybody to check out especially the two-part series that you did on Yugoslavia, which was detailed and very eyeopening. You guys are drawing out just the common elements in each of these cases, whether it be in in Ukraine, in Nepal, etc. Back years ago, it was very clear what imperialism was up to when they were overthrew the Shaam and they they were they installed the Marcos regime and the Pinoet regime in, Chile. Can you briefly comment on what you see among people today why they're sort of getting this wrong and and the implications of that the fact that they just haven't gotten the lessons of what you're talking about?

>> Yeah, sure. So it's it's like I said is that I think that you know now that there is a there is a vast infrastructure dedicated to you know denying western involvement in unrest abroad and it's like I say there was a time when pretty much whenever there was a a protest getting serious media coverage anywhere in the world go on to the Ned grant database and ooh those same groups that are quoted in the media are there listed receiving money. But like you know at the at the same time there has been an enormous effort to propagandize people in what I would call the myth of you know nonviolent political action because you know there have been films if we go back to I mentioned the the coup in 2000 in Yugoslavia that got rid of Sloan Vlovich. Not only were there multiple mainstream media reports on how the US did this and why and you know all of you know offering very detailed accounts of all of the efforts involved in in take in taking him down. There was also a documentary made I think it's called I think it's called Bringing Down a Dictator and it's narrated by Charlie Sheen. And it's led a lot of people to believe that governments can be yeah like legitimately fel by you know a few hundred thousand or say a million people congregating in a public place. you know that's not reality. But a large number of people have been, you know, fed this very steady diet of, well, this is legitimate conser legitimate grievances. You know, this government's corrupt, this government is in bed with the wrong people. and that, you know, the the the majority the majority of of population support this. So I mean cutting through that's very very difficult because I mean I even mentioned this in my in my investigation on on Nepal my well my initial investigation on on Nepal which is you know here in lies the rub which is that yeah that there is no doubt that many Nepalese citizens were disillusioned with their government and sought change and yet color revolutions invariably exploit grass grassroots public content. to install governments that are considerably worse than those that preceded them. And there is a very interesting piece in Foreign Policy magazine which is this kind of imperial journal. It was published in in March 2013 where it admits that all of the color revolutions at the start of the 2000s. The results were absolutely disastrous. They resulted in the election of of leaders and governments who were very authoritarian. You know, serious change didn't arrive. people's livelihoods got worse, people's living conditions got worse. And yeah, they they were you know from every conceivable angle apart from say the profits of you know wealthy western oligarchs complete disaster you know but that myth of people power is a very potent one because I think I think it's like quite a nice thing to believe you know like all of you know all of these people from different backgrounds get together around a shared objective and then peacefully overthrow their despotic leaders. It's you know it's it's it's something that that that is like I say it's a it's a kind of a pleasing fiction that all of this all of this stuff is is grassroots and and sp spontaneous you know but the as I say I do think that that mask is starting to disintegrate to you to to a large extent and you know if say the Ned openly published on its website what it was doing in the pool. There would have been a lot less doubt about you know who and what was actually behind what went down but you know we are now deprived of that because as I say NE is overly exposed overly exposed at this point but you know I I mean thank you for your very kind comments about decline and fall. I think that one of the reasons that we have a, you know, small but growing and dedicated fan base is that we cut through all of this propaganda, you know, and offer people inconvenient truths and perspectives which are denied them and concealed from them in the mainstream. If you look at polls, never before has distrust of the mainstream media been higher. never before has distrust of established institutions particularly western governments and politicians been so high and I don't think that's reversible you know I don't think you can put the toothpaste back in the tube but the only issue is that due to a variety of factors including you know al algorithmic suppression and the the smears of counter disinformation quote unquote experts it people are still kind of shut off from those alternative perspectives. But you know it is possible to break through and I've been very heartened by some of the feedback we've received from people who have said you know we've had our eyes opened by your investigations and reporting. So I mean I think you know the the audience is there even if the answers say aren't automatically or easily accessible to them.

>> You know um I think a a real important change that took place was after the church committee in the 1970s exposed the CIA. You know, back in those days, I I was a student at Berkeley and we were out in the streets fighting with the National Guard because of the the coup, you know, the coup against Iran, the the coup in Chile, etc. And it was very clear and if you today look at the quote unquote opposition, for example, the no kings demonstration yesterday in Oakland, there's an undercurrent, it's not open, of support for these activities. people had signs that said restore the cuts in USA ID. Can you comment briefly on the USAD's role in these color revolutions that you're talking about and why why are people supporting this?

>> Yeah, sure. So I mean I think that you I mean US aid is I mean I mean that that is an entire can of worms but I think that like the very use of the term aid in its name is like sufficiently misleading in terms of its like actual like activities because you know you can point to the fact that USA does do some good things. I mean it's like you know the law of averages like I mean you know Hitler was you know anti- vivbection opposed to smoking and really like dog really like dogs you know and it's like there is and there is a certain component of what USA does which is which was concerned with you know actually providing assistance to people in need. But I mean I think that you know in my neck of the woods if you look at if you look at Bosnia and Herzgavina that was a country which according to the terms of the Dayton agreement which ended the the horrific civil war in Bosnia in in November 1995 or coming up to its 30th anniversary in a in a few weeks time. Under the terms of that agreement very specifically NOS's funded by Soros and Ned and US A were moved in to Bosnia to fulfill the most basic functions of of government. And you know you have a situation now where NOS's are active in every conceivable sphere of public and even private life. you know, they build homes and repair sorry, they rebuild homes and build new ones. They provide counseling to rape survivors and traumatized veterans. They overseas school curriculums. They distribute food. They run community bridge building initiatives and promote, you know, religious tolerance and human rights. And it's like, you know, this is what the government did before the war and it's now been outsourced to you know, all of these all of these proxies. And you know, there is an enormous amount of corruption within that. There is an it creates enormous amount of problems in terms of people not knowing where to go to get assistance. Organizations themselves don't know like what to provide. But it's like yeah, there is, you know, US A did do some good things. But it was you know under the cover of aid that it conducted so much of its insidious activities and you know I've written a lot about the US about us a office of transition initiatives which you know was openly created in order to assist the quote unquote transition of countries to democracy which is to say facilitate regime change. And there are a number of examples, you know, that I've written about and you know, I mean, you could just find this in the in the public record of where OTI in the wake of a government falling, usually as a result of you know, NE Western sponsored anti-government activists. They have gone in and created a government from the ground up and they run its communications, they run its administration. that you know, they write the speeches of leaders and you know, and and all this other and and and on it's now you can't find it on the internet anymore but you know OTI's website explicitly stated that you know we exploit policy windows of opportunity for the US you know I mean it was you know openly spelled out you know what what it was doing and why and there are a number of a number of examples including in recent years of OTI such as in Sudan in the wake of the the 2019 coup there that they created this deeply corrupt deeply you know this savage interim administration which you know jailed dissenters banned opposition media and was you know you know corrupt to an absolutely obscene degree and yet you know then USA chief chief Samantha power, this kind of longtime warhawk is cheering Sudan's transition to democracy, you know, and it's like I think that there is an element of well, you know, we've kind of reached this this emperor's new clothes style dynamic where it's like well reality is whatever officials say even if it's completely untrue.

>> Yeah. you know and I mean to give you to give you a you know a a more recent example you know Muldova that is a country which is you know again heavily colonized um I mean it's this tiny scrap of land with a population about 3 million and you know the the I have reported on leaked recordings of Muldoven government officials and business people talking about how the country is a U EU US colony and you know Every Moldovven government ministry has dozens if not hundreds of Western advisers, you know, telling them what to do and not do and you know, you know, dictating their policy for them and stuff. And you know, um, you know, that they are entirely dependent on this infrastructure to exist. If it was removed tomorrow, they would collapse.

>> Okay. So, um, let's take a short break for announcements. And um uh we're going to have questions and comments from participants. For participants, if you want to ask a question or make a comment, please raise your hand by clicking on the reactions button, raise hand at the bottom of your Zoom window. Please keep your question short. We're already getting quite a few questions coming up. And um ask one question at a time to allow everyone to participate. Keep in mind that this is a comrade forum for political discussion. Please show respect to the other participants, the speaker and the moderator of today's session. Um, next week we have on Sunday morning Marxist forum. Our speaker will be California Humboldt County activist Rainer Sheay who will be speaking on how 21st century workers struggle for socialism has changed. This is going to be a very thoughtprovoking session. Uh you can check our website for future programs at icssmarks.org and also sign up for notifications where you'll receive announcements and a link to join the sessions. Uh before we go to the Q&A for people who have your hands raised, um like to get a couple of questions in that were raised on the chat during Kit's talk. So Sharon, if you would please just take a couple of them and ask them for to Kit.

>> We can start with those.

>> Thank you. Uh Kit. So, um, one person who's already asked a question has their hand up, so I'll I'll let him ask his question. But something else that's in the chat a couple of times is, do you have any thoughts on Brian Bertilik's work on Nepal and for example, who is behind regime change in Nepal and how to follow the money? Apparently that's on YouTube right now.

>> Yeah, sure. So, um I know Brian personally. Um I consider him a friend. Uh I have enormous amount of respect for him. I think that his analysis on analysis on this has been fantastic. Um I uh I I can find nothing to fault in what he said. Um you know, I I I think that he's actually uh much to his credit um you know, he put his neck on the line and and stated upfront when the the Nepalese government felt this is the US's work. Um and there was a lot of people very, as I mentioned, there were prominent geopolitical analysts who I I have respect for and I would say you should know better who were very quick to pour cold water on this on this prospect. But he's stayed on it. He's kept digging. He's shown the individual organizational institutional links between the people who are forming the interim government and you know, western organizations and entities and and such. So yeah, um I I I

I wholeheartedly agree, you know, like you know, follow the money. Um, it's, uh, you know, uh, it's that classic line from *All the President's Men*, and it still stands up today. Um, and it's, it's, as I say, you know, the NE removing its grant database was a deliberate effort to prevent people doing this. Um, and if powerful people don't want you to do something, it shows that that's what you should be doing.

Okay. So, there's one other, one other one, Alan. Um, any thoughts on what's going on in Madagascar?

Um, Madagascar. Um, I, it's not something I've been following particularly. Um, I know that there has been unrest there. Again, um, I think that what you've got to bear in mind is that this, this, um, what's happening there falls against a, um, a wider story of the West, particularly the French and the US and the British being on the run in Africa. Um, you know, and I think that Madagascar, because it's an island off, um, Africa, is actually a, probably a very good training ground for, um, uh, potential, quote unquote, revolutionaries to be helicoptered, um, into other parts of the continent. I mean, you've got to bear in mind, um, you know, that like Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, um, uh, and, um, you know, several other countries, they've booted out, en masse, public, uh, praise, um, foreign forces, uh, and influence from their territory, and this is growing across the, across the continent. Madagascar, um, it already, uh, not to the same extent as, um, uh, perhaps other, you know, overseas territories, but it is, um, it remains to an extent, um, you know, a British colony with a heavy British influence. And so again, it would be a very useful, uh, uh, beachhead for creating problems, particularly in the Horn of Africa, where again, you have, um, you know, in Som, in, uh, in Ethiopia and Somalia, you have, um, growing independence movements. Um, you know, uh, the, even if the objective is purely just creating chaos, um, this is something that, uh, uh, the, you know, the West is willing to do just for the sake of it. Um, so, um, you know, that would be, that, that would, that would be my, that would be my take. And I think that, you know, bear, bear in mind as well that, you know, uh, Madagascar's, uh, geographical adjacency to, um, parts of Africa that were firmly in the imperial camp until, you know, relatively recently, like, you know, Mozambique's only become, um, independent within the past kind of half century, you know, um, you know, and there were efforts throughout the 1980s, um, by, uh, the then apartheid South Africa, um, to, uh, independence movements, um, in places like Angola and Zambia and, and Mozambique. Um, so, yeah, the, the, again, the, the interest in Africa has not gone anywhere, particularly given that Chinese and Russian influence is growing there by the day.

Okay. So, um, first, I'd like to call on, uh, an, so, an G Garrison, if you would, um, please unmute and ask your question.

An >> Yeah, there you go. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like, sorry if I missed something. I'm curious about what you said about Sudan, what you meant there. Uh, the US has declared, issued a statement that the RSF is guilty of genocide in Sudan, but there's, I've also said that the other side is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. So what were you saying about that? I'm also curious what were you saying when you, you said just now that there were independence movements in Ethiopia and Somalia? Um, and then lastly, a brief a comment with yesterday's no kings rally. There was a color revolution theme that they tried to impose, um, by asking people to wear yellow in protests in Hong Kong, which happened, I think, years ago, and with eastern Ukraine with a yellow ribbon movement in eastern Ukraine. So go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, we've also seen the yellow ribbons about, uh, employed, um, in respect of the Israeli hostages, um, who've finally been, um, released. But yeah, I mean, you know, that you could, you, it should never be forgotten that these, these people are nothing if not, um, uh, unimaginative. Um, you know, the, the same strategies keep getting used over and over and over again. And, um, um, this is a point I actually made, I think, on the most recent *Decline and Fall* is when you create this kind of heaving, groaning infrastructure of people who are trained to do a particular thing, which is to say, overthrow governments using civil society, um, entities and actors. Um, they'll keep doing it because it's all they know how to do. Um, even if it's not effective, even if it's counterproductive, um, they'll just keep going. Um, and, you know, um, when they look at the, the drawing board, um, well, drawing on past, uh, successes is all they can cling on to. And it's like, I mean, you know, I, I, to bring this, to bring this full circle back to Nepal, um, the, uh, leaked files which I mentioned about, uh, NE youth training, they make a lot of reference to, um, these Nepalese protests in 2020, which were, uh, in response to the government's supposedly lackluster, uh, COVID response, which were called "Enough is Enough," and, um, uh, these were protests that got a lot of Western media coverage. The, uh, protesters were holding signs written in English, indicating that their audience wasn't, you know, local politicians or the population, but they talk over and over again about recreating this success, right? And it's just like, yeah, we need to do this again. We need to do this again. Um, you know, they have no fresh ideas whatsoever. And I think that they, um, you know, uh, trying to recreate or relive past glories is all they've got left at this point.

Okay. Okay. Uh, next, I wanted to ask Elazar to unmute yourself and ask your question, followed by Raj. So, Elazar, are you, uh, go ahead and unmute? We're, we're waiting for you.

Can you hear me now? >> Yeah, we can hear you. Yes. >> Yes. >> I have a simple question. Uh, I first of all, I appreciate the talk and the wide range beyond Nepal that you covered, but in the left, there's great confusion about what I call the US NATO imperious proxy, Ukraine proxy war against Russia. There's a whole section of the left that condemns Russia and calls it an unprovoked invasion. And they leave out the 2014 overthrow of the Yanukovych government, the Maidan massacre, which definitely the US was involved in and worked with neo-Nazis. I've got pictures of Biden shaking hands with Oleh Lyashko ahead of a neo-Nazi murder group. And so I would like your opinion on that. I view, I give critical support to non-imperialist but capitalist Russia's invasion of Ukraine. End of question.

Okay. Sure. Okay. Sure. So, I mean, I think that the, I think one of the issues, one of the issues, um, with, um, uh, the, the proxy war in Ukraine that a lot of people miss is this was pre-aged by design by a very, um, uh, uh, you know, a dedicated, um, uh, propaganda campaign to demonize Russia, um, as, uh, you know, just these, uh, the, you know, these backwards, dangerous savages who had it out for the West and were meddling in the affairs, um, you know, uh, rigging elections and, you know, hacking and all this other rubbish. Um, this was a dedicated British propaganda strategy, and it was explicitly intended to serve as a precursor for war. There is an organization I've written about a lot called the Institute for Statecraft. It's run by, um, MI6 and NATO veterans, and on their own website, in July 2014, they published an essay saying, "We need to diplomatically isolate Russia. We need to sanction Russia. We need to demonize them via propaganda. And this will lead to, uh, uh, armed conflict of the old-fashioned sort that Britain and the West can win." Okay. And so, like, cutting through this layer upon layer of demonization, which has been built up over so many years, is very difficult. And, you know, as someone who studied Russian politics under Richard Sakwa, who's regarded as the West's foremost expert on the subject, um, you know, when Maidan happened, and then you have Crimea and all these other events, I remember having these very heated discussions with people who had no idea what they were talking about, but were very, very, very certain that they knew what was going on, and they saw Putin as this kind of Hitler 2.0, uh, figure. Um, cutting through that, that, um, uh, matrix of, of, of negative propaganda about Russia and Russians is very difficult. Um, you know, and I, and although, you know, this said, um, even among people I, I know personally who are, who were, very pro-Ukraine and were very anti-Russian, um, those, uh, sentiments remain, but they're kind of shifting to the view that this was always unwinnable and that actually maybe the West did have something to do with provoking this, um, and, um, you know, that maybe we should just get out of this while we still can because of the risks of escalation and the risk of Ukraine being reduced to Kyiv and not very much else. Um, so again, I do have, I call it bloody-minded optimism, but, um, I can, I do see some, um, encouraging signs in that regard. But you've also got to bear in mind that, I mean, the mainstream left has also been terrible on Syria. It's been largely terrible on Israel and Palestine, um, for the most part, um, for a very long time. It's only select pockets of the left who've been consistently pro-Palestinian, um, uh, you know, over the, well, since, since Israel's creation. So, um, these things do take time, but I do think that sense will prevail, and I think particularly sense will prevail, um, when Russia pretty much inevitably wins on the battlefield and the West is left to, um, you know, uh, uh, count its losses, um, as it were, which is, you know, pretty major. I mean, all of the money and the energy and the material support, uh, uh, pumped into, uh, this proxy war, which is always going to end in Russian victory. Um, and, uh, you know, I, it's doing a s, a conducting any remotely serious analysis of how wrong people got it on this, um, I think it will lead to some degree of enlightenment, um, uh, amongst the converted, although I maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

Okay. Next is, uh, Raj, followed by Janet. So, Raj, please go ahead.

Thank you, Kit, for a very informative presentation. >> My pleasure. >> My question to you is, what do you find, because Nepal has a very old relationship with India culturally, in every which way, there's a lot of, uh, connection between Nepalese people and Indian, and Nepal today was ruled by a communist party in the lead. I think it was a coalition government which was overthrown by this, um, with which I think United India was uncomfortable, but they, they worked with them. So what did you find investigating the role of India in all this? And is it only about China, the United States? Because it's overthrown, I agree with you, Bangladesh and in Pakistan, they didn't have the color revolution, but they overthrew Imran Khan by, >> yes, >> so therefore they're of course interfered, interfered in Pakistan all the time through the military. Now, here, what, how do you see this impacting India and India-China relationship if you have looked into that? Thank you.

Yeah, sure. So, like I say, I think, I, I very much see this as, um, uh, this occurring as, in, inextricably linked to, uh, India's warming relations with China and the fact, I mean, we see this now where, um, the US still is, is desperately trying to claim that India has stopped importing Russian energy. Um, and Indian officials say this is just simply untrue. And it's like, India has, um, I mean, for all of the faults of Modi's government, I'm certainly not a, you know, supporter or advocate of, um, of his rule. But like, they have attempted to carve out their own path in international affairs, and this simply won't do. Which is why, again, like I said at the start, having this state wedged between, and like, I, I say the leaks make repeated reference to the fact that Nepal is quote unquote sandwiched between these great powers, and that's why it, we need to ensure that it follows a US line in all matters. So, yeah, this, this is very much about trying to undermine India. Um, India and Nepal have a long, very complicated relationship. I can't claim to be an expert in that. I, uh, they've not always been on good terms. Um, uh, and I do think that, you know, India does, um, because of geography, does maintain some degree of control over, uh, Nepal's economy, etc. Um, but again, the imp, the imposition of this new government could change that, and they could become more dependent on, um, the US economically, militarily, and politically, and become this, yes, source of immense irritation to both of its much larger neighbors. Um, one can only hope that India and China see eye to eye and see sense on this and, um, uh, band together to fight back against whatever's coming.

Thank you. >> My pleasure. >> Okay. Next is, uh, Janet, followed by Mike H. So, Janet, please go ahead.

Okay. Thank you, Alan, and thank you, Kit, for being here with us today and for >> all your great work. Um, going back to Nepal, would you talk about what its military looks like, the size, how it is funded and governed? Uh, and also are there any non-state actor armed resistance groups in Nepal? And if so, would you talk about them?

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, the, the, the Nepali armed forces, um, like I mentioned, they're a very powerful force within, um, Nepalese society, but they're also, um, uh, a very popular one as well, and they're kind of, they're one of the reasons that it seems that Nepalese citizens have been welcoming of what is effectively a violent coup is because the military signed off on it. And on September 9th, after Sharma Oli fled his residence, the military, um, met with protest leaders, leaders, they, they had a, you know, a friendly, uh, fruitful meeting, and they said, you know, "How can we help? Um, what do you see as the future of Nepal?" etc. Um, so, yeah, like they, but as I say, the fact of the matter is, is they have ultimately signed off on what is an, an, a, an illegitimate, violent coup. And also, they have tried to include monarchist elements in talks with Gen Z leaders since the very start of this. Um, and it must be, must be stressed as well, that there are, um, monarchist-linked figures who support Ham Nepal, um, which, as I say, is, you know, at the forefront of this. Um, there are armed groups in, um, in Nepal. Um, for the most part, they have historically supported one of, um, uh, Nepal's, uh, uh, established political parties. Um, there was a very interesting, um, uh, uh, there was a very interesting, um, uh, I believe it was the *New York Times* report in kind of mid-September where it stated that Nepalese, uh, of all extractions, move to reject a system they themselves had fought for decades to achieve, and they lack any clear sense of what comes next. That creates a massive vacuum which a lot of different forces could exploit, including established political parties who do often have paramilitary wings and are have actually, in a bitter irony, historically, uh, deployed youth activists as foot soldiers when the government of the day does something they don't like. Um, so again, it's a bit of a powder keg situation which I think that the military, for the time being, is kind of keeping the peace. Um, it might not be doing so particularly peacefully. Um, but, yeah, that they, they are a very, um, powerful, uh, uh, potent force within, within society. And I think that sadly, if it comes down to it and they, they, um, military chiefs say, "Well, we, we can't get any, um, uh, we can't, we can't make any traction, um, on, um, uh, discussions around, uh, the shape of future Nepal. Maybe we should just take power." Um, that could happen. Um, you know, like, I, there was a, a similar dynamic in, uh, Myanmar, that, you know, known as Burma, when it was part of the British Empire, where the military was doing its utmost for many years to try and keep the elected administration in power. When it was clear that the elected government had no legitimacy, they took over, and suddenly they become the bad guys, and they're the source of all of, of the violence and unrest in, uh, Myanmar, when actually they're just desperately trying to maintain some sense of order.

Okay. Next is Mike H, followed by Mark Wilson. So, Mike, if you would please unmute and ask your question.

Yeah, my question is about the Straw Hat Pirates Jolly Roger flag that keeps showing up in about 20 different countries, starting with Indonesia, Nepal, Madagascar, and many of the countries that the, uh, Russian Africa Corps is in, like Niger, Mali. It seems to be the common element. And I'm curious, it comes from the Japanese manga series *One Piece*. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that.

Um, I'm not familiar with that. I think that what I find more, um, concerning is, uh, the, um, the profusion of, uh, the, the clenched fist, um, logo, which was, um, used by OPO. Um, like, you see a lot of this. Uh, you just, if you search, uh, uh, OPO fist on Google Images, you can, I mean, this is a symbol which is used by a lot of, um, protest groups, including in Nepal. Again, um, as I said, in response to a previous question, um, I strongly suspect that the US Imperial Brain Trust is just out of ideas at this point, um, and they're like leaping on, um, you know, what, what, you know, popular memes, etc., or like, you know, what they think, um, would, would mean, you know, being down with the kids, um, as it were. I wouldn't necessarily attach greater significance to it than that.

Okay. U Mark Wilson, if you would please ask your question, followed by Richard Wright. Mark, please go ahead.

Yeah, I want to thank the library for all their great work, and I want to thank Kit for joining us. Um, I'm interested in your, uh, take on, uh, what I call total war or fifth-generation warfare. If you could give us a little update on how that's been wheeled against you personally. U and, um, I'm wondering about yesterday's Democratic Party organized protests in the United States, and I wonder if color revolution tactics aren't being used against us.

Well, okay. So, that's an interesting question. I mean, number one, I would say that like we, I mean, in respect to my own, my own experiences, um, I think that we've reached the point of, um, excuse me, I think that we, we've reached the point of, um, uh, brazen tyranny, um, in the, uh, in, in, in the Western world, where governments know that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and, you know, irrespective of the backlash, like there's not really going to be any, any, um, consequences for it. So, I mean, from my own, um, perspective, um, you know, I was detained under counterterrorism legislation in, um, uh, upon my return to my home city of London in May 2023. Um, and, uh, interrogated for many hours, digitally strip-searched. I had to hand over the PIN codes to my digital devices. Um, this caused quite a scandal, and I was shocked that, I mean, I was interviewed by *The Hill*, um, you know, of all, of all places. I mean, this was a story that that traveled around the world, um, and, you know, I had emails flooding in, um, from, you know, every continent expressing solidarity and sympathy with me, which meant an enormous amount, um, uh, you know, and, uh, I thought that the backlash from this might serve as some deterrent to British authorities doing the same. They've just kept doing it ever since. You know, my, uh, friends of mine, George Galloway and his wife, Steve Sweeney, Asa Winstanley, Craig Murray, um, uh, uh, Richie Medhurst, you know, all of these independent journalists have, David Miller, I might add as well, another friend of mine, you know, uh, dissident academics, journalists, uh, just pundits have been on the receiving end. And it is a form of warfare, and it does have a chilling effect. I think for a lot of people, and it, me, it, it serves as a deterrent for, you know, Paul and Cora, like it serves as a deterrent for other people doing this. Now, I mean, on the subject of color revolution tactics being employed, um, in the US, um, I've actually, again, written about this. There was, um, a really quite extraordinary, um, I believe it was *Time* magazine, *Time* magazine article in February 2021, where they published this very lengthy investigation into how Democratic Party activists, unions, anti-Trump Republicans, major US corporations, particularly Big Tech, they banded together to quote unquote fortify the 2020 presidential election and ensure the votes' proper outcome, come, which is to say Biden's, um, victory. Um, and, uh, the article also, coincidentally, noted that, on January 6th, um, uh, pro-Biden, um, activists, um, and, you know, left-wingers had been explicitly warned by the people who led this effort to fortify the election, um, to avoid the Capitol, to prove, to preserve safety and ensure they couldn't be blamed for any mayhem, um, which, uh, you know, so they, this, this *Time* piece, like, kind of outlines what we would consider a color revolution, um, in terms of the tactics employed, in terms of the, um, uh, the strategies, um, and, yeah, it's clear that they seem to have some kind of foreknowledge of the fact that what, what, uh, of what was coming on January 6th. So, um, yeah, I mean, you, you might call that a color revolution, um, if, you know, I, if you, if you wish. I think that the, what's very clear is techniques of repression, of subversion, of destabilization, which are honed abroad, they do come back home. And, you know, I, I mean, from my own experience, the British have some form, um, in terms of dragging innocent people in for questioning under, uh, vague, uh, baseless allegations of, of them being extremists. When they ran, uh, the empire, they did so in, I mean, in Northern Ireland for decades, they had a policy called internment without trial, where they would literally go to people's, the houses of Catholics residing in Northern Ireland and say, "Yeah, come with us." And these people would spend, at, at, in some cases, years in prison without charge, without trial, being tortured all along the way because they were suspected, often for no good reason, of working with Irish Republicans. Um, so, you know, it is no surprise that this stuff comes back home as their ability to do this overseas recedes.

Hey, uh, next is Richard, followed by James, and then Sharon, then we're going to wrap up. So, go ahead, Richard Wright, please go ahead.

Yeah, thank you for your presentation, Kit. Um, >> my >> uh, I, I, um, I have actually sort of three questions. >> Well, let's try to keep >> Well, they're quick. They're sort of quick. >> Okay. >> Uh, I was wondering one, if you could comment on the bag, um, uh, Trump trying to buy the Bagdhad air base. To the other thing, this is more of a comment. It seems to me that a lot of the color revolutions that take place are seem to be focused on the executive branch and not so much on the legislative or the other, the, the popular. But the real question I, I thought, uh, is, is in your presentation, you mentioned that you had gotten documents from the Institute of Republican Initiatives. I think, I think that's where it's called. Um, >> Yeah, the, the International Republican Institute. Yeah. >> Uh, oh, okay. I guess they, okay. In any case, uh, the N, the, I don't know how, how familiar the people here are with the NED. It started off as basically four, four chambers. I'll call them chambers. Uh, and I, and, and I was wondering if maybe you could go into a little bit of explaining to these people. And if you did any, if any of your documents came from like the Chamber of Commerce side of things or the, or the Democratic side of things. Uh, and the other thing is, is I've heard that they're starting to mix private money into the NED. So, uh, so if you would. Thank you.

Um, yeah, sure. So, I mean, I do, I, I, I mean, it's it's wrong to view, um, the, the blob, um, as it were, as a monolith. There's an enormous amount of overlap in this stuff where it's like, you, to give you an example, um, you know, the, the, the National Democratic Institute, which is the IRI's, um, counterpart wing of, uh, NE, it gets up to much the same, um, activities overseas, and that there's often, um, kind of jurisdictional arguments between the two over like whose responsibility is what. But I think that, I mean, you know, ultimately, the, you say to use an example from a prior investigation of mine into into Indonesia, um, these wings of NE are taking usually direct orders from the local US embassy, who in turn is probably getting orders from the White House, the State Department, uh, the US Chamber of Commerce, maybe the Federal Reserve, like, you know, every branch of government is is giving them direction. So in Indonesia, as I say, um, I reported on this for Mint Press in 2024. There was this like amazing excerpt in a leaked document where, leaked NE document, where representatives of the lo, of Indonesia's local NE chapter, they met with the US ambassador, who said, "Well, um, you know, we, um, in DC, are not happy about this new law that the Indonesian government has passed, which means that firms need, private companies need to prioritize, uh, creating jobs rather than profit-seeking." And the US ambassador said, "We are unhappy about the implications for the investment environment in Indonesia." Now, subsequent to this, the NE funded a wide variety of organizations and groups and individuals to, uh, protest this new legislation, and, you know, they burnt stuff down, um, you know, they were not peaceful in any way. So you kind of see how all of these disparate, seemingly disparate and separate entities all intersect. It's like, uh, I mean, Michael Parenti has a great line about, you know, the, the empire feeding off the republic. It's like, um, uh, decisions, um, and declarations made in DC, one way or another, they filter out to all of these, um, disparate, uh, uh, call them sat traps of empire overseas, and then locals end up doing their bidding.

Alan, you're muted. >> Sorry. Next is, uh, James, followed by Sharon. James, please go ahead.

Uh, first, I'd like to thank you. I regularly read you, Kit. So that's, uh, enjoy your, enjoy your articles. >> Thank you. >> Um, thank you. >> And, um, there's, and I missed much of your talk today. I'm sorry, but I have grandchildren. But, um, the, uh, the Alan, Alan Weinstein, wrote, you know, a lot of what we do today is done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA. So one question I have is, do you have a sense of how much of color revolution is actually run through NGOs like USA or NED and that kind of things, where where money can be funneled, and how much is still done in a, in a covert manner, you know, to, uh, to make all this work? Um, and then, uh, just one other quick thing. Earlier, you were asked about, uh, about Sudan and Ethiopia, but you kind of got off a little track. And if you could go back and just say something about, uh, about that too, but mostly I'm interested in this, the issue of, uh, how much is covert and how much is, uh, is still done covertly by the CIA.

Okay. Sure. So, I mean, I think that, I mean, in respect of your first question, um, the, the, the, I think the NED, they always provide like the, um, uh, the, the public face of, um, of a quote unquote color revolution. So they're the one, you know, they train the, uh, the youth activists who, um, are presented in the media as leading this, but, um, always there is, um, uh, something going on in the background that's usually done by the CIA. So, um, you know, for example, I mean, I mentioned the overthrow of, um, in, uh, October, October 5th, 2000. So that's, you, we're now two weeks past the 25th anniversary of that. Um, the, there is a very revealing *Washington Post*, um, uh, kind of postmortem on his overthrow that was published in December of of that year. Um, and it talks about how, you know, US aid, NE were all involved in this, and, you know, to the extent of buying, um, anti-losic activists thousands of cans of spray paint to encourage them to, to do graffiti with anti-losic graffiti. Um, the, uh, *Washington Post* noted that the CIA was simultaneously wreaking havoc locally, but nobody really knew what it was up to. Um, so I do think that it's kind of like a hand-in-glove aspect to this, that they, they operate together. One is the public face, one is the covert face, and we, you know, we may never know what precisely what the, uh, the CIA is up to, um, you know, behind the scenes. Um, so, you know, there's that, there's that aspect to it. I mean, in respect of Sudan and, um, and, uh, um, Ethiopia, I mean, my only point would be that the 2019 coup in, um, in Sudan was a very obvious example of how, um, US aid moved in and, uh, uh, exploited a quote unquote window of opportunity to install a puppet government that had no legitimacy, which was overthrown by actual people power after two years of being in office and being a complete disgrace. Um, in, um, uh, uh, in Ethiopia, you had the election, I believe it was in 2020, I might be wrong, of, it was like the very first, uh, Ethiopia's like first truly democratic government in, uh, in, in a very long time. Um, and they, uh, they're not without, they've certainly not without fault, but they have, um, uh, you know, done a lot of things to improve living standards locally, and, um, there has been, you know, enormous attempts to undermine them, um, via covert means, um, with the funding of the Tigray People's Liberation Front, which is this kind of, uh, extremist faction that, you know, leaves a trail of, of beheaded, uh, children and raped women behind them wherever they go. Um, but on the other h, on on the flip side of this as well, is that, um, you know, US aid was basically kicked out of Ethiopia after this government was elected, and Samantha Power, uh, again, then USAID chief, said, "There's no problem in Ethiopia that US boots on the ground can't solve." So I think this actually kind of ties in with your question and my wider answer is that like these things operate in tandem, even if it's not particularly obvious. It's like you have the civil society, the military, and the intelligence operations, and, you know, all factoring into one another. It doesn't always work, but.

Okay. Next is Sharon. Kit, I hope you don't mind, we're running a few minutes over if you absolutely fine. >> Got a couple of more questions here. Sharon, followed by Judith, and I think we're going to wrap it up. So, >> okay. >> Go ahead, Sharon.

Uh, thank you, Kit. Um, I, I want to thank the person who talked about the yellow color yesterday. I, I was in Berkeley, uh, near the University of California at a demonstration, and, um, there were a lot of people wearing yellow, and I didn't understand why. But some people had a banana symbol, and they said something about, "Is the US becoming a banana republic?" or something like that, which is absolutely stupid. But, um, in any case, um, I believe that it's very important for the left to look at how we talk about US imperialism and adventures abroad and financing coups and all, and all the rest that you've described, how we talk about that to, to, um, American, the American people, American working class. Because to some extent, historically speaking, um, what Lenin called the, um, labor aristocracy here has benefited in some, some ways from US, um, imperialist adventures. But that's less and less true now, if it is at all. And we need to be able to talk to people. It's not a moral question. It's how imperialism hurts people around the world, including us. And, um, the current situation in Washington is a good example. The, the shutdown of the government over the issue of, um, the huge cutbacks in support for healthcare, which is going to affect millions of people. The, and why do, why are they even doing that? Why are the Republicans, and the Trump regime, do even doing that? Well, the US debt is huge and getting bigger, and that's because of the enormous, disgusting, enormous expenditure on weaponry and and military, the military-industrial complex, which benefits from all this, um, intervention all over the place. And, and the proxy war in Ukraine is a good example, and aid to Israel is a good example. And, um, my experience >> If you could just go ahead and because we're running over there. >> My, my point only is that we on the left need to think about how we talk about US imperialism to ordinary people so that it's, it's not just a moral question.

Okay. Uh, Judith, if you want to go ahead and ask your question, you're unmuted. I'm sure we can hear you. Go ahead.

Okay. Thanks. All right. Uh, Kit, thank you. That was a wonderful presentation. >> My pleasure. >> Okay. So, I don't know about the economy of Nepal. Uh, what kind of industries do they have? Um, and, uh, what, uh, what kind of relationships does the academic and scientific community of Nepal have with China? And, um, also, the, um, the color revolutions in Ukraine, of, um, they, uh, there was an ideology of, of fascism that, that they used to, uh, turn the population against Russia. Is there any kind of background in Nepal of, of a fascism or a type of fascism in their past that they can use against China? Okay, that's all. Thank you.

Well, yeah, like I said, like Nepal for a very long time was run by an absolute, absolute monarchy. Um, and, and in, you know, shockingly, as with, pretty much every, uh, uh, absolute monarchy in the world, such as the Gulf States, um, this was created by the British, um, for the purposes of domestic repression. Um, so it's like, you know, um, uh, this, this monarchy lasted from the late 1700s till, um, 2008, although after 1990, it's its power started waning significantly. Um, you know, this is a revanchist, um, uh, repressive force, um, which could be stirred, um, by, you know, anti-Russian sentiment. And, you know, we mentioned the, the Hong Kong protests, um, you know, we saw a lot of the color re, the NE-sponsored color revolution protesters waving British and American flags, you know, begging for the return of, uh, of British rule to Hong Kong. Um, you know, um, it's very easy to stoke up false, uh, historical memories, historical grievances, um, uh, you know, amongst, amongst nationalists. It's something that the British and the Americans have been doing for a very long time. At the risk of, um, you know, a shameless plug of my own work, it's something that I've focused on a lot. A recent investigation of mine looks into how, um, the British and then the Americans, along with the British, sponsored, um, nationalists in the Baltic states, in Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, um, specifically for the purposes of undermining, um, uh, communist rule. So, um, you know, uh, the, the, the prospect is there, um, and, um, certainly that, yeah, there are, um, ve, uh, people who are very, very keen for the return of the absolute monarchy and have links to, um, armed groups and the military. So, um, this is something that is very dangerous. Um, it is a, as I say, it is a, a p, a veritable powder keg. Um, I think China seems to be playing it very safe for the time being. They have recognized the new government. They say they want to work with the new government. Um, but equally, I think that, um, the, the long-standing, uh, position of Beijing of non-interference in other countries' affairs, um, we've reached the point that, this is untenable now because their adversaries, um, and their openly avowed, stated adversaries do not play the same game. Um, you know, they are very much up for interference in other countries' affairs. They see it as their key performance indicator, meddling in other, in other countries, um, and, and dictating how other countries govern themselves. So, um, yeah, we, we, we shall see. Um, uh, like I say, this is rather, this is a story that's rather dropped off the radar, but it's worth keeping an eye on because, um, the present geopolitical situation, I think, um, is a pressure cooker waiting to burst, um, on many fronts. Um, uh, so, yeah, we shall see.

Um, >> Okay. >> Alan, before we close, Kit, could you put your contact information in the chat? Several people have asked for it. Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Um, it's time for us to wrap up. I want to thank Kit for an excellent presentation, excellent session. The questions >> Absolute pleasure. >> The questions were very good, and the answers were were great. Uh, Kit, I think you deserve multiple Pulitzer Prizes, but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. In the meantime, I would urge everybody to go to Decline and Fall, go to his Substack, sign up. This is the best journalism that's going on on the internet today, and don't miss out on it and support it. Um, also want to encourage everybody to come back next week to hear a discussion on, uh, 21st-century struggle for socialism, worker struggle for socialism with Rainer Shea, and to go to our website at icssmarks.org, or sign up for, uh, notifications, make a donation to support our work. And, um, with that, we're going to stop the, um, recording. And >> If I, if I, if I may, if I may interject, um, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure. Um, very sweet of you to say that I deserve multiple Pulitzer Prizes, but in the spirit of Groucho Marx, um, I wouldn't be want to want to be part of a club that would have me as a member. So, um, no, like, take care, guys. Thank you so much. Have a lovely day. >> Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. [Music] [Music]