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This property in AS is condition is worth $100,000. This guy owns 33% of it. And then you go, okay, I can offer I don't know a percentage of that. Do you work off percentage or you work? >> $500 for the ownership. I bet you I can find a deal if I was if I was either going to be killed or find a deal within a week within one mile of this office in this situation, I bet you I could find it.
>> How do you find it?
>> So, first thing you do is go to the deed records. Well, a couple places. Go to the docket search that shows court records in your county. Go to the deed records and then the appraisal district.
>> What What is the docket search? Where do I find that?
>> Shows lawsuits. If you Google search Marcopia County Docket, >> yeah, >> there'll be a website that you can get a login to or sometimes you don't even need one and it shows all the lawsuits. Me and you sue each other, there'd be a record in there. I could search by your name, my name, other lawyer names, dates, things like that.
>> This is all online >> free >> around the entire country >> usually.
>> Yeah, almost all c some small counties don't have it, but you should see those counties anyway. Sure. All the big ones have it and they're sophisticated and they're good.
>> So what do I Google?
>> So you go to for example here it would be Maricopia County docket search. It might be civil docket or district docket but something like that.
>> Okay.
>> Or you can Google search Maricopia >> Maricopa >> Maricopa Maricopa County Court. Call them okay and say what is the website to your docket search. You need the docket search.
>> What is a docket?
>> A docket is a list of all the lawsuits.
>> Oh, got it. Okay. So, you see all the lawsuits. Now, what?
>> Now, you're looking for disputes about real estate, possibly partitions, creditor lawsuits.
>> What What do you mean look for? Like, do I You search dispute by real estate.
>> Here's a No, here's a very simp. So, you can search by type of lawsuit. Sometimes it can be real estate. Sometimes it can be partition. Sometimes it can be creditor claims. It's a type. You don't want a divorce. You have you can open it up and see the different types of search different types >> because when I go to those searches it's got 80 different words that I don't know the definition to.
>> I'll tell you a simple one. Here's the most basic one and probably one of the better ones.
>> Go to tax lawsuit. There's always tax lawsuits in nearly everywhere.
>> Go there.
>> So in the docket I go tax >> lawsuit >> and then I look for those.
>> Filter a date range. Last five years.
>> Last five years. Okay. Y >> and then filter it by recently filed.
>> Okay.
>> In that case, I'd probably go to the top. I don't want to go to the bottom because those are slow and it's been a long time since they've gotten service. I want to go to the top because when those lawsuits are filed, the owners who are being sued for delinquent taxes get a notice.
>> Who's suing them?
>> Counties. So, the tax maropa maricopa county tax. You're almost getting there. Maricopa.
>> Maricopa. Y'all's county. That [laughter] place.
>> They If you don't pay your property taxes, them and the stakeholders are going to sue you. So, whoever your property taxes go to, that's who's suing you for the tax collection.
>> Got it.
>> If you don't pay, they're going to foreclose.
>> Yep.
>> That's the risk of loss.
>> So, when you get those lawsuits, you basically can look at the defendants and see who all is being sued. So, if it's you and your sister, y'all's names are going to be on there. Yeah. Sometimes your addresses will be on there in the service. So I don't want to call they might be delinquent a year or two. I try not to do that. I want there to be a lawsuit filed and service you have been executed because think about the first time you get a lawsuit sent to you. Process server comes and hands it to you. Mr. Daniels, you're being sued. You have 21 days to respond or you will lose is a serious matter. You've been served and walks off. What happened right after that? Tell me about what happened to you. It happened to all of us. Don't be embarrassed. What happened?
>> Well, I want to Yeah. I mean, first it's horrible.
>> Second, you're like, "What is happening?" And then you read through this thing and you're like, "Okay." And then next you hire an attorney.
>> Oh, before you go to the attorney.
>> Yeah.
>> You get bubble guts.
>> Of course, >> you're scared. You think you're going to lose everything. You think they're going to take it all. You think you're going to be bankrupt. I'm like, "Oh my god, my wife and kids might leave me because I can't even put a house over their head. Like, I'm gonna lose my business." You just go to the bottom of the earth. It's a very emotional place. So, when you call someone about a n a situation like this, do you want to call them on a Tuesday afternoon, they're having the best day of their life or right after they've gone through that experience?
>> Yeah, sure. Right after >> if they haven't paid their taxes for two years, they kind of written it off. They don't really care as much anymore. It doesn't feel serious. After they've had that experience, it's now serious again.
>> Now, they're ready to talk.
>> Sure.
>> So, I want to call them soon after that notice has been delivered. I got their attention.
>> Is there any services that just update you whenever those things happen?
>> You know, we're developing one right now that we have one that's it pulls tax foreclosures and it's missing some pieces. So, we're trying to improve it right now. Yeah.
>> But other than that, I don't know anything.
>> You got to go and that's one of the barriers to entry. We teach people how to do research >> and go straight to that docket. Once you know how to do it, I can sit down in 10 minutes, pull a lead list of 25 properties. I only need 25 to get a deal. There will be a deal in 25.
>> Got it. And so, you said some of them come with addresses. What if they don't?
>> You got a skip trace >> based on what?
>> Their name and there will be a property that they're being sued for.
>> Right?
>> That's the two data points and a sibling. Between those three, I'll grab the name and go straight to Google. Dump in Google, see if I get an obituary, a parents obituary to collect information. Once I start and then also put their name in the tax office, the CAD to see if they have a home anywhere. Um, also put it in a skip trace program with the property that's associated with it and their name and sometimes a siblings name. Once you corroborate all that, you'll start to get enough information to know, ah, that too I'm trying to get a hold of for sure.
>> What skip trace uh service do you like?
>> It depends. There a bunch of different ones. Um, some of them are like credit level, you know.
>> What do you like? What do you use?
>> We're not really supposed to talk about that because we do marketing.
>> Ah, got it.
>> But so we use that pro a program like that for a long time and then we we contracted with a private investigator firm. Yeah. So now we have a different setup through that.
>> I'm telling you, private investigators in this business for to get gigantic deals.
>> I mean, it is it is a phenomenal resource. I've heard genealogologists, too.
>> Yep. So, we have one of those in our office.
>> You have a genealogologist in your office?
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> They spend like half their day in ancestry.com building out trees and people.
>> Get out of here.
>> What do you pay this person? Just out of curiosity.
>> So that guy's a partner.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> So like he started doing deals, became a genealogologist, became his skills, started going get certifications and training.
>> Sure.
>> Got it. And so >> so he has now trained people. The people that do the work aren't genealogologists. The people have been trained by him, but he's like the dude, >> right? So you find the contact information. You call them up and then what happens?
>> I've seen it go a lot of different ways. A lot of folks from the rest of the real estate business are like making these firm fair cash offers. you know, close quick with cash. Offer expires in a couple days. I don't do that. People that run skip trace programs on bulk list never get a hold of these people because their information doesn't show up on that list, >> right? >> We're just calling and saying, "Look, this is what we do. It looks like there's kind of a mess going on in this property. It's our type of deal. If you're interested in talking about it, we'd like to. We're pretty confident we can resolve it. We just don't know if it makes sense economically. But if you want to chat, we'd like to. You want to do that? You tell them this is what do you mean this is what we do?
>> Well, basically we say these kind of properties that have problems with them, ownership problems, title disputes, things like that, we resolve them.
>> Do you know that? Do you know that they have problems or you just are assuming it because they're behind on taxes? Like, you're not doing any discovery on why they're behind on taxes. You're just going straight, hey, listen, we specialize in in buying uh partial >> messes. I usually >> partial ownership.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> in the early days I would research to the end of the road and know everything and then I get someone they hang up on me like I wasted all that time.
>> Yeah.
>> But what I did find is after doing an annual review for multiple years in a row, almost every property we did was delinquent on taxes, had ownership disputes, title problems, and I realized that's a great simple place to go. So more than 50% of the time a tax delinquent property has ownership problems.
>> So that's just the conversation we go. And sometimes they might tell me, I'm the only owner's no title problems. It's very rare, but if it is, it's a simple situation.
>> Sure.
>> So, we identify that these are the problems we deal with. We'd like to talk about working it out. By the way, I we we were talking to Joey now. Is Joey Jenny's son, which would be your cousin, and when you have a little bit of corroborating information and you're polite and not invasive, he will open up.
>> Well, you just asked them if everything about their family or told them everything about their family. Is that from pulling it out of them and you're trying to figure it out and just match it up to the research you've already done or you just telling them, "I've done this research because this is what we do."
>> There are varying stages in those conversations. Right off the bat, we just try to get going. Now, sometimes in the tax lawsuit filing, if you have multiple generations, you'll have cousins and siblings and all that, that information will be in the document, >> but if you don't have that much information, you might just mention a sibling.
>> Sometimes for me, I would just mention there's a problem. I'd like to try to help figure it out. If you want to work with me, great. But it's a soft pitch for me, >> not hard. I don't even talk about the tax foreclosure. I don't even say you're going to lose it, any of that.
>> Yeah. So, you have right now you have 170 properties in inventory that you own some sort of you you have some sort of ownership interest in, >> right?
>> Got it. Whether that be 1%, whether that be 50% >> or that could be threequarters of 1%.
>> Right. We had to buy one time 67 which is twothirds of a percent of 1% from a man in Peru who is a expat retired like green beret type guy.
>> We had to find him down there with a private invest our private investigator here located a private investigator down there after we found who we thought was his wife on a nail salon on Facebook. Corroborated that. hired the guy down there within a day. They had a letter at his house.
>> Got it. So, you have all this interest in the property. How do you make actual active income from this?
>> So, because this sounds great for wealth building, this sounds great for your portfolio. Sounds great for all those things. Yeah.
>> But >> if people aren't selling >> Yeah. >> How do you And you're you're obviously building in what you're willing to offer for the percentage of ownership based on what you think. You know, it's got to be a deal for you, right? So, is it just every so often out of that 170, do you sell people >> and that's what you live off of? Like, what how do you live, Logan? We're here with Logan Fulmer here. [laughter] All right. By the way, absolutely incredible. You've been on the podcast a few times. I I love these conversations and I I I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions because when you talk it it goes over my head, which means it's going to go over a lot of people's heads. So, I want to get real nitty-gritty and um and just kind of really try to understand this so that people can go and take some action on this and and and you have an incredible mentorship or event or or something that goes on what a couple times a year?
>> Once a year. It's our full day training. We're actually doing it in Scottsdale January 31st.
>> Awesome. Yes.
>> So, you're doing it here? Yep.
>> So, absolutely incredible. Guys, this is something that I if you are like, I love real estate. I love real estate investing. I'm just I I love the the idea of of finding opportunities that nobody else is kind of figuring out. This is the guy. This is 100% the guy. I don't know anybody that's that's like you, at least personally. I mean, I'm sure there's some some old dudes with mustaches and toupes that are just, you know, crushing it and we'll never know about them >> because, you know, they're just, you know, living their life, but um you're you're you're the guy when when it comes to owning partial interest for finding these really doing deep research. I mean, you've got attorneys uh on your staff. You've got a genealogologist, >> homeboy that's a partner that you've known for like this is insane. The interesting part is this actually is for anybody who's trying to figure out how to make the real estate business better right now, right? And as we talk about some of this stuff, it sounds really complicated, but one of the things we talk about in our training all the time is our business was not built on the most complicated deals. My first 25 or 35 or 50 deals or something like that were relatively simple deals. It was a couple owners who just didn't get along and I could just handle them each in silos separately. Maybe there'd be a child support judgment. I'd need to either pay off or negotiate or something. It was 50% of our deals have less than three owners. 50% of our deals don't have mega complicated problems. They have ownership disputes. So, as long as you don't get those same two cats in a room, you're fine.
>> So, that's something I really need to communicate while we talk about some of these things. It can get really complicated because in the early days, I didn't know all this. I was one idiot living out of my working out of my living room in my apartment and I was finding properties on the east side of town that had tax delinquency and you could go in the tax roll and see I had multiple owners. Once I did one of them by mistake, I bought a bunch of lots and one of them was messed up and I had to fix it later on. I realized you could buy people individually and I thought these people are all fighting. Let me go offer 500 bucks a piece.
>> After buying 10 people shares at 500 bucks a piece, I'm in for five grand. I went sold and made a bunch of money. Mhm.
>> I'm like, "Holy, this is it. I'm about to make more than doctor lawyer money and I'm an idiot that came from the oil field. Let's do this. It's going to work."
>> So, how do you make active income from this, right? How do you how do you support a team of 25 people? How do you you know what I mean?
>> That's 10 years in.
>> Sure.
>> Year one it was me. And I got to the point where I could make 500 $700,000 a year in net income doing that.
>> Sure.
>> It was just me.
>> As you started to grow, we started to add people out. In the early days, I was doing what made sense and I and I didn't know what I didn't know. So, I didn't want to get involved in something super complicated. So, it was just a couple people. I just do two owners. I haven't solved in a month or so, go sell it on the listing service and I would have these turn faster than a flip house would.
>> Sure.
>> So, that's how my active income started to go.
>> Then I started getting into more complicated ones as I had more capital and more knowledge and started to like be willing to take more risks. Mhm.
>> Back in 2018 or 19, I remember looking at my pipeline. My average cash conversion cycle was 12 to 18 months. And thank goodness I had a lot of cash. I could pay bills, but it started to get to the point where a deal, two, three deals would close every month. And since the pipeline had been fed a year and a half ago, but I don't like running a business with that long cash conversion cycle. You can't move.
>> Do you think you have to with your business model? Do you have to go through that 12 month where you have enough reserves to build up that pipeline? Because I can't imagine you're these are these are fast turnarounds.
>> It depends on what you choose. It's kind of like when you went to go meet your wife, right? You said, "I want someone who's at least this nice, at least this pretty, at least this age." You chose all those. And when someone fell in that category, like, I'll take that.
>> Well, let's be honest. The women choose the men. [laughter] Let's be real clear.
>> But, you know, slick guy there, you chose to accept that, too. You could have accept another woman who chose you. You chose what you got. you got a good pick because you accepted that. Our deals are the same. So, you can look at I was telling someone on Zoom last night, they're like, "It's worth half a million dollars or 25 owners." I'm like, "No way. Don't do it. That's way too many owners." When you're looking at those deals early on, just pick stuff that's on the mortgage foreclosure list or the tax foreclosure list or multiple owners that when you you can call each of the owners with a couple interviews and they say, "We'd love to sell it, but I hate my cousin. I hate my brother. We don't get along." You got two or three owners. That's simple. Close that up in a month and go resell it. Mhm.
>> After I had that event where I started to realize cash conversion, risk, all that. We started to say, "Okay, we can't do this in much shorter time frame. I don't want those deals because there are so many out there. Just pick." Again, it's like women, there's so many out there. Pick the one you want, not the next one that falls in your lap. Same with the deals. Today, our conversion cycle is probably 90 days on average. Now, with that many deals, I have probably 30 that are like crazy, like worth millions of dollars. Bunch of owners. were in extremely legitig like big lawsuits but that's 10 years in lots of capital lots of experience and I'm willing to take that risk >> sure >> but when guys go through a coaching program I tell them don't do that do two or three deals a month that cost you 25,000 you resell them for 150 make yourself 100 grand net rip through those things do one or two a month build you some capital and some experience and you might choose to do that for the rest of your life or you might choose to work up the capital size and risk >> sure >> if you want Okay. So, okay, you go you you search the court dockets, you find the tax, you find the ones that are owned by multiple owners, you reach out to one or both or all of the owners. Uh you find one that wants to sell their I try to interview, let's say there's three of them. Sure. I try to interview them all. Sure. I'm not making an offer usually the first shot, right?
>> I just tell them, look, look, there's some problems. You want to work with me? We'll talk about it. I try to find out who they are. What's the problem? Are they the problem? Or is it the other person that's the problem? Who are they? Are they a plumber? Are they a doctor? Are they a house builder? Like, who am I dealing with? Right?
>> Because you deal with everybody differently. Survey it all. Then you step back after those three interviews and say, "Okay, they're all nice people. One of them just hates the other one because he was a step kid and the other two were the original kids and they were mad because their mom left my dad. This is an easy deal, dude. I'm gonna go send them all $5,000 cash offers tonight separately.
>> That's a that's a smooth simple way to do it.
>> So, do you find out first? Is it the first shot is hey, do you guys agree all agree to sell this? And then they go, I would sell it, but Susie wouldn't sell it and Bob wouldn't sell it, but I would sell it tomorrow.
>> I don't get that target. I don't say, do you all agree? Right.
>> It's very revealing. I ask, how come you haven't sold it? He'll tell me why they didn't sell it. He'll tell me if he wants to sell it. He'll tell me what about them. The questions I ask are very general. And if you're kind and polite, not a jerk.
>> Sure.
>> And they're the kind of person that's willing to talk, they start to lay it out for usually, >> right? So, you go them just personally. Why haven't you sold it?
>> Yeah. One at a time. During that conversation that I talked about introing earlier, I asked them, "What's going on? Why haven't you sold it? Looks like there are issues. Have you tried to fix them?" And that's when it starts to come out.
>> The story comes out.
>> The story. Yeah. And then if you go, okay, this property in ASIS condition is worth $100,000. This guy owns 33% of it. And then you go, okay, I can offer, >> I don't know, a percentage of that. Do you work off percentage or you >> $500?
>> $500 for the ownership.
>> Sometimes people say, I don't want it. I don't want to deal with my cousin. I'll give it to you. I say no. and he's you can't give me a gift deed because there's no consideration. I'm not your family member. I didn't take care of you. I didn't love you or whatever.
>> I'm paying you $500 because I want there to be consideration because when I get down the road and I'm about to make some money on this, I don't want you to come back and be like, "That was an avoidable transaction. There's no consideration." Oh, but you gave me a gift deed. Well, that wasn't a good gift deed. That was your workaround, you liar. Uhuh. Gifted it right.
>> Got it. And is there a purchase agreement? like what what paperwork is involved [clears throat] in this?
>> So, some folks, some old-timers, the mustachers that you talked about, those exist. Those are real. I stumbled across them here and there, >> but those guys say, "I'll go give them cash and give them a deed."
>> They can challenge that so many ways, >> right?
>> Hey guys, [snorts] it's Bren here. I want to interrupt real quick to tell you about working capital pros. I just got over $200,000 in business credit at 0% interest. It's incredible. And listen to this. I have not paid for first class travel or accommodations in over five years because of rewards points. This is a cheat code for every entrepreneur. Check out workingcapros.com. workingcapros.com. We'll also link it down below. It is a musthave for every entrepreneur.
>> Over 10 years, I've seen it all. I've been sued by sellers. I've been sued by sellers siblings. We have never had to go to trial yet. We have never lo I take that back. We lost two times out of hundreds of lawsuits. We pick right. We make the good decisions. But when we when we start to make these offers, I just want to go 500. We'll start there and then we'll go up. But on the documents, I'll use a contract. And it's a and the important part about that is most commission most promaggated contracts the terms don't survive the sale. So when the closing happens all those terms are done. Now your deed is what prevails right? Our contract says all provisions survive the closing. So any unique provisions we had in there continue on. We will also put them in the deed. We'll get a deed. Those are two documents. Then we also get a specific affidavit that's very clear and this was built after lots of litigation. The affidavit is a seller's acknowledgement and they have to initial every one of them and we record them reading it and signing it with a notary and they say my name is Johnny. I'm selling a fractional interest in this property. I know that I'm selling it for much less than it's worth. I had never have the ability to come back here anymore. I'm selling everything that I think I own in here. I've assigned all my rights and claims in this real estate to you. It's like they're quitting this thing as much as they can and they're signing and they're recording and that's our closing package because 98 99% of transactions are fine, but I've had sellers family get mad at them and they say, "Oh, I didn't know I was selling my lawn mower and I signed a contract for it." Next thing you know, they took my property. I've had people say that.
>> Sure.
>> And then they go get some like some lawyer pay them $400 to file a lawsuit or something else. So now when I get those calls, those claims, which is still very rare because we've become more direct, more transparent, and by them doing that event, they now are much less willing to lie because they know I got on camera.
>> Sure.
>> But I've had it. People call and say, "My sister said you stole her property and I'm calling a lawyer." I'm like, "Go for it." Lawyer sends us this demand letter and I send them this package with a memory card.
>> They're like, "Fuck."
>> And and you you've been sued hundreds of times.
>> No, I I've only been sued probably a dozen maybe.
>> I thought you said hundreds of lawsuits. I was like, "Oh my gosh."
>> So, as plaintiff, >> this sounds Yeah.
>> As a plaintiff, I've initiated hundreds.
>> I'm usually in probably 50 as plaintiff at all times.
>> Why?
>> Because you got to cure title defects. You've got to when you go through all this stuff, let's say there's an unreleased mortgage from Countrywide, you know, back in 2007, and you've tried everything to get that thing released or the title company to remove it from the company. You can't do You got to file quiet title suit and you have to notice Countrywide who's in business no longer, but you have to notice them and sometimes you have to notice the original borrower as a defendant. That could be one. When you have a dispute, someone doesn't want to sell partition.
>> Uh I actually got sued by a large multinational white shoe firm about nine months ago. We bought a $2 half million dollar property from an executive and the beneficiary sued. I bought it for $130,000. Beneficiary sued and said it was fraud, blah blah blah. None of it was we proved all otherwise. But yeah, stuff like that pops up. When you're doing low price properties, there's much lower risk. When you're talking about millions, people are much more willing to fight for it.
>> Sure.
>> Is that just a cost of doing business? Do you have to put a certain amount of your budget yearly into legal fees?
>> Oh, yeah. We're we have three attorneys in the office and separately we pay between 50 and 70 grand to make legal. But when you look at the units, the volume that I talked about >> 50 and $70,000 a month >> in legal.
>> Yeah. But break that up across a bunch of files, right?
>> Sure.
>> You might spend four grand on one file having some lawyer calls, some affidavits, and it's a maybe you make >> So you spend a million dollars a year >> at least >> in in attorneys. How much are you making?
>> Actually, we're about to get our financials out right now, >> right?
>> So I'm ready to see it. But I'll give you one of the companies has about a $20 million >> pipeline >> of income.
>> No, no, no. Just >> equity.
>> That's the value of the assets in that one company's >> inventory.
>> Right now, the basis is like four or five million. There's going to be another two to three million to get to >> completion, either lawsuits or completing ownerships. And then you're going to have some overhead and some other unknowns, some cleanout fees, some extra legal. We'll probably be I think it should take us about 12 months to get through that cycle of that inventory. Sometimes quick, sometimes slow. I bet on that 20 million of units. We probably net 10 million probably >> in cash or in in just the >> Yeah, that would be ordinary income is what it will end up being. Now remember, I don't own that company 100%.
>> Right.
>> I got a business partner.
>> But you don't have marketing costs, >> right? We have guys on the phone.
>> You just have legal costs.
>> We've got overhead. We got legal. We have some administrative. Yeah.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> Do you have a team of people that are just reaching out to all of these property owners that you're pulling from >> from the um court records?
>> Of the 25 people in our office, nine of them do that. So, we have a very flat organization. They are researchers, they're phone callers, they're closers, and then they coordinate with legal to get all the documents set, get it to the notaries, videos we talked about, and then they'll pass it off to one of the partners, and they'll deal with, okay, send it over to a realtor, send it to a cleanout crew, get it on the market. So, if you if you get ownership in a property, is there a way to if if the other owners don't want to sell it, is there a way to to sell it or do you have to wait until they're ready to sell it?
>> There's a couple ways to do that. The question, we don't like to be in a deal that they don't want to sell for a good reason. Like, if they live on the property and they don't want to sell, I'm not for >> No, no, it's a vacant property. The taxes aren't getting paid. It's just >> So, in that case, there's like a stepping I don't know. It' be like a process we go through. First, we call them, do you want to sell? I'm your new partner. Let's work this out. No. [snorts] F off.
>> How's that conversation?
>> Sometimes it goes well. Good. I hated my cousin. I'm down. That happens 80% of the time.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, wow.
>> 20% it's like f off. We can't get a hold of them. They go quiet.
>> So when that happens, we then have to start send them a notice and say, "Look, we're a co-enant of yours, a partner basically. We've got to resolve this. We'd like to keep it out of the court system, but if you won't work with us amicably, we're going to go to the judge, which means you have to file maybe a partition lawsuit. Sometimes there are debts against the property from other owners, you can buy those and foreclose. There's a lot of ways to start resolving that interest, >> but I prefer to keep making contact, send someone to their house.
>> I tell people like in the days when I was on the phone, >> look, we have to resolve this. I don't want it to be a problem. Please help me. I'm here hat in hand. I'm willing to pay you, but if you won't work with us and you're going to be completely unreasonable, I'll go to the judge. Your equity will fall apart and I will chase you to the end of the earth to get my pound of flesh. But I'm begging you here at your doorstep. I'm begging you, don't do that.
>> And they get to choose.
>> Yeah. And >> they don't have the right to threaten other people's equity. They don't. Not Not in law. Not the way the law is written. They don't >> to threaten it in what way?
>> They're threatening the equity. They're holding it hostage.
>> You mean if it forecloses or if there's some >> the partition, you ask the judge to sell it.
>> Yeah.
>> There are a lot of ways to get to that point where it can cause a sale. Now, another thing >> these people have to hate you.
>> Some of you'd be shocked. A very small amount of them do because many of them want to resolve these problems. They don't have the bandwidth.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I mean the I mean the people that are causing you issues.
>> There are a few of them that probably don't like me.
>> Have they ever threatened you physically?
>> Uh, one guy actually on the east side, I thought he was gonna try to fight me and that was the only time in my adult life that I ran. this. I'm out. It's not worth it. Him and his three brothers, they were jacked and they're drinking malt liquor. I'm out.
>> That's the first time you've ever ran as an adult?
>> As an as a grown man, as adult, I ran and I did not care how stupid I look. I'm out. Wasn't worth it. I knew where that was going.
>> Yeah. Otherwise, you know, I've had people say, "I'm gonna call my lawyer."
>> You don't junk. You don't exercise.
>> No, no, no. I do a lot of that. And that's the only time I had to run from another man [laughter] in fear of my life.
>> Got it. Got it. Uh, yeah.
>> I got four kids and a wife. That ain't worth it.
>> No. No. [laughter] Not at all. So, Got it. So, just for the average person, somebody could go out there and learn how to be able to do Not the average. Let's somebody starting out in it, they can learn how to um take your model and and do some of these smaller, less tricky deals and then kind of level up into some of the tougher deals once they get the experience, once they find the right attorney team, right? And then that's when you go in and you can really find some unbelievable deals.
>> Those are all resources that we have to make available to people that are in our circle basically. But when you're at wholesale and the average fee might be 15 to $20,000 these days, right?
>> You need several of those replace your active income, your job.
>> Yeah. Sure.
>> When you're doing a deal like this that can pay you 50 grand, 80 grand or more, 10020 grand, >> you need a lot fewer of those to replace your income.
>> Yeah.
>> I got retired firefighter did $340,000 deal his first deal. A housewife who was recently divorced, got into land flipping, it didn't work. Came did this. She has like three or four deals in her pipeline. all in the $100,000 net all within about four months.
>> I have a I have a solid group in my mentorship in the Rhino tribe that are just doing amazing things with the tax default list. Finding the deceased >> good list >> deceased owner, right? Deceased owner. Uh not not a very clear who the heir is. Using the genealogologist to find the heir, reaching out to them.
>> They're on the path.
>> Get right >> now. Here's the kicker. I hear people say that a lot of wholesalers. I had six owners and we did an affidavit dealership. We find them all. We went to the graveyard and [snorts] got a picture of their gravestone, their death date, and we pieced it all together. I'm like, "Cool. How much you make?" They're like, "35,000." How much was the property? 400 grand. I'm like, "You missed the golden opportunity. Where we don't miss is you didn't do the trade down. You're going to do all that work for that seller. Trade them down 20, 50, 200 grand. Read the room. Figure out how much they're willing to walk away from and trade them down that much." What do you mean trade them down?
>> Well, you you're making this agreement with them to usually you don't know all that stuff until you get into the deal or sometimes you sign the deal up and then title tells you the problems.
>> Yeah.
>> When that happens, I'm not going to do all the sellers work, make 25,000. I'll go back to him and explain >> this is what title said. I didn't say it. Title said it. Go look at the paperwork. These are the three problems. We got to round up your siblings. We got to get all this information. We got to go to a lawyer. One of your siblings have been missing for a while. We don't even know their birthday. We got to dig this up. And by the way, one of them may have a judgment or lean against him for some kind of eviction. I'm not doing all this work for you. This is your responsibility, but I'll go do it if you lower the price because this is going to be my full-time job for the next 60 days.
>> Sure.
>> So, I'm not paying you the 190. I'm paying you 130.
>> Yeah.
>> You want to do it?
>> Sometimes they say no.
>> And if you're willing to go do it for 30 grand, do it. I walk away.
>> Yeah.
>> I'll go to the next person because there are enough of them out there right now. There 170 of them that have said yes to us this year. Go to the next one. There's a lot of people say this.
>> There are so many mistakes that no one is doing this at all.
>> Right.
>> All >> I think the potential is gigantic.
>> People are asking me, "Why are you telling people this and making money on coaching when you're going to hurt your business?" I'm like, "Dude, are you kidding me?" Outside of those that inventory, I have a JV pipeline of about 50 to 60 deals at all times right now. Yeah. That are from referrals, from people calling in.
>> Yep.
>> Dude, [clears throat] come this way.
>> Yeah. There's there's way more opportunities than there are us, >> right? The other thing, too, is at our age, what are we going to work 10, 15, 20 more years, >> I don't think this is going to be saturated. And you know what? If it does after 15 years, I'm fine. I'll stop and do something. It'll be fine if you really >> Well, yeah, you have to go through. So, I mean, there's a lot of skills that you have to build to do this, right? Right. I mean, you talked about it early on about, you know, you're not just you the you're using your tone of voice to not be pushy, to be curious, to tell them what's going on, what kind of, you know, tell them what's what's happening with the property, but also, you know, asking them what they want to do with it. You know what I mean? That that is a huge skill that a lot of people don't have to make people feel comfortable enough speaking with a stranger about a property or a property that's in in uh a distressed situation or whatever that that really is a huge skill. I mean there's a big barrier to entry there. There really is >> 10 years in all those skills have been built. But >> like in our programs we're able to get people up and running within four months. Our coaching program is only four months.
>> Yeah. That's enough where even if somebody kind of sucks on the phone, we can still some of my acquisition guys kind of suck on the phone, but they have the right information, they have the right model, they know where they're going, and they still do pretty good.
>> Yeah.
>> So, the good news is you might not have to be quite as developed as me to do it. You can still do >> No, certainly not. But it's the reps.
>> Yeah, that's it.
>> It's the reps and the research and understanding, you know, who you should be talking to and what you should be saying to them. You still have to put in the work. That's what I'm saying. I mean, anybody that's going to, you know, learn from you, they still there's still a 12 month, 18 month, 24 month before things are really feeling like it's building and building and building. You can do some big deals, but to get into some big old deals.
>> You start getting like that, you need some real competency, >> right?
>> But like we see a lot of people in four, five, six months start to build a meaningful pipeline. Bunch of the new western guys in our city that have left.
>> Yeah. They go wholesale for a little while and have either leased from us in the office and bumped into us or kind of know us.
>> Yeah.
>> And have started doing this and four months, five months, they've got a pipeline built. They're making more money than they used to and they're hiring a person or two. Like it's becoming a real business in six months if they get the right train.
>> Yep. Got it. Yeah. I love it. And so you're you're you're you're going into the recorded docs. You're looking at the dockets. You're finding the right people. You're finding the heirs. You're finding the ones that want to uh uh sell partial ownership. Is there you start at 500. Some sometimes all of them just want to sell.
>> No, sometimes it's one person like >> Right. Sure.
>> I can't tell you how many are like this is a mess. I'm just done with it. Here's a good example. And this is hard for people to understand. They say, "Someone's selling you a $100,000 property for $5,000 or$500. My studio manager is a musician. He loves music with every threat of his being, every fiber of his being. I don't really care. I listen to music once a week. I don't care."
>> He can't understand why I don't love music. I don't understand why he gives a about music.
>> The same thing goes with money. Same thing goes with art. Same thing goes with fashion. Some people don't care. This is a monkey on their back. They inherited or they bought and they're done with it. They don't care. They want out.
>> And that's their right. And it's that absolutely okay. That's the kind of person I want to talk to. Just don't care.
>> And what's your average turnaround?
>> We're like 90 120 day range average.
>> And you're finding most of the people just they they didn't want to sell because they didn't want to deal with their relatives.
>> That's probably half of the deals.
>> Yeah.
>> Or you'd be shocked. People inherit something. They don't know what to do with it. They don't care about it. They're just get rid of this. I bought a $430,000 warehouse. It was a 3,500 foot warehouse on one acre on a main road. I paid 50,000. 30 in taxes, 20 to the seller. There's a tenant that hadn't paid rent in years. 40 dumpster loads of junk on it. I think I spent 10 or 15,000 cleaning the trash out painting it. He sold it for 430,000 bucks.
The guy just didn't give a. He was sick. He was old. He's like, "I'll let you have it for free." I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." And then his neighbor's like, "Make him give you 20 grand." I'm like, "I'll give him 20 grand." Yeah.
You ever run across when you get when when you untie all this or when you find the heirs that they don't want the money because they don't want it to screw up their government check? Yeah, that we have heard that. So, when that happens, sometimes what we'll have them do is there's a a waiver of rights and claims or a what's it form called? It's in the it's a statutory form. Oh my gosh, I'm going blank right now. It's a form.
>> Yeah. It's a basically a form.
>> Yeah.
>> Where they're like they're saying, "I don't want it. I want it to go to whoever else in my god idiot. I can't think of it." They basically are releasing.
>> Damn it. I have to know the word now.
>> I can't remember. Anyway, yeah,
>> it's a form where they basically say, "I don't want it anymore." And it their share divests equally among the other owners. So it doesn't if it title doesn't pass through.
>> What if they're the only heir and they're just like I'll just deed it to you.
>> Uh well that's tricky. I mean I don't know. I can't think of a time where I've specifically had a single person and that's happened. That might be a time where I would make an exception and say I guess I'll take it for $500
>> or 5,000 or 10,000. I some of the students that I have that that that they're like they just wanted like 10 grand. They just didn't want it to be, you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands because it would screw up their their income reporting for uh government assistance.
>> You know, as I think through this, we've had times like that. None of them are coming like right to mind, but like I would maybe say, you know what, do you have a daughter or a niece or a cousin or something who you love and want to give a gift to? Deed them the property and I'll buy it from them and let that gift go to them. Maybe that's a way to do it.
And you would give them just
>> I'd give the person who you wanted the gift to go to the money. Let them sell it to me maybe.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I don't know. I hadn't really thought about it exactly. I don't even know if that's the right way to do it actually.
>> Are you buying judgments and for closing?
>> We do. We had a fight with this lady who owned an HOA. This is She's ruthless. We bought a house in an HOA. She became the president and no one could get her out because of some weird bylaw things. She would not release. We were trying to pay her the $4,000 to get the HOA lease or release. She wouldn't release it. I was so mad. We had a buyer. It was on MLS. Finally, I was like, "You know what? All right. We're going to figure this out." So, we went and ran a judgment lean search. Found someone had sued her because she was doing an Airbnb arbitrage. Somehow messed up. Someone got $20,000 judgment against her. It was four years old. Bought it for $2,000. Sued her. And we found that she had a rent house. So, we asked the judge to sell her rent house to pay her judgment. And then when that happened, we went back to you and said, "Are you going to release this lean by the end of the day?" But I also told her, "I want five grand. Pay the attorneys back and you cause immediate."
>> Yeah. But are you buying judgments on that are attached to real estate?
>> We do that, too.
>> And then
>> that's not as common because it's hard to search. So when we're looking for the real estate, then we'll find the problem, then we'll solve it. A skill along the way will be there could be judgments or leans against it. But it's tricky because if that judgment or lean only encumbers one person's ownership, if you foreclose, it only forecloses on their ownership. So you need to have one that is either encumbers the entire property like a some kind of mortgage or possibly one that was agreed to by the prior owner maybe.
>> So if somebody Okay, let's say
>> but that is a strategy. If someone says, "I'm not selling to you." And they're like a total deadbeat, you can find judgments and leans against them,
>> but you're not targeting, you're not going, "Okay, um, here's a judgment. Does this person own real estate? Okay, let me talk to the who owns the judgment by the judgment for pennies on the dollar." And then start go and sue him for the judgment.
>> You know, that has happened in the past, but it's not we would stumble across it. That's not something we can look for because it's very hard to like systematically look
>> to look for judgments.
>> Look for judgments that are still good and don't have problems with them and the owner also owns real estate. It's like a it's a sequential process. We've talked about doing this and you know what we have works so well. I'm like, h maybe if this stops working.
>> Yeah, got it. Love it.
>> It's complicated.
>> When's your event again?
>> January 31st here in Scottsdale.
>> In Scott, how can people find out about it? They can go Logan Ful former Instagram, Facebook, Logan former.com, whatever. That link is everywhere on my stuff. But if they can't make it in person, we now have a virtual u it's a live stream model, so they can interact with us on stage, ask the questions. It's awesome. We now offered that this year.
>> Awesome.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, anybody out there who's this is what I explain to people. If you're out there and you're really interested in this or you're in real estate and you want to figure out how to pick up some skills, maybe your business is great, but you want to improve it or pick up a few of these deals a year or improve the deals you're doing, these strategies will for sure improve your wholesale and your house flipping soul source deals right there. And we care about people's time and money. So, when we ask them to come spend a day or a weekend with us, I really care that we give the same value or greater back. So, if somebody comes and they don't think it was worth every dollar, they can get me a Zoom meeting at next Monday, tell me to my face, and I'll give you every dollar back.
>> Yeah. What do you learn in it? Like, what is the agenda? Is it just you up there going, "Okay, check out this deal."
>> Like, how do you even teach this in a in a day class,
>> right? So, over 10 years, like we had to learn
>> or two days or whatever it is. Yeah.
>> We really had to learn over 10 years. And a lot of that time was spent learning more and doing less. Today, we understand, we can educate on. So, okay,
>> the way we set up our day, it's not like a real estate speaker event where like 10 different guys get pitch all this stuff.
>> We start with what is a lead. We explain exactly what a lead is. I've got a researcher that shows how to find it in the dockets um in the tax office, any of the places you need to go look for in the deed records. They explain it all the way. They show it to you on the board. Y then they say, "Okay, here's how to structure an offer to them, but you need to understand seller psychology." So, we have a separate guy. These are all people from our office except Bradley. He's not from our office and he's coming to speak for us.
>> Sure.
>> Other than him, it's our people. So, explain what's an offer look like? What's the seller psychology? How do you make a pitch to these people? Because the scripting is a lot different than the rest of the offers. So, we go through scripting. Um, after that, we go through deal structure, closing. Then, we have both of my attorneys that are like the top guys that do this for us. They go through and explain the difference between the laws across the states and a lot of curative work. So, they go through that model. Um, then we talk about how to finance and pay for this stuff. Then how you sell it. Then I've got a section about how to run a business from a small one person operator like I used to do all the way up to a 25 person shop like I now do. So, we've had people walk away that have some experience in real estate, get enough, and say, "Whoa." And they go do deals just like this. There's some people say, "I need a little bit more help. Maybe need some more training. We do it." But there's no one, if they're paying attention, will walk away and say, "I don't know what's going on. I'm confused." They should get through this and say, "All right, I got an idea about this. Is this for me or not?"
>> If you've listened or watched this entire podcast and you have no idea what Logan has talked about with any of this stuff, you need to be at this event. you need to be at this event because I mean I think that people understand the concept of it but the nuance and the actual implementation is what you're talking about with this event which I love which I I'm so happy that you were able to come into town and talk to me and some of the other great guys here locally um because I think it's I think it's going to really change a lot of people's lives if they take it seriously you know what I mean and and I think moving forward you know and this really started I want to say last year in 24 or really moving forward the next few years is not going to be about the quantity of the people that we talk about. It's going to be the quality of the people that we talk to and it's going to be about solving the bigger problems that other people either don't have the patience to solve or just uh don't don't go to your event or or or get into whatever else that you offer beyond that. Um because I think that this has been one of those old boy uh closed office attorney protected strategies for a really long time. Really long time. And it used to be that way with like everything in real estate.
>> Yeah.
>> And u getting out there sharing and it's changed.
>> So I'm excited about it. Yeah. because because I think that you're going to appeal to to people that um feel confident solving those bigger problems and and and and working with you know and also I think that you need to have some capital or at least the ability to raise some capital to be even in this strategy because if you're going to be I mean you don't need to have a ton right
>> if you're just buying partial ownership for 500 5,000 whatever that type of thing um but
>> um that you do have to be able to to you know invest some it's not like you're just assigning right away I That's right. You're absolutely. One of the things I tell people is people go borrow two three 400,000 to flip a house to make 80 grand. Yep.
>> You see the other way around. A lot of times we're spending 80 or 90 grand to make two three 400,000. So it's a much lower risk.
>> Sometimes you have to figure out how to get some capital. Some we partner with people like crazy. A lot of people are starting to do that now.
>> Yep.
>> The other thing I tell people, get to the event. For the same price as a pair of shoes, you can get this education and I promise you, you have a pair of your shoes that you bought in your closet from last year that you're ready to throw away. you don't care about.
>> Sure.
>> Don't let this happen again. Y
>> come get some education. Come meet some incredible people. You don't have to worry about an extra pair of shoes that you don't care about, but you've probably gotten a better opportunity.
>> Yep. Love it. Thanks for being here.
>> No doubt.
>> All right. Good to see you.
>> Likewise. All right.