Transcription
I'm Dr. Orion Terban, and this is Psyx: Better Living Through Psychology. The topic of today's short talk is her narcissistic ex. So it seems like in today's day and age, every woman has a narcissistic ex-boyfriend or a narcissistic ex-husband. And that's amazing, because the most recent epidemiological data I could find suggests that between 1 to 2% of Americans have NPD, or narcissistic personality disorder. And that number includes female narcissists. So it's pretty hard to imagine that 2% of the men have dated like 100% of the women. So what's going on here?
Certainly, part of the issue is that the popular imagination has significantly expanded the definition of narcissism in recent years. It's more commonly used for its, let's say, moral connotations than for its descriptive purposes. Narcissist has functionally become shorthand for an exploitative person who doesn't care about the feelings of others. That said, any woman who feels that she gave more than she received in return could potentially reframe that experience as exploitative. And in any relationship, one person always has to give more, and one person always has to take more. Like it's impossible for the giving and the taking to be perfectly and perpetually balanced. And in my conceptualization, it's the adorer who gives more and feels more, and the adored who takes more and feels less. This means that, given its widespread usage and connotation, a woman is much more likely to retroactively believe any man who occupied the role of the adored in a previous relationship to be a narcissist. But it would be wrong to simply take her description at face value and concur that the ex in question had a personality disorder, especially because he was only the adored by virtue of her adoration.
In any case, it's a pretty bad sign when a woman complains about having a narcissistic ex, for a number of reasons. First and foremost, if her name-calling is designed to give the impression that her previous relationship failed simply due to the malevolence of her ex, that, on some level, that woman is abating any responsibility for the dissolution of that relationship, which is very peculiar. It is very, very rare for any relationship problem to be entirely and exclusively one partner's fault. Like, who chose to enter into and remain in that relationship? Most likely, this narrative is a taste of things to come. Framing her past relationships in this light likely means that she is either an external—that is, someone who believes that all her internal states are dictated by external stimuli—or a victim—that is, someone who believes that she is the innocent prey of oppressive or predatory forces. Now, do predatory men exist? Absolutely, and they are scary, but they are not nearly as common as you might expect from listening to some of these stories. In any case, both possibilities are characterized by difficulties in assuming responsibility, tendencies toward categorical or black-or-white thinking, and poor insight and discernment. Not a great sign.
But here's another reason why this kind of talk is concerning in a woman. To appreciate its significance, we need to understand the relationship between narcissistic personalities and borderline personalities. According to some of the epidemiological research I've read, which has been born out by my clinical experience, narcissistic men are significantly more likely to have had a borderline mother compared with non-narcissistic men. And by the same token, borderline women are significantly more likely to have had a narcissistic father compared with non-borderline women. What does this mean? It means that, to some extent, the two disorders tend to create each other, which is what has led some researchers to postulate that the two disorders are really just gendered expressions of the same underlying dysfunction. In any case, let's explore why this might be the case. What would it be like to grow up with a borderline mother?
Borderlines are often emotionally volatile, with an unstable sense of self. They can be very manipulative, and they can transgress all kinds of boundaries when they are emotionally disequilibrated. Living with them can be chaotic, overwhelming, and crazy. So, in order to survive in this environment, what some children do, kind of as a last-ditch attempt at self-preservation, is cut off conscious access to their emotions, so they can't be used against them in parental manipulation, and turn off their empathy, so they don't get sucked into the drama that tends to circulate around these individuals. A softer-hearted child might end up consumed by the mother's emotionality and neediness. By taking certain parts of themselves offline, these children are able to survive in a very difficult emotional environment from which they can't escape and to potentially launch independent lives further down the line.
By the same token, let's examine what it might be like to grow up with a narcissistic father. Narcissists are often devoid of empathy and emotional warmth, among other things. This would make it very difficult to feel cared for, or loved, or valued as a child. The child's feelings would often be ignored, and their talents either quashed or directed toward the glorification of the parent. Living with them can be infuriating, neglectful, and invalidating. So, in order to survive in this environment, what some children do, kind of as a last-ditch effort at self-preservation, is significantly simplify their emotions, so they can no longer be ignored, and act out in a number of ways, so they won't be minimized into irrelevance. A better-behaved child might end up erased by the father's grandiose neglect. By making certain parts of themselves so loud and unavoidable, these children are able to survive in a very difficult emotional environment from which they can't escape and to potentially launch independent lives further down the line.
If you're interested in taking your understanding to the next level, I would encourage you to check out The Captain's Quarters, my members-only self-improvement community. Your monthly membership will get you access to a cadre of like-minded, supportive individuals, bimonthly group consultation sessions hosted by yours truly, and exclusive content that you won't find anywhere else. Click the link in the description for more information. Hope to see you aboard! Basically, both personality disorders are kind of like a suite of emotional survival strategies for specific family ecosystems. And this is why, from a clinical perspective, it's not a great look when women complain about their narcissistic exes. When they do that, they're basically confessing that there is an increased likelihood that they themselves are borderlines.
Okay, this takes a little bit to noodle this out, but let's explore this from a couple of different angles. Healthy, securely attached women do not end up in relationships with narcissistic men. This is because when such a woman dates a narcissist, she tends to feel that something is off. Maybe she struggles to make an emotional connection with the man, or she's put off by his grandiosity or arrogance, or she understands that suddenly getting everything she's ever dreamed of is an act that can't possibly be true. These women might stick around for a while, especially if the man is charming and successful, but they eventually understand that something doesn't feel right, and they bounce. They don't end up in 5-year relationships with a narcissist; they don't end up married to the narcissist for 20 years—at least not without assuming some accountability for the fact that they almost certainly were not healthy or securely attached when choosing to enter into and remain in said relationship. So a woman—a woman with narcissistic exes—is much more likely to be unhealthy or have attachment issues, like borderlines. And of course, if a woman is a borderline, it would also make it much more likely that her exes were narcissists. This is because healthy, securely attached men do not end up in relationships with borderline women. Maybe he finds himself on the other end of one of her emotional outbursts, or he is once again harshly judged and intentionally misunderstood, or he spends another weekend trying to piece her together after a breakdown. These men might stick around for a while, especially if the woman is attractive and him well, but they eventually understand that something doesn't feel right, and they bounce. Not my monkey, not my circus. They don't end up in 5-year relationships with the borderline; they don't end up married to the borderline for 20 years—at least not without assuming some accountability for the fact that they almost certainly were not healthy or securely attached when choosing to enter into and remain in said relationship. So a borderline woman is much more likely to have unhealthy exes with attachment issues, like narcissists. Healthy, secure men do not stay with borderline women, and healthy, secure women do not stay with narcissistic men.
What's more, because of the respective family ecosystems in which these disorders developed, we can understand borderline personality to be a way of dealing with narcissism, and narcissistic personality to be a way of dealing with borderline. Put two and two together, and you can infer that it's more likely that a narcissistic man will get involved with a borderline woman compared to a non-borderline woman, and it's more likely that a borderline woman will get involved with a narcissistic man compared to non-narcissistic men. Again, this is because a non-narcissistic man will run out of a relationship with a borderline because it would just be too chaotic and intense. However, a narcissistic man who is emotionally cut off and lacks empathy would be able to stay in the relationship far longer because he just wouldn't feel the emotional dynamic. By the same token, a non-borderline woman would run out of a relationship with a narcissist because it would just be too invalidating and neglectful. However, a borderline woman who is emotionally supercharged and behaviorally dysregulated would be able to stay in the relationship far longer because she would effortfully resist the emotional dynamic. It's like, who's going to win: the immovable object, the narcissist, or the irresistible force, the borderline? And the more immovable the object, the more irresistible the force, and vice versa.
This is important to remember because these personality types exist on a continuum. Women with a few borderline traits are more likely to stay in relationships with men with a few narcissistic traits, and vice versa. And women with a lot of borderline traits are more likely to stay in relationships with men with a lot of narcissistic traits, and vice versa. Now, one final word: it is hard to overstate how difficult and unstable relationships with folks with a personality disorder can be. They make soap operas look tame. And it's impossible to tell who has a personality disorder just by looking at them. So normal, secure people might date these types once and for a short period of time, but they certainly don't do it repeatedly over long periods of time. So it's an even bigger red flag if the woman complains about multiple narcissistic exes, or she admits that she stayed with a narcissistic ex for a significant amount of time, as this is an indirect way of revealing some of her own psychological patterns that might make it very difficult to relate to her.
What do you think? Does this fit with your own experience? Let me know in the comments below, and please send this episode to someone who you think might benefit from its message. I know you know someone—you're thinking about that person right now—who you want to send this to. It's word-of-mouth referrals like this that really help to make the channel grow. You want more content? This is what you can do: go to my website, sign up for my free weekly newsletter—I put out original content every week—or book a paid one-on-one consultation with me. There's also my book, *The Value of Others*; it's all about relationships. You can get it in ebook, audiobook, or paperback formats. And my member community, The Captain's Quarters, where I do bimonthly live group consultations and host Q&As with invited guests. The links to everything are in the description below. Check them out—lot of great value there! As always, I appreciate your support, and thank you for listening.