Transcription
I'm running on nothing but faith, 'cause things are too great that I want to accomplish. I'm hoping for 25 hours a day, but something good works out and I'm just like, "Dang, I think everything's going to be okay." Yeah, I'm like, "Dang." I think you might just know the way.
[Music]
>> Welcome to Dang.
>> Dang.
>> I'm Todd Bridges.
>> And I'm Betty Joe Bridges. And today we're joined by Joe Henderson, founder and CEO of Sierra Health and Wellness and the Elijah House Foundation. He's built one of the leading behavioral health networks in California and Nevada. And Joe is on a mission to change the way we treat addiction and mental health. We're so glad to have you with us today, Joe.
>> I'm blessed to be here. Thank you for the invite.
>> All right, so let's dig it right in. Let's see what, okay, what was the spark that made you want to decide that to, to, you know, to do this kind of work, addiction?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's actually a very easy question. Um, I've answered that question about a gazillion times, right? Because everyone wants to know. Um, I, I had, uh, I really found my way into the industry somewhat, and somewhat it's in the blood. So, my family's been running the Salvation Army men's program since, uh, early '80s.
>> Okay.
>> Um, and that, that has always been a part of our family structure. Me specifically, I never thought that I would, uh, ever get into it. I, uh, I had a business mind and that was my interest and that was my, my, my goals in life. And, uh, I was a director of operations at a nonprofit in B County up in Northern California.
>> Okay.
>> And, um, we had, we had a quasi service line where we just kind of, we just helped people, right? So, a lot of folks have addiction, mental health issues. So, we found ourselves needing to connect these people to programs. We...
>> Like an 800 number like that? Is that what you mean? Like when you...
>> Yeah. Yeah. We had resource lines. Uh, folks would come in, they would, uh, um, it was a faith-based program, so we did Bible studies with them and that sort of thing. And, you know, folks have mental health issues, they have addiction issues, we want to be able to help them. And so we started to look for resources in the area. And, um, we started to partner with people and place folks into treatment facilities that needed it.
>> And, uh, there was an individual and, uh, I'll just placehold his name as Mark. And he was, uh, he was someone that, you know, when you work with people on a one-to-one basis, you, you really create bonds with them, right?
>> And, um, you're there with them in their lows and in their highs. And this was no different. And, um, I hadn't seen Mark. He, he, last I heard from him, he was doing really well and had worked with him for a long time.
>> He, uh, comes back and he's a mess. And, um, at that time, I, I was running the day-to-day of the, uh, nonprofit. And I just said, "Mark, let's go. We're going to go to treatment, man. I'm going to bring you. I'm going to bring you in." And we drive to the facility that we had sent so many people to. And I guess none of us walked it.
>> We, we show up and, um, it was like, you know, New York City, right? Everyone's just coming and going. And we're two strangers in the middle of the lobby of a treatment facility and nobody is...
>> Nobody's trying to help you.
>> No, they're just walking back and forth. And...
>> Yeah.
>> I, uh, I finally waved somebody down.
>> And I said, "Hey, we're here to see if, you know, we can get my friend into treatment and want to know more about your program and what you guys can do." And, uh, someone says, "Okay, let me get the program director." And the program director comes out and, uh, shakes my hand. And, and I look down the hall and he's kind of walking me through what the, what the program looks like. And I see two people laying on blankets in the hallway. And I just naturally said, "What, what are those guys doing?" Thinking maybe they're cleaning the rooms or, or something like that. And he goes, "Oh, we have, uh, our beds are full right now. We don't have any openings for two more days." And these guys admitted today. And I said, "So you got them sleeping on the floor?" And, uh, I just turned around. We walked right out of there. And, uh, that was the moment that I knew I had to, if this was what was being offered to our community, I have to get involved 'cause this is crazy, right? So that's really what sparked it.
>> Wow. Well, and that's so interesting that your family was involved with the Salvation Army program all growing up. It was...
>> What was that like?
>> Yeah, it was, uh, it was really more, it, it was just part of the family. I mean, it was just part of what we did. We, we helped.
>> You get involved as a kid?
>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Not in the men's program specifically, but in the community-based services that, that the Salvation Army does in general.
>> I mean, Christmas program was a big time. I, we all know about the angel, angel tree tags.
>> That was a big seasonal project that we led in. And, you know, it's fantastic to be able to see all the families sign up and come through. And, you know, you set up the toys, you organize them, you get everyone's family's presents put together. So, that's just been, it's just been a part of our blood.
>> You know, that's so interesting 'cause when you said it was, you know, genetics in your blood, I was expecting to hear like an addiction recovery story in your blood 'cause that, you, you hear that a lot. But it was like, no, this was like the community service. I love that.
>> Yep.
>> I love that. Um, can you share a little bit more about your personal experience with addiction and recovery, watching people go, go through that process?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, me personally, I'm what folks call a normie. I don't, I don't have addiction issues specifically, but my family does. Uh, specifically, my sister, my older sister struggled with, um, you know, polyuse all of her life. And, um, um...
>> Poly, polyuse, I guess you mean like many different things?
>> Everything you can imagine. Anything that's available.
>> Yeah. I was, I was straight one drug only.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> I didn't want nothing else.
>> Right. Right. Yep.
>> The white stuff.
>> Which white stuff?
>> Oh, yeah. There is several different white things. Say that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah.
>> And none of them you should like lick your finger and like taste them.
>> No, that's step one. Yeah, that's step one. No.
>> Fentanyl now.
>> Oh my gosh, you're right. You could just like lay yourself out.
>> There was an officer. Yeah. Poor officer was like, found a fentanyl bag and he puffed up a little bit and he's got his nose and he went out.
>> They had to resuscitate him. I've seen, I've seen them. Yeah, I've seen them. It's crazy and it's on everything now.
>> Interrupted your story.
>> Oh, no, no, no, not at all. Not at all. Yeah. No, I mean, uh, that was that was a big thing. And of course, working in the field, you just work with a lot of that in the community. So, it was a no-brainer. Um, for, for me specifically, I, when that happened, when I decided, all right, I'm doing this. I had thought I was going to do it with the organization I had worked for. You know, we were a nonprofit. We ran off of, um, uh, donations. And I thought that was the dumbest idea. I, I call those types of nonprofits professional panhandlers.
>> Because you got to have a base. You have to have something that's running, turning the lights on, that's paying the bills. You can have donations for other big projects or other things like that, but you have to have something. Subscriptions. You have to have. And this is just the business mind thinking, right?
>> And I thought, well, this could be it. This could be the service line for this organization that, that, that covers, um, you know, the expense lines that we need. And so I spent 9 to 12 months, I can't remember, putting together a business plan for the board.
>> And, um, I had worked with a lot of colleagues. They all thought it was a terrific idea. We were involved, uh, anyway. And, uh, I, I got everything figured out from regulations to, you know, where are we going to get folks, uh, to treat, so on and so forth. And I presented it to the board and the board said, "Ah, we don't want this liability." And so I sat on that for...
>> Wow.
>> Three, four days. And I talked to a couple mentors, my pastor at the time.
>> And I just said, "What do you think?" And they said, "Do it. Do it." And so, um, I started with a $10,000 credit card and I opened up my first sober living.
>> And it was a 10-bed men's criminal justice program. And it started with the Elijah House Foundation. And within 8 months, I had three sober livings, approximately 70 beds, all contracted with criminal justice agencies, the jail, CDCR, California.
>> Because they were just needing beds.
>> Oh my gosh. And what happened is they walked in and we had some, what I felt was basic principles. And when they walked through, they were blown away. They were just blown away of how nice the facilities were, how nice the furniture was.
>> I remember one sergeant said, "I can't even believe the furniture matches. Like the beds are the same." And I'm thinking, "Wow, where's the benchmark here?"
>> Yeah. You know.
>> I ran one for five years.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It, it's a lot of work.
>> It is. It is.
>> And then I had a kid and then I had to stop because I didn't feel like babysitting anymore, basically.
>> That's what you're doing.
>> Yeah. Yep.
>> Absolutely. Well, tell us more about the Elijah House Foundation.
>> Yeah, so that's a, that's a nonprofit organization.
>> And it's really what Sierra Health and Wellness was born from.
>> So that was what you had started right there at the beginning with your, you know, your $10,000 credit card and that was what you were starting. Okay.
>> Yep. Absolutely. And the Elijah Foundation, or the Elijah House Foundation, it's the story of Elijah in the Bible.
>> Oh, wow.
>> And it's the story of true restoration. So that was the, the concept, uh, of, you know, the purpose of the organization. And...
>> Tell us that story from the Bible right now.
>> Oh, man, it's been so many years. We'd have to like open it up.
>> I'm putting you on the spot.
>> I'm trying to think too. I...
>> Elijah's story.
>> Yeah. Do you know the story?
>> I don't remember it either.
>> Oh, man.
>> Elijah, I hope I'm sitting on a podcast, so I hope I remember this correctly. But Elijah was, uh, the one individual that was translated.
>> And, um, and so never saw death. And so it's the true restoration of like the human spirit, the human mind. At least that's what I got out of it, right? And so I thought, okay, I've thought of 10,000 names. I think this is what I want to do. I want to truly change people's lives, completely restore families. That's what I want to be a part of. And so that took off. And, um, um, in 2019, I thought, man, I have to diversify because I don't know if you guys have ever worked with county contracts. Sometimes they don't pay you.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's that way with government, right? And so I thought we have to diversify service lines at the Elijah House and we need to start was a for-profit organization, Sierra Health and Wellness. And, um, with the basic principles of, if my kids need to go to treatment, I feel comfortable sending my boys there.
>> Yeah.
>> Or my daughter now. I have a new daughter, four-month-old. Yeah.
>> Um...
>> And that's everything we've done, you know.
>> Yeah. You always, I always had beds for county people too. I had beds for county people and beds for regular people.
>> In your...
>> Because, and then you, and then I had mine down to where, uh, it only took one person to actually run the whole place.
>> Yeah.
>> Which means that I only need one person, money from one person. That was it.
>> Yep.
>> And I can run the whole place.
>> Yep.
>> So then I can, and then I can give beds away people that really needed them at the time, you know.
>> Except for, you know, I, I think when I was, and how many, like the problem we had in the beginning was so many neighbors trying to get you out.
>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You have a lot of that. They don't want you in the neighborhood, but they can't get you out.
>> That's the thing.
>> Yep. Absolutely. Well, they automatically think, "Oh, these guys have sex offenders." You know, I mean, the worst of the worst.
>> Yeah.
>> And, uh, you're like, "These are just, you know, regular dudes with with addiction issues and and subsequent criminal, you know, activity, which is which is a symptom of addiction, right?" So, um, yeah, it's, it's pretty crazy.
>> I was fortunate to, like, I worked with a courthouse, too. A Santa Monica courthouse with them. So, I always got a lot of people in. If, and, um, the judge was always like, "Well, if Todd can't fix him, nobody can."
>> Right. Right. Right.
>> Well, when you set out to create Sierra, what did you want to do different from what you had seen?
>> Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to provide what folks in SoCal call luxury rehab,
>> And provide it to the regular people.
>> Oh, that's a good thing.
>> And, and that's what we've done.
>> Usually, it's very expensive for those places.
>> Oh, yeah. And they offer all of these ancillary services, but they charge additional dollars for them. We don't. Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, now, the downside to that is you don't have the luxury of having just six-bed facilities. You have to have 15-bed facilities or, you know, larger grounds in order to have the volume to be able to make the economics work, you know? But, but that's the only downside.
>> Yeah. So...
>> Yeah. One of the things I found interesting about addiction treatment as I've learned more in the space, Todd and I have a nonprofit that we're developing related to this, and so we've just been learning a lot about it. And I, I found it fascinating that there isn't, um, you know, the set standard of care that you would see for, like, say, if somebody has, you know, cancer or some other, uh, medical illness, that there's this prescribed process, like prescribed steps that, no matter where you go, you're going to get these same treatments.
>> And that that doesn't exist so much for, uh, for addiction recovery. And it was that idea that it was like developed outside of, you know, kind of the mainstream medicine in the beginning because it wasn't seen as...
>> Because, yeah, it took so long for them to realize that it is an actual addiction and it's an actual disease. It took so long for them to see that.
>> Yep. I mean, but it was just like when we used to go to, um, meetings, it was like, if, you know, between different, between AA and CA, you go to a meeting and it was like, some of these at AA did not want you to say you were, you know, "I'm an alcoholic addict." They didn't want to hear that. They were like,
>> "You're not..."
>> Cocaine Anonymous.
>> Oh, okay.
>> And then there's NA, Narcotic Anonymous.
>> Yep.
>> All those.
>> Yep.
>> But I found more, for me, I found more stability in AA.
>> Well, and even AA is not a medical...
>> No.
>> Um...
>> Absolutely not.
>> You know, I don't, yeah, it's, it's a...
>> It was what there was, right? Like...
>> Absolutely.
>> Can you speak to that a little bit more about like how that has evolved? And...
>> Yeah, and I'll tell you too, what controls kind of the differences in the standardized workflow for treatment facilities, it's, it's really the insurance companies, right?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And so, um, we have to provide a baseline amount of services that are referred to as evidence-based. Right? AA is not one. We could pro, we could offer AA in the program, but that is a supplemental course.
>> Um, it doesn't count towards what we're getting paid for by the insurance companies. And so they've, they've designed this in a way where you have to...
>> You have to provide what they deem is correct. You have to chart on people then, right?
>> What's that?
>> You have to chart on people.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's what I had to do.
>> And then you do the stuff that actually works, you know.
>> Yeah. Um, but no, 2008 was when, uh, the law was passed that addiction, mental health services, just in general, had to be looked at from the insurance company's perspective as a medical procedure.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Just the same. And that wasn't too long ago, you know.
>> No, that's, that's when I went through it. When I was, I, I was lucky where when I went through it,
>> It was through my, um, insurance from the business. So, they understood it.
>> Yeah.
>> They completely got...
>> That was way earlier.
>> But still, you were looked at, not from your, not from the business, but from the outside world, you were looked at as being the scum of the earth.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> They didn't realize he was like, you know, like people just, "I'm going to throw my whole life away." This is what I'm going to do. No one says that. It's not what you, you're setting out to do. It doesn't happen that way, you know.
>> It's a real, real medical condition. It is. Absolutely.
>> And that 2008 change was good, but what is, what has it brought? I feel like there's been bad that's brought along with it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what, what really hinders good service lines is, is the fact that the rates that providers are getting are so extremely low.
>> Yeah.
>> That we could not provide what is needed to treat the illness. Right. And, um, you're dealing with a ton of issues that are linked to mental health issues that all individually have to be treated. It takes time. We're dealing with the human mind. We're not dealing with a cut on your elbow, right?
>> And so that stuff takes time. It takes time to discover during treatment, both for the patient and the, you know, the provider.
>> And, uh, they don't, they don't see it that way, right? And so they want to pay as little as possible and as many amount of, you know, small amount of days as humanly possible.
>> And then you get some payers that might pay a little bit better. But then we talk about the, you know, the, the Medicare system in California.
>> I mean, the difference, what, what they're paying in probably the richer areas is around $400 a day compared to general for commercial insurance, which is around a thousand. Where does that difference come from?
>> Yeah.
>> Right. That's an enormous amount of money. That's, who's making that decision? And I always laugh at all of these bills that come out where they want to, they want to handle the homeless, especially in California where I live. They want to take care of the homeless.
>> So they, they pass these housing first actions. They spend billions of dollars, clean California, do all of these things. And all they're doing is providing a roof. And that, though that's important, that's not the issue.
>> Yeah. The issue that's not going to keep them from using drugs.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah. Because if you go down a skid row, it's crazy down there. You literally see, see, I've never taken you down there. You go down a skid row, there's people walking around with needles in their arms. It's, and police are like, "I ain't going in there." They don't want nothing to do with it. But it's, But the biggest problem that I have always seen with, with the whole addiction thing is that...
>> Yeah.
>> They're not treating what the sickness really is.
>> That's right. And it was like, in America, what I noticed it got really, really bad was as soon as they closed down all these mental institutions.
>> Yeah.
>> And they close these mental institutions down all over the United States. That's when the homeless, because a lot of them out there have, you know, mental issues really bad.
>> Yes.
>> You talk, you can't talk to them straight. You know, I remember one time, you know, I offered, you know, to give this guy some money and some food and he flipped me off. I was like, and he was digging through the trash. And I'm like,
>> So the, he obviously has a mental issue. But that's the biggest problem, you know, and we're not looking at that anymore.
>> Yep. Well, and also with bring, um, bringing insurance kind of into the mix with treatment, I think it also invited a lot of like the fraud and the...
>> Yes.
>> The bad players, bad actors that you see come into, because they're like, "Oh, now there's money here."
>> Patient brokering. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. There's, there's, there's a lot of bad actors. I mean, I, I, I remember, I mean, the heart of it started in Florida, right? And, and they want to, they want to advertise these luxury rehabs. And I've read stories of providers taking somebody off the street, paying them to come in,
>> Building their insurance, retaining that money, giving them heroin to relapse, and then giving them to their, you know, their sister program or, or whatever.
>> And, uh, it's, it's absolutely criminal, right?
>> Well, that's what happened out, I think out here. We, we were reading a thing about the, um, well, the reservation. We have a lot of, um, Native American population reservation. And they had, they have programs, uh, for, um, treatment, uh, through the reservation. And they, they were these white vans. They were going around just rounding people up and putting them in homes where they weren't getting any treatment at all and just,
>> Filling,
>> The program. They made something like 22 million or something like that.
>> That's crazy. Yeah.
>> Sad. You know, you know, to me, it should be helping the person first.
>> Yeah.
>> It's not about the money. And I think, I think the money comes if you're really helping people.
>> That's right. I think that's the problem that people...
>> Well, and that first step in 2008 of recognizing it as a medical condition was important, but it's like we're, we, we got this big gap here now to where, uh, the insurance isn't, uh, motivated to pay what they need to pay. There's all these bad actors and, uh, you know, that are just taking. There's so much fraud in the space too. So it's like, how do we, how do we move ahead? Do you have any ideas for that, Joe?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exposing it, right? I mean, the, the bottom line is, um, it is true, there are a lot of bad actors and they rip off the insurance companies.
>> And, um, um, because of that, they have this, this nature of trying to claw back money. And they'll come in, and I know perfectly good operators that are dealing with, uh, uh, uh, payers like Sigma and other payers that are that are coming in and like, describe like the mafia, you know, a shakedown of like, "Oh, we're, we're getting this money back." And it's, "Oh, you missed this note here, or you missed this note here, so it doesn't qualify for medical necessity." And therefore, we want our money back. It's like, "Well, wait a minute. No, no. I mean, we treated that patient, you know." And so that's the, that's the liability. The big thing is, is the disparity of like the ranges of pay and what is the appropriate rate to actually pay a provider in order for them to provide good services. How do we get that information to the insurance companies, you know?
>> Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing is, there's so many insurance companies that are, you know, just as bad as the people ripping them off, you know? They're just, they're private companies.
>> Yeah.
>> They don't want to pay people. They don't want to pay to help anybody.
>> Absolutely.
>> You know, they, Oh, you know, it's like, you know, it's like you have a, a car insurance. You know, you haven't had a car in 30 years and you get a wreck and finally get into an accident, you know, total your car and then they dump you.
>> That's right. That's right.
>> That's exactly what happened. I mean, like I told, like you were like, "Well, call your insurance company." Remember for the people that ran, somebody ran into our house in the, in the LA in a car. She's like, "Well, just call insurance." I'm like, "I'm not calling my insurance because I know what'll happen."
>> Yeah.
>> I'll get the money back and then all of a sudden I put out and then all of a sudden cancelled. Then it's going to go way up the next person I get. So, it's easier just to wait on the, you know, the other insurance company going to give me my money. So I don't have to deal with them at all.
>> Absolutely.
>> That's the sad part about it. And in rehab, I'm sure it's the same way. You know,
>> There's, there's a lot of companies that do help and a lot that, you know,
>> They don't want to pay for anything.
>> Yeah.
>> Even though you're putting all that money into it.
>> Yep. Absolutely.
>> So, we were talking about the problem of, um, of like a standard that of, "This is how you treat people." How did you establish that? How did you decide what you were going to do in Sierra?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, for us, we wanted to be able to, uh, while we had the person treat all of their illnesses.
>> Okay.
>> And, um, you know, addiction, you know, someone comes in, they're drinking for 20 years, why are they drinking for 20 years? And then because they're drinking for 20 years, they also have liver failure and they have all of this other stuff issues.
>> And, and you have to treat that. And it's part of the delay, too, because 2008 was when this kind of ball started getting rolling. That's not a lot of time for society to develop,
>> You know, get rid of that stigma, actually see it as a real medical, uh, procedure. And, um, and so for us, we, we went through and we said, "What, what are the things that we see with our patients?" Predominantly for us, 90% of our clients are alcohol use disorder.
>> And, um, today, with, with besides, you know, the Elijah House Foundation, we have probably privately owned one of the largest Northern California presence. We have about 120 beds.
>> And we have a mixture of detox residentials from...
>> Oh, wow.
>> From 16 beds to 30 beds. Um, and then we have three crisis residentials, which are just their primary mental health only facilities. So, these are individuals that, you know, they go to, you know, the acute psych center for a week or two weeks, and they get stepped down to a residential level, uh, psychiatric services.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. Detoxing from alcohol, if it's not done properly, people can die. I think that's what a lot of people don't realize that it's, it's really bad.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Do not detox from alcohol on your own.
>> No.
>> You know, just do not do it.
>> You, you can die from that.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. It's the most dangerous and it's the most available, socially accepted.
>> Exactly. You know, isn't that crazy?
>> It's wild. So...
>> Yeah.
>> Um, but anyway, we, we went through and we have, we have two sets of providers in our care. So, we have individuals that are, you know, psychiatrists or psych nurse practitioners. These are the individuals that specialize in the medication management.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Um, the psychiatric needs, of course, we have, you know,
>> The, the frontline workers, the licensed therapists, the psychologists, etc. But just from a medical provider side, we have that. And then we have the internal medicine providers.
>> That's correct.
>> And, and they see the individuals to treat their liver issue, right? Or to treat whatever needs to be treated. A lot of stuff,
>> They, you know, they're clean and sober, they feel confident, they have dental issues or whatever, and they've let that go for so long. And now that that confidence is back and, and they're feeling good about themselves, they want to clean up. They want to deal with all their health issues, their dental issues. And the more that we can provide in-house, the more dedicated that patient can be to treatment and the more successful our program is going to be. We don't want...
>> How much do you have per person?
>> Um, it depends on, on the site. We have, uh, staffing matrix for, uh, different locations.
>> Um, but realistically, on the inpatient side, you really want to have a therapist per, like, and it depends on the acuity, too. And that's the tough part. But between like six and 10 people.
>> That's cool.
>> You know, and, and for one therapist,
>> They're also working supplementary with the provider who's also seeing that person, the counselor,
>> Um, who's also providing the actual addiction medicine counseling, the case manager, etc. So,
>> Um,
>> It's, uh, it's a lot of work.
>> Yeah, it is a lot of work.
>> Yeah. And that's why I said when I had that kid, I couldn't do both,
>> Right?
>> And I couldn't help with my child and then help theirs. I was like,
>> "Yeah,
>> Absolutely."
>> So, tell us, take us through kind of like a day in the life inside treatment. What is it like? Inpatient.
>> Gez, you sound like it's a prison. Take care. A day in the life and sing.
>> I was curious.
>> Absolutely. Day in the life.
>> I did make you do a day in the life in prison. People should go back and listen to that episode. It was a good one.
>> Yes. No, it wasn't. It was good, actually. Okay. But a day in the life in a, a place where people...
>> Absolutely. Yeah. I actually produced an award-winning, um, movie doc that just illustrated just this.
>> What's it called?
>> What is it called? It's Troy Story.
>> I'll get it to you.
>> Okay.
>> But, but, but the main one is Troy Story. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and true story, not to go down that road, but that was an individual that was dear to the family, our, my first employee, and he died in a tragic motorcycle accident, but he was this dude was the guy that you want. If you're going into treatment, you want this guy in your life. And it's an incredible story, 20 minutes long. And then interwebbed in that story was the movie doc on, "Take me through what it is like to go into treatment at Sierra Health and Wellness."
>> Um, you know, it really starts with our incredible admissions workers. And these are, these are like 10 plus guys and gals,
>> That work their butts off. And a lot of people don't know this, but before somebody goes into treatment, sometimes it takes upwards of a month of talking with the family, doing interventions, going back and forth, coaching the person, counseling the person, counseling mom, counseling dad.
>> Yeah.
>> A lot. It, it takes so much work to actually get the person into treatment.
>> Yeah.
>> And then it takes just as much to, to get them to, um, stay right off the...
>> I used to always, yeah. I was like, I tell you a funny story. I went to one of these rehabs I went to was in Burbank. I forgot the name of it.
>> And, and like an idiot on the first day I'm there, these idiots take me on a walk with everybody. And I'm in the very back.
>> Yeah.
>> So I'm walking. We're like, I'm gone.
>> Yep.
>> Before they realize it, I was already gone.
>> They turn right, you turn left.
>> Yeah. I'm like, you don't me. I'm the kind of guy you better keep me in there for at least six or seven days and be like, "Calm down a little bit."
>> Lock down. Yeah. Time down on the bed.
>> Yeah. I had a similar story. I had, um, I had a guy that just came in. And, um, we were headed down to the park and we, and I, I did the same stupid thing that the treatment center did. And this was way back in the day when I first got started. And I'm thinking, man, I'm going to take this group of guys down to the park. We're going to have fun. Throw the football around.
>> And I, we pull up and we stop at a stoplight and there's a liquor store right there.
>> Oh man.
>> The guy busts the van door open in the middle of this, you know, highway thing and runs across and, and, uh, jumps in the liquor store, grabs a bottle of vodka, and chugs the entire thing.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> It's like, "Okay, all right, let's start over. Let's go. Let's go back up, you know."
>> Yeah. That's when you realize addiction is real, you know.
>> Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Yep.
>> So, the first thing is that, right? Getting through that, uh, that part that is a little bit of, uh, medical and clinical criteria, just trying to understand, does, is this person the right fit for us and what we can do for them? Because maybe we're not, maybe someone down the street that we have relationships with is. And what matters is really that person getting the right culture that they need. From there, uh, there's a financial component, like background. You know, you got to check the insurance, got to check those sorts of things. Once they come in, uh, the first thing that they're met with is the nursing team.
>> And the nursing team is going to meet with them. Uh, they're, they're going to, you know, it's, it's person by person in terms of like timing, because some folks are drunk, some folks are in withdrawals actively, you know.
>> So the process from the admissions by the time the individuals picked up and brought to treatment,
>> Prescriptions are ordered so that when they get to the facility, they have their detox medications. And that's really like the most important thing is making sure these guys are medicated and they feel comfortable.
>> Yeah. 'Cause the place that I went to when I first got there, that was the last place when I got sober finally.
>> I was in the worst mood possible.
>> Yeah.
>> And I was ready to fight everybody.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's when they tied you up.
>> Yeah. They told me that. Yeah. 'Cause they had a psych ward above you.
>> That's real, right? They tie people.
>> No, not anymore. But back, okay. Back in the day, they had a psych ward upstairs.
>> See it in the movies. If you have a psych ward upstairs, you can get strapped down in four points.
>> Yeah.
>> And they had a psych ward upstairs. And I decided that I was, I decided, "They're telling me I had to go to a meeting." I was taking a shower and they said, "You're going to go to a meeting." I am not going to a meeting right now because I just got there. Screw you guys. Screw this meeting. And I ripped the shower rod down. I go, "Who wants it? Who wants it?" And this giant black guy walked in. He goes, "This can be hard or easy." I went easy. Next thing I know, all of a sudden, psych ward, strapped down and, but that's, you know, in four points. But that was, it was right for me. It was very right for me. I needed that at the time.
>> Yeah. And that's the difference is, you know, all of the programs nowadays, these are voluntary programs.
>> Yeah.
>> And they're, they're not, they're as much as some moms want them to be involuntary, it's not going to be effective if the person doesn't want treatment.
>> They have to want to be there.
>> That's right. And they have to. Well, you have to see, for me, I didn't fully surrender until I was sober for two years because I tell you why.
>> They said that I was going to be the first one to go out. And so I was so stubborn. I was like, "I will stay sober just to piss you off." And then two years later, I'm like, "Man, this is great. I love it." And bam, the miracle happened. I was like, "Wow, this is..."
>> That's interesting. Wow.
>> You know, and then I've been, I've gone on 33 years sober, right?
>> Wow.
>> Just to spite everybody.
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was that kind of person. I always spite you and stay sober.
>> It's hilarious.
>> Not be the first one out here.
>> Well, I guess you got to find your motivation.
>> Yeah. You got to do it. Yeah. You got to figure it out. Whatever works works, you know.
>> Yeah. So, the nurses will will take them in if, if they feel comfortable. First thing that we do is we're getting, you know, basic information. We want to make sure that they're fed. So, oftentimes we, we either feed them on the way or we feed them as soon as they get there.
>> Um, and the big deal is, and a lot of people don't think this is important, but,
>> Once you're there and you kind of get through the, the paperwork stuff, as minimal as possible, and you're medicated, shower. Yes.
>> Go shower.
>> You know, take your clothes, wash them, go shower, get situated. That's all you need to focus on right now is take a really good shower.
>> And, um, um,
>> People don't realize how much that, that, uh, that means to an individual. You know, they're like, "Okay."
>> Um, and then, you know, just from everyone you can imagine, these individuals are met with compassion. Just making sure that their needs are met, whether they run into, um, you know, the environmental health worker or the security guard or the therapist or the program director or whoever. Everyone's on point. Everyone's got the same culture down and everyone's operating and, and what I like to call that humble leadership, uh, where we're just here to serve people. I mean, that's our job. That's that's what we're here to do.
>> Yeah. Kindness goes a long way in this field.
>> Yeah.
>> And genuineness. And genuine people really wanting to help you.
>> Yeah. That's, that's what you, and that's what I found at my place where they were really sincerely wanting to help me,
>> Right?
>> You know, and, and it worked.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's the only thing that does. I mean, you, you, you know right away who's who's authentic and who's not.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> You know.
>> Oh, yeah. So, um, from there, they're in detox, right? And so they see the physician every day.
>> Um, and medication is somewhat adjusted. If they're, if they're not feeling well, we, we up this or we up that or we change this or we change that. The whole goal for really the first 72 hours is we want them to be comfortable. We're monitoring them every 15 to 30 minutes.
>> Um, and that's a physical three-feet monitoring. It, it is somewhat could kind of be a little annoying, but we want to make sure you're alive, right? We want to make sure that you're alive.
>> And, um, and it's also required, right? It's required by our licensing department. We can't, we can't not do that. Uh, and it's just standard of care. We got to monitor people. That's the whole point of being in a medical detox facility is you're being monitored, you know?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And so, um, the first three days are obviously the most, you know, like, "What, what am I doing?" All right. I'm, I'm, I'm medicated. I, you know, you're, you're much more want to be medicated than you want to be in withdrawals. And I think that's a lot of people don't want to detox because they don't want to feel the withdrawals.
>> And what people don't realize is, you go to a detox facility, you won't, if you communicate correctly to the provider,
>> Yeah.
>> They will adjust the medications for ease. That's...
>> It's to ease it. It's to make, help you sleep. It's so that you don't go into seizures.
>> Um, you know, things. Oh, yeah, alcohol, benzodiazepines,
>> Heroin and that kind of stuff.
>> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> Yeah. There was a guy who, um, there was no, they gave him medication in one of the centers that I worked in.
>> And it wasn't, he had done, he was so over that it literally, he was screaming the whole night.
>> Yeah. Wow.
>> And they tried everything. They just, because he was so out there.
>> Yeah. It was hard. So...
>> Well, the tough part about heroin...
>> From heroin.
>> So the tough part about heroin is you cannot medicate them.
>> Yeah.
>> For the first 18 to 24 hours.
>> So, so the best drug to use for that is Suboxone.
>> And you can't administer Suboxone for at least 18 hours of,
>> Withdrawal. That's the crazy part about it.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So...
>> That's why he was screaming so loud.
>> They have to get through that part.
>> Absolutely.
>> And that's pooping yourself and all that kind of stuff. It's bad. Vomiting, beaded sweat.
>> Sweating. Yep.
>> It's terrible.
>> It is terrible. Believe me, I've watched them go through it.
>> Yeah. It's not fun. And, and most of those guys are using heroin because they had back injuries. They were put on oxycodone or...
>> I never liked heroin. Thank God.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I wasn't a downer. I didn't like downers.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I wanted to be up here.
>> Yeah.
>> The whole time. Stay for 72 hours.
>> I start seeing ghosts everywhere and I was, that was the problem.
>> How long is detox, that phase?
>> Yeah. So, it's based off of medical necessity.
>> Um, the provider is the sole individual that determines that with the patient. Typically, it's between three and seven days. And three days is probably normal.
>> Um, seven days is a very long detox. And you're not acute for seven days, right? There, there might be something going on that we need to monitor for day six and day seven. Yeah.
>> But typically, it's three, four days.
>> Pretty stable.
>> Right. And that's why when people are going to treatment, if they're only going for like a week, it's like, you're basically just getting detox.
>> Useless.
>> That's it.
>> So, I want to take that back. It, it may not be useless to everyone. So, for example, if you've gone to treatment, you've been there for 30, 60 days, and then you have a relapse, you go to detox, and you're in the right mind, and only you know if you're in the right mind, likely is you don't necessarily need to stay for another 30 days. I don't know that for everyone. The, the person listening this, uh, would know. Right.
>> Right.
>> Um, but we do get people that come in and they say, "I only want detox."
>> And the problem with that is there's no treatment happening.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, we're getting rid of your physical withdrawals, but the, the reason you're drinking or the reason you're using, we don't get to treat that at all. So, it is a huge, huge risk. Almost nobody works out if they just do detox only.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> They got to, you got to have a program.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, Bill W said it right. He's like, "You without a program, you ain't making it." And without God, he said, "You won't make it."
>> Absolutely. And we, we know statistically that the longer someone's in treatment, the better.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And that the minimum is 45 days.
>> Yep.
>> The minimum.
>> And that's the other thing. The insurance companies want to pay 14, 15 days max.
>> Exactly. Exactly.
>> And it just doesn't work. Doesn't work. So...
>> Yeah. Because this is the, and for this disease, it's a long, it's a long game. Yeah. You play the long game, people can stay sober.
>> That's right.
>> And it's like, you know, I was like, I lived sober living for 17 months. So I played the long game this time. But before I would play, you know,
>> 18 days, 30, I played 30 days, but I...
was gone. But I played, you know, 17 months is a long time to be on a program. And and they had to push me out. I didn't want to leave. They were they were like, you got you got to go now.
And then and then sober living was a place you went to. That's where I stayed 17 months, right? Yeah. That's where you go after. I was in treatment for 60 days and then I went to sober living for 17 months.
So my my recommendation typically standardly is that you go to treatment for 45 to 60 days. That includes detox. And then you go to some sort of supportive housing. For 60 to 90 with outpatient services. And it, you know, again, it's person by person, but you really want to get that amount of time because there's what we refer to as providers, you know, the the higher levels of care or the different levels of care or the continuum of care you might hear.
And the first obviously top-notch is detox. And then you have residential services which is in the same building, same bed, same etc. Once that's complete, you need to go down to what's called PHP, partial hospitalization program. And that is essentially an outpatient program that sees you 3 to 5 days a week, six hours a day. So you're there essentially doing what you did in residential, but you're not being monitored overnight.
And that for long. So the detox residential is what you recommend is like the 45 to 60 days. Correct. Okay. And then this outpatient where you're you're seeing somebody several times a week still. And maybe in like a sober living house as the next step.
Yeah. So PHP is typically, you know, four to six weeks and then you just reduce. So you reduce to what's called intensive outpatient, which is three days a week, typically four hours a day. And you can do once it gets to that, you're essentially you're able to go back to work. You're able to, you know, you go to a class Mondays at 6:00 in the evening after work or whatever, but you're able to work. You're able to go back. you have you still have support. You're still in group. You still see your provider. Um, but you're just connected, right? And and that's the important part is staying in recovery for long term. It doesn't have to be like that, but you got to you got to stay connected. You know, see your therapist once a month or so.
So when you with um with Sierra, what are you what are you looking forward to for the for Sierra in the future?
Yeah. Yeah. So, right now we are um we have and I'll just go through a couple. We have we have a few locations in the Sacramento area, large presence in Sacramento. We have a veterans only program in But County, which is a 24 acre ranch, and it's got 16 beds that are um and we call it the the war uh the Wellness Warrior Ranch. 16 beds are detox res and then we have on the same property six beds for crisis residential or primary mental health and those are vets only and uh there's there's a big reason to do vets or first responders only but um and then we have presence in the Bay Area um and down in Monterey. Um, our goal is to be in all 50 states. I mean that's that's our intention and I always say it like this. Our goal is to be in all 50 states or until our care starts to decline. As soon as we're too big to manage the platinum level care or the best care that we can provide, that's the point where we got to go, okay, uh, we're we're done. Otherwise, we're just like everyone else.
The veterans only facility, those extra six are those for people that maybe don't have a substance use is they were it's just a mental um I don't mean just as in like trivial just yes and no. So the primary, so there's a couple ways. The technical term is crisis residential. That's the technical term of the license. Uh, it's also referred to as primary mental health. And what that means is that the diagnosis of the individual is primarily or the the the biggest issue is a mental health condition or a mental health disorder like PTSD or Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. The addiction issue could still be there, but it maybe is a secondary diagnosis. Um, so that person is appropriate for one of those programs for all of them. Right. Absolutely. Anywhere. Yeah. And but the difference is the the mental health only patient can only go to those types of facilities. Gotcha. So the license at least in California where we are doesn't allow uh, for us to take individuals like in the detox residential places with no addiction issues. those folks have to go to the primary mental health issues, right?
So, um, um, it's kind of, you know, both can go here, but not both can go there, right? Um, and so though that level of care is just a little bit different. It's it's individuals that that do truly have sometimes you know more acute um mental health disorders and um, you know, suicidal ideiations um, you know, stuff like that that that uh, that maybe maybe they don't have an addiction issue at all and they're just struggling with that, right? Uh, nine times out of 10 those individuals self-medicate and so they wind up in the addiction medicine world. you detox them and you go, "Oh, these guys have some significant co-occurring disorders that we need to treat." And um, and that's why you could do both on the detox res side because you have to be built for both uh, because of that, right? Um, and so um, um, it's it's important at least for us as a provider to have all service lines because again it it allows us to be a better resource to the community and a better resource to the person because when you go to treatment and you've built a rapport and you walk in and and you see Sarah Health and Wellness and you have you know brown walls and you you know have this system and you do this at this time and then you go to the outpatient clinic and it's exactly the same and you the people are acting exactly the same because the people have the same boss and the same principles and purpose. Um, you feel comfortable and you're like I'm at home, right? As opposed to going to treatment here and then getting sent out and you got to know a whole different rhyme or reason, different group of people, different culture. Um, so that's what we've wanted to be able to create is anything our patients may need as well as like pharmacy, you know, pharmaceutical issu uh needs. Um, it's not just, you know, the specific behavioral health. Um, that's predominantly what we do, but it's not all we want to do.
Yeah. Yeah. If you um if you could just magically change one thing, like we give you a magic wand to make treatment better, to make things more successful, what would you change?
It it goes it goes back to the rates. If the rates were standard and they were even 40% higher, every treatment facility in this country would be able to provide the correct services and be in a state where they can afford to uh uh um pay their bills, pay their people well. Because at the end of the day, your product line is your nurses, your therapists, your your uh physicians. And if these folks aren't well paid, they're not going to be happy. Yeah. And they're not going to be able to um or they're not going to want to if they can't pay their bills or they're struggling at home. And of course, we live in the US where you have to have two or three incomes anyways in a household. But that if if that was done where that was a federal federally standard uh rate change where it was reasonable, it would stop the abuse. Yeah. It would um uh allow good providers to come in and provide a good service.
Well, I I think it has for me it has a lot to do with like you know like you hear about these other countries like I had a um Wendy's uh you know um uh friend who had that surgery in Japan. They were like oh we hate to have to charge you but you don't have any insurance. You don't live here. And she's like she's thinking you know it's going to be like 30 $40,000 for that surgery. And there was like oh it's a hundred bucks. Yeah. That's the problem in United States. You go to a hospital and you get a pill and it's freaking $60 for just a an aspirin. I'll tell you why. That's the problem. Yeah. I'll tell you why. It It's the insurance games. I mean, all of this is the insurance. If I send a bill to an insurance company and let's say it's what I need. Let's say it's $1,500, right? And that's the exact amount I need. They will pay me 20% of that. They will say, "Okay, we're going to pay you, you know, whatever that is, right? the uh four, you know, 400 bucks. We got to do math here. $300. Yeah. Yeah. 300 bucks. If I send them a bill for $4,000, then they're going to send me a bill for 1,000 bucks or 1,500 bucks, right? And so that game of having to charge this ridiculous amount of money just to get what you need. A lot of people don't realize that's why these things are are skyrocketed. Yeah. And um, it's again it's all solved by some kind of federal standard standardization of rates where behavioral health is brought really brought into mainstream healthcare. Yeah. And we are able to ex really just be transparent and expose these things and say this is what we need. This is how we treat it. Yeah. Absolutely. Not being political with that ain't going to happen the next day. Forget that.
So the big thing is and and this is the this is the point. What we as provider or addiction medicine providers get paid for is the baseline. It is it is the bare minimum. But in order to actually help the person, you have to you have to have the in-house doctors and you have to have the therapists and the psychologists and not just the drug and alcohol counselors. and the the fact that we get paid for the low end of it and in order to stay in the game and in order to provide actually do good to the community, you have to burn through all of the money that you could be making. Yes. That could go back to the employees or back to the uh a new program or growth opportunity, etc. That's all that's all done. It's really a program. You know what I always say is it's a program about really wanting to help people because you ain't going to get rich from it. And you know, so you got to literally work hard, you know, and because that's what it's all about this program. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.
Well, sometimes when we talk about this kind of stuff, I just sit here and go like, "Oh, there's just so much work to be done." Yeah. Well, we have to do it. You probably feel like that a lot, Joe. A lot. A lot. Yeah. And I mean, as long as we have time, I I got another example, and this is a big one that happened to us this year. Um, you know, we we've been one of the largest veteran providers in Northern California, and there was a time that we had a meeting with the with the NorCal VA system, one of their one of their higherups. I don't know exactly the position, but I had asked her, I said, "How many vets do you guys have placed into community care programs like us?" And she said, "Uh, we have 80." She looked it up. 83. And I texted my admissions director, how many vets do we have in our in our care? And at the time it was like 47. We had over half of the Northern California vets. And so for years we've been a large uh veteran provider. And the thing about vets is they especially have a lot of medical issues. Oh yeah. And mental health issues, right? For obvious reasons, right? And and it cost us a lot more money to treat them than it does the regular civilian. Yeah. And that's the population that we want to treat. Yeah. And uh we ended up getting a call in May of uh this year. And it was from Tri West, which is the organization, the the private uh private company that contracts with the federal government and they manage their health care system uh for veterans. They called and like basically the veterans insurance. Veterans Insurance. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right. So they called and and they said um essentially they cut our rates by 80%. and they said, "Hey, we've been paying you and everyone else x amount of dollars. We're we're now moving forward going to pay you that just in the middle of the night just like that." And what that does is it brings the rate even below what some commercial insurance makes uh what they pay. And it makes it nearly impossible to treat veterans the way that they need to be treated. And you ask how do we solve this problem? It it's all about paying appropriate rates so that we providers can do the work like how do they even decide like how do they arrive at the decision to cut the rate how much profits they want. Yeah. That's what it comes down to. How much profits they want. Yeah. That about with everything. Yep. So we're we're on a march to to really expose that because um it's criminal what they're doing to our veterans. Yeah. And um, you know, they they didn't send notices, they didn't do anything. Uh, they just said, "Oh, we're going to do this." And um, you know, I'm talking to peers of mine here in Arizona, uh, California, uh, Nevada, and they're going, "We just we just can't provide services to veterans anymore for this rate. We just can't do it." And uh, you know, what that means is veterans will die from that decision. Whoever made that decision, veterans will die from that, you know. So,
I mean, it's terrible. I I think that's what, you know, makes me feel like my bud start blood starts boiling and I get so frustrated is that it's like if we It's so hard to get people to the point where they're willing to accept treatment. Like we talked about at the beginning, right? That all the process that it has to go to to get the people to actually be able to go to treatment. And and it makes me crazy to think that it's like we get them in the door and then we can't serve them. we can't serve them because there's no funding for it or we can't serve them because of the um the fraud that exists in the industry. They're not even finding good treatment. Like all of the horror stories that you've talked to people about like, "Oh, I I think a lot of the addicts that Todd and I will talk to that are in recovery will talk about the bad places they went before they finally found the good place." Like it's like it's like part of the story that shouldn't be part of the story at all. It's a part of almost everyone's story, right? Like that's terrible. It should be you need treatment and then there's a place you can go to find it. Right. Right. Absolutely. So there's just a lot of work that needs to be done here. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes u you know just transparency. Right. Because we're transparent. We'll we'll lay down to any of the insurance companies what our cost is to actually treat that patient and how much money we actually need. You know, they call it reimbursement. We're giving we're we're treating the patient and they're reimbursing us for that. So, um, yeah, it's it hopefully hopefully something. It's going to it's going to take some politician that's, you know, very very specifically has a passion for addiction medicine and and recovery and fixing what this country's really caused. Right. Well, yeah. And I think in this country, we have more addiction here than they do anywhere. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and we Todd and I are working on um mybestrehab.org, a foundation that will help bring people Yeah. to the best treatment centers like Sierra. Help them find those because there's there's so many people that you know are looking for treatment and they just end up in those bad places. And like Todd was saying, if we can get if we can just connect people with the right centers. Yes. Some of those people will be able to pay and help Yep. Support the rest. Like I I mean, there's just so much that work needs to be done here. But yeah. No, that's going to be a great tool. It really is. It really is. Maybe by the time this episode airs, it will be ready. We're putting the finishing touches on it. So, it takes time. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
Well, we do a little segment each week called Todd Flick, which is about a TV show. Okay. That Todd is watching at the moment. And I did not think that it was adequate to do Breaking Bad. That would not work for this show. Save that one for another. Save that for another show. So, this one is called Countdown. It's a new series on Amazon Prime June. It just got released in June starring Jensen Eckles from Supernatural. Okay. And it's a really good show. It's about um the plot is a Go ahead. You want to read the plot, honey? No, you read it. The plot is after a a Homeland Security officer is murdered, an LAPD detective Mark Mechum. Uh Eckles Eckles joins a convert turt task force to uncover agents. You didn't have to read that. You could. I'm just reading it. And he starts with a manhunt because I'm reading it. starts with a man cover uh uncovers a far dark conspiracy. What's happening? And now I'm going to just tell us what the show is about. What the show's about is Jensen Eckl's character. He what he what he the supernatural guy. Which guy though? Which one? Which one? It's the the the smaller brother. Oh, not the guy that was on Gilmore Girls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not the guy who has that Walker that Texas show. Yeah. Not that. Is that one good? That Texas show? No. That's for next week. No, not good. I don't like it. I didn't like it. So, okay. But we love Supernatural. I love Supernatural. I loved everything Jason Eckles has been in. He was in The Boys, Supernatural, and also now he's in this show called Countdown. And what I found really good interesting about it is it's basically about these task force that they they're like become like above the FBI. They're above everybody. No. And they go out trying to figure out what happened to solve, you know, this case. But what they run into basically, I don't want to ruin this. I can't tell you what they run into. Yeah, you can. But the good part about it is Jensen Eckles also has a medical issue that he's dealing with the whole time and he doesn't want to tell anyone. So he's a detective. He's a detective. Yeah. He's and he's one detective that he's very physical detective. Wants to get things done and then he's working with all these wonderful and and everybody I can't think of the names of the people, but I I've seen everybody in something. Okay. So it's a good cast. Yeah, it's a really really good cast. That makes a difference. And and yeah, the boss is amazing. But it is still coming out, right? This one is like in its first season. This is the first season and it's on episode I'm waiting for episode 8 I believe I'm waiting for. Do they still release episode by episode? Some of them they do. Some of them I thought we were done with that. I thought No, I think they've gone back to that model because people will just like consume it so quickly. That's what I would do, right? Yeah, that's what I do too. I'll just binge it. But yeah. Yeah. Now I'm waiting on shows just different. It's driving me crazy right now because I'm used to binging them. I know. And I actually I'm surprised we even covered this as hot because they can't really go binge it. They can go watch like the first like watch the first seven episodes. Yeah. But it's like such a good show and you can watch Supernatural while you're waiting for it to come out. And Supernatural you can binge let Supernatural is so good. We I don't Have we even done that one? I don't know. I don't know if we've ever done that. No, but I I Are you sure you watched Supernatural? Cuz it could be scary. We watched it. I watched it with you. Well, we haven't watched a whole season of it. All of it. But it's like 2010 scary. That's different scary than now. It totally is. And it's a long show. It's very long. How many episodes of that? Have you seen Supernatural? I've seen half of their seasons. It's very long. I've watched it all the way cuz I cuz I kept up with it. I watched it from the beginning. Okay. Yeah. And then but I use I could binge shows I could probably watch if it's a a 13 episode show or 22 episodes. I probably can do 10 shows a day. You know what's amazing to me is how much TV and movie like Todd has seen. He's seen almost everything. Yeah. And at first when I first met him, I was kind of like, I don't know about this. He watches so much. But I'm like, this is his literally his job, right? So then I then I felt better about it. I was like, okay, he's just trying to stay up on his craft by you have to because you have to know what's going on. That's why I made you watch K-pop Demon Hunters and Aren't you glad? That was a really good show, actually. Have you seen that yet? I haven't. Oh my gosh. I don't watch a lot of TV, but this one's on Netflix, right? But if you watch it, you'll start singing with it. Kids. It's a kids basically from teenage girls. Do you have young You have young kids? I have so many. I have five kids. Really? Yeah. How do you have any under like the age of 12? My oldest is 12. Okay. She like She like it. Like they've probably seen K-pop Demon Hunters. It's on Netflix. It's a kid, but it's actually music. We like it. It's It's kind of a fun one to watch as a family. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really particular on the show. So, I like a lot of the kind of ancient I like the Viking shows. Oh, yeah. A lot of those. Then you must have seen um what's the name of the uh Ghost? Is that what you're thinking? No, you're thinking about Seven Kings Must Die. You've seen that? Yes. Y and and you watched that whole season of that? Yeah, I watched that whole season of that that show. And then Seven King must die was the movie for it. Okay. So, there's a comedy show called Ghosts that is a really funny Viking character on it. And it's just a short one. If you're short on time, this would be a good one. It's What channel is it on? Or which is it Prime? Is Ghost Prime or Netflix? No, it's I don't know. It's called Ghost and it's funny plus it's funny with the Viking in it. Yes. And the Viking hilarious is one of my favorite characters cuz he he you know they and it's not a Marvel movie. Yeah. No. No. And it's short. Like you like it's probably 25 minutes, you know. Oh, it's an actual short. Yeah. Yeah. It's a Well, now though, what they're getting ready to do, people don't realize what they're getting ready to do, making three-minute shows. Oh, that's getting ready to become really popular. Really? Yeah. They're they they're doing it right now. A lot a lot of people are putting a lot of money involved. I think they're vertical ones, too, right? You like walk They're meant to they're meant for your phone or your computer. You just, you know, but it's going to be three minutes, which is nothing. That's no more your time. You watch three minute show. So, yeah, that's it's interesting you say that. I met with a um because I had a a part in my life. I've I've done one full feature film, executive producer, and then some shorts and stuff like that. And I met with a producer down in Beverly Hills. And I was talking to him and he was telling me, and this was maybe a year ago, year and a half ago. He was telling me there's, you know, Hollywood in general is just trying to figure out which direction they're going. No one knows, right? It's kind of broken a little bit right now. It's very broken. Well, the business is so the business to me and we've told them this was going to happen is broken because of all the reality shows. We told them that was going to happen. The more reality shows you make because a reality show once you know the outcome you're not going to watch it again. It's not like a TV show. Well, and also the splintered audience, the fact that there is so like it's it's impossible to amass as big of an audience as you used to be able to get because everybody, you know, we have so many so much so many options and so many people producing too, you You know, I mean, it's Netflix is doing their own thing. These guys are doing their own thing. But that's why the three minutes are going to be really could do really well because you may not have time, but you can watch an entire episode in 3 minutes. It's crazy. I'll be interesting. We'll see. I mean, I remember you used to be able to walk into the movie theater and and pick from like six really good quality movies. Yeah. Not anymore. And it's just maybe once every couple months you have one good one. Yeah. It's crazy. I'm still I like Marvel movies. I'm still there. Oh, yeah. I like I like horror movies, too. Like I watch a lot of horror movies in my my old house. I do not watch horror movies. I'm not a horror movie fan. Yeah. Well, we don't watch the demonic ones, but we watch all the other ones. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cuz I can't I don't want to see the demonic ones. And by we, he means he and his kids, cuz that she'd be afraid to walk outside if she's one of those. When I did watch horror movies, I didn't watch the demonic ones. It was just Yeah. It's like that can be real. That's real. It's so true. I know Freddy ain't going to kill me in my dreams. Yeah. Exactly. But this other one, man, Uhuh. Yep. I don't want to run into no demon for real. Absolutely. Well, dang. Dang. I'm Todd Bridges and that's Betty Joe Bridges. Is it? No, I'm kidding. Bridges. And if you like us, like and subscribe and tell a friend. See you next time. Dang is produced by my wife Betty Joe Bridges in collaboration with Star Worldwide Network Studios and edited by our daughter Adalie Anne. She's also the musician responsible for our theme music. So go check out Adalie Anne wherever you stream your music. Have a question or topic you want us to cover? Send us your suggestions at dangpodcast.com. Do me a favor. Please subscribe and rate our podcast to make it easier for others to find. Have a great week. Yeah, I'm like D think you might just know the way. [Music]