Christian vs. Muslim Women | The Bridge

We as Muslims, we believe in Jesus. Jesus is a very important part of our religion. We believe in Jesus. In fact, out of all our prophets, even Muhammad, Allah has chosen Jesus to come back at the end of the times. That's how important he is in our religion. And that's why we always connect on a very different level with Christians as opposed to any other faith. And that also brings us together in more ways than one.

And then the second should you use the term God when you talk about Islam as well because why is it that you would refer to God as Allah when you're talking about Islam and God when you're talking about Christianity because that's already stacking the deck.

Okay, I I I can do that. I think it's just important for the distinction for the viewers too because it I don't want to make the viewers need to be brought into this conversation.

Okay, that's fine. I just want to be able to make the distinction when I'm talking about Islam versus Christianity and it could get confusing but I'll I'll try to do that to acknowledge you.

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In a world often divided by faith, it's easy to forget the people behind the beliefs. On this episode of The Bridge, Christian and Muslim women come together to share their personal journeys, spiritual convictions, and views on God, scripture, and faith. This isn't just a debate. It's a conversation. Honest, respectful, and human. Welcome to the bridge.

Actually, I can see I can sit on this end. My name is Grace and I'm a follower of Jesus.

My name is Kalia and I am a Christian.

My name is Donna and I'm a Jesus freak and I love God.

My name is Shanasa and I'm a Christian.

My name is Natasha and I'm a Christian.

My name is Ani and I'm a Muslim.

Peace be upon everyone. My name is Nadia. I'm Muslim.

My name is Bushra and I'm Muslim.

My name is Janatu Mawa. I'm a Bangali Muslim.

My name is Rukaya Khan and I am of Muslim background and amus.

We worship the same God. So I believe that historically and geographically that there is a connection between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. They're all Abrahamic faiths, Abrahamic religions. Um, and when I was studying that in school, it really spoke to me because I was like, "Wow, we're a little bit more interconnected than I thought." Um, but as I continued to study the word, I found that Allah is not consistent with the Yahweh of the Bible, specifically how Yahweh expresses himself in a triune nature. I think that Allah and the Quran actually end up contradicting who Yahweh has expressed himself to be even though they're from the same region.

The word Allah in in Arabic um is bas means the God. Christian Arabs actually use Allah as well. So um so I think because we're in the west uh we have Muslims also use the word Allah instead of God and by default that kind of selfisolates themselves and for me as a Muslim I think that's a misrepresentation because we live in the United States we should be using the word God um and so it doesn't it it it's a more unifying term and so when we say Allah it means that well we have our own God Right. And and when it in actuality it isn't. And so I think but the most important part is at the source of it is Allah is the God which is also a term that Arab Christians which are the original Christians uh is a term that they use themselves to this day.

Yeah. I think uh language can be the same but it doesn't necessarily mean we're expressing the same person. So there could be another my name's Kalia. So there could be another Kalia in the room, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that Kalia is me.

I really liked what you said in describing why you believe a certain way. It wasn't rooted in like a prejudice. You actually studied, which I think is really important. It's something that's crucial in Islam. They seek to seek knowledge. So I really do appreciate that you came from like uh inquisitive and actually looking into it yourself. there was something that um I connected with that you said and it's because I'm a Muslim girl that went to Catholic school all her life. So I uh studied Christianity intensely if you'll say especially um at a younger age it was really drilled in and there was um two courses that I took one Bible is literature one and then two so old testament and new testament and a lot of the discussions talked about how it's still the same god but the god that's described in the old testament is often like a little bit um there's like differences in how god is described desried in the New Testament, but they're still the same God. Um, I'm not like trying to convince you to like con uh think that I'm praying to the same God that you are. It's just like something that I think would be interesting for you to explore as uh you go on your spiritual journey. So, I really did connect with what you said and I appreciate that it wasn't just like, oh no, I Googled and the moon it says you worship the moon. So I do appreciate that nuance conversation and I think it kind of leads in to maybe another topic we might discuss because I was kind of like do I do this because I do believe we worship the same God but then there is nuanced perspective where you could say but we believe Jesus is son of God and the trinity and you guys don't believe in that and that's why I could see someone saying we don't worship the same God if you will but um I always go back to thinking and this is something that I think is a misconception in the west that we don't realize that we're actually like brothers and sisters if you realize it like Christians and Jewish people and Muslims uh I see you guys as sisters in the religion people will often say that oh Muslims think Christian are non-believers and that's not true Christians are people of the book so you guys are my sisters in religion and faith and I hope as we discuss we get that connection deeper.

I voted that they are not the same god because when you look at the text and compare them, you'll see that um the god of the Quran has a different character. For example, there is a verse in the Quran and it says um essentially I'm paraphrasing but it says don't think that Allah is being merciful to the disbelievers. Um he's allowing them to store up wrath so that their punishment will be greater. And then when you go to the scripture, it says do not count slowness as some would consider slow. God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish. So that's a fundamental difference. One person is saying, "Oh, I'm just keeping them alive so they can keep sinning and so I can make their punishment even worse." One person is saying, "I'm keeping them alive so they can get that I love them so much and then they can repent." And so that's a fundamental difference in character. And there's many other verses that I can compare like that. Secondly, the plan of redemption is completely different. In one text, in the Christian text, the plan of redemption comes through Jesus Christ who is God. And um this is something that was demonstrated and attested to historically. This is someone something that's very clear in scripture throughout the Bible. But when you go to the Quran, it is considered sherk to ascribe a partner to God. Um it is considered a grave sin to uh consider or to um agree that Jesus was crucified. And as Paul would write, if Jesus did not die and resurrect, we have no hope. We needed a sacrifice to cleanse us of our sins. And that sacrifice had to be righteous. And the only one that was righteous is God. Um, and the last reason that I believe that there's a distinction, and we do not worship the same God, is because the nature of God to us, which is kind of something I previously just discussed, is different. We believe that God is triune meaning it is one God expressed in three persons. And you see that even from the beginning of Genesis 1:1. In Genesis 1:1 it says in the beginning God. But the word in Hebrew is Elohim. Now when we say Elohim, people know that we're saying God. However, Elohim is actually a plural word. When you look at cherub, that's an angel. Sarif, that's an a angel. But when you look at um a group of angels, it's saraphim and cherubim. So Elohim is both God, but there's also a plurality associated with it. So from the very beginning of scripture, you see that there is some plurality. There's some trin trinitarian aspect, if you will, um associated with it. And then further proof to that um and then I'll concede my point is the same chapter, Genesis 1:26. You see this theme throughout scripture. Um, God says, "Let us go down and make man in our image." And that is a conversation that God is having with someone else that could that could allow for our image to reflect. So again, the plan of redemption is different, the character is different and the nature of God is different. So we do not worship the same God.

Can I pick up on that? Um, so first of all, um, regarding, you know, you described certain passages from the Bible and then also the Quran. uh what you cited from the Quran was portrayed a god that was violent or was not um was not compassionate. Um and then you selected another set of verses from the Bible. Look, if we want to be honest, we can find any number of verses from any scripture to support a certain concept of God. If you want to look at the old scripture, you can find verses that support a god of fire and brimstone. There are verses associated with the chapter chapters concerning Joshua where everything is decimated, right? Everything is destroyed, human beings, animals, etc. in the name of destroying idolatry. So that kind of, you know, that kind of conception of God is also there in the Old Testament. I don't want to get into the New Testament. I think you should know that every chapter almost every chapter of the 114 chapters of the Quran start with the formula of in the name of God the most merciful, the most compassionate. So I think one of the things we have to understand is that scripture is manifold. It has many meanings. And I understand that some people may think no scripture is written. It's codified. It's written in stone. whatever is represented in it is one way but I think you will find that that will be debunked um as regards as regards um the the point about redemption. So redemption in Christianity is through most Christians would say through the person of Christ but frankly you're going to find dissent and debate regarding that even in Christianity. There are many denominations in Christianity. Catholics, I'm married to a Catholic. Catholics have a certain way of relating to God and the triune God that for example Unitarian members of the Unitarian Church do not or certain Protestant denominations do not. I think that redemption the ter the term redemption as far as Christianity as as far as Islam is concerned probably, you know, there's no equivalent in it. I mean salvation is there and there's a fierce and very strong belief that one's actions, thoughts, deeds, however one conducts oneself in the earthly realm has consequences. That could be construed as redemption. I think if you push that far enough, you find that there's a gray area there between Christianity and Islam. And I think the third point you made was um you said there was redemption and then the nature of God. The nature of God. So you know what that's the kind of debate we could endlessly have. I would not presume to know the nature of God. And I think that God reveals himself and then also there's certain aspects of God that are not manifest. And I think both Christian and Muslims would acknowledge that.

Thank you for sharing. Um it it is a um interesting topic because I feel that sometimes we're going into the religion part of it and for me it's about the person. It's about the person of Jesus Christ and um so he did die and hung on a cross and sacrificed himself. He did come here as God. And there are witnesses to the truth of that when he was resurrected. And that kind of love, that kind of love and I is what inspires me to have a relationship with Jesus. Um there's many many different things that like you were saying, you know, we could spend a lot of time talking about, but when it comes to the Holy Spirit, um that's where I feel like when you have an encounter um with Jesus, it is the time to make your decision. So I wanted to address two of your points. Um firstly, the point you made about the scriptures. Yes, anybody can pull a scripture out of context and make God some evil, wrathful, you know, you guys have heard it all, cosmic child abuse from non-religious people who don't understand. Um, but I think the difference in understanding the the distinction between the texts is the character of God. Like she was saying this plan of redemption in Christianity, God is the only God who came from heaven, left his throne incarnated as a son on the cross and died for us. He's the only one who left the comfort of the heavens to come and reconcile ourselves to him. So yes, while there are passages about God's justice and God's wrath, which he is justified in, which I'm sure you guys would say about Allah, he is the only God who redeemed us through his own death.

And then you use the term God when you talk about Islam as well because why is it that you would refer to God as Allah when you're talking about Islam and God when you're talking about Christianity? Just because I think that's already stacking the deck.

Okay, I I I can do that. I think it's just important for the distinction for the viewers, too, because it I don't want to make the viewers need to be brought into this conversation.

Okay, that's fine. I just want to be able to make the distinction when I'm talking about Islam versus Christianity, and it could get confusing, but I'll I'll try to do that to acknowledge you. Um, and then the second point I was going to make, there's kind of this misconception when people are talking about Christianity where they're like there's a million, and I talked about this previously previously, there's a million different denominations and this person could argue this and this church could argue this. When you really look at it historically, there's only two branches of Christianity. There's Protestantism and there's Catholicism. Every church that is not a Catholic church is a Protestant church. That is our branch. Denominations are just different expressions.

What about Orthodox Christianities?

Eastern. Okay, that that too. But that's still Orthodox. That's that's still Orthodox Christianity. That that's the opposite of Catholicism. Still Protestant.

You're representing a Christianity in the United States. So we can talk about Christianity, but we if it's United States, I will accept what you're saying. But that is

But even Orthodoxy isn't Catholicism. It's not its own denomination. It's a tradition. So I'd like to bring uh another different perspective. We are talking about a lot of scriptural debates and theological terms but I'd like to tell you the story how how I first I was first introduced with Allah or God whatever we we uh term the this power. Um so when I in my earliest memory um it was when I was 4 years old we were living in a coastal town of Bangladesh. Um we were living with our mom and in our quiet town suddenly a huge cyclone hit up and um I still remember it was like outside there was like wind was like roaring like a monster inside our mom was holding us tightly all our siblings and praying constantly. Um I don't I didn't understand what what she was like saying. I don't understand. I didn't understand a single words of that. But I could understand that my helpless mom was seeking seeking help from someone powerful who is not visible. And the whole night went like this. I don't know uh when I fell asleep and in the morning when I woke up I saw like we we opened the door and we saw like everything was incredibly calm and there was no leaves left on any trees around our town. And uh out of nowhere in our yard there was a big fish lying. And to me like for a 4 years old kid I feel like uh my mom was praying and that prayers um Allah listened. That's how I first introduced with Allah. And I feel like this experience is not very uncommon to any other woman uh or or any other kids around the world. In that sense, do we worship the same God? I would say yes. In another sense, maybe no. Because to me, sometimes even two Muslims don't worship the same God. Like sometimes I feel more connected when I talk with um a Christian woman mostly black Christian women. They are ex because our idea of God is mostly like like we desire our idea of God is like crafted through our experiences through our life through our memories and through our helplessness or sometimes even our day-to-day life joys sorrows and it it can be similar to anyone else around the world at the same time it can be it can differ um so it's it's very interesting question to me and I can't say um like yes or no to me even two Muslims can sometimes see the god in different way even two Muslims and Christian two Muslim and Christian women can feel the idea in a very similar way. Um so it's I see in that way.

So I would like to piggy bank on that. Basically what I want to say is like she said um God is what we feel what what you know it is what we feel inside us the peace the kindness the love um and like she said like we could all have different terms um to it. It also it's also a feeling, right? Uh it's also a feeling of oneness. It's also a feeling of we're all in this together. We we have something to rely on. That's the biggest biggest takeaway from this. And like Donna mentioned, um we as Muslims, we believe in Jesus. Jesus is a very important part of our religion. We believe in Jesus. In fact, out of all our prophets, even Muhammad Allah has chosen Jesus to come back at the time at in at the end of the times. That's how important he is in our religion. And and that's why we always connect on a very different level with Christians. Um as opposed to any other faith, right? Um and that also brings us together in more ways than one because we have so much love and respect for Jesus. Um and in no way we're trying to uh debate that at all. He's an important part of our religion. We also respect and we also have so much love and kindness um in our hearts for anyone who respects Jesus. Um but here the question was do we worship Jesus? And that's where we probably draw differences. The the the point here is that we we respect Jesus but I think um we but the question is do we worship Jesus? Um, we don't worship Jesus.

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Jesus was a prophet, not the son of God. So I would like to start if that's okay. Um I love what you said about you know you respect and you know your feelings about Jesus and that that is where the difference is because I think that's why we're here. Um you also said that um something about um being revealed uh to Muhammad. Is it Muhammad who? Yes. So he was born 500 and like a long time after Jesus was raised from the dead. So that's kind of hard to understand for me because versus the apostles who were there that witnessed. So to to it's a hard stretch for me to go to that area and say well he is the one why why would I put my faith in someone who wasn't there who didn't witness what Jesus was about we all know Jesus was amazing we all know that he was prophetic we all know but the difference like you were saying and I love the feeling I too as a very young girl um had a visitation from Jesus and that was my God. And um I did not grow up in a family that had any religion or anything. But when I think about it like our love and our worship and our kindness as women, I think it just goes, we do know God just loves everybody. Again, it comes down to that because Jesus came for everybody. you know, there was no Jew, no Greek, no this, no that. And I don't think that what you're saying, and I would like to know if I'm wrong, um, that you're saying the God you serve includes everybody.

So, um, actually the Quran is very clear that the book is revealed for all of humankind, all of I'd say humankind, not mankind. And then and then you were you were speaking about how Jesus was very loving and and how he treated the women and that is not the case toward in Islam and that is actually 150% false because for example the first prophet Muhammad elevated the status of women to that of men and he even appointed the first female imam a religious leader was a woman and everyone that was leading uh like the humanitarian department, the department of education, the teachers, they were all women. The first converts to Islam were women and slaves because it it humanized them. And so I think what is really uh the problem with Islam right now and this is part of my work is really to debunk a lot of the misogynistic and homophobic teachings in Islam that is being normalized or that is sort of mainstreamed and really going back to the roots of the Quran and the teachings of the Quran in Islam in its truest form and how egalitarian it was and how uplifting it was. And so, um, I, you know, I have to push back on the notion that Christ was the only one that was, uh, was there to reveal love and compassion to all of humankind. But the Quran's message is all about that. Number one, and number two, to be a Muslim is also to believe in the previous teachings of all the other prophets. And so, and all the other books. And so we have as Muslims a more inclusive worldview about other faith traditions and um and I don't see that being recipro reciprocated from some of my Christian sisters and brothers.

So you believe in Isaiah you you believe okay so on your in that where it does say that you know defines it that Jesus came as the son of God. What do you say about that if you believe in him as a prophet? It doesn't say somebody else can jump in but it doesn't say in the Quran that Jesus came as a son of God. Now Jesus came was given birth by Mary.

Yes. But but who conceived by the conceived by the Holy Spirit which do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

In Quran it says uh Jesus is the sign of God in body and flesh. We can see the sign of

The Quran came way later.

The Quran was regular. If you look at the span of time, the 600 years that separate Christianity and Islam are, it's not too long. If you want to work in Israelite religion and Judaism, that's much longer. But but speak up to

But whether it's not too long or not, it is a space and time. And there is a difference between being present with Christ who came back and revealed it to a woman. And I'm sorry, I I don't know if I understand correctly. I thought women were not equal.

I think I want to take it back to the point of the question which I think we kind of are skirting on both sides of it whether Jesus is the son of God. I think we have a lot of discussion that can happen around it which kind of misses the point and I think we even discussed about things really getting into the religion of things and not so much the point of of everything. And so we have Jesus who himself revealed saying that he wasn't just the revelation of who God is. He was God in the flesh. We have historical accounts that prove that the miracles he performed and the words that he spoken were spoken of before he came and he fulfilled those things and con constantly he pointed it back to this is what the father said. This is what the father said.

That's what it says in the Quran too that he spoke when he was in in as a baby in the crib. Right.

That's one of our miracles that we don't have. Have you ever read the gospels?

Well, yeah. I went to Catholics.

They believe the gospels are correct. The gospels were actually written after. They weren't from the apostles. We don't know who the sources are. We actually found like a new gospel in Jordan that wasn't included. Um there's like a lot of church history. I don't want to talk badly about Catholic school because it did give me like a good education, but there were uh girls that I went to high school with that grew up Catholic and after learning certain history, they're like starting to question. And I don't want to put them on blast. that's their own journey. We all have our own journeys. But to say that the gospels were written like firsthand accounts right at the time of Jesus, that's just factually not true.

There are 5800 Greek manuscripts that were written closer, she's saying the gap is closer closer to the time of Jesus's existence than when the Quran was written.

The Quran was written within 60 years of the death of the prophet.

And Jesus Jesus responding to the point, please stop cutting me off. And Jesus, he it says in Exodus 3:2 when when God appears as a bush of fire to Moses. I am that I am. Right before that is the angel of the Lord appeared as fire in the bush. An angel of the Lord. Scholars believe that that's Jesus showing up in the text all throughout the scriptures. So my confusion about Islam is you guys utilize the Torah. The prophet utilized the Torah in writing the Quran. Um, but you discount so much of what the Torah says, including the Isaiah scroll, which we see in the Dead Sea Scrolls with over 90% of accuracy. That Isaiah scroll talks about how Jesus is a mighty God, wonderful counselor, prince of peace, we shall call him everlasting father. So, I guess my my question is, why even utilize the Torah at all if you're going to discount the parts about Christ's divinity?

Well, can I speak up and say that your conception of the Torah will be soundly rejected by most Jews. And so what do you do with that? What

Messianic Jews?

No, I think most Jews would reject your the way that you're describing the use of the Torah here will be rejected. So I think you should understand that you know um this the notion of the Quran as it's it's it is in part a historical text. It is true that the gospels are written closer to the time of Jesus than for example what you find with the Old Testament. The Old Testament had a long chronology. But I just want to pick up on this point which is that I think you guys are right. One of the most beautiful things about Christianity is how the concept of love and that this is a God who loves you, who died to save you, who died and sacrificed himself for your sins is an incredibly powerful concept and it draws people in and Christians in because it's it's the concept of almost a child loving lovingly saved by a parent. That is brilliant and I admire that about Christianity. I go to services, Catholic services with my husband and I think that's really a beautiful thing. Um I do think that you know that that we should try to look for strengths in each religion. I think part of the thing that's really bothering me right now, the moment of time in which we're living in in the United States and really the world, we need to find bridges. We can't be tearing each other's part. We should recognize the differences, pay respect to the differences, and then try to see how we can build bridges between those differences. So, I love the concept of love in Christianity. I admire that. I adore that. I think the equivalent concept in Islam that can be drawn out is conscientiousness. And I think some of my co-fellows here can speak to that kind of a god consciousness that is really central in Islam.

Can I ask you guys a question? So I know al-masi is used as a title in 11 different suras in the Quran. Why is why like the a follower of the Messiah or the Messiah?

Yeah. Why is that term used to express who Jesus is, but it's not used for any other prophet?

That's part of the paradox of how Jesus is represented in the Islam in Islam and the Quran. He is really represented as a very special prophet. However, on the ground, in reality, Muslims venerate Muhammad much more than Jesus. But in the Quran, there's an exceptionalism associated to Jesus. Muslims adore and love Jesus. And so they do use the term Messiah. But it's not the same term that Christians use. It's not in the same vein.

Okay. I think that's contradictory.

Much in religion is contradictory.

The trinity makes sense. You guys have been making such great points. because I haven't jumped in yet because you've said a lot of things that I wanted to say. So, thanks for that. I think the trinity makes sense. I mean, it's a weird concept to wrap our heads around that one entity could exist in three different ways, but we see it in the baptism of Jesus. Everybody heard the voice of God speak. So, that's one. They saw Jesus, too. And the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove. So, all three members of the Trinity were there, which is pretty cool. And sure, it's hard to wrap our heads around how one thing could be three different things at the same time, but it makes sense to me.

Yeah. And you know what? The reason why it makes sense to me is because it comes from the source that there's one being, there's one God in three different forms, right? Um, and because we believe in one God, so we respect that that you guys believe that this is one source. Um and that's why it makes sense to me. Um not not in the intricate details going moving forward but the fact that this is about one God. That's how it makes sense to me.

Also in the Quran it talks about God being uh everything and everywhere. And so it's when when for us God is not like this one figure of a he because the the God describes itself as it he she they all the different pronouns and so in that sense too it is a multi-spirited multi- um faceted uh entity that is all the the creator of all things of all things and so and that's why for me it was like you know yes and at the same time.

Yeah. I like that we have this in common, you know, that we know that God is for everything, everyone. And I love the commonalities. I think that's what is beautiful. I just wanted to say that as well. I know there's a difference in what the Trinity is, but as women, we're here to talk about what are some of our similarities and how you were saying about the bridge, you know, and that that's really important. Um, it does come to some times though that, you know, when it comes to we go back to that question, Jesus, because it's a relationship. It's a relationship and it would be like someone asking me to deny my child or so I have a relationship with a person and we have total respect of that.

Thank you. I see that's where I love that.

Yeah. No, but that's the thing that's that's kind of like that's the teaching of the Quran.

Yeah. I I disagree with your description just a moment ago about God being everything and described as she. I would one be curious to know where those sources are because that is not anywhere in the biblical text. Um I I think in this generation of self-identification, I identify as this and I identify as that. Why can't God identify the way that God identifies? There's a saying that I saw and it says Jesus is not who you say who you think he is. He is who he says he is. And he has spoken about his character in scripture. And again, when you go back to the text, Deuteronomy 6:4, it says, "Here, O Israel, the Lord our God, is one God." The Hebrew word for one is ead. ED literally means one, like a team. It's the same word used in Genesis 2:24 that says the the the couple, the Adam and Eve, the two shall become one flesh. So, this denotes that there is more than one member involved, but they're one and they're they're unified. So I don't know like to throw blanket statements out um it really is confusing because to describe Jesus or God as being in everything that's pantheism and I'm not a pantheist.

Yeah, let me let me edit that. I think and correct me on if I'm wrong. I think what was meant there is that God's qualities are indescribable. Um there's so many infinite infinite but um I think you're right that um that uh you know you can't just get really new wavy about God cuz then there's nothing there right and I think the relationship part is really important with God or Jesus as God it's the relationship in which love mercy and really positive human values are promoted that relation relationship is very very important and I know ani meant just that that there's an infinitude of adjectives and Islam in essence a very egalitarian religion. So um Allah is to me is ne neither man nor woman. We we all can feel so much connected with Allah. If someone thinks Allah can understand a woman, Allah understands a woman's heart. So um there was plenty of examples like from Hajer to Mariam. To um Allah was with them very closely. So to me Allah is not um it's I have um I personally I have problem with accepting God or Allah as a man like as a man man.

Yeah. Can I say something?

Yeah. Can can I say something real quick? There is a um the opening passage of you know 99% of the Quran Quranic verses is the word raheem the root word of that word is womb. So God the most gracious, the most merciful and when that root word is womb, womb is the most uh nurturing and loving um space ever for us to come from. And that is how God in Islam describes itself. So you can't get more women than that or more women in character than that or more loving and compassionate than the womb.

Yeah, I think it really would go back to um the idea of I think it's we we get into that debate because we're all trying to define him on our own terms. that I think if we go back open the Torah or go back to an eastern religion they are they're going to talk about God as he reveals himself not as we identify him and I think the danger I think that we mostly are experiencing is what has happened in the west is we've tried to identify God on our terms and what makes sense to us and the the trinity is one of those is we have the camp that says well it's not written anywhere the word trinity you know you have that school and then you have those that are like well I completely understand it. The reality is is God has revealed himself as he has and he has called himself. He has called himself I am. And so for us, of course, we're going to say, well, we haven't seen it written because everything that we believe, we believe as it is written because that's what what God has revealed of himself through the scripture, through the written word, through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And so that is why I believe that we come to the terms that we do is that we don't decide. And God has decided and he's revealed it.

The Bible is inspired and preserved word of God.

Well, it tells us that it is. I think it's 2 Timothy 3:16, something like that. It says, "All scripture is God breathed and is profitable for teaching and instruction so that the man or woman of God can I forget the last part of it. You can look it up. Whoever you can correct." So we

Oh yes.

So we were talking about um uh when you were talking about how you know we are taking religion from our particular context and in some ways we are projecting uh that God in however we want to project God to be in some ways. Um and clearly many of you see now it's in black and white. It's this is this is what it is and this is not not what it is. But then you know when in the the you know how Christianity here was practiced for a long time and to a large extent too is this white Jesus right and so how do you rec so that kind of goes back to this earlier conversation that we had about about how um you know it it is a particular it has a political tone religion and it's not just a Christian thing it's in all religions And so I I just want to just I want to say that that's it. I want to say

I don't understand what that means. What is the white Jesus?

Like col like colonialization, systemic racism. Yeah. Um I think to your point about hysterosity, anybody who does their due diligence with studying the scriptures ends up not at a white Jesus. They end up at a Jewish man um who served Yahweh. So because people have tainted perverted the scriptures for their own political use and their own political gain doesn't take away from the fact that there is a real person Jesus and that's the Jesus that we acknowledge.

Yes.

One of the things I would comment on regarding this prompt that the Bible is the inspired um and preserved word. You know, I I do think it would behoove Muslims, I personally feel this way, to take the Christian scriptures on their merit, right? Rather than saying, okay, um um they corrupted their scriptures, their scriptures are invalid, the Quran does speak of injil, which means gospel. It does speak of Torah. obviously what that means. So it recognizes those scriptures but it recognizes them as kind of like a template or a model. And then most Muslims say, "Yeah, but the ones today, the ones that really Christians and Jews relate to and observe and and and believe, they're not really the real thing." I personally, as a Muslim, reject that interpretation. I would like my Muslim brothers and sisters to say to the Christian and even Jewish, you know, um um adherence, hey, we accept that your scriptures got codified. They're validated. They're a fixed corpus. We res respect and recognize them, and we um really um we might not accept everything in them, but we respect them. And uh I I think that will be a better way to build a bridge.

Definitely would build a bridge. But don't hate me. That's why I kind of did the this thing because I do believe it is like the preserved word of God. But just in studying Christianity uh we learn about the different councils that happened to before Roman Catholic and Protestant split when Roman Catholic was like you know in its infancy and trying to get their central dogmas. there were certain scriptures that they did keep out and there were certain um debate around theology that they wanted to crush and it could have been for like political reason right that's one consideration um but that's and I understand some of you are like well I'm not Catholic so I don't believe in what they did

I just want to say I agree that it is the inspired word of God for many different reasons um many people may not realize that almost 25% of the Bible talks about future events and you see those events being fulfilled throughout history not just in terms of the Bible but even with pagan kings. Isaiah 45 talks about a man named Cyrus that would become king of Persia and allow the Israelites to go back home and that was written 150 years before King Cyrus became the king of Persia. Um you see certain things in scripture that command the the Levitical command say wash your hands under running water. In the 19th century, doctors were still washing their hands in still water and contaminating um people throughout the hospital and more many people were dying. But God had the cheat code thousands of years before because he was telling them to do this a certain way. You see them talking about um you know containment of certain disease i.e. quarantining. Um there's other scriptures that say God sits on the circle of the earth when at one point in time history says no the world is flat. That has to be if that's a Bible that we can date back to 6,000 years ago, that means we can agree Google didn't exist. Whoever was writing this and with this divine accuracy had to be a divine being. And so when you look at the prophecies, you see that um this is inspired by a divine being, God, because it is accurate. When you look at again the plan for redemption, every other religious text essentially says if you do enough good deeds, it may outweigh your bad deeds and then maybe you can get to paradise. But God's in the in the scripture um it and I'm not trying to I didn't say that with disrespect. I just I'm a Christian so I say God. So I'm not trying to I didn't even say Allah so I I saw your facial expression but essentially yeah, I'm not saying that with any disrespect. Um but essentially um in scripture it says um in Proverbs it says many men proclaim their goodness but a faithful man who can find. We are not good. That's why we need a savior and that's why God sent his son to save us. So it describes the human condition perfectly. It predicts certain historical events perfectly. There's there's evidence archaeological evidence that support it like no other book. This has to be a word that is inspired by God.

Yeah. And to your point about the councils. So the process of canonization isn't just oh yucky I didn't like that book because of whatever preference or bias but there's historical attestation and textual criticism that was criticism that was associated with the books that were being chose to be canonized and there are plenty of known forgeries like the forgery of Mary Magdalene. So the scriptures that we have that we did codify that are canonized we have those because of the hysterosity and the validity.

associated with them. Just a point of clarification. I didn't think it was just like, oh, I don't like this one.

>> Yeah. To your point about political power, you know, removing certain >> books. But at that time, there was fierce debate about what Jesus like Jesus's role, whether Jesus is fully human, whether Jesus is uh fully God or like a mix between God and human. And so I was just like pointing out that this that this conversation has been going on for quite some time, even in Christian circles at its infancy.

I want to ask something. Um so for Christians it is um believing in Jesus and um as as God as the savior and uh your your sins are um washed away and all that. Don't you feel that that's kind of a copout? Because for me it's like you know you're going to be judged at the end of the day by your deeds and no one is going to be able to save you. It's only you can only save yourself by the deeds that you do. And then I we see we see in politics right now how people create claim to be Christians, but they're just really awful human beings. So how how do we reconcile that?

>> I was going to say that's a hard one. I agree with you. We can build a very firm bridge right there that there are a lot of Christians that are not best representing Christianity at all. Um and where it's very clear we do not worship the same God. Um and so I think the only way to reconcile that is that God revealed that he was the only answer to and that's the beauty of his mercifulness is that he is the one who can save us from those things. And so the whole point of you know it's not a copout to say you know my sin is paid for by Christ. I'm still responsible to live a life in purity and in righteousness but the thing is is I didn't have to earn it. And I think that's what separates Christianity from other religions is that I'm not earning my righteousness. Christ has earned that and because I have relationship with him. I'm righteous because he is because I'm in relationship with him. And it's not anything that I can earn. And if I have a mistake or, you know, and I, you know, decide to sin, I go before God. And that is where I say, you know, God, I lay, you know, my sin down and and forgive me. And because he's righteous and because we have that relationship, I repent. And so I still have to stand before him for the things that I do that I am supposed to do and whether or not I've done them, you know, but as far as my sin is concerned, only in relationship is that paid for. I can't I can't be in relationship with him, sin on the side a little, and then go, "Okay, he's going to he's going to sweep it up. fine. That's a misunderstanding what that looks like. Yeah. So, I don't, you know, sin on the side and then and and then expect God to pay for it. It doesn't work that way. It's in relationship and humility that I acknowledge that's the difference is not just repentance, but it's actually turning from that and going the direction I'm supposed to be living my life.

>> Islam is often misunderstood in the West due to cultural and political bias.

>> Yeah. Can I have two of this?

>> Yes. I mean, since I've lived in India for the most part of my life and then moved to the United States, um I see the differences. I see the difference in the way people perceive the way people um at some point even judge uh Islam. Um and um I feel that's you know as as as the prompt itself it's like because of the cultural differences because everything that we do depends on in a certain way our surroundings right so I feel like it's followed in a diff the essence remains the same they all all Muslims worship Allah but as God but um but the practices are different um the understanding is different and probably the lack of knowledge. That's that's that's like that's that's the key. Um I feel like a lot of people don't really read about it. Um and it's important it's you know you you it's important to know your religion before you speak about it but at the same time like you cannot you cannot be scholars. Not everyone can be scholars, right? So um I feel like um how a person represents himself does not speak for the entire community or um faith.

>> And it's not >> I think Bush, you're being very generous. I'm sorry because my my take is that there is an intentional u misinformation about Islam and Muslims in general and the fact that especially after 911 how we were all painted as terrorists you know hello I didn't vote for this guy you know so why am I being put in the same basket as a terrorist right and so and the media has been perpetuating this every time there's any um awful act in the name of Islam. It's always a headline, but you will never see you will never see Muslims like us that are like fighting it because we're also victims of it. The majority of the ones that are dead because of radicalism are Muslims.

>> And so that's this is what really riles me up.

>> So I think that the average religious adherent truly does not really read read their religious texts. And that goes for Christians. I just think that's a general rule of thumb that I have come to experience and um when I hear things like you know fundamentalism or extremism I don't think that that is in uh in line with uh I guess the Quran I think I think when I read the Quran I know that it's not written in chronological order and the very last chapter in the Quran would be surah nine and this is a chapter that begins with as a disavowal of all previous treaties. It disavows all treaties with Jews and with Christians. And it is a very this you can look it up. Sarah chapter 9.

>> Wow. I know where you get your source from.

>> I read it. I I read it multiple times before I came here. In fact, I was just reading it in the lobby before.

>> No, but it depends where you get your source from though. I mean, there's a lot of anti-Musl No, there's a lot of anti-Muslim content out there.

>> What's your larger point? So my larger point is that when you look at the text which is not something that um is denied or uh refuted, you see things like surah 9 verse 111 and it says um for Allah has purchased from you your life and your property in exchange for paradise that if you fight in Allah's way and you kill or kill then go um you will be granted paradise. And a lot of people don't know that or don't read that, but that to me is in line with those people that we would call extremists. They're actually just to me being good Muslims and they're following the text because that is what the chapter reads. It's not it's not an issue of okay that's a faulty um you know understanding of the text or um you know I know they have different grades sah and all these different things. This is the literal text. So when a devout Christian bombs uh you know an abortion facility uh do you accept that that devout Christian is also utilizing certain appropriate verses from the New Testament?

>> Jesus said turn the other cheek. Jesus teaches that do if you live by the sword you die by the sword. Jesus literally was crucified. He said I could have called on 12 legions of angels.

>> That's somebody who's devout who's extremist in the Christian.

>> They're not in line with the text is my point. But when someone the very last chapter of the Quran

>> Muslims then it's

>> because it's the last chapter of the Quran Christians do it is not in line. This is the that's a huge discrepancy.

>> That's the text. This is um Muhammad's marching orders. It's the very last. So that particular chapter is of extreme interest to me amongst other chapters but it's the last text and it's essentially the marching orders and I and as I stated it begins with the disavow of all previous treaties and it's very violent. It's very uncomfortable for me to read that text. I don't like it. I'm not putting things into the text or extrapolating things from my perspective. I think there are absolutely peaceful Muslims, but being a peaceful Muslim does not mean that

>> we're not Muslims. In other words, yeah.

>> No, I I think that there are people that can be peaceful, but when you look at the text, this is what it's essentially employing. So, first of all, um your chronology is incorrect. Um I can provide you with the sources. There's the the there are other suras or chapters that are chronologically the latest. But even if you were correct um it is the case that the certain chapters it is non-chronological and the chapters associated with Muhammad's life towards the end of his life that's when a lot of he there's a lot of pmical material like divisions between him and other member and other faith communities because he was trying to carve out a community himself. But I don't want to really go that route. I would really like to hear from others about this this prompt because you represent one among five and all of your four fellows did not agree with you.

Well, for I answered green to this. I'm going to take a detour. Um, I answered green to this because I noticed politically with Islam versus Christianity, you guys have a lot of similar like core values that are more conservative. Um, like things around identity, sexuality, but those things aren't necessarily to people. And I've watched Christians get dragged through the mud because we are so open about our values and what we believe the scripture says around, you know, ethic, sexual ethic, identity, politics. And so I think it's interesting because I feel like or even the way that Christians are persecuted. You know, you you say you're a Christian online and people start, you know, making fun of you and saying that you worship Sky Daddy, etc. But I don't feel like people necessarily do that with Islam. It seems like there's more of a public respect at least in this gener at least in this generation. At least at least in this generation.

>> Yeah. You know, I think you're on to something.

>> At least in this like Gen Z. Yeah. Gen Z millennials.

>> Like being a Christian right now is the worst religion you could be. I think you guys is the ridicule. But the ridicule is not coming from Muslims though, right? No, I'm not saying it's coming from Muslims, but I'm talking about it being political because I think that there's more of an openness to Islam, maybe because you guys aren't necessarily communicating some of those more conservative values in a way that there isn't with Christians.

>> It's the the the narrative in within Muslim communities in America is actually very very conservative and that's dominant narrative particular on sexuality and on you know all that. Um and that's that's where we complete I completely disagree with a conservative uh strand of Islam. I think the moment in time in which we live um you know Gen Z, millennials, Gen Z and even Gen the next generation I think you know um because of the internet and because of the digital age you know people can the the younger generations are much more adept at using the internet and the digital uh media social media and so they're seeing some of the hypocrisies that they're perhaps their parents and grandparents have set forth and I think they have a curiosity of their own and they can use the media to learn about religion in a different way. I also think that Gen Z and millennials, you know, are realizing, hey, look, um, you know, uh, I went to college with somebody who was Muslim or Jewish or Hindu, and you know what, we were best buds. We got along really well. They traveled together. They lived together. And I'm just I just think that there's um and I and I think that millennials and Gen Z also because they feel the scarcity over their own resources. You know, it's it's hard to pay for things. It's hard to find jobs. It's hard to really have the standard of living that your parents and grandparents had. And so they have they have a reservoir reservoir of empathy and sympathy for the other who's also disadvantaged whether it's blacks or it's Jews or it's Latinos or it's Muslims or however you want to call it. And I think um I think uh that's what's going on and I think you're on to that.

>> The next the next gen is no no generation.

>> No, I mean that's what they say because of the environment.

>> Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's the other thing I wanted to point out. But I think there's more of a consciousness of how our planet, how earth, you know, has, you know, their their big issues regarding, you know, disparity of wealth and uh resources and and sustainability. We're not given the We're not given the platform.

>> Well, Tik Tok is for everybody.

>> No. Well, >> well, it's in algorithms. you're not going to like there's literally why they call it like Muslim Tik Tok and Christian Tik Tok. I do agree like it could be blended to some extent, but there are videos that I'm going to see that you probably won't see. And so to and it's just based on algorithms. So I do see some of these videos about Muslims being more conservative and some being less conservative. Just like any religious group or ethnic group, we're not a monolith. we all interpret like and have our own personal relationship with God and the text. So, um to say like, "Oh, we're not open." It's a shock to me because I grew up knowing like no sex before marriage. Uh man and woman, that's what marriage is. I think maybe the reluctancy is that people accuse us of trying to put forth Sharia law into uh like American politics when actually like the um politics that are being pushed that are saying like are more Christian belief, they're kind of related to like what many Muslims believe. Like so Christians that are saying marriage should be between man and woman, most Muslims are going to agree that's that required for a religious marriage. It's probably not said because it's just understood. Maybe that's and we don't want to have that connotation.

>> My religion empowers women.

>> I'm going to say back and forth. Um, as a professor who is a woman in the Christian denomination, I do depending where I teach, it can vary based on where they value a woman's voice. Um, but it really does come down to denominational. Um, I would say the true Christian voice, the one that does honor God and what his word says will honor women because we see Jesus living that example. Um, so I think the reason why I go back and forth is even though it's written, it's not best represented always. And I think that's what we see which can often make Christianity not look so great. And so, um, I'll probably stand there as a voice and say we don't do the best job. And I say a we because we're a people and we miss it sometimes. And in this day and age, we see it. We see it on social media. We see it um even in our own churches. And so, but it always I will go back to what the word says and what we should be doing is we should be representing um a scripture, a belief system that values women because God created us in his image. And so,

>> I think this is probably the strongest bridge we'll build today. Um that we all see our faith as maybe like our foundation. And like you said, the word you go back to it and that's exactly what I think uh drew some of the misconceptions that come out like not to call anyone out but to say like oh I thought women weren't valued in Islam. Sometimes there's like intersectionality. So some cultures maybe in that particular culture they're stepping outside of the religion and they're putting some sort of patriarchal cultural spin on what they believe uh societal role should be. Um, so I always look towards our religion just like you said. So I love that. Um, we have like strong examples of women in Islam. Uh, and I know sometimes we Google and we see these uh, misconceptions about the wives. But Khadijah, for example, peace be upon her, the prophet's first wife. She was a strong independent woman that had her own career, made her own money before she even met the prophet. So um to me as like a person that uh models herself as someone that is goal oriented that's successful in my own right. I look to her as an example that I don't need like a man would be like a compliment. I don't need someone to uh have self-fulfillment right. I don't need uh to depend on a man's money. And that's another thing I like in Islam. My money is my money. just a yeah

>> that's in scripture

>> that's an important point that Islam actually um uh is I think the first scripture to explicitly state that women's property that women can be own property because in many many scriptural traditions and women were thought of as property Islam does say that women can own property now there are issues with inheritance laws where women inherit less than men in the Quran. So there is that problem there. But

>> you have to see the good is there that Islam says women can own property, they can inherit their own property and the husband, the father etc. or the brother cannot take away from that. On the other hand, the degree to which they can inherit property is less than for example the male counterpart. So that's a problem.

>> Sorry, just to clarify, it's because of reasons of obligation. And so like my brother would be obligated to use his share to make sure he takes care of my mom and that she but my my share I don't like if I want to be generous I could help with my mom but that's like the reason for the split of like the

>> those uh these legal things have a lot of we can explain it in many other ways we can even make it like even that's different case But when when I talk about my religion, it empowers women in this empowers me specifically when I I go back to the stories of the

>> those women and in in Islam we have uh one um like specific duty we have to go to pilgrimage to Mecca that we call Hajj and that's basically is we are remembering Hajera or Hagar that's a biblical character what she did Hagar uh she did um to save her little child

>> we for thousands of years people are doing exactly doing the same thing was Hagar ran between Salfa and Marwa to to between two mountains to save her little kid to give her uh to give him a little bit of drop of water and that's we are re reenacting we are performing like years after years following the that hear's footsteps and here yes I I also always get into debate with the nowadays mainstream Muslims that they they are practicing what he did but they are not really remembering

>> the essence of

>> her name they are but if if as a woman I can see that we are we are focusing on a woman's um like hugeness how she connected with God to save her kid it's it's about saving human being like next generation saving it's if we can see in that way it's a huge idea that Islam is um still

>> I want to go back to what you said about Islam. Did you say Islam is the first religion that acknowledged women and let them have property?

>> Islam is the first religion scripturally scripturally that acknowledge that women can own property and that they're not to be treated as property.

>> I'd like to refer you to the Old Testament thousands of years ago. There's a man named Zalafahad. How's that for a mouthful? He only had daughters. So when he died, what were they supposed to do? They went to the leader at the time of the Joshua was Moses. They went to Moses and said, "What do we do?"

>> And he let them have property.

>> And that's a wonderful example. Um and I think that that you know there are instances in the old uh in the Old Testament that you can cite and I love those instances. However, um in Islam, that's a there's a very explicit statement with regard to women can own property and it has had legal implications in so far as Islam and Sharia law. And so when a woman gets married, if she inherits property from her family, uh in theory, the husband is not allowed to co-opt that property. I'm just giving you an example. I'm married to a Roman Catholic and you know Roman Catholicism is a very jeritical relig religion and interestingly enough um it was kind of hard for my husband in a state of community property which California is to accept that I come from a background or an Islamic background where for example Khadijah his first wife was cited as having her own company where women can actually own their own property retain their own property protect their own property propert invest their own property. He found that very difficult because uh it's not so clearly spelled out for example in the New Testament or the Old Testament. There are instances but I will say that in practice in reality women Muslim women get ripped off all the time by their own kin when it comes to property. So in theory it's there.

>> Well it's it's in multiple places in the Old Testament. There was a woman in Proverbs 31 and there's so many verses about how she ran her own business and she considers a field and she buys it with her own money. So

>> I think Quran was a great I think if Quran is written after the Old Testament and the prophet used the Old Testament the Torah um to corroborate the Quran then you have to kind of concede the point that the Bible the biblical narrative does promote equality amongst women and property ownership. That's again I'm like regarding these legal topics this

>> this changes because of the power dynamics it's I I so we can still hope that it will it will transform gradually but I I want to talk about like the essence of my religion like when um in in Islam we are directly connecting to God there would be no other person And that's where I feel so powerful like I'm directly connecting to my God and that God is not to me it's not a man like it it's not a man or woman but I can connect with that that power and at the same time in Islam no one is no one is liable for my bad deeds or good deeds. I am the only person who would be directly uh confronting God. I have to answer my

>> this goes back to the first prompt that we serve different gods.

>> Our God is called he him father. That is the only way he's

>> go back to the first to this prompt about women's rights please. And if I like to I like to say something is that the Quran has you know all these verses about the equality between men and women etc etc. And like I said, you know, the first female imam was appointed by Prophet Muhammad and so on and so forth. But in reality, the patriarchy is what's really taken over scripture and has used culture. The the cultural is very misogynistic and patriarchal. And what they've done in order to justify it is then to camouflage it and wrap it around religion. That's the problem um of how Islam is being practiced in most Muslim societies. And I know this too well because that's the work that I do. And so um it's undermining the patriarchal system that has um usurped the beautiful scriptures of equality and egalitarian values in Islam.

>> Christian and Muslim women have more in common than they realize. Um I do feel we have a lot in common be um and I think that's what's beautiful about being a woman.

>> Yeah.

>> That we we we really do have a lot in common. Um we also believe in one God and that's very powerful. We just don't agree on who the God is. And so um I did want to just go back to uh so there are a lot of beauty beautiful things. Um the womb is a very special place to um you know carry your life and it is very powerful. Um there's just so many beautiful things um that we do have in common. However um again when you were saying about well we just have one God. We have one God who is triune, you know. So, it's not like we're not respecting the Holy Spirit or Jesus or God. We have our one God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which is the prophets and people that you, you know, refer to. And so, I just want to go back to the same love I feel towards you is the same kind of love that I feel towards Jesus. But it's it's and I don't mean that like you're Jesus. What I mean is I have a relationship and now that I've met you, I have a relationship with you. And my relationship with God is what he says in his word. And I'm not here to defend what I think or feel. I'm here to just allow us to have a conversation about what God has told us in the word. you have another material that you listen to. Um, and I just do feel we have things in common um, as women and in culture and in different sects of our uh, religion and all these different ways where you know we do feel misunderstood or I was raised Catholic. My mother was banned from the church because we were um, she was my father left us at four. We grew up very poor. That didn't mean that I didn't love the father, son, and the holy spirit. That didn't mean that I didn't get saved at 13 years old. That didn't mean that Jesus wasn't the same Jesus that he always was. It just means that we live in a world that has these issues. And we love God.

>> We love God.

>> I I I love what you said and I want you to know that I don't feel like you need to justify your belief system at all. I I I totally accept. However you want to believe in your belief system, I totally accept, not tolerate, accept. So I don't feel like you need to justify it for me.

>> I agree with Annie because that's what the Quran teaches too that you accept, you respect, and you honor

>> the other person's faith.

>> Yes. And then the other thing I did want to say was um I just lost it again, but um maybe it'll come back to me. Um Jesus who came. I think a lot of people see Jesus as oh the baby Jesus. Oh Jesus is just so sweet and oh we just get to sin. And Jesus is coming back.

>> Yes he is.

>> Okay. He is coming back. He's coming back with a sword. He's gnarly. He's got a lot of justice. And he did so many things. Okay. Turned over the table. He is not just this man, you know. No.

>> No. Jesus

>> was radical for women, for children, for black, for white, for Jew, for not, for whatever. And it's just a little insulting when people to me don't see Jesus for the Jesus who's in Revelation,

>> like why we're here, why we're saved, where we're going.

>> Why is it so important that he come back? It's not important that he comes back. Well, it is important that he comes back, but he said he was coming back. So, it's not like we're placing the value on it ourselves. It's that he said when he's coming back, he's dividing bone and marrow. He's dividing households, mothers and daughters, sons and and daughters and and mothers and fathers and grandfathers and grand like he's dividing everyone based on this our belief in him as God

>> and actually Islam has that too that he will be coming back.

>> Yeah. So I I love you. I love that you guys are

>> And so to go back, why is it important that he's coming back? Oh,

>> so um I think the reason I asked you that question was we were talking about Muslim and Christian women and how they have a lot in common. And I was trying to relate how the coming back of Jesus is connected to that. So I just want to visualize a Jesus who comes back and the first two people he hugs is a woman and a child. Okay. So that makes me feel good that

>> But why is it important? You said you asked me a question and I was just curious why is it important that he come back.

>> Um well I think speaking as a Muslim and then also as one who's married to a Christian namely a Catholic. Um like I said I think it's a brilliant and beautiful and powerful thing in Christianity that it convinces its believers. And I think

>> no I'm asking about your God. Why is it important that he come back?

>> You said you're

>> right. I'm I'm about to explain that that that that Jesus gave himself to save mankind or humankind, right? So I think to me that kind of sacrifice is like the highest uh embodiment of love. So I'm all in favor of love and if there's anything that should never die and always be there and if it goes away let it come back is love. So I believe and I think even in Islam there's a recognition of the virgin birth. There's a recognition of Jesus.

>> But you're not answering my question.

>> I can answer that question.

>> Thank you.

>> So what Islam says is Jesus is coming back and that is to set things right. And that is a part of it of the fact that Rukaya just mentioned to bring and spread more love that we can see day in and day out is just evaporating from the face of earth.

>> Well, Revelation says when Jesus comes back, he's coming back with judgment and with wrath. So, he came as a lamb the first time, a lamb led to slaughter on our behalf. And now when he comes back, he's coming back as the king of kings and the lord of lords. And that's why the word says at the end of the day, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that the Lord is Jesus Christ. I was going to say I love how devoted you guys are. I love your scholarship. I love that you guys clearly have a connection to something. Um, but I think the commonality has to be Jesus. Like that's what our faith hinges on and it's not just Jesus the prophet. CS Lewis says either Jesus was insane or he was the son of God. There's no room for grayer in between because of the miracles because of the resurrection with the 500 eyewitness accounts because of his ascension to heaven because he's coming back. So we have to acknowledge him as one or the other. And so that's what the basis of us building that bridge would be.

>> Well much of a bridge I want to complete my thought actually because Donna asked us a question that why is it important in your religion and that's why it's important in our religion. Now, what I've noticed is

>> wait, I'm sorry. I didn't understand though. So, it's important for your God to come back for what reason?

>> For love.

>> No. Where? Why is it important in our religion that Jesus comes back? Right. That's

>> Oh, I I misunderstood you. I'm sorry. I thought you were saying that Muhammad or whatever you believe is coming.

>> They said Jesus to spread.

>> We're not even talking about

>> We're not even talking about Muhammad.

>> But I'm glad you were excited about Jesus coming because we're talking about commonality. What I've noticed is what we're doing here is I know you know um when we're talking about these prompts and we're talking about commonalities and differences we're bringing we're bringing our uh belief our faith in in because we're talking about that but what I noticed is that we're not really doing that in terms of you know we have many verses in Quran that says something or the other what we're going by right now specifically I'm speaking for my group is we're going by what we feel we're going by what we're seeing we're going by by what's happening around in terms of x worse right like we're not we're not really but in response to of course questions raised like you know u the surah 9 firstly it was completely misled the whole conversation was misled the uh the information is not true it's false so I wanted to bring back to those things that if we actually sit down in the intricacies of what each verse says from the Bible or from the Quran we We'll have we have tons to talk about and it's going to be an endless conversation. But the reason why we're here is because when you practice a faith, you have something. There's there's a common feeling. There's a feeling of oneness. There's a feeling of kindness. There's a feeling of love. There's a feeling of uplifting others, respecting others, honoring others. And that's what Quran teaches us. Which is why we as a team did not dive deep into oh this is what the Quran in this chapter or this page or this verse because what really we're going by the intent. Um Islam is all about intention. That's where it starts. That's where it ends. Um it starts like Annie mentioned with Rahman which means that the god that our god is most merciful. um which is which like like again we can have it in different for me that mercy comes in in ways more than one of course that I get to wake up and I get to experience love every day I get to spread love every day I get to understand how others feel and since we believe that there's only one god and there's one creator we believe that we're all created by that creator and so there there cannot be more to that and kind of like we could we can actually you For me, it's like you are created by Allah. I am created by Allah. God. And so we're we have that's like the biggest commonality.

>> Yes. But the biggest difference is is Jesus is God. And we believe in the father, son, and the holy spirit, which you don't. And I don't go my life by how I feel or I think or I it's none of that. It's what God says, what is written because it's alive. You know, the word is alive and it's a double-edged sword and it it and it it really gives me my life because I lived a life before I became a Christian by how I felt and it wasn't pretty.

just I just want to express gratitude for allowing for debate and exchange and and I I think I speak for all of us when I say we appreciate listening to you and we hope to be better listeners and uh we hope to find better ways of sharing. Thank you.

And I'm thankful to this conversation because I had this misconception that Muslims are more conservative and extreme in some cases. But here I saw totally different case. So [Music]