Transcription
The US Congress has announced hearings into MK Ultra. The CIA is not going to like this. And we're going to talk about how the CIA used MK Ultra to create assassins to undermine governments. Does this mean that the CIA is being taken down?
Hey Roxan, thank you so much for making yourself available.
>> Sure. Happy to be here.
>> Yes, and I'm happy to have you. I'll have the links in the description below where people can find you. So, come on. Come on. Is this the end of the CIA? Come on. Is Trump going to do what JFK didn't manage to do?
>> We can only hope. Um, yeah. Our favorite saying on my show is that we want to destroy the CIA, level it, and then bury nuclear waste on top of it so that no one goes around it ever again. Um, just make it toxic forever because it's been toxic forever. And then hopefully one will neutralize the other.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. We won't have an increasing a compounding toxicity.
>> But
>> so it it sorry I just want to say cuz JFK did get rid of or he sacked Alan Dulles and my understanding is that what Dulles did was he set up a sort of secret back group CIA to take down JFK.
>> Yeah. He fired Allan Dulles along with Lyman Limitsker who was the chairman G uh chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff by moving him to NATO and we all know what NATO does. So it didn't limit his um capability to wreck havoc on the world. Um, but um, yeah, so he fired Allan Dulles um and um it wasn't so that was in the early 1960s. It wasn't until several um things like obviously the Bay of Pigs um was very very bad but you had um the overthrow in um Brazil um in uh the later um part you had um operations um in Vietnam. Um, you had operations um we overthrew Indonesia in the '60s. Um, and so you had several of these operations that were going on and there were there was information that was coming out. And then after the fiasco of Vietnam and the exposure of the Phoenix program um in the earlier um 70s, then we overthrow Chile and that was kind of the final straw because most of the um operations that went into overthrowing the Chilean government and killing Salvador Allende um got more and more well-known. Um, it wasn't as well-kept as far as the secret goes. And so in the mid 1970s there were congressional hearings, the famous one, the Church um commission um and a lot of the they called it the Year of Intelligence. A lot of the um information about some of these previous programs that had went on in the 1950s and 60s got exposed during those hearings. One of which was the they referred to it as MK Ultra. It originally started out as Project Artichoke.
>> Um, that's the precursor to
>> Yeah, I know. That's actually the precursor to MK Ultra.
>> MK Ultra is a much better name for a secret spy project rather than Artichoke. Oh, Artichoke originally um was um designed to research methods of interrogation. This came out as a result of the Korean War. So, we had people captured um during the Korean War and several of them actually talked on camera and the word back in the United States was well, they're obviously there's some mystical something that they they're doing to these people to make them talk because they're not supposed to talk. So, they con they tried to convince the American people it was a ruse. They knew um because they debriefed these people um that there wasn't any mystic or torture um interrogation or any of this other stuff. They just didn't want to die. And so they used that as the impetus to justify all of this research into how to withstand intensive interrogation. Now, obviously, you have to interrogate somebody extensively in order to be able to come up with formulas to counteract that. Well, it just so happens that um we had all kinds of operations going on at the time. You know, we did the first attempted coup of um Indonesia um in the like 1956 time frame. We were in Guatemala in 1954. We overthrew that government. So we have opportunities to collect up all these people and use as specimens on interrogation.
>> Um, as we kind of move around um by the late 19 um 50s there's a lot of stuff going on in Malaya with the UK and the UK has a counterprogram to this as well. It just has never been um because the UK, if you look at what they did in Malaya, which eventually becomes Malaysia, um they basically did a mini Phoenix program to include using Agent Orange and all that stuff in Malaya before we ever even did it in um Vietnam. They did the mass burning of villages, relocating people, interrogating them, and all of this stuff that just never gets talked about anywhere. So um that's basically um what Artichoke was. It also delved into the beginnings of what becomes MK Ultra where they were because interrogation is about mind control, right? To be able to um kind of disassociate yourself with the physical torture and kind of take yourself to a safe place in order to withstand um and live another day. And so they were looking at mind control, hypnotics, um forced addiction, um like giving people morphine, LSD. Um they thought that if they gave them enough LSD that they could induce amnesia, um and put people in a vulnerable state where they could basically be more talkative, um and answer more questions. They used cocaine, marijuana, heroin, mescaline, um, and all kinds of different narcotic drugs, um, and did experiments. Now, for us in the United States, a lot of the test subjects for these horrific experiments were on people that were incarcerated in prisons. um they used um children that were in um state care. um and so they basically any vulnerable population that was completely unaccounted for was a potential target for these people um to do these types of things. But again, most of that information has come out and it came out in the 1970s. Um MK Ultra officially began in 1953 according to um the CIA and supposedly went away in 1973. There's a lot of controversy about whether it ever went away cuz um if you're me and you look at what happened in the 1970s and 80s with the torture programs and the drug experimentations, it clearly did not go away in 1973. They just got caught in 1973 and it got exposed. But just like Operation Gladio, being caught and exposed didn't mean it went away.
>> Yeah. The exposure has to be ongoing. That Okay. Bloody hell. The prisoners and children in care homes. So children in care homes really have no one.
>> They have no one. you know their if their parents are alive I don't know what the rules are in terms of access that those parents would have or how capable those parents would be of advocating for their children we're not talking about middle class resourceful parents here right these are damaged messed up parents and then the prisoners well what rights do they have now I am I right in assuming the prisoners wouldn't necessarily have consented to this or they wouldn't even know it was going on Right.
>> Correct. And then what I'm reminded of and you're talking about something that I think is much much worse is I know about the Tuskegee experiment which wasn't MK Ultra. It wasn't CIA, but how the Department of Health gave these uh African-American sharecroppers, the poorest of the poor, uh syphilis and then tracked them for 50 years or so.
>> Where did you go? Oh, I'm still here. And just them for 50 years or so and never told them that we've given that they'ved been given syphilis. Just horrendously cruel. And if a if a nation if a spy agency is capable of doing that to its own people, the people it's supposed to be protecting, well then people in other nations like in Indonesia and Chile and Ecuador, they don't stand a chance cuz they definitely are the other. Okay, please carry please carry on, folks.
>> Okay, so when it got to the next stage, which is MK Ultra, they kind of expanded um the it ended up being like 60 subprograms. They all had names. Um so one of the most horrific ones was the electroshocks. So they wanted to determine how people respond to being electrocuted basically. Um that was done in both Canada and the United States.
>> Okay.
>> Are you there?
>> Yeah, I I'm here. Roxan, sorry if I I didn't freeze unless there's some problem with the internet, the signal. I'm I'm just dumbstruck and I'm wondering what kind of a person what for the people that were doing that what has to go through their head or I'm going to electrocute this person here to find out what it's like how alienated and psychotic do they have to be?
>> Well, you have Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms, um, and Gotlieb, um, were Sydney Gotlieb were basically the guys running this program. Um, Allan Dulles is like no person I've ever studied at all. He is soulless and evil. um he uh his son was in the military during the Korean War and had a head injury. He sent his um son up to the Canadian doctor doing the electroanalysis shocking treatment and had it done on his son. He had a niece that they viewed was a little off and use CIA doctors to give her a lobotomy. He literally is the very definition of walking evil. He's soulless. Um, and there's many, um, stories I could tell you, um, because I've done extensive research into him. Um, no mission was too hideous for him. Um, regardless of what, um, people were warning the potential consequences were, he didn't care. Um, so I want to go into a little bit about this electroshock thing because it's so critical. But basically um the the uh hypothesis was that they could completely destroy your mind and then build you back to be like a Manchurian candidate type of a person where they could rebuild your mind in order to allow you to be an assassin and not remember what you did.
>> Okay. like the Manchurian Candidate movies.
>> Yes. Um it involved h um hypnotics um sensory deprivation um also sexual abuse like breaking a person um via sexual abuse and other forms of torture. And so what I find fascinating um is on the electroshock it wasn't just at your brain. Um, so if you delve into Operation Condor, which is like Gladio's cousin in um, South America, when the CIA, using USAID's Office of Public Safety as cover, would go into these countries that they just overthrew, they set up a national police and a national guard in all of these countries. And then they would go around and anybody that didn't like the dictator that they had picked and installed in these countries, they were referred to as gorillas. Even though they were citizens, they didn't just wanted their elected president back that you just ran out of the country or killed. Um, they labeled them psychologically as gorillas. And then they use the um illegitimate national police that the CIA had just trained to kidnap these people and they put them in black site prisons. And there's many survivors of them, although a lot of them died, but there are many survivors and you can read their testimony. They would spend months and months in like blacked out um or rooms with not that was completely lit. So there was never any darkness. Um and when they were tortured they they set up um a USD generator. Initially they were using the old TACP phones that used to crank and generate an electrical signal. Um and they put electrodes on it and put them on people's body parts. They would stick a rod in your ear. Um, they killed many people doing that. They would um attach these clips to men's testicles um and penis. They would put rods inside of women and then just shock the hell out of them. Um, and they did horrendous torture to people and they're writing all of this down. There's a doctor right there. They're writing all of this down. How long did it take the person to uh break? They're literally using this as a worldwide laboratory. on um how this whole process is done um to know what is effective and what isn't effective um uh as far as torture goes. They they wrote a torture manual um that was later um released. It was um part of the School of the Americas in Panama that we sent all of the military dictators. That was one of the funny things that Maduro said. Um, and most people who've not done this research wouldn't even have got the joke. But when Trump was calling Maduro a dictator, he says, "I can't be a dictator. I didn't graduate from the School of the Americas." Because all of the dictators that the CIA installed were from the School of the Americas. Um, and so, um, they did some really horrific things. Um the the one of the most notorious ones of um MK Ultra was done with um LSD. It and that's a whole interesting story, but the LSD was um they basically bought all of the LSD and used it through MK Ultra as mind-altering experiments. One of the most notorious ones was they had a bunch of hookers out in San Francisco and they would give the John LSD, have the hooker have sex with them and then record how the response was. And they were doing this through a two-way mirror. So there literally wasn't any bound to um any of this.
>> Yes, this was all done secretly right away from the prying eyes of Congress and no scrutiny. And then part of it what what I'm learning from you and others on my channel is that they're using drug trafficking as a way of gen and human trafficking as a way of generating off-book revenue
>> to fund all these activities. So they don't have to put in their budget application, uh, we need to buy a certain number of diodes and rods to stick inside people.
>> Yes.
>> Now, but some of those stuff was used with appropriated funds. As a matter of fact, the electric um, leads that they used to hook up to those generators were shipped from the United States in diplomatic State Department packages, so they didn't have to go through customs.
>> Right. But but they needed that to get their radios to work and their their radio transmitters. That's that's what that was.
>> Sure.
>> Something like that.
>> Yeah. Okay. So that's the electrocution. Now you said there was 60 different programs.
>> Yeah. Um so
>> was there was there one particular process that was more effective than any other?
>> Well, it was all doing different things. Um, so there was one called MK Often and that was to test the behavior. I just have a note a few notes on um a whole bunch of different ones, but I'll just tell you a couple of them. MK Often was to test behavioral and toxicology effects of certain drugs and they use both humans and animals on that one. Um, there was another one called MK Chick Wit T. Um, and that was to use specific drugs that had been developed in Europe in Asia. Um, because don't forget um we saved the guy that ran um I think it was 731 is the nomenclature on the bioweapons lab that the Japanese set up in China. Um, they had that horrific lab up there where they took all kinds of diseases. They cut people open alive and put these diseases in them and see how long it took them to die. Um, yeah, they saved that guy. Um, and as a matter of fact, um, nothing ever happened to him. We brought him to the United States to Fort Dietrich and basically took all of his notes and went over all the stuff that he had done. Um, took a lot of the specimens out of the labs, brought him here, and um, then he goes back to Japan and lives the rest of his life and dies of old age after having conducted all of those horrific experiments.
>> Jeez. Okay. And what's the thinking behind all this? like how did the CIA justify this to itself for doing these activities?
>> Well, the justification is initially in especially with the Japanese guy, well, somebody's going to develop these things, so we might as well have them and develop the counter to it. And so, it just gives you free reign to do whatever the hell you want under the guise of defense. So, growing up in the military, everything is couched in biodefense. We're not doing anything offensive except for we're doing everything offensive. Um, but we're doing everything that we do, it's couched in a defensive mechanism. So, we have this thing out there. So, we have to play with that thing to come up with a defense against that thing. um except for what happens is whatever the defense is usually ends up being worse than the actual thing and we just lived through that with COVID, right? They actually created it. They created the spike protein here in the United States. Then they move it to China, weaponize it in a lab funded primarily by the United States, and it's out just in time for interference in the 2020 election um to justify mail-in voting. And then we have to come up with this antidote to it, which is this um shot that is classified illegally as a vaccine. and that it's worse than the actual um uh bacteria, you know, biological um weapon that they created called COVID.
>> So, sorry, Roxan, I have to I have to disagree with you here. How dare you besmirch such a safe and effective medical intervention. I have hourly boosters and I hope you're having hourly boosters too, cuz it's so safe and so effective. That's for the YouTube algorithm. I never had that toxin.
>> You see how they can twist that whole thing around and justify playing with these very dangerous things um under the guise of creating a defense against them. But how about we just don't have them to begin with?
>> But but isn't it the case? Well, I don't know if it is the case. I'm speculating here, right? But other countries will be doing the same. the Russians, the Soviets, China, India, the British, would they not be doing similar?
>> I don't know of any programs. I mean, Japan was obviously doing it before World War II or during World War II. Um, but I don't know who's doing it now. Um, and I'm not aware of any of these programs not having then been taken to use offensively. Um, so there has to be a and And the to me the actual answer to your question if you live in a republic is a conversation with the people about what the solution to that is not doing all of this stuff behind closed doors and then deploying and testing them on the citizens themselves.
>> Yeah. No. Yes. That's criminal. That's absolutely criminal. That undermines the republic completely. Okay. No, bad question coming. Does this work? Is it effective? Has it been used that we know about effectively?
>> What
>> the MK Ultra strategy to create assassins? And
>> so,
>> does this does this explain Barack Obama?
>> I'm not going to say it explains him. I'm not sure other than him being a Manchurian candidate um in the very sense of the word. Um so maybe that is the success story. There has been people um as a matter of fact there's a lot of evidence that um Charles Manson was part of the MK Ultra experiments with the killing of Sharon Tate and all those people out in Los Angeles.
>> Okay. So for for the Europeans here, Charles Manson was a serial killer in the United States. Manson murders.
>> Yes.
>> How many?
>> But there's a lot of serial killers that all somehow saw the same doctors affiliated with MK Ultra. The Unabomber was one of them,
>> right?
>> Um so what was that? And are we going to find out that all of our serial killers are actually MK Ultra victims? Um, you know, the the the bad thing about all of this was that when they found out that they were actually going to have to testify in front of Congress, um, Sydney Gotlieb and the people that were still at the CIA tried to destroy everything that was written ever about MK Ultra. They tried to destroy everything. Unfortunately for them, there were like several boxes in another area that had been misfiled um that was all about MK Ultra. And that's why we know what we do know. What we don't know got destroyed um on purpose by the CIA,
>> right?
>> the little the horrific parts that we do know is due to misfiling. God knows what the rest of the stuff was because we'll never know.
>> Okay. And then I wonder
>> even after all even after all of this and um Sydney Gotlieb was named as the guy doing it, not a damn thing ever happened to him. He retired from the CIA and died of old age. What kind of retirement do you have? But I think I think the problem the challenge for you and I, Roxan, is that we have values such as compassion and empathy and a repugnance of cruelty to other people. So it just it's just an inab I I can't get my head around it. Can't How do you have to be to to do that? And then how can you live with yourself? would be a very evil soulless person to do that.
>> Yeah. Okay. I imagine that they would have CIA would have connected with insurgencies abroad and connected with done this work on behalf of other spy agencies perhaps that they would have
>> Oh, they they definitely other spy agencies all knew what was going on. Yes. I mean, just like I was saying, the Japanese guy was here. We had Paperclip. We had all of the guys that were doing all the experiments um in Germany. They were all here. Um, they share all of this information um among the intelligence organizations,
>> right?
>> And they would have shared it with the British with regards to putting down the Mau Mau rebellion in in Kenya, perhaps Abu Ghraib in Iraq.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. And when do do you know when do these congressional hearings start?
>> Um I I the announcement that I saw said they were going to start next week.
>> Oh. Oh, okay. That's pretty soon. And how safe is it for the Congress people because I think it was Chuck Schumer who said to Trump that or was it Pompeo that the intelligence agencies can get you?
>> Yeah, that was Schumer. Well, we actually haven't um a case of that actually happening. At least one. Um, they're suspected. There's been other um Congress people died in office under mysterious circumstances like a plane crash or whatever, but one we know for sure was assassinated, and that's Congressman Leo Ryan. And it just so happens that Congressman Leo Ryan happened to be the congressman from the San Francisco um area, the Oakland, San Francisco area. And um there happened to be a guy out there by the name of Jim Jones. Um people know that as the Kool-Aid drinking guy that went to Guyana. Um, but Jim Jones was operating out in San Francisco during the MK Ultra program. And there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that indicate he was one of the people because he had given he had been given the authority to have foster children um in his cult that he had created out in the San Francisco area and that some of this stuff was going on with those children. And so if you you had Leo Ryan, the congressman from out there doing an investigation and this was just past 1975 cuz he was assassinated in '78. I think is the right year. Um, so all of this stuff has come out and he's like, "Holy this is going on in my backyard." And so he won't give it up. He keeps looking, keeps looking. And so his investigation into Jim Jones cuz he clearly sees Jim Jones as part of this. And oh by the way, Jim Jones was CIA. He was in um Brazil in 1963 when we overthrew that government. Um, so he was clearly his um Jonestown camp in Guyana had a terrorist training camp on it originally before he moved his cult there. It had been there for a while. He had ships to move up and down the rivers. He had all kinds of stuff that a CIA person would have. And so he's, you know, doing whatever he's doing out in San Francisco. And Leo Ryan's hot on his tail. So Jim Jones picks up his cult and moves it to Guyana to get it away from um Leo Ryan's investigation. And so they plan a trap for Leo Ryan. one of the people um that was very close to Jim Jones, a female, comes to Washington DC as a whistleblower and tells Leo Ryan a whole bunch of stuff that may or may not have been true and says, "Hey, he's going to be gone during these time this time period. I can get you into the camp and you can see it yourself." And so she basically tricks Leo Ryan into flying into Guyana with several of his staff members and he's standing next to what is now known to be a CIA person and is murdered on the tarmac. A bus comes out, people or a van truck comes out, people pile out the back with machine guns, mows them down. Um, one of the ladies that was uh an aide to him at the time is um eventually ends up in in Congress. She was shot like four times but survived. Um, but several people died. Um, including Leo Ryan. All for investigating the CIA. Wow. So then what protection do Congress have? Cuz CIA can can spy on people, hack their laptops. How do they protect themselves?
>> No one ever no one ever takes them on.
>> Right?
>> That's why you cannot have a CIA. If you have an organization that trains assassins to assassinate people that threatens it, you can't have that organization. Okay. But then the British have MI5 and MI6. Pakistan has ISI. India has RAW. I mean,
>> that's how how can a country not have a spy agency?
>> They're all doing it. So to me, the answer is clear. The CIA has never worked for the American government or we they wouldn't have murdered the American president. Obviously, he wasn't running the CIA. They were acting on their own. Um, and I've made the argument with a lot of proof that they act on behalf of this international syndicate when they need a government taken care of because they're going to kick out the American company like they did in Guatemala. um they were kicking out United Fruit. They just picked up the phone to Allen Dulles and said, "Hey, go take that president out." Which they did. Um, so it's never been about them working for the American government. So that in and of itself is the justification to say we don't need them. They do not do um anything that the Defense Department um now the Secretary of War's DIA and NSA under military command authority doesn't already do. that actually works for the president. So if we want foreign intelligence, we we can get foreign intelligence. The CIA's original charter was just to get intelligence and analyze it and give the president a daily brief. That was it. But there's this little little sentence at the end of the law that says and other activities. And under that other activities like five words, we got MK Ultra, we got Operation Gladio, we got every um death squad in El Salvador, we got the overthrowing of over 90 countries in that little five words because none of it had to do with intelligence gathering. So if you just want an intelligence agency to do intelligence work, you put it under the Department of War or your defense ministry. Because the only reason you should be gathering intelligence on other countries is to defend your own country, not to go blow people up. Wow. Wow. Roxan, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bloody hell. I am gobsmacked. Another English expression for you. Okay. Gobsmacked. Uh I have the I don't even know what to say, right? But I'll be watching and following what happens in Congress keenly with regards to this. Every please uh subscribe follow uh Roxan on Rumble and on X. I'll have the links in the description below. Thank you so much for watching and for listening. I hope this was useful for you. And please subscribe to my newsletter, which is free right now, but I'm going to have a paid option where I'm going to be doing Zoom calls for some of my paid subscribers. That is coming soon. You get to chat to me for what it's worth. This is Rich and Roxan signing out. All the best. Bye-bye.