Transcription
Imagine going nine months without a single placement.
"I didn't make a placement. Like I got right up to it. Got taken away."
You're the sole breadwinner with a family to support. What would you do?
"My accountant actually called me. He's like, are you doing okay? I was like, I'm I'm not. I was like, this is not a good year."
So that's exactly where Tanya Ledman found herself. And in this interview, she shares how she turned things around and built six figures in the next two months.
"When things are good, like you said, it's good. The sad truth is is this is going to come back around to all of us. This is welcome to recruiting. If you're not new, this is going to come back around. You're going to have a bad year. So, um, so for me, it was restarting that and going back to the absolute basics of what I've known to do."
"I'm Mark Whitby and you're listening to the Resilient Recruiter podcast. My guest Tanya is the owner of Leadman and Associates, a national executive search firm serving the food, beverage, and CPG manufacturing industries. Tanya built her career as a top performer in the MRI network and later as a talent acquisition leader for a Fortune 500 company. But the real story is what happened after she launched her firm."
Tanya started her business at a time when nothing felt secure.
"I was assured that everything was fine. I was actually having our our first child. Um and she was an my our IVF miracle. So So doing that like I had been like, 'Okay, well they're like go on maternity leave. Everything is everything's fine.' Uh my husband quit his job and he said, 'I would love to stay home and take some time to raise his child.' And I said, 'Oh my heart.' I was like, 'That's great. That's wonderful.' I do think that's why I've had the best postpartum experience, to be honest. Um because my husband was there full-time."
And on her first day back to work, she learned her own role had been eliminated.
"The day I came back from maternity leave, there was a uh the dreaded CHRO meeting on on my calendar and that led me to sitting there, a newborn baby, a husband who just quit his job and now me without a job was next level scary for me."
A year later, the market collapsed, seven searches went on hold, two offers fell through, and she went nine months without a single deal. Still, she kept showing up, having conversations, and doing the work when most people would have quit. In this episode, you'll hear the mindset that has carried Tanya through every tough chapter of her career and how she continues moving forward.
"Tanya, so great to meet you. Thanks for doing this."
"Yes. Thank you so so much, Mark. It's it's funny. I've followed you and known this podcast for such a long time. And like I feel like one of those um people that call into the radio station, they're like longtime listener, first-time caller. So that's what I feel like today. So I appreciate you you having me on."
"Absolutely. Well, so I guess we made friends on LinkedIn, I think, because you put out fantastic content, by the way. So people should definitely check out Tanya Leman's LinkedIn uh profile. Uh really really consistent and good original content. And I see you you showing up in my comments on LinkedIn as well. So,"
"Hey, I'm doing something right."
"Yeah. And then we looked into your background and were like, 'Hey, we should have this lady on the show. She looks like an would be fun, interesting, insightful.' So,"
"Here we are. Um, so look, you I I think if I'm understanding this correctly, there's sort of three chapters. Um, so we've got the MRI chapter."
"Yep."
"Where you're a top producer there. Then we've got the uh talent acquisition chapter where you're an internal recruiter. And then we've got the entrepreneurial chapter when you've been running your own uh recruiting firm. So yeah. So let's let's start at the beginning. Uh you were recognized as a top performer in the whole MRI network. uh which I think most people know but if they don't it's like one of the world's largest uh search firms uh with offices worldwide. So tell me that story. How did how did that come about?"
"Yeah. So um to go back a little bit I I had started I'm from the east coast here. Um my family has all been here. I'm a farmer's kid, right? So everyone's here. They got married and they stayed here and no one left and which is great. Um, but I knew that for me and my personality, I needed a challenge. I needed to be on my own in a way that will allow me to shape these life skills. So, long story short, I picked up u my life. I told my parents in the young I was early 20s. Um, and I uh had told my parents, I'm going to be moving to Arizona. And they're like, 'Okay, sure, time.' I said, 'Okay.' Three months later, out out the door I was. Um, I had no job. I had no place to live. I said, 'I have to do this.' Now, I love Arizona. So, anyone listening from Arizona, it's like a I used to visit there. I just fell in love with the place and I said, 'That's where I have to go.' But it is 3,000 miles away from my family and everything I known. So, when I got there, you know, same old how did you get into recruiting, right? I fell into it like most of us. And um I worked my way up at a uh a large company and started with those temp hire recruiting jobs. I was a receptionist. I made my way up to ops and then I ran one of their largest clients by myself and it was just an amazing opportunity. Um and then unfortunately I did have to move back home. We have some health issues. Um within two weeks of each other I got a call from my mom and said that uh my older brother who has Down syndrome who's best friend in the world um they found stage three melanoma cancer on him."
"Oh."
"And then two weeks later."
"Thank you. Yeah. It's um"
"Well, it'll get worse here, Mark, because two weeks later, I uh Yeah. I got a call from my mom again and said, 'Are you sitting down? Your your they found a tumor on your little brother's brain.' So, I had my older brother and my little brother. So, need needless to say, you know, I had to I had to move back home. But um in that time I found MRI in a in a local um office that's here in Lancaster and they're so wonderful to take me in and I just it shot off from there and my career started."
"Wow. That's uh an incredible journey already that you've u you've been on. And so how old were you when you moved to Arizona?"
"Uh I know I look young. I'm closer to 40 now, but I am uh I was in my early 20s, so probably 23, 24 when I moved."
"Okay. Wow. That's brave. Like just going across the country to somewhere that you have no, you know, family or friends or whatever. So"
"Brave, stupid one of them, right? Yeah. So it worked out. But"
"Well, it's funny because I did the same thing not to Arizona, but to Edinburgh and Scotland. Uh I'm from the east coast as well, but in Canada. And yeah, it just felt like and it's similar. I'm from like a small city called Halifax. And a lot of people, as you say, like they never leave. They, you know, you go to school, go to university, get a job, and that, you know, they they're they're still there. And I just felt like there wasn't enough opportunity. I wanted to stretch my wings a little bit more. And met a girl who was Scottish and, you know, thought, hey, I quite like her. I'm gonna, you know, follow her back. And luckily, my dad is British, so I had a dual citizenship already."
"Oh, wow."
"I had visited like the UK and I liked it."
"So, I just I went for it. So, I was 23."
"Same same as you."
"Yeah."
"Well, funny. Yeah. Funny enough, I met an Arizona boy and um married him and but I drugg him back here. So, you know, same."
"That's I know how that works. So, okay. So then you landed back at home and uh joined MRI. And how long have you with them?"
"Um about four years I believe. Um"
"Okay."
"Yep. Four years. And then"
"Why do you think you were one of the top performers?"
"I I I honestly I would let me caveat it with I would never go back to temp hire recruiting work. I that's not that's not for me. Um, however, I do believe that the way I started my life in recruiting and how I grew up there and give literally understanding the fundamental and the operations of of what that looks like on the on the backside really threw me into a different trajectory of then also client management. I I really think that's what set the deal for me. So, when I did do that in Arizona, I was in charge of one of our largest clients and I was the on-site um senior manager there. So, I mean, I literally ran th that client and 800 associates that we had there. And I think that that helped shape just the understanding of I had a little bit of the background, now I have the operations, and then when I came into MRI, it was like a puzzle piece kind of went together. Um, and then I really got to dive into that specifically and and directly that direct hire kind of executive recruiting level and that lens. And I think it changed my whole perspective on recruiting."
"In what way did it change your perspective?"
"I think what it did was show me the good and the bad in a little bit different of like, you know, I I tell people who say, 'Hey, I want to get into recruiting. Would you hop in and start executive?' And I said, 'Listen, if you can, that is absolutely wonderful if you have a good mentor and a good, you know, um someone that's going to be really guiding you.' I said otherwise get a couple years in in that attempt to hire a crazy fast-paced world because I think it shifted my perspective of seeing like I've seen what this looks like and how that model can do really well and also how it can fail and what that lacking pieces are for the for the client side. And so then I just kind of put that together and fell in love with that direct hire and executive space and I have I've just never looked back."
"So it's funny that you say that. I've often thought that if you start out in temp then go to PRM, then that's a a really good foundation because it's very fast-paced. You have to be very organized and the discipline and the urgency that you learn in that environment when you then apply it to the permanent side of things, then it it uh can set you up for success, I guess. And for some reason I I feel like there's a um a bit of I don't know what the right word is. It's not so much arrogance, but it's like the executive recruiters can in some ways look down on the temporary staffing recruiters. All right. And so it's almost like even though really it's very it's not that different. It's like brother and sister, right? It's not exactly the same, but there's so much overlap and the skills that you learn in temporary staffing can definitely stand you in good stead for executive direct hire. What are your thoughts?"
"Yeah, I I agree with that. I like I said, I I I don't know anything else, right? It's not like I can say I started in in that perm space and I went from there. But I definitely believe that starting in that realm it literally it being my first dose of any type of recruit. I didn't know I worked for a company called uh REMX back if it's now it's now it's employee bridge but I would tell my parents I worked there and my parents would tell everyone back home that I worked for Remax and they thought I sold houses and I don't I don't I don't sell house I recruit but no one really understood and when I and to this day my I just tell my parents just tell people I'm a head hunter. you have no you have no idea exactly what I do but it's been a wonderful learning journey to get to this point because as you know perm depending on the space but I don't have volume right we're I'm not a super voluous business but I learned what that looks like and the elements that make it successful that I can break that down and put it into what we do in perm in perm recruiting."
"Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, so you sort of alluded to the fact you were good at managing large accounts and building those like key account relationships, but there must be more to it because like and I know sometimes people don't like to toot their own horn, but what do you feel looking back were the qualities or the habits or the mindset that separated you from the your colleagues who were also So working hard and good at relationships."
"Yeah. Um yeah, it's hard it's hard to toot your own horn, right? Um within a year and a half I got three promotions and I just boom boom d boom and then they're like, 'Hey, we're going to have you manage this client for us.' And I think it's a lot of it comes down to I was always I played college basketball so I was always scrappy um and just resilient and determined. Um, even to this day, God bless my husband when he says to me, he's like, 'Well, that you can't do that, Tanya. Like, that's not going to work that way.' I I He knows my face and I'm just like, 'I'll figure it out. I'm going to do this.' You know, and I do. Gosh darn it. I get it done. Um, so I'll figure it out. And I think that's what it took for I I'm personable. Um, I I'm not afraid to to go up and talk to uh a CEO or the janitor of the of the operations. I I just it's the same it's the same type of relationship that I'm going to bring and build that. So, I think that's what really set me apart is that they saw how organized, how effective, and when I say I'm going to do something, I I will figure out a way to get it done. And I don't need much help. I just need you to to allow me to to give me the respect and the confidence that, hey, she's gonna do it. And and I oftentimes uh knock on wood, usually do."
"All right. I love it. That gives me a much better picture of what was going on there. So, excellent. And um is there a is there a specific uh technique, habit, or strategy that you developed uh while you're at MRI that you still apply today to in your own business?"
"Yeah, I think a huge shout out to to my Lancaster office. like my bosses, Linda and Todd, really helped me develop the the basics of what I need to be successful. I still utilize like especially the presentation aspect. And listen, people from MRI could be like, 'Oh, that's an MRI thing.' And it may very well be, but that office has taught me a certain submitt process when I'm doing my candidates. Um, and I think that that really just set the understanding of like I don't just send over a resume, a couple keyynotes. It's like I mean I spend an hour two hours with each candidate that I interview and I'm putting together not only why they're a fit but also why they're different than the last person I submitted but I think what the differentiation is I have a note section on my um submittal process that I go this is this is where I think you need to dig in. This is what I would do if I were in your situation. this is the personality of this candidate that is why I think that they may be lacking A and B but they have C and D and I want you to really go and dive into that with them and I just kind of set up a routine and success with that and and it started with my process from MRI. Absolutely."
"That's really interesting. What does that actually look like then in is that a cover sheet or is it a online port like how do you present the uh candidate?"
"So I use um I use a an ACS system called Create and I have loved yeah loved that so much. Um I know a lot of the people that helped build that some of them from MRI. So um they allowed that to be such a recruiter centric and driven operation and I got to set it up exactly how I wanted. So it is a document that literally comes in a PDF form. We're able to have the um my submitt process. So, I will always go through on what the motivation is for their c the candidate. I will go through why they're a match. Um, and I always, you know, silly enough and you think in perm recruiting, they don't care as much about them to hire a man. They're they're going every 3 to six months in a new role. So, they need to explain that. I still explain that movement of every candidate so that they don't have to even tackle that in an interview and waste those precious moments. Um, and then I'm doing like their their salary relocation and all that information. And I think with AI has also changed the game. I I know I've taken so many of of your courses, Mark 2, and helped me tremendously. Um, but it's changed the game that I also now link up. This is your job description. These are the conversations that we've talked about and this is the scoring process on where this candidate matches up. And I think that this year I've done I've instituted that extra step. And I think it's been a game changer."
"I love this. So yeah,"
"You're taking these one or two hour interviews you're doing with the candidates? You then are applying your process to really distill add those notes in within Create and then you're generating a PDF document that you're then sending to the client. Is that how how it works or"
"Yep. Yep. So I that is exactly how it works and then they'll get one whole document of resume right after it cuz I don't want them to miss the submittal. You know sometimes they go right to I know I do this myself right if there's a cover letter from a candidate you can tell me Mark I shouldn't do I don't usually read that right I go right into the resume portion so I I will specifically make sure that that's front so that they see that and then they can kind of side by side it with a resume."
"Okay I love it. If we have time, I we might circle back to the AI part, but um but yeah, I love it. That that sounds And do you know what your uh submittal to interview ratio is?"
"My submittal to interview is I believe I'm I am at a last time I did like a 92%. Um, I I have I do and I I also want to attest to that and and I can give an example of my I just made another brand new um offer to a brand new client um this week which has been fantastic, but I had to call them midway through and I and they go, 'Hey, Tanya, we haven't seen like a lot of candidates.' And I said, listen, I have interviewed 12 candidates and I have submitted two uh three to you because those are the top three. And so I think that that helps my numbers because I'm not just shoot I told them very specifically. I said, I know this is the first time where we're working together, but I will not shoot out or or waste your time just to prove to you that I'm doing interviewing and and building that trust from there. And I think that's also helped my numbers."
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"Bingo. I really like that. And um congrats on your your recent offer by the way. That's always"
"Especially when you run your own business. is like, you know, celebration time at the Leadman household. But um Okay, so but this is really really important for recruiters because clients often will say, 'Show me more. Show me more. Show me more.' Right? Instead of but what you're doing is setting expectations and explaining why there's only three candidates because you've already you know, pre-selected these three and ruled everyone out to save the client time so these are the top three pick one of them right I think that's uh the way it should be and yeah, and 92% you really can't get better than that so virtually every candidate you're showing them is getting an interview, which is as it as it should."
"The funny Yeah. The funniest thing is Mark is when I actually the candidate that I just made the offer to when I submitted them and this they had a consulting background and I don't know about you, but there's a stigma out there a lot of the time with clients that do not at least in my field they don't love seeing a a consulting or someone who's been doing that for a while. Um, and I think that's one thing I wish I could change within this industry because especially in food bev and CPG manufacturing, it is very hard to get into food and bev once you're in it, you're usually in it, right? So, when I had this candidate that had a consulting background and this is for a food manufacturing company, they're like, 'Oh, I don't I don't I don't know, Tanya.' That's literally their feedback was I I don't know. This is this is a lot of like consulting the last, you know, I think 15 years. And then so I had to literally come back Mark and say I need you to trust me in this that I'm tell I always call it a um a ting a recruiter tingly. You know those spider spider senses. I have a I always call it it's discernment I'm sure but I call it my spider uh recruiter tinglies. And I said I'm h I need you to trust me on this and I need you to interview him because what you're seeing is not the way that they presented from this. like read my my uh submission there for it. And funny enough, Mark, that is the candidate I knew was going to get the offer and and that's who won."
"I love that story, Tanya. And that is the that's the true that's what recruiting should be, right? It's uh like if you're a professional and you're like that's you're being consultative, right? And that's where you're adding value to your client. You're not just firing a resume over, but you understand what they're looking for and you've done a very thorough job with your uh interviewing and you've selected the candidates that you know are the right fit and even if on paper it's not obvious to the client and then you have the influence skills to be able to persuade them to consider the non-obvious candidate who in this case was the successful one. So kudos to you. That is brilliant."
"Yeah. And I've gotten in touch. Listen, I've gotten even after that I've had clients say, 'Well, I I just it gets me worried.' So what I have done differently, and listen, this takes a lot of time. There's probably a better way to do this and I'm still learning that. But I am actually with every one of my engaged or retain searches especially, um I am putting together a spreadsheet and I I'm tracking everyone. So I so on a whim if they say I don't know you've only submitted three I will take out this candidate information for confidentiality and I submit that over to them and I said listen this is just a a key of everyone I've spoken to and you can see why I haven't moved forward with them and and I actually have had to do that on not this one this one I just did but I've done it with a lot of my clients just just to prove that extra step like hey listen this is the extra data that you need to to feel comfortable moving forward."
"I I think that's a great idea and in fact um what some of our clients build that into the process so that when they're doing the update calls with clients to you know show what they've been working on and the the latest candidates they recommend they'll actually start there. They'll say, 'Look, this is where these are the candidates that we are um speaking to and these are the ones we rejected and why and this is the one that I really want you to uh to meet. In fact, um I did a lot of work for a number of years with a a company uh really fast growing recruiting firm. They they have offices in the in the US now as well, but they are originally uh based in Europe. And they during the time I worked with them, they grew from 15 people to 150 people. And they developed this process for presenting candidates and ensuring they get interviews. And it would always start with a sort of status update where they say, 'Okay, we identified 237 candidates that roughly match the profile that you were looking for.' We then, you know, uh, pre filtered the or like we sifted those and came up with the top 58 that really looked like the strongest candidates. We reached out to all of those using our, you know, outreach process which involved multiple emails, calls, you know, LinkedIn messages and so on. And from there we got it down to you know 21 people who were um under consideration for the position. And from those 21 you know we conducted 12 you know detailed like interviews and of the 12 these are the two that you need to interview.' So, they almost like"
"pre- uh emptied the objection, right, of the client saying, 'I need to see more candidates.' Because they've literally already looked at all the candidates and this is the result. So, we saved you the hassle of having to do that."
"I love building that in. That's a really good Yeah, I love that."
"Um, so let's let's talk about I want to mostly talk about your own business, but I think we should Oh, actually, yeah. Yeah. Let's do a let's do a quick uh segue here because you also have experience on the corporate talent acquisition side."
"Yes. Yes. Yes."
"Yes. So tell me about why you did that and what you learned from it."
"I think um it it was I think was one of my smartest moves that I've ever done in recruiting. Um I have been an outside agency recruiter for my entire career. So, um, the client that I went on board with was actually my top client when I was at MRI. And obviously, you know, that's a no no. That's against contract, right? But one day they call me up and this is the dreaded that every recruiter fears for their life when you get your top biller. I mean, I mean, they called me up and they said, 'Hey, Tanya, listen. We're we're going to be bringing this more in-house.' And I go, 'Oh my goodness.' The pan is start setting in, right? you're like, 'Oh my gosh, there goes my largest client.' And and then it switched and they said, 'Would you one of the best we've ever worked with? Would you ever consider going internal with us?' And and such a flattering moment for me, but also first thing I was like, man, I don't know how to be able to do that. Um, and long story short, my MRI uh office is nothing but supportive. Like I'm sure that that was hard for them as well to to lose me, but we did work that out where that actual client did pay my fee as if"
"Oh, good. That's the right way to do it. If you're going to,"
"you know, if your client is going to try and post the recruiter, at least have the decency to pay the fee."
"They did. And I got I actually increased the fee at that time up to a 30% markup rate. So they my office they made out well, you know, to to that point. And then I said I have to do this though to be on the outside has been wonderful but now to have an opportunity to go into and this is a you know a Fortune 500 manufacturing company like top company very well-known um thousands of people work here and I'm like I can't turn this opportunity down and learning the inside out of what it takes to be a corporate side. So now I get to see what I've done on the outside, but now I get to mesh that with what do I get to do on the inside? And then I learn new loves and new passions that honestly I still miss a little bit today on that corporate side. But it was it was the best decision that I I could have made."
"Interesting. I mean it was if I'm the owner of that MRI franchise, I'm not liking this. But um but smart move for the corporation, right? Because you know if they think of how much they were paying you in fees."
"Yep."
"Bringing you in house and they get your full undivided attention and probably a cost savings at the same time."
"They did."
"Um"
"What was the what was the benefit to you?"
"The benefit to to me really was to be able to we're in recruiting, right? The money can be really good and the money can be not so good. And we can talk later about how this year has gone for me. But at that time, being able to have a steady income and do that from that perspective while also learning the insides of how to help build. And what was so wonderful is that they already knew me, right? I I've been recruiting for them for three years. So when I got to come inside, I had a boss that started a a month or two before me. Um he was he still is. I talked to him last week. He's incredible. I still have such love for him and he never put any handcuffs on me. He said here go do what you need to do. You have my support and never micromanaged and he allowed me to build the missing processes and SOPs and the SLAs's like I got to do all of that inside this massive corporation that then ran throughout the entire organization. And that was I would never have gotten that chance on the outside, right? So, that was such and I'm such an operational nerd. Um, is the best way to say that. I I just love checking things off of my to-do list. My poor husband, but I love that. And so, I got to do that on the inside. And I it was amaz It was amazing to see what I was allowed to do and take that to the next level. And then the cost savings. I mean it was almost half a million dollars in the two first two years that I would have buil if they would have had it from the outside. So"
"Yes uh well that that's a no-brainer for them and for you it I think it is valuable. I I never had that actually was the experience of the internal recruiting side of things. But so you kind of have the per the well-rounded you know you've seen the the the the both sides of the equation here. So, uh, that's good to be able to bring to your your clients now. Both both of those. Um, so when did you start your own business then?"
"Um, funny part of that is that, you know, people ask a lot, would you go back into a corporate position in this day and age in this market? My answer would be no. Um, you know, there's so many layoffs left and right and unfortunately I was part of that. So I was brought in and then they started um doing mass layoffs in the in the food bev CPG world, right? So in that company they got rid of over 200 executives and if if I'm if I'm sitting here Mark and I'm like well I staff and build that out. I not looking too great for me, right? And I was assured that everything was fine. I was actually having our our first child. Um and she was an my our IVF miracle. So, so doing that like I had been like okay well they're like going on maternity leave everything is everything's fine you know uh my husband quit his job and he said I would love to stay home and take some time to raise his child and I said oh my heart I was like that's great that's wonderful I do think that's why I've had the best postpartum experience to be honest um because my husband was there full-time I mean during the nights everything right I got to sleep it was"
"amazing"
"it was it was Great. And um so yeah, so then I came back the day I came back from maternity leave, there was a uh the dreaded CHRO meeting on on my calendar and and at that time, you know, it's not personal, it's a business um aspect. So then that led me to sitting there, a newborn baby, a husband who just quit his job and now me without a job was uh next level scary for me. And literally, Mark, all the doors kept being closed. Like I had so many people that were like, 'Hey, you can come back into an MRI office. Like we would those were those I had a lot of. Um, which I'm very thankful and grateful for, but I got to the point I'm like, well, I don't really want to come in and build that and give you the money. I I would like to keep that myself.' So then we sat down and I think the Lord just closed every other door and led me right to this one. And this was the only this was the only light that was on that motel. So this is what happened."
"Okay. Wow. So it interesting. Uh so what year was this?"
"2022."
"Okay. So"
"2022."
"So you're about three years in at this stage. Okay. Um and you've like it's not been an easy ride. Um well, first of all, before we get into like what's worked and what what some of the setbacks have been, um I I've I've gathered that it's um food, beverage, CPG and um it's direct hire and is it are you do you work retained or contingent or both? What's your model?"
"So um I think that was something I had to learn early on when when you start your I can recruit with my eyes closed, right? I've been doing this 12 years that I know I'm good at that. Running a business, as I'm sure you are well aware of, Mark, is next level ballpark, right? So, I I wasn't quite sure. So, when I would reach out to um advice from the peers that I've worked with and people in the industry, it was just like you you need to niche focus, laser in. And I do think there's a lot of benefits to that, but for me, when I'm starting off, I'm like, oh my goodness, I can't really just turn down anything. I need to I need to start. So, as the years have progressed, I don't do a lot of contingent work. I will do contingent if it's um under like a supervisor level or below. Um but everything from manager above is on an engaged or retained business model. Um and that's been that's been wonderful for the for my business moving forward."
"Fantastic. Yeah, I love that. Um gold star. That's the way to do it. So, okay. Um so, tell me about that. the early that must have been pretty stressful. So you've got a new baby, your husband's quit his job and you are sort of forced to start you know led and associates. So what was that first year like?"
"And to be very honest the first year was I think a false expectation. Uh I had a very good first year. I I I made a a good living. I I I had didn't have to it's almost like I didn't have to do as much work Mark as we will talk about the next two years but the first year was so wonderful because um I had a lot of support like I've always been I mean you mentioned earlier about my LinkedIn I'm very active I've always had a strong network and I've really cultivated that network I've always been turning those cold outreaches into to warm messages right and then I've just kept in touch with them so it's been wonderful cuz that first here. Most of my business was all referrals and I my very first role that I got and placed like four months into my business was a VP role at a company."
"Yeah. The craziest thing was is that the candidate that again I actually made the offer to that started. I had known her from years prior when I worked in my corporate role, but I didn't have any information. It's not like I could keep her resume. I don't have those files, right? You can't take them. Of course, I had her LinkedIn and I and I called her up and I said, 'Hey, I have a role with a new client that's local to you and I said,'I remember about three years ago, you said you wanted X and Y and this is the Y. This is your Y missing piece.' And she goes, 'Tanya, how did you remember that?' And I said, 'I I don't I don't know.' And she was the one who ended up getting that role. So, I I do think I had a false expectation a little bit of of what it could be like. Um, so the first year was a little bit quoteunquote easier than the last two have been."
"Maybe that's a I mean I think that's a great thing, right? Because it gave you the confidence and it gave you a taste of what this could be like and maybe that made you know gave you the resilience to to keep going forward when things got tougher. Um, but so at what point did things start going south? So the the first year, so I I do remember this story and I think again we're going to go back to that resilience and that scrainess, but I had called someone. I didn't know them well, but I had from a referral, they're like, 'Hey, this person was in sales and then started their own recruiting firm. Had no background.' So I'm like, they're like, 'I think this would be a really good person for you to just deep dive some information into.' Um, this is a wonderful person, and I speak nothing but highly um of them. But when I had given them a call and kind of ran through and and asked about like well what does this look like and kind of drilled with that and he goes well how many cold calls are you making a day and this is where it could be a little bit Mark like some people not may not like this answer but I wasn't doing he said if you are not doing 100 cold calls a day he goes your business is going to fail in three years and and he was just very direct with me and and he said this is how you have to do it when you are starting off this is what I did and I I think that it broke me a little bit as I went into the second year thinking, well, oh my goodness, I had a good first year, right? I didn't have to do this as much. And um but that also motivated me like no one else's business, right? Like it it kind of ticked me off in a way that maybe gave me that motivation. Um but then the market shifted. So food, bev, and CPG is 2020 obviously over COVID food, beverage, and CPG manufacturing could not stop. There was no slowing that down. I made more money in my life in 2020 than I did. I I I had um gained a lot of clients. That was the easy part. Five years, you know, four years later and into five years, we're in what I like to call a market correction. They have overpaid, they've overhired, and they've overstaffed. So now what are we seeing? We're seeing mass layoffs. We're seeing them have to redirect that course and, you know, level out the financial um side of this. And so it tanked and then you add this year tariffs on onto that as well which affected a lot of my especially my beverage manufacturing companies."
"Yes."
"So it took it took a downhill turn from from there."
"So you I I believe you had things put on hold and like what what was it like during that period? What what were you seeing?"
"I had seven roles put on hold and you know when you hear hold, I didn't have too much hope about them coming back around and I didn't see them come back around. Um I had two offers decline from candidates. I've never I and by the way that's the most amount of offers I've ever had declined in my career. I've had one other offer declined. I've never had this. Um I've been very fortunate in that. So I'm like this just went in a different direction for me. Um, so when those offer those went on hold, I went through a nine-month drought mark. Like I mean I didn't make I didn't make a placement. Like I got right up to it. Got taken away. My accountant actually called me. He's like are you doing okay? I was like I'm I'm not I was like this is not a good year. So it it went really hard um really fast. And I think I'm so fortunate and I I'm sure you've seen it on my LinkedIn, but I'm so fortunate to have the faith that I do in in God that like I don't have to depend on this world. And through everything, Mark, like it's still I could look back and knew I was still taken care of. I didn't it didn't mathematically make any sense, but those relationships still came in. I still had networking calls. I just amped that up with candidates to be quite honest with you. So I had to take a different I had to refocus and I had to take a different direction."
"Okay. Let's let's dive into this because um first of all, you're not alone. I've spoken to so many recruiters that have gone through some version of what you just described, especially like 2024, 2025. It's been a really weird market. There's exceptions and it depends on what industry you serve and there's people who are doing really, really well. But yeah, I would say the majority of recruiters have found it really tough. Um, so that nine months where you didn't have a single placement, um, what were you do like what what were you doing? What activities did you have going on? And how did you stay motivated? It's easy to be motivated when you're making money and people are saying yes to you and things are going your way. But when day after day, week after week, month after month, you know, you're grinding and nothing's coming from it. How did you keep going then?"
"Well, I cried a lot. I first and I am not a crier. Like my husband goes, 'Are you okay?' Like I'm just such a I'm a If you know the dis assess disc assessment, I'm a D high DI. I mean, so like I I'm not emotional. I don't D's don't really go well with S's. Like we don't understand. Well, guess what? My husband is an S. Um so"
"Did you make him do a disc or"
"he's an SC and that didn't surprise me. So like literally the whole top of the circle is me and the bottom is"
him. And our our other two are across from each other.
>> And my dad, my dad, uh, teaches discs all over his company as well. So, I know it very well. And I'm like, this doesn't talk to this, and I'm married to this, you know. So it was, uh, it was my husband going, "Are you okay?" And I'm like, "I have cried more in the last year or two than I have in my life." So, but that, but then I, you know, you have to, you know, put your big girl pants on and you got to get back into it, right?
So for me, the shift, the shift was really going back to the basics. And I think at at some point, Mark, and and I've heard you talk about this too, and even in your trainings, like you get that false expectation when things are good. Like you said, it's good. Like, you know, you you you kind of drift on some things, you coast on some other things. And then when something shakes up like this, and and the sad truth is, is this is going to come back around to all of us. This is, this is welcome to recruiting if you're not new. This is going to come back around. You're going to have a bad year or so.
Um, so for me, it was restarting that and going back to the absolute basics of what I've known to do. So really, I mean, I think I had a post about this, but I have my notes written here, too. In the last two years, I took 337 networking calls. I had 253 of those were candidates, and only 84 were potential candidates. So that means 25% of over 300, almost 350 people I've talked to were anyone that could have hired me.
And I had someone reach out to me and they're like, "Man, you, you are, you're always on my feed. I mean, you got to be doing well, right?" And I said, "Well, it's a lot of candidate calls." And then they go, "Oh, I'm, I'm sorry to hear that." And I go, "Oh, that's not a bad thing, right? I mean, our business is people. My business is people. So if I do, and when that inevitably turns back around for us, they're going to come to me expecting that I have built and continued and maintained those relationships, right?"
So, I just ramped up the conversations. And then, um, in that time frame, and it's probably some would call it stupid, but there was a new client that actually reached out to me. And I'd started this process and I, I ended that relationship into that process because of the way that they were treating not only me, but if they were going to ghost me, if they were going to have weeks without conversations or communications, what were they going to do to my candidates? Right? And some people were like, "You don't have that luxury to turn down clients." And I said, "I don't know if I have that luxury to keep that either."
So, I made some hard decisions. And then I do have a career services side of my business as well. That when I started my company, I realized, you know, the capital is going to be your recruiting. And I said, "What about the cash flow?" So, I, I have to have something to keep me going, right? So when I opened up that career services division, I didn't expect much of it, but Mark, that, that this year has literally kept me afloat.
>> Wow, that is brilliant, Tanya. And so there's, there's so much value there that you just shared, uh, that I'd like to explore further.
>> Sure.
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First of all, and by the way, the decision to, um, fire that client, that was 100% the right decision. If you think of not just the wasted time and but it's the emotional energy as well that goes into that. And also like mutual respect is like a non-negotiable that any, any client you're working with. And if you don't get that, then it's almost like you're disrespecting yourself, and that's going to chip away at your self-esteem, I think. So, 100% back that, even if you don't have something else to fall back on.
But as far as the way that you ramped up the number of conversations you were having, even though it was the majority of them, 75% were candidates, that is 100% the right way to do it. I, uh, I think you did exactly the right thing because as you say, this is cyclical. There's always going to be like booms and and and then layoffs. But what the big mistake I see recruiters make is like when there's no jobs and they just stop talking to people because they're like, "Well, there's no point. I can't, I don't have anything for them. I can't place them." But then when things turn around, they're so far behind and they have no pipe. They've, they have nothing to like, they have no candidates to to, uh, to go and talk to.
But not only that, people remember how you treated them, right? And so, if you couldn't be bothered talking to candidates when they needed help, then guess what? When you're going to go and recruit them, you've now got a pretty hard job to do because they already don't like you, right? So, you worked on those relationships and helped people, even though you didn't have something for them necessarily, they valued and appreciated that you even got back to them, that you were willing to talk to them on the phone. I'm sure that goes a long way. Um, and and plus some of them are going to land jobs and then they're going to bring you into their business. Has that happened?
>> Yes, it, it, it actually has. It's, it's been like, hey, you know, I have, I mean, we're organized, right? Recruiters have to be. So, I'll put candidates on lists like, hey, I want to touch base with them every three months. Um, and for me, I always, especially with the background, I, I was talking to someone at in one of these networking calls, okay, just a networking call, and I don't know how we got onto my daughter having, um, been born and with and she was IVF. And he goes, "My wife and I had to do IVF." And then he brought me on a year later. He brought me on as a client and said, "Hey, I, I remember the conversation."
And it, and it was, it was so gratifying because I didn't, I didn't do it at all because of that. It was just, I wrote down their, his kids' names and I touched base and said, "Hey, how are you know, blah, blah, blah? How are they doing?" And, um, aren't they turning, you know, four this year? They had twins. And and so it was a wonderful connection from that aspect and just remembering those little nuances and those little details that I think separates the recruiters out.
Because at the end of the day, I get asked a lot like metrics on this, what do you have this, what does this look like? For me, Mark, this could be a very wrong answer for most, but I had to be very cognizant of how much tracking I, I do for me personally. If I get too inundated with the numbers and I don't see that X equals Y, why is this not working for for me? It shifts me into a perspective that's that's not healthy for me. So, I'm not as great with the metrics as maybe I should be as a business owner. However, what I would, I don't remember this, but I remember your child's name. And I think it's important for me to be leading with conversations and and building those relationships first. And whether or not they hire me again, I, I have helped so many people. And that's the career services side of my business, to be honest. That, that's really where it led because I had so many conversations with people who, hey, I talked to Tanya, you need to talk to her.
And what are the two things that sell in in a market like this? It's, it's peace of mind and it's also fear. And unfortunately, I could sell both, right? I, I could say, hey, listen, this is, you need to have your resume updated, your LinkedIn is not optimized. And I really had to make sure that I am staying on top of the LinkedIn algorithms, um, following, doing courses on the right things that are going to help candidates. And maybe that's a conversation for another time, but that has been amazing to see some of these candidates has said, "I have been trying for three months." And one in particular said, within, uh, six weeks, he got seven interviews and had two offers in hand within that time after I helped him. And I said, "It's, it's just about putting you in your best light and and you need the tools to do that." So it's led a lot of conversations of maybe I couldn't help them, but I was able to help in this area, or I was able to do a lot of networking connections of, I can't help you, but I know so and so in this space. And then I just connect them and then let them go from there.
I love that. And, uh, I think the career services side of things was a great idea because it's an additional revenue stream, right? And maybe it doesn't pay as well as recruiting, but it keeps you going, you know, and it also builds those relationships. So, yeah, that was that was really smart.
Um, what's, what's a day in the life of Tanya, uh, Ledman? What are the kind of, you, I, I think I have a good feel for your philosophy, the way you treat people, the relationship building side, the fact you're super organized, the fact that you are, uh, scrappy, but like, what if I sat beside you in your office and watched you for a week, what, what would I see? Like, what's your typical cadence and, uh, day-to-day schedule look like?
I, I think that this year has challenged me the most, not only with the drought. Um, and and by the way, the last two months I've been busier than I ever have and I pretty much won back all the money that I lost in the first nine months. So, that goes to show you, Mark, >> I'm, I'm billing over six figures right now. And it's amazing that how fast something in recruiting can turn around. So, anyone out there that either trying to start their own firm, it's just cyclical, right? It's going to come back around if you keep the the right, um, attributes for success, right?
But this year has shifted. So, my husband, um, I had mentioned he had quit his job, so of course it's time for him to go back to work full-time. And it's been, I think I've been also very spoiled, um, that I was able to dedicate a good full two and a half years to my to owning, running, and managing and building this business. Um, I've had full dedication to that. Right. He, he watched her. It was wonderful. This has been not only with the drought, this has been one of the hardest years because she, I think we, we had mentioned this a little bit earlier before we started, but she's three and a half and whoever said that two was the hardest age just straight up lied, Mark. Like lied.
>> I agree.
>> This three teenager is so hard. So hard.
>> Yeah, three is definitely harder than two, at least in my experience. And and, uh, they really like can be oppositional and their personality starts really, you know, coming out and, um, defiant and and yeah, it's and, and tantrums and yeah, it's it's tough.
>> And it's hard when you look at this little person that you created and you're arguing with a little version of yourself, you know? So it's, it's hard. And I'm like, well, I would do that too. And I just like, and now she has her own mind. So you, it's, it's been hard because when he's went back to work, my whole life has shifted into the fact where as a high DI, I'm over here like, well, I have to keep going. I can't stop. I have to, I have to get the next one. I have to make the next, I got to check off the next portion on my list. And I, I can't, Mark. I, I can't.
Um, this day in the life, if you were here for a week, you'd be watching me put on seven different, uh, princess dresses while I'm on an interview. By the way, thank gosh, my candidate this week was so kind about that, cuz I'm over here like, uh-huh. And I'm flipping over her into her next, uh, princess dress. And, um, but it's, it's working not until I don't start working and I take the mornings off with her. Um, and that time has been so special for me. Um, especially when you have a child with IVF or anyone out there struggling to to create a family. It's not that I love my child more than someone who didn't have IVF, but there isn't a different appreciation that it was 50 grand to get her here, by the way. 50 grand. And and five years of struggling prior to what we have been. And I was like, this, my perspective shifted when I became a mom, but it really shifted this last year because I have to juggle not only the nuances of my business, but also this little tiny human that still very much needs me.
And so this year has been a shift of surrendering that to the Lord and surrendering that this is, this is the season of life I'm in and this is just the direction that it's going. So I feel bad I can't spend as much time on my business. But that makes me so much more laser focused into the candidates and the clients that I do take on. and then I'm focusing on them that my results have still been strong because I'm, I'm putting my priorities with a little bit of time I have on the right on the right clients.
I love that. That's great. And your perspective has have is brilliant. I, I can remember times where feeling really stressed or frustrated as a parent and then reminding myself, you wanted this, right? This was, this is your dream come true. So, and it, and it just, it brings the kind of the gratitude back and you kind of like your blood pressure starts coming back down like to remember this was your choice. You wanted like this was something you dreamed for.
Yes. I was going to say, you wanted this. Yes. It's, uh, it's, it's been, it's been, it's been hard. I, I sometimes, you know, I'm, I'm struggling balancing it all to be quite honest with you. Um, and some days are good and some days are not, but, um, at the end of the day, I'm just very grateful that I'm in this position that I'm in.
>> Absolutely. 100%. So, I love that you, so you don't, you, you spend the mornings with your daughter, and then how does the rest of the day shape up?
>> Um, I am dreading the day that naps end. That's, that's the big, my biggest concern right now. Um, when that ends, and some days it does end. Um, so really, it's, it's pretty much keeping her occupied while I have interviews. Um, I've had some really great clients and candidates that are so loving and understanding, Mark, that this is the life. But for me as an executive recruiter, which I'm sure you understand, that I have, I almost put more pressure on myself to have a certain persona that I'm this, I am interviewing suite level candidates and VPs. Like, I need to have my everything together, too pristine, to a tea. And then you see a toddler run in there in the background. That I can't keep her out of my office. Um, I asked my husband to put a lock on. I thought that was going to be the greatest little, you know, gift. Well, that was, uh, that was not a good idea, cuz now she just, you know, hammers on the locked door. So that's not any better.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's been, they've been so wonderful. And then I've had, I've honestly had others that do not enjoy that aspect of it. But it's really, then I'm keeping her occupied and I do most of my, um, meetings that I have to cram in in the afternoon into the evening when my husband gets home. It's pretty much a, hey, bye, take her, and then I'm focusing. And I've been working to midnight, 1:00 AM most nights, which is not the, the trajectory that I love to go, but again, this is the season that I'm in.
>> That's a good way of looking at it. This is the season you're in. And so you basically, you're doing, sh, you're doing a shift which starts when, what, like, I know hopefully you don't always work till 11 in the morning. What's the typical like start and stop time?
>> I'm usually starting around 11 and ending around 7, 8. Have dinner, pick her back, put her back to bed, and then I get back on the computer. And like you said, on, on the drought times, I wasn't up there as until midnight. Right. And now I'm, it's, it's like a double-edged sword, right? You're like, "Oh my goodness, I wish that this was happening. Now it's happening and I wish I could take a break." But, right, it's just, uh, it's recruiting, right? It's recruiting.
>> Yeah. You're, I mean, I get it. You're busy and you've had a drought. You need to do some deals and, and so, so you're talking to candidates in the evening, and, uh, and then doing what, what happens in the later hours? Is that like your admin and like sourcing?
>> Yeah, that's my admin sourcing time. Um, I, I think I don't know if we touched base a little bit. I think we wanted to come back to around AI, but AI has changed the game for recruiters, right? I, I think the biggest stigma is, well, AI is going to replace us. And I don't, I don't agree with that. I do think that the, the ones that are left are going to be the ones that utilize, understand, work with, um, and some roles, some roles, Mark, will be replaced. Do we need a sorcerer as much as we did anymore? No. But then that gives that opportunity for that person in that position to learn and grow and use it as an advocate instead. Right. So that has helped, um, tremendously, um, with just my admin time from that area.
But I also, um, I can't beta test. I don't have any loans. My business is ran on what I bring in and I've been very hard. Like maybe I should, maybe I need to do that. But for me, this is this decision that I made. Um, and I don't have loans, so I don't have extra money to just beta pilot all of these AIs that we get inundated with. I mean, goodness gracious, 50 a day of these emails saying it can do this. But again, that's where I go on referrals, talk to someone else who did it, and then so my ATS system has, um, just put in a brand new something called Discovery Agent that has been amazing for me. I'm very grateful, uh, for that. It's pulling, yeah, it's pulling in like, I think they said 12, 13 different, um, from different areas that are aligning with this. And it's really supposed to help so that you don't have to have all the extra tools of Zoom Info and Rocket Reach or things of that nature, too. So, I'm in the early stages of it, but I've been liking the results so far.
>> Fantastic. Yeah, we have a lot of our clients use Create and I've heard great things about Create as well. Um, so by the way, uh, quick, uh, heads up, not, I'm not going to give you a pitch, but we are doing a new AI course next quarter. So, I'll let you know the details of that because, >> it's going to be even better than the last one and bringing everything up to date. Um,
>> and I've taken a couple of your courses in that. So, yes, absolutely. Keep me updated.
>> Awesome. All right. And, uh, so Techstack, you mentioned Create. Is there anything else that you can't live without?
>> I cannot live without my Fireflies. That has been a game changer. And I know the Otter, I know there's a whole bunch of different ones, but I make everyone, they're like, "Oh, just give me a call." I'm like, "You can dial in to my, uh, Firefly." And I was like, "I need to record the, I mean, literally the way I used to do this three years ago for us, I'm sure we're going back pen and paper, which is still my preferred method because I'm old school." But now it's just changed the game. So, I can't do anything without that. Um, I love, I'm loving the discovery agent from there. And, um, that I really have a small deck t, uh, tech stack, but those key things, especially when I've inundated the, um, the discovery agent has been taking a lot of the Rocket Reach and things that I spent money on before away.
>> Fantastic. Well, look, I can't believe we've already been talking for an hour. Um,
>> Oh my goodness.
>> We'll have to do a part two sometime next year, Tanya, and we can delve more into AI, uh, and, >> stuff then. But that's been so fun. Thank you so much for for doing this.
>> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
>> All right. I'll talk to you again. Take care.
>> All right. Thanks. You too.
>> Okay. Awesome. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Tanya as much as I did. What was your biggest takeaway? For me, one of the key things that stood out is that Tanya's biggest differentiator is how she presents her candidates. So, she's spending one to two hours interviewing and then sends a detailed written submission explaining motivation, fit, and where the client should dig deeper. And that's given her a 92% submission to interview ratio, which is fantastic. It's almost one:1. So, in other words, virtually every candidate that she presents is granted an interview.
The other thing that I loved about this conversation is that when the market turned and her placements dried up for nine months, Tanya didn't disappear. She really doubled down on having conversations and she took over 300 networking calls, mostly with candidates, and she focused on relationships, knowing that the cycle would turn again. Tanya also showed the value of protecting your standards even if you're going through a a rough patch. You know, walking away from clients who showed poor communication or just lack of respect. And what she told me is that she wouldn't risk her candidates or even her own energy just for the sake of staying busy.
Thank you again for listening. Listen, if you're getting value from the Resilient Recruiter podcast, I'd love to get your help. Who else in your network might enjoy this podcast? Please share it with at least one person today. Until next time, make it a great day.