Tails from the snake room

Uh oh. I like it. Justin. I think my daughter and I are both trying to add. We're hitting the button and removing as we're trying to get in. So, how's everybody doing? This is good, good, good, good, good. Very first uh podcast with us. Um, not really going to have any topics or anything like that. We're just going to kind of wing it. We're not going to do shout outs or anything like that except for today. I just want to shout out two people that helped me kind of set everything up. One is Adam with Proper Royals. If it wasn't for him, he'd helped me out with some bugs and stuff like that on, you know, trying to figure out this uh Streamyard thing. And the other one would be Mike with Herp Collectors. Um, and that's it. So, uh, anybody has any topics or anything in the in the chats they want to they have any questions or anything? Uh, let me see if I can pull before we do begin. And I will say I have comments up on the side so I'll kind of keep an eye in the chat if anybody who happens to join or anything like that wants us to to talk about something. I think for all of us this is kind of off the cuff kind of thing. So we'll be engaged with the chat and then as we kind of organically talk I think the conversation will drive itself. Yeah. And uh this is this is new to everybody or you know new for me at least anyways doing this live thing. So there's going to be a couple little glitches here and there. It's not going to be perfect, but you know, as time goes, you know, we'll get better at it. Um, one of the things I didn't even ask you guys if you wanted to do something like this, you tell me what you think. Um, as far as thumbnails go, how about doing a contest? Um, like maybe some of the people in the chats, you know, if they can create a thumbnail for the next show and, you know, they submit a couple over and then the winner will pick that thumbnail or or does that seem kind of stupid to do something like that?

No, I mean, we could do that. I I think I'm all for engagement from the listeners.

Like I even said, I think I'd think I'd be for kind of observing the chat. Let people, you know, put in comments to help drive like next show conversations. If people want us to talk about something, we can go by what the chat tells us.

Or even got a question.

Yeah. What made us decide? I don't. All right. So, it's kind of like me and Steve probably I'd say it was kind of like our ideas because when I'm driving home from work, I said it before, it's usually an hour drive, you know, on my way home from work and I'm always calling somebody up and we're always talking snakes and stuff like that. It's usually me.

It's Yeah, it's a bunch of you guys. Yeah. But most of the time it's Steve. And half the time the conversation is like, man, some of the stuff we're saying, you know, it's probably something that we should record, you know, because other people may want to listen to some of the stuff we're saying, you know, a lot of it's, you know, tips on breeding or just different things in general, you know. So I was like maybe

General hobby.

Yeah, pretty much. So

Dale, what made you agree to this?

Jeremy asked me to. I said, okay.

See a lot of thought went into that. What about you, Justin?

Yeah, you know, kind of the same. You know, honestly, I got I gota agree with Dale. You know, it's it's something fun for us all all to do together. Something different. You know, most podcasts I feel like it's usually a one-on-one thing or maybe twoon-one. Most of them are not, you know, five people together, especially like close friends to just talk and, you know, kind of [ __ ] all together. And it's something unique that's out there. So, it's something different.

Mine's kind of similar, but different. Um, as you guys probably know, well, no, and you don't know cuz none of you [ __ ] joined, but my only fans didn't make it, but I still want to be in front of the camera. So, this is all I got. Turns out there's not a market for middle-aged fat dudes. Who knew? Oh, there there is. There is. You're

There. You're not getting the right audience.

Got lock in, you know.

Don't give up on those dreams, man. Don't give up.

You never know what to think.

Facebook's been lying to me. I thought moves were in.

All right. So, uh, all right. I just pulled up a I just want to try something here. I've never done this before. Um,

Oh,

obviously I'm the pineapple.

Pineapple.

Uh, let me see if this works. Let's see what happens.

Oh, it doesn't work.

All right, cool. So what? I was gonna figure out how to remove her.

Oh, what the hell? I didn't even notice a little

I don't remember her being there.

I don't remember that kid being there.

All right.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good one right there.

Speaking of Only Fans. Uh

Oh. This could get awful.

Oh, I know. I know. I do. A lot of people don't know.

Scared with Jeremy's pictures.

All right, I don't Hang on. I got to see how I can remove the picture.

You guys are getting access to our chat and Jerry's Photoshop abilities.

All right, Casey. Uh, how do I remove the picture? Hang on.

Oh, here we go.

Remove from All right, I got it. Oh, wait.

Nope. You just got rid of Steve.

I think my friends don't even know about that tattoo yet. So,

you guys are about to have the rest of this chat not looking at Dale, but looking at Justin's cheetah.

It's all Dale. Kelsey, remove that picture.

No.

Go ahead and wrap up the episode with this one here.

Hey, by the way, that is not me. That is uh Steve photoshopped that somehow. So,

that's what we're going with that looks like you.

Jeremy and drag.

How do I remove these pictures?

I told you we're going to have some bloopers in

Oh my god.

Right here.

You just click on it again. There we go.

There you go. Just click on it.

All right, we're good.

He said, "How do I remove the pictures?" And her answer was, "Just click on it." That lets you know everything you need to know about where we're going to be with this podcast. That's it.

He was like, "Right click or left click?"

Let's see. Did we uh lose Did we lose some subscribers?

Something I'll be doing for most of these, a little shout out. My shout out's going to be right now I'm trying this. It's really good. Strong hints of vanilla and cocoa with some baking spices for you bourbon drinkers. Hard truth. Newer distillery. Been out since 2019. Putting out good stuff.

Nice.

All right. So, uh I guess we could kind of like introduce ourselves. I'm sure a lot of people already know, but um like when we started and all that. And I know that's like all of us has been on podcast before and they all ask that same question, but uh I'll go first, I guess. Um 2016 is when I uh got into this. Um started breeding around 2017. Started doing shows I think 20 probably late 2017, maybe early 2018. Um so it's about 10 years. Um that's it. That's me. Dale, you're next.

What's

What do you What species do you have, Jeremy?

Yeah.

All right. So, Oh god, there's gonna be a little list there. So, we mainly bought

I'm sorry. Do you have somewhere to be?

You know, I'm gonna [ __ ] mute mute your You know, I can mute your ass. You know that, right?

Goddamn [ __ ] hook dud head. All right. Anyways, um ball pythons, boa constrictors, um redeyed skinks, um crested geckos, um aim monitors, tortoises, tortoises, uh rhino.

Yeah,

ASF, Norwegians, and mice. And am I missing anything?

At least two.

Oh, yeah. Yep. And I think that's it. I might have left something out, but I think that's it.

Dogs, cats, mice, rats, flies that don't die, little nats, you know, all that stuff.

Noiums. You call them noiums.

Those are the ones you can't see.

All right. Who's next?

Who's up next?

You are. Steve, why did it look like you had kind of like a mohawk there?

I don't know. My hair is kind of all spiked up. Uh Steve Steves out of uh Brooksville, Florida. I started a green tree python coming to me soon.

Whoa.

I started breeding probably around 2012 2013. Started around there with ball pythons. Um, basically just do b uh ball pythons and some redfoot tortoises when they hatch. That's all my species.

Now, what year did you get your first ball python, Steve?

Um, that would be 1986. Just curious, Justin, what year were you born?

1999.

Steve's first ball python probably died before you were even created.

What did we say backstage? Uh, Steve sold his very first snake to George Washington.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's a joke. We had an inside joke for you guys. Cuz I'm 828, you know, was when I was born. I said, "What does Steve have in common with my parents?" They're both picking up baby [ __ ] around the same year.

I'm a little old.

Go Justin.

Two years above me.

My name is Justin. Um I'm Morph Jungle out of Boca Raton, Florida. Um I guess I got my first ball python in 2006 when I was seven years old and it's been pretty much a ride since then. You know, one thing led to another. started as a hobby for a long time and now I do it full-time for a living just like a lot of these guys. So, it's been a pretty crazy ride for sure.

Wait, why you say it like that? Now you do it full-time for a living?

Because I did it as a hobby for a long time. You know, I I did it as a hobby for

Well, that question came, what job did you have before you uh bred ball pythons full-time?

I didn't have a job. I was in college.

That's my point.

I started college when I was 15.

He's like just now. And by just now, guys, he means from the moment he could actually legally file taxes, he's been breathing Python.

You worked at a restaurant or something, though?

I did. Well, yeah, I did that as a restaurant, but that was like, you know, parttime. I worked like two days two days a week,

so I don't really count that as like, you know,

yeah, it's still working, but full. I did I did it actually to pay for rodents. That's what I did it for.

So,

you're up, Miguel.

Uh, hey everyone. Miguel, perfectly engineered reptiles.

Yeah, we got that part. move on.

I am the token brown guy. This is just so nobody uh I'm by far the smallest breeder of the bunch and I am no technically Dale too or uh Jeremy too, but I do this as a hobby. It's a hobby for me. I have a full-time job and uh but I've been I got my first reptile in 1999 and uh started acquiring snakes 2019, but for purposes of that matter, I'm a COVID breeder. I didn't start breeding till 2020. So, um yeah, COVID breeder. Uh ball pythons, file snakes, and boas right now. I did have some other stuff, but I kind of got out of it. Kind of focused down and then my career kind of got in the way. For those of you who don't know, I'm in it, so that's what I do for a living. But snakes is how I met these guys.

Miguel, let me ask you something.

How to how's how say your last name?

Montejo.

Montho. Okay.

Montho. So Jay makes an H sound in Spanish.

So as far as like if we can anglicize it as much as we can, it would be Monteo. I think I called you Mantigua and bunch of other

I've gotten a bunch. I've gotten uh I've gotten Mono. I've gotten Mojo, Mono, Mojito.

I think I'll just go with Milk Dud.

Milk Dudad is a new one, but you know.

Mhm. Yeah, Dale.

All right. No, we're not going to do Dale.

Yeah, [ __ ] Dale.

Just kidding.

Come on, Daryl. Well, if we're going to go back to the first snakes, I don't know. Probably when I was like seven or something, we accidentally bred garter snakes, sold them to the pet store. But, uh, got some corn snakes. I think it was like 2005 or six probably. And that's kind of where started deep diving down the shows and stuff. and then started going to shows Daytona mostly and then ball pythons probably started picking them up. I think it was probably 2010 or 11, I can't remember. Very did it very slowly and a little bit out of time and then grew from there. Um, so

now I think just for the purposes of knowledge of the panel, right? I think. Um, so me and Jeremy are the only ones who aren't full-time breeders without other jobs, right? You are the three.

Oh, no, no, no. You got that wrong, Miguel. I am a full-time breeder. I just have

without other jobs. I caveat without another job.

I have two full-time jobs.

Yeah. I meant I meant this is the only, you know, for them, these guys are invested, indulge in the industry. For me, it's a hobby. And then you're in the middle. You're in the transition.

Yeah. Not when you're selling tornadoes.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not about It's about if he still has another job.

I'm actually I'm gonna take it down here really soon to like four days a week at my other job, though.

Take all the Fridays off. Make three day weekend.

That's a start.

For those of you who don't know, Dale is a bouncer at a local St. Pete strip club.

Close to St. Pete. from you.

Don't you guys want to go check him out and see him? He's there Thursday through Sunday. It's called Titties and Tater Tots.

And my maybe Titties and Tater.

They have lunch specials if you're interested.

No extra charge for the

Oh my god.

Just wait. He just now cracked that bottle open. Give him another half hour. We're on a different bottle. We're on this four four roses. Small batch. They're

first one. Okay. Got it. Got it.

Pretty soon he'll be stacking up toothpicks just to hold his eyes open. Yeah.

Dale on the other hand, that [ __ ] man. I swear to God, he can drink three kegs of beer and and walk a straight line without any issues.

Not three kegs.

I don't know. I think I think Miguel can out drink me. He drinks liquor.

It's hard. Yeah. But Dale, I can't I'm actually curious. Since you cut your hair, can you still turn water into IPA?

Not so much. I feel like old now

to grow it back for my superpowers.

Okay. So, what should we invest what the rest of this time in as far as like uh I mean I'm sure everybody is loving the small conversation, but what about snakes should we talk about?

Let's talk about some accomplishments that we got last last season.

Some of the snakes that we made that

we were a long time.

You got the most to gloat about. So, you go last, Jeremy.

Yeah.

All right. I'm gonna go grab me a beer real quick. Hang on.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Steve, start us age before beer. Uh I'm big on Zeva Project. Everybody knows that. Um about two or two or three years probably in, you know, trying to make some stuff. And finally this year we made like three or four different uh Desert Go Zebras. We made three TSK zebras. Um, that was like the highlight because when you you're working on projects for so many years and they finally you actually finally make it. I mean because every season it's been like you hit one or the other and then you have them shed tested and they come back negative. So it it's kind of a kick in the nuts. So then you finally hit it after so many years. It's it's really rewarding honestly. Um but yeah, that that's my favorite project right now and those are the the ones that I really wanted to hit. I know Justin, you hit a bunch of nice ones this year.

Yes.

For your Ultra Male Sunset project.

Did Yeah, that's probably my biggest project is Sunset Ultram Man. I was fortunate I hit four total for last year.

Amazing.

And three of them being combos. And I think I I would say like besides that, the biggest animal I hit um is when I teamed up with Jack from Performance Pythons on was the um two HypoDanthics. one being pastel chocolate and the other being um pastel super chocolate hyperdigganthic. So those are pretty cool looking too. I remember we were talking about that project and I was like I can't get my girls to go. They went for me the first year they never went again. Both of them are building right now.

Oh, it's great.

So they're they're breeding so I have a shot. Yeah. But it should have been three years ago. But

the thing is like there's a project you know I was actually talking to um DJ from Reptiles for Centuries for a little bit about that. That's I feel like that's a project still like it's takes a long time to work on that project. Not many people working on it. I think, you know, there's still plenty of years left for that project to, you know, be

I think on both sides you you say because people aren't working on it or you think

well that too and I think it's I mean at the end of the day it's still a triple recessive you know plain day with anything it's triple recessive is still hard to hit the you know at the end

we'll talk about this later but it's something that you said when you said that I'd like to and that is the impact of shed testing because you're saying it's a triple recessive but what's that mean in this new era of of breeding but anyway go ahead I'm Sorry,

Miguel. Let me ask real quick. Are are you uh getting that question off of Azy's uh email that he sent out like a week ago or something like that?

Oh, I'm not a part of uh Azy's thing anymore. So,

okay. All right. Because he did send an email out. He's talking about how the shed

Oh, I did read that. Yes.

No, I didn't I didn't see an email, but I even questioned it. You know, I didn't think, okay, I'm not saying it's a bad thing and and I'd like to let everybody talk about their accomplish accomplishments before we jump into the shed testing, but I did say this would drastic and anyone, it's not like I had insight. We all knew that it would

absolutely speed up the recessive game dramatically.

Completely agree.

And you get rid of all the crap, too.

Now, I think there's a conversation to be had. In other words, that's not an all positive thing. There are some negatives to that in my opinion, but we'll get to that after the Let's let everybody talk about their accomplishments this year because

outside of all of us, Jeremy Jeremy has some big stuff that he probably wants to talk about, but if you're done, Justin, we'll let Dale go.

I'm done. It's your turn next.

Oh, I'm going to keep it short and sweet. So, uh, I had a [ __ ] ear. My accomplishments are that these guys are still alive. uh you know, I had uh some stuff uh a lot of my rat colonies die and that caused me to have to spend a lot of money. Uh luckily I know a guy in Brooksville who happens to have excess rodents.

Um, if you guys have any questions or you need anything and you're in that area, you can just DM me and I'll I'll

I'll give you the promo code that I use.

Yeah, message Ashley.

Yeah. Uh, but I went into maintenance mode and so it was just uh straight focus on things I wanted. I kind of gave up on the show scene and went straight and my big projects so that you guys are aware are uh VPIanthic Desert Ghost Clowns. Um, I have just in the Aanthic Desert Ghost, I have eight double heads that possibly could have been ready to go this year, but due to issues I had, well, probably they're going to be next year girls. So, for me, it it ended up being a I I think I Oh, no. I don't think, but I know I had seven clutches the whole year. This year,

and to give you an idea of how rough that year was,

I had 88 adult females and I had seven clutches. Um I now I paired 41 but um I didn't pair all 88 but so

it was a rough year for me. a lack of food maybe like you said

uh it was food um it was uh life uh for those of you like I said I have another job and uh I had some career growth but it caused me to work 55 60 hours a week and I was struggling to kind of like I'll be honest the hardest part for me uh isn't even actually the animals it's the social media and like all the nonan animal related parts that go into building this brand and and business. So for me it ended up being more of a maintenance year and I progressed a couple of projects. I had some hard deaths for those of you who maybe followed me and I posted I know Justin got to hear me complain about it a bunch but had a beautiful male you know spotnose visual desert goce zanthic that just just died just just for no I couldn't tell why but he just died.

I wasn't a good eater from the start though.

He was struggling. Yeah. Yeah. You can always tell when when a male is going to go downhill because they, you know, they stop.

He struggled to eat and I was trying to, you know, I I was Yeah. And then I just came in one day and uh he he kicked the bucket. So that was probably the toughest loss I've ever taken.

Now it's still nothing. You know, we don't have to talk about it and you don't have to relive anything, but my worst loss is still nothing compared to Steve's. But

um but Well, your incubator incubator.

Oh, my incubator. Yeah, that was uh Yeah, I think I would have cried.

That was a pretty bad one.

Yeah.

Yeah. I lost like

But this year was a year of uh perseverance for me. It wasn't a year of expansion or growth. It was more like maintenance and just keep grinding and don't lose focus.

Yep. Who's next?

Who's next?

I can go next. Um

yeah,

honestly, I really don't have certain projects. I um so I hit the tornado. That's that's no secret. And and that was just pure luck. It's just me line breeding. And I didn't really have a focus on like specific projects like um Steve. I think I I missed that. I was getting a beer, but you probably said yours was what? The zebra.

Yeah, that's my main.

Okay. And then D and Justin had you know the the Ultrammell or the um

Yeah, Ultrammell sunsets.

Yeah. So, I I really didn't have like a specific focus, man. I was like, you know, trying to make, you know, DG clowns, DG Pides, and, you know, just different things like that. But it's a bunch of like small projects. Um, but because I ended up hitting this tornado, what was it, two years ago, I think, is when I hatched the first one. It it kind of gives me a focus now. So, that's what I'm leaning towards to kind of really work on that.

But interesting story. When you hit it two years ago, you didn't know it was a tornado, right?

No. Well, the first one I hit was actually a pastel.

That's the one you sent in the the group text and we're all like,

I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. And

granted,

it was actually and I said it in other podcasts. I was wrong who actually mentioned the tornado first. I was saying it was um

God.

Yeah. But it actually was Jared. Jared Johnson with Jem. He's the one that actually pointed it out. I thought about it and he messaged me and uh reminded me and it's like I had so much going on I couldn't remember who was what at the time you know

but um so yeah he pointed out saying that he thinks that you know that's tornado and it kind of opened my eyes to it and then you know the next the that female that laid that that where that first tornado came from her sister had another clutch a month later and that's when I ended up with the regular tornado without the past still and that just looked exactly like any other tornadoes that you seen over in the UK and stuff. And that kind of uh you know put the nail on the or let me know for sure that that's what it was. And then I hit a third one which that's the one that I sold at Daytona that everybody talk that's still talking about you know the $35,000 snakes.

Now is that are you are you all in on that project now? Is your goal to build that out?

It's going to take a while to build it. Yeah. Um but that's that's what I want to focus on. Um, it's still going to be working other things, but that's at least it gives me a drive and and something to really focus on. Like I really didn't have a specific thing that I was working on. I had like a bunch of different things, you know, which is not bad when you're doing shows.

But, um, it

it gets you excited though. It It kind of rekindles something in you, like something to shoot for now.

Yeah. Like it's like

that wasn't there before.

Exactly. Yeah. It's like the candle's been lit again and just, you know, brings more excitement and everything, you know, and it's it's something that's so new that nobody's ever seen like any other kodoms or anything in it besides Pastel that I'm aware of. I mean, I know there's been a a hypo tornado and Justin uh with Kenova, he's he's working it, you know, he's

who a bunch of who one guy

never heard of him. Who is he?

Yeah. Nobody really knows him that much,

but he's working it. He's gonna he's gonna uh you're gonna see some really cool stuff from from him this season, I think, coming.

But um

yeah, work everything you've got going already into that project now, though.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. He's he's he's got a pretty pretty decent army that

I mean, you you everything you've got now you can combine it with that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And it the thing is is nobody's ever seen, you know, other codoms with it. So it's going to be something cool to actually hatch stuff out that's never even been done before.

Yeah. I think that's the most exciting part for you is that you're going to have world tons of worlds first just because you're in that initial push.

Exactly.

You'll probably you'll probably see more recessive double recessives and triple recessives than combos in the beginning.

In the beginning everybody's shooting for already doubles, triples all the way down the line. is great.

Yeah,

that segus great into Dale.

Slow down.

Weren't you uh I mean, you got hundreds of snakes, but you were ground level into the uh Kiki project, right?

[ __ ] it off.

What was it? I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. What' you say?

You said G-stripe clown. What?

What? Wow.

Anyways, um yeah, I mean, as far as uh like pro I I did a smaller year this year just because of we've been moving and building a new building and it's still not done. And

I feel like at one location

Yeah, Well, we're so the building's still not done. The

baby steps. Baby steps.

Yeah. The snakes are at one place, the rodents are at another place. We're at the house. So once it's done this year, it'll all the road we should start moving the rodents hopefully next month. Um but anyways, as far as projects go, um I missed quite a few of the things I went for this year, but um puzzle was probably the heavier one. Hypo puzzle anyways. Um, the OD uh, black pastel hypo puzzle came out pretty nice. Hit an exanthic puzzle that's I still need to test. That's past that hypo.

Um,

what line? What line?

VPI, of course. Um,

he says, "Of course, Steve." He says, "Of course, Steve."

I have both lines.

I have both.

You have both? You have Joliff and MJ?

No. No.

No. I don't think that line still exists.

I've never seen a single Jolop exentic ever so ever. No,

you did.

Started in Georgia. It was kind of like that. It was the same one.

Yeah, Dirty. Uh, I got lucky and one one of the females proved out that I held back or that I made that a male I didn't even know was hypo um made a a ini um DG hypo clown. So hopefully I'll make more of those right now. I got a girl that's getting ready to or she's building. She should ovulate soon. Um, so possibly some acid chocolate hypo digg clowns. It all goes well. And

that'll be dark.

Show that stuff.

Puzzle.

You made the ghi hypopuzzle. Those were really cool.

Yeah, I made a a pastel possible orange dream, which is I'm starting to think it's it's orange dream at this point, but I need to test it as well, which

That's when you went to the show, ain't it, in Tampa?

Uh, yeah. As a baby. It's starting to get orer as it gets older, though. So, um, you know, if it doesn't sell, I'll keep it. But it's on Morph Market. Nobody's interested.

Shout out to Yeah. Everybody check us check the page out.

Yeah.

So, the uh So, you had a GHI puzzle, hypo puzzle. What's What's all in the Kraken? That's GHI. And what else is in there?

Wookie. And that's GHI. Wookie. Yellow belly. I don't remember.

Have you thought about doing like adding those in with the GHI puzzle too as well or

I mean I don't have a lot of that stuff in there right now, but

the Kraken's clown, right? No,

it's just saying the code that are that

Oh, the code.

I plan on putting everything in the puzzle eventually. I'm working working on it.

Oh,

now are you are you a tornado puzzle? Are you going to put are you going to move the puzzle into your Kiki project? I don't have a Kiki project. I have a a genetic drive clown project.

Um,

Dell's only pet.

Could you repeat the question?

Anyways, yeah, the as far as the genetics right clown stuff, um, I mean, I I should have some clutches from that coming. Some girls are starting to build But

I mean you're not going to put puzzle into it though, right? Because the puzzle clown just kind of

didn't fizzled out. Yeah, you got you got to keep them separate, right? That would be one that we wouldn't need.

Puzzle's not going into genetic stripe or or clown for me.

Oh, okay. Okay.

Hypo all my puzzle stuff's already hypo. So,

and then desert ghost may or may not. I still got to test them. I've hit the triples. I'm not sure. Hey Jared, I think uh we're that's pretty much what we're talking about now.

Yeah, if you want specific animals, I can give you mine and then maybe we'll round Robin about the one snake that was the top of our

Yeah, that one animal.

Go ahead, Justin. Start us off. What is the one animal that topped your

The first Sunset Ultram because I was like probably the

is your first that was the most excited. Yeah, because I was I think one definitely one of the first in the US to make one if not the second.

There's one in Europe before you, right?

Yeah, I'm saying in the US for sure. Yeah, the guy in Europe was the first person to make one. So, I was pretty exciting. And I think as far as I know,

did you beat Leviathan?

I did by a couple months.

Okay. Okay.

So, you were the sec or the first in the United States then?

I think technically I was the second because there's a guy in California, the one that has that mail up for a lot of money.

Yeah, Like 60 grand or something like that. Yeah, he he beat me by like I think a month.

I still I still think that strategy plays out, right? Like every snake is for sale, but some of them are more important as breeders. So for you to buy it from me, you have got to

you really got to whine and die.

My only complaint though with him is like he posts the gramage, the weight, but he won't update the picture. Like mine's probably mine's over 800 grams now, my female, and she looks [ __ ] great. I mean,

yeah,

if I was him, I would update the picture because they proud of you. They age great.

It's good for you for not body shaming.

There goes our chance of being

thicker than a snicker is sexy.

Oh, there it is.

It's already happened a couple times.

I think it's happened a couple times before me.

Yeah,

I'm not even a Sunset fan and I thought that's nice.

It did look good. Yeah. Hey, shout out to Jim Exotics. I want to compliment his message if we can throw that on there. You guys hit the likes. If you want us to keep doing this, we need to uh we need to see engagement. Steve, what was your most exciting one snake?

Uh, one snake. Um, it it's probably not that it's the most exciting snake that I make, but it's one that I've been trying to make for a long time. Um, DG Exantics, I've been trying for years on years, and I miss every year. And this year, I think I it was a real accomplishment to actually make one. And then I made

Now your your DGA's antics are

the first one I made was was VPI. The first one was VPI.

Okay.

I got my mail from this.

But you're in both, right? You're in both.

I am. Yes, I am in TSK and I am in VPI. Um I've got a lot of like triple projects and stuff with VPI. Um, TSK kind of started a little bit later. I do like the way the TSK's age. They seem to age a little bit better even on the single.

Steve, he's talking live.

Shut up. But no, some of mine are still black and white. And then I had some some VPIs that were just brown as adults and I couldn't even tell if they were exantics. Actually, Jeremy borrowed one and he just we did that breeding thing.

he gave you a normal back and you still thought it was the same snake. It it very well could have been. Um I'm not saying all VPIs are like that. I mean I have some some nice VPIs, but

for the most part, I mean, I I like TSK a little bit better.

I think that the

sad to see JD getting out.

I think it I think it benefits, you know, and and shout out to JD, you mentioned him, but that's a good study into line breeding. I think VPI being so popular,

people would buy the cheap, less expressive ones and breed those. And so there are is it's a much wider spectrum of VPI and there are less expressive VPIs and

where like TSK had somebody to kind of champion it and focus it and continuously put the best

visual representation in a lot of people built from him.

So I just think line breeding has benefited TSK where VPI is just everywhere.

I I agree with me and Jeremy talked about

line breeding anything is going to come out better. Mhm.

I still question now. Has ever been proven I could I could be talking out of my ass, but is super OD or highintensity OD. Is that just a line bread OD or is high intensity OD a thing?

I think they shifted it, didn't they? They came back as

OD. It's just it's just line bread OD, right? It's just that it's a really good example of OD.

Yeah,

I would say.

Yeah.

So, yeah. I mean, and that goes to

Yeah. When you get into like Aussie stuff,

we focus on Yeah, we focus on Well, I mean, it's not that it's Aussie. I think whenever you focus on a gene a lot of their stuff.

Yeah, Whenever you focus on a gene and you yourself spend 10 plus years building out a project, you will have a good example and be able to propagate that through the hobby. I think because we focus on combos and triple recessives and double recessives. We don't focus on making a gene the best. We focus on making combos the best. And the genes themselves do not get the best representation.

Yeah. Ball pythons are the one of the few like animals that people don't necessarily focus on.

Well, because we have so many genes. You know, when you look at other species, there's like 20 and not the

the quality of the animal.

Correct. Correct. Yeah, I agree.

Well, answer Jared's question there. The um Yeah, the the thing that popped up weird in mine was the tornado,

but that's not something that needs to be or isolated. But uh anyway, anybody else have anything that weird like maybe like an incomplete dominant or something that

I do I do have one. I bought a bamboo mahogany het clown from GF Coast which we all know personally, but for those in the chat who don't know,

Joe Kenny.

Yeah, Joe Kenny. And every bamboo that I hatch is pixelated. It does not make normal bamboos. It makes these granite pattern bamboos.

Now, if I don't hit bamboo, I don't get it. It's only in the bamboo. I have them back here. I'm not going to pull out snakes. I don't think we're doing it for a show.

The daddy gene.

No, we're not.

Yeah, but something presents in them. And it's only with bamboo where it just shatters all of the So, I kept a couple back and I'm going to try to shoot some. I don't know where it's going. Bamboo is so strong and so overdinating that I don't really know how much I should be investing into that project. But it is something that's interesting.

I didn't have anything that like popped up different. I had made some hypo stuff from stuff that wasn't supposed to be head hypo. Um stuff I got from the bells years ago like DG stuff and I bred hypo stuff to it and I actually got hypos. Had the female shed tested and she came back as had hypo. So then I had to track back a couple of years and I have three girls that I was raising that were combo double head DG zebras and I tested all three of them and two of them came back head hypo so they're triple head.

So

um I just sent out a bunch of shed tests yesterday. Um like

I do have an animal I'm waiting for.

I did spend uh 50 grand with the prince of Nigeria for the red ball. So I'm just waiting for my Yeah. Okay.

I could have gave you a bell and a thing of food coloring if you like.

For a lot cheaper.

You know what's funny is there's a lot of stuff that that the bells like the um the cryptic popped up in in the bell's stuff with the desert ghost.

It did. Yeah. Yeah.

That's where the animal that produced the stuff that ended up being that hypo from the that I made the DG a hypo clown combo with it. The male was not listed as hypo that I made all that stuff with years ago.

So,

oh, I just texted you guys the other day. I had um for confirmed now rainbow pop up and seen that. Yeah,

you know,

you know what's um we don't have to talk about it now. It's just something I do want to mention. I

Jesus Christ. Save that one for later.

We can talk about that. Those areas are intense.

That's G Coast in case anybody's wondering.

Yeah.

Yeah. I made some animals last year. Um, actually not last year, 2024 that, you know, I expected were rainbows from those, but you know, obviously I don't have any rainbow animals, so I just

Speaking of rainbows,

oh god. Um, he has amazing abs.

I bred that original male back um to a confirmed disco fire rainbow. It was the male is a pastel entrench ghi super gravel and made a for sure rainbow this year. So

I'd love to see like

all that stuff that be the uh freeway, right? A freeway rainbow. Well,

so all my stuff's gravel. So it' be highway. I do I have a highway rainbow. was actually here at the house. Um,

that's the one you made the like two a year and a half.

Correct. 44. So, I made a highway.

A lot of purples. A lot of purples.

Yeah.

Does not though.

It looks good though as a baby.

Yeah. And

gravel version will look way better.

Super gravel. I agree. And then I made a

So, wait, what happened as an adult yet?

Yeah. I haven't. And then I made that one and I made a pastel gh a hua gravel um rainbow two years ago also. That one has a lot of purple.

Sam has those, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're here at the house actually.

Who's Sam?

Who's Sam?

I mean they don't know. Do you think the chat knows Sam?

Oh, that's true. That's true. Sam has my loving fiance.

Loving fiance. She's standing right behind him. If he says anything left hand to the face.

Hey, when's when's the big date? When's the big day? We h we haven't got that far yet. We're getting there, though.

Okay.

I'm surprised she said yes. I'm just

I know, right? It's all thanks to Miguel was a big part of that, by the way.

I was not. They're made for each other. I contributed a tiny piece. Tiny piece.

You contributed a couple times. I feel

the beginning like our first actual like date together, you were there part of it. And then our

you helped me out with the proposal also.

Bruce approve. No, I'm just kidding.

Shout out to Miguel for chat. If you've not met his fiance, she's amazing. She's awesome.

Better than he deserves. Shout out to Sam.

Good lord.

So, Justin, the uh the rainbow. So, what is So, a single gene rainbow recessive, correct?

Um, how well do they age from as as as babies? I don't know too much about rainbow. So it's I would similar it's kind of

keep the ruby eyes into adulthood that

yeah I would say it's like similar like candino like the deep purples and stuff like that there too.

Okay simar

it's so odd cuz that's

Not a gene that's really passed around a whole lot.

No, it's not. To pop up in your collection, what I said that's weird. I think, I think the price point hurts it because I do think they look really cool.

Yeah. The problem, it's the same problem I have with like Monarch. Like Monarch and Ultramale, to me, they're pretty expensive.

Yeah, though they're different. The price points are so different. And I don't see the reason that like if you were into that form of...

Yeah. Alinoism, why would you go with Monarch? Like Ultra Male is the clear winner.

And not because it's better or anything like that, but price point. Like, you're telling me that shades of yellow at $1,000, I just don't buy it.

I would compare the price points literally though with Monarch and Ultra versus Rainbow Laborator. Like it's like Monarch's what, 5x? Roughly. Ultrammell maybe a little bit more. Same thing with Monarch.

But I like, I like Rainbow. I think it actually ages pretty well. I like the dark, like what I, I had a couple rainbows for a while. The dark ruby eyes. They have like this blood orange eye color that's different than most candos, toffee, toffee, whatever you want to call them.

Yeah. I wonder if Rainbow's a...

They... I think somebody did. I had heard somebody had done it and it wasn't.

I don't think it is, but they all age fantastic.

They look amazing as adults.

The problem is, is that it's hard to alter their palette. You, you hit a point where you just can't do much with them.

Well, it's the same as lavender. I mean, you, there's still stuff you can do with it. The problem with the, the toffee and the, the candy, which are the same thing, is the fact that it was a leic with albino.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's when it dumped.

And what's crazy, I, I'll give shout out to Steve here. I, I go visit Steve often and he had candy for a while.

I did.

I would, I would look at a uh... he had candy pides and he, and you know, we all know what um, lavender pides look like. The candies blew it away.

I'mma tell you right now. Yeah. If you went up to the layman, not to a breeder, and where finances aren't involved and money's not involved, and you went to the average person, maybe even a person who didn't know snakes, and you asked them which one looked better...

The grandma test, Miguel.

Uh, yeah. I would bet a paycheck that candy pides are winning.

But in the hobby, they didn't win.

You could have a $5,000 triple head on the table that's a brown normal looking snake and have a a banana whatever. No, no, but I mean even a candy pie to candy pie to a lavender pie.

I think you had adults actually when we went to the vic...

And you had a candy pie and the lavender pi and it was the candy pi was tremendously, like, to me, it wasn't even close.

And it, it still had, it had the purple to it. The lavender just straight lavender pides actually seem to yellow out. Uh, they don't, they don't seem to hold a lot of lavender to them. I do have one that has, and it's got a really crazy pattern, but it's got a lot of pattern and that's probably the only reason why it did. Um, but the rest of my other ones, they just look like kind of washed out yet, like...

I'll segue into this a little bit and we don't have to totally divert into this, but that's where marketing comes into play. And I'm not saying we're not calling out names or anything like that, but Lavender had backing of some of the bigger names in the industry where Candy didn't.

Absolutely. Just visual representation though. I thought candy was the clear. This is way cooler to me looking.

It depends on where you go with it though.

I mean, what jeans? Yeah, we could talk about kodoms and what you...

I have some nice lavender stuff but I don't, I never put anything else into it but as far as like visually it looks great as adults.

But I don't have pi in it. I don't have clown in it. Stuff like that. So...

Actually, my nicest lavender.

The nicest lavender adult I have right now is a lavender VPI.

A snow, right? Was that a lavender?

Snow.

It's a lavender snow.

And it just aged amazing. You know, it's just a great looking snake. Um...

But lavender in itself, I mean, you start adding like entie to it, blackhead, yellow belly, orange dream. Yeah. You're going to get some really, you're going to get some really nice color out of it. Um, candy...

That's what I'm doing. Keeping the...

I think candy's, I think a little different.

Um, I had, I still have a trio in my collection. So before I sold off all my candy stuff, I actually bred a zebra to one just to see if I can make a zebra candy.

That would be cool.

Why not?

Yeah, that'd be cool.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm growing up some triple head candy clown pods right now.

Keep hypo out of it though.

Yeah.

Yeah, hypo. Right. It would mute it down. Yeah.

Definitely. Um, hypo.

I think, I think dark genes are going to be key to those albino genes.

Hypo has made such a huge comeback though.

Yeah, but you don't want...

Years ago, negative stuff.

Right. Right. Right. But just hypo in general. I mean, think about it. Like 8, 10 years ago, nobody even cared about hypo. It wasn't a big deal anymore.

I didn't get into people invested in a couple years. I was hypo used to be today so negatively talked about. Oh yeah, and it was the cheapest recessive out there, but...

I avoided it.

Right. Right now, by far, it's making so many other genes look that much better.

Recessive. So...

All right, here we go. Here we go. Our first controvers. I feel like we have to have a hot topic, like something that people talking. No, wait.

Will...

Now, if you want to...

If you want to step out...

Well, see, you don't really see much. I mean, when was the last time you've really seen like candy stuff pop off?

Well, I think a lot of the, I think a, you know, I think a lot of the albinos are slept on. I think we moved on from them because they felt like, yeah. And so they're just not work. They'll come back. I think things are cyclical, so they'll come back.

One of the most beautiful snakes is a black pastel candid.

The contrast black pastel and the...

Even without candino, black pastel candy is still really nice. I have an adult black pastel lavender girl that I still have and she looks absolutely phenomenal just as an adult.

No, beautiful animal. Actually, that was the last um, that was the last candy related animal I had was a black pastel one because it was just so beautiful.

I think when the price dropped, everybody ran.

Yes.

What do you guys think about...

Paint in the candy? I'm not sure how paint is going to react.

So, it'll just change the pattern. And my question, my fear for that, Jeremy, is if you don't add a dark gene, the pixelation will get washed out as it ages.

I agree. I think it'll...

You'll just see tones of yellow and it just look like a snake.

Yeah. You need black pastel, blackhead, mahogany. You need something that helps keep contrast. Those jeans, the dark jeans are...

I don't know because I feel like paint on its own is relatively a darker animal. Like compared to a normal snake, paint is has a...

I don't think it's dark enough for the albinos.

It's a more chaotic pattern.

See the contrast difference between the two.

Yeah. Yeah. I think as it ages though, you'll just end up with mashed yellow.

Yeah. Well, either way, I'm doing doing a pairing to make double hits.

I think you need, I think you need more defined blind.

Yeah. You need stuff that brings in the contrast to the albino jeans.

Like what he said. Yeah. Like that kind of stuff. You'll be able to like, all right, cool.

Yeah. Yeah. Acid, blackhead, mahog.

You'll be in your faceel contrast being so dark was so light.

It helps keep so that as it ages, and we all know that ball pythons, you know, we call it brown out, but whatever, they lose a little bit of their definition, that contrast will help keep some of that definition into adulthood.

Yeah, it's going to bring out a lot of those purples, too, because you have that, you know, the deep contrast there, too. You'd be like...

Pretty really cool looking animal. Now, Jeremy, what do you think? I don't know every all the jeans in your collection, you know, the, the, the, but your future plans for, I mean, because you have the kind of the newest, freshest gene on the market. What are your plans? Not recessive code. What codeoms do you want to introduce in the tornado? Well, I'm hoping I have three girls that were actually bred to the original Pied female that carried the tornado gene that are I'm breeding two of them this year and they're blackhead Mojave Huffman doublehead hypopides. So, those three girls are 50% head tornado. I'm hoping that at least one of those end up proven out. So...

So, would you say blackhead Mojave Huffman?

Yes. Yep.

Huffman, I'll tell you right now, I saw some of the best pides you've ever seen were on Steve's table. Huffman pides look crazy for just being Huffman Pides.

That's where I got my stuff from. From Steve. Yeah.

So, I actually got a blackhead Huffman Mojave hypo from him.

And uh I bred it to a supereni hypo. And God, what we got like nine or 10 eggs? And those things flew off the shelves. They're they're like...

You know, they're just all hypos. No other, you know, recessive. They look good though, like that. They look really good. Yeah.

I don't know enough about Huffman. Is that is that in the...

It's in the black pastel complex.

Yeah, it's similar to black pastel like on its own looks a lot like black pastel.

And I just recently found.

But is it a liic with...

Yes.

Yes.

I can't remember who it was I asked, but I, I was asking that. It might have been in the chat with you guys. I can't remember. But uh...

Well, it's in the eightball complex like, yeah.

It's been proven to be in the eightball complex.

We were talking about paint before.

Now, if, real quick, I just want to get this in before...

Yeah. Go for it, cuz I'll, I'll forget it. Okay.

And when he said, I'm going to go again.

Paint, paint with desert ghost. What do you think it's going to look like?

A lighter version that...

Well, I'm just, this is what I'm saying. That's an interesting question cuz desert ghost with with granite jeans, I think is what you're asking.

Does it clean it up too much?

Forget Miguel.

Yes, Desert Ghost clean [ __ ] up.

Jack, Jack has a uh Cosmos that's desert ghost and I didn't even know it was a Cosmos. I'm afraid it's gonna clean it way too much and it's not gonna look like it may look like a Harley Quinn desert ghost. Well, those are those are um, that's an interesting discussion for genes that contrast each other because granite jeans by their nature dirty up a snake. They pixelate it and desert ghost with a lace.

Yeah, desert ghost by its nature cleans a snake. So you have two genes fighting to do what they want to do. And if desert ghost wins, you end up with something that doesn't look that great to me.

Probably not to that degree.

Hypo kind of frost it. Um, it's more frosting with hypo.

Yeah.

Um...

I feel like hypo doesn't really like...

Change the pattern much as far as like...

DG actually it just coats the color.

Yeah, DG does change it.

Just like with puzzle, for example, puzzle is a great example. You know, puzzle DG's...

You want those sharp lines reduced.

Normal puzzle.

Let me uh Jeremy, can we bring up Jim X last comment? That's something about...

Yep. You got to ask my daughter. She's the one doing that and when you ask me, I, she'll click it then I'll click it and it'll make...

So, I'll read it and then we'll talk about it. On the topic of BLT, do you plan on working backwards towards any linear directions to offer a lower point of entry? So for those of us who are working projects, are you always just progressing them or do you think or does show and morph market come into plan where can I make some entry level into the project stuff happen or is that just a natural thing of byproduct? We'll start with Steve because I think he's the biggest breeder. It's between him and Dale, but really you...

I think this question pertains to BLT that from imagine the broad line tornado. Correct.

But the question is really asking, are you planning on working backwards towards any linear direction to a lower point of entry? So in other words, do you always just move a project forward and then just sell the byproduct or do you ever breed with the idea that the newcomer or you know, a newer breeder can come into the project and you would be that seller?

Well, that question is uh towards me because...

Yeah, I'm saying it's Jeremy for sure. That's kind of a...

But I mean, that's a question that we can ask towards any project, towards triple...

Recess. Yes. But as far as the, the tornado project that he's talking about, that's that's a really hard question to answer because what would be the beginning or the um, the cheaper route for somebody to get in would be posit.

I think, I think if we're being honest, most, including including everyone on this panel.

If, if, okay, I'll say this. If financials matter at all, which we know they do, so that's kind of a a meat point, but Jeremy would be moving towards building the best, most expensive tornadoes he can to benefit off of a project that eventually people will catch up on. So, the fact that he's early in, he, it's advantageous to him to push forward with the best tornadoes that he can produce.

And then his byproduct would be what you would buy. But I don't think he strategizes with like, I'd like to make some low entry point stuff for new breeders. I don't, I don't think that's something that he would factor in. That would just naturally happen based on his byproduct.

Yeah. Well, the byproduct right now, there is no low entry, to be honest with you.

That's, that's why I said the question is really hard to answer. I mean, yes, in five years from now, there would be, but it wouldn't be per, uh, purposely done. It would be like you said, the byproduct.

Yeah, I would, I would actually, and that's why I said it's a question because you think of, we're using tornado because it's new, but you can do the same thing for triple recessives, whatever. And I would say it would not be beneficial for any breeder to focus on building entry-level snakes.

They should always be pushing their project to the maximum advancement.

And selling the byproduct because they risk falling behind. They risk being where they shouldn't be.

Yeah, I mean, I agree. When you get shitty odds...

Is the entry. So...

Now, if you get shitty odds, that's one thing, but I think the question was more geared to...

Purposefully breeding to make entry level into a project where like, like we said, it, you use tornado, but say we use double or triple recessives, you know, DGE and ic clowns, whatever, you would not intentionally be like, you know what, I'll make triple pos, triple heads because people can shed test and I want to give them that chance to get into it cheap. You would agree to make the triple...

You have in your collection. So, if you have a visual triple male and you got a bunch of girls that you can't do much with, but you could make clown double heads or something like that, then a lot of people probably would take that route.

Yeah, they would do that. But I'm saying you would not. Dale, would you...

Would you breed a triple head male...

And then if you had, let's just say the, let's just say the male could only go to two females. Let's just say you knew he was a slow feeder. Let's just say circumstances dictated that he couldn't go to a lot of females. Would you ever see yourself intentionally choosing to not breed him to the best females because you had the thought process of, well, you know, I'll make some stuff I can bring at shows and people can get into entry level.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It with his project, it doesn't have to go to all the best females.

He could literally, if he does...

He can. He's starting right now. He's...

Oh, Tornado is different. Yeah. Anything he puts it to, it to everything and it's going to be the first time it's ever made. So it's like, you don't really have to use the best females in your collection for a project like that.

Um, that comment, I want this...

I 100% agree with this, what, what Leviathan says.

Yeah, 100%.

Because the whole point in my opinion, and some people may not like it, the whole point of moving backwards to me makes no sense. Like...

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

At this stage of this industry, you should always be moving forwards. Moving backwards is just, to me, makes absolutely no sense.

To, yeah, to Levi's point with Jeremy, he should even be picky who he sells to.

Exactly. To maintain your longevity in a project, to maintain the value, and to maintain like it just being popular, you should never move backwards.

All right.

Oh, absolutely.

I agree 100% with what you just said. And as far as what Miguel just said about being picky who who I sell to, I am. Strategically when I do have stuff available.

Um, making sure it falls into the right hands and I'm not going to overproduce because...

At the end of the day, I got this gene for free.

You know what I mean? It just popped up.

Not free, but cheap.

No, I didn't pay for it. It just, it just showed up. It, it was, it was years of work to do it. You know what I mean?

You bought the emails, right?

Did the work and...

Yeah, I did the, yeah, it was a bunch of...

You're devaluing your time if you say that. You didn't get it for free. I didn't. Well, whatever. Either way. Yeah, I didn't put hundreds of thousands of dollars like that.

But you do not invest into the gene. I...

And there's others that have and I want to protect their investment. Well...

Agree.

You know what I mean? So that's...

But I think people, I think enough people don't ask like, if, when you're selling it's like, hey, what's your plan with this? That should be a question. If you're in a new project, a new gene you discover or you're part of this, we're using Jeremy as the example because of tornado, but it shouldn't matter who you're selling it to, especially at this stage in...

I wouldn't say that.

It should, you shouldn't be selling it to everyone. I don't think. I don't, I think...

I think it should definitely matter who you sell it to.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what's weird is we can discuss what that means like, like to say that is an open statement, but to say it shouldn't matter, the natural question that the chat would have is why should it matter? And that's where we have to define why it matters and what's the questions that like Jeremy might be asking when someone reaches out and goes, hey, I want to get a tornado, what do I need? How much you want? And it's, what are the criteria that you use for a ground level project as to how you distribute it? Now, I have no experience with that. I can give you theories, but it would be you full-time guys who would better answer that.

I think you have just as good of a an idea. But go for it, Jeremy.

No, I was just reading. Uh, I want to Casey, I'm going to pull this up.

Oh, she already did it. Um, the, the, the good, the good thing about the tornado is is there is no shed testing and there probably won't be for a long time.

Now, you say that. Hold on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold you to it. Why is that a good thing?

It's a good thing because...

People are not going to be getting POS headsets and getting them shed tested and, you know, just destroying the project by getting in super cheap or something like that. You know, getting ahead.

That, the whole thing about shed testing in general.

Exactly.

It is. But...

There are some negatives to shed testing that we don't talk about enough.

Here's the thing. And and I believe...

But this...

There's too much good coming out of it. I would say that it's beneficial, but it's not 100% positive.

If you, let me ask you this, and I, I believe Will said this, too. I could be wrong, Will Rose. But shed testing is here. You got to use it, but if you were able to snap your fingers, exact same way.

Yeah. If you're able to snap your fingers and make it totally disappear and wiped out, would you guys do that? Me? Yes, I would.

I would disappear in a heartbeat.

Okay. Um, so the shed, shed...

You know, you know what my problem with shed testing is? Can I be honest with you guys?

No, you haven't been honest yet. So...

Yeah, I'm a liar. Uh...

I think it's a good thing from the aspect of expediting results. But what you get from shed testing is the efficiency. And this is going to be controversial. The efficiency will bring in people who are money driven and don't love the animals. The guesswork of posetss and all this and breeding and long-term and the project takes 10 years. You have to love it's a labor of love that you have to invest in.

There's people, there's people coming in doing that before the shed testing does.

Before shed testing.

Absolutely. But what I'm saying is is shed testing allows grants people who see the ability to maximize profit to invest where before when it was guesswork, they're like, I'm not willing to take that risk. I don't, they're not saying this, but I don't love the animals enough. This isn't a hobby for me that I enjoy. This is a way to me to turn over a profit. I'm not saying that that's going to happen, but I'm saying that it opens the possibility that investors join, not snake lovers. Well, that was co but...

Well, I think, I think co's inflated prices showed people that they could be...

The next Steve or the next Dale without realizing that you guys had been in it for 10 plus years and had grinded. But co, co gave people a sense of false, a false sense of work. Co thought there were people...

You know, having been, I'll call myself a co breeder, even though I got a little bit before co, but there were people that I would talk to that would be like, I'm buying ball python and in five years I'm going to retire. And I'd look at them like, what the [ __ ] are you? Are you serious?

You know, you really think that's going to happen?

And they were investing that way. Now, a lot of those people are gone. But I'm just saying [ __ ]...

A lot of people made a lot of money too.

Real quick. Yeah, real quick. I agree. I agree. But the longevity or the people who are still in it and and and we don't have to indulge. You know, I'm not calling people out, but you can look on Instagram and Facebook and you can see all the people getting out.

Oh, for sure.

It's not a knock. It's not a knock. It's nothing. YouTube channels. I went to YouTube channels and saw like people that I was subscribed to.

And I deleted, I don't know, 20, 30 of them, I think in the last like two days because they ain't posted a video in four or five years.

Steve's tell me, Steve told me he was doing the same thing. Like their birthday will pop up on Facebook.

I do that every day.

And they're not even, yeah, they're not even...

Deleting. Yeah, I used to have like 5,000 friends. The guys who will always make it or the, the breeders who will always make it are the ones who realize that these are not assets that they're animals and that we enjoy it. Now, this gives us like, like we take for granted and, you know, chat, you probably realize it, but all five of us hang out, talk, chat, we have a chat group, we're friends. This has brought us together. We have a connectivity between this. We love the snakes, we enjoy it. Like I said, even me as a hobby guy, still breed, push my, and like I said, my career could push me out of the ability to do shows. I will never have zero snakes. I love the snakes, I love chatting with these guys, talking to these guys. But there were people who came in during COVID, especially, but even before COVID, but but during COVID, who saw money, who saw potential, who saw dollar signs, and those are the first people to drop out in my opinion when chickens heart.

Hey, Miguel, how many drinks have you had so far?

Four.

I was, me and Jeremy talked about this the other day and I said, it's passion before profit. If you don't have any passion for animals and you don't really care for these things and they're just money to you, when [ __ ] goes bad and you're not making any money, those are the first things that are going to get neglected. No, they don't take care of them. When they want to get rid of them and it's not making them any money, they just want them gone. And I have, I have friends that are, you know, had snakes for years and they probably haven't bred anything in three years, but they still have their entire collections just because they love their snakes. They just feed them and take care of them. That's what they do. Um, before I was a breeder, I was a collector. I had a big collection back in like, you know, the early 90s, late 80s. I had BMS. I had all kinds of stuff. I lived out in South Florida down in like Fort Lauderdale area and I had all kinds of crazy stuff. I mean, treeboas, tree pythons, iguanas, savannah monitor. I mean, my whole apartment was full of this stuff.

Damn.

And...

You know, the only things I ever bred were my BMS and that didn't even go well. Um...

Washington bought some from you.

Yeah. Yeah. There was no internet back then actually.

Yeah. Back then I had to just lay on them, you know, and try to cuddle them to keep them warm. It's a long time.

Yeah. My, my first was uh...

Started wearing diapers. 96, 1996. I had a ball python, a savannah monitor, and...

That's like the gateway drug.

Yeah.

Everybody had a ball python, a savannah monitor, an iguana.

Technically, my first was a boa and for my dad got it for me for my second birthday. So 2001. Paying attention.

That's, I met you through your dad.

Yes.

Bending.

Yes.

Yeah. My dad is is that...

Justin used to show up and helping his dad out.

Yeah.

How was he when you met him, Steve?

Well, my dad, so my dad did this off for me because I was into reptiles and stuff like that, but obviously I was seven years old, so I, I can't be going nowhere by myself, you know?

Yeah.

Seven years old. That's what, five years before you were potty trained, I guess.

You were still in high school when I met you.

Yeah. I mean, I, I mean, you were probably 13 when I met you. I'm starting to do a lot.

Your brother, your brother wasn't even born.

No, my brother was born when I was 15. Yeah.

Yeah. I knew you before that.

Long time.

I know. I was, I was one of those kids. I was, you know, that's what people, you know, didn't take me seriously. I was still buying two $3,000. I was like 12 years old. And people be like, "What?"

Yeah. Look at you now.

I know. It's crazy.

Yeah. You got in. What, what year would you say you actually got into the industry with actually selling, like doing the shows?

Probably like 2010, roughly.

2010.

Yeah. 2010, 2009.

What was it like in 2010? Because I came in a couple years later.

I remember doing a show back before Rep was even popular in South Florida. It was, they're run by a lady called Lauren.

Yep. No. And I remember, you know, selling single gene like lessers back then for, and calos for $1,000 a piece at selling out like every single one you brought to the show, you sell every single one at the show.

Yep.

All right. Here's here's a question here. Um, python or uh pythonic obsessions. What do you guys? What do you? What are your answers for that?

Why ball pythons?

I have my answer, but if you guys want to go first or whatever.

What's the question? It's what about them do you love? How do you answer? Like, what about why ball pythons? I mean...

You never, you never stop creating anything on them.

Yeah, I think if we're being honest, uh they genetically...

Definitely.

More than the rest of the reptile industry combined. To answer your question.

It's the potential for new and innovative.

Or just, just just being able to make things that no one's seen before exist in ball pythons greater than anything else.

Yeah, I definitely think there's more like, I mean, there's, I feel like there's more genetics in ball pythons than any other species of snakes. So that where the possibilities are a lot more endless.

And so we're speaking color and pallet. If it's, if it's temperament or if there's temperament...

Too. I feel like a lot of them are similar, whereas ball pythons, there's a lot more.

There's probably more genetics and ball pythons than there is in the rest of the species combined.

Yeah, there is endless. It's literally endless. Like with the amount of single, single jeans we have, like possibly there's millions and millions and millions of...

I don't know where morph market is, but I know I think boas are the next closest and they're in pretty cool.

Yeah, they're in the 60s. Ball pyth over, over. Yeah. But, but ball pythons are over 240. Boa's the next closest and they have...

In combinations. Ball pythons.

That's what I mean is...

I mean, millions of combinations if you break it down to physical in...

Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's been pointed out, but you think about it when you have 240 plus jeans. If I produced a world first every year from now until I die, I would die before I could produce 20% of it.

For sure. And this...

I think, I think 20% is high.

Look at Dale trying to read comments on his little phone.

We've only done about this much.

Zooming in. He's like, what?

Well, they're, they're manageable size. They're just a good pet animal like...

Oh, they're docile nature. Now, I will say experienced, experienced reptile or people who want more out of their things...

Tend to expand out of ball pythons, but from a visual representation, they're king. It's not even close.

Yeah, that's, they're, I mean, they're the number one reptile.

Yeah, they're very hardy, too. Even from like a pet standpoint, they're very abuse or worse. Yeah. You know, I mean...

Let's, the industry itself probably wouldn't be as popular or where it is right now without ball pythons.

No.

Be honest.

I mean, they're, they're pretty much what's been making the the whole market go round for years now. Um, but...

Oh, 100%. It is...

Like you, when you were in it, like when you were selling at like 2010 before you were saying, and things were selling for $1,000 easily. When I came in, everything was at a bottom low.

Nothing was really good. Everything was kind of crap. Um, so I never really saw any money being made in this.

I always thought it was just something cool I liked to do.

I never really looked at it as a business thing for many, many years.

No, I didn't either. I did as a hobby farmer. It was such a low back into it.

And people are talking about how it's like a little slower now and this, that. This is the normal ball python market.

Yeah.

This is what it's like. I mean, we get inflated at times and it go, it's a roller coaster. It goes up and down. Um, we're going to see this many more times. We're going to go back up. Will we see co? Who knows? Will we see, you know, 15 years ago? Probably not. Um, there's too many jeans out there now. You know, when it was the first time that they were being seen, you know, they can get whatever they wanted for it because there was, there was no supply for the demand for people.

That was a different market entirely. Yeah.

Absolutely.

How many, how many of that gene can you produce? And honestly, it's repeating right now. Look at Jeremy with this tornado. I mean, we keep going back to tornado, but it's a new gene.

It's, it's in demand, but there's no supply for it. You know, there's not 30 people that are producing them that can, you know, slam Morsemart tomorrow and just put a bunch of them on there.

And, and yeah, I don't know the timeline, but there will be. In other words, this gene, that's why I said advantageous to produce the best things he can because there will be a point where...

Tornado isn't the hottest gene and it's not demanding such a high price point.

And people are easily excited.

On that, on that note, Justin, uh, you might know this better than anybody. How long has Sunset been out for? Like when did it come out? It's been out for so. Problem is, popularity-wise, it's been out technically, it's been out for a while, but it didn't really like co. Yeah, because actually the founder was the perfect person to find it, but it really like feel like it wasn't really released until...

Like just before 2020, I feel.

And you were, you were pricing or selling comboed uh sunsets at what price still?

Well, based, so based, based sun. When I first made my first like visual sunsets, I was selling them for 5,000, like $5,000 to $6,000 and that was like 2021, I think.

And Ultra Male sunsets are what are they?

They're up there. They're quite up there.

Yeah. So, I mean, and that's that's a gene that he just said was 10 years old.

But...

Yeah, I must say, I think sunsets closer to, I think 2011, 2012 is when...

To based on, based on Brian's podcast.

Market though, and how quick things are moving. It's not.

No, I will say in my opinion, I feel like as far as a base recessive goes, they've held their value pretty dang well.

Oh, I think it's because they weren't super popular in the beginning, right? Like, like we're talking about, they didn't start out of the g, they didn't come out 2012 as the hottest thing.

No, it took, that's the thing. It took some time. It took quite a long time for them to, you know, gain popularity and really start being produced. Yeah, but the market sped up like in the last like four to five years insanely compared to when that gene came out.

So...

But now you've, you basically reinvented that gene though.

With Ultra Mel.

So now all the other combos that were made before, now they're going to repeat again.

My biggest way.

It's not, it's not a, you know, unknown fact that a lot of people don't like Sunset. It's, it's very 50/50. Some people either people hate it or...

Yeah. It's a very polarizing though. People love it or they don't like...

Email I feel like is that one combination that people that even don't like sunset, they're like, all right, I like that.

And you are one person. See, exactly.

Don't compare one recessive that came out 10 years, 12, whatever years ago to a recessive that came out three, four years ago because the timeline's not going to be the same.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. All right. So, say, say it came out three years ago. Then...

In 10 years from or seven years from now, which would...

Say you got half the timeline.

Yeah.

Wait, is your question the projection of tornado? Is that what you're asking?

Sort of. Yeah.

As far as like...

Or not even tornado, just new new genes. That's, you know.

Yeah. I think it matters. So, so we can wait. We can use tornado because I do think it matters whether it's recessive or not. So you can think of um, what are the other ones uh that that are not...

That aren't recessive that aren't recessive that are the granite genes that come up. There's tornado. There's...

I think, I think cosmos will plummet in price way quicker than tornado because of the ability to reproduce.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I mean, simply being, I mean, like bringing back to Sunset, like, you know, it's been out since what we were saying, 2011, 2012, roughly. I mean, in my opinion, I still feel like there hasn't been as much done with it as there could have been.

There has. So I do think it's early phases though. It didn't gain, you know, so there's, there's a, when a gene was discovered and there's a, when something made the gene popular and Sunset wasn't popular in 2012. The point I'm trying to make though is that like tornado has years and years and years to go because nothing has really been done with it.

Yeah. So my point was more tornado versus like Cosmos is a good one. Not, not Sunset.

But Cosmos where I can get a male and then a year from now start producing eggs.

But can you? I, I mean, you can, but I don't know. There's been a lot of controversy around that project lately.

So, yeah, we're not talking about egg viability or anything that we're just talking...

No, as far as production, like what it looks like.

There's supposedly another gene attached to it. I don't know. I don't have it.

White flame.

What is it? White flame. Yeah.

White flame.

But, but I'm just saying that a recessive gene should in theory hold its value longer than the...

Oh, for sure. It's more...

Based on what it takes to make and reproduce the animal over...

But in the future, will they...

Or I think shed testing speeds it up and gets them closer together, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that a recessive is a recessive.

I talked about this a little bit when I was on uh herb collectors um and basically regurgitated a little bit of that information from William Rose. Um, you can, you can make, say, a Pompei. You can, you can make a triple recessive easy if you have triple recessive on both ends.

Every baby's going to be triple recessive.

Yeah.

But if you're trying to make a Pompei, you can't have like supers on...

Both sides because, because you got spot nose and and some other jeans. And I know you can make a super spot nose. Those are going to be wonky, but...

No, but you won't make a Pompei. To your point.

You know, if you add supers on of the Pompei, like everything was super on on the male side and in the female side and you breed them together, you can make them make a Pompei. Um, if the spot nose wasn't involved.

Some of the stuff.

You know what I mean? And there's, you know, Super Cypress, they're they're kind of wonky, too, aren't they?

Yeah.

I've never made it. I've been working.

I've heard it. I don't know. Yeah. So there's certain genes like down the road in the future, what Steve was saying, down the road in the future...

I think incomplete dominance might have a little more value than the recessives once...

I definitely...

Yeah, I think it's, I think from a market standpoint, it's a different. So analytically speaking, you will in the early phase of a project generate more revenue from multiple recessives from the longevity, the legs of a project, the ability to keep a project moving. You would be better served to not chase just recessive visuals and slow down and add codes because it lines you up to have animals that other people won't have. A desert ghost clown is cool. A spot-nose leopard yellowbelly desert ghost clown is way cooler, but takes longer to make.

Yeah, look at uh...

Yeah, I was actually, I had this conversation the other day.

No, it's about desert ghost, real quick, to anticipate. You said because you're talking about desert ghost clown stuff. I feel like there is a desert ghost clowns are everywhere, but there's not many combo desert ghost clowns.

Exactly. Well, everybody's chasing that third or fourth recessive. They're not chasing...

All the, I mean, think of how many combos there are for clown right now. That's what I'm saying. You do them all with Desert Ghost.

Yeah. People visual people bred to hit the visuals.

But the person or the people who said, I want black, pastel, yellow, you know, I want the codeoms in it and I'm going to, I'm going to take the three to five year route, they'll be better off in the long term because...

For sure. I mean, how many Palm Street Desert Ghost clans have been made realistically?

Yeah.

Maybe.

Very, very many.

Very few.

Probably less than five, right? Something like that.

Yeah.

Probably less than that.

Yeah.

I agree with that. Incomplete dominance tend to look better.

And that's a, but you know, I mean, I think there's an argument for both. I think it's a strategy decision on whether you are in it for the long haul and you think the value will come eventually or if you're trying to, I don't want to say race, but rush to...

It also depends on what you got to work with, whether you're, you're buying it to invest, like if you got the stuff to make the triple, if you get the, say you get lucky and you hit the triple male and then you can throw that back into all your clown combo girls and your stuff like that and then you can get those in that way rather than if you made them to begin with and you made triple heads or something like that. So, I think you can go both routes. It just depends on what you have to work with or whether you're willing to buy.

Yeah, I think you could do both routes. I was just saying that there is value in both, but the initial value of chasing something and not been done before will get you money, but long term you end up at a dead end because now you are long term, you definitely need the clay dominance to to make a project.

You do have to play the, the both...

Double, your triple, your quad, your whatever visual. It's there. You are.

Mhm.

I mean...

Yeah.

Yeah. It's just back up again.

Yeah. Justin nailed it. The recessives are the base. Yeah. So, I I I see recessives as as a ca as a canvas. You know what I mean? Exactly. And and then the paint that you're using to paint onto the canvas is the incomplete dominance.

For sure. I've heard Yeah. different ways whether like the the base of the cake is the recessives and the toppings are the you know the codoms. I mean back when I first started not to bring it back to that but no one cared about recessives. Yeah. It was always about stacking those. It was it was what's the new incomplete dominant? How many can I make? So not to say that nobody cared that how many bananas can get to a point where they at least kind of almost even out a little bit or so I don't know what time we're gonna end dominance become more popular.

I don't know what time we're going to end Jeremy. You'll end this but I do want to ask one question before we leave. It's kind of the like the something for us to build off of next one and get the chat going. Not that the chat hasn't been aged. Shout out to the chat by the way. Thank you for engaging as much as you have. Um curious on your guys thought from a sales standpoint. In other words, this person or this group or whatever, the gene was marketed very well. Most overrated gene in your time in the market. We'll start with the uh the Who's older? You Dale or Steve? Who's the who's the sold to George Washington?

That's right. Is it Steve? Jeremy second. Dale's younger than you. I'm 40. So Steve, we'll start with you. You're the oldest. I know mine. I know mine. But Steve, what is the start again? What is the most overhyped jean that you have seen in your time in the market?

Oh jeez, that's a tough one, man. I can't I'm gonna make enemies, but I always have mine. I I know mine. So, and chat before Steve answers, chat, put yours in. I would love for us to get through ours and discuss yours as well.

Um, that's a real tough one. I I overhyped the gene that just wasn't worth or didn't prove out to be or whatever it just didn't didn't fulfill its hype.

Does it have to be a real gene? Could be. Does it have to be Can it be a combo? Mhm.

Okay. Um I'll say no, I can't say that. H I I would have probably about, you know, six, seven months ago before Justin made that snake, I would have said sunset all day long.

See, I I was I was not impressed by sunset at all. I saw it. Okay. I agree. I can't really say that. I'll tell you right now, a single gene 180. Yeah. Full full disclosure, chat. a single jean.

Okay, I'll take the bucks. Just a single jean sunset. I thought that there was a lot of hype on something that I didn't think looked good as an adult and I bought one.

You don't go next Justin. I had one. I I don't have it into a bag. I got out of it. Yeah, he's he's having a hard time. But yes, but we're talking about the single gene. But that's just my opinion on what I like. Leviathan greatly disagrees with you. Will said put his comfort on. There we go. Okay, everybody has something different. Dale, you're next. OG on the panel is Dale. So, after Steve,

why do I got to go next? I don't know. Okay, I'll go next if you want. Okay. Okay. Okay. Go ahead, Jared. Mimic.

I still don't know what the hell that gene does. I still don't understand exactly. That's That's the thing. Nobody knows what it is, but they made such a big thing over it, you know? Sorry, Steve. To me, it's it's a gene that that that that is hatched out one color and then changes. How can you work projects or plan when it's doing such a dramatic change?

Well, is that the one that's like born like a banana and then turn into a normal or something like that? I think it's the other way. I'm not 100% thing. Nobody It almost comes out. No, it comes out looking like monarchish and turns banana. Yeah, it's darker and turns lighter. Yeah. So, that's that's that's that's my uh Well, as far as I know, I don't think any of for sale or at least I've never seen any.

Justin, you're up. I am up. I'm gonna say Zebra for sure. Oh, [ __ ] [ __ ] you, Steve. What do you say? You redeemed that project. I mean, Justin, I'm looking 180. Justin, I want to invest and I'm just thinking I think I'm gonna buy some Super Mackenzies. What are your thoughts, Justin?

Oh, there we go. Not even out. Um, not to hurt Dale's feelings a little bit, but for the only one gene I probably don't work with at all and I don't really care because in my opinion at least, besides the clowns, I it doesn't really Dale, he's attacking the Kiki. No, no, like the clown. I found one I like, but besides that, I don't really I don't know. I haven't seen anything like You know what I want to see? I want to see a DG exantic genetic stripe. Yeah. See, I think that would look I think that would change. See, but then he makes one snake and everybody be like, "Holy [ __ ] that's an amazing snake." And it would change everybody's opinion on it. Just like my opinion changed on the Sunset Ultram.

I have grown up for that. They're I haven't tested them, but they're Poset Clown also. Oh, here's a good one right here. Uh, Leviathan scaleless. I forgot about that. That's about that. From a breeder standpoint, I agree. From a pet standpoint, they're [ __ ] awesome. No, you still have yours, right? I still do. She's awesome. I love her. Do you know what Scalus can't get? Eggs. Eggs, right? Or eggs? No. Yeah, but I'm saying as a pet. I said as a pet. You wouldn't care about eggs to a pet. That's true. I've never I've never had a full scalless. I had I have a scalless aanthic. A visual aanthic. Never owned any. The thing is the hype. The question was what had so much hype.

So I'll tell you right now Mike from her collectors you stealing ass thief. My most overhyped gene that I have been with for like three years is LSR fire. I don't care what three initials you put. It's just [ __ ] fire. And yeah, in a world where desert ghost and lace exire LSR fire ain't [ __ ] And that and I'm not knocking him and if I met him, I'm sure he's a very nice man, but that dude made a lot of money selling fire. No, I agree. Hey, remember Brite back in the day? Well, well, that's why I asked you if I had Mike, you owe me money. You owe me lunch. Next time we see each other, you stealing son of a [ __ ]

I I would go with Gan X. So, okay, that's another one. Yeah, that's a good one. GX. Cuz like you don't really hear about nothing about GX no more. Wait, did I buy a GX from Steve? I was going to say Jeremy's gonna punch somebody in the face. Probably. I sold that off a long time ago. Turns out that was was the one that had the tornado in it, too. Yeah. Yeah. My Yeah. Yeah.

So, Steve, knowing what you know now, we're going to give Steve a chance to redeem himself. Uh oh. Because Steve literally answered, "I have a gene and I've changed my mind." What's the gene that you haven't changed your mind on? What is the most overhyped gene right now? Be controversial, Steve. It's okay. No, there's enough people that don't like you anyway. That's true. Mhm. We love you. Uh oh, he's muted. This really is it something out there that is really being promoted that nobody's really paying attention to?

No, no, it could be. Let me let me be clear. So my my criteria for this gene is valuewise it doesn't meet the hype. It could be a legit gene. It could be real. I'm not saying it's not real. I'm just saying what people have been buying it for, the investment, the stuff, it didn't turn out it didn't turn out to be what it was supposed to be. I know what it is too. Okay. Yeah. I think of that gene. It It's not my place to say it, but I think everybody knows what we're talking about.

What are you talking about? I don't know. Oh, there it is. That comment. Oh, what is it? How do you say that? Found it out. Um, what is it? Steve, can you say that word? Me muting him. I didn't say it. I didn't say it. What is it? It's uh How do you say that? Now, my full thoughts on this is full disclosure. Make your money if you can, but uh yeah, use car salesman. I'll just say that. I don't know. I don't know if it has the legs. Wait, a lot of people have invested into it. A ton. And I'm not saying they made a mistake, but I will say I question the validity of its claims. That's what I'm saying.

Okay, Well, even if it is just a line safe, go ahead. If it's a lime bred animal and it's that clean and that good, you're paying for quality anyway. You're not going for the cheapest version. You're not going to buy the shittiest Orange Dream you're going to find. You're going to find the nicest one you can. Wait, what do you mean line? Go ahead. Wait, wait. You jump. You You skipped an explanation. If If you're If you're breeding and you're producing stuff that looks like that, that's that nice, you're paying for that quality. You're not paying for a shitty version of an orange dream. You're paying for that. Scrambler could potentially be I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that he put the work in. He put the work in for that. I don't know if anyone on the panel Jeremy gave up. He ran away. I want you guys. He did run away in the chat. I want to see. But honestly, you're always paying. You're paying for quality. What the hell? They're just dropping. They're just scared. Look, look what we did. Look at They're coming for them. They're coming for them. Um, we can say Chris Hearn has called in the SWAT teams already and they're coming and taking the rest of the panel out of here. Uh, I like Black Barnhard Black Pastel. But we proved but Barnhard black pastel is a different gene. Sheding has proved that genetic. We only proved that there's five different black pastels. Yeah. Yes. How many different yellow bellies are there? There's two different ultrams there. There's multiple tests of a lot of I believe there might be more than one test for rentstrike. I think that's why they're having such a problem with it. Shed testing. Could be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I And you know what? That'll be a great future show. Maybe next show. Jeremy, are you okay with that? our next show.

I just walked back in. I didn't I didn't hear anything anybody said. I I think next show we can talk about and it'll probably fill up the whole show. Pros and cons what testing has done. It's going good and bad. That could be a segment. What happened to Dale? I don't I don't we had to get a beer. He went to go get I'm right here. Cold pea water. I I I got a quick question. I didn't I just Am I not in here anymore? Your screen's We can hear you. We just can't see you. Yeah. Oh, well, I'm here. Why are Why are you you screen? You turned your uh screen off or something. I don't think so. I'll delete or I'll come back in.

All right. Um, and I want to say this guys, we can talk about the shed thing right now. I mean, it's not from the standpoint, guys. I'm not going to shy away from not even controversy. I think controversy is overrated, but there are things that I feel like certain uh things become taboo in our industry and that's dangerous. We should always feel free to express ourselves and not it doesn't mean I hate them. It doesn't mean they're my enemies. Doesn't mean I disagree with someone that means then they're a bad person. But we have to get to a point of normaly where things can be discussed openly and honestly and it only benefits our hobby. So, I don't mean to pick on you, Steve, or anyone on the panel or the chat, but we all talk on the side. You know, Jeremy and Steve talk about phone calls, but we all do that and even in the chat. And I think this our, you know, if you're going to ask us what separates this from other podcasts is that we're we're just a bunch of guys hanging out talking about [ __ ] that we really talk about. And you don't have to agree with us, but we should be able to talk about it. That's just my thought.

When we talked about doing the show, I just wanted to talk more about the snakes instead of the business and the market and all that other stuff. A lot of the podcasts kind of get away from a lot of that because everything is revolving around a business. Um, when we all started, every not everybody went into this as a a business. It was basically a hobby for most people. Um, there is some people, you know, in the COVID days that came in for money, but for the most part, it this is something that you loved and that's why you got in into it and that's why you stay in it.

Yeah. Full disclosure, guys, I will never be a full-time snake breeder. It's never been in my plans. I've never thought about it. It's something that I love. I think they're the coolest animals in the world. I like making cool [ __ ] I am not marching towards being Dale, Steve, or Justin. I respect them. They're obviously I'm friends with them because I respect them, but I'm not going to be them. I think they do something that I'm not capable of because for me it's about the animals and the passion and what I like. And it's not saying it's not about them for that, but I like my job and I'm going to keep doing my job. Am I back in here? But I just want to make Yeah. Yeah. We can I just want to make cool [ __ ] Like if you Why are you in the snakes? I like cool [ __ ] That's why.

Yeah. I uh same thing with with what Miguel just said as far as I go, but I am going to be full-time eventually. Mainly because I'm going to be retiring from my other job because hanging cabinets for 30 years beats up your body and uh yeah, can't be doing that [ __ ] much longer. But uh the snake thing will always be uh with me. And I respect Jeremy for the way that he's done it. Yeah, the way that Jeremy has done it, it's it's been methodical. He's been precise and planned it out. I respect the way he's done it. And if I was to actually decide to go full-time, there probably be many parts of Jeremy's journey that I would mimic. It's just not my journey. So, while I can respect and understand, like, like I said, Justin, you know, if you're part of this panel, how can you not respect someone who I mean, the dude's worked for himself his whole life? For sure. Doing stinks. Like, let's talk let's talk a little bit about the future of this podcast real quick. Just just real quick. Um, somebody earlier in the comments said, uh, who was it? I think it was Mike. I don't know. Um, something about, uh, they want to do want to see us on more than once a month. What are you guys' thoughts on that? And, and let me let me talk real quick before anybody says that. The the problem is with all five of us being on, a lot of us do shows and some of us are doing different shows than others. So, the timing to get everybody on is going to be really tricky. So, it's not going to be consistent days like today is Friday.

I would say let's try to make it a consistent day. It might come down to scheduling. Say one of us can't make it one week. Bring somebody reach out. Bring somebody else in. Yeah. Yeah. I I I would say we would at least have five people. Yeah. I don't know if it would always be the same. I would say at least three. I mean, we all got stuff going on, but I mean, for sure. We'll see. I'm I'm good with two. I mean, if we can fit it in. I can probably also do two. It's It just depends on what on the weekend. I'll be honest. It It depends on how much engagement we get. We talk naturally outside of this. Yeah. How much do people want to hear us talk? Well, let let me ask you this, Miguel. Are you having fun doing it, whether people are listening or not? I always love this. No. Yeah, we don't. Well, then it doesn't matter how much engagement we have. If we like Especially probably the more it goes on, it'll be more natural. But yeah, but what I meant from like engagement is the chat will help give us ideas, push us forward. It's it's easy to talk about next month, but 12 months from now, what are we doing? Renewing our renewing our uh Streamyard if if if we keep going with this. Honestly, we're we're just winging this and we're just playing it by ear. If it works out and it's cool, awesome. We're not looking for sponsors. We're not looking for any of that stuff. You know what I mean? If anybody wants to sponsor us, we'll take it. But yeah, that's We didn't even have a topic to talk about until about three minutes before the show started. Still didn't have a topic to talk about. That's right. It'll probably be like that every show. I mean, somebody asked me early on when I when I sent out these, you know, the links to or just put it out there to a bunch of different people. They were like, "What what's the topic going to be?" We don't have a topic. We're just going to kind of wing it and five of us on here, we'll come up with something. Yeah. In the beginning, it was a little shaky, but, you know, we we pushed through it and it'll just get better every time we do this. Um, yeah, I'll I'll be honest. I think that's our strong point. if if we're being, you know, like let's just call it what we will. The fact that there are no boundaries gives us freedom to explore kind of spaces and the and every most other shows, I'm not saying every show, but most other shows when they drive themselves into agenda, they drive themselves into a dead end. And the fact that we have the freedom to just discuss whatever we're talking about, whatever's relevant, gives us it. It makes it hard for I feel bad for Jeremy trying to make thumbnails about what the hell the next show is going to be because we don't know. But yeah, but as far as engagement and the chat, like I said, I mean, we even went through the chat and answered a lot of questions. Shout out to Mike for putting a lot of good stuff on there. But I think that's the future of this show is maybe we won't always be the same five. Maybe some people will come in, you know, when people can't make it, like I said, shows or whatever. But it is the relevancy of the times that are going to keep us relevant, not Jared, to answer your question, um, it's it's going to be hard to be consistent to be honest with you. And that's just the way it is for us. I mean, that's the way this show is going to just be because like I said, all five of us are road dogs. You know, we do shows. Some of us are doing, you know, three, four shows a month. Uh, well, I don't know if anybody's doing four shows in a month, but some of us are doing shows when others aren't follow this month. This month, but I've done it. I wouldn't mind doing two a month, but I just don't know if it's going to be if we just do decide to do it on Fridays. I don't know if it's going to be like the first Friday of every month, the second, or you know, it's going to be one of those. I mean, we could do it, but there'll be there'll be Steve sitting in a hotel room joining, you know. I think we could do it. We could probably commit. I think once a month is is a fairly um I think for the chat, I would say this what you guys are saying and like probably what would help the show grow is at least adding future date. You know, being able to show like, hey, next Friday or you know, just being able to be able to say when we're going to do the show. I don't know we cons can commit to consistently doing the show scheduled saying oh every third Friday or I'm just random exactly that's what I was getting at I don't think we can do that and if all five if I'd like to obviously try to get all five of us on each time but and we're not really trying to pull um guests in I don't I don't know we we haven't really talked about not yet I mean yeah I think I think this is a shoot in the [ __ ] kind of So yeah. Yeah. And if we do it very selective. Yeah. Well, at this point, you did the StreamYard over a month ago, so it took us this long to get on the first time because of scheduling. Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying. So it's it's really tough. I mean, Jared, you you have a show. How tough is it to get somebody on your show? Just one person. We got five different people with five different schedules that we got to try to match up. You know what I mean? So, it's a little a little tricky that way, which that's fine. But, uh, anyways, that's that's what my thoughts are with that. Um, what about the thumbnail contest? Is that something that that's kind of corny or what?

I definitely think we at least need to take more group pictures if we're going to do P were all five of those. Well, that was the plan like all the like the last four shows and we didn't do it. Yeah. I'd say Jeremy, we should probably let's schedule. we have January. Let's do February, March, and just build momentum. I'm not saying that we don't have chat engagement now, but let's build momentum and then start doing those things. I think for now, let's just establish who we are as far as where we are in this podcasting snake world and then we will do that. if if you're okay with if you guys are okay with that. I think the next two shows, February and March, should just be what we just did and then we can start building on it. But we should establish who we are. Yeah. All right. Three out of five of us have a show in two weeks. What is it? Two weeks we're going to be Reptilian Nation Tampa. That's going to be a big show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a there's a lot. Oh, actually, good segue. If we're close to ending next shows, where where can people see you physically next? Jeremy, we'll start with you. The show Steve just mentioned the um Reptilian Tampa. We're not doing Orlando, Jeremy. Orlando. Oh, I'm doing Orlando, too. Yeah, next weekend. Is it next weekend? Yeah, not me. Yeah, I won't be there. For those of you who want to get some pause heads at tornadoes, me, Jeremy, and Justin, and Miguel, we'll all be in Orlando. Miguel, Miguel will make an appearance. I will be there. I got shafted. All right. Well, Orlando Repon next weekend and then they'll be in Tampa the following weekend. I'll be on a cruise. So, Steve will be Steve Wer. So, okay. So, next weekend, we're talking next weekend, guys. You will see lost again. Jeremy and Justin. Steve, your next show is when? Reptilia Nation Tampa. Justin and Jeremy will be at that one also. Bunch of local breeders. Um and then I have Reptilia Nation West Palm Beach with Justin and Jeremy again. Yeah. And then that's February Valentine's Day weekend. Yeah. Fourth February. And then back in Tampa again, weekend after says I love you like a sunset at Ultram. I'm saying I always seem to be vending a show on Valentine's Day or my wife's birthday. Or our anniversary. That always seems to come up. Usually like Atlanta somewhere on there. But that's the life of a snake breeder. You don't take weekends off because it's uh Dale, are you doing your reptilianation after uh Orlando? No, I'm I'll be on a cruise that weekend. All right. So, what's your next black again? Did you do that on purpose? Did I go black again? The sound changed. I don't know. Something he just left. Yeah, he was pissed. Don't Don't go live in uh Dant [ __ ] internet sucks. And it takes like five years to build a house. I live in the boonies. Steve does. For those of you who don't know, Steve lives in Brooksville in between a trash can, a mailbox, and like six cows. Yeah, with I have driven down a street driveway and had to stop so the deer could cross. And that is not a madeup story. That's That's a daily occurrence for me. Yeah, that is that is a Oh [ __ ] And then the whole family runs across and then I keep going. Yeah, I don't know why it keeps going. Mike said uh once you go black, you don't go back and you won't cry. I don't know why it keeps doing I it I could tell once you go brown, you never disappeared again. Like I'll have to get on the computer next time and have enough time to prepare. So yeah. So after Orlando, what is your next show? After Orlando is Tampa, Tampa. So gross. Yeah. Yeah. Tampa in February. Okay. Tampa February. That's always a fun show. I'll be doing that one. I do like that. Yeah. For those of you who enjoyed our content and want to continue, please make sure you hit the like button. It'll just give us the feedback that we need to continue this. Uh oh. All right. So, what do you guys think? Uh wrap it up here in a few minutes. I think so. Yeah. I'll say I'll say this. Let's give it uh what is it? 8:52. I got 853. We'll go till 9ine. So, Chad, if you have any questions or something you'd like us to kind of hot topic, hot issues. You got seven minutes. We'll keep talking for seven minutes, but you got seven minutes to give us some feedback. Otherwise, we'll keep going. Um but yeah, thank you. Appreciate that. So, for those of you who don't know, I do want to call this out. If in the future if if any of you guys are moving or, you know, uh planning on building a house, don't pick trees that are still growing like Dale did. Dale was That tree is 12 feet long. I like that in my house. And he had to wait like four years for his house. That had nothing to do with the trees. That was a fun fact. It's just building a house. My house took almost three years to build. Did My house took 5 months? Just as long as mine. So, yes, you moved into an HOA that you don't like anymore, Miguel. You're already talking about moving. Yeah, I do need to leave. I'm staying here for the rest of my life. Damn. Pretty badass place you got there, D. I would too, man. Thank you. Jeremy's just need to get the building done, so Yeah, Jeremy the next one to get some property. Gotta get Justin to get some property. Yeah. Okay. So, that's an interesting one. So, let's read Jim Exotic. So, they're saying we need to pull out a snake and then let the chat vote before Yeah, we're not we're not we're not doing a snake showoffs on on this show. It's just I don't have snakes here. So, same. Yeah, I don't have snakes here either. Yeah, there's too many other shows that show snakes. We don't need to do that. Yeah, I know it's worth a shot, but I will say we are being, you know, to Jeremy's point, there are lots of podcasts and I do, you know, maybe we spend the next couple minutes talking about by this, but Jonathan, mine is going to be the tornado. I do think they I do think they've fallen off some bit. You know, I do think the uh the regurgitation of similar content has gotten to people. I could see you drink a lot tonight and that's not what we're aiming for. We're learn those words. Boy, you're leaning a little bit more over. Oh, yeah. Starting to lean over more and taking a little longer to talk. Yeah. Look at that. That's his fifth one. Sixth. Jonathan want to know what our favorite project this season is. Go see. Anybody got any favorite projects? Um, I got a few. I'm working on more DGantic stuff. DG Exantic Pi. Um, still probably gonna make a few more hits for hypo puzzle stuff. I'm hitting that a little bit harder. Definitely more Ultra Male puzzle stuff. Hopefully visuals this year with some combos. Um, zebra. Always working zebra stuff. Pides I'm kind of trying to dwindle down a little bit on. Um, not as much and probably not as much clown either, honestly. I think there's a lot of clown out there and um I just don't want to keep making the same kind of stuff because with the the I mean don't get me wrong, clowns are beautiful. They're they're beautiful snakes and we can make really make a lot of really cool combos with it. But if you're just going to make something that somebody else made right now, I don't know if it has as much value as it did. You talking about dust clowns or you talking about clown like clown combos and stuff like that? Yeah. Uh, doubles and triples are always going to have their value. Um, but for the most part, I mean, just just clown it and self, I mean, there's a lot of clown combos out there. I mean, to make something new and original is going to be tough. Yeah. Unless you're going with a second recessive. Um, a clown project I think that's really really nice that not a ton of people are working is Ultramale Clown. Nobody's really touching that project. Never seen that one. Ultra Male Clown Sunset. Yeah, that could be Ultra Male Clown Sunset. I am a little behind on the project. Yeah, a little I'm starting to work. I'm just I'm I'm behind on it because I didn't have much Ultram Clown stuff until now. Um so I'm just start just starting to work on it now. I'm way behind on the Ultram Clown. It that that project evaded me for the last like eight years of trying to make stuff in it. So, yeah, I'm working a lot of uh clown pi stuff. I know they lost a lot of value, but I still like the way they look and I'm going to continue working it. You know, I'm I'm actually shooting for the Hayabusa super red stripe clown pi this year. I missed on it last year. But, uh I did make those right now. Yeah, I made I made I think it's a red stripe. I know it's a hurricane. I think red stripe too. Clown pie. It looks really good. you know, after seeing that, you know, I'm gonna keep pushing forward on that. Um, that's one of my I think lace is another big one. Lace is another I want to work a lot more with. Oh, Steve, there's a question for you in the chat. Uh, oh, what's what's the question? Uh, will become the next foundation for zebra outside of hypo pastel zebra. Uh um outside of hypo I think ultra is going to be really nice. I think Ultram is going to be a cool one. Um should be hypnosis here, right? Or chances. They're paired now. So we'll see. Um fingers crossed. Um really I mean I I think the ultimate goal is going to be like a pastel desert ghost exantic zebra. I think that's going to give it the most potential. I mean, I made the super pastel version of it without DG in it, but I can tell if it was that white with the DG in it, it it's going to look amazing. I just hope it doesn't clean it too much to lose that some of that pattern. Hopefully, it will stay because I made a few this year and some of them the pattern is more broken, some of it's more wavy. Um, but I think DGX I think is gonna be Yes. I made Okay. Was the contrast there? Like I know I think I know you send pictures. No, it's clean. It's clean. It's clean. It takes all the It takes all that that, you know, pixelation out on the sides and stuff. Um, some of my stuff is really granity looking, you know, really grainy and the Desert Ghost cleans it. So maybe, you know, hypo might be better sometimes on I mean, I I've wanted to make Desert Ghosts ever since I got Zebra. So that was like my my first goal that I wanted to make. And I made, you know, double heads the first season and it's taken me till this season to actually do it. And it's like, you know, five years in the making from getting the babies, raising them, and doing everything now. True. My female is saying, what's that? The Trugos might be better than I I love Trugo stuff. I think that's an amazing project. I think it'll be cool. The which one? Yeah. Exantic DG Zebra. Yeah. I think Justin's on his way for that one. Um I have I have I did a um a pairing with Winston. And now is Justin TSK like you or he's in VPI? Justin actually does have some TSK stuff because I did buy a female from him. Um, I think it was over the summer I went to Justin's place and I picked up a few snakes from him and she is getting ready to avulate. The one girl I got from him was an orange dream fire double hat DG um TSK. Was that from the Black Panic stuff? Yes. Same same line kind of thing. Yeah. So he has that I he let go of that girl and he told me he says I would breed this girl you know seven months or whatever right after she laid and almost like to the day I'm getting an ovulation. So that was pretty cool. Um his he knows how how his girl cycle so he knew that that girl was going to you know start breeding at a certain time and actually lay probably right around the same. So that was kind of cool. So that I'll get that collection probably another month or so. Um, but that'll be interesting because I'd read a yellow belly Posh Hurricane DGET TSK to it. So, we'll see how that turns out. Hurricane. You couldn't see the hurricane in it. Um, no. I bought a yellow belly DG hat TSK, but I made a lot of funky babies from it, and I think they might be hurricane. So, I'm going to send a shed in for Yeah, I'm going to send a shed in, too, to make sure. But, um, it still made some really phenomenal babies, even if they are just yellow belly. So, we'll see. All right, guys. It's 9 o' That's my project. That was my project.

All right. Well, it's nine o'clock. I think we wrap it up. Save this for the next show. Uh we'll talk tomorrow or sometime this weekend for a uh for a time for the next show, a day and all that stuff. Um anything anybody want to say real quick before I shut it down? Thanks for coming and watching. Yeah, thanks for Yeah, I do think it's worth for us. Uh Jeremy, if you saw in the private chat, we should stay on collectively just talk about the next show before we we hang up, but end the live. Yeah, I think that's good. Oh, backstage. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Oh, you mean after we we're done here? All right. We'll see you guys. Thanks for uh thanks for joining, guys. Thanks for coming out, hanging with us. Yeah. Keep an eye on our um Instagram stories for when the next show will be posted. And uh we'll see you next time. Oh, is everybody still on? Killed live, right? Yeah. No, it it ended. It says live right now. It says live is still going. Did it? Is it? Yeah. Damn it, Jeremy.