Transcription
Kirk Cameron has been a dear friend of mine for decades. I've known him to be a godly man, a man who loves the Lord, his family, and the church. In a world filled with phonies and makebelieve, especially in Hollywood, I think Kirk's the real deal. He's not only been a friend of Living Waters for nearly 25 years, but we've served in ministry together for a good portion of that time.
Some of you are aware of the fact that Kirk recently shared his questions and developing thoughts about the biblical nature of hell and the fate of the wicked. On his show, his son asked him a question and Kirk gave his honest thoughts, indicating that he finds the view known as conditional mortality or annihilationism to be both compelling and possibly biblically supported. While it certainly seemed from some of the things Kirk said on his podcast that he was indicating that this is now his official view, when I spoke with him personally on the phone, he told me that while he believes the Bible appears to point in the direction of this view, he's not settled on the matter and has asked for further discussion.
Some of you have been asking whether or not Living Waters holds this position and whether or not Kirk still works with us in an official capacity. The answer is no. While we believe Kirk is sincere, we believe that conditional mortality and annihilationism are erroneous views and that the Bible's clear teaching on hell is known as eternal conscious torment. We firmly believe that this is the only correct biblical view.
Once again, we're releasing this video because we want to reaffirm that Living Waters does indeed hold to the biblical and historic Orthodox doctrine of conscious eternal torment. With regard to Kirk working with Living Waters, while we've written books and made television shows together, Kirk has not officially worked here for well over 10 years. While the purpose of this video is not to defend the doctrine of conscious eternal punishment, but rather briefly reaffirm our theological position, we do plan to offer a thorough defense of the doctrine on an upcoming Living Waters podcast episode. That episode will be available on all major podcast platforms and on our ministries's YouTube channel. We'll announce its release across our social media outlets once it becomes available. Let me assure you, Living Waters mission remains unchanged. We will continue warning every man and teaching every man and will not waver in our calling to equip Christians to fulfill the great commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. We will never stop warning people about the reality of eternal punishment in hell and pointing them to the mercy of the Savior.
[music]
Now, watch as I do just that in these recent interviews and make sure you watch until the end to find out how to get the details of that special podcast.
>> Do you believe hell exists?
>> Yes.
>> No, I don't think a literal hell. No.
>> I don't believe in it in like the typical like Christian sense. Like you you go to hell and you're like in a burning lake of fire.
The Apostle Paul said, "Wherefore, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." Now, are you familiar with that scripture?
>> Yes.
>> Do you persuade men?
>> No.
>> Do you persuade others to come to Christ because of your knowledge of God's anger against sin?
>> No.
>> If you saw a child drowning, would you save him or just say, "That's not my kid. It's somebody else's kid."
>> I would save them.
>> And if you didn't, you go to jail. It's called depraved indifference. And it seems much of the church is guilty of the crime of depraved indifference. We're saying, "World to hell. I couldn't care less." And that shows the love of God doesn't dwell within us. So I hope I'm making you feel a little bit uncomfortable. So you'll leave this interview and say, "From now on, I'm going to care [music] about the unsaved and where they spend eternity." And you'll say, "With the Apostle Paul, wherefore knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." Charles Spurgeon said, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you're not saved yourself. Be sure of that."
>> Are you a Christian?
>> No.
>> Do you believe in God?
>> I don't.
>> If you believed hell existed, would that change the way you live?
>> Yes. I don't think so. I think me and God are pretty tight.
>> You don't believe the Bible?
>> Well, I do. Yeah.
>> Well, it says this wrath abides on you and every time you sin, you store up his wrath. Bible calls you a child of disobedience.
>> Yeah.
>> If you didn't believe hell existed, how would that free you up?
>> If you eliminate the fear, it liberates you from that type of damnation. I would say
>> also liberates you to commit adultery and fornicate, to look at pornography, to lie and steal and blaspheme God's name. It liberates you from the power of sin because you don't believe there's a consequence for it.
>> Could you be going to hell?
>> No.
>> That's a coin with the Ten Commandments on it. Which is the hardest to keep?
>> Lying. You shall not lie.
>> Do you have trouble with lying?
>> Yeah.
>> You ever stolen something, even if it's small?
>> Nothing major, but yeah.
>> Just like little things like diamond rings and things like that. Yeah, sure.
>> Jesus said, "If you look at a woman and lust for her, you commit adultery with her in your heart." Have you ever looked at a woman with lust?
>> Yeah.
>> And have you looked with lust?
>> Mhm.
>> Have you had sex before marriage?
[screaming]
>> Yeah.
>> Mhm.
>> Could you be doing something, you know, God would frown upon something morally?
>> Uh, yeah. I mean, nothing outside of like the, you know, really strict original scripture type of stuff like sex before marriage and that sort of thing. But
>> So, you're having sex before marriage?
>> All the time. Yeah. All the time.
What about you? Looking at porn?
>> For sure.
>> Have you ever used God's name in vain?
[laughter]
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> And what about you?
>> Yeah, definitely.
>> And you?
>> Always.
>> So, here's a quick summation of your court case on judgment day. Guys, you've told me you're lying, thieving, blasphemous, fornicating, [laughter] adulterous at heart.
>> Oh, you see? Yeah.
>> And you have to face God on judgment day. If he judges you by those 10 commandments, you're going to be innocent or guilty.
>> Wow. I'd be guilty.
>> I'd be guilty, but I don't believe in God. So
>> it doesn't change anything if someone doesn't believe in the judge and he gives you the electric chair. Saying I don't believe in the electric chair doesn't change reality,
>> right? Cuz you can still get the electric chair at the end of the day.
>> So if you're guilty on judgment day, would you go to heaven or hell?
>> If I'm guilty, I'd be going to hell.
>> I'd be going to hell as well.
>> That breaks my heart. I love both of you. I don't want you to go to hell. You can't see tears in my eyes. I've got tears in my voice. I really care about you. So if God judges you by the ten commandments on judgment day, you're going to be innocent or guilty.
>> If you are looking at the scale of like of that and if you are assuming that perfection lies within are you innocent or guilty? Which would it be? Let me help you out. You'd be guilty like the rest of us.
>> There's not a righteous person on the face of the earth. And if you die in your sins, you're going to end up in hell. And that horrifies me. Garrett, I love you. I don't want you to go to hell. I don't want God to give you justice. I want him to give you mercy. And so, you need to repent and put your trust in Jesus and have your sins washed away.
>> I view what what you're talking about completely differently.
>> The Bible says the wages of sin is death. In other words, God is paying you in death for your sins. It's like a judge who looks at a criminal that's committed murder, but he says, "I'm a good person, judge." The judge says, "I'm going to show you how serious your crime is. I'm giving you the death sentence. This is your wages. This is what you've earned." And Austin, sin is so serious to a holy God, he's given you the death sentence. You're on death row. Nice holding cell. Blue roof, good air conditioning, good lighting. But this life is a holding cell. And your death will be evidence to you that God is deadly serious about sin. Nice dog. But don't let it distract you from what I'm saying.
>> Laughing at the dog. I was laughing at you.
>> Death is no laughing matter. I love you. I don't want you to die in your sins. I don't want you to end up in hell. I don't want God to give you justice. I want to see you saved and going to heaven cuz I love you. I care about you. Yeah. I don't want you to end up in hell. That breaks my heart. You guys don't realize this, but I love you. I don't care if you mock me. I only care if you listen to what I'm saying and think about it.
>> Mhm.
>> Now, what did God do for guilty sinners like you and me so we wouldn't have to go to hell.
>> You actually do know, but because you don't understand it, you don't value it.
>> He brought his son down here to die for us.
>> Yeah. Now, most everybody knows that, but they don't know this. In Austin, if you can get a grip of this, it'll change everything for you. So, don't let anything distract you. No dogs, nothing funny that I say, no sky, just listen real close because this is life-changing. Okay?
>> Yeah.
>> I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable. I want this to be a conversation between you and me, where you share your thoughts, what you've done, where I share the gospel with you, that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And if you die in your sins tonight and God gives you justice, I'm free from your blood because I've told you, Garrett, you must repent and trust alone in Jesus. Don't have your own philosophy. Just get on your knees before God. Confess and forsake your sins. Trust in Jesus. And you've got God's promise. You'll pass from death to life. And I want to thank you for listening to me. And I hope you spend some time reading the scriptures because what I've told you is nothing but scripture. Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Have you heard of Jesus dying on the cross?
>> I've heard of that one. Yeah.
>> Why did he die?
>> Uh, for us for our sins.
The ten commandments are called the moral law. You and I broke the law. Jesus paid the fine. That's what happened on that cross. That's why I said it is finished. Just before he died, he was saying paid in full. Here's what'll make it make sense. If you're in court and you've got speeding fines and you plead guilty, a judge will let you go. If someone pays those fines, you say, "You can leave, guys. You're out of here. You're free to go." Even though you're guilty, and it's legal for him to let you go.
>> Mhm.
>> Well, God can legally take death off you because Jesus paid the fine on that cross.
>> And then he rose from the dead and defeated death. And if you'll simply repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus, God promises he'll grant you everlasting life as a free gift. Not because you're good, but because he's good and kind and rich in mercy. Now, I know you think this is funny, but let me share one thing with you. This is what the Bible says.
>> The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
>> And I know that. And I know
>> ahead of that one. Yeah.
>> Well, it's true. We we we mock the thought of someone paying our fine if we don't realize we're broken the law. But if you realize you've broken God's law and you're guilty before God and you're heading for hell,
>> then Christ dying on the cross will be the best news you could ever hope to hear because it means you can have everlasting life as a free gift. All because of God's amazing grace.
Guys, you've been very respectful. I know you've had a good laugh, but you've listened to me and I really appreciate that. You going to think about what we talked about?
>> Of course. I told you I think about it all the time.
>> Well, please do. God knows your heart. Before I was a Christian, there was a time in my life, 6 months before I came to Christ, where I cried out in frustration at the futility of life and reality of death. And I wasn't even praying. I was just crying out. And so God sees your heart. He knows what you're crying out for. And the Bible likens you and I to men who are groping, blind men, till we come to Christ, where Jesus said, "I'm the light of the world. He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
You going to think about what we talked about?
>> Yeah.
[laughter]
>> Do you have a Bible at home?
>> I don't.
>> Any of your family Christians?
>> Nope.
>> Any of your family Christian?
>> No. I come from a long line of British atheists.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. So, this was Yeah. Never going to go anywhere for me.
>> That's what you think, buddy.
[laughter]
>> Yeah. Maybe he'll get me. I don't know.
>> Well, we all think exactly like that. The Bible says there's none that seeks after God. He draws you to himself because of his kindness.
You have a Bible at home?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Uh, can I give you an In-N-Out card each?
>> Yes. Would you like one?
>> Of course. Is Is this because it's a Christian establishment?
>> Yeah, it is. They've got They've got verses on their cups, haven't they?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Remember the verses they have on the cups?
>> Something John something.
>> John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him or trusts in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. And that's what I've been telling you. Everlasting life is a free gift of God. You don't have to get religious. Don't clean up your life. Just say, "God, I'm sorry. Turn from your sins and trust in Jesus like you trust a parachute."
>> Mhm.
>> Can I give you a book I've written?
>> Yes.
>> I would like a book.
>> You'd like a book?
>> Okay, let me get it.
>> It's got 600,000 in print.
>> Wow.
>> It's called Scientific Facts in the Bible.
>> Wow. It's Dinosaur and Einstein on here.
>> Cool.
>> That's the Gospel of John, which is the fourth book of the New Testament.
>> It's a metaphor.
>> I like that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's very cool. It's clever. Very good.
>> Thank you guys.
>> Thank you. Thank you very much.
>> Can I pray with you guys? Would that embarrass you?
>> No, not at all.
>> You've never embarrassed me.
>> It It was It was good talking to you. It was.
>> How do you feel?
>> I feel great.
>> Well, nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Can I give you a hug?
Here's an easy way to share your faith. Aluminum Ten Commandment coins, commandments on one side, the gospel on the other. Available at livingwaters.com. We'll be announcing the special podcast on the biblical and historic Orthodox doctrine of conscious eternal torment through our newsletter and across our social media platforms as soon as it's available. The best way you can be sure you don't miss it is to subscribe to the [music] podcast.