Transcription
hey Angela how's your life no that
sounded insincere wait wait wait hey
Angela um how's your life that's too big
Stephen I can't I can't I can't answer
that in less than a
paragraph I'm Angela Duckworth and I'm
Steven Dubner I'm a psychologist at pen
and I run an educational nonprofit
called character lab you also wrote the
book grit yes and I am a writer and I
host a podcast called Freakonomics radio
and you wrote the book Freakonomics
among quite a few others I did and you
and I became friends we did and we
discovered that both of us really like
to ask each other questions and there's
only one rule the rule is there are are
no stupid
questions today on no stupid questions
will covid-19 kill the handshake what
about a karate chop to their hand to
knock it down I think we should each
carry a symbol and then when we meet
each other we can go
cling also humans have been dealing with
uncertainty forever and yet why do you
think we are freaking out about not
being able to predict the future now it
was hard for me to imagine that it could
get better than Mom bringing home a
cheeseburger all right so Angela
Duckworth I have a question for you
today um shoot a lot of us uh including
you and me have spent weeks or months in
some sort of isolation or lockdown
because of covid-19 so what would you
predict is one social interaction or
maybe even a personal habit that you
think many people will not revert to
when this is all over so I'm I'm going
to go with a behavior that I've long
wanted to phase out of human society
anyway that was pre- pandemic and that
is
handshaking it's gross right I can't
remember the last time I had a a good
handshake but I can remember lots of
icky ones like germs aside right yeah
what do you have against the handshake
besides germs though you just don't like
touching
people's hands are like usually sweaty
or there's this like fleshy it's it's
not a pleasant thing to to touch you're
describing humans basically it's not
just the hand right it's yeah I don't
want to shake any other part of a of a
human's body when I meet them but look
physical touch I don't think is going to
ever totally go out of style right human
beings are obviously craving some kind
of physical contact and I'm Pro hug yeah
but you can can I just say you are the
weirdest hugger in the world you have
criticized my hugging um Stephen in the
past and maybe given me a complex I
wouldn't say criticized I would say
critiqued belittled mean it to be a
criticism I just pointed out how unusual
it is now that I hear you describe your
aversion to touching any part of anyone
it it makes perfect sense because your
hug looks like the action of some
someone who doesn't want to get close to
the other person but feel they're
compelled to so you go in with one arm
around the other person my right arm at
the same time though you're actually
pulling your left arm further back yeah
sort of like a Pilates move it is the
most backhanded hug and then you touch
the person as if they're maybe like you
ever touch Jello to see if it's firmed
up just like barely on the surface so so
hearing you describe your aversion to
handshaking my sense is it's not hands
that you're averse to it's humans well I
do want to greet people warmly but I I
think the Embrace should be as distantly
cordial as possible and and that is the
problem with the handshake right like
you're right in there with the person's
own fleshy sweaty palm and really what
you want to say is like hey how you
doing nice to see you and I think you
could do that with a bow for example how
do you like the salute idea we could go
with the salute yes I've been watching a
lot of Dave Chappelle and um I like it
when he salutes people like the audience
it's very warm I find a salute somewhat
ennobling yes I mean you know it's
typically a sign of um respect to a
superior right but what the heck we can
democratize that but also the way that
most people who aren't in the military
salute it is more just like a wave right
I mean the queen figured this out years
ago we should say she hasn't shaken a
hand in a long time I'm not sure that's
actually true I do think there's like
when people shake hands or they touch
each other in some way it is an act of
trust right so I'm not saying that there
isn't some reason why this ritual that I
have a disliking for you know evolved
but I I still think we should banish it
entirely well you know I'm not sure how
true this is but I've read that the
original handshake one function of the
handshake was to show that you're
unarmed right if I open my hand I don't
have a little knife or oh what about the
other hand yeah that's like you in your
one-handed hug or the dagger strapped to
your ankle right you're hugging me with
the right arm while with the left you're
preparing for the shiv that's going
right into the you know spleen but um it
is interesting to me that the handshake
used to represent the acknowledgement
that there's no weapon here whereas now
the the not shaking hand is meant to
acknowledge that I am not weaponizing
myself against you by spreading my germs
right let's phase it out it certainly
makes sense in the short term but um
humans are funny I mean we've had
epidemics in the past I'm sure there's
been a lot of behavior after past
pandemics that went away for a time and
then came back and we should say just to
be fair there have been many many many
people who've been anti-h handshake for
a long time Donald Trump he's been
anti-h handshake for decades I mean
Howard Hughes was pretty anti-human
contact too he was a hypochondriac yeah
but there have been a lot of people who
say wait a minute this makes no like if
we were meeting 3,000 years ago on the
road to Damascus and we're riding up on
horses I extend my empty hand in
greeting and to show that I don't have a
weapon that makes sense but today when
we're millions and billions of us and
there are a lot of communicable things
does this really make sense so you know
hand hygiene generally has been a topic
that a lot of people have paid a lot of
attention to for many years we've
written a fair amount about it you know
I once advocated I got nowhere with this
but I proposed that the New York City
subway system as soon as you go through
the Turn Style they just have mounted
there a box of free sanitary gloves that
you put on to ride in fact my favorite
thing about New York is when it gets
just cool enough in the fall to wear
gloves in the subway and not look like
you're a crazy person I just wear my
winter gloves to hold the subway pole oh
your winter gloves oh right you don't
look like a freak but if you do that in
the dead of Summer you do look a little
now though it'll be fine yeah I think
the general principle is going to be is
there some substitute behavior that
meets the underlying need saluting or
bowing I don't know if those things are
going to meet the underlying need to
like show trust to show openness uh to
show vulnerability or something then
there's a chance that that will displace
the old Behavior if we can't find a
substitute Behavior to meet the
underlying need then I would agree with
you all things being equal we're going
to RT back but there are so so many
things that you could do that I I'm kind
of you know feeling that handshakes are
going to be one of the first things on
the outlist it's an easy dismissal
you're saying yeah answer me this are
you showing your own trustworthiness or
are you showing that you trust the other
person is it both and what are some
other ways to do that yeah so uh I think
the thing is when you extend your hand
first of all it's an opportunity for
reciprocity it's an opportunity for the
other person to follow the script and to
reciprocate with the Mirror action and
that's a really nice way to begin a
social engagement which is like I do X
and then you immediately follow with
your version of X and so we've now
gotten to page two of the social script
and like okay now we're sort of set up
for the next thing which is like a nice
conversation or or whatever it is but I
do think that's why some of these
Alternatives like the bow which by the
way could be exercise too if we could
you know maybe it should be a lunge how
about a squat a toe touch
squat a bicep curl you know but
something that could be done you know in
matter of seconds and where there's a
clear visual signal from person a and
then person B immediately follows suit
cross-culturally like there's so many
things that other people do do already
right on the other hand we're going to
have probably significantly less
exposure to International Customs over
the next couple years yes we will except
on Zoom calls oh that's an interesting
so maybe you could start this new social
convention via Zoom uh this might be too
convoluted but I think one thing that
builds trust is vulnerability this might
be too much to ask for like the first 5
Seconds of a human interaction with
another human but you know maybe the
first thing you do when you get on your
Zoom call is like I'm a two out of 10 on
a scale from 0 to 10 how are you that's
probably not the right thing but it
would be cool emotional cander you're
saying or vulnerability yeah a little
disclosure you know what I like to say
to people which it only works cuz it
catches them a little off guard so if it
got and it wouldn't work anymore but I
like to say how's your life which is
like a much bigger sounding question and
it actually causes people to pause and
say whoa um hm as opposed to how's it
going which is everybody's like fine
yeah so we could we could start the
tradition of like how's your life until
it gets Bal and sure well let's let's
practice let's go back to the beginning
of this and rather than say hey Angela
how's it going yeah let's do that hey
Angela how's your life no that sounded
insincere wait wait wait hey Angela um
how's your
life that's too big Stephen I can't I
can't I can't I can't answer that in
less than a paragraph unless you're
going to say hey Angela how's your life
on a scale from 0 to 10 but I don't like
that either I don't I don't think that's
going to stick by the way I liked you
really took the deep breath which made
me think that if we're in person that
you're just sucking up all those
microbes in the air that might be worse
than the handshake and then I'm going to
Exhale them on you
all right so Angela I understand
entirely your aversion to handshaking
and your prediction and belief that it
will go away but what are you going to
do when you meet someone at a conference
let's say and the handshake is expect
what do you do this is exactly the
problem Stephen is you can't change any
of these social traditions on your own
we all felt that by the way right
remember the very beginning of
quarantining and then there was this
kind of Lial period where you know some
people were doing the elbow pump and you
know other people were still extending
their hand I actually met a doctor on
the street I remember this all the
offices were closed uh sometime in late
March and he stuck out his hand and I
reflexively shook it without even
thinking and then I thought like oh
that's a bad and B ironic cuz you know
physician I think we can't do this in an
uncoordinated way this is why Stephen
you need to Champion a public health
campaign where all at once
on a given day we honor the handshake we
acknowledge its long and proud history
and then we you know basically put it
away forever how about this you know
those fake rubber hands you buy like in
a stunt store kind of what if we just
all carry those around and Shake rubber
hands with each other so that we still
get the sensation of trust exchange well
if we're going to go that far I think we
should do something like each carry a
symbol and then when we meet each other
we can go cling it's nice that's a
clever idea um so let me ask you this
what happens the next time you're out on
the street and someone says oh Professor
Duckworth so nice to meet you and they
stick out their hand what do you do
let's say this happens tomorrow okay so
I need a plan you know all human um
habits where you know that you are
flexibly do something and then you want
to do something else you actually need
to plan in advance and like mentally
visualize it rehearse it so I I love
this question you're right what is my
plan for what I'm going to do the next
time some insenstive person sticks out
their hand to greet me it has to be very
quick it has to be easy it has to be
maybe even something which uses my arm
what about a karate chop to their hand
to knock it down that would send all the
signals at once no we're not doing that
we're not doing that I'm I'm going to go
with the salute because then like it's
sort of a similar motion it's a very
kind of dramatic Visual and you're not
rejecting them outright I'm honoring
them I'm I'm
I'm saluting them Stephen yeah so you
say the handshake will likely go away at
least for a while which I think makes
perfect sense I think the thing that I
might drop would be agreeing to do
things that I don't really want to do so
the lockdown has basically isolated us
all which has meant that many of our
interactions and obligations you can't
meet them even if you wanted to so and
everybody understands that that's the
other part of this right nobody's going
to say what
there's no guilt yeah so you know one
thing that I have enjoyed is there's a
lack of these forced interactions that
are either socially so can you give me
an example or two you know hey let's
grab a drink or hey I'd like to pick
your brain about this sound like pretty
much all social interaction you're
really enjoying being quarantined well
I'm not going to say I don't and I
should say my life is built kind of for
social isolation I work mostly alone
there are some people I enjoy there's
family there's friends there's strangers
even but there are these forced
interactions that I think I might find a
new way to reject them once they start
coming back I would say that in the
postco era my recommendation is that you
express enthusiasm for what they are
enthusiastic about like Stephen could
you blurb this book or would you be on
my show so you say oh my gosh sounds
like a great book or sounds like a great
show then the next sentence you express
kind of complete Devastation that you
can't do it like unfortunately
tragically I'm not able to blurb your
book be on your show if you just say
unfortunately I can't that's actually no
added information like there was no
because there right and that's good it's
just like oh great idea for a book
unfortunately I can't blurb it leave it
there right they can conjure up whatever
I think by the way most people on the
receiving end of this dismissal I don't
even know if they care that much about
the reason they're just like skimming
your email for the yes or the no right
and then if you're going to go with some
kind of reason I actually wouldn't
recommend saying like you know I stared
into my soul and I realize that I don't
want to spend any time with you really
if you just say unfortunately I can't
and leave it there that person's going
to fill in the blank and they'll
probably do it in a way that's generous
especially if you communicate a lot of
positive emotion and regret that you
can't do that well okay this is nice
this is tactical advice for how to do
what I'm suggesting that someone like me
might want to do but do you think that
this is a social convention that will in
fact change as we come out of lockdown I
think there's going to be a general
learning effect where because of this
forced reset people will discover things
about themselves that they wouldn't have
discovered otherwise but the question is
how long will those learnings last there
are many people for example who come
back from a vacation and they'll say
something like oh my gosh I appreciate
my flushing toilet never in my life well
I take for granted that I have a
flushing toilet and then a week later
they're complaining about their Wi-Fi
connection but I think sometimes we
revert back to because there's a reason
why Stephen there's not only the fact
that you don't want to go to these
social interactions it's also that
something is compelling you to go to
them in the first place you you feel a
sense of obligation you know your family
wants you to go and you're saying that's
not going to go away those things I
would not have any reason to believe
that they are going to evaporate in the
post-pandemic era so if you had a put
money on it you would say the handshake
is much more likely to recede than
forced social interactions that would be
my prediction and remember Stephen I'm
wanting to extinguish the handshake
altogether so I'm hoping it doesn't come
back let me just say one last thing
though to try to persuade you to come
over to my side to see the lack of
utility in these forced social
interactions just think if you would
adopt my mindset how much less
handshaking you would have to do over
the course of your
life you're like I've solved the
handshake problem just never seen
people yes much more efficient
Stephen still to come on no stupid
questions we are all across the entire
Globe worrying about the same things I
don't blame people for being kind of
walloped by uncertainty I'm very anti
the eating of unicorns of
[Music]
course Stephen I have a question for you
I will try to have an answer for you
it's about uncertainty very timely topic
and here's the puzzle I'm struggling
with everybody's complaining and rightly
so about uncertainty about the future
not being able to predict what's going
to happen but uncertainty has been a
bedfellow for human beings for all of
our history why do you think it is that
we are freaking out about not being able
to predict the future now H so I like
that question although it feels a little
paradoxical you're saying that
uncertainty is part of the human
condition and yet you say we're flipping
out about the uncertainty so isn't that
a tautology well I'm just saying that
the fact that we don't know you know
when the economy is going to be back to
normal noral or schools are going to be
open and uh when will there be a vaccine
if there'll be a vaccine okay these are
all real questions but there's such a
discomfort with this uncertainty for
example if our great great great great
grandparents were unable to predict
whether there was going to be a
continuance of the plague or not would
they have the same reaction or have our
expectations about certainty maybe
ratcheted up right uh with like weather
reports by the minute Etc so I think our
expectations have changed in part
because we have gotten a little bit
better at prediction in some Realms so
you know meteorology like now we can
predict the weather yeah meteorology is
not it's not perfect like but within you
know a local geographical area 36 hours
out rainfall predictions are have
actually gotten much better and in other
Realms we've gotten better at predicting
the future but the fact is that
predicting the future is still really
really hard so here's the thing about
uncertainty as you know very well well
better than I but in Psychology and
economics and elsewhere there's a ton of
research showing that uncertainty is
indeed a huge stress producer right we
tend to make suboptimal decisions under
uncertainty it weighs on our physical
and our mental health so your question
is one of those questions about us as a
species really that I find myself asking
all the time which is since this has
been an issue for humans for Millennia
why haven't we collectively mastered it
dealing with the fact that we can't
predict the future yeah and being
distraught by uncertainty like why
haven't we gotten to the point where we
say you know what there's certain things
that can be predicted pretty well many
can't say love why don't we do our best
to do what we can and not freak out as
much over those that we can't and I
think one answer why is that we don't
act collectively all that much we act
individually we've talked in the past
about you know death dying immortality
just as friends cuz that's the kind of
thing we like to talk about yes yeah cuz
that's the kind of thing friends do and
you know it strikes me that when you
make the comment that many people don't
deal with death very realistically or
very well I sometimes think it would be
different if a whole generation died at
once because then there'd be real
Collective motivation to deal with it
differently instead we all do it
individually so like when when I die my
family will respond and they'll have
thoughts about it and grief or maybe not
they may be happy to get rid of me but
if everybody of M my age or cohort died
at the same time then there' probably be
a movement to say you know we should
probably talk about death a little bit
differently so you think that one of the
problems is synchrony that people don't
undergo the same experience at the same
time so you don't have this like
Collective coordinator but right now by
the way we have exactly that we do right
we are all in a way across the entire
Globe worrying about the same thing so
aren't we experiencing that kind of
collective moment of uncertainty that
you wouldn't have even probably been
able to make up in a scenario like 3
months ago I would say yes but I would
also say that in order to solve a
problem you need to have some tools to
solve the problem and I don't think that
many people have thought much or care to
think much even about learning those
tools so so I would say you know let's
look at what uncertainty is there are
two kinds of uncertainty as far as I
know or as far as what Scholars who
write about this know there's epistemic
uncertainty which is actually not
knowing the facts or the numbers or the
process the signs of something and then
there's alator uncertainty which is
basically something you can't know
because there's Randomness or because
there's indeterminacy or there's luck
one is it is known but I don't know it
and the other one is like there is no
answer so you know most uncertainty
mixes these two for instance a lot of
things right now like how many more
people are going to get covid-19 and of
those how many will die and of those how
many will be you know below the age of
45 let's say there there are facts and
science that aren't known fully yet and
then there's a lot of indeterminacy that
has to do with how people behave how
much people pay attention to Contagion
and so on so I don't blame people for
being kind of walloped by uncertainty
but I think the first step is to not
confuse uncertainty with risk that's
something that economists have done some
pretty good work on So You Know risk
according to economists at least is some
potentially bad outcome that can be
measured you can put a probability on it
uncertainty is
more imagined the the the probability is
harder to come up with and our
imaginations often lead us to the worst
possibility and that's why it can be so
paralyzing for us I think we could agree
that there's you know different ways to
think about uncertainty and and I agree
with you that knowing that something is
like a one out of 10 risk
is different from not knowing anything
about the odds at all although we should
also say that a lot of people are pretty
innumerate when it comes to
probabilities too I mean there's been a
lot of medical research that showed that
people don't really understand what a
one in 10 risk really means yes not to
mention apparently that um a lot of
people think that a quarter pounder is
bigger than if there were such a thing
like a third pound if McDonald's came
out with it because you know for four is
bigger than three anyway so yeah these
things can be uh hard to communicate um
which is why we need I guess visuals
okay do you want a good visual do you
know the famous case of the ellsburg
Paradox as it's sometimes called I think
I know but um since I'm not certain that
I know why don't you tell me all right
so you've heard of Daniel Ellsberg
probably he's most famous for his
involvement in the Pentagon papers right
that was him that um got those released
but the ellsburg Paradox was something
that he had done earlier when he was I
guess you know an academic Economist or
maybe getting his PhD or something like
that and it was this experiment that he
set up to illustrate a notion that had
been worked on by a guy named Frank
Knight in Economist at the University of
Chicago and so Frank Knight is kind of
considered the Pioneer in economics of
discussing the differences between risk
and uncertainty So Daniel ellberg was
interpreting Knight's work and he set it
up as this beautiful visual experiment
so the way to see the difference
in risk and uncertainty is you take two
like urns imagine them you know just
jars whatever but not see-through
they're opaque and the first one you are
told contains 100 Balls all of which are
red or black and in fact there are 50
black and 50 red ones okay you're making
the math easy for me okay nice and easy
and the second n you are told also
contains 100 Balls all red or black but
but the number of each color is unknown
so it could be 5050 could be 991 could
be 1 to 99 if your task is to pick a red
ball out of either nurn which nurn do
you choose so imagine that then tell me
your
answer yeah well I'm I'm a little bit
advantaged here because I have heard of
the ellsburg Paradox but I will tell you
my visceral intuition which is that
there's something more attractive about
the urn where I at least know that it's
50/50 and not knowing anything else
about the second earn of course the
expected value would be 50/50 right
because just just as likely that it
would be one out of 99 red versus 99 out
of one and so the average of all those
would be 50/50 anyway but it's a really
beautiful illustration of how aversive
it is to consider those scenarios where
you don't even know what the odds are
and I think that's why people tend to
say like oh given that choice between
picking out of the one earn or the other
I'll choose the one where I know it's
50/50 let me ask you this um Scholars of
early religion argued that one reason
that religion came to be and came to be
so popular was that it helped people
deal with uncertainty and perhaps the
biggest uncertainty of all which is
death you know what happens once we all
Shuffle off this Mortal coil and the
afterlife is an unprovable but very
attractive answer to what lies Beyond so
I'm curious whether you think that as
the world is for the most part become
over time more secular whether you think
that's changed our human relationship
with uncertainty obviously it's hard to
say because a lot of other things have
happened as the world became more
secular including technology and so on
but I'm curious whether you think there
might be a relationship there well um if
that is true I think you could say that
it could have like one of two effects on
our comfort with uncertainty I mean it
could you know make us less comfortable
with uncertainty or more comfortable so
one might imagine that minus those
strong uh narratives or accounts that
were unored and then we should feel like
less certain and then I guess you could
argue against that and say you know
secularization should make us just more
comfortable with the fact that we can't
know right like you take away those
traditions and people just should be
like oh okay that you're not even
supposed to know I mean one thing I
think is a related trend is that like
there's this huge upswing in science as
part of what everyone believe well with
notable exceptions let me say that that
you know we turn to science we would
turn to scientists we would look at
peer-reviewed Publications and random
assignment studies to really know
whether a vaccine works or what you
should do with your diet Etc and I think
the irony here is that scientists are
among the most forward about what they
don't know they always want to say like
this estimate could be as high as this
number and as low as that number um
these are what are literally called
confidence intervals in statistics and
so the irony might be that as the world
thinks oh let's turn to scientists
because they have certainty about what's
going to happen it's usually the
scientists are the most intellectually
humble and the most um likely to say
like oh there are all these nuances and
that's actually why a lot of people
don't like to talk to scientists because
they feel like you know the answer is a
paragraph but all they really wanted was
a sentence
that's so interesting and I totally hear
what you're saying although I wouldn't
have put it in terms of
uncertainty as much as I would put it in
terms of nuance in other words things
aren't as binary as people want them to
be I think it's both so scientists would
completely agree with you you know they
have jargon for that they call them
moderators and boundary conditions right
yes so I find there's one more element
of
uncertainty that's really hard that's
really damaging or frightening is when
there's something that you are fairly
certain about and it doesn't happen so
let's say you're a kid my mother will
come home from work today and then she
doesn't she dies in a car crash uh or my
best friend will take my side in this
argument and he doesn't and I'm
devastated so that to me is
long-term a more difficult problem than
something unlikely actually happening
because now you've learned to stop
trusting the things that you were
certain you could trust yeah I mean
that's genuine surprise right because
you had a mental model of the world and
then that model was violated and by the
way both of the examples that you gave
were bad as opposed to like I thought my
mom was going to bring home a
cheeseburger but actually she came home
with a unicorn and I'll say this about
you know kids and growing up and um uh
you know one of the things that parents
are always told is that you're supposed
to be consistent in your discipline but
I think one of the reasons why you're
given that parenting advice is that in
general if you think about kids as
little organisms that are trying to
figure out what the world is like in
order to respond to it adaptively if
your kid grows up feeling like the world
is a completely unpredictable uncertain
and dangerous place then they are going
to adapt to that by being perhaps a
little more emotionally reactive maybe
always looking on the horizon for
threats maybe not taking feedback well
and developmentally if you have the
opposite a kid who grows up in a very
trustworthy and to some extent
predictable world then they might be
more inclined to take risks to challenge
themselves to delay gratification and I
think if you squint at the developmental
literature you do come to the conclusion
that no the future is not entirely
predictable but to the extent that you
can create a world for your kid that is
within bounds you know consistent and at
least benign then you will incline your
kid to grow up better mhm yeah it was
hard for me to imagine when you were
describing that scenario that it could
get better than Mom bringing home a
cheeseburger that's as good as it got
yeah then you up the game by bringing
home the UN so do you have uh recipes
for how to prepare unicorn that would be
better even than the cheeseburger I'm
very anti the eating of unicorns of
course but on a note of some seriousness
you know one of my um you think I wasn't
serious about
that I was giving you the benefit of the
doubt which I I should never do
obviously uh but one of my friends was
saying recently that one of the hardest
things about you know quarantining is
that life is so scheduled and like we
don't have surprise anymore right the
sort of surprise of what someone's just
going to say in the middle of Home room
or you know something you see on the
street and I do wonder you know all
kidding aside whether we can both try to
make life a little more consistent and
benign but also like little little
positive surprises you know the next
time you order your online groceries
just throw something in that your kid is
just going to be like what you got me
that and like don't tell them about it
until it comes right I love surprise as
the alternative to uncertainty it's a
nice way to think about it and helpful
to me I think it is to a lot of people
too because when you say uncertainty you
usually picture adverse outcomes but
they're unknown outcomes some of which
may be bad some of which may be great
and some of which may just be strange
and I think right now we've all gotten
accustomed to strange and having a hard
time sorting out the good necessarily
from the bad because it's all new but
yeah I love the idea that as we come out
of lockdown one of the things to most
look forward to are as you said the
surprises that's what makes life
interesting yeah and maybe you could
plan some surprises I mean you can't
plan to surprise yourself but you could
plan to surprise some other people I
disagree with can't plan to surprise
yourself I do it all the time like how I
leave things that I know I will like in
places that I'm not likely to come
across them and then you um forget and
then you come across them and you think
like oh there's a little blueberry
muffin yeah because I've got a very bad
memory yes this depends on having no
memory let's say I'm I'm not in my car
that often maybe on average once a week
or twice a week cuz we live in New York
CU we don't use it that much but you
know sometimes I'll leave a candy bar in
the car just so that the next time like
oh look at that candy bar look at this
melted candy bar like I'm going to
scrape it off the seat yay you turn my
lovely surprise into a pile of melted
all right Stephen you go and surprise
yourself with little you know scavenger
hunt like candy bars and I'm going to go
and surprise other people cuz I'm you
know nicer than you
no stupid questions is part of the
Freakonomics radio network this episode
was produced by me Rebecca Lee Douglas
and I'm here with a quick fact check of
today's conversation Stephen was
uncertain about Queen Elizabeth's
handshaking habits in fact she does
shake hands but Royal etiquette dictates
that you must not touch the queen unless
she offers her hand First Lady Michelle
Obama famously breached this protocol
when she put her arm around the queen at
Buckingham Palace in 2009 in her Memoir
Obama wrote that in the moment she
didn't know that she was committing a
quote epic FAA but that the queen did
reciprocate the gesture and was likely
okay with this departure from protocol
my guess is that she would have been
less okay with stepen extending a rubber
hand or clanging symbols at her later on
in the episode Angela mentions that many
people think a third PB Burger is
smaller than a qu pound burger because
four is a larger number than three in
the 1980s the fast food chain A&W tried
to capitalize on the popularity of
McDonald's Quarter Pounder by
introducing a thir pound burger
Americans were not interested in the
sandwich even though it cost the same as
McDonald's Quarter Pounder and it
outperformed it in blind taste tests
focus groups revealed that this was
indeed because Americans thought the
thir PB Burger was smaller than the
quarter pounder finally Steven and
Angela discussed how increasing
secularity might have an effect on how
we think about uncertainty but is our
world really becoming more secular
religiously unaffiliated people have
grown in numbers in recent decades and
according to Pew research they now make
up about 16% of the global population
here in the United States people still
pray more than in any other wealthy
Nation but today American young adults
are nearly four times as likely as young
adults a generation ago to identify as
religious unaffiliated religious people
around the world are having more kids
but it's unclear what that means for the
future of secularity again the only
thing certain about our future is that
it's uncertain that's it for the fact
check no stupid questions is produced by
Freakonomics radio and Stitcher our
staff includes Allison craiglow Greg
rippen James Foster and Karen Wallis our
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Heads special thanks to David F and
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listen to our show ad free subscribe to
Stitcher premium to read about or hear
more no stupid questions visit freecomic
nsq thanks for listening so do I shake
your rubber hand or does my rubber hand
shake your rubber hand we each have a
rubber hand we each have a rubber hand
yeah yeah it's a it's a post lockdown
rubber hand handshake convention cuz we
like to shake hands apparently but it's
not good for us
so Stitcher