WTF with Marc Maron - Norm Mcdonald Interview

Hey gang, this episode of WTF is sponsored by stamps.com. Go to stamps.com and type in WTF when you click the radio microphone to start a no-risk trial and get a $110 bonus offer. That's stamps.com, enter WTF.

Do it up! Lock the G! Are we doing this? Really? Wait for it. Are we doing this? Wait for it. Howow! What the [ __ ]! And it's also what the [ __ ]! What's wrong with me? It's time for WTF, what the [ __ ] with Mark Mar.

All right, let's do this. How are you? What the [ __ ]? What the [ __ ] buddies? What the [ __ ] Nicks? What the [ __ ] nucks? What the [ __ ] a Ricans? What the [ __ ] of mollins? What the fuckes? What the [ __ ] a delic? What the [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ]! Yes! Oh [ __ ] [ __ ]! Yes! Godamn right! Oh, oh [ __ ] hell! I'm sorry. I just read this article about cussing and I just want to keep [ __ ] doing it because apparently it's not bad for me. I'll get to that in just a second.

I'd like to tell you right now at the beginning of the show, I am Mark Maron. This is WTF. I appreciate, uh, you listening to my show. And today, I'm very excited because I have Norm McDonald on the show. Now, I got to be honest with you, I've not spoken to Norm hardly at all in my life. I have a weird memory of Norm. Not weird, but it's what's odd to me is as I talk to people in my profession who I've kind of known for a long time, just by virtue of us being in the same profession, it's interesting where our paths meet and the memories that I have. I don't know why I'm talking like this. I apologize, but it's going to be very interesting because I definitely have, you know, a certain way that I think Norm is. I like Norm. I think he's funny, but I have an idea of who that guy is. So I'm, uh, I'm very excited to talk to him.

Now, I would like to say this. I want, I don't promote myself enough. I do promote things on this show, but I tend to forget that, uh, I have shows coming up. We actually have a live WTF coming up at the Steve Allen Theater here in Los Angeles, October 25th. Interesting show. Uh, I'm gonna have Josh Molina on. I'm G to have Jonah Ray on. I'm G to have [ __ ] VI Vance on. I'm G to have this guy Steve Maan, uh, who made a movie about getting cancer and, uh, trying to get on Letterman and [ __ ] Mojo Nixon. Mojo Nixon. I got in touch with Mojo Nixon. You know, someone suggested it. I thought, like, [ __ ] yes! I love Skid Mojo. Let's see what Mojo Nixon's up to. So he said he's going to come up. He said, bring a guitar. He'll make something up. That'll be good. Eddie Pepperone, Jim, of course, on that live show on the 25th. And for you Bay Area people or people who want to make the trip to the Bay Area, San Francisco Punchline, I will be appearing November 2nd through 5th. And then the big show in Seattle, very excited about this. It's, uh, really my first, uh, small theater show. Neptune Theater, Seattle, November 25th. Go get tickets for that. I'd love to see you up there.

So [ __ ] a right. Am I [ __ ] right? Don't get, don't get offended by the [ __ ] because I just read an article that psychologists, this isn't Scientific American, this isn't [ __ ] psychologists have found that wearing may serve an important function in relieving pain. Oh yeah. [ __ ] yes. Now, look, I, there, the article is all about, uh, it's based on these college students. They did a, a test where where the, they had these kids put their hands in ice cold water and they were able, one group said a, a sort of, uh, a kind of repetitive non-curse word, a neutral word. And then they let the other kid say, uh, a curse word like [ __ ] [ __ ] godamn, this is cold! Holy [ __ ]! And those that, that bunch, uh, reported less pain and actually were able to keep their hand in the water for 40 seconds longer. Now, the broader effects is that they think it's an emotional thing that that cursing is linked to the brain circuitry, but they've decided that it's primitive, like the evolutionary part, the fight or flight part. So this is some deep primal [ __ ] that when you say [ __ ] or what the [ __ ] or godamn it, you're tapping into that source that enables you, you to rise above pain for a second and move through whatever you need to move through. Now, it's not specific about what kind of pain. You don't have to be having your arm ripped off by an animal. Uh, you know, it could just be traffic. It could just be a, a slow and chronic, uh, depressive sort of ache from either a broken heart or a bad, uh, childhood. You could be in one perpetual primal [ __ ] your entire life. You just choose your moments. You know, you kind of operate at that kind of like F [ __ ] that's kind of going, that's humming along at the core of your being. And every once a while you punu it with a little [ __ ] and then like, bang, man, you get that relief. You get that transcendence from pain. How do you like that? Scientifically validated that getting a little more [ __ ] in your life will help you get through those tough moments and enable your fight or flight response and ease a little pain. I recommend it. As I always do on this show, I recommend the [ __ ]. Oh, that's out of the way. Let's do a little this. Poow! Oh yeah. Just [ __ ] my pants. [ __ ] and I said [ __ ] too. Like I am feeling so good because of the amount of, uh, [ __ ] I'm doing. And I, in terms of saying it. And there's enough going on in the other area of my life as well. But, but I, I just wanted to share that with you. Just coffee. Coop, do that up. I hope there's not a lot of kids listening to this. I apologize for the profanity, but I, it's helping me cope. That's how I'll rationalize it. I don't think you, maybe you should be teaching your kids how to cuss as opposed to telling them that they shouldn't. And maybe when they do it and, and they're reprimanded by strangers, you know, insinuating that you're a bad parent, have the kids say, look, I'm dealing with pain in a very primal way. I am honoring an evolutionary instinct that goes back to the beginning of mankind by shouting an exploitive to deal with this situation that you're causing me. You're causing me pain and anger. That's why it's happening. We got to change up.

All right, look, my cat Boomer apparently doesn't like me anymore. I don't know how it happened. It just all of a sudden, he's, uh, nervous around me and he's decided that he doesn't like me anymore. And that's going on with Leonda as well because Jessica's in the house and she's taking the love of my cats away from me. And I, I promised you, and I know you've been hanging with baited breath about my, uh, my visit to the urologist tomorrow. That I don't think about death a lot. I think about it in a general way. I think about it like if I'm laying in bed at night, I think like, okay, I'm alive. What if I didn't wake up? Would I know that I'm not awake forever? That that kind of thing. And it tweaks me out a little bit. But as I said last Thursday, you know, when you start talking about organs, I get a little, uh, tweaky. But, uh, you know, I think it's rooted in the fact that I'm afraid. And who isn't afraid? And when you go to a doctor, that's where it all gets real. So tomorrow, I'm going to the urologist and that's going to be the full-on, you know, you know that experience. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing to worry about. I just want to make sure everything's okay. I'm at that age now where I have to do that. And so now I'm paranoid and I'm nervous because I got to go to a doctor. So I'm seeing signs and symbols in everything. I'm seeing omens and and gifts everywhere I turn. And what happened was, I woke up the other day, my cats aren't loving me. Monkey's still okay. He's on my team. Monkey's on team Mark. But I look outside and I see a stray I've never seen before. It was, there was something wrong with this cat, man. There was something wrong with this cat. All right, you, I've seen [ __ ] up cats before. You know, and they all have their charm. And you do sympathize with them or you get angry at them or whatever you're going to do with a cat, whatever you project onto a cat. But this strange, weird, its tail was a little [ __ ] up. It was all black. And I just saw it eating out of the bowl. And I opened the door to get him away initially because I'd never seen it before. I wanted to see what I was dealing with. And the cat didn't respond. I sat there clapping my hands. The cat didn't respond. So now I've got a deaf, black cat eating out of this bowl who doesn't even know I'm there, making noises to scare him away. And then he looks up at me and his eyes are all crosseyed and off, and his face is a little twisted. It was like a David Lynchian cat. I had this moment where I sort of slipped into some weird waking dream state because of the creepiness of this deaf, crosseyed, black cat eating out of my cat's bowl. And I, for some reason, in that moment, said, what does this mean? This can't be good. This creepy cat was sent from the underworld to deliver a message. And I can't figure out what it is. And I got to go to the doctor tomorrow, damn it. Obviously, it has nothing to do with anything. But if something is up, up in me, I'm going to blame that [Applause] cat.

Hey folks, I don't want to interrupt, but I'm going to because I got a thing to do. Got a thing to talk about. Got an email here. Okay, subject line, maybe for stamps. Hey Mark Maron, your new sponsor stamps.com is freaking me out a little. My last name is Stamps. So hearing you plug the sponsor is like you're trying to get my attention constantly. Imagine someone saying, do you use Maron? Let me tell you about Maron. I'm sure you would love some Maron. Thanks, Michael. You can assume what his last name is. The reason I'm bringing that up is stamps.com is our sponsor today. And I've been using stamps.com. I'm not pulling your leg. It's incredibly easy. I still mail a lot of merchandise out of my house. And all you got to do, it takes you like five minutes. You just get it, go on to stamps.com and you can print US postage for any letter or package using your own computer and printer. You really don't even have to go to the post office anymore. If you organize yourself properly and you time yourself right, you can just give your mail guy or or gal a big bag of stuff that you've already stamped because you went to stamps.com. I know you're going to miss waiting online at the post office, but think about it this way, stamps.com never closes. Huh? How do you like that? Also, you can do international stuff. They have customs forms. They, they got like an entire post office right there and you don't even have to go to the post office. Right now, there's a special offer. If you use my promo code WTF, you get a no-risk trial plus a $110 bonus offer, which includes a digital scale and $55 of free postage. This is for a limited time, so don't wait. Go to stamps.com before you do anything else. Click on the radio microphone at the top of the homepage and type in WTF. That's stamps.com, enter WTF and make your own stamps. I mean, come on, have a little [Music] fun.

So, uh, Norm McDonald in the garage. Nervous? How the hell could you be nervous? I mean, do you always get nervous? Uh, I get somewhat nervous about, uh, things sometimes, sure, like everybody, right? But I mean, you've done so much. It doesn't go away. Uh, it hasn't with me. I, I mean, I don't get, uh, um, God, now I'm stumbling. And that's all right, man. You know, I, I, I'll open like this. I think I have a weird memory of you that you probably wouldn't remember. I think I was in, I think I was in your hotel room the, the, when you were watching, I showed up at your hotel room when you were just done your first Letterman with Caroline Ray. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think that I actually watched you not watch your first Letterman on television. Is that possible? I'm thinking, no, I, I, well, I would know. I would not watch it, that's for sure. Was like 1989? Is that about right? Yeah, I think I'm not probably about that. Yeah, that's funny because I, yeah, I know Caroline and I remember you, uh, and I remember Carol. All my memories are so vague, right? Well, it was weird because I, I barely knew Caroline and we were sort of hanging around, you know, with this, this group of comics. And I had a car and she goes, let's go to the hotel. My friend Norm just did Letterman tonight. So we go over there. And I, that was the first time I ever met you. And I don't know how much you even played the states because it was right. I didn't know any comedians from the states. That was my problem. Yeah, right. And so I go up to this room, I meet you, and you're about to go on Letterman. And, and I'm standing there with Caroline. And you were on your bed face down with your hands hiding your eyes for the entire time. Does that sound like a real thing? No, that would be me. I can't. Well, you know how it is when you know, uh, how bad you are. And, uh, you know what I mean? Did you? No, I mean, well, I know that's how we perceive ourselves. I don't know if it's really true. You did well, right? Well, we have, we can pro, we probably know more than another person, no, about ourselves. I don't know. No, but I mean, how can, like, are you not able to watch yourself now? No, it's pretty hard, like, you know, because, um, um, I, I really like comedy, like I love comedy, like I guess all comedians do or whatever, but, um, um, it's always, uh, you always think you're better than when you see yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the moment, it feels like you've, you've won. And then you watch it and you're like, oh, why am I doing that with my eyebrow? No, it's fu. It's like when you hear your [ __ ] voice on, especially me, cuz I don't think I sound weird, but then people come out me, go, hey, I can do an impression of you. And I [ __ ] guys, [ __ ] sounds like a [ __ ] he's like, go [ __ ] man, is that what I sound like? So, um, it's funny when you have a weird voice because, uh, a lot of times I don't give a [ __ ] why people laugh, you know, but I've always been very like material dependent in my standup. I gotta work like a [ __ ] to get laughs. But, uh, people go like, oh, you can just talk with your weird voice. I'm like, no, I can't. You just, maybe you think that [ __ ] but I remember when I do, like, cuz when I first came to LA and I do auditions and then I would have the best material of the 10 guys, I would get the most laughs, but I would never get hired. And then I realized why. It's cuz they want the [ __ ] that can, uh, uh, get laughs without material. I can't do that. That's what you need for a sitcom, right? If you're, if you're, you know, have a sitcom going and a guy has some good jokes, well, you can hire him as the writer. Yeah, you want, want the big [ __ ] guy, charismatic guy, yeah, with no material at all. That seems to have an emotional range. Exactly, exactly. When I did my first, uh, uh, comedy festival thing, that Montreal thing, what year was that, [ __ ]? I don't know, like '87. Yeah, I don't know dates. Yeah, but it was around there. And, uh, how long had you been doing comedy at that point? Six months. Oh, really? Yeah. But it was Canada, so we got a, so that was like in, in American years, that's four years. No, no, I'm saying because the Montreal Comedy Festival in Canada, we had a quota to fill, you know, I would never have gotten on it if I was in the States. But, uh, so I got my five minutes. Just that rote, though. That's the way I used to do comedy. I'd memorize every [ __ ] word. And so I had it all figured out. And [ __ ] right. And so then I go there, I meet Sinbad, right? So I didn't know who Sinbad was. And he goes, uh, and he's completely relaxed. I'm all thinking about one piece outfit. He did his hair matched his shirt. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, they were both orange. Yeah, yeah. So then he said, uh, he was just so relaxed. And he said, uh, hey, let's go. I got to get some socks. So we go to this [ __ ] store, right? When we first go into the store, there's no one there. It's a small store. So there's no one there. The lady's in the back. Yeah. So the lady takes a minute to come out. Yeah. And, and he's like, where's that lady? You know, there's nobody here, you know? And I'm like, yeah. And so he comes out, he gets his [ __ ] socks. Nothing happens, right? So then that night at the gala, I do my carefully constructed material. Yeah. Sinbad comes out. He goes, what the [ __ ] is going? He doesn't swear. He goes, what's going on with these stores with socks? I'm like, holy [ __ ]! And then he's like, you go in the store and, uh, they don't, there's no one there. And then people are agreeing with him. I'm like, what? It didn't make any, none of it made any sense except that he destroyed. And I didn't. Uh, that's when I realized that, uh, that I was missing a whole bunch of stuff. Cuz I guess at first, you think you're good and stuff like that. No, you are good. But, and I think that the fact is really, if, if you were to look at it in another way, that if people are able to do an impersonation of you, that means you have a defined style. Whereas like, I guarantee you, there's not a lot of people that can do Sinbad. Though you did just do a pretty good one. I was trying to do it as unraced as possible, but, uh, but no, I think like, uh, I don't know that much stuff, but I know I think that with standups, a lot of people, um, uh, it's hard for a person that creates material. Yeah, is usually a kind of a sensitive, shy kind of person, at least in my experience that I've known. Yeah, your experience with yourself. Yeah, I was all this crazy shy stuff like that. Um, so, um, and also very self-conscious looking like an idiot. So I couldn't go on stage and run around and dance. So when I see guys that can do it, like when I see John C, like this brilliant mind, and then he can do, yeah, that's amazing. And also, of course, Prior, you know, yeah. I'm, I'm the same. It's so weird cuz I'm the exact same way. And I have not, I don't think I've talked to anybody on this show that has that same thing where I am envious of a lot of comics that people would dismiss. You know, only because it's sort of like, well, how do they not feel like they be afraid of they're going to look like a dick? Like, as soon as I've ever done anything physical, if I even think about it for a second, I'm like, I'm an [ __ ] and, and they don't laugh. I know, yeah. Like just recently, I was on Fallon and somehow did an impulse. I saw you, the D cook. It was very funny. Never done that. It just, it came out of nowhere. I didn't second guess it and it [ __ ] worked. But if I would have said, like, for the five minutes I was sitting there, like, I'm going to do this D cook thing. Maybe it's because you were embodying Dane Cook, right? In that, in, yeah, that I actually had the confidence of Dane Cook. Yeah, right, right. Maybe that's why, right? Yeah. But yeah, I was always, uh, uh, astonished by. And I'm also like you. I'm envious of, uh, people that, because I'm, you, I used to be frozen on stage where I, I still don't take the mic out of the stand. When you did, so you did comedy six months and you were at the Montreal. What is that? The Canadian scene is so different because I talked to Russell Peters recently. And there's this weird work ethic that if you're one of the guys up there, you're going to work. And you're going to work for one guy, but you're going to work. Yeah. It was a great place to start because, uh, first of all, there's no industry in Canada. There's no movies or television. Isn't there a little? And doesn't, if you, I think there might be now, but when I was doing it, there was none. Cuz it seems like if you stay there long enough and you don't leave, that you will be given a television show of some kind for a certain amount of time. It's a, they're awful. You know, Canadian, everything about Can, Canada sucks. Really? Ter, well, in terms of entertainment, yeah. Like all the entertainers leave. And most of them don't want to go. Most of them are mad because they, because they weren't recognized in Canada, you know, they had to come to the States. But, uh, um, but so we didn't, anyways, we didn't have a movies or TV to do. Yeah. And so we just did standup. And we thought that's all there was, was just going, which was fun, like just being standups and going around the country doing standup. And then, uh, when I got to LA, I suddenly I was like, holy [ __ ] is everybody's handsome. Like I didn't, because we weren't handsome. We were just, well, comics weren't supposed to be handsome. Louis C.K. once said that to me, like furious at some point when I think when J. Moore first started doing comedy, like right when J. Moore showed up on the scene. And this is not meant to piss off J. Moore in any way. You know, Louie was aggravated because he's like, it's, it wasn't for that, he's good-looking. You know, I just want to do Letterman before I'm fat and bald. No, it is very true. Handsome. I used to really have problems with handsome people, like friends, you know, would bother me so much. I watch Friends and then I saw, I said, [ __ ] these are the funniest, super handsome people ever. I'll give that to them. You know what I mean? Who were your guys? It's probably harder if you're so [ __ ] handsome. Well, yeah, because people expect you to have your [ __ ] together. So I think that's the hardest sell for handsome people. It's like, my life is [ __ ] up. It's like, look at you, how is that possible? You [ __ ] really, is your wife bad? You've got all your hair. [ __ ] hard to be a sympathetic character when you're really attractive. Yes, it is. Yeah. When you started out, though, who are your guys? Like, who are the guys you hung out with? Are they still around? You still keep in touch with them? Uh, in Canada, they're like, uh, um, the guys that were big, you know, most people, Canada's like, it's the same with every [ __ ] goddamn city I go to. Everybody's like, this is the [ __ ] best comedy city and all that horseshit. And I remember I'd be on the road and wherever the [ __ ] you were, you know, you'd be in Dallas or something, go, oh man, these are the funniest guys ever. And there's, there was always the one mythic guy. Yeah, yeah. Go [ __ ] Kenny, that guy, the funniest guy ever. But he's a heroin addict. If he wakes up, he's hilarious. And then he would shamble in on Saturday night, say something about AIDS or something. You go, what the [ __ ]? He doesn't seem that funny. I guess he's funny if you know him. Oh, that's hilarious. The local hero that could never get out. Exactly. And then like, you know, when whenever they're past that prime of whatever made them popular in that small scene, then they finally go, I think I'm going to do it. I'm going to go to LA. And these broken men, like, no, he used to be the guy. He wasn't really the guy. I met D, uh, Rodney Dangerfield. Cuz I, do you remember the book? I think it was The Last Laugh or something about Lenny. Yeah, there was a secondary. I wish I could remember his name. Joe something. There was a, there was a character. Yeah, yeah. Wait, wait. [ __ ] uh, Ancis. Joe Ancis. Yeah. So I'm, I know I read that book. It was like the Bible. The Lenny Bruce biography by Albert Goldman. Gold. And so Ancis was the funny guy, right? That never went on stage. That's right. The brilliant funny guy, right? And they all, you know, I, but, and I met him with Dangerfield. You did. Dangerfield came and did Saturday Night Live. And, uh, Joe Ancis was with him. I was like, [ __ ] Joe Ancis. And then I waited about two hours for him to say anything funny. And I was like, I don't know. Maybe just [ __ ] got drugs for them or something. Or maybe it just took longer back then, you know? Maybe it wasn't so about laugh efficiency. Well, yeah, and maybe also he was stuck in that time. Maybe Lenny Bruce, like, if he were right here now, would not be very funny. But, you know, I think that book, I think Goldman probably exploited that because, like, in my mind, behind every genius, there's some dude going, that [ __ ] stole my [ __ ]! Yes! You know, and usually there's a reason. Well, well, then why didn't you get on stage? It's like, I don't do that. I shut up. And also, the authors don't know [ __ ] yeah. Like, you know, every time they do a [ __ ] article, they come to you. I'm sure they've done articles on you. And then you, you try to tell them, like, what's the real story. And they still [ __ ] write what they want. Like what they had already seen it. They take it out of context. They frame it the way they want it. Have you had a lot of experience with that? A little bit, like, uh, people. There was a time when I was on Saturday Night Live, everyone hated it. You know, when you were doing an update? Yeah. They hated Far, they hated Sandler and Farley. You mean critics? Critics? Yeah. So, it was pretty, everybody was, oh, it's dead, SNL's dead, and all that [ __ ] and so, they came and the guy had an agenda, obviously. And, um, but he was very unfair. Like Sandler was very, very funny. And nobody's funny was funnier than Farley. And then he presented as if these, we're always doing stick, and everyone was looking away embarrassed and everything like that. And I remember him laughing. So he, it was very frustrating. [ __ ] And they made Farley, I never forget, it was on cover of New York Time, New York Magazine. And they had Farley do a photo shoot where he had a television on his head. Yeah. And it was, it was kind of funny, but Farley's doing a big, like crazy physical thing with this big TV on his head. And then they put it on the cover and they said, it's comedy, comedy dead. And how did he respond to that? He wanted to go beat up the guy. And Lauren told Lauren that. Oh, really? You can't, you can't beat up people. He can't beat up the, the, the reporter. Yeah, yeah. But he was really that angry. He, yeah, he was so, he was more angry because they, not for him, but because they attacked Sandler, actually. He was very protective. Well, that, that whole crew, you were, you were part of that crew that they seem tighter than most SNL crews. Like Farley, Sandler, Spade, you, like, you guys seem like a real kind of, you know, rat pack of comedic. Well, we were pretty tight because we, except for Farley, we were all standups. So we kind of, we didn't know how the [ __ ] to act or anything. And like, before us was Chris, there too? Or no, Chris Rock? Or Rock? Oh, Rock was there too. Yeah. So you're, you're all sitting around going, I don't know how to do a character. Yeah, we didn't know anything. So all we knew is how to directly talk into the camera, you know, I mean, that's the only good thing we were good at. And, but, uh, the rest of it was, was real tough. And so I wouldn't, you know, I would plead with people not to put me in sketches, you know, cuz sometimes I would think of a good idea and write the sketch and knew I could do it, but, but, uh, I was so, but, but anyways, the point is, like, before us, there was this great cast. And even now, there's this great cast of actors, right? Which probably should be what Saturn Life is, not stand up. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I think all acting should probably preclude standups for the most part. But now, you know, this, so they're, they know how to talk to each other like that. Me and Spade and [ __ ] what we didn't, I just can't remember. I can't imagine the, the cynicism approaching a sketch. Exactly. With you guys. No, that's what we'd mostly do is we'd spend the first half of the night writing the sketch and the second half of the night crumpling it up, saying, I should have was because this is another thing that I noticed coming from standup into, cuz I was, um, never had any desire to be anything other than a standup. Everything else just accidentally happened from the standup, you know, but some, for some reason, in Hollywood, they go, oh, guy, I guess because of Bill Cosby or Roseanne Barr or some people who have had success in standup, they go, well, he can, he can do, they'll build a show around him, he can do anything. Which is not an experiment. Give some children, throw them in a living room. Not an experiment that's worked well. Was that part of Lauren's thing? Wasn't that the season where he's like, let's, you know, let's use stand-ups? You know, it's sort of like that scene in The Right Stuff where he's like, you know, I want test pilots. You know, I want stand-up comedians. And, uh, did, what was the struggle like? How often did you deal with Lauren around that stuff? Well, the great thing about Lauren is he'd do, you, you could do anything you wanted. He would tell you, uh, wise things like wisdom or whatever. He's like a little Buddha guy, right? Did it ever, did it ever make sense or not? To me, you'd always walk away going, what the [ __ ]? To other people, that did, like, I remember one time he wanted me, like, this is actually, uh, with, was Weekend Update. They wanted me to do Weekend Update, um, with a lady, yeah, like a two of us. And I was like, that sounds like [ __ ] I don't want to [ __ ] that sounds like [ __ ] like I'm like, if there's a lady and a dude, like, what are we making fun of? Local news? What the [ __ ] is that? He's like, no, no. He's like, uh, you'll be, he had something crazy. He goes, like, I think he liked me because I didn't understand what he was talking about. All and he goes, like, uh, he goes, you'll be a Fred Astaire and she'll be Ginger. You'll like, you know, give her the sex comedy and she'll give you the sex. And I was like, the dancers? What? I didn't know what he was [ __ ] talking about. So anyways, I go, I don't want to [ __ ] do it with the lady. Left Frank can do it. You, yeah. So, uh, Franken was going to do it. Yeah. Was, was Franken me or somebody else? So, uh, I didn't care that much about it. So, because I could just do stand up. But anyways, what happened was was funny. Like Steve Martin walked in because he was hosting. Yeah. And Lauren, to embarrass me, went, let's see what Steve thinks about. And Steve Martin doesn't give a [ __ ] about anything. So, but he goes, Norm wants to with the lady, but he thinks. And he does this big long spiel. And Steve Martin's completely uninterested, been dragged into something, wanted no part of. But luckily, he [ __ ] just said out of the blue, he goes, he goes, oh [ __ ] he goes, I did this award show with some broad and, uh, they paired me up with her and she [ __ ] everything up. Like, I guess they stuck them. So then Lauren goes, oh, there's some support from an unexpected place. And that's how you got the solo update. Yeah. Steve Martin, because he was such a hero to Lauren, had a bad experience with with an award show and you get to run the solo on the update. Yeah, it was awesome. That's a [ __ ] good moment. But I would have been in big trouble with a lady. But then later, he did it. They did it with a lady and a dude. Cuz he kept saying, oh, remember, cuz I know Saturday Live, you know, like all of us, right? And he was like, remember, remember Jane and Jane and Dan. And I was like, that was [ __ ] like, I remember Jane, you ignorant [ __ ] right? But I also remember all the rest of the [ __ ] [ __ ] like he had a hat on and pretended to be from the, like they played characters. Yeah. And I, I was not interested in that. Because Dennis kind of changed it to Dennis Miller, where where you do jokes, where you do jokes and you don't, you're not doing a parody of a [ __ ]. Now, what was the reaction to you when you first took update? Cuz I remember and it was, you definitely made it your own because you're one of those guys, as you're sort of establishing here, that you can only do what you do. Yeah. I can't do. Well, I can't. Yeah. The big problem, I guess, with me with update is I'm not politically aware of at all. So I was like, well, I can't, uh, be political, right? You know, I can't, I don't know how to do it. But it was interesting though, because your update and the way you do comedy there, it rides that line of like, you're, you're almost like the, the thing that makes it so cutting and shocking is it's so [ __ ] plainly said that this is what [ __ ] is. No, but it's a good thing. Well, it was my plan. I mean, to cut through the [ __ ]. I thought because I don't like cleverness that much. Like I always was, um, again, what's an example of that? Like sexual innuendo rather than sexual, like, you know what I mean? I don't like that my mother can giggle at some joke on Will & Grace and then I can say, no, no, you know what that means, right? You're talking about [ __ ] her [ __ ] the other guy in the ass. And then she's like, oh, no. I'm like, it's the same [ __ ] thing. Why can't you just [ __ ] why can't they just say he's going to [ __ ] him in the ass? And you get the same. Is it something cowardly about like cloaking it or something? Like I don't know, psychological [ __ ] but it must be some level of, uh, dissociating yourself slightly from what you actually mean from the truth. Like, like innuendo protects you from seeing the reality and enables you to laugh at it. Yeah, yeah. But why need good guy in these days? Why would you need innuendo? Like, yeah, no. To me, I'm shocked that anyone thinks you could be shocked by anything. Yeah. I, I find that now, the only thing that's shocking is when someone tells the [ __ ] truth. Then people are like, what just happened? That guy can't come back. Like on update, I was always saying, I think I was thought I said the perfect joke would be if the punchline and the, um, and the setup were almost identical. Yeah. And then we, I was saying, could we ever get a joke like that? That would be the coolest. And then we actually did get one joke that was pretty close to that, not perfect, but it was, uh, L. Lovett and, um, L. Lovett and Julie Roberts are getting a divorce. And, uh, uh, you know, people close to the couple say the reason is because, uh, he's L. Lovett and she's Julie Roberts. So it was pretty close. You, the setup and the punchline were pretty close to each other. I was happy with that one. That was the grail. Yeah, that was the grail. I don't know if we've completely got it. But when that, that YouTube thing that was going around, I think it was, were you at a, what, where was that where you did the, the old jokes at the roast? Oh, yeah, that was a roast. Yeah, yeah. What, what was the, what was your agenda behind that? Um, I mean, what were you thinking? Cuz it like got very popular and everyone thought it was so [ __ ] you know, it was like they put a little like genius. They put it wasn't genius. No, no, it wasn't that. It wasn't genius. But I just want to know why you did it. Well, the re, re, real reason it was because it was a, a roast for Bob Saget, right? Who's a friend of mine. And I don't, I guess I don't like roasts. Yeah. Uh, but, um, um, I mean, I shouldn't say that. I guess I admire. I, I don't really admire. It's a certain style. A certain style I've come to accept. Yeah. But, uh, but Saget said, can you come and roast me? And Saget's like a really nice guy. And I said, [ __ ] I don't know, man. He, come on. I don't know why he kept pushing it. Yeah. So I'm like, it was a night before. And so this guy, Sandy Gallin, who was the producer of these roasts and stuff. Yeah. Or Joel Gallin. Yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know his name. I only did one and that was all I could, could take it. Yeah. That's tough. And so he said, I said, I don't know how to do this stuff. He goes, just be shocking. And so luckily, when he said shocking, I thought, oh, well, if I do the opposite, you know, it's, I've heard people go, I got it. I go, what the [ __ ] is to get? Yeah. Like it's a grade three arithmetic. It's not a simp. It's not a. So your cho, your choice was just to be like, I'm going to do these old beautiful jokes. Yes. Interact all, all the [ __ ] of the roast. There was jokes that my dad had when I was a kid. My dad, uh, when I was starting comedy, he gave me a book. It was very touching. He gave me a book of that he had of, uh, jokes you say to people at their retirement parties. Oh, really? To help me with my standup. So it was very touching. It was close to like one of those 101 jokes kind of thing. Yeah. So, so that's where I got the jokes. And a lot of them were like, so antiquated. Like they were like, there was one where I said to Gil God for, like, you're, you remind me of a typewriter because your head is Underwood, your neck is Underwood, or something. It just so silly. And they were all hilar, everyone was laughing their ass off. No, they weren't. When, like, when you're standing up there, yeah, first of all, you can't, you know how when you're on stage, you can't see the whole audience. You can just see those. Well, where did you do it? Cuz when I did it, there must have been 2,000 [ __ ] people in this Hilton ballroom. It was horrendous. Yeah, it takes forever. Yeah, but because of the, you know, I could, all I could see was the angry eyes of Alan Thicke at the first table, just like being angry. It was kind of shocking to me because I was like, it, what, you know, what was weird about that is that people [ __ ] thought I was literally thought I was crazy. I like, I was like, I understand, uh, if you didn't like it, I might not even like it. I don't know if I would even like it, kind of [ __ ] you know, I could go, that's self-indulging [ __ ] but to to actually [ __ ] think I'm like serious, you know? Yeah. I mean, God, like, well, they, people love to do that. I mean, did you watch the Charlie Sheen one? Yes. Yes. I tell you what, I, sorry. Well, what do you like? I mean, what, because like, a lot of people are saying that that was just, it, there's no line whatsoever. And that, you know, it is something other than just being funny. And that it's gotten, you know, kind of just brutal and painful to watch. Right. Well, yeah, like, because, you know, when we get interviewed as comics, like people always go like, is there any line? And we go, no, but there's lines. Of course, there's [ __ ] lines. You know, you're a human being. But I remember they were talking about William Shatner. Roast already told me this, that William P.'s [ __ ] wife had just drowned in a pool three months earlier. And they had to get all the comments together and go, look, no jokes about his wife drowning. And they were all like, ah, [ __ ] yeah, what are we going to do now? And I was like, what, it even occur to you to [ __ ] do that? Job guy's still wearing a black ribbon and his clothing is torn. I love Patrice on that, though. I, because I love Patrice. Yeah, he's great. And he did it. I never saw a guy that did the roast so good. He, because he didn't do all that, um, well, I mean, that line is interesting because it's really a personal line. I, I mean, when you're a comic, you know, when you've crossed the line. I mean, I mean, that's really the line is like, what can you, what can you get away with? Well, I guess the line's up to you as to whether you want to. I, when I was on, uh, SNL, you start to read, uh, an update, you start to read, um, newspaper articles and forget that they're people, you know, right? And I had a hellish thing with this, uh, private citizen. I never did a joke again about a private citizen after that. But someone had, um, uh, been hit on the Brooklyn Bridge. And the story was funny because their liver was over here and then their spinal column was over here. It was all spread across the bridge, right? What was the joke? The joke was, uh, he's recuperating in the hospital and he's fine, you know. But it was so absurd because he'd been spread by. Anyways, then I get a phone call. And I go, oh [ __ ] that was a real person's friend or father. Yeah, just phoned me. And I'm like, I, you know, they [ __ ] they're [ __ ] and husband got torn apart on the Brooklyn Bridge. And then they turn on the TV. I'm like, hey, yeah, hey, what's going on? They turn on the TV to get to get their mind off of things. I know. So, so you.

Know you, you understand after a while. And even with politicians, like, they're still human beings. Yeah, barely. But yeah, they're, they're the worst kind of [ __ ] people in the world, all of them. Uh, the, well, well, that's, I'm glad to hear you say that because, uh, everybody thinks you're all leftist.

Well, I mean, you know, I, I definitely land on the lefty side of things on, you know, ideological terms. But I found that from doing political talk radio, just, you know, being, you know, carrying water for any of them, you just got to realize the quality of people you're dealing with. You're dealing with [ __ ] corporate horrors who are operated by business interests. So, you know, really, it's going to come down to, you know, however you view politics, the question is, do you give a [ __ ] about poor people? And, uh, and, and are we being taken advantage of right now? If people want to frame that as, you know, "Obama's a communist and draining us of our livelihood," well, that's your particular delusion, and that's fine. I mean, but, but it, I just got disillusioned with all of it because they're, these are not quality people.

I mean, I did a joke about, uh, Michelle Bachmann on, on *Real Time*. I, that, yeah, and I was getting flack from this, you know, you know, a very small portion of the right, you know, that they were like, "He's got, he's a misogynist." I'm like, "She's a [ __ ] pig. She's a [ __ ] politician." How do you, can you name me two politicians that command any respect whatsoever? Why do we respect these people? These people are car salesmen. They're idiots. They're, they're, they're more disingenuous than anybody. As performers, and they basically figured out a way to bait and plate morons into, you know, voting against their, their self-interest. That's an amazing skill. But is it respectable? I don't know. Do you respect a guy that sells you, you know, horseshit and the guy's a health supplement?

I agree with you. I, I mean, I think politicians are more, are, are, are terrible. I, I have much, I mean, people, uh, attack evangelists, and, but at least evangelists offer something, right? Well, they, they, they offer the immediate relief of someone's, uh, you know, pain and aggravation with another line of [ __ ]. But, but nonetheless, I mean, they're pretty evil too.

Well, I mean, you know, with politics, it's like, yeah, I, I, I don't like to get into it that much anymore. Yeah, let's not get into this [ __ ] man. Okay, buddy. 'Cause it's get, I can see people not laughing now. No, I mean, but, you know, laughter. But, you know, I, I know that you've gotten into a little bit of flack around it. But you, you're around, what, around politics? Uh, what do you mean? Well, just that, you know, you've said things that people have reacted to. But you're, you're not like a political comic. I'm not political. I, I, I've said, I've only said things that on purpose to provoke people, right? Once in a while. A, you like doing that, though? Once in a while. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, I've never, uh, but I, but I've never, um, because I don't know enough, and because I, and because I don't respect, uh, political humor when it's nothing but gossip. Yeah. And mostly comics and people like us, you know, people who are obviously First Amendment warriors to a certain degree. We like living the way we want to live. So it's really just going to come down to to money. It's like, you know, how do I keep my money? I mean, that's the biggest political question that most righties ask themselves. It's like, "I'd like to keep as much of my money as possible." And if that's a, if that's a minority opinion, how do we get this majority of poor people to get me to keep my money and believe that they're doing the right thing? Yeah. It's a tough [ __ ] thing because if every, apparently I read this, if all the money in the world was equally divided among everybody, everybody would be dead [ __ ] poor. Yeah.

You know, there's like, there's these moments where, like, I, I don't talk about as much as I used to. But then there's like, there's moments where you're like, there's a moment that I could, I was on a [ __ ] radio show the other day, and this was an interesting thing because it's, it's about professionalism. You know, I don't, you know, I don't do political talk radio. You know, I've got my political views and, uh, and, and they're fairly general. You know, I'm not trying to support, you know, any politician, but, you know, I have the, the way I think about things. But there are politicians that represent the opposite of the what I think. So I'm on this talk show with a guy. It's a Fox affiliate, but, you know, I'm there to plug my comedy and talk about my podcast and be funny with this dude who's a talk show host. He's a radio professional. He runs an entertainment show for the most part. But he's been dying to talk to Rand Paul about the bridge situation because I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. He's the [ __ ] senator. They got bridges falling down, and he's been trying to get this guy on the show. And the guy just, he calls in when I'm there. You know, so like, now I've got, like, if I was doing political talk radio, I mean, it would have been like, you know, "What the [ __ ] are you thinking? You and your libertarian [ __ ] and how are we going to pay for this?" Like, I would have jumped in and done that. But there was this moment where it's like, I just done a segment with this radio professional. He was like, "God, it's great to talk to a guy who knows how to be on radio. We're having a good time." "Hold on, the senator's on the phone. I got to sit there and go, 'Oh, do I do this? Would it be worth it to sabotage this for some lefty, uh, uh, you know, credibility?'" And then I realized, like, "Dude, you know, he's a radio guy. You're a comedian. You're having a good conversation. He's trying to talk to this guy about a local problem. Just shut the [ __ ] up and and and let him do his job." And then when you come back, you know, get back to what you were talking about. And I chose to do that. But I, but I did walk out saying like, "You [ __ ] right, F you had such an opportunity there."

You know, I was on *Politically Incorrect* a couple of times. And, [ __ ] man, you know, you have to have an opinion about every goddamn thing on that show. So, or you can just do a little homework and write some jokes. Yeah. But sometimes, I remember at the break, like, Scott Carter going, "Enough with the jokes." But, uh, I'll never forget, like, we, [ __ ], but I'm very unlearned. And so before the show, uh, Scott came in, was the, the producer. Yeah. He's been on the show. Yeah. So he said, "What do you think about China and Taiwan?" And seriously, I, I only, I only know those words. You know, so I was like, "I don't know anything. Like, can I have another subject?" So anyways, then we get out, because he goes, because, because Bill believes this, anyways, when we get out, the [ __ ], we're introducing the guy beside me, the smart guy, right? He wrote a book on China and Taiwan, right? So [ __ ] Bill Maher, he starts with me. He goes, like, "What was China and Taiwan?" I, I go, "I don't know. I'm [ __ ] ask this guy. What do I, I'm a nightclub comic. What?" Like, that's what made me laugh at that show. Everyone's opinions equal, right? You know, like a, a nightclub comic and an expert. Or, and then another thing I find, I, I found funny about that show is the comedians try to be very serious, and then the serious guys are trying to get jokes. So it's like, yeah, it's not, it's not always our, our shin. I do, I do like Bill, though. No, Bill's great at what he does. Like, uh, he's, he's a, he started out a straight-up joke dude, and he knows his [ __ ], you know, and it's, uh, it's pretty amazing. You know, what's funny about him? I don't know if I should say this or not, but Ian, he's probably aware of it. When he does his mon, you notice when he does his monologue, he does Johnny Carson. No. Yeah. Oh, no, definitely. He definitely models himself, I think, and I think he's, that's been in style for a long time. He definitely takes the posture. But I find it very funny because, you know, he's got the posture and the timing and everything, like, and then she came in his face, you know, but crazy words come out. Carson would have loved to have done that. He probably would have.

So when you grew up, I mean, what, what was the, what, what was the story in, in terms? You say your dad gave you a joke book, but were you guys, you got along with your folks and everything? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was very young, I was very, very, very shy and very afraid of everything. I mean, people say they're shy when they're kids, but I was like, it was a pathology. Aren't you still afraid of everything? I am. I mean, I, I try to hide it and deal with it, but on a day-to-day basis, I, I get, no, I'm not afraid of everything. I'm afraid of very few things. Like what? Illness, death. Yeah. How'd you get, how'd you get peace of mind out of the other [ __ ]?

Well, when I was, um, when I was very, this is a weird thing that happened to me when I was young. Yeah. I don't know if this means anything. I remember it, but it was a moment I had that was, uh, wasn't religious or epanic or anything, but it transformed me to some degree. Is that I was always [ __ ] so afraid of everything. And if I went to a store, I'd have to walk around forever before I could even face a a person in the store to buy a pack of gum. I don't know why the [ __ ] I was like this. Yeah. But anyways, when I was nine, um, there was a, we lived in rural Ontario, and there was a blind friend of my dad's. Yeah. That I had to, he said, "Take him to the store." I was like, "What the [ __ ]? Like, I have to take this blind [ __ ] and I'm already shy and [ __ ]?" So I'm taking him to the store, and then the [ __ ] wants me to explain everything, describe everything to him. Yeah. So I'm like, "There's some grass over here, and now there's a lamp post." And this guy's all happy. "What about the lamp post?" "It's just a lamp post." Yeah. So it goes on and on. But something happened to me during it. Sounds bizarre, but something happened to me where I was actually, instead of always looking inward, which I think I'd always done before, that one time I was looking outward. Anyways, uh, while I was talking to him, I suddenly had a sort of a hysteria, like I was laughing. I started laughing and stuff. And, um, I don't even know why I'm remembering this, but I started laughing about everything, and everything seemed like, um, very, very funny to me. And then a couple weeks later, I saw a homeless guy, and he was talking about, he, he was talking, he started talking to me. Yeah. And he was talking to me about John D. Rockefeller. He's like, "I was at John D. Rockefeller's funeral." Yeah. And all this [ __ ]. And I was laughing at him and [ __ ]. Then he started laughing, and I was like, "It's all [ __ ] crazy [ __ ]!" Like, something came to me, yeah, where I, I started. And, uh, so now I find everything funny except, like, [ __ ] real serious. Like, I have no fear of going on stage, but death and [ __ ] and so, but the other thing I, but the problem with laughing is, I, I will get, uh, it will build to a hysteria sometimes that I have to, uh, crank a couple of benzos to, uh, prevent a panic attack. Really? Yeah. You can laugh yourself into an anxiety attack? Absolutely. Yeah. I start laughing, and that gets out of control, like hysterical. It's, um, and I still have extreme sensitivity to, um, to things like, I can, uh, not, not to normal, not to life things, but to, like, um, literature or art or something like that. I have incredible sensitivity. I kind of have to stay away from it. Like what's an example? Like a painting or a, yeah. [ __ ] paintings. Like, I don't know anything about art. Nothing at all, really. But I have had [ __ ] experiences that have, uh, been so hard on me. Like, one time I was in New York, and I, somebody dragged me to a [ __ ] art museum, which I hate art. Yeah. And I was looking at this picture of this girl, and I was like, "Falling in love with her. She's so [ __ ] beautiful." This [ __ ] girl in this [ __ ] picture. Yeah. And then a guide was telling me the [ __ ] thing was written, you know, drawn in the 16th century. Obviously, this lady was dead, long dead. And here I am, [ __ ] in love with her. Yeah. And so I'm like, "Ah, [ __ ] it." It was like, so hard on me for so many days. So I try not to. It sounds crazy, right? But I can be very, uh, It sounds like that's a very good painting. It was incredible pain. But like, I, you know, I, uh, it would make me cry. I didn't cry at my dad's funeral, though. Like, real life stuff seems so practical to me that it never really touches me much.

So you have a, a sensitivity towards, well, I mean, that's what art's supposed to do on some level, I guess. For people that can't access, uh, feelings or something, it gets me. Well, yeah, I mean, I get that with, uh, I can get that with television commercials sometimes if I'm not protecting myself. Oh, you mean like where they really can manipulate? Yeah. Well, you jerk me around. But like, I remember there was, I can be manipulated without, and know I'm being manipulated. Yeah. Like some movies, I'll just let it go. But like, you know, if my girlfriend's afraid of something or needs some help, I'm like, "I don't know what to." This is crazy. I mean, maybe you should call a friend. I can't. Maybe it's because we're, we're living fantasy lives or something. I guess I remember a kid when I was in, uh, grade school, we read *Old Yeller*, and the dog gets, then they got to put the dog down, right? That's a [ __ ]. Yeah. And this kid, Jeff, was just like, you know, sobbing uncontrollably as he read out loud, and they had to take him to the nurse because he couldn't pull it together. Oh my God. So that's, they call it Stendhal syndrome. Is it? Oh, so there's a name for it. Well, there was apparently there was this guy, I guess, Stendhal or something, some 16th-century guy, but he had an art museum that was so beautiful. I don't know if it's anecdotal, but, uh, he, an art museum where people would come in and have nervous breakdowns from the beauty of the art. But that can go either way with you. It can be laughter or sadness. Yes. It's mostly laughter. The sadness doesn't throw me into anxiety. Uh, the laughter, what's the feeling though? Like, like at a joke, or you're with friends or something, and you just can't, you can't get it out of your head how funny it is, and then you, you get anxious because you can't stop laughing. Yeah. I guess it's that. Like, I laugh a lot. Like, that's [ __ ] great as a comic. Yeah. I've never, I tell you, I've never trusted people that don't laugh. Like, I've worked on shows and, you know, [ __ ] sitcoms and stuff like that where the [ __ ] doesn't laugh. Yeah. He's the head writer. Yeah. I'm like, "You're not laughing?" Nothing. And I don't know. It's all math to him. Yeah. It's math. It's like, ha, coup, or some [ __ ]. And like the, but the best guys, that are the guys that are able to laugh and [ __ ], you know.

So, with the, so when you grew up, what did your folks do? Uh, well, my dad, we were like real poor and stuff. Uh, but later my dad became like a teacher, so we had a little bit of money. We lived like on a rural, like with animals, farm. It was a dead farm. Yeah. It was my father's father's farm. But by this point, I'd become dead. But it was interesting because everyone was old where I lived, except me and my brothers. So I, I was with old men all the time. Yeah. But I like them a lot. Yeah. I really like them. Do you still like old people? Love them. I love super old people because, uh, it's like, it helps you with perspective, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's a [ __ ] thing. There's a thing like, I love country songs and [ __ ], but there's a, this myth about the old guy that never forgot about the girl and he's drinking and [ __ ]. That's not true. Like, when you meet old people, you know what I mean? You go, "Hey, heartbroken." They go, "H, what?" You know, they don't care. I don't even remember. Yeah. It's all like comedy to them. They go, "Yeah, there was I [ __ ] this morning. Everything's good." Exactly, right? They have incredible perspective. And then I was so, I was thinking, if you can only get that perspective instantly, just pretend you're a [ __ ] old man and, and, uh, and, uh, forget it instantly.

Well, it's so funny that so many young people dismiss old people as as burdens or like, you know, no one dies in the house anymore. Everybody's put out to pasture somewhere. And, uh, like I have to fight sometimes when I see really old people. I, my immediately, I get this visceral kind of like, "Oh God, are they okay? Oh, oh, that they might die. That they might die." Or that, like, you know, like I'm going to be that. Like, if I'm lucky, I get to be the guy that might make it across the street. You know, that's a big payoff. And like, it [ __ ] throws my mortality in my in my head. In understand. Yeah. I don't like what I mean, I'm not saying I like infirm people or being at deathbeds. No. Right. No, no. I know what you mean. But like, if you, like, when you talk to old people that, uh, they've lived through things, they have a perspective and a wisdom from actually living life. And, uh, like, you learn a lot from an old. Or phobic where, like, I remember, uh, uh, what's his name? Rodney Dangerfield said a great thing to me that I, I mean, he was, he came to do *Saturday Night Live*. Remind me to show you this picture I have of him. Of Rodney. Yeah. And I never met Rodney. Yeah. So I came to, well, there's two things that are very funny. One is, uh, when we were booking Rodney, like Lauren said, "Oh, Rodney's going to be in town. Put him on Update." He'd always do that. Yeah. We'd have to somehow force this person on Update, and we wouldn't know what to do. But you had respect for him. Oh, I loved Rodney. Yeah. I loved Rodney. So, uh, so Jim Downey, who is a great writer and Harvard, a true intellectual, and, and he, um, so he's like, "How are we going to do Rodney?" And then, so he had an idea where I would go, "Rodney, you know, um, you've been in the business now 50 years, and how's it going?" He goes, "I got no respect. No respect at all." You know, he'd do a couple jokes. I go, "I can't believe that. What about your, certainly your children have respect for respect?" What, what about your bartender? You know what I mean? And, and he'd say, "My bartender guy said, 'Double.'" He brought out a guy looked like me. "I can't believe this. Your own bartender?" Yeah. So that was my, we pitched to Rodney. Daddy pitches to Rodney over the phone. And Rodney goes, he goes, "What the [ __ ] you talking about?" He goes, "Let me talk to Norm." You know, so then he gets out with me. He goes, "Who is this [ __ ] guy?" Goes, "Doesn't he know my whole thing is no respect?" This [ __ ] [ __ ] sucker thinks so, you know? So I was, so then I told Downey, said, "Yeah, like Rodney just thinks of a writer as a guy who paid five bucks the back, right?" But anyways, Rodney came to the show, and we had, you know, dress rehearsal, and then the show. So he's like, "Why do I have to [ __ ] do dress rehearsal?" He goes, "I can't do Rodney." Uh, "Why can't, why do we have to do dress rehearsal?" You know, "I know my [ __ ] jokes. I just go out." I go, "I don't know, Rodney." Like, "I don't." "He just has to do." And he goes, "Ah, [ __ ] it." "It's [ __ ]." You know, he goes, "I tell you, kid." He goes, "It's all waiting." You know, he goes, "[ __ ] it." He goes, "You know, he goes, movies are [ __ ]. You know, all you do is [ __ ] sit in a trailer and wait." He goes, "[ __ ] TV is [ __ ]." He goes, "It's all [ __ ]." You know, he goes, "Always remember this." And he, like, looks me in the eye, right? He goes, "Stand up, man. Stand up's the only thing." Then there's like a two-minute pause. He goes, "Stand up's [ __ ] [ __ ]." I'm just alone in a room with him. So I shake his hand. He negated the entire world.

Oh, the funniest thing was, Josh, Josh was with us. Yeah. Was an intern at *Saturday Night Live*. So, uh, I guess I have a bit of cruelty sometimes in me. But Josh would tell, always tell this joke to me, and I'd get him to tell this joke to everybody because I thought it was funny. Yeah. And he'd say, uh, Josh, this is how he talks. He's right here. Yeah. He would go, uh, "There's two gay guys, and, uh, and one of the gay guys goes to the other gay guy, 'I have a new game for you. Hide and seek.' Um, 'I'll hide. You try to find me.' And, and if you find me, you get to [ __ ] my ass. I'll be behind the couch." Was this [ __ ] joke? And so I made him tell everyone. Yeah. So I made you remember, I made you tell Rodney. Yeah. So it was the greatest moment. [ __ ] Rodney were stuck, stuck in this real narrow hallway. Best. Hey, Rodney, you know, standing there, all, you know, twitching, moving around, rocking. It's like, "Oh, you got to hear this joke." And so then Josh stumbles through the joke, and at the end, Rodney looks at him. He goes, "I tell you, kid, I'm not much for jokes. I got most for most of our jokes in the history of ever." Well, yeah, I remember the weird thing about Rodney. Like, I, you, I never really met him. But I was, How'd you not meet him? Well, I mean, I, like, because I wasn't an established comic, you know, really. And, like, I worked the door at the store, and he came on once, uh, and I used to see him around a bit. But, like, what broke my heart was this weird, they did this roast of him, like, or tribute at the Aspen Comedy Festival, and there, then the dudes that they got on it was like Paul Rodriguez, I think Saget was there, and they're like, three or four other guys. And I had this weird moment where I realized that, you know, he was sort of a marginal character within his own generation of comics. He was so, you know, depressed and and miserable, truly, apparently, right? And, and like, I, I just had this moment where I realized, "Oh my God, he's like a lone wolf. He's got, he, like, his peers aren't even like, they couldn't get anyone else to fly in and show some [ __ ] love." That right? Right. Like the, the older guys, right? We're the dudes of his generation. Then he started to realize, you never see him on the roast or anything. That he must have been this, this lone [ __ ] wolf out there, just with his own misery. And that thing Carl Reiner said was, uh, that's the best thing I've ever heard was, uh, "You know, I had Reiner in here, and Rodney, you know, took a liking to Kennis." You know, and Reiner was Sam's best friend. And, uh, I remember Rodney used to call Kennis when, this is before he was on medication, because I think the last decade of his life, he was medicated, and I think he had some peace. But, but apparently, like, Kennis had been up for two days, and, you know, was doing the Kennis thing, like, just sitting there. And, and Rodney walked in and said, "Oh, look at little Nero." Yeah. Ronny's seen it all. He's just seen it all. I remember, like, I'm always amazed at guys. It's not, I don't know if it's admirable or not, but, uh, 'cause I quit drugs when I was 10 or some [ __ ] thing. I got scared immediately. You know, this guy, what drug did you do? Get, I'm exaggerating. But when I was very, very young, I got very frightened very quickly. And, and, but I'm always, like, holy, with those old guys, I go, "Jesus Christ, like, how many, you went through all those, uh, coke, where you think you're going to die, and [ __ ], you're still doing it?" Like, it was always amazing with him. Yeah. He had hell of a constitution to to put himself through that. I remember Saget told me one time, [ __ ], remember when he had a, he had a heart attack and a brain [ __ ] aneurysm at the same time or something? He was in the hospital. Yeah. And he just left. You know, pulled the thing out, went to the comic club. So Saget said he walked in, this two days earlier, he had been in this major operation, and he said he saw, he saw, um, Rodney with two, like, hookers, you know, and Rodney was waiting for Ron Jeremy to show up. It was two days after the, and he's like, 70. He's 70. So then Saget said to him, he said, "Rodney," he goes, "How, how, how are you doing?" And he said, "Rodney said to him, 'How am I doing?' He goes, 'I'm with, I'm with two [ __ ]. I'm waiting for a guy who can suck his own dick. How you doing?'" What a [ __ ] classic, man.

I know that. I got one of a [ __ ] kind. Like, when I think of, like, because everybody else, you know, asks you who the best comics are and everything, and of course, your mind always goes to Pryor and, yeah, and those guys. But, you, you always forget about Rodney. Well, yeah, I remember when I was a kid, I was reading the, my favorite joke section of the *Parade* magazine. Used to come in the Sunday supplement, and they used to have this last page was just comedians' jokes. And I remember reading his, and like, I still remember, you know, uh, you know, some of those jokes. What was like the one that I never, for some reason, sticks out in my mind? He like, "I get no respect. I woke up this morning, you know, I got out of bed. I put my hand on the bathroom door, the knob fell off. I picked up, yeah, I put on the faucet, the faucet handle fell off. I got to tell you, I was afraid to go to the bathroom." You know, I mean, you know where it's going to go. But, but reading that stuff and realizing that people actually wrote those jokes, and like, for a guy like that, does jokes? He wrote, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that, like, he probably, I think that he had, you know, people would give him jokes. I mean, what a, it's like, you know, when these guys get famous, then every joke is attributed like Groucho Marx. I'm sure, [ __ ]. Yeah, that happens all the time, though.

Did you have that feeling like, or Yogi Berra? Like, every [ __ ] thing everyone ever says, they just say it was Yogi Berra. Well, there used to be something that bothered me about this idea that even there's a blind side to even very intelligent people when they watch, you know, Stewart or Bill Maher or anybody on TV, Dennis Miller. They're like, you know, like, "It's amazing, all his jokes. How does he write all his jokes?" It's like, he doesn't. Of course not. You know, like, you, I, there was some part of me when the writer strike hit where I'm like, "I felt like they're now, they're going to know, the cat's out of the bag. Who was going to write their own jokes now?" I don't know. That would be interesting to just have the guys write their own stuff. Well, I think a lot of them can, and I, and I don't begrudge anyone to have writers because I think when you get to a level like, I mean, you obviously, when you did *Update*, people wrote jokes for you. But, but if you're a guy that's got that, uh, defined a voice, I mean, it's a gift. And if people can actually write for you, then it's like a beautiful thing. It's pretty kind of easy to write for some. I noticed in sitcoms, which I have no [ __ ] idea. I don't even like them. But I worked on them. Well, you were on one. You did one three seasons, right? You had to run. What was it called again? *The Norm Show*. So it went down with your name on it. Yeah. That's the bad. But no, I didn't know anything. I didn't want to be. I didn't know what the [ __ ] I was doing. Well, did you? The only thing I said is, well, Seinfeld has a sitcom. I think I can act as good as Jerry Seinfeld. That's how you got it. He had the biggest sitcom in the world. And I go, 'cause I never thought, you know, I mean, I can't act. But, you know, I, I surrounded myself with actors, and it was okay. But, um, but man, when I started writing sitcoms, because when you come from standup, where the [ __ ] joke has to be good, yeah, I started writing. I wrote on *Roseanne*. And I remember I look at the script, I go, "Holy [ __ ], it's gonna, the whole thing's gonna bomb. Everybody's gonna be booing." The jokes were so bad. Jokes were so [ __ ] because, you know, a standup, it's so [ __ ] hard to get a joke together. And they're going, "Nah, no, it'll work." And then of course, it works because they laugh up the audience, and they love those characters, and they love the characters. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, that's also the thing about people that can create a sitcom. They create characters and everything like that. Yeah. Then you can go on and write. It's very easy to write characters that are already. I think sitcoms are all about the relationships between the characters. People gravitate towards the emotional dynamic of an ensemble. And it's not, it's got nothing to do with jokes. Like, you watch *The Honeymooners*. They got no jokes at all. No. You just love those couple of fat jokes. But then that, you just Art Carney and Jackie Gleason. Yeah. But I remember on my show, I go, "Can't we think up some [ __ ] situations?" Like, it's supposed to be a situation comedy. And the situation you're coming up with is, "I'm dating a girl that's his [ __ ]." That's the funny situation. 'Cause you know, I said, I remember [ __ ] reading like, you could read a thing of *The Honeymooners* and [ __ ] be smiling. You go, "Ralph thinks he's a millionaire." [ __ ]. "This is gonna be funny." But then it's like, then it's like, uh, you know, on *Friends*, it's like, "Jennifer thinks she might have feelings for Matt." You know, that's what the [ __ ] is funny about that. Yeah.

So, okay, so what happened to the sports show? That hit you pretty hard? No, no. I'm sorry. I tried to structure a question in a sensitive way. It didn't hit me hard. It didn't. No. What? Because I, I never expect success. I mean, you don't. No. Never. No. Just, but, you know, but you can always go back to standup. Are you? Well, that's my, my luck. You were out of that. You did, you stop for a while? No, I always did it. I mean, I did less of it, but I would always, I, you know, because especially when you're doing [ __ ] that you don't like, it's, it's good to go on the road and, uh, 'cause you have complete control of that thing. Yeah. And you can be funny. Yeah. You know, and it's all on your terms. And, you know, you live or die by what. Because it is a very odd experience to be saying to be being not funny in front of a crowd that is laughing hard at your [ __ ] not funny [ __ ]. You know, that which is sitcom. You feel that, "Holy [ __ ], man, it's like you're in a [ __ ] nightmare. You're like, what is going on here? Like, that didn't [ __ ] that wasn't funny." And they just wait till you stop talking and then they laugh because they're participants. These [ __ ] audiences. Yeah. They're doing their part. They're doing their part, right? And, you know, that's what I loved about *Saturday Night Live* is they could [ __ ] things could bomb. Like, really. Only *Saturday Night Live* and the early Letterman, uh, you could see people [ __ ] bomb. Oh, yeah. No laughs. And there's no other place on TV. Every other place, every, every joke works. It's a, it's an amazing moment. Even when you watch old Dick Cavett shows, like, and that was a popular show, and you're watching, if you watch him now, the audience almost does nothing. Like, you know, he'll get a joke off, and he's like, nothing. You're like, "Oh, my." Because people didn't have the same expectations that they do now. These [ __ ] people who run the, who run TV made it like this, that, you know, there's something about, you can be funny without there being a ridiculous moronic joke every [ __ ] 30 seconds. You know, people can can accept people just being people for a minute. Sure. There's that horrible. I wish talk shows would, maybe you can do it or something. But the, you know, Carson, you'd never see the audience. No. You never see the audience. And he listened to people. Now the audiences, oh, yeah. They're out touching the audience. I mean, that was the first thing that I noticed about Jay, and I've never done a show, and I got no beef with him. I just don't watch the show. But all of a sudden, he's out there touching people, and I'm like, "What's he doing? Is this a zoo?" It's funny because Letterman and Leno do that. And really, the guy who, Letterman doesn't touch him well, but I mean, they're there. They're like, he's, you know, I mean, that's a theater. It feels like a real thing. It is, but it's not completely separate. Like on late night, right? But, uh, where they're up in a little pen, like the old Conan show, where's the audience? They're up there in the pen, six feet up, and they're just sitting back there in a box and just talking about it. Now, I think probably the guy who changed it and did it the best was [ __ ] Arenas. He was the real guy that could. I guarantee you that's the only time this is being said in this country right now. No, but he, you know, Leno always looks so uncomfortable slapping people's hands. You know what I mean? Uh, uh, this guy was the genius at doing the monologue that were, I don't even remember jokes. I think he just did topics. Yeah. He would just talk. He was not saying anything. He was not about saving a moment. Yeah. But the audience, I mean, the audience in that show was so, uh, into the, so part of the show, you know. So now, what happened with the sports show? Oh, I don't know. It was just, it was uncom Central. And I, you know, I watched it. It was funny, and I'm not a sports guy. Yeah. It was all right. But you're funny. It was, that's nice. SM. Yeah. It was, it was, because I think it, I don't know. I don't really give a [ __ ]. But it was, you really don't give a [ __ ]? I don't give a [ __ ] about too much. Okay. But the, it's funny because people think I should. Like, when I got fired from, I still get asked about SNL. I'll thank, "Thanks for not asking me about it." I don't know why. Now, I just brought it up. But when I got fired from SNL, people still ask me like, "Ah, [ __ ], don't you hate that guy?" I go, "I [ __ ] what? No, he didn't think I was funny. I get it. I understand." And also, there's so much politics involved in that [ __ ].

I got actually a weird question, and, and I don't know if you can answer it for me, but I'm obsessed with it, and I, and I discuss it with people that have been on SNL. But, and you come into it specifically there, before you got fired, there was a point there where you were negotiating and you might not go back to the show? Correct? No, there wasn't ever a point where you were sort of like, you know, not deciding whether or not you were going to renew your contract? No. Me? No. No. Why? Well, no, because they brought me in, you know, I, like, I met with Lorne, I did the whole, I jumped, yeah, I jumped through all the hoops. Really? I was, I was the, the, you were the guy. But what I, but like, what I understood later, I just, I, I didn't get it, obviously, and it went nowhere. You would have been good. You know, right? But I, like, someone came up to me, a [ __ ] writer who I don't remember his name, but he had written, he was on the beat back then, I can't remember his name. But like, after, you know, after I went through all that, you know, he came up to me and said, "Yeah, they were just trying to to pressure Norm." Oh, no, that's not true. Good. Because I told, uh, I told Lorne at one point, I'd do it forever. I said, "What if I was like Walter Cronkite? I won't ask for much money. I'll just, [ __ ], just I do it till I'm 65." And he's like, "What?" Yeah. But, uh, no, that couldn't have been it. But it could have been. It was probably they were getting ready to, uh, to get rid of me because they always pretended it was Doner. But I think it was, I don't think that's true. You just think it was in-house? I think it was every, yeah, everybody. Because, because it was a particular thing where we had, uh, a lot of autonomy on *Update*. Well, this was, and they tried to tie it to O.J. and everything else. Yeah, they did that. But I believe, and what do you think? Well, so you just think it was a business decision? I think, well, yeah, I think it was, um, that we had a lot of autonomy on *Update*, which didn't make the other people feel very happy. It was like the news division in network. "Don't touch my news division." It was like that. And we had Jim Downey. It was me and Jim, and Jim was very, Lorne was a little like, uh, uh, you know, rightfully respectful of Jim and let Jim on his own. So anyways, um, I think the whole show was tired of me, uh, not taking marching orders. Oh, really? I think so. Like, Lorne would, uh, Lorne hints at things. Like, he would go, like, "I don't know if you really," because I do Michael Jackson jokes or something. He goes, "I don't really know if you want Michael Jackson to, you want a lawsuit by Michael Jackson." Oh, he's suggesting pass. And I go, "That's cool. I'm like a [ __ ]. I'm just answering his question. I go, "Be [ __ ] cool. Michael Jackson suing me, and I'm in court with him." And [ __ ]. He's like, like I would never get his stuff till later. And then I go, "Oh, yeah, that's a." So he would say, basically, in in a slightly, uh, passive-aggressive way, "Maybe you shouldn't do that." He would. And I'm such a [ __ ]. The passive aggression does not work on me. I need aggression. Well, is that an innuendo thing? You have a problem with? Can you just say, "Don't do that"? Seriously, I, I keep missing it. Yeah. And I wish the guy would just go, "Don't do it," and then I wouldn't do it. You know what I mean? But he, he says, he suggests things, and I go, "Okay, [ __ ] it. That's hilarious."

So, are you working on something now? I mostly do standup. I mean, there's always like, uh, there's always like, you're not hosting the poker thing anymore? [ __ ] thing? Oh, the poker? No, I do. I don't know. Poker is illegal now. So I'm not sure. It's illegal? It's, yeah, they shut down all the sites. So, so how you doing with that thing? Oh, the gambling thing. A [ __ ] man. Yeah. Gambling is a, I don't know. You know, I kind of, like, I went broke like a few times when I actually had lots of money. Gambling. Three times. Gambling with gambling. Yeah. And I mean, broke, dead broke. Like, uh, and, um, so would you call yourself a degenerate gambler? Well, I don't, "degenerate" has a negative connotation. But certainly compulsive. Yeah. And, and, but, um, I don't know what it was. I, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do know this. When I would go broke, 'cause they say gamblers want to lose and stuff, which always seemed odd to me. But I will say the three times that I went broke for a lot of money, I had a very freeing feeling. You know, I would go to the coffee shop and have a coffee and have nothing. And a lot, a lot of me is, um, trying to get the [ __ ] as aesthetic as I can in my life. Oh, really? So, was a Zen thing? This is like a, you would recommend if you wrote a book on Zen, it would be like, "Go out, make a bunch of stupid bets, lose everything, and enjoy." Yeah. That, yeah. Zen and the Art of Being a [ __ ]. The, uh, but I, I, not because it's, it bring would bring me peace of mind or anything, but because every, every, my, when I, in a, I bought a house for the first time ever. Yeah. And it was like, I was walling myself into a [ __ ] tomb or something. All of a sudden, like, [ __ ]. Yeah. I'm like, "I don't want to be here." Yeah. I don't want, I don't want a bunch of stuff to have to [ __ ]. Mostly because I'm lazy, I guess. I don't want to have a [ __ ] footstool because I have to clean it out, right? I feel the same way. Well, it's exhausting because there's no end to, uh, you, you, you become tethered to it, and you worry about it. You got a house, it's like, "Who's going to fix that light?" Right? Do I got to call a guy? Do I got to hire a guy to call the guy? And I'm sure, you know, and I know guys because we're not rich, but we know rich guys, yeah, that have [ __ ] massive houses and, and, [ __ ], and you go, "[ __ ], it seems like a."

Nightmare. Well, then you know what I realized? I just realized it two days ago. I can't. I got a two-bedroom house here. And if you notice, when he went to pee, that second bedroom just got a bed. And my girlfriend [ __ ] it all over the floor. And and and the fact that there's nothing in there, every day it's like a curse. I walked by that room, I'm like, I don't know what to do with that room. Like, and like I'm worried. I think that my entire house, like I found a little termite damage. It looked like 50 years old. I'm like, is there even wood underneath this stucco or is there just sort of like brittle? I don't know what's.

Anyways, are you, do you rent? No, I own this [ __ ] this like place. I think if you rent, you can move. I think that's. Of course, of course. But I, you know, I bought. Yeah, I bought a house. Like I bought this thing. But everybody told me to buy, right? I bought it. It was built in 1924. And you're like, but that's nice, is it? I don't know. Like the floor is not insulated. It's a [ __ ] oven in there when it's hot. And when it's cold, I feel like I'm living in a refrigerator. I just had a rat die under my house for three days. But that's the kind of person I am. Like the rat's sitting under there, dead. I know there's a dead thing under there, but I don't want to [ __ ] crawl under there and get this dead thing. So I'm like, I'll ride it out. How long could it take for it to completely decompose? I can live in this shitty smell. And then, then, then eventually I call my gardener and I'm like, do you know a guy? They, oh, I'll do it. And I'm like, oh my God. You know, for 50 bucks, he climbs under there, he pulls his [ __ ] rat out. And I'm like, it takes 60. I, I don't. I'm, I'm a sport. Here's $10 more for taking 20 minutes to do something I'm too much of a [ __ ] to do.

But, uh, but I, but what I realized two days ago is that if you're making 20 million a year, to pay a guy $100,000 to watch your cars is nothing. You know, to pay a guy $60,000 a year to cook every [ __ ] meal for you and spoon feed it, which they'll do for $60,000, is meaningless. So I think it's really about that. It's like, but I don't have a mind that works like that. I want to be part of. I want to do it all myself. I'll hire a Mexican guy to go into my house, sure, but I'll feel bad about it. I get him some water, you know. But, but if you have enough money to to not give a [ __ ] and just pay people to wipe your ass for you, that you've earned it, I guess that's your big payoff. But for you, I don't know that you could live with that. No, I, I, that wouldn't be fun for me.

What was the biggest bet you ever made? Oh, God almighty. Um, I don't know. I, I one time. I mean, the most I lost in one night. Where because three times I've lost everything that I've ever had. How do you do that? I mean, not, not morally, but I mean, like, how do you physically do it? Well, yeah, I mean, like, you know, you, you like you make one more. What is the process of that? What's the evolution? It's funny because it's a, um, the only time I ever went to a psychiatrist, he said, like, I was like, because it was for gambling, I'm like, how the [ __ ] do I get out of this? And he's like, oh, you gamble to avoid, uh, life, you know? And I'm like, but my, my thing was like, isn't that why you do everything in life? Is to [ __ ] avoid us? You know what I mean? Like, it's too painful. Yeah. Why do you? So I said, uh, but, oh, it's painful to think about. But, um, um, because, because now it would be nice to have the money. But, um, you just lose it by, uh, by it's just like any escape, I guess. Because I was never a drug or alcohol guy. But like when I watch a game and I have a bunch of money on it, then I can understand what's going on. Nothing's ambivalent or anything about it, you know? And there, and there's stakes. There's stakes, you know, exactly the rules. Yeah. You're completely involved and you're completely escaped from your life. Yeah. Of the, of the real, the real, the real fear, you know? I'd rather fear losing money on a football game than ruminate all [ __ ] night about, uh, about my upcoming, uh, show, illness, and death.

Oh, oh, that. Yeah. No, not my show. No, my biggest problem is ruminating about death. If I could get over that somehow. And you do that regularly? I try to. I read [ __ ] books about it. And, [ __ ], have you read that Becker book, Denial of Death? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's my favorite book in the world. Oh, it is? Yeah. I have both. I have all his books. I'm getting his newsletter. And he's dead. He's dead. The Becker Foundation. It's helped me a little bit. Yeah. Well, well, that, uh, the whole idea of that is the, the transferring that, you know, to feel part of something bigger than yourself, to define your life. And you can do with that what you want. I mean, it's better if it's God than gambling. I think. In some. God is the best. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, I, that's what I'm trying to get to. Is God? Well, let's go. Let's get. Let's get. Let's get to God, peace meal. So like, you still haven't walked me through losing everything. Well, um, how you do it? Yeah. Because like, I mean, because like, you know, you've got a house, you, you had a lot of money saved up. And and and and then like, so you make one bet and then you realize you're you're about to lose everything. Do you make phone calls to people saying like, I just need a little more? I mean, well, you know, you kind of at the end of it, you know, uh, it's happening. It's, I guess it's like, I, I've never had substance to be this problems, but I guess it's like people that, um, know they're going to hit bottom, you know, and kind of want it. Yeah, because it does get, it's exhausting, yeah, to be obsessed with something, right? So, um, you are, I guess, um, trying to do it, trying to finish it off finally. Because if you, if you have 450,000 in the bank, whatever the [ __ ] it was, and then you lose 400,000, you go, [ __ ] it, I don't want the [ __ ] have 50,000, right? To remind me that I don't want money to remind me I had more money. So that's how you do it. So that's how you do it. And you did that three, three times? Three times in my life. Yeah. And and how long have you been off it? Um, I've been off it like probably five years or so. Yeah. And you're trying to get some spirituality in your life? I'm trying to. Because all I, uh, the only real joy I get, uh, other than I love watching comedy, but anything deeper than that is I read a lot of literature and stuff. I'm not, I'm not educated. Like I never had any schooling. Uh-huh. And I don't read nonfiction much, but I read lots of literature. And, um, like who, uh, Tolstoy, Fuller. But the, um, faith keeps coming up. And I'm like, these [ __ ] are smart. Yeah. I mean, you know, like I was always like, you know, uh, prior to this [ __ ], most deep, profound guy I ever [ __ ] heard, you know, from my limited perspective. Then all of a sudden I'm reading books, I'm like, holy [ __ ], this guy knows everything. Like I was reading Tolstoy, I was like, [ __ ], one word, one sentence, this guy. And so, but then I was like, why are all these guys, uh, it all comes down to faith, you know? It seems to every [ __ ] great novel I read, it seems like faith is the only, um, um, salvation, yeah. So, but I don't know how to get it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know how to just suddenly believe. Surrender. I don't know how to do that. I'm not, I'm too, I don't know, I'm too, uh, stupid or proud or pretend I'm smart or whatever. Or phras probably afraid. Yeah. To. It's, yeah, to surrender. It's hard. It's, it's like this equation that your brain has to do where you realize that you have very little control over anything. That that moment where you realize like, you know, just about all of it is out of my control. Yeah. And there's only two things you can do in that moment, which is either I'm [ __ ] or it's okay. And and how you support it's okay is with some kind of faith, I guess. Yeah. I, I, I, because I've come to a long time ago that I have no control over anything. But I, I, I've been struggling with faith. I'll just throw myself into, um, religion sometimes. But the problems with that is, then you get into churches and stuff, and then you get into men and stuff like that, you know what I mean? And and then you go, oh, it's, it's very easy to fall into the trap of going like, religion's bad. I mean, I mean, God's bad because this [ __ ] priest [ __ ] a kid, which is [ __ ], you know what I mean? Why does that make God bad? [ __ ] sense. Just means the people that represent him questionable. So, um, you know, so then if you go to any church, obviously it's led by fallible men, and you can't believe in them. So you got to kind of come, you know, come to it yourself somehow. But I really, I don't have the answer of how you do that or anything.

Where are you at with it now? I don't know. The only thing I've ever explored is is Christianity. I, you know, and that kind of I liked it. Yeah. But it's just extremely hard to to to keep believing. It's really [ __ ] hard. Yeah. You know, because, uh, it's the hardest thing to believe. And I think I'm not deep enough. I don't know if that's true. I, I, I think that, you know, just by nature of the fact that you're a comedian, and that part of the way you understand things is by cutting through [ __ ] you know, with jokes. I mean, especially you, I mean, you cut through [ __ ]. I mean, you know, you call [ __ ] on just about anything, you know, very concisely and in a very funny way. That when you're sitting here trying to sort of like, you stay, uh, in in a place of faith into the, you know, the, you know, the sort of the Jesus thing and the, you know, and whatever you're choosing to hang that faith on, there's going to be part of you that thinks like, that's is [ __ ]. There is. Yeah. Especially when it's specific like that. But then I don't want to be a [ __ ] idiot that goes like, you know, sometimes you meet people, they're like, I'm spiritual. You're like, what? They're like, I have my own thing. Like, why you work at Burger King? You figured out a [ __ ] whole thing by yourself. Yeah. Well, they, they've got their own thing that enables them to work at Burger King without hanging themselves. That's a pretty powerful. Yeah. I don't want to. I'm not going to certainly if I'm not going to accept Christianity, I'm not going to accept some [ __ ] 17-year-old girl's [ __ ] idea. Well, maybe you should just get a job at Burger King. Maybe the humility of that will, will shed a little light. It's like, because it's exactly the same feeling I think you probably had when, uh, uh, when you had to deal with the blind guy that, you know, there's something, you know, outside of you. There's there's bigger struggles that are had by many people, and they, they seem to survive. I've actually thought about working with blind people because it, because I look back on that time and it really, it was the first time you really look outside yourself. It's pretty incredible the things that you observe. Even as a, a writer or anything, I think it would be incredibly important. Well, I think that's important for like a spiritual thing too, is to not think about first. Yeah. I think most spiritual people, you're exactly right. And but I think a lot of people go, that's the way to find it is to look inside yourself. But I think you're right. I think it's not, it's to look outside. It's, it's to try to get past your ego. Yeah. To to get that thing hammered down to to almost nothing. To where you, you actually think about the better of somebody else over yourself. Yeah. And that's holy [ __ ]. I would never be able to do that. Right. Well, that's very contrary to like, there's this other whole movement now, the positive thinking people. Oh, yeah. All you got to do is throw that switch, man. Everything's okay. Hey, don't be negative. I [ __ ] can't deal with that [ __ ]. But you got, but you can see in acting or in comedy, that that works. I know, like the person that goes, hey man, I'm cool. Everything's going to be good. Then it is. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, it's it's horrendous. But is it really? I mean, just because you're denying your flaws and, you know, everything else. I mean, you can sort of fake it till you make it, or there's a lot of slow against act as if, whatever it is. But, but still, it's like, you know, they say that eventually this will just kick in in earnest until one day you're like, it's not kicking in and this is [ __ ] up and you guys misled me and [ __ ] all of you. The truth is, it's dark and horrible and we die alone. [ __ ] you guys. Yeah. The, yeah, the, as the, what is it called? If what act as if. Act as if. I, I guess I understand what that means. Yeah. Sure. But act as. Yeah. But all these books and all these things, you know, the bowel cancer hasn't read the book. Yeah. Know what I mean? They don't read anything. [ __ ] cancer. Yeah. I, I, I, whenever someone, like people start talking about organs, I [ __ ] check out. I mean, I can handle a lot of dark [ __ ]. You know, I can fill my head with stuff. But when people start saying like, I had kidney failure, I'm like, oh God, oh no. Nothing. That's why those [ __ ] the scariest movies always to me were the like the Cronenberg movies, always the inside biology. I was thinking about The Fly recently. I like where that moment where he like, he's climbing up the wall and he's like, pretty weird, huh? You're like, oh God, that. And then when he breaks apart and there's a giant fly inside of him.

Can we turn this around somehow to end this thing? It's like my act. When I do my act, I never think of a [ __ ] ending. Try just [ __ ] me too. Unravel, I guess. This is, uh, we good? You done? Terri? You guys feel okay with what happened here? Every week I go, why didn't I think of something? Do you do that thing where you look? It's like, okay, I've done an hour and 15 and I don't know that, uh, you know, how it's structured really matters. I'm done. That's what I'm like. And then I know people are kind of sound there like, where's the, what's the matter with him? Well, I'm glad you're doing okay, man. I really. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm glad you are, man. This is awesome. This is so sorry. It's so hot. It's so cool. It is hot, but it's cool. You got this thing, uh, that's your own and you don't have to, um, listen to, uh, yeah, no one can really tell me what to do except bad Mark. I talked to Bob Costas, you know, and he does B. You're not a, a sports fan, but I like him. He's all right. He's great. Baseball. These [ __ ] baseball. Know everything. And was after I got fired and [ __ ] and he said, ah, [ __ ]. He goes, I know how it is. He goes, I got people my. He, these producers telling me. I'm like, you do? Like, he calls baseball games even he's got [ __ ] guys like they say this, you know, really? Yeah. He says people are saying his ears and he's like, it's always nonsense [ __ ]. You know, yeah. So it's nice that you have a place where a guy doesn't go, hey, yeah, ask him this. No, it's, it's, I'm very grateful that it's working out and I love doing it. But I do have a guy within me that says like, oh, the other shoe is going to drop, dude. [ __ ]. But the thing, but something is going to happen. Thanks. That's the bad part. All right, let's leave it there. Okay. Love you, buddy. Love you too, man. Oh my God, what a great conversation. Completely surprised. You guys. Norm Macdonald. Sweet, thoughtful, reflective. I, I had no idea. I, I, I loved that conversation. I really did. Oh, man, that was fun. Great guy. Anyways, that's our show. I am Mark Maron. Why am I doing that now? I already do that at the beginning. Look, go to wtfpod.com. Please get on the mailing list. If you want to kick in a donation, we got, uh, shirts, you know, if you do the $10 a month thing, you get a shirt, you get some stickers, you get my, uh, unconditional love. If you do the $250, you know, one-time donation, you'll get three CDs, a couple of shirts, some stickers, my, you know, double unconditional love. But you can also just go to wtfpod.com. We got new videos, you got links to the YouTube page that we got now. You can see the entire episode catalog. You can get the app.