Transcription
So many people are so interested in understanding how to deal with disrespectful people. Yeah, like being disrespected, right? So if I'm being disrespected, is there a playbook for me to handle that? And why is it that so many people are so obsessed with, like, dealing with disrespect?
I find that people are really attracted to comebacks and things, and I find that so funny. But it's a big part of communication for an important reason. When somebody is, let's say, belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, there's kind of—I teach a little bit of a different method for each one—and how you handle it makes a very big difference.
What we typically want to do when somebody's being rude to us or disrespectful, we want to throw it right back at their face. We want to ratchet it up because now we got to—now we got to win. So you think I'm stupid? How about let me talk about how you're stupid? I mean, so we want to throw it back at the other person. All that does is ratchet it up, and then again, it becomes to who's going to apologize first. That kind of is where the game starts to lead.
Um, what do you—I was curious what you have on the book now.
Well, I was just looking at this section in your book about dealing with difficult people.
Yeah, that's probably my favorite.
Um, it's your favorite?
Yeah. It was also probably the most popular part of the book because it outlines a specific manual on how to handle these kinds of people. And I've developed it from these people specifically that I've had in depositions and cross-examinations in the courtroom—that very combative people—that you find ways to—you think that the power is in having a direct response back at them that's going to uppercut them.
Like smart people, people like you, Stephen, people like all your listeners, we have this desire that when somebody says something ugly, we want to send the zinger. Like we want to have—we want to craft something so poetic that it's not going to hit him until two days later, they're like, "Oh my gosh, she totally got me." And that's just not going to happen. But the true power is this kind of "Be Like Water" mentality. It's instead of direct with them, you're just avoiding it; you're pushing it out of the way to where you're going—what you're saying is not threatening to me. And you do that in several different ways.
This would be how I'd say how to handle people that are belittling you or giving you disrespect: one, you're going to add silence—five to seven seconds of nothing; two, you're going to ask them to say it again. Let's say it's insults—those insults are very direct. You're asking them to repeat it; and three, you're going to just let that sit—whatever they say.
For example, um, let's put it in terms of somebody to—let's give it an example. This would be somebody who's giving you just a straight insult. Insults are different from a disrespect or something being rude. Insults are very direct—saying somebody saying, like, "You're ugly," right? Um, how I—if I were to say, "You're ugly," how would you respond? And you're not, by the way, but let's just say—
So it's so hard because it's like the context-dependent, like you—I'd laugh, but if it was like—it depends on the context, doesn't it?
Yeah, I was—I was like, "Oh, that's—that's the shirt you went with, I guess." All right, okay. Like that's whenever somebody is insulting you. Yeah, we have this ability to get really mad and stew on it and get angry, but the best way to do it is—let's say if you told me, you know, "I—I really think you're an idiot, Jefferson"—give it a little bit of silence, and I would repeat, "I'm an idiot, Jefferson." Now that's going to put it spotlight right back on you—for you to confirm it, double down on it, or you're gonna apologize. A lot of time in arguments, people take it back—"I'm sorry, I shouldn't have—I shouldn't have said that. My head was—I got to in front of it." But if they double down on it, what all you need to do is just thank them—"Thank you." In other words, "Thank you for showing me who you are. Thank you for making sure that I'm not going to be with you uh anymore. And this is who you are in my life."
Very different from—from let's say—with somebody who is belittling you, patronizing you, being condescending to you—this is where uh it gets fun. This is one of my favorite ones. So let's—let's give this a—a test. "Oh, Stephen, I see that uh you lost some weight. That's—that's great, man. Good—good for you." How would you typically want to respond to that?
"Thank you."
Yeah. Now if I had said something that was um a little bit more ugly, if it was like, "Oh, you finally lost some weight. I was wondering when you would—"
Yeah.
"—Uh, that's—that's good on you." Would you still say "Thank you" again?
No.
Yeah. What would you say?
That's right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You'd be like, "Oh, okay. That's—that's a little offensive." So here's what I would want you to do: add silence. We're going to have five to seven seconds of silence. And what that does is allow them—their words to fall. So it's going to—one—tell you that their words aren't threatening. You're adding that space in there for two reasons: one, to calm you down because you're going to be using breath; we talked about—second of all, it allows them to hear their words back because it's like they walked their words out onto a plank, and now they're all alone. So if you—if you had said something ugly to me, and um you said something like, "Oh well, um, Jefferson, great to be here, I guess. I—I guess we'll include you. I guess you just came—" It's something that made me feel like I wasn't wanting. And if I just let that hang for a little bit, and then I ask a question of intent—these are what I call questions of intent—where it says, "Did you say that to upset me? Did you say that to hurt me? Or did you mean—" If you begin your phrase with "Did you mean," "Did you mean for that to offend me? Did you mean for that to be rude?" I do this a lot in uh email correspondence or texts when somebody sends something to you and you feel like all of a sudden it's rude, but really, if you just text, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" Like it cures up almost instantly because it's not—exactly—a lot of the time people don't mean it that way, but they're going to say something to you that is going to respond, and most likely they're going to say no. They're not going to know how to handle that; they're not going to do with that.
If you can respond with—imagine—imagine being like—imagine being the person who would say that, or "How did you want me to feel?" Or ask them, "How did you feel when you said that? How does it make you feel when you say that?" You're going to say something ugly to me. I give it a big pause, and I would respond, "How does it make you feel when you say that to me?" Or, "I'm surprised you said that out loud."
Can you just tell them how it felt? Can you just say, "That was really hurtful?" Yeah, you can, but that's—that's giving them what they want. You're giving them the dopamine—that's what they wanted. They said that so that it would hurt. They're saying that for—because in their mind, they wanted you to have that sense of pain. They wanted to grab that from you; they wanted that sense of control. So when you say, "Oh, that hurt"—often—that's exactly what they wanted in that moment. Now it's going to take them some time to realize, "Oh, I was really a jerk about that," but in that moment, what they're wanting is that hit of dopamine from you; they're wanting that sense of control. So when you ask them a question—so if I were to say, "That was—that was rude," they're—you're giving them what they want—that's a direct statement. But if I asked, "Did you say that—did you say that to be rude? Did you mean for that to sound rude?" Now they have to admit—that's very different. Now they have to admit what their intent was with that. Now they have to say yes or no. Most—what they—most of the time what they do is they kind of fumble over their words, and they—"What I mean—what I meant to say was—" or, "No, no, no, no. I'm sorry. What—what I meant was—" They don't want to—they don't want to hurt. Now they're going to hurt their reputation. Now they're going to—they put themselves way too far out on a ledge. And that's much harder.
On page 166 of your book, the next conversation you say, "When you hear someone say something rude or insulting, understand that they're wanting something from you. That something is dopamine—the feel-good hormone. That something is dopamine." Yeah. So when they—when somebody says something to be ugly, what they're wanting is your emotion. They're saying, "I'm unhappy. I'm only going to be satisfied if I can make you a little bit unhappy, too." That's where I'm going to feel justified in this. I'm only going to feel justified when I've caused you pain. And when that happens, your best defense against that is to be like a wet blanket—like be a soggy piece of bread. They can't do anything with; they can't move that; they can't control that. And what you're telling them in that moment is, "It's not going to be that fun for you." That's the best way to handle a bully. Bully does something, and you ask them, "Did you say that to hurt me? Or does it feel good for you to say that? Or how did you want me to respond when you said that?"
Let's say I came in and I go, "Oh, I guess we're, you know—I guess this is okay. Yeah, I guess we can talk in here. That's fine," right? I mean, that's kind of condescending, yeah? Wouldn't you say? And if you had asked me in that moment, "Um, did you mean for that to sound rude?" I'd be like, "Oh, no—oh, no, goodness." Either—either I'm calling it out, or you'd say, "That's—that's an odd thing to say out loud. Can you say that in all context?"
So I'm thinking if you can—you say that to your—like the—of the company you're an intern at, and they say something to you, and they look at a piece of work you've made and they go, "I mean, I guess that's okay." Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Does context matter here?
Well, I—I still think you could say it. I mean, it depends how you're going to—yeah. Yes, it just depends—uh—yeah, context certainly matters on some level. But I mean, if—if it is a position of just—I think if there's such a huge power dynamic, something like that—if you're an intern and you're like, "Look, this guy's just having a bad day. I don't think I need"—this is not the time for me to choose to try and have a—a way of making him feel bad—or if it's like, "Okay, I can—I'll accept that, or I can do better with that." There's ways that you can try and diffuse the—the rudeness. Another that I really like to—to use—this would not be in—in that context—but that's below my standard for response—a really bad argument. So I've had it where really, really bad arguments where you've used—"That's below my standard for response"—and they really don't know what to say after that. A lot of times when I'm in depositions and somebody has a snarky comment towards me, I'll ask them, "Now how—how did you want me to respond to that?" They don't know; they don't really have an answer. They kind of just go, "I mean—what I mean—what I meant was—" and they—and they fix it. But the signal you're sending—the whole point of it all—is to show them that the next time you choose to do this, it's not going to be fun. This is not what you're getting. That's the whole point of getting them to repeat. A lot of the times if I say, "You know what? I didn't—I didn't catch that. Can you—can you say that again?" They can't bear to say that again. It's like conversational boundaries.
Yeah.
So one time I had a case between two sisters, and it was about as fun as it sounds—two older sisters fighting over their company; their dad had passed away. I had one sister; another attorney friend of mine had another sister. And my client was, let's say, very level-headed. She wanted to preserve the legacy of their family and the company. The other had very different life choices, let's say, and the other one wanted to sell the company. Well, they eventually came to almost an agreement on how they were going to divvy up—uh—buy the sister out. We're at mediation, and I knew that—we knew that this other sister was—there's no telling what she was going to—she's going to say out of her mouth. And I had already prepared my client for—if she insults—if she says anything ugly, you're going to ask her to say that again. All right? So sure enough, we get at the mediation table; we have an opening discussion, and the sister—the, let's say, the more fiery sister—goes on this tirade and—and says how everything's against her; she hates everything. And then she looks at her sister and says, "And I've never—I—I—I've never loved you. You're dead to me." Anyway, now that's sister to sister—that's like terrible. It was—it was super sad to watch. My client goes, "I need you to say that again to me," and the other sister couldn't do it. She didn't say that again because it—it puts them out on a ledge where they—they can't really—they're not going to get the effect. It's not nearly as effective when you say it the second time. The first time was through emotion; it was the amygdala—you get it—and the second time was—you're forcing them into the prefrontal cortex to make like a—a logic—you got it. Yeah. Now—now they have to think, "Does this make sense for me to say again?" Yeah, because the first—it—the first effect isn't there; it's not as—it's not as powerful. The first time when somebody gives you an insult and you say, "You know, I didn't—I didn't catch all that. I need you to say that again for me. Can you repeat that?" Most of the time they won't because they know at—now I look bad because you—all you did—about with that question—has put the spotlight right back on them, and they can't—they can't take that. So they don't know what to do with it.
It's interesting because some of the things you—as you're talking—thinking is this like advice for dealing with really toxic people, or is this also advice just for dealing with like couples arguing? Because it sounded—the type of person that would not respond to—"That really hurt me"—yeah, sounds like a bit of a monster, right? Like a narcissist. When—when somebody is—so if my girlfriend turned around to me and said, "That really hurt me," I'd like—it would kill me.
Yeah. Some people—yeah, let's put it in—well, one, it's because you love the person, right? And—and she loves you, and so that's—that's a little bit different when you're dealing with people that are everyday rude at the workplace, at the office, or maybe you are in a relationship with somebody who's a narcissist or somebody who is toxic, or you have that bad relationship. I think it's perfectly okay to use these kind of sentences that are going to put somebody back. I mean, like even—let's say in my own relationship—okay, I certainly use—we both use—my wife and I—the—"Did you mean for that to sound short?" I've also said something and said something I didn't mean, and she's come back using my own things—"No, that's okay."
Yeah. And she's using your stuff?
Oh my gosh, yeah. And—and—and she'll say, you know, "Did you—did you say that to upset me?" But—and you're like—"But—but at the same time, understand that when you say those kind of things, some sense of it is giving grace to the other person—of not accepting that what they meant to say—what they said was what they meant to say.
Mhm.
Because maybe I—I'm giving you the chance here to clarify. If I were to say, "Did you—do you mean for that to sound rude?" And you're like, "Oh, goodness, no. That's not what I meant." I'm giving you the—the grace of a second chance rather than just deciding to—to take it personal. We do that a lot on text message—like somebody sends you a text, and all of a sudden you're feeling like, "Oh my gosh, this is the rudest thing ever," and then you find out they didn't give it with that kind of inflection or tone at all.
I was thinking of two things at the same time. I was thinking when we approach these difficult conversations with difficult people, is there a certain priming that we need to do to ourselves to make sure that we're in the right frame of mind? Because even as a podcaster, I see huge variance in my ability to like speak and articulate myself based on things that happened in the last 24 hours. Yeah. So is there—do you ever think about like when you've got those big cases coming up, how to prime yourself to make sure that your brain—your mouth—everything is working in unison and you feel like emotionally ready for that conversation?
Yes. So one—I—I do—one is—I—let's put it in terms of work and home because everybody listening right now—us included—we have a—a work life and then we have a home life, and sometimes it's really easy to switch those up—is never allow myself to be put in a conversation when I'm not ready. Especially important conversations—like you don't want to wait until you have 10% of your battery left for 100% of a conversation. It's just not going to go well when you wait till you finally put the kids to bed and you're both drained and exhausted, or you've had a really hard, stressful day and you're mad—and like that's the time when it's right before bed that you're going to decide to have the most important conversation between you two—it's never going to go well—like because you're aggravated, you're agitated, you're probably hungry. And so you—you don't set yourself up for failure. And that would be—don't have a conversation when you're not ready. Ways to—and this goes same for your triggers—is part of that self-awareness is saying that out loud—meaning I'm going to begin my sentence with—"I can tell—I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation"—or you say something that's triggering to me—"I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell that's upsetting me." Like when you say it out loud—when you claim it—you control it—rather than me starting to act defensively and being defensive and saying defensive things. I say, "I can tell I'm getting defensive"—like that—now I've said it out loud of that feeling—I'm not becoming the feeling—I've said it—and so there's a big—big difference in how—when you're in those difficult conversations—when you want to prepare yourself—you find ways to—one—have self-awareness of—"I can tell when I'm—I'm ready—when I'm not ready." Second of all is—if you know your triggers and you know what's going to upset you, you try and like curb that as best you can. When you're—when you're not in the fight or flight—you're not going to put yourself in the bad position. So that—that would be the biggest takeaway is—don't you put—don't put yourself in position to fail.
And I've also heard you say that when um you're being disrespected—I mean, this was the first of the three points you said a second ago—is to create that silence again.
Uhuh.
Why is—why does that matter? What you mean by that?
Yeah. So pauses—though they are the absence of words—they're not the absence of communication—meaning there's a difference in pauses between somebody saying, "I love you," and a really long pause before somebody says, "I love you, too," or somebody—your girlfriend asked, "Where were you last night?" And you take one second to respond instead of seven seconds to respond—they each say different things. So pauses are wonderful at getting the other person and yourself to fill in blanks. And when you're dealing with people who are, let's say, toxic or ugly or just not being nice, they will fill in that silence for you, and it—it does two—it does two things: it allows you with the breath and the pause to make sure you keep the analytical side pushing the emotion down—you're not getting flooded. Next, it's also doing the same thing for them. When I add silence, I'm making you almost repeat your words back in your head. Often you've been in those arguments where somebody already apologizes for what they said without you having to say anything. You've seen it, too—on a text—somebody says something ugly in a text, and you don't respond for a few hours—most often they will reply back—at least in my world—they say like, "I shouldn't have said that," or they'll try and reframe it, or they'll edit the text. You now have the benefit of uh hindsight—"Oh, that didn't—that didn't sound good"—or they'll twist their words again to—to fix it. So like, for example, I see this a lot with liars—people who—who lie on the stand and in litigation—you always have people lie—even in deposition—it's just part of it—you don't really get surprised by it—but silence is the number one like killer of liars because they have conversations in their head for you. So if you're going to tell me a lie, for example, and instead of me going, "That's not true—that's not true," and then you're going to—it's like you like that—okay, good—they're engaged now—I can start to manipulate the narrative—and you'll tell a lie, and then it forces me to try and fix it—"No, no, no. That's not true. Remember you did this, and you did this," and you're trying to get around them—that's exactly what the liar is wanting—the more engaged, the more conversation, the more believable it feels to you. So then you start to doubt yourself—"Oh, maybe they did—" Silence—like—just destroys them. So if you were to tell me a lie and I waited five to seven seconds and I repeated the question to you—I—I repeated your answer—let's say I know that you were at the store last night, and you're trying to lie to me and say, "No, I was home last night," and let's say I think you weren't up to no good at the store, and you go—"Uh—just say, Jefferson, I was at the store last night. I was—I was at the store last night—7-Eleven—at the store last night at the [Music] 7-Eleven."
Yeah.
I'm going to come back to—to this conversation in a bit, right? So all of a sudden the liar is like, "Oh, no—no—no—don't—don't do that—don't do that—don't do that"—like—"Oh, now you're—now you're thinking about it—now you're thinking about it"—like—"You know I was at the strip club."
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like—"I—I know you weren't—where—where you say—" So if you can say—you add in time—like—"I want to—I'll come back to this conversation"—or if I were to say, "Something feels off"—they don't like that—the liars don't like that at all because they want you engaged—they want more conversation. So when you slow it down and you go—"It's not even saying I don't believe you"—don't say that—that's—that's getting them—that's more engaged in conversation. But when you slow it down and get quieter—"I'm thinking—I'm just thinking"—liars will start to have the conversation in their head with you. They'll start to say things like—"I mean—what—what do you—" Let's put myself in your position. If you said you're at the store and I didn't really believe you, you'd be like—"I mean, where—where do you think I was? I mean, why—why would I be there?" Like they start to try and get into your head so that they can fix it—I'll try to twist the narrative to the place to pieces in a way of—they're not going to fill in every piece of the puzzle—the jigsaw puzzle—but just enough—hopefully you get the rest of the picture. But silence—pauses—that's where your real power is because they can't do anything with it, and it shows that you're the one in control, and they're the ones that are not.
And I guess you—if you're lying in that context, you want certainty that the other person believes you. So the issue with the big pause you gave is—if I was at the strip club last night—I now don't have certainty that you believe what I'm saying. So I need to like keep going until I can convince you yes that I was at, you know, the 7-Eleven. So I—now I need to push back on you and say, "What—what do you mean? Exactly? Why—why are you asking this?"
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Why are you asking me this?
Yeah, yeah. You're wanting more—give me—give me a conversation. We need conversation. I need it now, 'cause the uncertainty is not good to deal with.
No. Oh, no. They get in their head about it. But it's this—that same concept we talked about of people who tell the truth—they don't—they have all the patience in the world. If I—if you really were at the store and I was like, "I—I need to think about this for a minute," you'd be like, "Okay, you know"—it wouldn't bother you because the—those that have told the truth—they have—they have nothing to hide. If you need to think on it—"Something feels off"—okay, well, I'm—I'm here to talk about it. But that's—that's where I was. And you do know—you know that like regardless if they think about it or regardless of whatever they do next—I know where I was.
So you're only going to uncover evidence that I was at the 7-Eleven last night.
That's exactly right. You're going to look at my bank statements; you're going to see I was at the 7-Eleven last night. So there's a certain confidence that comes with that where you don't need to prove yourself.
Yeah. It's a relief. It's a confidence of going—"No, I know—I know exactly where I am." Is that—that in her confidence we talked about the very beginning, but the people who don't tell the truth—oh, I mean, I—I can—if I had a dollar for every time I've seen it or I've asked somebody the question back—they said—"Usually it's texting while they drive—"—"I never text—I never text when I drive." Let's say I asked somebody—you asked me the question, you know—here, we'll run it through. So ask me the question—"Were you texting while you were driving that day?"—"Were you texting while you were driving that day?"—"No. I never text—never text when I drive." Now notice I said a big word—I said "never." "Never" is an extreme. Extremes are a dead giveaway that they're usually not telling the truth. Everybody texts when they drive at some point in time—even in your car—"Never" and "always"—or "never"—it's always or never true. So that's a big one. Second of all, I answered really quickly; I didn't breathe or really think about it and try and actually show you that I was trying to remember in time—give you a really immediate response. So uh—um—what you're going to do—we're going to replay it again. I'm going to say the same exact thing, and I'm going to ask you to give me about five seconds of time, and then I want you to repeat what I said slower.
Cool.
So ask me if I was—if I was—texting while I was driving that day—"Were you texting while you were driving that day?"—"No—no—never—I—I never text when I drive."—"You never text when you drive?" So even that—I didn't—I didn't even like that. So what they'll—
Do most often is they'll even go well. I mean, I mean, I mean, sometimes I do because now they you just hinge on that word never. Yeah, so now they know, oh, that's a risk word, and they'll kind of come out of it and go, I mean, I mean, sometimes I do. I mean, maybe, but, but, but hardly hardly ever. Hardly ever.
When that happens, what you typically want to do is give them an out. Now they've they've put themselves into a corner, and now they're looking for an out. And a way to do that is go, "If you were texting, it's it's okay." Are we recording? 87% of people don't subscribe on the Clips Channel. Yeah. Taking Liberties, what just coming for free and then bouncing? What 87%? 90% of people on the Clips Channel don't subscribe, what it says here. So I've been doing all this for free. You've been consuming all these clips for--Listen, can we--we'll make a deal. Um, I'm really going to make these clips amazing, and you're in the Clips algorithm on our show, so can I ask a favor, please? Can you hit the Subscribe button if you've watched more than one before? How how about that? If you've watched more than one--first one free, buy one get one free. The second one, I'm going to have to ask you to subscribe. If this is the first time you've seen a clip on this channel, move along; you don't need to subscribe. But if you've seen one before, please do me a favor, help a guy out, hit the Subscribe button. Thank you so much.