Transcription
Recently, Ryan from needgod.net debated Trent Horn and if a Christian can lose their salvation. And you can't make this stuff up. Just watch this.
>> Things if they trust in Christ, God will save them. But God is God has given them eternal life, but he'll also discipline them for their sin, too, if he wants to.
>> Okay, I'll just modify the hypothetical just a little bit. They genuinely trust in Christ for salvation. Uh, you know, once a year when they drive by the bicyclist, they they lose their patience. Then they swerve their car over. They knock the guy over and a lot of those bicyclists get killed. So, you know, they've over the course of their life, they've killed maybe like a dozen bicyclists, but they genuinely trust in Christ and they desire salvation and they give in in this moment of impatience, but instead of yelling, they just turn the wheel a little bit, but they genuinely trust in Christ for their salvation, saying, you know, hey, I'm not perfect, but I trust in you. Will that person go to heaven?
>> If they are genuinely trusting in Christ, if they're one of his sheep, Jesus says that they have eternal life. And so I trust the words of Jesus. But again, he will discipline them if he wants to for that sin and grow them in holiness.
>> Okay? So serial killers will go to heaven, but uh they'll just be they'll just get a little little discipline beforehand.
>> Well, because heaven's not for good people. It is for forgiven people. Even the Apostle Paul was a murderer. David was a murderer and an adulterer. And yet he had eternal life.
>> Did apostle Paul murder anyone after his conversion?
>> No, we don't have any record of him ever doing that.
>> Okay. Uh but so you're saying someone who after they become a Christian, if they genuinely trust in Christ, even if they murder a dozen people, as long as they continue to trust in Christ, they could continue this pattern, they'll go to heaven. But you might be this hypothetical may be something that will never actually happen in the life of a true believer. I don't know because this is not a hypothetical scripture actually gives. So all I'm saying if someone's trusting Christ, they are saved. So any extra things you add on, if they meet the condition of trusting in Christ, they are saved. But therefore, what flows from that is obedience. They seek to be obedient. Um, from that point on,
>> okay, there are uh not even just hypothetical. I'm not even talking about Sophie Rain, the example I gave before. There are people who claim to be true Christians. Okay? They claim to trust in Christ and they think that even if it's sinful, it's not even that bad. They post bikini pictures online. Not even nudity. They post bikini pictures online for guys to look at. They make money on. But they say, "I'm a Christian. I trust in Jesus for my salvation. I'm not perfect, but you know, maybe this isn't the greatest thing, but there's people who do way worse and they'll be saved." They genuinely trust in Christ and they post bikini pictures on Only Fans. Uh, can they still go to heaven and they can they habitually and continually do this? So again, not a hypothetical that the Bible gives us. But I think we do see in a biblical example with Peter where he has his trust in Christ and yet he does such a terrible thing of denying Christ three times and yet the Lord did not abandon him. The Lord with his roden staff brought him back. And so I would say that the Lord will discipline those that he loves. Even a person in that scenario.
>> Did Peter continually deny Christ after Jesus's resurrection and make money off of it? Well, we do see that he denied it not just once, but it was multiple times. But then, yeah, as I said, I think a Christian has a change of heart. We have a love for the Lord. And if because we have a love for the Lord, it motivates us to be obedient and God grows us. I don't think this is not some sort of thing we just live any way you want. No, how we want to live is different. As Christians, we want to be holy and sanctified.
>> Okay. But you're saying as long as someone, your position is this, as long as someone trusts in Christ for his salvation, there is no sin he commits, either gravity or number of sins that would prevent him from entering heaven. That's your position. Correct.
>> I'd say a true believer may fall radically, but they'll never fall finally or totally because the Holy Spirit who dwells within them is going to discipline them, bring them to repentance. Exactly what like what God did with David when he committed adultery?
>> No, that's not the that's not the question I asked. So setting aside the sin of apostasy, your position is if someone trusts in Christ for their salvation, there is no number or kind of sins that would prevent them from being saved except for apostasy.
>> Right? If somebody is trusting in Jesus, they will be saved as Christ said and therefore God will grow them and that you'll see them.
>> All right? So, sorry if that was a little hard to watch, but so to Ryan's point, I want to say this. The predestined are certainly predestined. So, God already knows from all of eternity who's going to be saved and who is not going to be saved. And so, if you consider the sheep in the hand of the Lord, you consider the people who are the believers in Christ. From the perspective of God, the predestined are certain because God already for knows them and nobody can take them from the hand of the Lord. However, from our perspective, our salvation can be lost and we don't know if we're going to be saved or not. So, whenever Ryan is talking about how those who God chooses to save are infallibly saved, yes, that's exactly what St. Thomas teaches when he's talking about predestination. God knows exactly who is going to be predestined, who's going to make it to heaven. He knows who the elect are. He's the one that chose them. And he knows exactly how they're going to get there and that they're going to get there. So there's there's no contradiction there in saying that the predestined are certain. However, however, and this is the point, if you accept what Ryan is saying, then presumption is never a sin. This is what the Bible says about presumption. This is 1st Samuel 15:23, the English Standard Version. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he also has rejected you from being king. So the Bible here and elsewhere talks about this sin of presumption. Well, according to Ryan, all you have to do is trust in Christ. But the sin of presumption is where you trust in Christ in a disordered way. You trust that God is going to save you even though you're not doing what you're supposed to to be saved. The sin of presumption. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines it. Presumption is when man presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy hoping to attain obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit. So if you follow Ryan's argumentation then the sin of presumption isn't a sin and you should trust in Christ as much as possible regardless of if it's reasonable or not. And if you do sin rather than converting, becoming holy, repenting and then turning to Christ in that way. No, no, no. You don't have to do that. You just believe in Christ and then you are saved. This is the sin of presumption. This is exactly what Ryan's ideology will lead you into. And this is why we must reject it as Christians, not just as Catholics. Look, if you're a Protestant, you're watching this, leave a comment letting me know who you think won the debate or which side you land on. This is not a Catholic view that Ryan's holding. This is not a Protestant view that Ryan's holding. This is a modern evangelical view that didn't exist for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Trent Horn asked him, "Can you name one person? Can you even name one person that you've heard about or read about who held this position for the first 1500 years of Christianity? Ryan can't do it because this is a novel teaching. If the apostles had taught it, we would find it somewhere reflected in the first 500 years of Christianity. But not a single author for the first 5, 10, 15 centuries of Christianity holds this view. And look, this is important too because this way of thinking is going to damn souls. It's that simple. This needs to be called out directly and abrasively. Because if you believe, you truly believe, I can be a sinner yet saved. I can do whatever I want, but as long as I have this one thing where I trust in Christ, he can't damn me. What are you going to do? Well, if you're like most people, you're ruled by your passions. You're going to commit sins of fornication, sins of lust, sins of whatever you want, sins of the flesh, because God can't damn me. I believe in him. That is where this leads. Luther was neurotic. Luther had a mental illness. And the way that he rectified that was by trying to place the weight of his salvation completely off of him and onto Christ. But that's not the way Christ intended for it to be. Christ wants to save you with you. St. Augustine says, "The God who created you without you will not save you without you." We must cooperate with his will. Which is why in John's gospel, Jesus says very clearly, "He who obeys is saved. He who disobeys is not saved. This is why St. Paul says, "Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." This is why Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father." God made us free. And he saves us through our free will, not in spite of it. God made us free. And he made us to save us not just with an intellectual ascent to something but a full trust in Christ that revolutionizes our lives. If we truly believe what Ryan says, then repentance is not necessary for salvation. Only belief is. But what does the gospel say over and over again? Repent and believe. Repent every one of you. You must have a change of heart where you don't do those things anymore that you did before. And to say that it's impossible for someone who is believing in Christ at this present moment not to fall is completely against what St. Paul says. He says in Galatians, they have fallen from grace. Meaning what? They had grace and they fell from it. The parable in Matthew 19, the rich man forgives his servant. Forgives him. He's forgiven. But then later sees that his servant is treating someone else badly and revokes that forgiveness and throws him in prison. John 15, the vine, there's a branch that's in the branch, right? There's a branch that's in the vine. It's right there. It gets cut off and thrown away because it does not bear fruit. Listen, in order to be saved, you must repent and believe in the gospel. Just believing what Jesus said is not enough. Believing that Jesus is going to save you no matter what you do is the sin of presumption which is condemned in the Bible. It's that simple. I commend Trent Horn for taking on this debate. And if you want to see why Catholics believed in the pope, then click on this video next. God bless.