Are Muslims Really having Dreams of Jesus? | On @SeanMcDowell with Tom Doyle

All right. Well, here we are. We're going to do another reaction video, and, uh, this time we're going to be interacting with, uh, some clips from an interview that Dr. Sean McDow did with, uh, Tom Doyle on the topic of Muslims having dreams about Jesus. And actually, I think this is a really relevant, uh, topic for us to be talking about on this channel because, uh, obviously, on this channel, we're doing a lot of interaction on, um, Muslim topics, about Islam and Christianity, and often Christians talk about this topic.

Honestly, the first thing that I often hear from Christians when I talk about ministry to Muslims or just trying to learn how to reach Muslims and share that with people in the Christian world, in the church, in churches, and talking to Christians who really don't know much of anything about it. Uh, the first thing they bring up is dreams. "Oh, I heard that, uh, Muslims are having dreams of Jesus, and there's this whole wave of people coming to converting out of Islam into Christianity because they're having dreams." So, uh, this is just a really kind of a hot topic in Christian circles, and frankly, uh, we're sort of disappointed that it is. So, uh, we're coming into this not really, um, agreeing with the emphasis that should be there. Uh, but we want to give our opinion on it and interact with the things that are shared and try to give some, like, thoughtful reflection on it, uh, interacting with what both what Tom says and what Sean says. So, why don't we dive into the first clip here?

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And again, right off the bat, I started hearing about Muslims having dreams, which I didn't even know what I thought about that, but that became a recurring theme. And I think it just, this is the time. This is the great awakening for Muslims right now. They're having dreams. They're having visions. Christians are praying for them, and they're getting healed. Doesn't always happen. But you can imagine praying to to Allah, nothing's happening, and then a Christian prays for them, and they're sick or they need a job, and it happens. And so these are great days, despite what you see on TV with all the terrorism, and that's real. Um, God's moving among the Muslims. You know, it's interesting. Yes. Yesterday, Tom, I was meeting with an expert in Islam, a Christian from a. So, yeah, I, I just wanna, right off the bat, because there's going to be a lot of things even in these kind of segments that we've clicked out that we need to kind of react to, otherwise I'm going to lose my thought on what to say. Uh, I just think that I, I don't, I don't really trust it when Christians say these things anymore because I hear this kind of stuff. I don't mean necessarily hear it to the same extent or emphasis in other circles, but for him to claim that, you know, this, like praying, okay, so praying to. Changing up the screen a little. Yeah. Okay. Come back. So, it's not just me. Okay. So, uh, when people are praying, uh, to, let's say, another god or another, you know, in another religious context, um, I don't, I don't think that they're never going to have, let's say, in, you know, quote unquote, having their answered prayer, their their prayer answered, excuse me. Um, uh, obviously people do have spiritual experiences, and people do talk about things that they think that, uh, whether that has actually been, let's say, answered by an intelligent divine being, uh, or, uh, they just think that it has. Uh, okay, well, I'm not saying one way or another, and I'm not ex automatically excluding that it could happen. So, I think just the way that he's talking about it, almost like presupposes that Muslims don't have that experience of answered prayer. Like, why would you say that? If, if you talk to any Muslims, definitely they talk about experiences of their prayers being answered. So, I just find it, I don't know. What do you think, Alex? Um, I talked to Ahadi or how Muslims say Kadani, right? And they, well, there's a different religion for the Sunnis. Yeah. And they, like, I remember like years ago, we, we chatted about, and they, they brought up this idea of dreamer, and he said, "All of us had dreams at certain times." And it's either, um, uh, but not of Jesus, pointing to, no, definitely not Muhammad or, uh, the Nagula Ahmed, uh, anything like that. So, like, a Sunni became Ahmadiyya because of the dreams, right? And they asked me if, if I had a dream like that kind of sort. I said, "No." And they just looked at me and said, "You should ask God for that." So, like, "Oh, yeah. Well, whatever." I didn't have a dream. So, well, I, I have dreams, but I, I won't consider them to be divinely inspired, right? But they, they all have that. That's what they told me. So, hey. Yeah. And I wouldn't say that God doesn't do that ever. Like, I think he does. But again, it's kind of like what any. Let's save that for reacting to later things. Okay. That's kind of interesting. Country in the Middle East who was just doing some recording for us at at Biola. We got lunch. We're catching up. I said, "Hey, I'm interviewing this guy Tom tomorrow on Dreams and Visions." I said, "Do you encounter this?" And he goes, "You know," he goes, "just not long ago." And he mentions another country in the Middle East. I, I had a cab driver who was a Muslim. And I asked him when he, you know, when he became a Muslim, and he said, "Well, I was born a Muslim." He goes, "Can I tell you when I became a Christian?" And he tells the guy, and he says, "Well, tell me a little bit more." And he goes, "You know, this can't be a a surprise encounter because just a couple weeks ago, I had a dream of a man in white." And he started telling me things I hadn't heard before, just yesterday. This guy's never shared this publicly as far as I know. I'm just hearing this over and over again. So, you had that experience in the '90s. You wrote your book in 2012. Again, it's called Dreams and Visions. Is Jesus Awakening the Muslim World? What happened between that experience in the '90s and publishing this book? Yeah. Well, in 2001, God called us out of the pastor. I had been a pastor almost 20 years. God called us to be missionaries in the Middle East. And so we had a love for all of them, Sean. So, we, we couldn't stay like in Israel or Jordan. That would cut us off from different countries. So, we would go back and forth, and we had national leaders, and it grew to about 10 countries. Along the way, we're hearing these stories all the time about Muslims having dreams about Jesus. So, from the start, I just want to clear it up. Nobody has a dream as a Muslim and wham, wakes up and they're a Christian. You know, it doesn't happen. They have a dream, rocks their world. It's high definition. They can't shake it. And then they start seeking. They find a Bible. They listen to radio, whatever. They, they find someone, a Christian, to explain it to them, and there they go. That's so, it's just initial. But, but these are people's, Sean, many of them that had their first dream 30, 40 years ago, and they remember it in detail. I can't, I can't remember, I can't give you the details of the dream I had last week. But so this is so much from God, and so I've had to think through all of that. What, why is God using that? Possibly because Islam was birthed with a dream. Muhammad went into a cave and he had a dream.

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Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, that far-fetched. I. So, it's interesting. The, there is a version of the account that is as a dream, but it's not the primary one. That's not the one that almost any Muslim knows about, right? I think it's in Al-Bukhari has an account of it. So, I remember when we were talking to our friend, uh, he was telling us, he's a student at an Islamic, yeah. And he was saying that they were reading, they were reading the account of it, and like everybody in the class, this is like Islamic seminary, right? In the West, that, you know, they didn't notice that it was set in a dream. Oh, okay. And he pointed it out, and they're like, "No, no, no." And then they had to go back and reread it again because they're so used to the the normal account in Bukhari. Uh, and I don't know if it's, uh, I'd have to check, but I think I too, that is not in a dream because they're just used to Muhammad goes into the cave of Hira and encounters the angel Gabriel, usually not named in the actual narration of it, but traditionally understood to be Gabriel, right? Um, and that's not set in a dream, except I think in this one, one version of it. So, um, I wouldn't, I would never assume that Muslims are going to like, if I was to tell, "Oh, this is the story of the start of Islam is that when he went, Muhammad had a dream in a cave." Like, no. But almost, I think any Muslim you're going to talk to could would be stopping you and correcting you, saying, "That's not what happened. It wasn't a dream." Yeah. Right. Of course. So, that, why? Yeah. Very strange that he said that. Very strange. Yeah. Okay, let's move on. Uh, that Gabriel, Gabriel, the angel came to him. And so even in Ramadan, the last week of Ramadan, there's one night called the Night of Power, the Night of Destiny. And Muslims cry out, "God, would you make yourself real to me? Come to me in a dream, in a vision." And you know what? Jesus accommodates that request. And that is the number one day of the year that Muslims have dreams or visions about Jesus on the Night of the Night. So, is that to say then that all those Muslims, if they're praying, I don't know if they actually do that. Maybe they do. But if they're, like, I can't say to that, but let's assume he's correct on that, that they're lots of Muslims think that they should pray for dreams. Uh, I was on Leakar, he said, right? So, um, all right. So, let's say they're doing that. Does that mean, uh, all of them are getting dreams of Jesus? Like, obviously not. Um, and let's say lots of them aren't getting any dream, but the ones that are getting other dreams that are consistent with Islamic ideas. I mean, what does that mean? Does that mean it cancels out the Jesus ones? Or I mean, are we supposed to say, uh, the Jesus ones that are consistent with a Christian understanding? Uh, those ones should trump the other ones because why? Like, you know, obviously I think that they would, but I already think that Christianity is true. So, why, like, it's not helpful to really be talking about it. Maybe it convinces that individual person who had the dream, but it's again, it's kind of like, I don't know if that, that should be enough for them anyway. Even, even though I might agree that, yes, it's from God, sent the dream, but I don't know. What do you think? Uh, he mentioned that, um, um, uh, people having dreams, but they're not becoming Christians right away, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, he said it. So, and he said 40 years later, they still remember the dream. But I guess 40 years later, they're still Muslims. So, yeah, this, so the dream wasn't enough. And, and I agree, actually. Like, if, let's say that somebody was given, like, a legit dream from God, um, putting aside the kind of the question about how do we know, like, how we, how do we assess it? Let's say it was, but, uh, I, I would still generally say, and, and I talked to people who have, um, had these kinds of experiences, both, like, Muslims who've had dreams, but also, uh, I've met a lot of New Agers who've had dreams of Jesus, and I'm questioning with them, like, "I don't know, is this a, is this a demonic counterfeit where an evil spirit masquerading as Jesus?" But sometimes it is. So, there's that question. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Uh, I heard for the Muslims, it's, it's in a Sunnah, uh, that Muhammad said, "If I will come in dreams to you, I'll, I'll be genuinely myself." But everybody else could be it's questionable because they could be, you know, evil spirits pretending to be any other prophet. But if I come in the vision to you, that's it's. I think that's a really dumb idea. But it's a very Muhammad himself, very convenient if it's just this one type of type of person. Yeah. Satan can't make himself. He can look. He can make himself look like everybody else, but the one person, right? And why is, why Muhammad and not the other prophets? I mean, shouldn't it apply to all the prophets, or even like the top dog prophets? Like, there's like, what, five of them? Can it be all of those? Well, it just happens to be Muhammad. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think that's just a really silly thing, but, uh, yeah, I mean, there's. So, I'm just saying that obviously from a biblical perspective, we're going to say that there can be counterfeits too, and counterfeits of Jesus. Um, and I, I was just also reminded of this passage in Romans 10, uh, starting in verse 14. How, but how are they to call on him, meaning on God, in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? Yeah, dreams. It's not dreams. Now, a dream, I'm fine with to say, like, to be open to this possibility that God can use a dream as a step in a direction. And as he said, generally, it leads to people talking to a Christian, reading a Bible, being exposed to a ministry like on a radio. Yeah. And that's fine. It's not the dream that should be converting anybody. It's the word of God. It's the, the Bible, ultimately. Whether that's communicated through a sermon, through reading a Bible, through hearing it an audio, and so forth, right? Talking to a Christian who knows it. We can go back. Yeah. Destiny. When they cry out to God, "Lord, show yourself to me." Jesus comes to them. Actually, pause because like, that doesn't always happen. I, I'm sure that there are Christians who have in their story, or even non-Christians who could say, like, "Look, I cried out to Jesus, nothing happened." Yeah. Right. Um, now, maybe Christians have this idea, well, if they did it and they did it really sincerely, then Jesus would show up. Look, people pray for healing, and they don't get healing. They, they were really sincere, and really wanted it, and they were, you know, even really trusting, really, really, really believing, but it doesn't happen. So, you know, we can't, we can't strong-arm God and control how he's going to act. So, yeah, anyway. Can keep going. Okay, let's have a second segment. They are interested. See, they believe Jesus is a prophet. They just don't believe he's Messiah. But this can be a a nap. Yeah. Incorrect. So, I don't know how somebody can make an error like that if you've been involved in ministry to Muslims for any length of time. You can't. Of course, they believe he's the prophet and Messiah. Yeah. He's called in the Quran. He's probably using the Christian idea of Messiah. Uh, yeah. But you, but, but still, you don't see. I know. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I, I agree. He probably is meaning like the full-fledged Christian con. The Islamic concept is like empty. Doesn't mean anything. But, uh, but you don't say he doesn't have the title because he does have the title. And if you talk to Muslims, like, and actually try to reason with them, you're going to be talking about that point at some point. Yeah. Okay. True bridge for them to see, okay, this guy's pretty powerful. So, anyway, we started collecting them. We just had them handwritten, and we started t. So, he starts handwriting, I mean, collecting the dreams. Yeah. Talk to people, right? And, but I still have an impression those people are still Muslims, but they give them, uh, the explanation of the dream, or I mean, not explanation rather than description of the dreams, right? Or it's, or he's talking about the people who convert to Christianity, and they all say about dreams, like one of the stepping. Yeah. I, I get the sense he's just talking about people who are who are now Christians from a Muslim background who had dreams. Yeah. All right, let's move on. Third segment. Flip the script a little bit. Either, or that maybe when you're pausing it and try to do it when it's not all white. Yeah. Okay. Go on. Come visit my church, give you a tour, meet my pastor, take you to maybe some fish tacos or something because I live in Southern Orange County, not far from the beach. And then you could ask me some questions, uh, that a Muslim would like to ask a Christian. Well, when I first interviewed him, one of my questions was, I said, "If you could ask a Christian anything, what would it be?" And I had no idea what he was going to say. And one of the things that he said was, "If Jesus appeared to you and told you to follow Islam, would you do it?" Now, I took that as him saying, "This is probably happening a lot, and would I be obedient to kind of an authoritative vision like this?" When I talked to him later, that actually wasn't his point. And he was just like, "I just would want to know if you would submit to a claim like this," which makes perfect sense within the mindset of a Muslim. But it got me thinking, Tom. I was like, "I wonder how many people there are on the reverse side who say Jesus showed up to me and told me to follow Muhammad and become a Muslim." And I found at least a handful of stories like this. Not as many, but I found some on Instagram and YouTube and some other settings. Do you hear these kinds of stories, and how would you respond to those testimonies? Yeah, I was taking a cab from Jerusalem to Bethlehem one day. So, it had to be a Palestinian driver that, you know, had Israeli citizenship and could get into Bethlehem through the checkpoint. And I started sharing with him, and, uh, so it's Abdullah, and I'm telling him about Jesus dreams, and I'm talking to him about Jesus. And he said, "Oh, I had a Jesus dream." I said, "You did?" He goes, "Yeah." Mhm. Yeah. I was walking with Jesus, and all he was talking to me. It's very nice. It's very pleasant. I said, "Wow, that's great." He goes, "Yeah." And then, um, Jesus put his arm out, and Muhammad was standing next to him. And Jesus put his arm around Muhammad and said, "This is the latest prophet. Follow him." Wow. I said, "Really?" So, how, how many times have we been in places like when I was in Baghdad, Iraq, near the Green Zone, horrific dreams? I mean, the devil can do that. We know that. And so, these are demonic dreams that they're having. That is not the truth. And that's not what the gospel says. But there are times, I mean, Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So, we do see it. Not as a lot, not as much as we thought we would, but we do see that. We, we meet people that have that experience. No. So, it is part of the response that the dream itself is not authoritative and doesn't prove anything, but it's more of an attention getter, and it's more of somebody that stops them in their tracks and makes them ask questions and seek spiritually. Is that how you interpret these dreams as a whole? AB: Absolutely. It's they're high definition. They cannot forget them. They cannot. And I, and I think about this, and then, you know, they meet a believer that explains it to them. I, I think of this verse. This is written to Israel, but could this be a double fulfillment? Isaiah 65:1. "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me. I was found by those who did not seek me." So, all of these Muslims that we talk to say, "I wasn't seeking Jesus, you know, he just appeared. He just came to me." And it caught my interest, and I started reading things. I started finding a Bible. I mean, so many of them, we know, would find a Bible and hide it under their mattress, and then when when the husband goes to sleep or the wife goes to sleep, pull it out and start reading. And, you know, you think about, I know you teach apologetics, you've read the Quran, I've read the Quran. You read that, and then you read the Bible, and this is just for a Muslim, the shock level must be off the charts. The. Okay, let's, let's leave something so it doesn't just look white while we're talking. Okay. That's good. So, there's a number of thoughts. So, first thing is, he mentioned Isaiah 65:1, and I was, I was just looking that up before, and, um, I think generally it's taken to be referring to like those who don't, who haven't been seeking, that it's referring to the Gentiles. So, it's, it's not, it's not about not having dreams or anything like that. And he's talking about, well, maybe this is a double fulfillment, as if it's like fulfilled, I guess, maybe in the Gentiles, but then also, like, as if Isaiah has that in view, right? No. So, I think that's kind of, uh, he's stretching it way too much to support his own idea, um, not based on the context. But, uh, there were, there were two things I was thinking about. So, one is, actually, I, I thought about this later on, but not when I was first watching this interview, but I actually know a Muslim guy who told me a dream of Jesus that was like the one he said, uh, where he talked about the Muslim, the Palestinian guy saying that the Jesus appeared and he like put his arm around Muhammad in the dream and said, you know, "Hey, this is the guy to follow." However, he said it. I basically, a similar kind of dream that another Muslim guy met up for coffee, and he told me he had this dream many years ago, and it basically kept him on track with being a Muslim. And I think he counts it as a very significant event in his life, in his spiritual journey. And, you know, it was basically, I don't remember all the details of it, but it was basically he was sort of like, there were two men in the dream. The first man, and he gave a physical description of the color of his hair and stuff, which, funny enough, I looked up later in the Hadith, because I know the Hadith describes, describes the color of the hair and stuff, and it didn't match the dream. But anyway, that's besides the, uh, is that, uh, he, this, so this was, he was basically a man in, I think, in Israel, uh, and, and that he was pointing to another man in Saudi Arabia, who was obviously the first man, at Jesus pointing to Muhammad, and essentially saying, like, "Follow him. He's like, he's after me." So, yeah, I mean, I guess that means we should all become Muslims, right? Because the Palestinian guy had a dream. This other, I think he's Pakistani Muslim guy I met had a dream of Jesus pointing to Muhammad. Like, again, it's like, so doesn't this just prove this should just prove to us that this stuff doesn't really matter, uh, or like, from a point of view of trying to reach Muslims, to share argumentation or try to persuade them in a, in a, not like by appealing to emotions, but actually trying to reason with people, um, because we care about truth. You know, how am I going to communicate truth by appealing to some subjective experience I had or somebody else had? Exactly. Especially when they have there are subjective experiences that cancel it out. Right. Yeah. So, it's all, um, subjective. Yeah. All the dreams are subjective. Like, and now he said, "Oh, that's, like, demonic appearance." Really? Can you prove it to a Muslim? So, now I need to mention this while I'm thinking of it. The other thing I want to mention was, uh, I was remembering a mutual friend of ours. I won't say his name, okay? He was a former Muslim, and he had, I think it was like, five significant dreams that were not all of Jesus, but like, he, that seemed pretty providential in the process of him leaving Islam and then becoming a Christian at like different points in that process. Um, and, you know, like some of them seemed to to be essentially communicating the Trinity, um, communicating danger about Islam, and, you know, ultimately pointed to Jesus in different ways. I don't know if any of them had Jesus. I, one of them had Jesus, but it wasn't like a, like in a literal way. It was more symbolic. So, anyway, they were, they were like, really quite striking when he told me. And I remember when he, uh, you know, I was see, I saw him, and he, he was visiting in the area, and then he, um, he went and he talked to, um, an Imam at a local masjid because we've been doing like some dialogue stuff with them. And, you know, they met, and the Imam invited to to chat with him. So, he told him some of his dreams in in that meeting. And he didn't go into the meeting. Like, I really, actually, really respect this guy because he says he's told me over over the years in his journey that he didn't want, he didn't ever want to believe because of dreams. Like, he had these dreams, but this was not like the basis for him believing. He needed to study the evidence, right? You know, studying both texts and the historical evidence, etc. So, that, like, I really respect that because it doesn't come down to. But, you know, it is kind of like it stood out to him in the process that he had these seemingly providential circumstances of dreams that seemed to kind of encourage him in his steps he took. So, he shared that with the Imam, and the Imam immediately said, "It was jinn, right?" So, like, for the Christians watching, don't understand this. Like, jinn is essentially, it's not the same concept, but it's essentially when they think of demons, they wouldn't use the word demon, but that the evil spirits would be certain certain jinn. So, that can come and possess people or influence people in their dreams, for sure. So, was it, like, really interesting because I, I remember talking to him after he had that meeting, and he told me what he said, and I'm like, I was actually surprised because I thought he would, like, at least, because with me, if somebody came and told me that, I wouldn't immediately say, "Oh, that's demons." Like, obviously, I would think it's demons. Yeah. But I would try to guide them in a process where they're like, like, not basing, not just giving them my opinion as if that's what is true, but helping them to try to think through it. Like, look at the different possibilities. What is the evidence for it one way or another? If you can, if there is evidence for it, does it fit with what the Quran says? What the Bible says? And, you know, etc. Like, again, it's going to be subjective. So, but still, are there ways that we can kind of provide some guards for trying to rationally process it? Um, and so I would have said, you know, like, well, like from a biblical perspective, this is what it could be. It could be from God. It could be, you know, pizza. Like, I don't know. Like, you're, like, you're just your subconscious, right? And it's just nothing. Or, uh, could be an evil spirit. Okay. Uh, those are the three things that I can think of, the possibilities. And I'm not going to tell you what it. I could tell you, like, "Okay, I think it probably from God because this seems to conform from with the scriptures, and I believe the scriptures are from God, the Bible." But, uh, for somebody who's in a transitional point, especially, I'm not just going to tell them it means this, and therefore this is right, and it can't be possibly anything else. Well, it could possibly be something else because I'm always open to truth. Like, maybe I'm okay. So, I want to be able that even though I don't have any doubt, I'm not like questioning that. But I want to be objective because I'm not, I'm not fallible. I'm fallible. So, I can make mistakes. So, why would I impose my own opinion? So, I was really surprised that the Imam told him, "Just, it's jinn, or it's from Shaitan." Right? So, there was no, like, trying to reason with him to try to consider it. I just think, like, uh, we would say as Christians, we would say pastorally, that's like a, wasn't a wise move. I think, like, to you should actually try to guide them and don't just impose it on them because obviously from his point of view, he's not going to receive his, his reaction that way. You should, if you gave a more reasonable reaction, like maybe you pay attention to him more. So, I wasn't surprised to hear if a person became a Muslim because of the dream, or a person became Christian because of the dream, and with, and without Quran reading the Quran or reading the the Bible. So, it, I think that's it seems like it seems like pretty crazy. Like, why, why would you? Yeah. And what percentage of the people actually will rely on the dreams without studying the the scripture in both camps? And biblically, it isn't, it isn't biblically supported to rely on it in that way. Yeah. Right. And I would say probably Islamically, it isn't either. Like, you should test it. So, yeah, it's kind of interesting to to realize, like, I've actually had that experience where heard a Muslim giving me a dream confirming Islam. I've heard, uh, an ex-Muslim, you know, and communicating that to Muslims, and how they react. Actually, also, I was talking to our mutual friend, seminary Muslim seminary friend, about jinn possession or and demonic possession and exorcism practices, like where you're, you know, you're trying to deliver somebody from the influence of an evil spirit, or, you know, in their point of view, there's going to be a jinn. Um, and, you know, talking about, you know, because Christians always say the name of Jesus is very effective in combating that, and I can attest to that from my own experience. Um, it's kind of interesting. I remember being early on as a Christian in my late teenage years when I became a Christian, talking to my to my mom, who's from a New Age background, and she would tell me, like, you know, she doesn't believe in the Bible or a biblical Jesus, and she'd say, "Oh, you know, like, when you meditate, like, it's good to say a prayer before you meditate, uh, because you can be more susceptible to, you know, different things in that state." And that, what she had heard was that it's really good to call on the name of Jesus, right? And I'm like, well, okay, that's obviously from a Christian point of view, I'm going to say, like, that's like amazing confirmation. But, you know, what about when people say that, you know, you could use some other name in another religion and it also is effective, right? Whether it's Buddha or it's. I don't think he told me it was Muhammad, but I think using certain, maybe, you know, they use certain verses from the Quran in the exorcism process from jinn possession. And so, I'm just like, both of us are, how would each of us look at the other person giving an account of effective deliverance from demonic or jinn possession, right? Oh, look, it's working with the Christians, and it's working with the Muslims. Okay. We don't, we are not appealing to like Jesus. We're appealing to Jesus as God. So, Muslims can't just say, "Oh, well, they're people of the book." Yeah. No, no, no. You're, we're for them, for you guys as Muslims, we're appealing to an idol. Okay. So, obviously, we don't see it that way, but that's how Islam sees it. So, you can't say us that would be equivalent to us talking about Hindus, uh, like a Hindu guru who delivered somebody from a possession from a spirit, appealing to, I don't know, Sai Baba or Krishna or whatever, right? Well, I think it's all that kind of, you know, dream contest. It sounds like my kung fu is better than your kung fu. I mean, really, that's how we can determine. So, so I'll tell you what I told him, kind of like how I would interpret it, because obviously I don't think that it's really from. I mean, okay, so I could say somebody who was sincerely wanting deliverance from an evil spirit, like a Muslim or even a non-Muslim, non-Christian, sincerely wanting wanting deliverance, and they don't really, they are don't, they genuinely don't know the true God, right? So, uh, I could say, well, God could have mercy and still deliver them. Yeah. Okay. Even though they're using means that are not consistent with what God has prescribed, God can still have mercy on them. That's one possibility. Another is it can be demonic deception, because, uh, a demon could, you know, let's say, like, let's say it's something other than a Muslim and a Christian thing. Like, let's say it's a Hindu thing that both of us, we like, both Muslims and Christians are going to condemn. Okay. We're going to say, okay, well, let's say the person was delivered from that evil spirit with a, a Krishna worshipper or whatever, right? Who delivered them. So, a, a pundit, a Hindu priest. So, uh, I would say, well, we're not talking about the same God. From a biblical perspective, those gods represent the demonic. Okay. That there are demons behind those deities. And, uh, obviously Muslims are not going to agree with it. Both of us could say the first explanation, that God could have mercy anyway and deliver them. But I, I think we could also both say that there could be something evil behind even the deliverance. Like, I would say, uh, from a biblical perspective, like Tom was talking about, Satan can masquerade as an angel of light, that he can pre- pretend or make himself appear like he is something benevolent or good that's there to help. And in so far as we rely on that, that person relies on that practice and looks at that practice or that person who delivered them, whether it's a Hindu priest or it's astrology or whatever it is that was in the process of helping them in life, a divining practice or somebody delivering them from an evil spirit, um, they can now look at that practice or that system of belief as being confirmed by this powerful demonstration of deliverance. So, a, an evil spirit who is whose, uh, motive is to deceive away from the truth and away from the true God and lead people into, uh, practices condemned by God, then they can actually get them trapped more into trusting in that system and those practices. Exactly. That demonstration. But I'm going to say, look, I can explain that for Muslim exorcism of jinn possession. And Muslims can look at what we're doing and they can say the same thing. Yeah. Okay. So, it's, they cancel each other out if all we're doing is looking at the experience. What we need is an objective standard that transcends it that we can look at, and that's going to be examining the evidences for the scriptures. So, yeah. Okay, we've gone on long enough with that, but let's go back to the. Yeah, I think just, I think the final thought I want to say is like, we, practical people, right? And we look to forward to persuade Muslims. And what do you think on account from one to 100, how persuasive that dream argument could be? Well, I think that's going to differ depending if we're talking about whether it's the person who had the dream. Okay. When we're talking about somebody who had a dream, even myself, like if I'm, if you're a non-Christian, I'm trying to persuade you and I tell you I had a dream. Mhm. That's different if you had the dream. So, let's say if you tell me about your dream and you try to persuade me, what percentage you might get? Like, I don't know how I know how to put it. I'm not good at putting numbers to things. Okay. But it's going to be really low, right? Yeah. So, if anything, so, but, but I think for somebody who has the experience themselves themselves, it, it is possible that they can. I do think that an experience could in a way be self-authenticating. The problem is though, you hear the stories of other people who think the same thing about their experiences that contradict yours. And again, you have to go to the Bible anyway. Like, if you're going to be more objective, and even beyond that, just about truth, you have to examine the evidence and look at more objective things to even evaluate the scriptures, which scriptures are right, etc., etc. He mentioned that it's just the beginning of the, it's, uh, catching the attention. That's well, technically, so much focus on it. Like, the focus should be on then the things, those other steps. Yeah. I mean, why, like, I can't control if somebody's going to have a dream. That's up to God. Yeah. Like, he did, I think he mentioned something about Christians praying for people that have dreams. It's just like, sure, you can do that, but like, that's like, okay, you're having your prayer, but what you're actually going to be focused on in life should actually be more sharing and reasoning with people. Especially if you're an evangelist or a missionary, right? So, you have to have something better to offer. Oh, yeah. Let's move on. We know this, like, with with Iranian Muslims, they, they are people of the heart. They're very much, uh, culture. They like art. They like music. If, if you want to share the gospel with them, you know, talk to them, but tell them to read the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5 through 7 just rocks their world. The way Jesus explained, "Love your enemy," not "tolerate your enemy," "love your enemy." They will come back with so many questions, it just speaks to their heart. So, um, that, that's really interesting. That was actually a question I was going to ask is when often times unbelievers are open to reading something. Of course, there's books like "More Than a Carpenter," which is just, you know, God used that in countries and people around the world, including the Middle East. Go to is like, first, just start with the scriptures before anything else, if you can, because the scriptures are the word of God, contain the word of God. Yeah. So, it sounds like rather than just saying, "Read John," or "Read Romans," you typically say, "Just start with the Sermon on the Mount." Number one, it's shorter, right? It's just like Matthew 5 through 7, if you read that one. Yeah. So, is that why you recommend there, or is it some of it sounds like it's some of the teaching within the Sermon on the Mount that can be compelling to a Muslim as well? Yeah, it seems to resonate with all Muslims, but whenever we share it with someone from Iran that speaks Farsi that has that nature, that just seems to, it's there's, it's poetic in many ways. There's so many, um, ways that Jesus communicates that just hits their heart. And so, we will always do that. And then, you know, we'll, like anybody else, tell them to read John. We have boxes of "More Than a Carpenter." Tell your dad. We Oh, you do that? Oh, yeah. Because then they will get into, well, the Quran says this, and and and we know Jesus didn't die on the cross. In fact, I was walking through Israel with Arthur Blessitt, carrying the cross, taking the cross into all the countries. Arthur Blessitt, if you know him, and he's been in every single country carrying the cross. And we were going through Jericho, and it's all Muslim, and they're just lining up, touching the cross. And a lot of people think Arthur Blessitt is that an act or whatever. He, I've never seen him miss a chance to share the gospel with someone. So, we, we went through Israel and went to Jericho, and everybody was coming up, touching the cross, asking us questions. These are veiled women. These are Muslims. But this one guy, I see him standing in his doorstep of his shop, and man, Sean, he looked like he had steam coming out of his ears already. He made a beeline for me and he said, "What's your name?" And I said, "It's Tom." He goes, "I'm Nimmer." He goes, "I got a question for you. I'll become a Christian if you can answer this." "If Jesus was God, why couldn't he get off that cross?" See, to them, they're thinking in terms of Muhammad. Well, if it's Muhammad, he would have his followers would have gotten him down, and he would have declared war or whatever. That's all they can think about. And I said, tried to cool it down. I said, "Oh, man, Nimmer, great question." And it's a pretty easy one, really, actually, when you think about it. And it's this: He didn't want to come down off the cross. He was up there to pay for my sins. I've done a lot of bad things in life. Jesus paid for my sins. He was the sacrifice. I'm sure you've done a few things wrong in your life. That's why he did it. He chose to stay there. Could he have gotten off it? In a minute, he could have, but he chose not to. He still didn't like it. You know, he, he went off in a huff. But that they just see someone like that who I would say was probably pro-Hamas radical. They can only see Jesus and Christianity through the light of Islam. Well, that's weakness. He, he was defeated. That wasn't a victory. And, and so, anyway, that's how they think. That's really interesting. And to me, the best answer is a subversion of power. John 2 and John 10. "I lay down my life." Yeah. "And I take it up again." That's right. "No one has authority over me." Is exactly what Jesus says in John 19 to Pilate. So, he could have, but he exercised the greatest act of power to willingly sacrifice himself for another. That takes power of a different kind to do that. Of course, that's that's just the, you know, the mystery, so to speak, of the cross that subverts the power of the world. But I love that. That's so, that's such a helpful way, uh, helpful way to look at it. You can have the first shot at it, though. Okay. Yeah. Now, finally, they talk about the scripture. And, but I, I didn't get it why he said that the Muslim guy who didn't believe it, uh, like why he was defeated. So, it didn't, like, he didn't like him, him not accepting the explanation. Um, yeah, because he, he rejected the explanation. Of course, everybody, every Muslim. Yeah. And, and when he, and then Tom said, "And he was defeated." The Muslim guy was defeated. Like, did he know he was defeated? And what in the argument he was defeated? Probably he was frustrated with him because he couldn't get anywhere with, like, meaning he was frustrated with Tom and that he couldn't get anywhere with him, right? Yeah. Because, like, it's a, yes, it's an, it's an answer that is sensible to a Christian within a Christian framework. Yeah. But isn't sensible to a Muslim. And even he's trying to kind of get at, like, yeah, a Muslim wouldn't understand it. So, why are you explaining it that way? Why do you not see that that's not going to get through to him? So, now, now I'm not, I don't accept his explanation though, that, oh, he's probably thinking because he's a Muslim that, like, if Muhammad was on the cross, he would have, he would have his men bring him down from the cross and he would, like, what? He's going to kill them all or something. Yeah. So, I was just saying that, um, the, the Muslim didn't accept the explanation from Tom, and that, like, I don't think the Muslim, I don't think Muslims would be thinking, "Oh, actually, if it was Muhammad on the cross, his men would bring him down and then he would fight." Um, I think they'd be thinking what the Quran says. The Quran talks about, you know, God, like, essentially vindication given to the prophets. So, um, or, or even about persecution, but they're not going to be thinking that about Muhammad. It just doesn't relate to him. So, it just, to me, it just betrays, like, he doesn't really know how Muslims see things, uh, about this, and he's, he's imposing superimposing a, like, a more, it's not that it's not that no Muslims are like, it's not like there aren't any Muslims who are violent or extreme.

But, uh, you know, the typical Muslim is not going to be thinking in those terms. Yeah. So, you know, he jumped to it. Must he must have been like a Hamas supporter. That's what he said. Yeah. Like, okay, he just needs to be a Muslim. Yeah. Like an actual, not a nominal Muslim who doesn't know anything and doesn't really believe it. Yeah. That's really what he's been talking to the whole time is talking about nominal Muslims. Not really. Not real Muslims. Like a real Muslim is not going to immediately change their direction of their life because in a dream. Oh, that's for sure. Like, just like we would say. It's not like, oh, I had a I I've been studying the Bible for so many years in my life and believing it now. Oh, I had a dream of Jesus appearing to me and telling me, "You got it all wrong. Follow Muhammad." Okay. Uh, I don't know. He's teaching me the Shahada in the dream like, uh, or or I just have a dream of Muhammad appearing to me because the Hadith says that, you know, that therefore's authentic. Nobody can masquerade as Muhammad. So, you know, I must be, you know, I'm just going to change the direction of my life because of that. Uh, let's go back to the scripture stuff. So, he he said that he would introduce Matthew 5:7. Yeah. And and then he he specifically mentioned Iranian Iranian Muslims. So I, you know, I don't, this is kind of how I say it when we talk about stuff, but I always just, you know, I'm generalizing here. It's not that it's there aren't any ones, but like in general, it's like Iranian Muslims aren't real Muslims. Like, especially on the West, I'm sure there are some, but like whenever we hear stories about Iranians who are leaving Islam, becoming Christian, they weren't real Muslims, almost any of them that I've ever heard of. Most of the ones who said that they were Muslim background weren't even Muslim background. They were already agnostics or atheists or like hating religion in general. So, they don't count. Uh, like we're only concerned about real Muslims. So, that's what that's what this channel is about. Like we're trying to, you know, share information about, you know, persuasive. Yeah. Be persuasive to actual Muslims. Yeah. Right. Not nominal Muslims. Not nominal Muslims who are just in name only. So, yeah, I think that's the dream thing can be effective for those people. I in a way, it's kind of like shallow people who are shallow about religion in general, right? Yeah. That's why it's uh in a sense like I'm it's always frustrated uh frustrating for me to hear that kind of arguments when Christian trying to persuade a serious Muslim, regular, not nominal, uh Muslim by using the shallow argument and the Muslim basically frustrated by like, why you there's no substance behind it. Like, why you try to persuade me such. Yeah. Very also interesting. He didn't just say Iranian Muslims. He said Matthew 5:7. It like speaks to Iranians, but he said also to all Muslims. And that and that Muslims are going to walk away after reading Matthew 5:7 and they're going to have so many questions. Yeah. Like one question for example, the Muslim will ask us, how do you know the Matthew was uh Matthew like that was a prophet, he was inspired by Allah to write the Gospel of Matthew, and what happened to the Gospel of Isa Messi? Yeah. Exactly. So that like we they have to understand, uh, Christians should understand that for somebody to say that is like they don't know anything about talking to Muslims. So that's like amazing that this guy like, you know, I don't mean disrespect, but the reality is like we're actually trying to to reach Muslims. And when we're when we're trying to do that, it is it's an obstacle when Christian uh ministry leaders, missionaries, evangelists, apologists, whoever they are, Christians who portray sharing Matthew 5:7 with a Muslim is going to like be a like earthshattering thing. They're going to walk away having so many questions and like now they're going to be open to the Bible and Christianity. Like give me a break. Yeah, that's a Muslim. And I say that as somebody I became a believer reading Matthew 5. Okay. So I'm not saying like I don't devalue that, but that was my personal experience from where I was coming from. Okay? And I'm not saying that some Muslim, somebody can't read that or read anything else and in the Bible and come to faith. But we're trying to talk about general principles here, like what actually is overall actually is a good argument. Like somebody can, you know, I remember reading the book by uh an Anthony Flu's book. He's a he's now deceased, but he was a very, very prominent leading philosopher in the realm of philosophy of religion who was an atheist for many like decades. He was a leading philosopher and toward the end of his life, he became a theist and he wrote a book, uh, why there, why there is a God. And I'm actually really annoyed. I don't have the book anymore. It's like one of those books that I lost. But but I remember him making a point of the book saying, some people are persuaded by, some people are not persuaded by the best of arguments, and some people are persuaded by the worst arguments. Right. So, we're obviously not aiming just to persuade. We're trying to persuade with good arguments. Okay? So, it's both. It's not like just persuade. We're not trying to persuade through emotional appeal. We're not trying to persuade through deceiving or changing things, uh, or misrepresenting things or misrepresenting their side or our side, or, you know, hiding things. No, no, no. Um, so, but it it's just it's it's interesting because it just means that, yeah, so somebody could read Matthew 5:7 as a devout Muslim and could be somehow their eyes are open. I don't know. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Like, it doesn't that doesn't resonate at all that to be realistic. Yeah. Isn't it isn't realistic. Okay. Uh, I just want to add, uh, that, um, supposedly Tom or anybody else like meeting Muslim and have a conversation for 30 minutes or so about dreams and he realized it's going nowhere. What next? You should switch to the something more solid. Sermon on the Mount. No. And then Gospel and the Gospel of John. That's Oh, yeah. Well, no matter what you use, right? So, it could be dreams, it could be gospel message, simply. But when after after let's say 5, 10, 20 minutes, you realize it's going nowhere. So now you've been forced to change the topic and use something more solid, try to persuade him. Then I I will suggest, why not starting with the strongest argument? Right. Exactly. So, why you have to use a weak argument and waste time, valuable time on that rather than just go for the best one? Like, why you take the good one but not the best? Yes. Also, you look worse. Oh, I am like, you look less credible. Like, oh, I had this, I had this experience and like, what, what is person supposed to do with it? Okay, you had a good experience. Yeah, that's. I had an experience too. Like that. Okay. Uh, yeah, next. Next one. Yeah. If I can, I want you to tell us a little bit more about your ministry. Is what is the common Muslim response to this? I've seen a lot of Muslim critiques of the Trinity, the crucifixion of Jesus, of course, the reliability of the Bible, but how much are they taking up this challenge and responding to it? And what are those kinds of challenges that they offer? Yeah. Yeah. We learned, Sean, a method to share the gospel through the Quran because like we were saying earlier, the Quran says a lot of good things about Jesus. And we memorized this and we were using it one time in Jordan. And we were working with someone, a former Muslim imam. And we were sharing with people in a village. We were sharing with people right next to the mosque about Jesus through the Quran. And we'd say, "Well, this is what, you know, the Quran says." And it, it just wasn't resonating. It was not going anywhere. And so we did that the whole week. I'm not saying God can't use it. I think he can maybe with scholars, you know, maybe with imams and that it works, but we were just like with common village people. And here's what we've realized. They hadn't read the Quran. So, we were telling them what's in their book, you know, and finally this former Muslim imam says, "Hey, by the way, Tom, at the end of the week, just so you know, that's the book we're trying to get him out of. Get get your ammo from the New Testament, not the Quran." And I went, "Got it. Got it." And and it just has to do with the Muslims that we're encountering. So, anyway, I think, um, Can you remind me of the question again? I'm sorry. Yeah. No, that's okay. I was really curious about the Muslim response to the dreams and visions and the testimonies. And I imagine some could say like when I shared the Muslim experiences, you said these are demonic, which of course is a Christian response assuming the Bible is true. I'm with you on that, but we haven't demonstrated that here. I imagine a Muslim could just say, "Oh yeah, these are demonic. They're not real. People are being led astray because we know Islam is true." Like that's one route they could try to take. But how much, as far as you're aware, are Muslim apologists talking about this? What responses are they offering to it? That's what I'm really curious about. Yeah, I, I, there is some, there is response out there that they're saying that are false dreams. Don't listen to them. They're coming to convert you. They're crusaders. They're using all of that stuff. But I think when you share with the Muslim, hey, did you know that Jesus loves you as a person? He has a love for you and he is reaching out to your people. Actually, he's honoring your people. All the wars and the strife and everything happening. Jesus is lifting up the Muslim world. What do you mean? He's coming to them in dreams. He's making a personal visit. I've never had a visit from Jesus. And and here it's happening with Muslims. And so, what do you think about that? They want to talk about it. They feel honored. And this is an honor and shame culture. A lot of shame, you know, that's why they kill their daughter if they get raped. It gets rid of the problem and that. And so this is lifting them up. This is honoring them. That's what Jesus is doing. I didn't have a Jesus dream before I came to faith and most people I know didn't, but Muslims are having that. So the common Muslim, the 60% that are not practicing Islam and even the 30% that are that aren't radical will resonate with that. They will I think the 10% maybe the 8% that would believe in jihad, you probably have to go a different direction to them. Fair enough. That makes sense. Yeah, that's that's end of the video. [Music] clip. Why you give your thoughts first? Yeah, that's, uh, you know, what I don't know what kind of like definitely if they just in Middle East meeting the village people who are not educated, you might maybe say that they don't know the Quran. Uh, I mean, we didn't put the people in the West and the Muslims in the West generally, they know their belief, right? So, I yes, I presume like vast majority of people who we talk to, they they know the basic, the bare minimum which require very persuasive arguments from outside to dismantle. Yeah. So, it's not like I have, you know, like so easy low-hanging fruits all the time. So, I could I don't need to go for the long persuasive heavy argument. So, I could use something like very simple, just read Gospel of John or or just, you know, chapter one, verse one, and then the Muslims will be like, wow, right? And they were going to live in Islam. So, that's not the case. And for me, actually, um, I was, I was several times criticized by other Christians saying, well, you're talking to the strange Muslims. Usually Muslims we meet, that's what they say, they don't know Quran. So, why talk about like, why you use the Quran for that? I was like, okay, first of all, I never met that Muslim who doesn't know the Quran. Okay. Second of all, if if supposedly he's a nominal Muslim, so how can I persuade him to leave even nominal Islam to come to Christ? So, it's easy for me to educate him to tell, do you know by the way, what's your Islam? But you, you put yourself in the under the umbrella of Islam without really knowing what's going on. Yeah. Oh, let me tell you what's really Islam is just come out from there before the, uh, like evening starts, right? Or the night comes. Yeah. So, yeah. And and and even when we do that, we're not trying to, uh, misrepresent because we know that for someone like that, of course, and and reasonably, they might go to somebody in their community like a sheikh or an imam or a knowledgeable person in their family to, you know, get answers to things. So, we want to make sure that we represent it accurately and we and we also even those people, we're going to give them the best arguments we have because they're going to go to, they can go to those people and like, I don't want to be seen as, I don't want to be a dishonest person and misrepresent. Mhm. So, uh, you know, anyway, that's that's our motive to, we we care about what's true and helping helping educate them, as you said, because we think that if they're just educated, that should be enough for them to make an informed decision and follow the truth where the evidence is pointing. So, um, there's that aspect. Um, and also use the same argument to pull members of his family or his friends out of Islam. Sure. Yeah. Of course. Because when you have a personal dream, that's your personal, that's subjective. You cannot again, you get persuaded somehow, right? I've had actually a lot of people ask me who are I've met who are ex-Muslims, um, who come out of Islam for different and not just because of dreams, like a lot of them do have dreams as like a a step in the process or something. Um, and again, like I don't put, you know, much stock into it, but usually that is an element, but, you know, they're they they might come out of Islam because of moral criticism or something else, right? Um, but not for the kind of stuff that we share. Yeah. And then they inevitably ask me like, you know, what, what can I share with my family who are still Muslims? They have no idea what to share because if when they do try to share what they what they what brought them out of it, yeah, it doesn't go well, right? Because it's not persuasive. Yeah. Uh, maybe it isn't very strong evidentially, and they left with weak evidence and not very strong reasons. And it is possible, like I said, uh, like when I mentioned Anthony Flu's point, somebody can be convinced by weak arguments. Somebody can be convinced of the truth with weak arguments and even bad arguments. Right. Doesn't mean that it legitimizes the arguments. Exactly. Right. So, you know, like I can say, well, that's a happy accident that you happen to end up in the right camp, but you need to be educated properly because those are not good reasons. Like I meet people who came to faith like weird through weird ways, like they came to faith through a false teacher. Okay, they met somebody who like wasn't even teaching proper Christian doctrine, like and not just like secondary things, like things that actually matter. And in the end, because they were reading the Bible too, they they followed what was true in the Bible. Okay. So then I have to say, well, that should that like that experience in that person or that dream, sometimes is dreams, I say like that, you should not be relying on that. That's not, in fact, that could be like demonic, right? So, don't put too much stock into it. Um, he also talked about the, I think he was alluding to the camel method. He said that he was taught when they would go to these villages that for that, I think it's the one week they were doing it, okay, where they were using the Quran. That's right. To talk about Jesus. Yeah. The camel method. That's true. So, can can you kind of summarize what camel method is? Yeah. It's camel method. It's, um, um, I don't like, I don't think it's credible because you select certain verses which kind of work for for the Bible or for the argument, but you neglect other verses which are against of the teaching of New Testament. So, that's, uh, not going to fly with knowledgeable Muslim, more real Muslim. He will immediately say, well, okay, you mentioned that Christ was, um, born supernaturally without father, fine. But, uh, it doesn't mean he is a God because in the Quran he said, I'm not part of the Trinity. Right? So, how you can reconcile now the two verses, one is kind of for for us like playing alongside, but another one is contradicting you. So, again, you you hoping for having weak argument for you know, persuade very low-hanging fruits, but as soon as, as soon as you meet a real Muslim, you will be in trouble and you'll, as you said, you'll lose credibility because you start arguing with something that he will clearly deny. And and imagine that that person converts to Christianity and then they find out the truth that those arguments were actually unsound. And the missionary was sharing false information, they should, I mean, they would be warranted to leave Christianity at that point and become one more thing. What I what I really like when when we use, uh, what our strategy and the methodology to reach out Muslims. Um, when we meet Muslim again after a while, after we share with him the main core of the message, you could tell as conversation goes, he couldn't answer. After a while, still he has no answer for the point we raised. And that's really show us that it's, it's very persuasive. It doesn't mean then this Muslim or that Muslim will leave Islam because of that. Yeah. But it's definitely making a like, uh, shatter his belief in a certain level. And, um, he tried to, if I bring it up again, the topic kind of want to reinforce it or continue on this Muslim whom I met before. Now he tried to avoid that continuation. He will go anywhere just with the real conversation from that topic I was raising for the at the first meeting and I want to continue on the second one. It was funny. You were you were telling me we won't mention names of people or circumstances, but you were just telling me about somebody that you met and you didn't realize that I had actually met with that person, uh, and had gone through, you know, the essence of the approach, uh, like quite a bit with him. And, uh, you didn't realize, and he was telling you like, why don't you say it can, yeah, basically I've been like, I, I've like, I have two guys I talk to, two Muslims. And one of them, he tried to derail conversation, move a conversation to different, uh, route. And then he said, oh, I like somebody already talked to me about this issue. I was like thinking like, nobody talked to you, that's impossible because, yeah, it's impossible. There's only two people on the planet at this point, like who can really talk about this, right? You and me, right? And but his consistency in, um, trying to escape that topic and to bring something else instead. Eventually, I started thinking, oh, maybe that guy met you, but I didn't ask him. And it was the case. Sure enough, we find out that you actually met him. And that, and now it's all makes sense because that's now he doesn't want to go through the same pain again. So he does everything just to avoid conversation. I mean, I still bring this conversation up to that point, the topic, but he said, okay, yes, but this. Yeah. So, you had a good point that, um, just because we share certain points, an argument, like a lay out our case, what we do, it doesn't mean somebody's going to decide to become to leave Islam and become a Christian. Because look, ultimately, they have free will. Uh, they can make a choice. We're not Calvinists. So, we don't believe that, uh, you know, God is going to compel them by the power of the Holy Spirit to to make to to do an action that isn't really a choice. Okay? So, they they can make a choice. They can reject the truth and the argumentation that we present to them. Uh, that doesn't force somebody to have a certain response. So, if they're unwilling to leave Islam, that's up to them and they're going to answer to God for that, right? Um, but yeah, so that means if somebody is in that position, which we've met a lot of those people now, that yeah, it really changes their demeanor when they see us. I'm always respectful because it's a respectful approach and, um, I think if anything, they have a higher, often have a higher regard for us, um, because we presented stuff that they didn't know how to really rebut or, you know, how to refute. So, um, but then all they can do is avoid the topic and go to try to go to something else because they can't make any headway and they can't answer it. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think really validates the approach that we have. Absolutely. We can't expect anything more. Can't expect that they will definitely leave Islam and become a Christian. There's a huge commitment that they have to make to to make that decision. Uh, that goes beyond just making a decision about truth. It's going to affect their families and their life and everything, right? So, but but also I expect them not to have an answer and that's what I'm looking all the time to see if I meet Muslim again. Yeah. And I want to see if he will find something to rebut. Yeah. My point, a few points, or many points, and I find has nothing after after months or maybe years. Yeah. From the first encounter. Yeah. I'm increasingly seeing that the longer I do it, that it's not like they came back and they said, "Oh, you know, that how you interpreted that verse, that was wrong, and, you know, and this is how to I would explain that and this." They don't do that. No, because we use the the most strongest, uh, from what we find, argument, and it works in a sense. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to say, at most, like I've had somebody like maybe one person out of all the people I've talked to who's tried to, um, say, here's an explanation for that verse that you use in the first part, what we call for the first pillar. Yeah. Right. So, in other words, trying to say that the verse that I, you, one of the verses of the many that I use to show that the Quran supports the reliability of the text of the Torah in the time of Muhammad, um, that's like the very first beginning part of the case that we're making, that isn't even the substance of our approach, right? And, but so that's what I've had some attempts at rebuttal to, but even that is like so weak. It was like one thing, but they didn't actually try to address all the other verses I brought up and, you know, and then they're not kind of unwilling to really reason it through. So, and go back and forth. And I, you know, for us, the issue is not so much that. It's more about explain to explain to us why the Jews changed all these stories in all these details in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ways about things that don't really seem to matter, have no import. And I want to, I want to make, uh, make sure I gonna say it again, and we probably should say it almost in in every video because one of the very important, um, uh, well condition we talk to Muslims. We're not going to talk about anything from the Torah or Old Testament or New Testament which has no parallel account in the Quran. Right. We always compare the same story to the same story. Yeah. Right. Because otherwise, they will they have tendency to ask you tons of questions about reliability of the event Torah and they they will demand for you to answer it while Quran is not even in on the stage, right? And said, no, it's not going to work like that. So, if we have, um, comparison or at least we have a discussion, it means both books should be present and the best way is to find similar stories. And guess what, 987 verses of the Quran is actually speaking in details about, um, everything what happened from Adam to Moses, including Moses. So, which is like primarily Moses. Yeah. So, not even like the whole Old Testament characters, just. And, yeah, and the rest of the Old Testament is about 100, I think, 17, 110 verses, and New Testament, 113 verses altogether. They're not even, they dwarf based by the Torah, how much the Quran or out of the Quran speaks about the event in the Torah described in the Torah. And why we have to talk about something else when we nobody touches that subject, right? Definitely we need to go through that. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. It's okay. Yeah. So, that I, I basically saying that's is number one subject we should have talked to because it's so easy to to see and look for example, that, uh, the Muslims said to me, well, your Torah been corrupted. And the Quran said that a New Testament contradict. All said, really? Let's go to Exodus 2:5-10, which is my favorite passage. When I, well, before that, I went there, I asked them, the two Muslims standing in front of me, and I said, um, I asked them, um, the member of, what, what member of the Fyon of Pharaoh family adopted Moses, baby Moses? They thought in the Quran, of course, and they said, "Oh, it's a wife of Pharaoh." I said, "Yeah, sure." And who was in the Torah? And one guy said, "What, the wife?" I said, "Well, no, it's daughter." And it's five times mentioned in Genesis or sorry, Exodus 2:5 verse 5 to verse 10, but then the five verses, five times mentioned the daughter of her specifically. But that's not not that's not everything. We go to the New Testament and in Acts 7 and, um, Hebrews 11, by passing it mentioned the daughter of Pharaoh as at the mother, uh, of Moses, right, adopted son. So, I think, what are you talking about? You're talking about New Testament contradict Old Testament. I just show you simple example that they are entwined. And then the only book on the planet which tells different story, that's your Quran. So, that's what we have to discuss. And there are number of passages and we, we have our, um, video on that in using the Dead Sea Scrolls primarily, right? Show how the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest found biblical manuscript, the Torah manuscript, is in line with not only today's Old Testament or the Torah in an electronic format or whatever, right, but also connected with the New Testament because New rely on the same Torah. And all both of them had contradicted with the Quran. So, that's what we have to debate. And I ask a question, why do you think the Jews corrupted the Torah in such a way that even apostles and Christ himself, as you said, is they didn't catch it? So, I have to wait 1600 years before the Muhammad came and give it a perfectly preserved Quran which contains, you know, accurate information. Now we have to drop the Torah. Well, nobody knew about it that the Torah. And that's one example. There are a bunch of examples like that. Oh, yeah, that we could look at. Um, I just wanted to say another thing about, I don't think we covered as much as I wanted to say about the camel method. I just wanted to come back to that to say, I think that's really distorting the Quran and we don't condone that. So, we don't condone mishandling any other text that, well, any text really, but especially people texts that others, uh, regard as scripture, even though we don't regard it as scripture, you know, we're trying to be, we need to be respectful in the way that we do that, uh, and, uh, reminded in, uh, Second Timothy, it says, you know, it's talking about the biblical scriptures, but it says that we're to be, you know, workmen approved, uh, rightly handling the word of truth. Yeah. So, talking about the Bible, we, we Old and New Testament, we rightly handle it. We don't distort it. We don't twist it. We don't turn it into, you know, supporting our own ideas. We just, we're trying to accurately handle it carefully, submissive to what it means. So, we do that with the Quran. We, that's what we strive to do. You know, we're not, we, we make mistakes, right? But we're st, we try to be corrected and and submit to that when it's, you know, it's a valid correction. Um, so, we just want to say that I wanted to say that especially that we don't condone mishandling it or misusing it just because it might actually be effective at, you know, persuading those nominal Muslims who don't know much. Uh, we don't condone that because that's essentially it's, uh, it's deceitful, is really what it is. And, you know, the Quran does not teach biblical things about Jesus, right? So, the biblical Jesus, the Quranic Jesus are different, just as the biblical Adam and the Quranic Adam, biblical Adam, Noah, or Ishmael, or Abraham, or Abraham, or any of them, they're all completely different. I mean, that's almost, almost entirely different. Right? So, uh, you know, we're not going to misrepresent on, we're not aiming to misrepresent or condoning that intentionally on any of that. So, we don't support things like that that, you know, like I'm not sure if the camel method does this specifically, but there are Christians who try to say, what is it? Surah 19:33 that says that Jesus died and he rose from the dead. Yeah. Right. That's what they say that the Quran means. Okay. But, but that's not how any Muslim understands it. And like, that's not a fair reading. You're you're reading into it, which is called isog Jesus. You're reading into the text your own idea that doesn't belong there. You're not drawing out carefully, exegesis the text through proper interpretation. And proper interpretation means you read it as a whole, as a consistent whole, aiming to harmonize it. Otherwise, you're kind of, you know, forcing it to fi forcing to find contradictions in it when if you can harmonize it, then you know, you have to you have to go with that to be fair, right? As I would expect people to do with the Bible, I'm going to do with the Quran. So, I wanted to say that for sure. Um, I don't, any other final thoughts? No, I think we can wrap up. It's okay. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us and, uh, hopefully, we gave you some things to think about and, uh, yeah, hopefully, we can all strive for the truth and properly examining both scriptures, uh, striving for that. And, uh, yeah, that's all we got. Hopefully, yeah, bye-bye. Bye-bye.