A Conversation About the Outsourced Controller Role

Hi everyone. I'm Dennis Karganilla. I'm your host today. And today we have a very special guest. Her name is Andree Scallion. She's a good friend of mine. She's been my bookkeeper for almost, you know, seven, eight years now. I think going back to 2017 or something like that.

And and she's developed a very interesting model that she calls the gap method, which is a a new model that, you know, a lot of undervalued bookkeepers can use to really turn themselves in from a just a bookkeeper to someone who is, you know, trusted, someone who can advise on their clients and and would be able to get paid a lot more while doing a lot less.

And the the reason why I wanted to bring her on here is because she developed this model, ran her business for over 10 years, and then even sold it because she got it to a point where it was a well-oiled machine and working on its own and and just and and she and she wanted to do other things and and pursue other passions in her her her life. So she got it to a point where she sold it. And so now she's teaching the whole model of like how she built her bookkeeping business, how she got it to that point. Built multiple six-figure income per year with it running like a well-oiled machine whether she was there or not. And she didn't it didn't didn't like it didn't depend on her being there 24/7 all the time. And I think a lot of bookkeepers want to know like what is this new model and how does it work and why is no one else talking about it?

So, Andree, can you can you tell us a little bit more about like, you know, obviously this is for a certain specific type of bookkeeper. So, tell us a little bit more about like what kind of bookkeeper this really this model really would work well for.

Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Again, I'm Andree and I am a bookkeeper and I've been a bookkeeper with my own business for about a decade. sold that company and an accountant. So, I I figured out early that to make more money, you had to kind of shift the mindset and shift your game plan. So, this works well. to answer your question for those who have probably been in the field of accounting I would say as a whole maybe not owning their own business but in accounting for at least three to five years and then possibly even having their own accounting business either boutique style which is what we would say like a solo bookkeeper or even a small firm maybe they have two to five employees employees that they work with or subcontractors. It works well with those people because they are already have some clientele, have some cash flow coming in, but they just need to get to the next level and have the desire to get to the next level.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I But what can you tell us like why do you think that like some people get stuck, right? Right? And why some of the bookkeepers get stuck and maybe they got to a certain point where they just can't grow or they're overwhelmed or you know the if they take on more business at this point it's just going to add more stress and headaches like tell tell us a little bit about that and and how did how does this model you know fix that?

Yeah I think you said it well when you said they get stuck and they're overwhelmed. usually when you're in that phase of the early beginnings of starting a bookkeeping company, especially if you're the solo bookkeeper, you are literally carrying every every single hat. You're no longer only providing bookkeeping services for someone maybe as a subcontractor under another company or working as an employee for another company, but you actually own that business. So, you're a business owner and it's all overwhelming, which is why accountants exist and bookkeepers exist in the first place to help business owners, but then you're you're one and the same, right? You're the business owner and you're providing accounting services and bookkeeping services. So, getting stuck it happened pretty quickly for me. early on I I had made that hurdle of at least getting the first client which is exciting and terrifying all in it in its own self and then had clients that I was working through but I found myself really busy busy and just doing a lot doing doing and so it will burn you out eventually if you're always the doing side of things and maybe not designing your business the way that it functions properly, designing it so that you can bill more and and also get the right clientele. And so that's where you get stuck is not exactly the right client. You're not billing enough. You're essentially overworked and underpaid, I think, is what's happening in a lot of those situations.

Do you remember any clients or any situation where you felt like that you were undervalued or underpaid or you were doing so much work and you're just thinking, man, they're not paying me enough or I'm not like can you do you remember any any anything like that when you were first getting started?

Yeah, I I think again this has been 10 years ago. So 10 years ago, the rates that we were billing in, you know, in this accounting world of bookkeeping was maybe, you know, 150 a month, not an hour a month. And even then, people were like, oo, you know, and you're thinking, oh my gosh, really? Like if you have I can think of people that I was working with who had many checking and savings and liability accounts and credit card accounts and it takes so much time to make sure that those things are correctly categorized to make sure the reconciliations are accurate to make sure they they get their reports on time and yeah there were there were a lot I had quite a few of those clients in the beginning that were just a lot of work. And so some of them I did end up keeping and we restructured some models and some of them I I had to let them go because it just was never going to function the way that I my value I finally figured out the value that I was worth and then that changed.

Well, what what was it that what changed for you? Like cuz obviously you ran a business for over 10 years very successfully, multiple six figures in revenue every year. Yep. And even sold it. So at some point something changed like what what was it that you figured out that was like oh this way is so much better.

Yeah. so I figured out let's see. So, first off is what I was billing for and kind of the shift between bookkeeping, the concept of bookkeeping. There's this other concept called fractional CFO that is all over and it's very popular and it has been popular for a very long time. There's actually a big company that provides fractional CFO. And I felt like bookkeepers in general, they have kind of a stereotype or a stigma, you know, coming from CPAs and tax filers, you know, the bookkeeper. But literally, I think people don't recognize how much work bookkeepers actually do and their capabilities if they're really, really good. And I found that there's a gap in between this bookkeeper and this fractional CFO. And in that gap was what I refer to as an outsourced controller. So I found that fairly quick. I mean we I was already providing a lot of those services as an outsourced controller. just finding the identity for it and being able to actually build for it was where the shift happened for me. It was probably I would say maybe around year three and four. figuring out the kind of client that I I really wanted to work with. That happened sooner. But finding the right client will pay the right amount of fees that you're requesting when you are marketing yourself as an outsource controller. That's key. They're both go hand in hand.

Well, can you because you know I've seen a lot of, you know, so there's a lot of courses I see online being advertised and it's also solving the same problem. You know, like I feel overworked, not getting paid what I'm worth, what I feel like I'm worth, people don't respect me, right? They look they look down as a just a bookkeeper, right? So what's like what what's the difference? What is just a bookkeeper doing versus what is a fractional CFO doing versus what is a outsource controller doing? Like what what's the difference? Like what are they providing or are they all providing the same thing that's just they have different titles? Like how does how does that work?

Yeah. So, in my experience, in the world that I existed in and made money in, a bookkeeper, just a bookkeeper, I I I that is a term that does get thrown around, but I it's extremely important. I in any type of business that you run because that just a bookkeeper is the first space to tell the story of someone's business and tell it correctly because they are literally the people who are seeing these transactions come in. They're making sure that the categorization is happening accurately. They're making sure that the reconciliations that are are happening are accurate. they're catching things that are in real time. And so the bookkeeper is super important. And then you can move into this other this gap the gap of a controller. So a controller oversees the entire accounting process for a company. If you have just let's just take a simple basic company. They'll have their controller who will oversee the accounts receivable department. they were over oversee the accounts payable department making sure who you're paying and making sure things are getting paid making sure that those who owe you money it's being received in a timely manner. and then you've got payroll there's payroll departments there's making sure that all of the tax filing for payroll happens. Making sure that people are being p get raises making sure their insurance gets deducted. you know, all of those things happen. And then they're overseeing also the reconciliation process, too. And then you can get into inventory. You can get into making sure the budgeting plan is input into the system. The benchmarks are are into the system. Though that is what an outsourced controller on a very high level they do versus your CFO or your fractional CFO. Generally speaking, the CFO, they over they are the next up. They're the top of the line, the chief financial officer position, which they, in my experience, I've seen in the past tend to be able to audit. So maybe they'll have a CPA license because you have to have a CPA license to be able to audit. And they also are taking the data that the controller is producing and providing for them through financial reporting. And they are making decisions, major decisions on a company, which those major decisions can be expansion. It can be downsizing, it can be adding another location, it can be adding a certain type of product to see what's going to happen with that product. They really are the brain behind everything. I look at it that way. Who is the decision maker on the financial front for the entire, you know, company? You've got your your executive officers and your chief financial. So that's where I really shine was in that that outsourced controller because I could I could do all of the accounting process and I could do it really well and provide all of those services for those companies and they didn't have to hire an expensive onboard controller for a smaller type of business ownership, small businesses.

Yeah, I can relate because I, you know, I'm an entrepreneur with multiple businesses in the past and, you know, I wanted more than just a bookkeeper, right? Cuz when I was hiring just a bookkeeper, it feels like it's just an expense or a cost to me. It's like, what am I even paying this person to like what are they really doing for me, right? It's not doesn't seem like it's a lot. Maybe something I can do. I don't want to do it. Maybe it's something but it just feels like an expense. But then you go to the other it's like well hire a CFO but it's like I don't think I was big enough like I wasn't a big corporation you know I was I was running an online business I didn't have like, you know big offices with hundreds of employees and department making all the decisions for the company right yeah so I didn't and, you know, I'm still the one making all the decisions so I didn't need a CFO but I knew I needed something that was like not just a bookkeeper but I wasn't ready for a CFO and I didn't have I didn't want to pay, you know, six figure salary for a C a full-time CFO, right? I needed someone in the middle. And and Andree filled that gap for me. And it it's beautiful. Like just the other day, she was like, you know, DK, you got to you got to renew your your LLC in Delaware registered agent. Or registered agent. See, I don't even know, right? Like cuz because when you're when when you're out there building your business, like you're busy making sales, talking to prospects, making your product better, delivering the service, right? You don't always have time to be watching the books or oh, knowing, oh, I got to renew, you know, the registered agent or the, you know, LLC fees are due or or whatever. There's like all these other things that the financial part where like I'd like to know kind of where we're at, but I don't want to be in the weeds spending time on there all day long. I just just give me the high level so I can make a decision like quickly and and not and not have to deal with it because my mind works best when I'm building the business, making sales, talking to class prospects, going out, meeting new people, networking, that type of thing to grow the business, like doing that other stuff. and and that's not how I'm wired. That's not what I do best. It's like having someone like Andree just do that was what I needed, right? And so it was worth it to me to it was more of an investment to have someone like Andree who's kind of like my strategic financial partner, my strategic financial adviser to kind of watch over everything just to make sure everything's align and that I'm not missing anything because I'll miss a lot of things. I'm not watching the deadlines and stuff like that. She'll remind me when something's due, payroll is due, a tax tax something and with taxes is due, you know, whatever. I'm not thinking about that because I'm growing the business and she's she's watching that and letting me know when that happens. And so that was very worthwhile for me and worth making that investment, paying a higher rate than just what you'd pay a regular book.

Correct. Yeah, it is. It's a bit it's a different collaboration, a different relationship that you have with a client. and it's essential especially when you're dealing with people who are going to get into you know next which is the ideal client right so which is a serial entrepreneur so yeah yeah

Can you talk can you can you talk more about that like okay so let's just say you're you're the model so the model for you was like not just a bookkeeper but not not not going to CFO and I think you even mentioned it before you're like for a bookkeeper for trying to jump to a CFO feels like a big jump.

Yeah. I just I in my in my experience being in accounting in all types of roles of accounting for 24 years you know I didn't I just never felt that identity with a CFO. to me a CFO you know looks like someone who may own shares of a company you know has a lot of major decision making capabilities. So for a bookkeeping company you know the boutiques the solo bookkeepers maybe the small firm or potential to grow a larger firm I it just didn't resonate. I didn't see myself in that in that space.

Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, for for me, I knew I needed something. I didn't know what to call it and and it wasn't just a bookkeeper and it wasn't a CFO. And so, you filled that gap and called it that outsource controller. And that's what it need. That's what I needed. That's what I wanted. And that's what helps me to grow my businesses without having to expend extra mental capacities thinking about all the financials and all those things all the time. And that provided a very valuable service. I just didn't know what it was called. And what you're calling it that, it's it operating in that gap and that's what that controller is. And it just it covers the entire accounting process, you know, from the money the money that comes in to the money that goes out to everything in between.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so knowing that there's this gap, right? So, you're not working with the big corporations, you're not working with the real small mom and pops, but there's like the serial entrepreneurs. tell us a little bit more about why you like them and why they're like the perfect fit for for this kind.

They are. I do. I think you know it's funny when I started 10 years ago you know I had already owned businesses in the past and I've done accounting in the past with partner like spouses and then I had been a controller for a mental health space and then I had done payroll for large dealerships and so I had accounting experience throughout that entire span but when I finally decided I wanted to own my own business and found that I could do bookkeeping. I was in that space where I was looking and trying to educate myself, you know, buying books, how do you start a bookkeeping company, what am I supposed to charge, who am I supposed to target, all of those normal questions that people who start a business generally will start will ask themselves. And I read all of those things like targeting construction owners, which it did happen because I had my background originally. I had worked in construction and done accounting for construction companies and so I thought, "Oh, well, let's go this route." And then I kind of got into networking and learned other types of businesses and and retail on that kind of stuff. And quickly I figured out that for me it's not really about the industry that I was my client. The industry wasn't necessarily the the ideal client. It was the serial entrepreneur and because because they had multiple businesses. They were different businesses. They had the cash flow. they were creative in what they were trying to accomplish. And that worked really well because when I established a relationship with those individuals, they keep and they continue to work with you. Especially when you do a really good job. There's no question. Oh, hey, we're opening another franchise. They need you to create the books for a new franchise. Those types of things were starting to happen and majority of my clientele were serial entrepreneurs. They were some of their f some of their endeavors didn't always work out, but that's part of owning business, but they just kind of moved on to the next. So, that was my bread and butter. That's who I would stand up and request to get intro, you know, introductions to or people who own multiple businesses and and were I labeled them serial entrepreneurs.

Yeah. I'm a I'm a serial entrepreneur myself and and like like you said, you're always trying the next big thing, right? Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. But the the beautiful thing was like I knew when I was ready to start a new company or try a new opportunity or something I wanted to build out like I didn't have to think of like okay who's going to be my bookkeeper who how am I going to like I already knew hey Andree I need your help we're going to start this new company I need you to just I need to pull you like I didn't have to think about it so that's why it's beautiful like I built such a strong relationship like no matter how many businesses I start between now until the day I die it's always like hey Andree Okay, I'm up to a new thing here. Can you Can you Can we do what we've already done, what you've established before? I already trust you. I know I know that you could deliver. I know you do a good job. Like, I don't have to think about trying to hire someone else.

Yeah. And Andree is that go-to person for me because she handles all the things behind the scenes as far as the financial side so that I can just do what I do, which is to go grow and build the business.

Yes. Well, and even the the relationship even as the outsource controller relationship, you know, I was creating entities like LLC's. We were learning different things about different states. so it was it was beneficial for sure to have that partnership with those with a serial entrepreneur like yourself because that is what they do. That really is their business in my mind is they are serial entrepreneurs.

Well, well, give give them some examples because I know like like I said before people were taught target, you know, real estate agent or trucking companies or dentists, right? So, a certain and be that be your niche. But you being a serial entrepreneur, like who have you attracted like and what kind of industries as a serial entrepreneur have you have you attracted?

Yeah. So, I'm trying to think back gosh it's been 10 years. beginning was people who they had there were quite a few real estate that did there usually people who are in real estate they do have I call it another hustle they usually are investing in other projects maybe they own they're now into property management they have nonprofits so there were quite a few of those I also worked with someone who was into like IP kind of stuff, apps. I don't know if it's IP or it, I don't know, but they had apps that they would create and then that turned into franchising. This person is a large franchiser of a certain type of cookie that's really popular. And they You could say crumble. And I Okay, you just did. They You didn't say it. I said it. I know they had six locations that they opened in under three years. I mean, he didn't even question. He was like, I made this set up and we worked with the I worked with the franchise company directly. It was like to the point that's what I'm saying when you get into that outsource controller space. They literally, hey, I just got this from the state. What does this mean? Hey, I need to figure out they need X, Y, and Z with the franchise. Can you work with them? I mean, we were we we were working directly with the franchise accounts. So, that's a really good example of and then they got into some vending. And then other people have done wedding venues and they own properties that are commercial property. I've had another person that was into commercial property, but then also did he worked in oh gosh, like car modification. So, I mean, they're all over. I've had, you know, other gym owners that have owned, you know, supplement companies. So, those are what I'm saying. They're just great. They're great people to work with. They usually have a very similar mindset as a business owner. And they also really value what you bring to the table. And they also have the cash flow because as you bill accordingly to to the value that you bring, they don't blink an eye. They really don't because they see, oh, I got my reports again. Oh, this this makes sense. I can I can I know that this person is going to follow through in creating an entity or setting up a withholding or a sales and use account or making sure they get this workers comp audit done. And I mean, I'm going all over the place, but definitely the serial entrepreneurs. And you you don't have to have you're working with one business personality rather than 17,000 businesses.

Yeah. That that's the other benefit is like you can get that amount of business with like all these small businesses, but now you're dealing with 10, 15, 20 different personalities. Correct. Right. where you get a serial entrepreneur who has five, six different businesses, you're dealing with one personality with one, you know, one way of doing things and they you already, you know, figured out how to do this dance with them and they know they know what to expect. You know what to expect and it makes it easier, but you're bringing on more business. Yep. and and doing more books and getting paid more for that from that one client even though you're doing multiple businesses versus having 10 15 different clients, you know, and then having to deal with every different personality. Everyone has to do their certain way. They're using their certain different they like to do things differently and it becomes more of a headache and more of like more of juggling and makes it more more work on your end.

Yes. No, I it's true. It just is it was a no-brainer for me. Like I I think I mentioned or said the story about how I discovered the serial entrepreneur concept.

Yeah. Talk talk about that because I don't they people haven't heard that. How did you come up with the serial entrepreneur?

Yeah. So I have always been intrigued with forensic files and like you know cold case files all those shows and dine and I I was at a at a networking I was big networker and in a group that's a referral networking group and I you have to stand up and do your weekly ask or your weekly commercial and I just was like oh my gosh I got to go another week. What am I going to say? like I can't what am I going to ask for? I'm like, "Huh, I know what I want." Because I had just finished watching like some something that was serial killer something. So, I stood up and it was a joke. It was a half-hearted joke, honestly. It was to be funny, you know, put some sense of humor into this these these these referral, you know, and I said, "I would love the ideal serial killer." not a no, excuse me, not a serial killer, a serial entrepreneur. And then everybody started laughing and it just kind of and I it literally rang true. It is true. That's the people that I found work that to work with and it worked out really really well.

So that's that's great. But but when you when you attract the serial entrepreneurs, are they like one and done? Like do they have a lot of them stayed with you long term and then did they give you all their business all at once or how did how did that work?

No. So no that's yeah no they don't. initially like I'm thinking particularly of one individual he was a referral from you know networking and it was it was just they don't even they don't say what they do right a lot of them don't initially come out. I don't even know if they recognize that that's what they are is a serial entrepreneur. but he was just an introduction. It was a really simple account to manage a property that he owned outside of the state that I live in. And it was a commercial like a business, not a a professional services complex. and he owned the building and they would take rents from like you know doctors or whatever and it was really basic something like that. He had moved back into the state that I live in and and it was an introduction and I I gave him a price in the beginning. This was back in the days when I I was pretty inexpensive. it was very early on and wasn't necessarily in the outsource controller space yet or billing for that yet or marketing that and I have that person has been my client since I sold it honestly so from 20 I think 17 all the way through you know 2025 and he's one that every time he has some strange new venture I get an and it's usually pretty wordy and I'm like, "Okay." And he'll just say, "Hey, this is what's going on." And then he'll that's it. But they it gets to the point where you're not even like, "Hey, can you fit me in as a client?" You just go alone.

That's great. So like I like I said that you know a lot of times they they give you something small to start because they want to test you right they want to see are you any good are you you know can you really deliver what you say you can deliver do I trust you right are we a good fit working together and then once we find that like once you establish that relationship it's kind of like okay great I don't I don't want to have to find someone else that makes sense okay and so I have all these other ventures now to I need you take this I need you to come in on these take this over handle the bookkeeping set this up it's going to be this date you know whatever whatever it's great it's a really good relationship and it's you I've had I have been very very fortunate that I've worked with really great people that are even friends now people who are in new networking groups and have bookkeepers and they don't they never they don't leave they stay they're like this person might be less expensive, but I don't think so because of the relationship that you build with people and trust.

Well, that's a good question. What you're bringing up is like so a lot of these bookkeepers are probably wondering like, okay, so what's the price wise? Like what what can I be charging these type of serial entrepreneurs now, right? So, we know we're going to target serial entrepreneurs. I know I want to position myself not just a bookkeeper, not quite as not quite fractional CFO but outsource controller, you know, you know, I know what I'm charging right now as a bookkeeper and I'm not getting paid enough, right? What can I expect to charge for this for, you know, and what are they happy to pay with? And and are they balking at you? Are they like trying to negotiate? Like what what do you think is a rate that people are are happy to pay?

Yeah. So bookkeeping in general, let's just talk bookkeeping because obviously a decade ago I already referred to like my 150 a month which is the it's ridiculous. Anyway, I eventually figured out that I the services that we start at did not fall under 385 a month. Generally that was any oncoming new clients. I have honored, you know, over the years the introductory founder rate for a lot of my clients because I did have those relationships with those people and a lot a lot of those people would refer new clients. So I have honored that. But 3.85 I know that 350 I've seen other a few other companies and it's usually around 350. we were at 3.85 for your basic, we're talking super simple bookkeeping, like your one to two asset accounts, which are your checking and your savings accounts. maybe a credit card, one liability account. They didn't really house a lot of their sales inside of the the software that we were using. They were probably a cash client. They weren't accrual. they didn't have a lot of debt. they needed to reconcile. So that literally and that included, you know, monthly financials. I did allow to meet with people once a month for an hour if they'd like. I never charged for, you know, texting or anything like that. And it was 385. So, when you get into more complicated work such as you're taking on a full charge type of bookkeeping, which is the outsourced controller included in that,, which is maybe they house their receivables and you're you're managing and sending out statements on a timely manner. You're receiving payments and making sure the payments are matching to the invoices that they're paying or the sales receipts. you're managing more than one checking, more than one savings. You are managing multiple credit cards. Those are fun. and liabilities, maybe they have, you know, loans that they've taken out and you're managing those or, you know, that kind of stuff. and then you can get even more, we're talking even more complicated where you're working through inventory, you're working out of dual systems. Let's say someone has a CRM or an outside outsource an outside system and then you're doing journal entry to carry it all into whatever software they're using. we at least double you can at least double that to where you're starting at the 750 and it goes on up. So we had clients that we were billing 3,000 a month. and that you was usually you know many transactions were happening. it was outside the system. on up to at one point I did have one client that we were billing 16 grand a month for that client.

So what were they doing? What were they doing on this?

They were in crypto. Yeah. Crypto mining. So Bitcoin mining or crypto mining. And it was very complicated but we did it. So that is the most receivable I've ever actually built for outsourced controller stuff.

And so so you're saying, you know, 750, 1,500, 3,000 a month up to 16,000 a month for really, you know, elaborate complicated. and you're in there and you're usually in there or a staff member is in there on a weekly basis tracking and pulling in re, you know, pulling in transactions, making sure that things are accurate. Sometimes you got classification that's happening and I know I'm getting super nerdy in the accounting process, but it it's a it's a job, you know, in itself. It's quite the projects, but it's well worth it. I mean, you're managing your time and your structure. We always had a structure in place., we had enough staff to help. So, and it's it's worth it. It's worth it to the client, too, because they're paying, you know, an employee well above that per month for a good controller because you're anywhere from 95,000 on up to, you know, 185 to $200,000 a year. Yeah. For a full-time salaried employee. Yeah. So when you can outsource that, that's a good deal for those entrepreneurs.

I I know like one of our businesses was very high volume like almost a thousand a thousand transactions a day, $100. That was the most I have ever done. Does do you keep that into consideration as far as we were? Now this has been years ago for our audience, right? Imagine a thousand transactions. I think I think our highest was like 3,000 transaction $100 $100 a transaction. And keep in mind at this time, this has been what eight years ago, I also moved you guys from desktop to online and that saved so much time.

Didn't you just say that's a good way to get people in? people talk about that because you know you talk about that even for several entrepreneurs, right? Some a lot of them are still using desktop.

They are. They are. And so a good way to get them is to bring them online, right? It is. Yeah. That's another side service that we use to bill for. So if it if there were, you know, we'd have your normal typical type of stuff like clean up and set up for new clients and or clients that are moving from a different from one software to another. it's a big service especially if you're pro prominently a QuickBooks you know we use QuickBooks a lot. I can we can use any software but QuickBooks is obviously the dominant one in in this industry and they really there's people that have been in around for a long time. I can I remember a year ago or so, I had a client that a prospective client that reached out and needed to be they were they were selling and moving their ways because they were an older insurance company and he wanted to retire and he had been on desktop for oh my gosh 20 years 30 years I don't know and they were terrified to move. but I did I went and I met with them. It was going to be pretty straightforward. But I think people think it's a lot scarier than it is and it's it's not. they make it pretty simple. I do recommend that people use an expert to do it because there's things that you have to watch for and the systems don't always you have to audit against the old system, but it's it's a it's a billable that's out there as well to be able to move people into a from desktop to online.

Yeah, I know you mentioned you were talking to me about this the other day or a couple of weeks ago where you said like there was that company with the investor, right? Bill or whatever and they were still desktop.

Yep. And so you So that was the first thing you did. You just moved them helped them move to online, right? to the online QuickBooks online. But because you're serial entrepreneur or investor, it opened up a whole new world and now you're taking on like another franchise and multiple locations for Correct. Right. So talk about that like

Yeah. So the individual that I ended up selling my business to, I stayed on to be, you know, an adviser for them and they did they get it. They got re they someone reached out. It's a an individual who's been in different types of businesses and had invested in a it's an oil an oil type of company and they needed to move from they wanted to possibly move from desktop to online. they needed a more of a full-time in how you know bookkeeping controlling type of setting because they had a CPA that was in there very randomly and very very not very often and she was doing very basic because there was CPAs they don't always want to do bookkeeping. I found that you're usually one or the other. You're a tax filer. You don't really want to do the day-to-day stuff. And she also was doing other ventures. she was getting into real estate. So, they found us. They found my company that I had sold and it worked out. We moved them to online, figured out their inventory because inventory was one of their biggest hurdles and one of their biggest concerns was moving from desktop to online because of the way that they do their inventory. So, we figured that out. It was fine. Everything's moved. and then also have implemented, you know, helping this person who's the actual in in the office running the day-to-day operation. He's just like one of those people that's super busy doing every hat right now. We helped them make sure that their statements were going out because they weren't going out. They collected $10,000 that first month that their statements have passed due, you know. So having that person, a controller, come in, it alleviates a lot of those things and you actually you see a profit because you're actually collecting on the money that you're owed or you're not missing invoices that you owe someone else and they're not shutting off, you know, as a vendor to be able to order your product for your cost of goods. So that really helped them. So this individual who is the investor invests in other smaller companies. that's kind of what he likes to do now because he's retired and sold like a I don't know million dollar plus business originally. he came to the person who purchased my company and said well I've got another one for you and it's a med spa who is doing very well and they are looking to make sure that their numbers are correct because their intention down the line is to have multiple locations across the US. So that came on. There was a lot of correction and a lot of fixing because it was a mess.

But but what was the time frame from when they when you first took on moving them from desktop to to online to when they had that conversation say hey we want to take give you more?

It happened pretty quickly actually because I think that it didn't take years right before they was within a month and a half to two months.

That's that's quick.

Yeah, it was fast and it was like he just reached out and was like, "Okay, you guys did such an awesome job with, you know, X, Y, and Z. I've got another one. Can you take a look at this and let us know if this is something that you can handle? You guys have been great to work with." And we did. We brought it on and it needed fixing. It was not accurate. So that was that's what you get when you work with these people because they they build trust and you're able to have a good return and value for what you're providing.

Yeah. And that that brings me back to like from a from the entrepreneur side like a lot of times we give you a small project because we just want to test you. We just want to see do we trust you? Can you really deliver? What is it like to work with you? Are we a good fit? Right? And and and that's and and that's key because like in our back pocket, we got a lot more business we want to give you if you could prove that you could deliver. And we're and we're and we're and and we're working out and and that kind of brings me to the point of you know, so we talked about, you know, serial entrepreneurs being like the ideal client for this type of model, but you know, referral-wise, like you know, a lot of times people say for bookkeepers, oh, talk to your CPAs or whoever is it. What's your experience being, you know, trying to get referrals from like CPAs or other professionals like that versus, you know, getting, you know, referrals from like, you know, serial entrepreneurs.

Yeah. So, that's what I was told too. I was like, you know, 10 years ago, you read the books, they tell you how to start your own business and bookkeeping. They're like, yeah, here's this great, you know, do this, have a website, have, you know, some social media. Get into networking. Networking for me is number one. And so when I even joined the networking groups that I was a part of, we usually had some type of a tax filer or CPA. They really weren't my number one referral source. I think over a decade. I I felt like there were two CPAs that I've worked with in the last decade who actually have been one of them sent one client which was you guys which you know you and your partner and that was years ago. And then another person from that group who was a small-time CPA was really particular about who he would even take on. and he ended up moving out of doing actual CPA for a firm. He ended up doing other things but kept small clients and he got to the point where he wouldn't even file or look at their financials if they didn't work with me. And so those are the only two in 10 years that actually were sending referrals.

Yeah. So that's kind of a myth where like oh CPAs are the best referral sources for for bookkeepers. A lot of those companies already have an in-house bookkeeper. Some of them will and they just kind of are a little leery. You know, they want to make sure that you, you know, what you're talking about that maybe you understand gap accounting and that you understand reconciliation. And I get it. I think that I understand that. I think there's a lot of people who try to get into this industry that maybe don't necessarily have the accounting background that they should, but they feel like maybe it's just all about QuickBooks. It's definitely not you should be able to do accounting the dual entry system in any system. It doesn't matter what the software is because all it is is software. So I can see that. But definitely it's worth you can make their lives a lot easier too if you understand what you know they can just send you emails and you can correspond with them provide the financials for them. That's part of like taking that extra step and that outsource controller instead of it always having to go through the owner. to help them.

Yeah. But but the the beautiful thing that I'm talking about is like serial entrepreneurs. Oh, they know other serial entrepreneurs. They do and when they hear like who do you they ask who do you know who do you have? I need a good bookkeeper. Like even in the crypto space cuz I was in the heavy in the crypto mining and stuff before like you you do a good job for one then everyone asks well who's your bookkeeper? Who's who you helping you do this? And then word gets around and they pass it around. So now everyone in that space wants to wants to come to you. It increases your demand. Again, you're not just providing bookkeeping. You could charge more and they become very good referral sources, much better than CPAs and everything like that. So that's why we like serial entrepreneurs as well.

Yeah, they're great. It's great. They know a lot of other people who are in that similar world.

Yeah. Yeah. There there's so many so many benefits to targeting serial entrepreneurs, but not anyone else is really

Talking about that. All the other courses online and everything, they're not they're teaching you, you know, other things to do, but this is one of those models, one of those little things that Andree figured out that just it just this is this is kind of like her secret sauce. Yeah, it works. It really did. It got me to the point where I could sell a company along with some other things, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's that's good.

Anything else you want to say about, you know, the serial entrepreneur and and and the outsourcing controller, you know, to help them kind of wrap their whole mind about like, should I do this? Should I not do this? Right? Is this going to be better than what I'm already doing? Like, what else can you say about it?

Well, I feel like for sure that whole mindset concept is really important in any type of business that we're in. And knowing that you believe that you are what you say you are. So when you can say, "Oh, I'm an outsource controller and you know that you are." It's easier to bring that on and accept that that's what you're doing. You are providing that service effectively and worth every penny. And the value and seeing just the value that you bring to someone's company or value in time, value in the bottom line, value means so much to people and business owners. And so believing that and knowing that that's what you do. It's it's it's a big part of what you charge and how you charge and what you charge for. Yeah.

And and and and I know so I know your your model, right, is is it's kind of three three-phase. So it's kind of targeting your serial entrepreneurs, positioning your services, not just a bookkeeper, not as a CFO, right? Because CFO is not the answer. Maybe maybe it's great for some people that have that confidence and ability to take that big leap, but for a lot of bookkeepers, they don't. This is that good middle middle ground. But then the the other thing is like one thing you said is like your follow through and your followup. Yes. Is key and especially for serial entrepreneurs because like I said, well, we might give you that first small business, that first small task as a test. But but if you don't follow through and you don't follow up and you don't, you know, you know, deliver, then they're not going to give you the rest of their business, their other the rest of their book of business, right, that they have. And they and they have a, you know, and they're not going to refer their their other serial entrepreneurs because again, entrepreneurs hang out with other entrepreneurs. It's just how it is. They go to they go to big conventions and conferences and and and then people ask you know want to know stuff and they they'll refer. So so that's why talk about how that third pillar is key for growing your business again in a point where you're not getting overwhelmed where a point where you're not having to you know take on more clients and do more work where you can still have that one client but get lots of business from that one client. Correct. Yeah.

So, communication is is is just as vital as who the client is that you're targeting, what you're charging, because, if you don't follow through, people aren't going to stay. They don't see the value in what you're doing, and they don't trust you. Trust equals profitability. So, I learned a long time ago, that you are halfway to a sale if you just simply the simplest thing is just to respond. You're halfway there if you respond. And I have operated that way, for 10 years plus. It's it's down to even the level of the internal of the company that we operated. If someone sends you an email and it has important information that is that's needed for you to complete a task or you know asking you to do something sending a simple received thank you that's all it requires or responding to a text if a client does send you a text in a timely manner. I I try to respond at least within the 24 hours. If it's a new client I will try to respond within 24 hours as well. Even just to simply say, "Oh, hey, I've got your phone call. I'm going to try to give you a call back at this time. Does this work for you?" Or and ask them what their availability is. Because just that helps create trust. That's your first step in creating trust with somebody and business.

But but how do how do you balance that where you want to get back to the client or potential prospect as soon as possible, but you don't want to be tied to your phone 24/7. You don't want to be checking emails in the middle of the night. You don't like How do you balance that?

Oh gosh, I learned that the hard way. I feel like in the beginning I was constantly working after hours. I was responding to people late. And then I finally figured out that in a world that we live in now where boundaries are talked about, it goes in it goes to say with business as well. I found out that I can respond back in this time block, this 9-to-5 time block, and simply say, "I received this. I will touch base with you at this time in the morning." And then you actually do it. The key is to actually do it. Say, do what you say you're going to do. Because you're teaching, not only are you teaching that person where your boundary is, but you also have to respect whatever their boundary is. So maybe they don't like to conduct business before 9:00 a.m. or they are comfortable with an evening, but you still have to be really clear. I know it's hard too because you're trying to get business and you want to keep business. In the long run, I really do feel like people start to see your consistency because that does create consistency when you keep the boundary and then you follow through with the time frames and what you say you're going to do.

But what what do you do like everything always is like urgent in my you know in my mind as a client's minds like it's urgent, I need it now. It's urgent like is it always urgent and they need it right now? And how do you how do you respond to that?

Oh, well, I feel you had people calling you like that. We're like, it's I need it right now, but like you didn't they didn't really need it right now. No, they don't. I feel like that's why it's really important. I don't answer my phone either. Like if somebody's calling me and I am in the middle of something, I will message them back after and say, "Hey, I I saw that you called. Can I can you talk at this time?" Just so that they know that you are responding to them. I feel like in accounting in general, unless it's like, oops, you messed up somebody's payroll or like a wire went out that wasn't supposed to, it really isn't. You're kind of on banker's hours. Because the bank closes other than not now. I mean, we have apps and stuff like that, but you don't nothing is a fire generally speaking. And usually if you are prepared and you're staying on task and stuff like that, it definitely shouldn't be. But, but it's going to happen. But I just try to still communicate with people and still I I I hold my I I I stay pretty true to boundary. I try really hard to do that. So, yeah.

So, you you want to communicate, you know, as soon as possible, but you don't have you don't want to have to be 24/7.

No, because that's what that's what's going to burn you out. And I don't even It got to the point for me that I literally would not even my phone is designed like you know how you have your little phone app guy. It's on your phone. Mine doesn't even show how many messages or on the email, not my text, but on the email. It's set to where I can't see it on the home screen because I'm like I'm not I if if I see that I will be in that space to have to check those 26 messages that have come in you know between however many email accounts all of us have a million and I just I don't do it anymore. I've shut it all off and maybe that's the luxury of doing this for over a decade. I just didn't I just don't I don't think it's necessary to do that.

Oh, PK, you're on mute.

Oh, sorry. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

So, the question then is, you know, people like, "Oh, man. This sounds great. You know, I want to implement this." Like, like where do I start? Like, what what what should I do first? Where should I go? Who should I talk to? Like, what do how do I start this?

Yeah. So, we do have the the $27 that you can purchase to get the templates which which they're getting here. They're already getting. So, this is part.

Okay. So, so I'm just what what's like what would you recommend is my first step? Okay. I want to So, what like like Okay. Like I know you worked with Angie you know. Yes. And Tim so what what did you tell her? What was the first step like where where do we go? We want to implement this.

Yeah. So, first step is to really analyze like the whole try to understand the idea of being an outsource or an outsourced controller. So that identity shift, the mindset shift if it resonates with you. And then as you meet with new clients or joining a networking group. I I really believe wholeheartedly in networking and it doesn't have to do you don't have to necessarily implement it with the existing clients right now. But any new clients that are going to come on, you definitely have, you know, there's a there's a there's a template that we have that's been provided of, you know, questions to ask. And you can kind of hear when people talk and what they're looking for and providing them with, oh, well, we can provide this, this, and this, and this. This really encompasses the outsource controller concept. And then the pricing in that is would be first. So really getting comfortable with that idea of offering that as a service for one and then you're ready when the opportunity presents itself.

Yeah. When you first client interaction, possible client interaction with somebody. So what do you say like okay so for you it's been networking and so what networking groups do you recommend and what do you do if they're like man I've never done networking before I'm I'm an introvert right like this this is not something I naturally do this is not something I've done before like this is scary it is it's terrible how do I hand like is that the first thing I should do or what what do what do you what do you think and how do I do my my experience was I really and I am an introvert by nature. So 10 years ago I was even more so and you would never get me on this. There's just no way. And so I I kind of coined myself as the recovering introvert always, always because even if I have to stand and talk in front of a group for the first time, oh my goodness, I still get nervous and I sound, you know, you're analyzing everything and you're like, "Oh, you sound so dumb." or you sound nervous or you're going to say all the time. I I had to force myself. I had to really put myself in an uncomfortable space. And luckily for me, it was BNI that I gravitated to. It wasn't always successful the first time. You know, I joined one group, wasn't the best fit, met some fabulous people who ended up being really great mentors, are still friends with me, still use my used my bookkeeping services over the last, you know, eight years and have just become really good friends. And they took me under their wings. They helped me learn, you know, to network really well, how to be a good networker. And also just the structure of BNI taught me so much about running business in and just in general.

The group called BNI.

BNI. Yeah. In business. Yeah. For BNI. And one of those things was to really just be genuinely interested in other people and their businesses because you're building trust with those people. It's not going to happen overnight. When you're working in someone's books and you're you're talking numbers, it's a very vulnerable vulnerable place for some people. So knowing that they can trust you, that you have the the background and the education to be able to answer some of their questions. It's a process. I wish I could tell you that it's one and done. Just click on the, you know, the green ex, you know, purchase button. It just isn't like that. So majority of my business has come from word of mouth and a referral over the last decade in bookkeeping.

I know you worked with Angie who was trying to implement this and join BNI and just did not have a good experience. What what explain what happened and like what do you do when you don't have a good experience like what was her experience when she?

Yeah. So, I came on as a as an adviser as a consultant for her, right? And have been doing that for about six months now. And she had to she was tasked, you know, I said, I you got to get more business. So the way that you're going to do that is you've got to you got to get into networking. She's terrified, by the way. And it was scary for her. She's like, I already have enough friends. I don't need more friends. But she did join one group and unfortunately it didn't go as planned. What happened? She she hung in there. She hung in there and then she found another group and they were kind and it went really well. She's now in there. I actually I actually had messaged her today, you know, to see how everything was going and she said I went to BNI and she said it was fine and it was fun and you know she's already done her presentation which she was super nervous about but it it is a process and she just goes and she shows up and does what she's supposed to do and she's doing her networking you know one to ones and lunches and stuff like that to build with people.

And is it weird because I think you said that she tried one group and it just feels like she was such an outsider. She didn't fit in or something like that. Is that that's what's going to happen?

That's it wasn't it was a weird dynamic in that they so in BNI generally when you BNI has one profession in their what we call chapters okay in any certain region. So you can't have like multiple bookkeepers in a chapter. You can't have multiple real estate, you know, realtors and you are interviewed. There's an interview process that you go through. There's code of ethics that you learn in BNI. It's just it's a it's a great all-around business tool I think for learning and for your own business. But so she had done all of those things. She had gone through the interview process. She even paid like some money down and they just kept hanging on and they kept saying that the seat was open and it had sat weeks. We're talking like six weeks had sat with no word back on if she actually was a member. But she had continued to go because you are encouraged when your application is in the process of acceptance to continue to attend and it usually doesn't take that long. I've been in membership groups prior and we never had anyone that was that long and they had a couple other people that would visit and they were still trying to, you know, get different bookkeepers in there. So, we don't know if there was some nepotism going on a little bit. I don't know. I can't say for sure. But so you you just so you want to try to find a group that you feel like you you want to find the right right group and luckily for her it didn't like it didn't leave a bad taste in her mouth or anything cuz there's some people who don't like it. They don't like networking or BNI in general. I have had a good experience with mine. But it really is the people that you the chapters that you join and the type of member that you choose to be because you have a lot of responsibility in how you show up in there and if you get business or not in there, but that's a whole other subject.

Yeah. We we we can do a a separate course just on networking and stuff. But but just for a point like high level overview pointers like I know you say you want to position yourself as an outsource controller but like I know when I was you know looking for something I'm not looking for an outsource controller cuz I didn't know what that is as a serial entrepreneur. So what is it that you typically tell people when you're going when you're talking to this? Like do you still present yourself as a bookkeeper first when talking about this or are you saying you're an outsource controller and people are like well what is that like I I don't I don't think I need that right or what how do you how do you talk about this right?

That's a good question. So in my experience a lot of bookkeepers are kind of in that half full half mode where they're providing a lot of the services that a controller does provide but they're still not all the way in to into that that scope. And when you're talking to other business owners, it really is about educating. It's educating people because they like you in your situation, you didn't know that you even needed that. So when you are presenting yourself or you're talking about people, you say that. And that's like one of the that's the truth. You know, you stand and you say, "Well, I you know, I've experienced that a lot of business owners don't even know that they need the service and that it's out there to be outsourced." So you you learn how to educate people and I think that's one of the first steps is is education for people.

Yeah. I I think for me if I if someone told me like hey there's this there's a group of things where you can hire a bookkeeper that just does like data entry basically and then you can hire a CFO which is like high you know multiple six figure salary. I know a lot of people a lot of entrepreneurs don't need that. They need something that's somewhere in the middle in the gap and and when I hear that it's like yeah that's what I need right if someone said it like that like oh yeah so but what is I don't know what that is and you can say well you know that's kind of what I provided kind of that gap in between and outsource controller and you can kind of explain what that outsource controller does.

Yeah, you talk about the gap. You talk about that gap, which it is. It's a gap. And so you say, well, you know, we provide the same. We do all the the concepts of bookkeeping. However, it's to the next level. It's to that level of other things like making sure that the the taxes are filed for your for your payroll services or it can be making sure that statements are going out to your clientele on a regular basis. Managing the receivables that are coming in. Managing it outgoing. A lot of it is an AP. AP can be a real real wrestle for people who have those type of terms and stuff like that. Obviously, in certain businesses, you don't have that. It's a cash type of business. So, like I said, you're going to find you will find the market for that as you're in these networking groups and you're talking about the gap and you're educating people. Because sometimes they don't even know that they need it. And they do need it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like I said, I I know I need something to help me because I don't, you know, I don't, you know, want to do this myself, but I I know I don't want to just have a bookkeeper. You know what I a lot of entrepreneurs just kind of see as an expense. They don't want to invest in a full-time CFO, but they could see that investing in this middle gap would be very beneficial because it's going to open up their time. The mental capacity is a big thing. Just not having to think about it and just knowing that it's handled is kind of like the key for me.

Well, and in some cases sometimes it's it's more than just the owner. Like for example, the like the med spa companies, they'll usually have the owner who is, you know, the the primary member, maybe it's a partnership owners. Then they'll have like an operations manager. And then when you hear the man, the operations manager go, "Oh god, I'm so glad that I don't have to do any of that that you're doing," which is what we've been hearing, they don't want to deal with any of that. They just want to see the numbers and they're dealing with, you know, making sure the front desk is covered and any clients that come in that have a complaint or, you know, those types of things. They don't necessarily they're not worried about you know making sure that the credit card doesn't gets paid on time or you know those types of things. So it depends on the company but there's definitely education involved in and who you're working with too. So as a controller. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So, let's just say you educated them and they're like this sounds great. Yeah. What what's the next step? Right. Do you do you now set up another appointment with them? And I know that we we've for everyone that's watching this year, we put together templates, which we put together what an engagement letter. We put together a quote sheet. What else? What else do what else do you like what what do you do from there? Someone says, "Okay, this sounds great. I want to learn more." H how does this work?

Yeah. So, as far as how do you present your rates and and that kind of thing. Yeah. So, usually how it works is that quote sheet is extremely important because when you're talking to a potential new client, I always would have the quote sheet, you know, on my desktop or or in front of me even in a print form. And I take notes upon notes upon notes and you ask, you just follow the pattern of those quote sheets and you say, "Okay, so tell me the name of your business." And they'll tell you the name. You'll say, "Tell me a little bit about what you do." Because you want to listen to what they're do, what they do. You want to find out, you know, who's the owners? How do you file? Are you an LLC? You're when did your company get established? And like you just go through this entire process. And then you talk with them about, okay, so what kind of software are you using? Are you using software? Are you including these types of items in your software? You know, your sales, your AP, is there any inventory involved? Are you collecting sales tax? Those types of questions and how they answer that will lead you into what type of a service you can offer to them. And sometimes you can, it's more than just one. Maybe they start out as, well, I think right now I would like to do the the entry basic bookkeeping. And you say, "Oh, well," you know, but then you can give them a quote for both so they can actually see what is encompassed in both. Sometimes that works out, too.

Yeah. So, that you're giving them packages to choose from, right? And and so, and this talk about like I know you talked about this before like hourly versus these packages or value talk about that a little bit like doing hourly as a bookkeeper versus doing it pricing it this way.

Yeah, luckily over the span of I think a decade the hourly concept has really moved away. I feel like it's about the value that you give and not so much the hours because if you are providing a business with a better bottom line ultimately and accuracy, they are not going to care how many hours that took you. They don't care. And if you're timely, if you have a good relationship with them, they trust you, they don't, it doesn't matter. So, it's kind of like I need my books are a mess, right? I need someone to clean it up. Like, I don't know how many hours that is. Like, you're you're not going to bill me like for like you're just going to you're going to just bill me for what it the value, right? Not just hour.

There are situations I will take that back. We do when when we were doing cleanup, we would bill by the hour. We usually would leave it to a point where it was like, well, I think it's going to be because it's just I always liken it to, and I used to say this to my clients, you know, when you go into, and this might be bad, but when you go into a mechanic and you have something wrong with your car, they don't know really what's wrong until the diagnostics are done. They get in there. It's the same thing with bookkeeping and accounting. When you're cleaning up. I can tell you on the surface level by running reports and asking lots of questions, you know, there's my I always say I'm in the business of private detective because I really don't know until I get into those books and get to see what's actually going on how long it will take. So, we do bill we would bill $95 an hour. And then generally if it if I thought that it was going to get up to a super excessive amount, I would give them a heads up. Remember, it's about communication. And letting them know when this is one and done. Like when we're done with this, we're going to do smooth sailing moving forward. There's going to be a process in place so that you don't have to be in this place ever again. And I used to tell them, you're either going to pay somebody to clean it up or you're going to pay the IRS too much money or underpay them. So, you should probably spend the money where it's worth it and get it done right because it will it will come back. Pay the IRS by because of penalties because you didn't do it right or you overstated your income. It's late or or you've seen people double doubling their income when it really shouldn't have been doubled and so you're paying more taxes than you should have. Yes. Or understating it because they were maybe they're a company that has say like they collect sales tax and they've been reporting it under or over. Oh. Oh, so the key is literally, you know, you're you're letting them know, yes, we are going to clean this up to the point where you don't have to worry about understating or overstating, you know, when you report your taxes. You'll probably be able to you more than likely you get to file your taxes on a deadline. There's no extensions necessarily unless you choose to do that. And that just in itself for a lot of people right there gives you a sense of of comfort. Yeah. To get it over with. It's pay in the it's the year prior. Done. Over. Got it. Right. Yeah.

That's So, we'll we'll do a we'll do a bonus session where we actually look at the quote sheet. Yeah. You know, the engagement letter. We'll do some like role playing and and what you would say. But essentially, so you first met them at some kind of, you know, networking or referral. Do you give them your prices right away or you wait for a separate separate call to go over the quote sheet and show them the prices at that time?

Yeah. No, it always is a conversation for me first. They'll usually call and and they'll say, "Hi, I was referred to by so and so." And I'll say, "Oh, you know, that's great. So tell me about your business." And as I'm talking to them, it can be that simple, you know, as that first phone call. And then it can lead into well, we can be because a lot of people will like to do Zoom calls to see who they're talking to. And that's a great way because you have the inflection, you have interaction, you get to show your personality, you know, your knowledge and build trust. It's all about building trust in the end. So when you get to and you get to analyze, there's been situations where we've been on consultant calls and people will let you see their books and you get to see what's going on to kind of help them analyze what's happening. So usually it's like it's like most consulting things. It doesn't usually happen right off the gate unless they already know what they want. But I'm going to tell you right now, they don't know what they want. So you're there to be the expert to tell them what they need and what they want.

Yeah. Again, we know we need something. We need help from entrepreneurs. Like I just don't want to be doing this myself. Yep. I don't know what I need. I just know I don't want like another expense that's like doing basic data entry like a bookkeeper. I I just I want someone to just handle it, right? And so you give them you give them the prices or they could see the prices on their quote sheet when you when you meet with them. Is that how that works?

Yeah, we'll I usually will they'll get to see it because they have the templates and I use pretty colors and we'll put like a little detail of what in red because sometimes people don't pay attention. You should if you're a bookkeeper in accounting but usually try to make it more straightforward and that's the first thing that will leave to go out to a client and I will be again communication. I will tell the client even in the email, here is the quote that we discussed, you know, if you'd like to move forward, let me know. If you have more questions, let me know. The next step is, and then you will provide what the next step is, which is an engagement letter that will cover a full scope of work, breaks down the actual fees, and also talks about what is not included because we definitely want to include that. And then that person signs, your firm signs. I always operated on a no contract because I wanted people to stay because they want to stay and I also wanted people to leave because I wanted them to leave. So it was it was never contractual. It was just really important that that that engagement letter was the final thing that was really straightforward with what would be included in a full scope of work.

Yeah. I I find that, you know, because they they'll people will always ask you for one more thing. Oh, can you just do this? Oh, what about can you just do like but if it's not stated that you that's not included or if you do need this service, here's how much you're going to charge for it. That way you could you want to have that clear right up front. Otherwise, some clients will just keep asking and asking and asking for more and more and more. That's beyond the scope of work. It's true. Yeah. Right.

Okay. So, you go ahead. If you ever redefine your terms, which has happened in the years, some businesses will cut back, some businesses will be growing and that leaves it so that you know when you're communicating with those people, it leaves it so that you can renegotiate that engagement and and that. So, you want the engagement.

Yeah. So, you you you they show the price, they agree to the price, you send an engagement letter, you sign it. How do you collect payment? I know this is different. Some people are you sending invoices and trying to collect or what how do how does your in your model, how do you collect payment?

So I always gave people the option to I said, you know, we do we do a recurring billing on a monthly basis, but they can pick the date. Sometimes I'll suggest, you know, maybe the 10th or the 25th that your card would be build automatically every single month. And most every single client, they never had any issues with that. I did have one client who stayed on an invoice. I don't know why because they paid it faithfully, like faithfully for seven years. So we never really had an issue with that. But when you're doing cleanup work, I usually will require sometimes I'll require a retainer down if it's a large if I think it's going to be a large project. And then I

Has there ever been a play a time where you didn't get paid for the work you did?

Yes. What happened? It was a lot. Yeah. I It was And it wasn't something you created. You collected a credit card ahead of time. I did a retainer. That retainer paid for only a very small portion of the work and I had to end up writing it off because those people never never paid back and they actually ended up claiming bankruptcy on that company.

Red flag. We should go into red flags. That was one that was definitely I should have listened to my gut on that one and I didn't.

Talk talk about that. You don't because I know I know when bookkeepers are first starting you're just hustling trying to get any client that you can possibly get. Yeah. Right. Is that the right mindset? At some point, you get to a point where you're established. You don't have to take on any client, but in your model, you're not just taking on any client you can possibly get.

No, no, no, no. That's why it's so good to work with serial entrepreneurs because they generally have cash flow when they're investing, you know, $200,000 in other companies. Their cash flow and how they run a business is usually pretty right there in itself is evident like to me that's usually number one is I always like to see cash flow to me profitability and stuff like that is super important when you look at a P&L but I like to look at a cash flow because that tells me the combination between a P&L and a balance sheet so I know exactly what they're doing and how their money's flowing. That's another topic. Anyway, so when you're working with that serial entrepreneur, you don't get stuck in that situation where you didn't listen to yourself because they've gone through three other bookkeepers and every one of them had a problem. That's a red flag. It's never them is a red flag. Or like when they're what's the what's the phrase? Stealing from Paul to pay Peter or whatever. That's a huge red flag. So, yeah, those are the things that I I did learn. Yeah. Yeah. I did eventually get to the point where I knew that I was like, "Oh, this is not going to work out." And I would actually give them the notice 30 days ahead and always did it in a formal letter. You don't just I never just quit doing. No. Yeah. That's a whole other story. Yeah. We'll do a separate thing on just like what to look out for and that could be something big. But but definitely trust your gut, right? You could even look it's also like hiring, right? If you see someone that's constantly getting a new job every nine months, it's usually that's the pattern. They're probably only going to work for you for nine months. So, your like you said, your clients have been with you for years and years. Long time. Long a very long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

Okay. So, you're collecting you're collecting credit cards. You're not sending in invoices and you're not trying to chase down payments every month. You're just automatically building them.

It's automatic. Is that the standard practice that most bookkeepers do or is that just something you do or

You know what's funny is I don't honestly I'm not positive. I know that the last company that we were involved in because we could see the billing in there, they were so sporadic and all over the place. I don't know what is happening, but and so those people were not. I've seen other people that were. But it's it's simple. It's straightforward. You don't have to worry about the only thing you have to watch is if their cards expire and you got to get a new card. Yeah. But they're usually happy to give it to you because they're happy with the service.

So, you you collect a authorization form, right? Have their card on file. It's a business one. Yep. And what do you what do you what do you bill them with? You use QuickBooks?

I do. Yeah. I use their merchant services inside. There's other services. There's Stripe. There's, you know, if you do those, you're going to have a little bit more entry, double entry going on to make sure your books are accurate. But, I used the merchant services within the system. A lot of people are like, "Oh, the fees are so much." I'm like, I know they're a little bit more, but let me tell you, in the grand scheme of things, for me not to have to double entry and reconcile in another system, it's worth every penny for me. Yeah. So, yeah.

Well, we're we're we're coming up on the end here. You know, I think we gave kind of the high level overview on everything. I think you we talked about the mindset that they need to have. We talked about who they should be targeting, which is the serial entrepreneurs. We talked about the positioning of filling that gap as an outsource controller, right? We talked about, you know, how to present, you know, present it with the pricing and and how to collect payment. Is there anything that you think like we still haven't covered or that they need that you want to talk about that would help them so that they could start implementing this starting this week with their next potential prospect? Is there, you know, or any other pointers or anything you think?

Yeah. No, I feel like just to doing the implementation of this these pillars is pretty straightforward. It's designed that way. I feel like it's u changing your mindset, re recognizing who you are and what you actually can provide and do and recognizing what you can build and then who who pays for that, right? A serial entrepreneur. And then get out there and start networking and just see where it takes you. Honestly, it's great.

Is is it But is this something like even though I start trying it this week, like is my is it like does it going to take some time to figure out how how this works in my business?

Not to figure out how it's going to work. No, I think that you will want to, you know, the networking side of things definitely will take some adjustment if you're not somebody who's ever done that before. It did for me. Like I said, I'm not super I wasn't super I could stay in the in the shadows honestly, but it's well worth it. It's just worth it at the end of the day because the reward that you get by knowing that you are providing a value for someone else that you're collaborating with someone that you're easing someone else's burdens and that you're building relationships that are long-lasting your profitability for your own company. It's hands down worth it. Yeah. Worth it. Again, you're gonna have some growing pains because that's normal in business, but it's worth it.

Again, who do you who do you think this system works best for? Like what kind of bookkeeper? Just just a recap, right?

Yeah. So, best is going to be individuals who, like I said, have been in accounting field, maybe not owning their own company yet, but for two to two to five years in some form, you know, in their accounting. Maybe they have their degree, maybe they have their bookkeeping certificates are great. I would highly recommend that. But have already established a company, a year, two years, and they have maybe three to five, 10 clients, could be just them, could be them and two other subcontractors that they've hired. That's really who would benefit from this. And then even the larger companies if they're looking to add another type of service to have a higher available, it works that way too because they already have established clientele and so that works as well.

Yeah. And and just just to recap like this is just a different model, right? And this is a a model that we don't see a lot of people teaching right now. We see a lot of people talking about CFO advisory services. A lot of people talking about how to get clients for their bookkeeping, but they're not teaching this model, outsource controller. They're not teaching serial entrepreneurs. And so, it's a different model. And so, this something you could either try on, especially if what you're currently doing is not working for you, or you've gotten to a certain point and you just can't grow, or you just been frustrated because you're overworked and you're being underpaid or not as respected. This is a model to try on. And like I said, if you don't like it, you could always go back to what you're already doing, right? You you just try it on and if if you don't like it, go back to what you're already doing and maybe you get better results. But for Andree, this model is what, you know, she built her business on, built it for over 10 years, got it to a point where it was a well-oiled machine doing six figures in revenue a year, if not more, and ultimately allowed her to sell it. Yeah. Because it didn't the business didn't fully rely on her being there 24/7 to run. Correct. Right.

So So that's great. It's rewarding. I feel like it's definitely it's a breath of fresh air almost because you're like, "Oh, like the light bulb goes off." When you figure out who to target. When you figure out how to bill, oh man, the stress of not knowing what to bill can be literally keep you up at night. And and then not feeling cheapened, you know, like, oh, I just did all of this and I don't feel like it's going to I'm going to reap that reward u financially for all the time that I've spent doing it and the knowledge that you gain. People don't see, you know, your clients don't see when you lay awake at night worried about u missing a deadline or sales and use tax payments or, you know, I need to reconcile this. I got to find this. They don't see all of those things and those things are super important and they should be included in the value that you that you're billing and for other people.

Yeah. So, so our goal with this course was to provide everything you need to go ahead and you know learn this within this weekend and then start implementing it this week. Now, sometimes people don't feel fully confident on doing it on their own. Some some people can take this and we'll run with it and they'll start doing it and they'll start growing their business and they'll they'll be perfect. But some people just might want a little more handholding or maybe they might want, you know, to pick your brain Andree a little bit. So, we put together something where you can, you know, sign up for a a one-hour implementation call with Andree, and we're doing it at a very reasonable rate to do it for 1 hour. And you can have Andree just kind of dissect your business, where you're at, what your problems are, and then come up with a plan on how to implement this or fix anything that so that you can start taking this on. So, if you want to do that, we'll have a link somewhere around this page, around this video, where you can sign up for that. There's a charge of $197 to do that. You know, Andree's hourly fee for a 1-hour consulting call like that is is usually a lot higher, but because you bought this course and took the time to go through it and made it through to the end, we're going to give you a special deal to work with that because our goal is to help you know, implement this as as soon as possible. And if you don't feel confident, you just need to talk it through more, then Andree can will be happy to help you out with that. For sure. So, we'll we'll have that. We'll have some other resources, like I said, a role playing call on how to use the the quote sheet and the the engagement letter, how to follow up on that. You'll have access to the actual quote sheet that you could use and modify for your your thing as a template and the engagement letter. And then we're also going to have the school community where you can come in and you know ask questions there. We'll have to we you you'll we'll have a link where you'll learn more about how to get access to that and then also some other resources to help you. So, our real goal is to help as many bookkeepers be able to use this new model and just fix a lot of the problems that you know a lot of bookkeepers just weren't taught how to build a a business like this and and this was Andree's model and it's worked for over a decade and got it to a point where she was able to sell it.

So, any any last anything last comments or anything you want to say, Andree, before we let everybody go here?

You know, I just really appreciate everybody doing things to better their own businesses and that they see their potential and I am happy to to help with that because I know it's possible. I've done it and it's very very rewarding in the end. It really is. And I'm just grateful to be able to help other people now be successful. Yep. Yep. That's great.

And and and the goal here also is we we'll there's a lot of other things that Andree does that can help, you know, like some people want to learn about crypto, right? And attracting crypto clients like that. So, we can we'll put something together for those people that want to do that. And there's other, you know, high net worth individuals, how to attract them using trusts and stuff like that. We'll have more resources available there. So, so there's a lot of things that we'll be able to do, but I think the number one thing is implement this so that you could start, you know, getting paid what you're truly worth and not feel bad about it and be able to take this on starting this week. So, if you if you're if you're ready to do that or you want more help, we can sign up for a call with Andree and we can schedule that. And with that, that's it we have for now. So, thanks everybody for joining in and again, very very thankful that you came and and took this course. And if you have any other questions, we'll have resources where you can reach out or you can schedule a call with Andree to to get more information on that. So, thanks everybody and we'll talk with again with you soon.