Transcription
(Jim) Graham, this is a demonstration of narrative therapy, which falls within the concepts of both social constructionism and post-modern approaches to therapy. Ah... I noticed that in this particular session, you focused a lot on the development of multiple stories within the family and took some time moving towards an externalization. And I'm wondering if you would just comment on that.
(Graham) Yeah, I'd like to try to move very slowly in defining what the problem is because often where people are starting with their first definition of what the problem is, through conversation, dialogue with each other, some of that can change and they can even influence each other's ideas about that. Which I saw on the video that they had very different stories about what the problem was, and then as they each tell their story, then they may be influencing each other's definition of that problem and then start moving, seeing if there is a consensual agreement within the family of what to name the problem. And then start to explore in that externalized way in terms of what those effects of the problem are on them and to some degree start to find out ways in which they have an effect on the problem.
(Jim) So, while externalization may be a very important process within the narrative therapy model, rushing into it prematurely can simply make the whole experience seem artificial.
(Graham) Absolutely. And even you might be three or four sessions down the road and find out you've been working with one definition that no longer fits any longer. So I think it's important for the therapist to be willing at any point to abandon a particular definition of the problem and find one that is a better fit. Now, as the session has evolved, one of the things I also like about it, and I think you can see some of this in the tape, is that it invites them to not be so much in conflict with each other, but it's a conflict of different stories within the family and the stories that exist outside the family as well.
(Jim) Sure, in this particular case, the societal stories around gay and lesbian experiences are really strongly impacting this family.
(Graham) Right. And could result in them kind of turning and distrusting and operating out of a fear-based story with each other in times when that's not really necessary. Maybe necessary for them to operate in that way with the world around them, but that it could start creeping into their lives and relationships with each other in ways that aren't necessary.
(Jim) Graham, thank you. I really like the sensitive development of the externalization process in this video.
(Graham) Okay, so John, Cassandra, Beverly, what I want to do is get a sense of what you think is the problem. I would like to hear from each of you, and one of the things that I do is take notes and try to jot down some of what you're seeing, and you are welcome at the end of the session to take whatever it is that I write down. I'm not writing about you; I'm just trying to get some things down verbatim as you say them. As we have conversation, and I hear from each of you about your understanding of what the problem is, then I'm thinking that we'll take a look at your relationship with the problem. And together, we may come up with some way to call the problem something that makes sense to all of us. Then, we can look at the effects that the problem is having on all of your lives, and go from there. So, whoever would like to start, give me a sense of how you're identifying the problem that's brought you here.
(Beverly) (To Cassandra) Would you like to go first?
(Cassandra) Sure. Well, basically, Beverly and I are life partners, and John is our son. We both birthed him, but he came out of my body technically. So he is our son. We had to go through the legal process of having Beverly adopt John, so he is our son completely now.
(Graham) Okay, right.
(Cassandra) But basically, John has a friend Gary who has asked him to come join the congregation at a fundamentalist Baptist church.
(Graham) Right.
(Cassandra) And Beverly and I are concerned about what he'll be hearing and exposed to while he's there.
(Graham) Okay. And you have concerns about what he's going to hear when he goes to this church with Gary. Could you say more about what kinds of concerns you have about what he would hear?
(Cassandra) Yeah. You know, we live in a relatively secluded area now, but before, we lived in a neighborhood where a lot of the neighbors would put out signs, quoting the Bible and condemning us to hell, because we are lesbians.
(Graham) Right.
(Cassandra) And so, I guess I'm concerned that he's going to go in this church, and while he's hearing some really positive things about Jesus and love, he's going to hear that we're an abomination and that we're going to hell, some really awful things too. And these people have also been known to abduct homosexual children and torture them to try to get them to change into heterosexuals. So, I just don't think it's a safe environment.
(Graham) Right. So you're worried about his safety and the kinds of things he's going to hear.
(Cassandra) Um-hum.
(Graham) Right. Okay. And is this unique to just this particular church, or is this something that you have to be worrying about and thinking about when he goes to school, or when he participates in some other kind of activity? Or is there something that is particularly unique about this, or is this something that is kind of a lifestyle that you have to live with?
(Cassandra) Well, I think it's a lifestyle. You know, I worry about it all the time, but this is one particular instance where this group has been known to hate homosexuals.
(Graham) Um-hum. Right. So it's not going to be a surprise. You are almost expecting that that's what he's going to bump into, come in contact with if he goes here.
(Cassandra) Correct.
(Graham) And you're wanting to tell him not to do it? What is it that you're wanting?
(Cassandra) I want to tell him not to do it. Yeah.
(Graham) Or are telling him not to do it?
(Cassandra) Yeah. Basically.
(Graham) So you've already said, "For your safety, I don't want you to go"? Is that where that comes from?
(Cassandra) Right, that there's no need for him to place himself in a hate community.
(Graham) Hate community: That is a real telling kind of term. Again, is that something, the hate community, that goes beyond the church, or is it your sense that, in general, you live in a culture that's a hate community for you?
(Cassandra) I think in general that we live in a society that's very uncomfortable, you know, with our lifestyle, but this particular church, I would consider them to be a hate community.
(Graham) Okay, right. So, John, your mom has told you that she considers this a hate community, and she doesn't want you going there, and the problem is, I guess, that maybe you'll go to this hate community anyway. What's your sense of what the problem is?
(John) I wouldn't want to go if my friend Gary wasn't really encouraging me to go with him. How this started out was, about six months ago, he and his parents started going to this church. And they got saved; they got dunked in the water. They've been going, and Gary has been a really strong friend of mine. He hasn't been judgmental; he hasn't been unsupportive at all, versus a lot of the other kids at school who just heckle the death out of me. I have been going on Wednesday nights to go and hang out with Gary at the church. And I don't get the sense that I'm trying to be brainwashed or anything like that. I want to spend time with my friend who's been really supportive, with a family who's been really supportive of me. I don't get a sense that... that that's a problem. I just want to spend more time with these folks who have been so supportive.
(Graham) Right. And so really, you kind of have a different story. Your mom has this story of "You're going to go into this hate community, and these people are going to kind of assault you, and it won't be safe." And your story is, "I just want to go somewhere with a friend of mine that's been strong and supportive."
(John) Yeah.
(Graham) So, you have two different stories about what this would mean to go to the church.
(John) I mean, having been to the church with Gary and having gone and spent Wednesdays there with him, I don't feel unsafe. I don't feel brainwashed. I feel as though... that's something I did have to keep secret, and I didn't feel right about keeping these things from my moms. And so, things didn't get bad until I actually was honest. And that's when things started going to hell.
(Graham) Right. So you might learn from this not to be honest, I don't know.
(John) But I want to be honest with them. That's what's right. And I mean, part of what they are talking about in this church is being honest. The things that they've taught me...
(Graham) Right.
(John) These are my two moms, and I love them, just like any other kids love a mom and a dad. I don't see what's going on with them as something that's wrong. And they've taught me honesty, just like the folks at this church have.
(Graham) So going to the church seems like that's more consistent with what you think they've taught you.
(John) In some ways.
(Graham) Yeah. To go where you've made your own decision about whether it's safe, and not being brainwashed, and to go where you feel like people can, particularly Gary, is someone who can support you and is a friend. That seems consistent with what they've taught you.
(John) I've been taught to choose my friends wisely. And to really think about what other people are telling me and trying to teach me.
(Graham) Right.
(John) That's something that you all have really instilled in me, and Gary has been what I would consider my best friend. He has been somebody who has been really supportive.
(Graham) What happens when you hear his kind of story? Your story is "Be careful, you might not be safe." And his story is, "I know how to make decisions, and I know how to read the situation. This is me doing what I think is right, and in fact, it's congruent with what you've taught me." What happens when you hear how his story is different than your story?
(Cassandra) I don't know. It kind of makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable in a way, because, you know, I feel comfortable that he feels that we've instilled this into him that he can, you know, choose his friends wisely and that he does take into account the way that people can be and everything; but it's also... it's almost like I want him to understand where I am coming from so badly that there's an incongruence there.
(Graham) Right. Do you get that she is worried for your safety?
(John) I get that she's uncomfortable. And I get that this community has caused both of my mothers a lot of harm.
(Graham) Right. Well, I want, Beverly, to give you an opportunity to say something too. But maybe before we move to that: (to John) It sounded like you were saying that school can be just as much a hate community potentially as a church.
(John) Yeah. And that's something that she agrees with too. It's all around us that people don't understand what gays and lesbians go through. I mean, having lived with a loving family for sixteen years now, I don't feel that way, but I do have to be careful about who I talk to about it. And things like that.
(Graham) Okay. Beverly, what's your story about what's the problem?
(Beverly) Well, Cassandra and I have done everything we can, really, to raise John right. And I want to trust in his ability to make decisions, but I'm really concerned. I'm afraid that what's going to happen is, you know, he's going to get in the church. I know Gary is his best friend; I'm afraid he's going to get hurt by Gary. They've only been, shoot, six months since they've gotten into this process. They may evolve and may change. You know, it's one thing to be taught that this is wrong. I'm afraid he's going to internalize it and begin to hate himself. And you know, Cassandra and I have had to deal with a lot of external hate, and it's easy to internalize it. We've had to work really hard to keep it outside of us. And I don't want that for our son.
(Graham) Right. It's funny that you mention that, because I was thinking some of the same kind of thing. What's external can become internal. And it's kind of insidious that you end up doing to yourself what they started off doing to you. And as I was listening, I was wondering if we could get kind of a handle for what we might call the problem. Words that popped out for me were worry, fear, kind of having to live this careful kind of lifestyle. The world is constantly giving you messages that you need to be worried about something. You need to be fearful about something. Any of those words fit, or maybe you have some words of your own we could come up with, kind of saying what it's like for you to live in the world with what's going on in the external? Any of those words... worry... careful... fear...?
(Beverly) Well, fear is definitely for me.
(Graham) Fear fits best for you?
(Beverly) I'm afraid for John.
(Graham) Right. Okay. (To Cassandra) You're shaking your head "yes" with that one?
(Cassandra) Yeah. I think fear also, you know, is a really big one. But being careful, too, because, you know, we really try to stay focused and paying attention to what's outside of us, because if we don't, we can get hurt.
(Graham) How about for you, John? Any of those words or any other words?
(John) I think about the word "hard."
(Graham) Hard?
(John) It's all really hard. I come home, and I love my family. And regardless of where I go, there are places where I'm told I'm not supposed to, or that I shouldn't. That's hard.
(Graham) Yeah. So I am wondering if this kind of "hard" or "fear" or "worry" started to be something that worked its way inside your family, how that would affect your relationships? Like, how would fear get you to look at what John's doing about going to church? If fear were to have some real powerful influence over you, so that it affected the way you looked at him or got you to think about what might happen to him, how do you think fear would try to have some control or have some kind of affect on you in terms of your relationship with John?
(Beverly) I'm afraid it's going to distance us.
(Graham) How would it do that? How would fear get you to be distant from your son? How would this external fear that comes from other people's behavior work its way into affecting how close or distant you are with your son?
(Beverly) I don't really know, but there's just that feeling that it's going to somehow become a wedge between us. And I don't want that.
(Graham) Right. Right.
(John) See, I'm afraid if I... if it came to a point where I was told to not even spend time with Gary, if I let go of my friend and I get mad about that, I'm afraid I'm going to take it out on them.
(Graham) Um-hum. So like somehow fear could get them to mistrust your judgment about who to be with and who to know?
(John) Maybe.
(Graham) I don't know. I'm kind of putting those words out there.
(Cassandra) Well, no, when you were saying that, that was what I was thinking was that I've stopped trusting his judgment. You know. It's almost like I feel that I should make the decision for him...
(Graham) Right.
(Cassandra) ...because I don't trust that he can make the right one.
(Graham) So fear could have a way of getting to think that it's about John, when it's really not about John. It's this fear that's coming in and having these kinds of affects and influences on your relationships.
(Cassandra) Um-hum.