E233: Our Most Viral Tips (That Actually Changed People’s Sex Lives)

Let's chat about mushy broccoli. The mushy broccoli problem. Let's talk vegetables. You are not eating enough vegetables. [laughter] I mean, that's probably true. Yeah, true. That's not quite what this podcast is about. That would be funny if we just made a hard pivot.

Yeah. Into like nutrition. Yeah. We We actually have a broccoli sponsor we want to tell you about. The broccoli lobby. The broccoli lobby is on board with Pillow Talks. [laughter] We're pushing cruciferous veg. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks [music] podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups [music] and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours. Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, [music] hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

So, we had the idea recently that it would be fun to create a best of episode. I think podcasts are always tricky because for new people who are coming in, you're kind of like, I don't really know where to start. Like, where the heck do we start? Yeah. Do I go all the way back to the beginning? This is our 233rd episode, so it's a [laughter] long way to go back. That's a lot of episodes. I would be intimidated by that. I'm not sure I would want to go all the way back to the beginning, honestly. That's like that would be like years of of back catalog to listen to. But we always hear from people that do and I'm I'm impressed by you.

No, we recently got a DM from somebody who was like, "I spent the last two months listening to every episode and now I'm fully caught up." I was like, "That's a lot of us in your ear." You're really knowledgeable [laughter] now. You're like this person who's done [clears throat] that like they're dangerous. They're dangerous in bed in a good way. Dangerous. Yeah. Dangerous. They know. They know everything. They [laughter] know everything that we know. Not everything. Oh, we we don't have we might have a couple couple tips and tricks that [laughter] don't make it into the podcast.

Okay. So, we wanted to make this like best of episode that would be good as a start here for people, but also as a refresher for regular listeners, too. Like you might not listen to every episode every week or you listen to one, you know, years ago and there was this tip that you really liked at the time and then forgot to actually take any action on it. or I mean probably you don't even know what the best of the best of us is. Let us tell you what all the best things are.

So what we did is we turned to our Instagram community and we said okay we want to make this best of episode. So tell us what is the most powerful impactful thing that you've learned from us? And I I actually wrote I was like, you know, if a friend of yours, if you were recommending our podcast or our work to a friend of yours, what would you tell them? Like, oh, you have to start with this or like this tip totally changed my life. This tip is so valuable. So, we gathered them all together. We looked for, you know, what were the absolute most popular things and we are putting them all together into this episode.

You know what? I also want to show up my very best today in this best of episode. And right before we started, I was like, "Oh, you know what? I forgot to take my my Invisalign out and my rubber band." And I was like, "I don't think it really impacts my speech." I was about to tell you it does. [laughter] It does. And um, yeah, we're need to take a quick break for you. We're going to take it out. Okay. Yeah. And I'm back. Magic. Unencumbered in my mouth. You sound way better. Thanks, babe. Thanks, babe. I feel better. [laughter] You're almost done with your Invisalign training. I am so close. And then I truly will be the best version of myself. Wow. It's all downhill from here. No, I mean I could keep getting better. The best version of myself I've ever been up till now. Okay. Okay. You know, got you got to always leave room for improvement or new developments, new technology, new whatever. News and technology. Okay.

All right. So, these are not in any particular order either. We just picked the most popular ones. Okay. So, first we have to talk about the [ __ ] first rule. This isn't even ours. Actually, I know it does feel like a little bit embarrassing [laughter] to put something that's not ours into our best of episode, but we've made it ours and we've made it ours in a way. So, I always like to give credit where credit is due. The original place where we heard about the [ __ ] first rule was from Dan Savage. And the whole idea behind that, that the way that he shared it is have sex before you go out on a date night. go out to dinner, go to a party because we all have to be real with ourselves. We get full, we get bloated. If you're drinking sometimes you get a little too drunk and then you come home and it's just like it's not the greatest time for intimacy. You want to put on your PJs and watch Netflix instead, right?

Yeah. Despite the fact that most of us have this idea in our head, oh yeah, the time for sex is after date night. The time for sex is when we get home from the party. And it's like, yeah, maybe that's true when you're 18 years old and you're kind of operating at full energy, you know, like 120% I'm so psyched on life kind of thing. But like for most of us once we get a little bit older, you know, start like working jobs and living real life, all of a sudden it's like, oh man, I'm up past my bedtime and I'm tired. Right? So it's like we got to think differently than we used to. And what used to work in the past doesn't always work anymore in the future. And maybe even the stuff that we did in the past, like it might have been suboptimal.

Like if you if you were in a relationship and sex was important to you, like yeah, why wouldn't you prioritize that over doing something that you where you know it's going to be late, you're going to be tired, you're going to have other factors like food and drink working against you. Yeah. So I loved the original rule when I heard it. It was just that perfect little piece of wisdom of, you know, oh my god, yeah. We've all been there. We all know, you know, we have these great intentions before date night starts and then you come back and you're like, I I just don't want to.

I mean, actually, just think back. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I did want to say like, think back to early in our relationship. I feel like we had so many not so many, but we had a couple of our first like tiffs, especially like when a little alcohol was involved back in that day. There were there were a number of arguments that I can remember back in that [ __ ] hole of a apartment I used to live in in San Francisco that revolved around sex and I one or both of our readiness or lack thereof for it when it was like 2:00 a.m. in the morning. Yeah. [laughter] And it was like those situations where you wake up the next day and you both look at each other and you're like, "Oh my god, what the [ __ ] were we arguing about? That was so stupid." It's so embarrassing cuz it was like, yeah, neither of us like neither of us were in any shape to be doing that or wanting to do that. And yet somehow we got into an argument about it because one person thought they wanted it more than the other. The other person was trying to say they're tired and like, yeah, of course you're tired. You're drunk and it's 2 a.m.

Yeah. I mean, we've also, if you really want to get into it, we [gasps] we had one pretty bad fight where we tried to when we were not in a place to be and it did not go well. But yeah, let's say there were a lot of factors involved and I had zero business Mhm. I had zero business getting sexy with you because I fell asleep. Yes. In the middle of it. In the middle of it. That was not fun. Yeah. You know, I I'm I'm sober now. I can look back on those times and and laugh. Um, but I think that that happens for a lot of people and yeah, I mean, like I Yeah, I'm not telling you like how you should live your life in terms of what you eat or drink or whatever, but in terms of how you have sex, absolutely prioritize it first.

Okay. So, yeah, going back to the original rule, it was just that perfect little here's something so small and simple you can do. to have it before you go out on date night. So, we loved that. And the more we thought about it, we were like, you know, this shouldn't just apply to date night. This should be really like a life motto, a way that we live our lives is [ __ ] first, like putting sex first. Because I think so often what happens with sex in long-term relationships is we leave it until the very end of the evening. And similar to most of us have this kind of script in our heads of oh date night is like going out to dinner and then you come home and you get sexy. A lot of us have this script in our heads that sex is this thing that we do at the very end of the night. But again, we have to be realistic with ourselves. By the time you are crawling into bed at the end of the night, you are exhausted. Y you've had a long day. Your partner's had a long day. You want to go to sleep. you're thinking about how much sleep you can get before you have to wake up to your alarm the next morning. It's just a very tough time to get excited for sex. And so most couples don't wind up having sex in those moments and then they feel really guilty and bad like, "Oh my god, we're never having sex. We're in this dry spell." And but then they wake up the next day and repeat the whole pattern all over again.

Or one person maybe does try to initiate or maybe does it in a kind of roundabout way and the other partner says no. And this just furthers another potential dynamic, which is that one partner is always trying to initiate and the other partner is always trying to say no. Or the other partner's like, "Oh, like how come you can't read the room?" And the other partner is like, "Well, I'm not like I don't I'm not supposed to be a I'm not a mind readader, right?" Like, and so this these are just such common dynamics that get so exacerbated by waiting until the very end. I'm not going to say that if you start, you know, if you start [ __ ] first, all of a sudden that dynamic is going to go away cuz that, you know, that's a really deep dynamic that like one person always wants it, the other person never wants it. Um, or one person, you know, can't read the room or whatever. But this will definitely improve that situation.

So, the way that we adapted [ __ ] first is to try to prioritize sex as early in the evening or even in the day as you possibly can. Now, obviously, everybody's schedules are different. So, we're not saying like you have to do it at this specific time, but the idea is let's prioritize it. We all have a million things on our to-do list, a million ways that we should be spending our time, but let's try to put sex higher up on that list rather than treating it as this thing of like, oh, well, maybe if we get the time, you know, maybe at the very end of the night, we'll get around to it. This is about like seeing sex as something that's valuable and worthy and like worth making the space in our lives for. So for some people maybe that's you know like if you don't have kids maybe it's hey as soon as we get home from work that's a great time for us to be intimate with each other. If you do have kids maybe it's hey literally all that we can prioritize it over is like scrolling on our phones at night or zonking out in front of Netflix. [clears throat] That's great too. Um, but like the idea is you're showing yourself and your partner sex is valuable. I want us to prioritize it over some of the other things in life.

You know, we've actually recently in the last couple weeks, we've even taken this a step further and created a whole new thing. Do we do we even want to tell the people what we're doing? We've been experimenting with something. Okay, you can tell a little bit, but like we can't claim this as a this is not a best of technique yet because we are still testing it. We It's us taking [ __ ] first to the next level to to another level. Like it's it's a new concept [laughter] coming out of being birthed by [ __ ] first. This is sounding really weird. Okay, what do a quick little recap? Okay. So, I mean, I think like I think that this for me what got me thinking about this is that the you know the the the [ __ ] first concept that Vanessa was just talking about how we've extended it to you know beyond just date night and whatever like can we look at every day like how could we prioritize it first and I think that's so important especially as you know we have more and more technology in our lives if you look back if you look back like before TV like what do you think what did couples do Right? Like you you work, you you eat, you're home, you have kids or you don't have kids, you put the kids to bed, right? And then like what do you what do you have to do? Maybe you could read a book, newspaper. Newspaper, turn some butter. Turn some butter or have sex, right? And so like there were fewer decisions to make and now there are more and more things. Oh, do I like talk on the phone? Do I scroll on my phone? Do I look at Instagram? Um, do I watch TV? I mean, God, even for a long time with TV, it was like, yeah, you always had TV, but like maybe there was nothing on for two hours that you cared about on a given day, right? So, like, you weren't that engaged in it. Now, it's like, oh, Netflix, Hulu, whatever. Like, we have everything at our finger. There's always something that feels important or exciting or, you know, something that could come before sex, right, in a way that really didn't used to be there in the past. And so Vanessa and I were kind of talking about we're like, "God, you know, if we're really honest with each other, sex feels way more important than watching the next episode of whatever show we're watching on Netflix." Although Love is Blind is like really good this season. [laughter] Well, we'll get there. We We kind of We figured out a way to make put a fun spin on this. [laughter]

But, you know, it's like honestly, it's way more important like you are more important to me. our sex life is more important to me than any one of those things. So if it is more important and I think most people would agree like yeah it is like that stuff, you know, my relationship, my sex life is more important to me, but for some reason we are not actually making it as much of a priority as whatever because it's so easy to be like, oh, I'm just going to scroll on my phone for five minutes, right? And then a half an hour has gone by. Yeah. Yeah. So, we were like, "What if we just said no screens before sex?" Like, that sounds kind of cra like it sounded insane when we were first throwing that idea around, but then it's like, well, but why not? Mhm. Like, I can't think of one good legitimate reason why that shouldn't be the case. The only thing is like if you just physically don't want to have sex. So, you know, instead of that, it could be like, you know, no, you know, it could be sex could just be intimacy, something connecting, physical, like all the stuff that we know. We know deep down it's way more important. Mhm. And so, we've been doing that for a little bit now and it has been a very fun experiment. Maybe we'll do a whole podcast episode diving into that, but yeah, we've been having a ton of sex. Sure have. We've been having more sex probably than we've ever had before. And it's really fun. And it's kind of cute cuz we can be like we kind of can both initiate it and be like, "Hey, uh, want to earn our screen time?" [laughter] Like it's just a fun way cuz then you're like, "Oh yeah." Cuz after you do it, then you're like, "Fuck yeah. I did earn this. I did earn this. I can I can relax and know that we are like intentionally relaxing and we're not putting, you know, we're not prioritizing that over the stuff that we know long term is going to keep our relationship alive.

Yeah. Let us know if you want us to do an episode about that because we've been doing a lot of brainstorming about the ways that tech gets in the way of intimacy and like what are other rules, other experiments that we can do to make sure that intimacy is being prioritized above tech. So, come on over to our Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander and let us know if you want to see a whole deep dive episode on that. [music]

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Okay, next. Let's get into the bristle reaction. So this actually is just fully ours [laughter] fortunately. The rest of them are all fully they are they are all ours but [ __ ] first is just it's just too good. And I you know we can both we both don't have egos about the fact that we didn't originally come up with it. So yeah, we also yeah, we love Dan Savage. I mean Dan Savage is one of our our huge inspirations to do what we do especially with this podcast. We've listened to countless hours of Dan Savage and he's so good at coming up with rules, like fun little rules and great names for them, too.

Okay, so the bristle reaction is the name that I came up with for when you for the reaction that you notice when your partner tries to touch you and you feel yourself bristle. Like you feel your walls come up, you recoil to their touch, and it can feel very confusing when you're experiencing this. It's like, wait, my partner's just trying to touch me. This is the person that I love that I'm spending my life with. Like, why am I having such a strong reaction? Yeah. Why do I feel disgusted by them? To their touch. So, what the bristle reaction is really all about is bad initiation. So, here's the dynamic that tends to come up in long-term relationships. Initiating is really vulnerable. You're putting yourself out there. You're asking for something you want. You're putting yourself in the position to be turned down. And let's be real, getting turned down sucks. So most of us over time, ironically, like the longer we're together with our partner, the more vulnerable initiating feels because we've been rejected more times. We feel more sensitive. As time goes on, sex has started to feel more complicated. So as a result, a lot of us, and this is especially true of men in male female relationships, men will tend to initiate in these very roundabout ways. They're not being direct about the fact that they want to be intimate. So, it'll be like they'll go in for a hug and then the hug lingers for a little bit or they'll touch your shoulder and then their hand starts to go down your body. And a lot of us women, like we get so tuned in to that moment, literally that second when the contact changes from truly innocent touch into I'm wanting something more. And that's when our reaction that reaction happens. Our hackles go up. It's like h I know what you're trying to do here. And I mean it can even get so hyper attuned to that then it can extend to even just like any kind of touch can start to feel like a suspected initiation. So that even if the you know if we were mind readers and we could see what both people were thinking even if the the other partner who is you know going in to touch their partner even if they have zero intention that they are going to initiate sex because this connection has already been formed. the other person. They're not even they're not even thinking like, "Oh, sex. I don't want to have sex." It's like this this dynamic or connection has already been created and they're just like, "No, yeah, no touch. No touch. Leave me alone."

And what makes the bristle reaction even worse is that most of us don't really touch each other all that much outside of sex. So, we start creating this connection that when we're touching each other, it's because we want sex. It's because we're pushing for something more. Like if you really think about it, think about how much touch you and your partner have in an average day that isn't related to sex. If you're like most couples, it's not much. It's not much at all. So, of course, that just makes the reaction, you know, even more intense. Like you, you know, you're like, I know you're not just touching me just for the sake of it. You never do that. You're only touching me because you want something from me. And it can get even worse. There are like so many dynamics that can feed into it. Like a lot of times if your partner's touching you in ways that you don't really like, like we've found this is something most couples have never talked about, like what are your favorite ways for me to touch you? So they might be touching you in ways that you don't like. And you may also be touched out. Like if you're a primary caretaker, if you're being touched all day long, you already have that hyper sensitivity to touch. So again, that partner like touching you, making you feel like they want something from you, which is like, I can't I can't leave me alone. everybody leave me alone. So there are a number of different things that can make it worse, but again the overall idea is that when we're not more clear with our initiation, it's very easy for this pattern to develop. And and I forgot to say like one of the the main reason why we do this roundabout initiation is to try to give ourselves plausible deniability. So the classic thing that happens is like the guy goes in, he gives the lingering hug, she brushes him off, and he's like, "What? like I wasn't trying anything. I wasn't trying anything. Or sometimes he makes it into like a joke. You're like, "Oh, I was just joking. I was just joking. Just playing around." Which again just like makes it worse cuz you're like, "Yeah, we both know what's going on, but no, you're not actually acknowledging what's going on. So it's it's your bodies are having this conversation that your mouths are not actually having."

So, you know, we we originally when we started talking about this, we talked about it in the context of our relationship. Like, we've both experienced it. We've both been on either ends of it. And we wanted to normalize it. Like, we both had that experience of feeling like, what's wrong that I'm having this reaction to my partner? I feel so guilty. I feel so bad about this. And so, we wanted to normalize like this is a normal thing that happens. To date, it has still been like some of our most viral content. We did so many media interviews about this, like podcast interviews. We've had like tens of millions of views on Tik Toks and Instagram reels that we've created about it. So, it obviously really resonated with people. So, we did an entire deep dive episode into the Bristol reaction. It's episode 212, why you flinch when your partner touches you and how to fix it, the bristle reaction. But essentially the main fix that we go over in that episode is creating more touch in your relationship. Like we have to break that connection that touch leads to sex or touch is supposed to lead to more. So we do that by bringing more touch into the relationship because surprise surprise more nonsexual touch is good for your relationship whether or not someone's experiencing the bristle reaction. Like that is one nonsexual touch is one of the things that disappears very quickly in serious relationships once they kind of become mature relationships. And I think that's such a shame cuz it's that's one of the huge ways that we differentiate, you know, a very close friendship from a more than a friendship. Obviously sex is a huge differentiator, but beyond that, you know, if you go, "Oh, sex is the only thing that differentiates that." Then it's like, "Okay, great. So when you're having sex, I can tell that you are not just friends, but like outside of sex, like where are the differentiators? Like we got to have more of that differentiation to to just show each other that this is something special."

So more touch. More touch that doesn't lead to anything. More touch just for the sake of touch. More kissing just for the sake of kissing. More of everything. All right. Next up, one of my favorite things that we've ever come up with. Also, probably possibly one of the most controversial things that we've ever said given how many uh like late night comedy shows made fun of this concept. Well, it's cuz they misunderstood it. They did. They didn't ask. They didn't ask to interview us, which was a huge loss on their part. Um, but yeah, we got a lot of press on this one. [laughter]

Okay. It is our nightly make out routine. So, we originally started making out every single night as a reaction to the bristle reaction. We realized like, okay, we're not in our relationship like we weren't touching that much. We certainly were not kissing that much. And especially with kissing, we were really only making out like directly in the leadup to sex or during sex itself. And if we compare that to early in our relationship, it made us really sad because we used to make out like crazy at the beginning of our relationship. Like so much making out, especially the first night that we met each other. Well, I mean, if you said that is I you're making it sound like we were just like non-stop kissing. We were the very first night that we met. But like yeah, we would we would kiss each other, you know, in the next 6 months, say like yeah, we would kiss each other a lot. And it wasn't like after every kiss with tongue, we're running off to have sex. Yeah. Yeah. No, there was just a lot more kissing and we realized like, you know, yeah, we've gotten now we've been together for so many years and like we're really just not kissing each other the way that we used to. And we both were missing that. I think there's something there's something so sweet about kissing. It just it takes you back to being a teenager when you could make out for hours when it felt like kissing was just the most exciting, electrifying thing. And obviously like kissing is something that we just do with our partner and not with you know not with anybody else. So we decided you know what we want to break again break these connections like we don't want to have this pattern that we only make out during sex or that when we start making out one of us is thinking the other's trying to push it you know for it to go to more. And so we decided let's start a new routine where we make out and we're specifically at the beginning of it we decided we are not going to allow ourselves to have sex after the make out session cuz this is that's not the point. It's not to like get ourselves turned on and then go have sexy. Yeah. To just kiss to bring back kissing just for the sake of kissing. So for us it felt easiest to do this at night and what we started doing is just like okay every night we are gonna have a quick little makeout session. So the rule that we came up with was just that tongues had to touch. That was all. And so we usually would say the way that we described is like yeah like maybe 30 seconds you know on an average night. Some nights if we're really tired or just not feeling it it could even be 10 seconds. Some nights it'd be a couple minutes, but like I'd say on average it was like 30 seconds. So what got picked up in the media though, someone along the way thought that we meant 30 minutes of making out. Yeah. So there were a couple of different places where they're like, "This couple makes out for 30 minutes every night. Who has the time for that?" Yeah. Or even if they didn't fixate on the 30 minutes thing, like they were very fixated on like, oh, they're telling us that we should be like that I should be, you know, like I should be kissing my male partner like for a long time before bed and then he's going to get all horny and he's going to want sex and oh god, you know, or you know, the joke is like, oh, you know, it's going to happen if if I do that to him.

Yeah. But like my my counter to that is well sounds like you guys might not be having enough sex if that's really a worry. Like maybe you should focus on that problem. Like how can you have more sex that everyone is actually enjoying? How could you prioritize sex sooner in the day so that you're not getting into a situation right before bed where you're like, "Oh my god, I don't have time for this or I'm not ready for this." Right? So, yeah, I mean like yes, let's say that you had [ __ ] first earlier in the day, then you had to make out for 30 seconds, a minute, even 2 minutes before bed. Like I think if you've already had sex earlier in the day, you're probably like, "Hell yeah, sure. I'll make out with you. Like I can enjoy this. Like I'm not going to get like all sexually frustrated if you know if we don't have sex afterwards." Right? So, I think that once you kind of start combining all these things, all of a sudden it starts to make a lot more sense. It's kind of interesting how it's like one of these things it, you know, it feels like kind of whack-a-ole. You're like, "Oh, well, I want to do that, but oh, but then, but then my partner might be horny and oh god, god forbid that my partner gets horny and it's like, oh, well, this, you know, trying to solve this problem just creates another problem." But, you know, yeah, it kind of is whack-a-ole at first until you start putting all the pieces together and then they all start working together. Yeah. So, it's Yeah, it very quickly became one of our favorite routines with each other, our favorite little rituals. It just felt like this really special thing that we do with each other. And and was just fun to like have making out just for the sake of making out. And it also spread to throughout the day, too. Like, now we just make out a whole lot more at other points of the day, too. And it's just it's this great way to infuse more connection all throughout the day. And it just kept this thread of like sexual energy going between the two of us too. So it didn't feel like you know, we are getting into bed at the end of the night feeling like oh my god we're so disconnected from each other but also we're not getting into bed at the end of the night feeling that cuz remember we're prioritizing sex earlier in the day. But yeah, it just it's become so fun, so special. We really, really like it and it's just such an easy thing to do to bring more intimacy and connection into our relationship. So, we also have an entire episode about this dynamic. It's episode 132, why we started making out every night. So, we go over a lot more detail of like how we got this set up, exactly what we do. We address a lot of the objections that people have to it because boy oh boy have you guys had some objections to it. [laughter] But we have had so many people say, even people who were hesitant at first, they were like, "I thought this was crazy. I thought it was really annoying that you guys did this." But like then I tried it and actually we really like it now, too. So definitely highly recommend checking that episode out and coming up with your own little makeout routine cuz it's fun to make out.

All right, next up, let's talk about the two different kinds of desire. So important. So important. And most people have no clue that that this exists. And we've gotten so much feedback from our community saying this one piece of information was lifechanging. Like completely changed the game in how I think about our sex life, how I think about like my libido. It's really really crucial. So let's break it down. There are two different ways that we get turned on and ready for sex. So in our heads, that's mental desire. The idea of sex sounds good. And in our bodies, physical arousal, that's our bodies are getting ready for sex. So getting wet, getting an erection, nipples getting hard, heart rate increasing, all that kind of stuff. So the two different sex drive types are based on where you feel desire first. So one type of desire is called spontaneous desire. That's when you feel mental desire first, then the physical arousal follows. And if you think about every sex scene that you've seen on TV and the movies, that is always spontaneous desire. It's like you're just going about, you know, the character is just going about their life. All of a sudden, the idea of sex sounds good to them. They go find their partner. It's game on from there. So, most people think this is how sex drive is supposed to work. I'm just out of the blue, randomly supposed to feel the desire for sex. But there's a second type of desire that most people don't even realize exists, and that is responsive. And it's the exact opposite of spontaneous desire. So you feel physical arousal first, then the mental desire second. So, the classic way of knowing that you probably have responsive desire is if you've ever caught yourself in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex thinking, "This is fun. Why do I never seem to want this?" That is responsive desire. So, research shows that men tend to have primarily spontaneous desire and women tend to have responsive desires. Like 85% of women have responsive desire. about 75% of men have spontaneous desire. Of course, there are always, you know, exceptions to that. But there are so many women who because we don't talk about responsive desire because most people don't even realize it exists. There are so many women who think of themselves as being low desire or even no desire because they're never getting that mental desire out of nowhere. That is just not true, though. You You don't have low desire or no desire. You just have a different kind of desire and you have to understand how your desire works and work with that type of desire instead of against it.

So one of the classic ways that this comes up is like with initiation. So most of us initiate like the vibe around initiation is like do you want to have sex? And if you ask somebody with responsive desire do you want to have sex? Well, and because first of all, typically someone with spontaneous desire spontaneously has the idea, oh, sex would be nice. Ah, I have an idea. I'll initiate with my partner. I'll say, hey, they won't say this part. In their head, they're saying, I'm horny right now. I'm feeling it right now. Hey, do you want to have sex right now? Yeah. So, if you ask somebody with responsive desire, do you want to have sex right now? They're always going to say no. Right now, they weren't thinking about it. Yeah. They weren't thinking about it. They have to feel that physical arousal first before they start thinking that the idea of sex sounds good. So approaching your partner in that way, it's always going to lead to a no. And you're and the person with responsive desire is going to wind up feeling, God, why am I always a no? I never seem to want it. So what we need to recognize is for somebody with responsive desire, they have to have physical stimulation first. Their body has to have something to respond to. Then they're going to start feeling interested in sex. So, we break this down in a lot more detail in a podcast episode 215, mismatch sex drive types, the number one reason couples struggle with desire. We go into way more detail about the two different types and specifically what to do if you have like one partner of each type in a relationship, which is almost certainly the case.

Yeah, [laughter] it does. You are almost certainly going to have different sex drive type than your partner does. Yeah. Though. Interestingly, yeah, we thought that we had different sex drive types until very recently. I'll tell you why in a minute because the next thing that we're going to talk about starts to kind of clarify that a bit. But one thing I also wanted to say about the desire types is that you kind of mentioned it in passing that this is it's like a primary desire type. It's not that you can only ever have spontaneous desire or you can only ever have responsive desire. And I think that, you know, it's great. you learn about this and you're like, "Oh my god, I'm starting to understand this so much better." But then I think kind of similar to love languages when we don't really go very deep on it. We think, "Oh, well, this is, you know, oh, I'm an acts of service person. Acts of service is the only way that I can feel love." And I think that the same thing can happen with a sex drive type. So, we can kind of get really locked in. And so like you'll hear from someone who's a spontaneous type and be like, "Oh, well, how could we possibly plan to have sex in the future?" Because I like I might not be turned on, right? Then it can feel like, "Oh, well, the only way that I can be sexually satisfied or even turned on is if the idea comes to me spontaneously." And so I think you know, the key for spontaneous types is you need to put you need to start creating experiences for yourself where you can see that you can act responsively too. Okay. Yeah. When I kind of quiet that noise in my head the fear that oh my god the only way I can get horny is like if I have is if like if I'm already feeling it and realize oh yeah no like my bodies are responsive. Like that's how that's how our bodies are like we're built to be both of these things. Um, and you know, so it's like okay, can I relax and allow myself to maybe receive some touch and see if I get turned on. And then similarly for responsive types I think you know what often happens is we get so down on ourselves of oh my god something's wrong with me. I'm never horny. I never think about sex. I must just not be that into it. and you're, you know, with that kind of shame and guilt, you're literally shutting down your ability to be thinking about sex spontaneously. You already have the story that that's just not you. So, I think the key for for responsive types is really starting to trust, oh yeah, once I once we get started, my desire fires up. I am a sexual person. I do think about sex. Mhm. And then once you kind of can let go of a lot of that shame and that guilt and that story that you already have for yourself, you might find yourself starting to think spontaneously about sex at times. So it is what is your what is your primary type. I do think it's important to realize though that you can and you should be able to feel both of those. The key is identifying where are you? That's a starting point and then be like, okay, how might I be able to teach myself how to, you know, incorporate some of the other type two? Yeah. So, definitely check out that episode if you want to learn more about the sex drive types. It's it's a really like gamechanging piece of information.

So, next what we want to talk about is a another way that we like built upon that the two sex drive types. We added another layer to it which is something that we call the emotional physical conundrum. And this actually came out of an ongoing argument that we had. [laughter] Yes. So there are two types of people in the world just like there are two different sex drive types. So there are people who want to feel emotionally connected before they have sex and there are people who want to have sex as a way to feel emotionally connected. And just like with the sex drive types typically in relationships there's one of each type. So we all we attract opposites. Yeah. And the classic argument between couples that you'll hear is, "Well, we're so disconnected right now. Why would I want to have sex with you?" And then the other partner saying, "Yeah, we're disconnected. That's why we need

"to have sex." So, it often leads to feeling like couples are at an impasse. And we've been through this in our own relationship, too. So, typically the gender dynamic that we notice is that men want to have sex as a way to create physical intimacy. Women want to feel or sorry, men want to have sex as a way to create emotional intimacy. Women want to feel emotional intimacy before getting physical.

Yeah. So, similar to the desire types, there is a gender stereotypical breakdown. And so, as a result, it would be fair to think that, yeah, you, if someone is responsive, they're probably I want to feel emotionally connected in order to have sex. And if someone is spontaneous, it would be fair to think, oh yeah, well, they probably want to have sex in order to feel connected. And so that is that is true in the like in the statistics like who's more likely to be what, but that doesn't they are not one for one. It can absolutely, you can absolutely be a spontaneous sex drive type and want emotional connection in order to be open to sex. In fact, that is me.

I mean, you can you can be >> because you kind of skipped, you skipped over like, so we are actually the reverse of the gender typical gender dynamic. I'm somebody who wants to who wants to have sex in order to open up or unlock emotional intimacy, and Xander wants to feel emotional intimacy before >> having sex. >> Yeah. And so once we really figured out this dynamic in our relationship, I feel like this really unlocked things for us, cuz this was kind of like the major impasse that we would find ourselves in. If we were in kind of a season of disconnection, or one of us was really stressed or working hard, or we had been in an argument or something, we would find ourselves like, I would not be particularly open to sex, and Vanessa would be wanting to have sex and trying to initiate sex with me, and I would be, you know, I might even be bristling a little or like think, you know, I would be showing all the signs that I was not open to sex. And originally, originally, we started talking about desire types, cuz I think that was, you know, you were aware of the desire types before we kind of created this this concept of the emotional physical conundrum. And so we assumed, oh, well, Xander, me, I must be I must be uh responsive desire because, you know, I would often find in these disconnected situations, I wouldn't be open to sex. And so we made that faulty assumption. And then later, once we started, you know, kind of digging into it more and talking about like what our experiences were like in those situations, I was able to describe to Vanessa finally, kind of in the tail end of a, we got into a big blow-up about this. And I was like, look, like here's the like, I know that you really want to have sex with me right now and you feel like that is going to that's going to make us feel better. But the problem is, when things feel tense like this between us, it doesn't feel emotionally safe for me to have sex. I feel like I could push myself to have sex, but then I worry I won't feel good about myself afterwards. So, it doesn't it doesn't feel it doesn't feel safe like the way I want sex to feel in a long-term relationship. It feels like I might kind of feel like, you know, how I might feel after like a hookup where I don't feel very good about myself >> or something. And I think that really opened your eyes to what my experience was. And we were like, "Oh, this is its own type."

Mhm. Yeah. So, we we actually are kind of in the middle of we are combining these two different models and it's something that we will share more of in the future as well, but actually making like a 2x2 grid of this and and having there be four different types. So, how your sex drive type and your emotional versus physical type, how you know, different combinations of those two.

Yeah. So, for now, yeah. I mean, if if you can quickly identify yourself, you probably can from us just describing what these were. And I bet you you can probably quickly identify your partner or if you want to ask them a question or two, I bet you you can figure it out pretty quickly. Start to think about, okay, you know, think about the combination of are they responsive, spontaneous, or are they emotional first or or uh sex first? and and yeah, think about what that might mean because it starts to get kind of interesting when when you think about it. Like you either will kind of fall into that very gender stereotype, or you'll fall into one of the two other possibilities, which are kind of a mixed a mixed bag. Um, and and it gets really interesting. I think that that's it's a really meaningful way for you to start to understand your partner better and figure out how you can make some adjustments in your sex life so that everyone's happy. Because ultimately, the thing that's really important to recognize about the emotional physical conundrum is we all want both things. Like we want to feel emotional closeness. We want to have physical intimacy. But because we lead, we each lead with different things, it's very easy for us to feel like we're at battle with our partner. We want, feel misunderstood, or feel like we want different things. So, it's it's a reminder of like, everybody wants both things and we can work together as a team to make sure we're getting both things rather than feeling like we're uh, you know, opponents with each other.

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Here's the sad truth. Most of us spend more time picking a Netflix show than we do being actually present in our relationship. >> And yet, research actually shows that your relationship is a bigger predictor of your happiness more than your career or money. But there's never been a clear roadmap to deeper connection and lasting intimacy until now. >> That's why we built Deeper, our membership for couples who want to feel closer, more connected, and more passionate. If your relationship is in a good place, you'll love the quick wins like brand new date night ideas every month, fun conversation prompts, and even Vanessa AI, your on-demand coach that you can ask anything, anytime. And if you hit a tougher season, which is totally normal, then Deeper has you covered with our full library of courses and guides so that you can deep dive into exactly what you need most right now. Think communication, connection, desire, pleasure, or exploration. We've got you. It's like having a relationship wellness plan that actually fits into your real life. >> It's the membership that we always wished existed for ourselves. something in between expensive therapy and trying to just figure it all out on your own. So whether you just want fresh ideas to keep things exciting, or you need more structured tools to get back on track, Deeper meets you where you are because your relationship deserves at least as much care as your Netflix queue. >> Curious what your deeper journey might look like? Start with the intimacy quiz, your key to love that lasts. This quick quiz helps you uncover what your relationship needs most right now. And you might be surprised because most couples get this one wrong. You'll walk away with a personalized roadmap, straight to the point, actionable, and designed to help you reconnect with your partner ASAP. So, head on over to vmapy.com/5keys. That's the number five and then the word keys. Again, it's vapy.com/5keys. And don't worry, we'll also link it in the show notes for you.

All right, and let's wrap this up with >> mushy broccoli. >> The mushy broccoli problem. >> Let's talk vegetables. You are not eating enough vegetables. [laughter] >> I mean, that's probably true. >> Yeah, true. That's not quite what this podcast is about. That would be funny if we just made a hard pivot. >> Yeah. Into like nutrition. >> Yeah. We We actually have a broccoli sponsor we want to tell you about. The broccoli lobby. The broccoli lobby is on board with pillow talks. [laughter] We're pushing cruciferous veg. >> Oh my god. Okay. This is probably my favorite name for something that I've come up with. >> You're not good at I naming things. >> You're you're verging on bad at naming things. And this is this and finishing school, I think, are your two [laughter] >> your two uh cudigra. >> I mean, it's not even really that good, but it does make people laugh. So I it's it's fine. Okay. So [laughter] >> it's fine. Wow. You were underelling yourself. You just were like, I did such a good job on this. You're like, no, it's fine. >> I mean, objectively, I don't think it's that great, but I think it's entertaining. >> I remember that there used to be another name for this >> before it became mushy broccoli. And mushy broccoli is way better. It used to call the white toast. Problem? The problem is a lot of people like white toast. >> Not like No, not enough. >> We're talking like Wonderbread white toast. Not like a >> I I think there's a lot of Americans that eat a lot of Wonderbread. Probably like I >> Okay. Well, mush mushy broccoli. >> I'm gluten-free. I can't eat Wonderbread. So, I am not [ __ ] on Wonderbread, guys.

Okay. So, essentially what the mushy broccoli problem came out of was that probably the number one complaint that we hear from people is, I feel like my libido is low. I never want sex. >> You feel like your libido is mushy? [laughter] >> Probably. Um, so some of this goes back into understanding the two sex drive types, right? That can play a big factor in this. But also what we learned is that as soon as somebody tells us, I have low sex drive, the first question that we ask them is, tell us about the sex that you do have. And more often than not, the sex that people will describe is boring. It's predictable. It's routine. It's not particularly pleasurable. And especially from women, we hear a lot of like, you know, women in relationships with men, we hear a lot of it's, you know, it feels like it's all about him. There's very little that I get out of it. You know, when he's done, we're done. I very rarely have orgasms or I'm faking orgasms. And so, we started realizing there's a very important connection between our enjoyment of sex and our desire for sex. So that's where the mushy broccoli comes into play. If you >> I still I still can't see [laughter] it. >> If you are not enjoying the sex that you are having, it doesn't make any sense for you to crave it. So think about a bowl of overly steamed, mushy, unseasoned broccoli. Do you ever find yourself craving broccoli that's cooked in that way? No, of course not. And do you think anything is wrong with you for not craving mushy broccoli? Obviously not. That the same thing has to be true when it comes to sex. If you are having sex that is the equivalent of some mushy broccoli, it makes perfect sense for you not to crave it. And nothing is wrong with you for not craving it. Your body is having a normal, understandable reaction to the situation. So the issue is not libido. The issue is the enjoyment of sex. We don't need to fix your libido. You're not broken in any way. We need to make sure you are having the kind of sex that is worth craving.

All right. Well, those are our greatest hits. >> Greatest hits. Greatest tips. greatest hits, greatest tips. Let us know what you thought of these. If you're somebody brand new, you can leave a little comment on Spotify. Let us know which one's your favorite. If [snorts] you're an OG, you've been here for a while and we left out one of your favorites, let us know there, too. We can always do a greatest hits part two if we left out a whole bunch of of favorites. >> Or let us know which one of these which ones of these are you implementing or are you already successful using in your relationship.

All right. Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.