Building A Solid Name In The Reptile Community & Why It's CRUCIAL | All In The Tree Tuesday Live

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Trap Talk Reptile Network. Coolest Reptile Network in the world. Episode 710. All in the tree Tuesdays with just myself. I'm your boy MJ, Marshall Menddees, Red Mountain Herps, and Billsteagle, Phoenix Reptiles. You're in for a treat. If this is your first time listening or watching, please do me a favor. If you're enjoying what you're witnessing, please smash that like button, hit that subscribe button, hit that notification bell, select all, be reminded every episode released out of the network. Hey, happy late Thanksgiving, boys. It's good to have you here. What's up? Happy Tuesday, guys. And uh hope you guys had a great Thanksgiving. Same. It was great. It was great. Um, can you guys believe the year's over? Like, is this what happens as you get older? Yes. Yes. They get shorter and shorter. Bro. This is crazy how quick things are just going by now. That means you're doing things right. I guess. So, right. Um, yeah. Guys, what a year. Um, I I you know, I don't know if Did you get my facts, uh, Marshall of tonight's agenda? I don't know if you have I don't know if you have a printouts. I did. Okay, cool. Got it on my phone right here. What a guy. Uh but no, seriously, man. I I kind of want to organize some topics for tonight. I feel like this is going to be the last uh you know, just All on the Tree Tuesday uh boys episode. Uh I want to talk about a lot about this year. Kind of want to go around the horn first and kind of kick things off. Why don't we start with you, Bill? Um man, I don't know what highlight you could really pinpoint. I'm sure you have many, but let's kind of talk about some of the biggest highlights for you in 2025, why they were so uh big in your book and just some of the things you're I guess you're proud about the most.

Yeah, I guess first and foremost, you know, production wise, I had the best year I've ever had uh this year in quality and quantity of Neos I produced. Um yeah, super blessed to have that happen. um you know just um just so grateful to be able to work with these animals full-time and you know make this my career, my living. It's it's been something that um I never would have dreamed that that I would be sitting here after I you know I retired from my medical practice eight years ago and I never thought I'd be sitting here in this in this uh position and so thankful to have you guys. I think both you guys and the podcast in general um were responsible for a lot of that success. Um it helps me, you know, promote my animals obviously and try to share some knowledge and keep this hobby going and going and growing. And so, you know, I think, you know, the podcast and the production this year have been really the highlights of my, you know, reptile keeping this year.

It's crazy. I'm sure you guys could both, you know, like what Bill just said, you know, I feel like there's episodes we've had that open up things that we haven't thought about in certain areas of whatever we're working with. Like I mean, one of the thing that stands out the most with you, Bill, is that adjustment period with the in with the egg box, you know. Um, like, you know, you were open about it and and we you already kind of knew what you had to do and you had to switch it up, which you did and it it had your results were great by doing that. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Luckily, it really only cost me To be honest, I think last season it cost me some animals because I was using um you know the the style of incub incubation box towards the end of last year and I think it it definitely cost me some neos um surviving the incubation process and then the first clutch I had this year just absolutely crashed. I ended up getting one surviving of maybe 12, 14, 15 eggs. Um what clutch was that Bill? Um that was the very first clutch. So that would have been Contagion, which was the first time he bred um to a Jagger biscuit female called Patches, right? And so ended up with one Neo from that uh clutch that turned out awesome. I sold it. Um but it did great and it's it's doing great in its new home. So you know, repeating that pairing as we speak.

Yeah. You know, that was that that was a good one. It it could have and should have been a much better one, but you know, we learned we learned from our mistakes and I adjusted some things and then the rest of the season uh incubation went great. Can you pinpoint what clutch carried the most excitement for you this year? Um like the one that kind of, you know, I don't know if there's levels to it when it gets to the [ __ ] that you're hatching out, Bill. I don't know if it's all the same. you plateau with excitement, but

I mean there were a few clutches that that that stood out. That that was one of them. Um even though I only yielded one Neo, the the freight train, you know, so lucky with that animal, produced three clutches this year. The um the freight train bred to the sickness offspring females. Both those clutches just turned out phenomenal. Uh one of them was a repeat pairing, so I I you know, I knew I was going to get good results with that. The other one was a first time pairing, but it was sisters to the to the other one that was very successful last year. So, I had a good feeling about that clutch as well as how the Neos would turn out. And sure enough, they turned out great. In fact, you know, you could put the two clutches up side by side and I don't think, you know, anybody would be able to pick out which which damn sired the clutches. They were that they were that close phenotypically. And and they yielded pretty good clutches. Both of them, you know, had more than 10 surviving Neos. Um, yeah, that's Pathogen. That's the female that uh produced for the first time this year.

So, we got the redo right here. We're getting ready for the red the doover. Yeah, I'm going to re I'm going to repeat that pairing. I'm going to rest Outbreak this year. She yielded backtoback clutches. Um, she looks good, but I've just got other options with freight train and um that's cool. you know, just going to let her rest. And you know, and then the other the other clutch that I was excited about, even though I produced the sire, I don't own the sire, was the sickness 2.0 clutch. Yes. Oh my god. And again, that yielded a pretty small clutch. I ended up with four viable Neos uh that all look fantastic. Um and that pairing will be is being repeated as we speak as well. So, I think those three clutches were probably the the pinnacle of my year.

There he is. 2.0. [ __ ] That's 2.0. He's a beast of a snake, Bill. He's as bad as they come. Yeah, that's the ultimate package. That's the Tom Brady package right there. You know, between him and the sickness, just for what I what I like just personally, I don't think I could improve on that look any. I mean, maybe throw a little bit more blue in there where there's green, but that's about it. Bill, I think with age he's going to be blue. I think so. I think that green might turn more of a a blue color with age. I really, you know, you know, you showed pathogen in that picture that you showed. It's hard to tell, but she's become incredibly blue. Yeah. You know, over the last couple years, you know, you can just tell she's got a blue wash all over her there. Yeah. And she's two years younger than or older, excuse me, than 2.0 At least, right? Yeah. At least. At least. No, no, no. Four years. Four years. My bad. Yeah. She's got She's four years older than 2.0. Yeah. And 2.0 is a sickness offspring or a Joerger offspring? Joerger. Joerger to biscuit. Wow. So, same parents. So, like No. No. Sickness uh sickness was um Joerger to a um locality. Yeah. Okay. She passed away, right? Yeah. Both her and Joerger are now gone. Yeah. Go ahead. As you can say, the genes live on. And you know, from what I've seen in both of their offspring, you know, it was unfortunate to only get one clutch out of the sickness, but his genes have just continued to proliferate and and you know, bigger and better is what we always strive for.

Yeah. But like how much worse would it be with no 2.0? Like at least you still got like a huge piece to like the remembrance of what sickness was like like you said, the legacy continues. And I feel like that's kind of the beauty, which I'm sure Marshall's been a part. I mean, look what he's doing with the albino finally, but like finally with the enough uh time that you put in, anything that is a loss sometime comes back like even better. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying 2.0 is better. Um, you know, sicknesses have shoes that I don't think any snake could ever feel, but still like you always got something to remember what what what started everything, right? Yeah. And I still have that Jagger blood in so many animals. And I feel like any of those animals at any one g given time could throw out a sickness 3.0, you know. So there's always that's why that's why, you know, brings me back every year because I think, you know, there's there's always that chance another animal like that can pop out. So yeah.

All right, Marshall. Um, the biggest thing for you this year, I mean, let's kind of recap the whole 2025 uh season for you. I think uh a lot of the babies you hatched out were beginning of the year, right? Like so Yeah. Yeah. It's been kind of a kind of a different kind of year for me. Um all the action happened right at the beginning. Um when you were here, which was what that was February. Yeah. Uh that's when I had both clutches and they both hatched within a day or two of each other. Um and I think you know another So that was obviously a big a big part of it. um a big part of the year. Uh as far as like the rest of the collection goes, you know, I didn't pair I produced two ball pythons this year, which were uh two, which were two, yeah, which were a carryover from a pairing that I did last year that went really late. Um so I didn't pair any ball pythons this year. Thin the collection out. I mean, this time last year, I think I was sitting on around 260 snakes and um right now I'm down under a hundred. So, I mean, it's Yeah, it's been super nice. I mean, I do kind of miss not having, you know, babies to play with at this time of year, but also having, you know, having the extra free time and um just not having to, you know, do as much uh as far as like maintenance and work during the week. It's been it's been nice. Um, another thing is, you know, keeping the albino alive for another year. Uh, this one has now lived, um, I want to say it's lived longer than the previously, yeah, than the other one that lived, you know, um, over over or close to two years. This one's not quite two years yet. It's probably um, you know, I don't know. It's probably 20 months or something like that. So, uh, still don't know what sex it is. I'm kind of leaning towards female just because it doesn't, you know, most males in my experience, even at this age, they they poop regularly. You know, this one's really bad about kind of holding on to things and then, you know, either end up having to soak her or whatever to get her to go. Um, so I'm kind of leaning towards female, but who knows? I could be wrong. Um, and then, you know, the babies from this year have all turned out to be nice. You know, it started off as like the best year that I've had in in many years because I even though it was only two clutches, they were both really big. Yeah. And you know, I think they were I think I started off with close to close to 20 something. I ended up having like 30 something. I have to go back and look at the look at my notes to be 100% sure, but I think I started off with close to 40 eggs. 30 something eggs of which only about 20 something hatched between the two clutches. Um, who knows what you know that could have been. I did go back to vermiculite this year which I didn't have some of the problems that I had last year as far as babies you know in like a really dry egg um and getting tangled up in the umbilicus. But had kind of a different set of problems and that they all ca they were all kind of runty. Um the eggs were a little bit small to begin with. So, I don't know if that had anything to do with, you know, with the pairing or um or what, but uh pretty low survival rate. I think I'm down to like eight neonates now from those 20some. Um and they all just kind of, you know, either never established or lost a couple to prolapse. Um not many, two to prolapse I think. And then, you know, the good news is is that most of the ones that died died pretty rapidly after they hatched. So, um, you know, never made it to first shed. So, it wasn't like there was a bunch of work and time and effort put into them. But, uh, still kind of sucks to start off with that kind of high numbers and end up with only a handful. But, you know, that's how it goes sometimes.

You're listen You're listen to your boy MJ next year. That's why. Huh? What's that? You're gonna listen to your boy MJ next year, aren't you? Listen to you on what what pal. We dude, there's We could help your ratio here as far as what's surviving. We could we could fix this. The student has become the master. That's right. Yeah. I just I'm tired of seeing [ __ ] die on Marshall's hands. I'm sick of it. I I could have that if I could step in. I'm just trying to help. We need We need a condro intervention. Tell me. Yeah. Either way, no. Listen, I gotta say, Marshall, like you're seeing [ __ ] that no one's ever seen, obviously. Um I want to know what you've experienced differently with this albino as it's changing its OC. Um, like are you getting any different vibes? Like I I don't I mean I guess it's really hard to tell.

No, not really. If Yeah, there's there's a pretty recent photo of it. Yeah, that those are pretty recent. I think there maybe is one newer. This one right here. That uh Yeah, that one's that that's it. You can't really see. It'll be hard to see in that one, but if you go back to uh go to the one right Yeah, that one. Okay, this one. Yeah. So, you can see it's got some I think that, you know, there was at one point I thought that um any black that would be on the albino would be would end up being white, but I don't think that's the case. I think all those dark red flexcks that you see uh in this one are what black is because there's I have a sibling to this one that looks real similar except for wherever that one's got red flex, it's black. And so who knows if it's really like a true black or if um, you know, if it's a obviously I don't think it's true black otherwise it would in theory if this albino gene works like all the other ones it would be white. Uh that's how it is in balls and burns and you know white or yellow. But um so I don't know. I mean it looks like it's going into the same kind of golden color as all the other ones that have lived this long. Um I think it's going to be a nice golden yellow color. Obviously, the the baby pattern, it may have some who knows if that'll just be like a different shortage shade of yellow. It's got some lavender um kind of highlights around it. Um and it's kind of got even like a little bit of green on its head right now, but I remember the last one had that and it eventually faded away. So, um looks really looks really healthy. Yeah. Yeah. It's doing great. Looks like a male, dude. I'm calling male. I hope you're right. We can only we can only hope. Yeah. Hope you're right. I could be wrong, but I mean I'm calling male.

What are you feeding uh this snake at this stage right now, Marshall? Uh small mice. Okay. How often? Uh like every I don't know, sometimes every week, sometimes every two weeks. Just kind of depends. And then if it doesn't poop, I'll I may go a month and not feed it. Um right. So, you know, soak it. Like I said, I'll soak it. I'll get it to crawl around. I'll, you know, handle handle it for couple of, you know, 15 20 minutes at a time and um it's just one of those man that doesn't like to likes to hold it all in. It's kind of frustrating, you know, when you really want to feed it, but you have to kind of hold back because, you know, you don't want it you don't want five, six meals in it without it without pooping. So,

well, this sounds crazy. I mean, I could be wrong, but like I don't know. I that's that's why I kind of almost favored keeping feeding rats because I feel like they don't hold on to rats. they [ __ ] them out. Um, and I and I noticed cuz I switched some of my snakes that were on rats. I went I went to mice just to kind of go back and forth and they just don't seem to [ __ ] out the mice. They just seem to like hold on to it a lot longer where you could feed them almost like five, six mice in a sense versus like, okay, maybe they'll skip one meal on this [ __ ] with a rat, but they're going to [ __ ] by that second meal from what I've experienced and I'm not feeding bigger. But I don't know like and also I don't I just don't know if it's um I mean I don't know. has to be a thing if they're not [ __ ] regularly. But when is it a point where you should worry about it when you shouldn't? What do you guys think about that? Like when should you actually step in and do something?

I do something after if after three meals they haven't done something, I'll stop feeding them. So I'll skip a week and then if they still don't go, then I'll soak them. And I have some where that does it like immediately within, you know, a day they, you know, soak them and the next morning come in and they pooped. Um and then I have others where you got to soak them multiple times. You've got to like make sure make them exercise. You gota, you know, I I'll do this thing where every time I come in the room, I'll take the perch off the cage and put it on the floor. So, at least they have to crawl back up to the thing and just keep doing that multiple times a day. Just try try to keep them, you know, try to keep them moving. Um, sometimes that works. You know, if it's summertime, I can take them outside and spray them with the hose. That'll work sometimes. Um, it's unusual for an animal that size to hold. Um, yeah, even even being female, I just haven't experienced that. I've experienced it in old older females, you know, three, four year old females [clears throat] easily when they're two, you know. I I just haven't experienced that. Um, you know, [clears throat] in females.

Yeah. Another thing too is it could be that I've been kind of gunshy since it did have that prolapse at the beginning of feeding it smaller meals than maybe than should which you know that could lead to not not going as often. Um so I have here recently tried to you know make sure I'm giving it something decent size uh where you can actually see it in there um you know when I fed it versus not leaving a lump at all. Although, you know, I feed it about the same size as the other two sibs. No, I've got it one sib and one other uh animal from 24. And um they're about the same size and they don't seem to have, you know, they seem to have no problems as far as you know, they they go regularly. Um it just it's just with this one for whatever reason.

Did you guys see I was trying to look for it right now. I'm going to still look. But Keith Flax posted in the thread that [ __ ] godamn man. It's It's funny because I had one pop up today. I almost sent it to you guys. It was from like 2012 or something like that. A picture pop up in my Google photos or whatever. And man, it was the gnarliest prolapse I've ever seen. and um it uh took pictures of it and it was basically it had a you know real hard turd that had come out and it gotten turned 90 degrees to the to the intestinal tract. Jesus it was it was way worse than that one I remember you sent a picture I know please do but I remember you sent a picture to us in the group chat remember you put you soaked it and it died after that. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not this one. Okay. No. I so I soaked this one and um all I had to do was basically get the get the get the turd out and it went back in on its own within like 15 minutes, you know. Um I I don't even think I've shared with you guys. I experienced my first adult prolapse ever in a condra about a month ago. Wow. It was it was the it was my manacori female and um it looked similar to Keith's. I wouldn't say it was massive, but it they all look gnarly when it happens. Um you see the [ __ ] stuck in it right there. You see the turd? Oh yeah, I can see the turd. And and the turd that Alex and I manipulated out of out of ours was massive. Yeah. It was a big big turd. And um kind of like Marshall, what was so interesting in the difference between the adults and the neos that prolapse. So once that turd got out and we soaked it, you know, I mean we were literally headed under the sink just running water on it, you know, trying to manipulate the turd out. [clears throat] And uh once that turd came out, you know, she almost did the rest of the work herself. Yeah. Yeah. We we manipulated the tail, but she was like literally sucking in, you know, sucking in her her guts back in.

Check out the pictures I just sent you, MJ. I just DM to you. Oh, you DM'd them. All right. Yeah, because um Yeah, Bill, remember I talked about the two prolapses that I thought thought happened due to my humidity being so low. Um you know, they and they those prolapses went back back in on their own. Um one of them no issue at all, but the other one had two meals and then I walked in on it [ __ ] and it looked like it would it looked it was a full prolapse and I was like, "Oh my god." And I was like shaking my head like, "Dude, this is it." Like, "I'm putting you down." So, I closed it. But I went back, it was fully back in like like I I don't know if it was just coming out cuz it was pushing so hard and it had to [ __ ] But then I'm wondering, is this going to be a common thing where it's going to always prolapse when it shits and it's just going to take the wrong [ __ ] to make it prolapse again? I'm not feeling good about this snake. I'll tell you that much. But it's happening where it's [ __ ] and then going back in on its own. Um I took the Yeah, I'm I'm gunshy to feed her again. She looks great. You know, I kept her off the perches for maybe 10 days and she'd been back on the perches for a couple of weeks now. So, she's due to be fed again. I'm probably going to feed her later this week or next week, but obviously it'll be a really small meal and and see how she does. I have a feeling she's going to do great. Um, you know, this to me this just looked like kind of like Marshall's um example, just an an anatomical abnormality where the turd just got turned sideways and she just couldn't get it out.

Oh my god, look at that. That's so gnarly. [laughter] That's about what mine looked like. That looks You can you can see it. You can see the the right, you know, kind of you can see the end of the zoom butt right there. Yeah, there you go. Oh my god. And all that all that behind it's a big turn. So what this just all it is is the turds turned 90 degrees. So I just manipulated it, turned it, you know, in line with the intestine. It came right out and then within five minutes you see the next photo the thing was almost all the way back in.

Was it doing it um were you doing this underwater? Like were you is that when you were like kind of pushing out the or or you just did this? Yeah. [laughter] JUST RAW DOG, BRO. [ __ ] THAT. No lube, no water, nothing. [ __ ] straight up. And then that was like right after I right after it came out. Okay. I thought this one died though. I thought it died after this. Okay. It's still live. Are you sure about that? I can go. No. No. This This is like a 15year-old picture. So, okay. Maybe you're just showing off an example because you had a situation like this like two, three years ago with a female. Hold back a hold back female. Remember you shared in the chats? [snorts] You not remember? Yeah. Damn. Alex Alex and I took a video of um us reducing ours. He's he's working on editing it now. I think Sal's help S or Jaffy's helping him out. Um but he'll have a video online about how we reduced it. Um because luckily, you know, it was nice. There were three of us there. Um, I I manned the camera and and then Alex and Logan essentially held the snake. Alex manipulated it. We had it under running water the entire time just to keep everything wet, soften up that turd. And um so yeah, uh if if you want to check out Alex's YouTube video probably within the next couple weeks, I think he wants me to feed it a couple times and so he can give kind of an update about like yeah, it's doing good. It went back on feed and all that kind of stuff. But I think it would be I've seen prolapse videos before um yeah, you know, about people reducing them and so but I I you should check out Alex's uh YouTube channel here in the next month to to see. I think it was a valuable it was a valuable learning experience for both of us for sure.

Maybe Santa Claus will bring a trap talk episode where that video is put out somehow. May who knows? We never know, Bill. These people might get We never know with these things. Yeah, you really don't. Um, I will tell you one thing that I've learned with the prolapses. Um, and I think Gary said this in his prolapse video. Um, like not going in there right away and putting it back in physically, like almost seeing if it will go back in on its own. Um, like almost waiting 24 hours. Do you guys do that at all? Like do you guys see if it goes back in on its own? Um, depending on how severe it is or do you just go in there and

Well, I can just tell you in my experience it was I mean the turd was not going to come out honestly. Okay. Okay. So, so that's what I I meant to say is, okay, you get the turd out, right? Let's say you do get the turd out. Are you still going to put that prolapse back in on your own, or are you going to see after the turds out, is it going to go back in on its own without you having a I mean, you're there. You're there. There's no reason to assist it and and get that prolapse back in. And like I said, it was, you know, she almost did all the work on her own, but she needed a little help, you know, a little pushing, um, you know, away from the vent to to get that to get her guts back inside. Um, so I would definitely say as long as you're there, you know, just do do whatever you can to get it back in place. Put the animal, of course, we soaked her after. Um and then um you know just get her back in there and let her let the healing process begin.

Yeah. Because I kind of jumped a little too quickly, grabbed probes and physically put them back in and you know I try my best to do it like gently and I I notice a little blood sometimes me doing it and I'm like [ __ ] why maybe I'm not doing this right. Maybe I'm [ __ ] it up by even using a probe. So being scared of doing that again, I just left them alone for after, you know, obviously clearing them out because that's the hugest part is you have to clear that [ __ ] out. Like that's that collapse ain't going anywhere. Yeah. If that shit's still sitting there or urates and a lot of times people don't see it like you got to almost look in there and and kind of massage it and see like is there anything stuck in there? Because it's not always visible. Sometimes they're deep in there. Um because I' I've worked out a [ __ ] pretty gnarly urate before um out of one of these prolapses, massaging it and whatnot, but you know, clearing them out is the first step to getting this prolapse fixed. Yeah, the the urate a tough urate can do it too. I'm I'm sure. In my example, there were no urates. It was just a single very wellformed size of a walnut turd. Yeah. [laughter] And so, Bill, um do you have any holdbacks from this year? I'm sure you do. like you you held back some stuff, right?

Yeah, I've got uh I don't know, maybe three or four holdbacks. And what are what are those eating right now? I'm sure they're all beasts, but like what what are you what do you have your 2025 stuff eating at this point? Most of them are eating um fuzzy mice now. Okay. Um I try I try to get them to eat, you know, get them get them eating peach fuzzies before I even send them out. Um, I've gotten to the point where, you know, they get ASFs exclusively until they're able to eat uh a mouse with some fur on it. So, you know, ASFs all the way up till they can take a peach fuzzy mouse and then after that it's just peach fuzzies to fuzzies and and then from then on. I do get a lot of people anytime we talk about prolapses, I do get a lot of people who just come to my DMs and say, "Well, is it due to um hydration, humidity, which we've all like talked about, we've all adjusted um like Bill, remember we talked about putting them over water and doing all and we still get them." I think it's all circumstantial. Like it's all case by case and there's multiple ways to cause a prolapse. I think absolutely. I think and I think you can do everything right with hydration and humidity and still get prolapses. Yeah. um you know, but I think really the only things that we can address are humidity, hydration, and and food prey selection. Um and then after that, it's out of your hands really.

Yeah. Um and the Marshall, your babies for the most part, what are they eating now? They're they're already approaching a year, I would say. So, yeah, they're uh whatever they're nine months or something, 10 months. Um they are uh on large hoppers. I'm sorry. The biggest, you know, large fuzzy, small hopper size. Yeah. So eyes wide open like they're just at that stage before they start hopping. Yep. Yep. They probably could take hoppers, but I feed them I've been feeding these guys every week. So I've just been keeping the meals just a little on the small side, but just, you know, more frequently.

How are you keeping up with your ASF supply, Bill? A combination of uh Alex, you know, Alex is producing ASFs and then Alex has a local source of of a pretty large ASF producer. In fact, I just got a hundred red ASFs, like hot like pinks. Red pink. Yeah. Like day olds, you know, like I want them I want them the day they're the day they're born. Yeah, they're perfect. You know, because you give them three days and they're they're not the same size. No, they grow quick. Yeah. Quick. Yeah. So, yeah. Like literally day old ASF uh up reds, pinks, whatever you want to call them. It's It just still amazes me. Every time I pick one of these things up, I look at it and it's got hair on it, you know? It may be three strands. Yeah. You know, but it's a freaking day old and it's got hair on it. Yeah. And the face is more formed. Like it's more of like it's not more of like a little [ __ ] mole looking thing. It it's a little bit more has a little bit structure to the head. You know, the the heads are definitely bigger. Yeah. You know, if you compare a day old pink to a day old ASF, the ASF head's going to have few strands of hair and the head's going to be slightly larger. That's why that's why I assist fed a couple Neos some some pink heads because they they were ASF pinks and they they were actually a lot easier to [ __ ] put down than a mouse pink that just goes to mush in one push because it had more structure, right? Yeah. Way more structure and it's more like more it's bigger. The head's bigger. Um and and it's like more of a ball and it just kind of, you know, pops in. But also it could still get messy. Like it could still depending how you cut the back of the head. It's still disgusting. I'd rather just do I still rather just do mouse legs or again can we kind of get to the gizzard uh topic of what you're going to be doing this coming year Bill? I mean how much is gizzards going to be an a factor when it comes to assist feeding? How are you feeling after all this time about it?

Yeah, you know I still haven't decided the the clutch that's recently being established um I've had good luck with. They've all had four meals. I've got 13 Neos. 11 of the 13 took ASF pinks from day one. The 12th took it the the next time I offered it. And then I've got one that luckily is a is a good striker. It doesn't want to eat it yet, but it's pretty easy to get an ASF head lodged in its mouth. So, I haven't had to really decide on the gizzards for assist feeding yet. I think I'll still use it. Um, but I think I will use it in conjuncture with other things like maybe um maybe a gizzard then maybe mouse tail back and forth back and forth um but I I haven't had to really make that decision yet since we've discovered what we have it about potential gizzard toxicity um in feeding neos.

What about you Marshall you going to still do gizzards if you need to with this uh this up I'll use it I'll I'll use it as a as a um you know kind of a a last resort before I try assist feeding. Yeah. Because I, you know, it's amazing how a a snake that wants nothing to do with the pink, you put a gizzard in front of it, it man, it just takes it right away, you know? Yeah. Um, now I won't feed them as much. Yeah. Um, I think this year I kind of I kind of was doing like one gizzard, one pink. One gizzard, one pink. I don't think I'll do that again. Yeah. Um, unless it's, you know, unless it's needed. Um, but you didn't really have you didn't have any really issues, right, Marshall? Um, you integrating gizzards in with switching up between those and the pinks. Like you you didn't have any of the animals like that I experienced, right? I had I had maybe one or two that uh I had to feed I'm going to say three, four gizzards maybe before they finally took a pink. Um, but I think what I'll try to I didn't even try to scent or anything. So, I think this time, you know, given what's come out and given the information you've shared, um, I would try to at least scent with the gizzard and see, you know, try that before just giving it gizzard after gizzard after gizzard. Well, I I will say that it looks like that the animals that I had issues with with the gizzards have made full recoveries. Um, you know, once they've gotten back on exclusively um ASFs or or mice diets, they they've made full recoveries. I have one that still hasn't, but it's one of the younger ones that that um hasn't had that many rodent meals yet. So, it' be interesting to see if it recovers as well. But all of the others um have recovered. So that that's good.

Yeah. I mean it's also good we you know you were able to kind of notify and you know at least see this happening because I was getting real comfortable with the gizzards man. Um I was I was going back to back like I was like holy [ __ ] these things could throw it down. I was even giving some mail some gizzards like here take one of these dude they're great. But also it's like you know we all learn by this. And so, um, and and to what Marshall's to Marshall's point, it tripped me out how I had a couple that didn't want nothing to do with a gecko, a live gecko, but then somehow at one point just took a [ __ ] gizzard. So, um, but I think at the end of the day, we just want to get these things started, right? That's the whole point is getting that engine going and then once we do, we got to [ __ ] switch it to the next one as soon as possible.

I I still think it's a great nutritional source, right? I think that it just lacks some of the nutrients they need or probably what what is happening is they're getting an overdose of some of the vitamins that are in that in that organ um in that organ meat. I think that's probably what what happened. Um but I still think it's a tool that can be utilized. I would go back to gizzards. Um I've got another clutch that's due to hatch in two weeks. Um, man, if they give me trouble and I have to assist feed, then I I'll definitely I'll definitely use gizzards. Um, but it won't be exclusively gizzards, right? What an error, though, huh? [laughter] What about you? What about you, MJ? What's your What are your favorite clutches of the year?

Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear about your highlights. Yeah, man. I mean, dude, honestly, I want to say that nothing I I'm really happy with the condo production this year. I think that's probably the highlight of the year for me. But nothing kind of feels the same way getting that emerald litter. I don't know, man. That emerald litter is like pretty important to me because I don't have as many emeralds as I do condos. Um, and so again, you only kind of get what you what you can get. And I was just happy I finally got that and held three of those back. And so, um, I don't know, man. Honestly, it's just what I'm just so blessed about the experience I had with the amount of babies um I was able to kind of work with. Because I'm not going to lie, man, a lot of you guys prepared me for what I was going to have to go through. Um but it definitely wasn't as bad as I thought. Um you know, mentally I I again going through so many prolapses. That's what was weighing on me. I wasn't worried about them eating. I was worrying about the prolapse thing because I feel like like we've all said, not a big deal. [ __ ] throw something down their throat, they'll start eating. And I felt confident about that. But then the prolapse, like that's what I was worried about. And um but yeah, I only got three out of the 70 uh to prolapse. So um you know, I take that I take

That all day long. Yeah. And and only one died. Two of them are two of them out of the three are still alive. Knock on wood. Um, but again, dude, what you know, I feel like what kind of not speeds you up, but you can't knock the experience that you're getting when you work with these things. Um, and working with so many different babies and seeing what works and like seeing the whole gizzard thing like holy [ __ ] like this thing didn't want a gecko but it took a gizzard. Uh, and then honestly realizing how many geckos I used this year. Not [laughter] not a lot, bro. Like I could count on one hand how many times I threw a gecko in there, but other than that, dude, I was I don't know. Like, and what's crazy is I got a lot of geckos now. Like I don't know what to do with these. I don't know. [laughter] Listen, MJ, I'll I'll be um up upfront with you and maybe Alex has already shared this, but we surrendered our gecko colony.

I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, you guys gave it a go, but I I don't. But here's the thing. Like, yeah, sure. It's one of It's a cool awesome tool to have. Doesn't hurt. They will take it, but it's also something that you don't want to sustain them off geck. You got to hurry up and get them off something else. Um, so I don't know. Like, it's not going to hurt to have that in the in the toolbox. Um, but it was literally geckos ended up being my last last last last resort. Like the before I had to [ __ ] pick them up by the back of their head and shove something down their throat, I was giving them a gecko. And I only had to do that a handful of times, dude. Surprisingly. So, a lot of gecko lives saved this year, guys. Hope you're happy out there. Gecko community.

Still, you still don't know what to do with them. Well, I just fre off, but they're just, you know, got a bunch of produce. So, if you're my boy and you need a gecko, I got you. So, you know, hit me up. Um, but yeah, I don't know, man. I mean, Bill, I mean, what can you chalk up all your success up to? All the years of going through it, right? I mean, that's kind of what it comes down to is is year after year after year, you just [ __ ] keep learning.

Yeah. I mean, personal experience and uh learning from the good experiences and the bad experience of other keepers. Um, but the bottom line is is you have to learn from your own um mistakes, your own failures and your own successes, you know. Um, that's that's the best um, you know, way to just reinforce, you know, what you're doing right or wrong.

Yeah. Um, Marshall, are you going to take things a little bit serious uh in the next couple years? And what I mean by serious, like dude, like the more heat you produce, and I know you're going to have you're going to have probably a bigger year next year for sure. But when are you going to start hooking up the peasants, man? Like when when are you going to start throwing crumbs to these [ __ ] and start spreading out your collection to some of these people? Maybe. Like, are you at are you even at a point where you're looking at some of your stuff this year like, "Okay, I could part with that. Maybe I can let go of that." Any of is that any of that happened yet at all in your room?

Not really. Damn. I mean, wow. You know, like as long as I've got as long as I've got adult cages that are empty, um, which, you know, I've got I've got six wholebacks now from 2022. Um, that are coming up on whatever they're that makes them four over three year coming up on four years old now. So, three and a half. Um, that are in, you know, f big five gallon cambros that are ready to be bumped up to adult adult cages.

Nice. Um, and I think I've got maybe eight or nine adult cages empty right now. So, dude, my god, I need that so bad. I my adult my adult cages all maxed out, dude. I ordered more. Shout out to Stephen and Ashley. Um, but man, that's that's what it comes down to sometimes is the real estate. Like, you got you got cages. I mean, Bill, what I feel like you that's not an issue for you, Bill, or is that, you know, like having this stuff ready for the, you know, holdbacks and whatnot? Are you running out of space at all or no?

Um, I would say no. I've I've still got plenty of of room. You know, those uh Camro racks that Stephen and Ashley make uh with the big Camro tubs are so efficient space-wise.

Yeah, they are. you you could have so many uh subad adults and and even adults in those uh camro tubs and they take up in a rack they take up literally very small amount of space. Um, so no I've got room I've got grow out room. Um, but again I've talked before I don't really want to grow my collection too much. I don't, you know, I don't want too many more adults and I'm I'm I'm pretty satisfied um, you know, with the stock that I have on hand.

Yeah. And you know, I'm sure Marshall, this coming year, you're going to be all over your [ __ ] as far as holding it back. I mean, on a truthful level, right? Um, I I mean, just Yeah. A lot of factors at play, but yes. Um, you know, we'll see. I mean, right now looks like uh I've only got one, you know, one one potential clutch. Uh, and I'm really not had much luck so far with any other pairings.

Everything that everything else that I've paired has like basically wanted nothing to do with each other. So, um, for now, you know, I'm still trying. I'm giving, you know, the weather's changing a lot now. Like we've had our first we've had a couple cold snaps where it's gotten down into the you know, into freezing but not on a sustained level. Like this is the first week where we've got like you know, 10 days where it's going to be in the 30s every night. Um, so that's a pretty significant change. So I'll I'll give it another you know, I'll keep trying them and maybe uh maybe try different um try mixing you know, try a different male next time. Um, since I put this, you know,

I I think the ability to mix and match is is really important. I had uh, you know, I started my pairings really for the first time this week. I put Sickness 2.0 in with a a new female and he immediately grounded himself. I mean, three three days on the puppy pad. And so I took him out and I put him in with the female that he was successful with last year. They immediately locked.

Really? Chemistry. So, but also she's just ready probably like she's probably at that ready. Maybe the other female's not ready. I mean, it's got to be the female right when he? Yeah, he's immediately grounded. Then you put him in with a different female and he he locks right away. That that's a female issue. You know, she's just not ready or incompatibility issue. But my point is is, you know, to have the ability to do that and and a lot of people don't. You know, they're stuck with, you know, one male or two males and two females and Yeah, that's able to to to try out different compatibilities, you know, makes a difference. Again, we've talked about it before. It it all goes back to, you know, your successes based on your on your numbers.

Yeah. And I've also got I forgot I've got another hadn't even thought [clears throat] about this because he's still he's still in quarantine mainly because I've just been too lazy to move the quarantine rack into the main room back into the main room. But I've got the snake that I picked up from uh Brian Susan on trade which he's been in quarantine for well over a year now.

I was say that was a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. Still in quarantine? Because like I said I've just been too lazy to move him out. Um, but he's ready to go. He's a little he's a little on the small side. He's three and a half years old, so I mean I could throw him in and see what happens. He's definitely, you know, of age. He's a little on the small side, but um I may give I may give him a shot, too. We'll see.

I had a dude when I went to Brian Susan's house, he was showing me all his holdbacks. They're already like three years old. I'm like, "What are you feeding these things?" He said, "Hoppers." I said, "What the fuck?" [laughter] Why? He's like, "I don't want to deal with that prolapse bullshit." like he wasn't he was somebody like he was in the game and they kind of obviously got really uh he got success in other species so he kind of just he put condos on the back burner but went through [ __ ] hell with them and that never leaves you obviously. So he was just doing what he had to do to keep them alive I guess but not [ __ ] get the prolapses or whatever but dude [laughter] I was like Brian you need to [ __ ] feed these things dude because I mean they're [ __ ] gorgeous animal. Remember I sent you guys pictures? I'm like bro look at these [ __ ] things. They were nuts, but they they were all tiny. Um,

So, yeah, again, like, God bless. He just didn't know better, you know, but I was like, "Bro, feed these things, please." [laughter]

Um, damn. So, okay. So, here's another thing, guys. Um, the whole cruising thing, males cruising, is that always been the case that they want to get paired in your guys' book when you see that, or is that not always the case? Um, I'm just wondering how true the whole like male cruising thing is that it's a sign they want to breed. Um, I've had a couple males where I put I pair them, even a mult multiple females, they don't do [ __ ] They're just, you know, whatever. But also had males that do pair and lock up. I'm just curious what you've guys experienced with the whole cruising thing.

I mean, I think it's a good sign they're cruising. Um, to be honest, I'm not out in my room a lot in the middle of the night when they are cruising. But I'll go in and I'll see, well, they've knocked two of the three perches down.

So, I I know they've been they've been cruising. Um, but I don't think that's a a huge indicator of if they're going to lock up or not. I mean, I think

Well, plus you don't know why they're cruising. I mean, you got a room full of females. You might put him with one and she maybe she's not ready or you might put him with another and maybe she is ready. I mean, who knows where he's getting the the scent from.

Yeah. Or maybe he has to take a massive [ __ ] [laughter] I mean, possibly, right? Um, I got a question for you guys. You know, I I think a lot of the times people get the assumption that, you know, we feel what we work with is kind of pro-choice for anyone coming into the game. And I always feel like it's all depend what I mean, if you like locality stuff, go for it. If you want locality and designer stuff, go for it. But, you know, uh, in your guys's eyes, and we'll go with you, Bill. Um, if you have someone who is either a customer of yours or they're asking you questions about help and they ask you about locality stuff and like is it important to work locality into designer stuff? Um, what would you say to that bill? Like what would you be your answer to that person?

Well, I think it's just completely based on two things. um people's choice, you know, what they want to work with and then again people's financial ability to work with animals. And obviously locality stuff you can get at a lower price point. Um, you get it from a you know, a reputable source and it's captive bred. It's the same same animal as a designer just a different paint job. Um, so I I recommend people if it's their first condo to get a locality or a locality cross. Um, you know, and not uh blow the bank on your first condro and make sure it's right for you and you're right for that. You know, we've said it before, Rico's famous quote is not all people are condro people. Um, and you're not going to know that until you get one.

Yeah, true. So I think locality um localities were the first thing I ever got um getting into it. Um, so I think it's a whether you want to use as a stepping stone and learn from it and move on to designer stuff or if you just want to work with strict locality you know, no right or wrong.

What do you have to say Marshall? Yeah, I mean, you know, all things come in cycles in this hobby. You know, you just think back about what comes in and out of what comes in and out of you, say style or whatever. Um, and sooner or later, there's not going to be any more localities. So, uh, and everyone's going to be working with designers. So, even though maybe they're they're they're more inexpensive now, maybe it's not always going to be that way. I mean, who knows? Um, I don't I do like the idea of getting new blood in. Um, I haven't really done it myself just because I've been line breeding so heavily just for the albino. Um, but I do think like if this albino was a male, 100% I would buy some some some uh locality bo females from, you know, from Patrick or from whoever. I'd get a few and breed the albino straight to that and just get just get some new uh some new some new blood in there. Patrick or or NJ

Marshall makes a great point. You know, you there there are not a lot of people that if they have a a bo 5-year-old female [snorts] and they have the choice to breed it to a bo male or a designer male, you know, if you if you're just talking about financial incentive, it's a no-brainer to breed that Bak female to a designer male. you know, it's it's a no-brainer, you know, financial wise. But if you're a purist and you want to produce pure Box, you know, then go for it. I haven't seen that. I don't know a whole lot of people that are just cranking out pure Box, you know, that have five, sixy old breeder Bak females.

Yeah, Patrick. Yeah, he he I mean I think he has a four-year-old female that he produced in 2020. I know Patrick, you're in the you're in the chats or 5-year-old female that he held back, but not a lot. You're right. There's not a lot for sure. I mean, I held back quite a bit. Um, but again, too, like it depends what your goals are first and foremost. And like, are you in a rush to make something crazy? Because we all know everything stance from locality stuff. If we kind of go back to the beginning days, it all came from locality [ __ ] So, I mean, one thing that always stands out to me, um, is, you know, look at the Monory line that Gary works with and and like look how many years of proving that out what it does. Now, that's

David and David as well. David, of course, 100%. Shout out to David Brahms. But, you know, you're not going to pay $1,1500 for one of those red neos. I'm sorry. You're going to you're going to be paying a lot more money closer to designer cost money. Um, maybe not fully like black neo money, but still few thousand easily. And those sell like hot cakes. Like those you can't those [ __ ] snakes sell so quick. Those those David Brahms um monorories and those those product lines that Gary have hot cakes dude. Seriously. And so and yeah, that's technically pure locality [ __ ] So I think there's still so much meat on the bone right guys even with locality stuff. Like it's I I'm I'm a fan of people who are all gungho about making like locality stuff even more crazier because how many years of work do we have behind these pure localities? not many. So, we're going to see crazier [ __ ] as we go along if if we stay true to these uh some of these locality projects. Um, so, we have a lot

To be a a much longer project though. Yeah. Way longer. As opposed to taking say, you know, a melanistic designer animal and plugging it into a bo, you can get crazy [ __ ] you know, first generation.

Right? Exactly. I mean, that speeds everything up, right? Um, but again, how deep are your pockets? you know, not everyone has designer pockets, right? Um, and again, I feel like there's there's entry levels for everybody. Um, I dude, I could not I couldn't even afford imports when I first came in and I eventually was able to afford an import. Um, and now I'm on Bill's [ __ ] ass and Marshall's ass for a Neo all the time. So, you just that's just how you evolve into things. Um, but it's also like to each their own, too, right? It's kind of like we're at a buffet, dude. There's four different countries with their food. Go I don't know what you like to eat. Go figure it out. And so you kind of have to figure out what your goals are. Um, because you know, we're you know, shout out to Carly, but man, Carly is making some crazy [ __ ] yellow neonates right now that stay yellow. I feel like like some of that Kingline [ __ ] that she's working with. Um, and there's she's one of many people right now I feel like that work with really awesome lines of yellows. Of course, Mark Hager. Um, you know, then we have John, is it L? Luck Lucky. John

Lucky Lucky. Ley, right? Leky. I think so. We need that guy on the show. John Leki, please come on the show. Appreciate it. That'd be great. Almost. I keep bugging him about it. But yeah, I mean, either way, right, I feel like pick your you choose your weapon. Do whatever you choose. Um, I don't think you could go wrong. This is this is an awesome game to be in.

Yeah, you know, any good any any Condor clutch is a good Condor clutch.

I'm just kidding. [laughter] I stand by my statement. That is facts. Honestly, all all jokes aside, you're not going to frown at a [ __ ] clutch of condos that are all perched, that are all out of the egg. You are going to frown at the if they're dead in the egg. I'll tell you that. [laughter] That's just normal though as far as dealing with that [ __ ] But you're right, Bill. I mean, and even dude, even my ball pythons, man, like I love I love I love breeding [ __ ] I like seeing them alive. Like, it's such a cool thing to experience. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Um, but man, nothing can nothing nothing compares to Condro, man. I I love everything, but I feel like that's the biggest reward I've experienced in the reptile game is green pythons because the uphill battles that are involved and the scars and the [ __ ] you know, the [ __ ] that you have to go through to finally, you know, where you could take a deep breath and say, "Wow, like I did it." You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. When do you say you did it? Technically. Right. When? I mean like you know I say I did it when I've got 15 meals in a condro and then I go well okay I did it. [snorts] Yeah I guess 15 but even then you're not even out of the woods. Like I mean I I don't know man. Like I think obviously one thing I've experienced this year and you guys could attest to this is like you have a good feeling about a Neo when you see it the way its demeanor it's the way it eats. Like you just have a good feeling right Bill? Like I'm sure you've seen like you're going to be a [ __ ] stud. You know what I mean? Like

Yeah. Like shows no flaws in the way it perches. It's [ __ ] here. It's It's here to be here. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, another question for you. Actually, hold on. Go to my uh my outline here. Excuse me. Um

Marshall has his if you need it. I know. Well, um Okay, guys. So, kind of bridging the locality talk into like are we do we really shame yellows and do we really think yellows have no purpose in this hobby? Why don't we go to Marshall first? I

I do think I do think we shame them. Um,

Damn. I do think we shame them on the show. Uh,

I feel like you prepared. Wait, wait, wait. Let me let me let me start over. I do feel some people on the show love shaming yellows. Um, [laughter] I'm not going to say any names, but um, [laughter] I like them both. I mean, obviously I don't produce a lot of yellows. I haven't just because people want reds. Um, but, you know, I I like them. I like it. I like a yellow every now and then. My first Condra I ever bought was yellow. Uh, you show people who are just getting into it. you know, when I first um when I the very first one I bought, I wanted a yellow. Uh, it wasn't until I, you know, met Eugene and met Trooper and then that's when the brainwashing with the reds started. [laughter] Um, so, but you [clears throat] know, is it is it uh is it deserved? I don't think so. I mean, is it is it I don't know. Maybe it is deserved. I mean, it is it's it's not it's not untrue, right? I mean, we're just so much further ahead. selectively breeding for reds that um who knows if the potential is there for yellows. Um, yeah, you know, I don't I think I think it's going to be a long time before you see yellows that are on the same level as reds as far as like designer go designers go. But, you know, that just depends on the line. You know, some some of the high yellow stuff like you were mentioning earlier, you know, those are all yellow babies. some localities look better, the yellow ones look better than the red ones. Um, so I don't know. It just depends. I think the fact that, you know, just those reasons and uh I think that they do get they do get a bad uh get an unnecessarily bad bad rap.

All right, let's [clears throat] go to Bill. Well, I think we shame them in jest. [laughter] So, you know, it's like it's like picking at the picking at the slow kid at school. You know, [laughter] you just you know, in your heart you really love them, but they're easy targets.

Holy [ __ ] bro. What the [ __ ] [laughter] Wow, dude. So, we definitely shame them then. [laughter] I think we shame them in jest. I mean, I'm like Marshall. I bring somebody into my room and they see a red. Now, not necessarily a black neo, okay? But they see a red, a typical red that's in my room, and then then they see the yellow. Most people go to the yellow. They like they like the look of a yellow neo better than the look of a red neo.

I just think okay I just I had a Google search shame. What does it really mean? I feel like this is a pretty strong word. It's it says a painful feeling or humiliation uh or distress caused by consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. That is wild. I don't Are you sure we shame him like that?

I'm sure I know there's foolish behavior on this show for sure. [laughter] There is definitely foolish behavior on the show. I digress. Um, okay. [laughter] Well, I just want to say because I feel like what one of the things that I get and I based off what Marshall just said, [ __ ] maybe I deserve it, but people are like, "Oh shit." Like, "Yeah, careful. Don't want to hate MJ or don't want to talk about yellows around MJ because he hates them." And I and I don't, dude, that's not the case at all. Like, I don't I don't think yellows have no purpose. I mean, I feel like I feel like if we Here's the thing. People who are spending a lot of money in this game, they want some sort of certainty for something amazing. They want something cool, obviously. That's why they're paying a lot of money. We can't give you something really certain in general. But we feel a lot more confident giving you a [ __ ] black or red looking Neo and telling you you you're getting yourself something special here versus a yellow NEO. That's all I'm saying. If you want to talk about where your your money that you're spending thousands of dollars on could go to that's going to potentially get you something [ __ ] insane, well then historically we know that's what red needles are doing. And we just don't have that with yellow needles yet. Um, yet, right?

Yeah. But but but you look at the price point of a yellow versus a red. Yeah. Night and day. Night and day. It it's a half half of the price. I mean or or less than half the price.

Yeah. Yeah. So, if you're somebody getting into the game, it's perfect. Then I think absolutely, you know, acquiring yellow neos and working with them and getting experience with them, you know, is a great way to go. I I I recommend it fully.

Yeah. And I think Mark Hager brought this up. I think you could get some really insane [ __ ] when you go from red to yellow neos. Um, you know, make sure that red's a red dominant. But I'm just saying like you could get some really, really cool offspring when you mix the two neo colors together. Um,

Oh my god. I mean, Jagger Biscuit, there you go. Classic example. You know, they threw red and they threw yellow and uh, some of the yellows turned out phenomenal. High yellow, but some of the reds turned out like sickness 2.0,

Dude. Okay. And we know people who've boughten Joerger Productions that are red dominant. You know that, right, Bill? I mean, Alex Alex is one of them.

Alex top top cheddar is red dominant. I didn't want to say it cuz last time I said some information, he got so mad. MJ, he just he post he posted that yesterday. Posted it that that Top Cheddar's red dominant.

Yeah. Yeah. That's I'm not I'm not up to date. Congrats, Alex Warren. That's amazing. Uh, but yeah, good good point. Okay, so let's talk about that about that, Bill, because Joerger was a yellow Neo or a red Neo, I'm sorry.

Yeah, Joerger was red. Biscuit was yellow. red that could produce both.

Uh, yeah, but Joerger was not red dominant. Okay. Yeah. Right. Because he could produce both. He could produce yellow. Yeah. So Joerger's um so the I guess responsible person of making a Jerger baby red dominant was the female. What female was that? That top cheddar female. I mean, sorry. The top cheddar baby came from female.

I can't remember. I think it was a yellow female. Yeah, it had but but how would how would that baby be a red dominant then? There's no way.

No, no. Top Cheddar was red dominant because he was bred to a female that was yellow and the clutch the resulting clutch was all red. So that's how he determined

No, but I'm talking I'm talking about Top Cheddar's mom, right? So h because Top Cheddar is a red dominant. So how how is that possible? Like since Jerger could do red and yellow, you would need to have a female that's a red dominant.

No. Uh, you just would have to have a female that was red. She wouldn't need to be red dominant.

Okay. So it just has to be red. But that also depends on her lineage of red too though, right? Because the more reds the more reds involved in this lineage, then the chances are you could get red dominance. But like like for instance, if you and I'm just curious because if you have

If Jerger [clears throat] were to bred to a red neo, but also could produce yellow, then you're not going to get a red dominant baby out of that pairing. Correct.

No. Yeah, you can. You can. One in four will be red dominant.

It's like It's like head head to head. It's like head to head. You can get visuals from head to head just like Yes, Marshall's right.

Okay. Because I I thought if that snake had possibilities of producing a yellow neo, that's still technically could only make a hat. It can't make a red dominant. Um, but no, so if it's a red

No, it can. You can as long as both parents are red, you can produce a red dominant neo.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And we we've all talked about like they're not quote unquote being morphs in a sense in Condros, but I mean I feel like do you think that's going to change at some point? I mean I think maybe not only with stuff that could pop up or stuff that we could see out of the wild, but at some point in time this whole red dominant thing has to lead to something you would think, right? Like how's this even a thing if there's no morphs?

Well, there are no because the phenotypes of a red dominant could be anything, right? could be from could be blue, could be yellow, black, whatever, right? Doesn't stay red.

Yeah. And when you're talking about morphs, you know, I I'm considering like albino, you know, albino is really Yeah. The truly only morph in green pythons. Um, I'm just waiting for a pi to pop out.

Yellow is a morph. Ryan said Ryan also said real condro are only ones worth having. Whatever that means [ __ ] guy, dude. Whose friend is that? Oh, speaking of friends, check this out, guys. I got something I want to share. Um, this isn't on the agenda. I apologize, but apparently Ryan's homie produced bowling. [laughter]

You had to you had to go there. APPARENTLY RYAN I'M just kidding. That's not Ryan's friend, but guy. Oh, wait a minute. It was a joke. Okay, I I take it back. He did not produce uh B guys Guys, can we talk about this? This is wild. Bill, have you ever seen this before? Someone lying about producing bowling pythons. What's your take on this, Bill? I gotta ask you.

Well, I I'm certainly no Bolan's expert. I I wouldn't know if Captain from imported from, [laughter] but uh yeah, that picture looks pretty shady. Um,

You don't put you don't put shredded paper in with your in a in little wooden [laughter] wooden birdouses. I I think even if you look closely in the wood box, it says made in Indo. If you look close enough, it says PNG right there. [laughter] The shredded paper. Nobody in America uses shredded paper as a substrate. Nobody. Like, dude, clearly I don't know what the [ __ ] this guy was thinking. Um, Marshall, your years of experience in the hobby, what what what does your head wrap around when you see something like this? Like, what what do you think?

I don't I don't know, man. I don't uh No, I'm not really in the market for any bowling, so I didn't really give a [ __ ] Uh, but um, you know, you got you you can't um with the internet, man, it's a small community. It's a small, you know, as

It's a trap, man. It's a trap. There's no way you can do anything nowadays and not get caught. Not get caught if you're lying or you're ripping somebody off or you're selling bad animals or you you know a deal goes bad or you know whatever there I mean everybody it's so easy for somebody to make a post and then the whole world knows everything you know.

Yeah. So I don't know what this guy was thinking. I don't know him that well. I've never met him. I mean, obviously, I've known him from I just know him through Facebook or whatever, but um I don't really know anything about the guy. Um I think that was pretty foolish to think he was going to post that and get away with it. Um

And what about the fact that he said he even said his partner like I think his name was Allen. He's like, Allan finally after all these years of work, our our fruition has come true. [laughter] Dude, what the [ __ ]

I was like, poor [ __ ] Allan, man. That dude just had his [laughter] heart shattered. Allan had a Allen had a rough week for sure. That's a [laughter] rough That's a rough week right there, boys. He's probably going by every message that's saying congratulations. Just deleting it. [laughter]

How many people do you think contacted uh him and saying I you know when how can I get one? How can I secure one? Put me on the list. Put me on the list. I got to be careful because a lot of my friends liked this [ __ ] post and there were so many people who were like, "OH MY GOD, YOU DID IT." AND at first I was like, "Whoa." But then again, LIKE, HOW DO YOU NOT LOOK AT THIS picture and [ __ ] think, HM, SHREDDED PAPER? LIKE, can we kind of really think about this at first? Um, and again, I know people are just benefit of the doubt. You know, I guess there's nice people out there, but really guys, like I'm surprised people did not connect the dots a lot quicker, dude. It was me. Well, I got green lighted to [ __ ] gaslight this fool and and and god damn, it worked. I'll tell you that much.

Well, I think it was Gary Gary that stiffed him out like initially, right? No. Well, I I Gary Okay. I was I had intel and started started putting out crumbs on this dude's post like sharing the actual original photo of the screenshot that showed 2024.

Yeah. And that's when people are like what? And so and then he was in the [ __ ] comment section saying uh like like basically not admitting it at first until enough people got involved and he's like got you guys. You shouldn't always believe you shouldn't always believe what you see on the internet.

It's [laughter] like uh MJ. It's like the guy that stole that $10,000 ball python off the table and he was caught on and then he comes back and tries to say, "Oh, it was a joke. I was going to give it back later." And that kind of [ __ ] Remember that?

Oh, yeah. Of course. The California show, dude. I forgot. Can we Can we get it? Can we rehash it real quick?

Okay. Yeah, for sure. Oh, okay. [laughter] Dude, oh, we got kicked off of Facebook. I wonder if this dude reported us. We were having troubles. Oh wow. Sorry, Paul. We were just kidding. Um, any [laughter] Well, you owned Facebook. Jeez. Billionaires got pool in this [ __ ] world. Okay. Um, so anyways, all right. Let's get back to I just had [laughter] And again, that's not Ryan Young's friend. I want the record to reflect. Okay.

Ryan doesn't have very many friends. So, I just don't let let's not, you know, [laughter] put put him in with Ryan's friend category because

Yeah, please. I was just being MJ there. I was just kidding. I just don't know how the how the thing started because it sounded like he just posted the picture at first and then he didn't say he bred him. People started asking questions, then he just like kept digging himself into a deeper and deeper hole there.

Okay. Well, well, let's just talk about it. He called me to explain what the [ __ ] he like what the purpose was. And I heard him out and all I could hear is wanting to create awareness as far as how much the people pulling these snakes in the wild are actually getting paid compared to what they're being sold for. So it sounded like he wanted to expose what the people here in America are selling like profit like what they're getting profit-wise which I'm like how does it have anything to do with you lying about producing ball python? And then when I told him that, he said, "I did it to ruffle some feathers and get awareness. It's the best way to get people's attention." That's what he said. It was the best way to get people's attention. I'm like, "Well, how did that work out for you, bud?" [ __ ] [laughter] Cuz you got it. Um, and it sucks, too, bro. Because I mean, I think people who love this [ __ ] enough, they want to see a post of someone producing [ __ ] bowling pythons. I mean, again, that's that's a huge celebration for the hobby when that happens. So, that's just a species that is so delicate, bro. I don't know why you thought

Well, it really I think Gary used the the word uncommon valor. You know, when you you claimed to be a military guy, you know, use your military discount and you you you were never in the military. You know, to me, you know, when he made that post, it was just [ __ ] on all the people that have worked for a decade or decades to produce these things and whether they were successful or not. You know, we know the real players in the game, right?

Exactly. I mean, did he ever did he ever show his adults? Did he ever show any locks? You know, all of a sudden, he just posts this clutch of bowling bowling pythons, you know? It's like it's just a it's a it's just a terrible thing to do to the people that are really truly involved in the project.

Yeah. And again, the whole motive of trying to paint the picture of like the profit being made regardless why why is it in your business first and foremost, like you're not the one [ __ ] buying these and bringing them over first, you know? And and not only that, like who these guys didn't mark up the [ __ ] prices on Bolins? You could blame Nerd for that one. Like that's that's why that happened to that, but the market's the market. Um, and so I I mean, I don't know, man. At the end of the day, I just no matter what the the motive was, not a wise move. Um, but what the [ __ ] you going to do?

It's pretty crazy. All right, so enough of Ryan's friend. Back to the agenda. Um, all right, Bill, you're going to lead this one, buddy. Um, I don't, you know, whatever. I'll let you get into details if you want, but there was a time and place recently where you had a lot of people come to bat for you, Bill. Um, only because there was a post being made that kind of made it seem, well, obviously you weren't be you weren't brought up, but you you spoke up because you you got nothing to hide, right? Um,

But you know, at the end of the day, Bill, like I've always talked about one of the things I'm so proud about having you a part of this is like you inspire me to take care of people. you inspire me to [ __ ] do right by the customers. I've learned a lot off of how you take care of your people. So to see that post threw me off, threw a lot of other people off. But having a name, like having a reputable name, like could really change things for you in this game, you would say, right?

Well, we've talked about it before, you know, especially these days of social media, you can do a hundred things right and and please a hundred people, but if you have one who is not pleased, you know, that can burn a lot of bridges. In other words, that one power out of a hundred, you know, can really, you know, ding your reputation. Um, yeah. And so I think it's really important that when something like that happens, you're totally transparent um about what what happens. Um, and I'm happy to go into details with that scenario. The ultimate outcome was a good a good outcome.

Good. Um, you know, I it was complicated because there were two buyers involved in the animal. Um, and I had you know spoken with one not spoken with the other asked the other to to contact me and he you know about the scenario the situation and instead of contacting me he made that post. So um, you know, I think he he didn't do things ultimately the way that we would expect people to do things. You know, the number one rule is if you have an issue contact the breeder first. you know, try to hash it out with the breeder. If you can't get something worked out, take it to social media by all means and you know, and and and have your have your piece. The problem is is that he did not do that. If he would have sent me that post in a private message or picked up the phone and called me, then, you know, things would have been worked out more easily, you know, on on on his end especially. Um, but he chose not to do it. Um, I I think he was, you know, I'll be completely honest. I think he was just naive about the way things work. I think he I really do think he was kind of an honest I don't know if mistake's the right word, but I think he would have done things differently now that things have played out. Um, so again, really a very small a small issue. You know, when I'm I'm sending out hundreds of these animals.

Yeah. You know, there's going to be an issue, right? I I expect there to be an issue and I'm surprised there's not more issues um than I've had had to deal with. Um, but yeah, this was a relatively small blip. It got taken care of. Um, but it was it made it more complicated because there were two buyers. I was in close communication with one uh, you know, who was an excellent communicator. The other one was not. So [clears throat]

So I got a question for you. um like what's the best policy and procedure behind you know you you you spend x amount of money for a snake you know and we're talking about a billsteagle snake we're talking about a snake we're talking about a lot of money here right you get the snake in you confirm like confirming that the snake's good with the seller that the customer got it they're happy they feed the snake a week goes by two weeks goes by after they confirm everything's good they notice a blemish um you checked it out that week. You said everything was good. So where where does it not land on the seller no more? Like mean like cuz even you Bill like again I'm not sure what the actual outcome was but like let's paint this scenario where I sent you a snake. We both agreed it looked great. You're fine. A week later you see something wrong with the tail. Um and you're just like huh I don't remember seeing that but it they're showing you pictures and it's been a week. It's been two weeks. No, I mean I think it's a gray area. You know, I these animals in my care stay on the perch almost exclusively. It's very rare for me to get a neonate off the perch. You know, expect it inspect it weekly or monthly or whatever, but I do give

It's a good inspection when I'm putting it in the in the container. Um, this blemish was so small I I can't even I don't know if you. There was a picture posted on the post eventually.

See if I can find it. Let me see. The the defect in the in the animal was was incredibly small. Um, maybe it was there when I put it in the tub, maybe it wasn't. Um, I wouldn't argue that it was or it wasn't. My only point was is that maybe it was there and maybe it wasn't. You know, I didn't see it. The buyer didn't see it for a week. Um, so again, a gray area.

So, you know, but the bottom line is is is is if there's an issue, you need to contact me. You need to, you know, make me aware of the issue, which one of which one of the buyers did, the buyer that was actually in the person's possession. The other person has never seen the animal, you know, in life. He's only seen pictures of it and he was only shown a picture of the of the blemish. So, you know, again, it was a little more complicated because there were two buyers involved and one of them hadn't the person that made the post hasn't even seen the animal in life. Um, so but but again, when did the kink occur? Did it occur in my possession? Did it occur during transport? Did it occur in his possession? The bottom line is is nobody knows.

Yeah. And I don't I mean, but I'm like you, Bill. Like, I'm [clears throat] like even before I even consider selling a [ __ ] snake, I'm dissecting every look of this snake before I even think about what I even want to do with it. Um, and then especially [clears throat] when I pack it, right? If I'm packing it, I'm looking for any [ __ ] thing. I'm making sure this thing is 100% minced before I put this in the deli cup. Um, >> yeah. >> So, that's why. Yeah. Go ahead.

Yeah. You know, when you pack it, you obviously have to take it off the perch. They have to have it in your hands to put it in the deli cup, which I did, >> right? >> Um, notice no no abnormalities, no blemish. >> It the defect was so small >> that it could have been there and I missed it. >> Yeah, >> absolutely. A possibility. Um, but it complicates things. If he would have got it and the next day he said, "Hey, you know, I got I got this animal and it's got this blemish, you know, in its tail, that's a no-brainer. That's either it it happened here or it happened during shipping. The fact that it went on for a week, a little over a week, it had already eaten for him. Um, and [snorts] then he notices it, it's it's just a gray area, right? And that's when the communication is vital. You know, you really have to communicate.

You know, I spoke to the initial guy that received it. I I I saw it. I re, you know, I recognized it. I I I noticed it. I affirmed that, yeah, there's a blemish there. Made him completely comfortable that it was, you know, cosmetic. I have 100% confidence that it wouldn't affect the breeding of the animal. And the initial person that received it seemed to be happy with that. But I said, I want you to contact the other individual and I want you to, you know, have him contact me. I want us to have the same conversation that I had with you.

And um and he didn't contact me. Yeah. And he just made that post and he he you know he said he tried to keep my name out of it but when you say you spend $8,000 on a a Neo that pretty much >> narrows it down to about one person that's selling $8,000 Neos right now you know so he he he did you know he did by you know not by definition but he did [snorts] everybody knew or most people that knew assume the animal came from me.

Yeah. And like I said, I have, you know, nothing to hide. I just wanted to address it. You know, the cherry on top is he made the post on Thanksgiving Day, >> you know, which really pissed me off. >> What a thankful [ __ ] moment. >> You know, that that probably of all the things that pissed me off the most because I can't see that post and just let it lie, right?

Yeah, of course. >> Family over here, entertaining people. I see that post. I can't I can't just let it lie, you I've got I've got to respond. I wanted to just [ __ ] wait till Monday and then reply, but I just couldn't, you know, I had to I had to give at least my two cents. And >> it was the way it rolled out ultimately. I talked to the second buyer. Um I talked to the original buyer. We worked something out with a partial refund. And that's the way that it would have worked if he would have just contacted me privately.

Found out this year there's more partnerships than I expected. I mean, there's people who are collabing out there, which is cool. I mean, that's fine. Um, but I think communication is [ __ ] key with your partner people if you have one. And, you know, make sure everything's everyone's on the same page cuz I'm sorry, like I'm glad you guys squashed it, but that was definitely [ __ ] out of pocket. Like, there was no necessary there was no need for that post at all. But >> I think he, you know, I think the second buyer kind of, >> you know, like I said, I think he's a little bit naive on the way things work. I don't think he meant anything ill intention towards me or to try to, >> you know, blemish me or bring me down or anything like that. I think it was it was just probably an honest mistake the way that he went about handling things.

We all learn, right? Um, god damn, man. Just go to the seller, especially somebody like Bill, man, all doors is always open, especially for his customers. Like, come on. We all know that. Um, but honestly, Bill, you handled it you handled it really well. Um, definitely like my something in me like if I felt like I sent you a perfect animal, we agreed it was perfect two weeks later there's something wrong with it, I want to just be like, well, [ __ ] good luck. But really, dude, if he's that upset and he spent thousands of dollars with, I'll send it back. Just and I feel like that's the biggest pill you need to learn how to swallow in this game is just even though you know maybe something might have happened, you got to be the bigger person sometimes in a situation like this.

You know, you know, if if it would have been um a situation where the initial receiver of the animal contacted me the day he got it or two days later and noticed that kink, then I would have been inclined to, you know, offer to send it back. But it's a gray area. >> It is. >> I I I don't think that that that defect was there when I shipped it. >> There you go. >> You know, >> but could I guarantee it? Would I bet my life on it? No. Um, >> yeah, >> the fact that there was just a a lag in the time of of the reporting, then it made me, you know, just a little bit less likely, you know, to just say, "Hey, just send it back, you know." Um, I I think and what ultimately worked out is that we agreed on a partial refund on the animal and now I think all parties are happy.

And that's what matters. Um, well guys, great episode. I promised Bill we'd only do 90 minutes tonight. Um, but before we do end things, let's go around the horn real quick. Um, Marshall, anything you want to close off with? Anything that This is the last time. It's just us in 2025. So if you got a speech prepared, Go ahead, Marshall. You know what I mean?

No, no speech, but I mean it's Can't believe it that my um Facebook anniversary came up. It's been two years since the first episode with Greg Maxwell here as of like a week ago, >> which is kind of crazy to think that it's been two years uh since we've been doing this already.

Absolutely insane. Was Greg Maxwell our very first? >> Yeah. >> Was he? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, he was. Yep. Yep, he was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's That's epic to have him as our as our very first guest.

Well, that was premeditated, Bill, just so you know. It took it took it took a little convincing. I [clears throat] was a little apprehensive about doing it at first just because of the you know I don't know. Um I'm glad I'm so glad that MJ talked me into doing it. And it's been it's been great man. It's been a lot of fun and just uh you know talking to people that I probably wouldn't talk have you know gotten to know otherwise. And um yeah it's been it's been a great thing.

I'm excited about it still. Definitely >> kind of like Marshall. Um just just so blessed that we have this episode. We have the people that you know the people in the chat that follow this stupid show so religiously. Um, it's just it's um you know, it's just uh I'm I'm aed by it to be honest and uh I'm just thankful to to have the platform and to be able to hang out with you guys once a week and we've had some incredible guests on. I've learned so much from in in the two years we've been doing this podcast from the people that we've had on and you guys and so I just uh hope we can continue it strong into in the next year. I mean, dude, I I I could keep going if you guys can. Trust me.

I'll be here. >> All right. [ __ ] yeah. Well, you know, to to capitalize on that, it won't take too long. I appreciate you two very very much. Um, you guys make Tuesday nights everything that it is for people to come and and enjoy the learning. I mean, at the end of the day, we are attracting more like-minded people who just want to do good in this hobby. Um, and you know, some of this [ __ ] helps people's lives, man. Like again, not not everyone is in a good position in life. So coming here, listening to us has helped people. Um, and I hope you guys know that. I I get feedback about us all the time. So I think we're doing a lot more than we think, you know. Um, and and I think it's awesome that I have two veterans like you who want to be a part of something like this that only feeds uh the newer people, the ones up and coming, the ones who are here. We're all we're making this a whole exciting place right now. Um, so and again, I wouldn't be able to do this without you two on this Tuesday night. So I appreciate you two a lot. Ditto, my friend. Ditto.

Likewise. Yeah. >> Uh, we have two more podcastes uh before the end of the year. It's going to be epic. But for now, please go give Marshall Mendes a follow. Red Mountain Herps and of course the mayor Phoenix Reptiles. Go subscribe. Learn from the best. But give it up. It's a WRAP FOR MARSHALL BILL, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. [applause]

Looking forward to the Christmas season, guys. >> Yeah. >> Next episode. >> Yes. See you on the next episode. Hey, have a good night, guys. Thank you so much. All right, guys. Great episode. Again, thank you for all the love and support, man. I'm going to keep saying it to the end of the year, and I'll keep going after this. I appreciate all the support that you guys give us. Um, and again, if you're somebody who likes to listen on the audio side of things, go after it, man. Apple Podcast, Buzzrout, um, Spotify, all the major audio platforms, you can listen to all these episodes. And again, man, I I really feel like this was a year that flew by. Best year of my life in the hobby for sure. It's going to get better next year. here. I'm just keep I keep telling myself that because I only want to get better and I know this network is going to be a part of all the growth and you guys being a part of this means everything to me. It really does, man. So, thank you so much. Um, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, hit that notification bell, select all, be reminded of every single podcast released out of the network. And of course, if you want to support what I have going on further, if you want more behind the scenes VIP outlook on Trap Talk and everything like that, my projects, come join the Trap Talk Patreon family. First link in the description below. OH MY GOD, CAN YOU GUYS BELIEVE THIS? I'M just kidding. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Have a good night. Happy holidays. Catch you here Thursday night. And I'll definitely catch you here next Tuesday on the Treat Tuesday. And I'm out. Sorry for the interruption, folks, but a quick word from our sponsors. Green tree pythons, emerald treeboas, and plenty other snakes have been quite the popularity here at the Trap Talk Reptile [music] Network. Which brings me to today's sponsor, the Reptile Perch. Head over to the reptile perch.com and reptile Perch on Instagram. See what type of design PVC perch is best for your boreal reptile. [music] But first and foremost, I would also check out David Braum's green tree python availability on the website and you can also check out his Instagram just to stay current on any projects or any productions that he posts. Thank you so much, David Brahms, for your ongoing support. Looking forward to seeing what you have to show in the 2025 season. When you think about building a good community and being a leader of that community, nobody comes to mind better than Mark Hager over at Texas Condro. That's right. Make sure you head over to TXondro on Instagram and also head over to Mark's website. See what he has available green tree python wise and be ready for quite the 2025 green tree python breeding season out of Mark Hager. He's a veteran in the green tree python game. One of the best and nicest uh breeders in the green tree python game. He's been putting on the whole state of Texas for as long as I've known him. So, if you want to see all the amazing other condro keepers out of the state of Texas, another good reason to go follow Mark Hagar over at txconros on Instagram. And again, head over to his website, texasconcondros.com. You can find all the links in the description below. Thank you so much, Mark Hagger, for supporting the trap. One of the biggest growths we have in the reptile industry today are the rare species of reptiles that aren't worked with. That's right. That's why I went ahead and partnered up again with Brian Susan over at Sundown Reptiles. Brian works with species such as cahooa geckos, gargoyle geckos, all species of tree monitors. He works with abonia and many other cool species geckos that you can check out all on his website. Head over to sundownretiles.com, see what he has available. Brian's one of the best doing it in the reptile industry today. He's been on the show multiple times. So, make sure you check out all of Brian Susan's episodes on Trap Talkretile Network, but more importantly, for the highest quality of captive bred reptiles, make sure you head over to Sundown Reptiles.com and make sure you give him a follow on Instagram. Thank you again, Brian Susan over at sundown reptiles. One of the things I love about being a part of the reptile industry is all the learning. Okay, learning can be fun and I could prove that to you. Thank you so much to today's sponsor, Gary Scabino over at GS Reptiles. I highly recommend you head over to his YouTube channel, follow all this man's content when it comes to learning about rare species of snakes you could be keeping in the hobby and also just finding out how easy a lot of these rare species of snakes are to keep in general. So, thank you so much, Gary Scabino of GS Reptiles. Again, head over to his YouTube channel. Also, head over to his Instagram to be on top of all of his current work and be ready for a big year over at GS Reptiles. Thank you so much, Gary, for your ongoing support. I really appreciate it.