Transcription
Lots of damning journalism, including by Max Wmanthal himself on the Charlie Kirk situation implicating Israel, uh, including, uh, harsh meetings from Bill Aman, huge Israel lobbyist based in the United States, multi-billionaire. Uh, this case of Charlie Kirk is reflecting something much bigger given the widespread speculation and now investigations leading to damning possible points of inquiry. Now.
So, what what's your reaction to this given your uh following and analysis of the region and your experience to uh doing diplomacy because Israel has also had many problems of late in this arena.
Well, first of all, it comes against a background. There was the National Conservative Conference held very recently in the United States of Conservatives. I mean, they are quite a divided group at the moment. Um uh and they became more divided at this meeting and they divided sharply uh along the lines uh of those that support Israel and complained bitterly about those that thought you know you could be um if you like America first as not support Israel and then a very viferous group I mean a very striking language coming out of from the editor of the American conservative saying, "What the hell do you mean? I mean, we, you know, we are why why should why should support of Israel be part of a America first agenda?" And so there was already a fracture, quite a big fisher opening up um in the Republican side. And you had others and there were tax made on of course on on those who who supported it. Um Tucker Carlson and other Steve Bannon and so on who were who were there um and al although you know we don't still have much of the details of what actually happened with this killing. I mean surprisingly after so long it it remains um an enigma enigma wrapped in a a riddle. It gets more more bizarre as it goes on. So you know it's difficult to be categoric about this. Um but the schism that I said was already shaping up um amongst um the Republican conservatives um was seemingly reflected um with also Charlie Kirk and um his particularly his supporters. Uh and so uh that of course has been the center of attention.
Now, now whether there is any connection with um his killing to this schism in the Conservative party or not, we don't know. There's no telling exactly, but we do know there was tension building up. Um, and we've seen reports and we've had reports from people like Max Blumenthal and and others that there was a big row uh about his seemingly drift away from support um uh for for Israel. Um and others say that isn't necessarily so. Um and then important sort of younger members of the MAGA group like Nick Fuentes has been raising lots of questions uh about why we don't have some details, why the case is so obscured and demanding that they should be um put forward. And uh there's a lot of anger and there's a lot of polarization taking place. Real anger on both sides o of it um from if you like the liberal world but also from uh the conservatives. And I think what it is going to do is two things. One is whatever the circumstances, whatever transpires about this killing of Charlie Cut, whatever comes out from it, nonetheless, it has opened out in a huge way this question of is it America first or Israeli first, Israel first? And whether that's connected or not is not, you know, material. What is material is that this debate has really come to the four as much as because of commentators um who have um produced more and more if you like background um to events. So um even if it transpires um to produce nothing very much and that unfortunately is the history of many of the things that you think some evidence or some information or some new facts are going to materialize. Maybe they're not. But nonetheless, um, this is changing. And it's no wonder that some Israelis might have been very worried about this because, you know, these younger Americans have wide support on the ground. Um and they are um also people who come from a background of tradition and of church uh and have strong feelings uh about this and they are deeply angry. So I would say the first thing is that you know the genie is out of the bottle. This issue which was sort of kept undercover which was not in the public domain very much has you know come out of the bottle and it is around and is not going to be put back into the bottle uh very easily. Um so that is I think that is one o of the most important thing.
I think the second thing is that in a way if you look back at that national conservative conference a little while ago there was a sense that um the Republicans needed to redefine themselves. The young Republicans. I mean, I'm not talking about the uh pro-Israeli uh section, but the young um if you like, the young Republicans wanted to define themselves, and they had to find a way of defining themselves. And so those um uh like um Nick Fuences who seems to have a great uh a huge support among amongst the MAGA um were saying very clearly listen this is not the time to take up weapons. It's the time to stay cool. Uh and he said you know we can have maybe there's small room for consensus. Um maybe not. It depends what happens. Uh but he said what is very clear is we have to defeat we have to destroy the people that have been antagonistic the people that have if you like pushed this war. Um and he effectively I mean this is I think the big thing that is coming out of it that is going to become if you like um a a new enemy. They they have defined the new enemy which is the very radical violent leaning um left that they see as threatening the ones the left that has been calling them fascists and calling them names for this period. Not all have left and they're very clear about that. But the ones that have taken this radical aggressive line, I would call it a manachan line in the sense of man. It is all black or light, dark or light. Um there's nothing in between. And I think we're going to see a much more sort of manakian approach um from the uh uh the Republicans um and that this is this is going to have a profound effect.
Why is it so important? So what if the young are changing? No, it means a lot because actually, you know, these are the people, you know, we've heard about um all of those others who were at the National Conservative Convention, some of the big um donors, the Jewish donors there, calling for support, saying it's crazy to cut ourselves off from what's happening in in in in in the Middle East. But the point is that you know Israel depends is dependent on the United States. It is utterly dependent on the United States. Its identity is the United States. I mean greater Israel is the United States than Israel in in many respects as they as they see things. And so I think uh that what we'll see is that at some point um Netanyahu and some of those others in power in Israel, very divided Israel will start um peering up um from below and we'll look around and see you know well those young Americans they're about to assume positions of some power in the United states, they already assume positions of influence, uh, great influence in some case, but they're going to become in assume positions of power. And when that happens, uh, it's over because uh, Netanyahu will discover that Israel has lost America.
Uh, you know in the domestic political situation in the United States on the Democratic party side you have a big base of people that aren't even really with the Democrats anymore. I mean their approval ratings are so low and the Israel question is a huge one that has fueled that. It's a big reason why Donald Trump won in 2024. Um, but that base is inaccessible now to Israel because the vast majority of them see Israel as genocidal and and they oppose what Israel is doing in Gaza and any anywhere else. But to have this happen now in the GOP side, the Republican side means that the vast body politic in the United States is now opposed to Israel. And it seems like what you're saying is that this is literally going to lead to isolation and is going to have consequences. What kind of consequences uh do you believe those will be uh Alistister? Because right now many people look and they see Israel just kind of out of control and doing as much as it can to u you know conduct and commit as much brutality to achieve its earthwile ends or at least its so-called stated ends.
Well, yes. I I just like to add before I leave that subject of the um Republican I mean one of the things that's quite striking is that the young are are quite religious are very religious and so in a sense we're seeing something of a sort of escatological if you like conflict coming out on the one side the escatology of Israel and of the Talmud and Torah and on the other side uh that of the New Testament. And so it's giving it a new identity as well. Um a slightly different identity when you ask um their question about uh what is going to happen. Um I think it's it's it's pretty clear. Um Israel is deeply deeply divided. I mean, it's virt on the edge of civil war for many Israelis, particularly the the the sort of more secular European liberal Israelis, the people you'd meet more in Tel Aviv and Herzelia. Uh those people really you know came to Israel not to take part in in what Smridge called um you know a war of conquest uh and of restoring you know the Israel they came there for safety they came they were leaving Europe because they didn't feel safe and they came to Israel as a sort of place of safety and somewhere where they felt that the they would be protected it now that's gone. It's gone completely. It went actually on the 7th of October uh or two years ago, but it's now even more the sense that you know how are they going to protect themselves when they are at war with most of the Middle East. I mean they've attacked I think six countries or six places at least in these last few weeks. Uh you know it was not just uh Gaza and the West Bank but it was also Syria, it was Lebanon, it was Yemen uh and it was Tunis. I mean so all of these I mean it is a sort of maestro uh approach uh if you like the law of the jungle and what I think we're seeing which is so important is that Israel is effectively abandoning all the norms of um if you like politics not just the norms but the laws uh the institutions that regulate international politics and also of course dismissing the UN charter. It is a really deliberate if you like tearing up of the inter international um if you like structure a deliberate turning tearing it up to give them room to do whatever they choose wherever they want whenever they want by military force. And so it's it's been it has been quite deliberate. I mean you can see it a breach of norms in every area. I mean just you know what was the attack on Iran about? Well, there were many reasons but one of them was it showed that they could break that norm too as well as other norms. The attack on Doha is another case where they said, "Nope, none of these old understandings exist anymore. They're broken. We don't accept them. We don't abide by them. It's the war of the jungle we are engaged in now. And we will win because we are clever and we have an effective military force um that can impose on on on other states. So that's where they've I that's where they have gone to in the assumption that they can ultimately win.
There is the one piece missing to this winning and we all know what that is. It's Iran. That is the piece that they feel is missing. Iran has to be, if you like, normalized one way or the other or bulcanized and turned into a Syria of competing desperate groups killing each other and fighting amongst themselves. I mean, that was always the norm a long time ago. Even Benorian talked about the desire to have uh you know to have um the region fighting amongst itself because then it's weak and compared with Israel, Israel would be stronger. So that was always the prospect. Uh and that is the missing part. So I think we will see a doubling down uh of that.
Now uh what what is quite apparent is and there was uh there was an article about this just recently that um of course uh Netanyahu and Durma know the bad press that Israel is getting. They know what's said in the international press. They know that there they've lost international support quite widely. But what what was said in this article which I think is written by someone who's well informed was they don't care. Netanyahu and Durma they are not bothered. Why are they not bothered? They should be. Why are they not bothered? For one reason and that one reason is known as Mr. Trump. And they make this very clear. So long we don't give a damn what the world is saying about us, they can say what they want. We have Trump and that's their answer to this question. But this means we're going to see it doubling down and they will continue to double down and they will push the boundaries as hard as they can and as far as they can in this in in this period.
So uh you know it opens up other big questions that we have sort of avoided. It opens up the questions of um why is it that the United States have has not sought uh either to criticize or or restrain Israel's military actions that are clearly illegal uh and against all humanitarian laws. Why has that happened? And why is it that we then see uh the United States um moving actually not just to avoid criticism of Israel but actually to adopt many of its ways of war. Uh it's the United States that has used guile to lure if you like. First of all, it was Hezbollah and then it was Iran and then it was Hamas in in in Doha into a situation where they were all together uh for decapitation for collective decapitation o of the leadership. Um it it is the United States that has supported if you like decapitation itself in Yemen. That was America supporting saying that they wanted I think it was Hexes who said very clearly you know our aim in Yemen is to decapitate the leadership. Uh I mean these are uh these are changes in the global foreign policy sphere which are very significant and of course I mean now we're looking at uh what's happening offshore at Venezuela. Um these boats that are are being attacked and the um those that are on board are being vaporized. Um and you know there's no real detail. So what's what is going on? I I don't I don't know but it looks as if um Mr. Trump is very frustrated um by how he finds himself and that he's not having the foreign policy successes or indeed the financial um war successes he hoped. Uh and he seems to be turning um and sort of uh following and emulating um Mr. Netanyahu whom he much admired uh emulating him um in his um if you like military strategies. Um and uh the background to this, the reasons why um Trump seems um unable to move away um from this complete support. We don't know. Uh that is another unknown reason in this and a very important point in this occasion.
It's also I mean you know this puts him in direct tension with his own base because he is going on supporting look what's happening these days while we're talking in Gaza I mean the sheer destruction the killing everything like this it's putting him directly at odds uh with his own base and it's we know that Trump has said to Netanyahu you you know we are losing the young. We're using losing the young said you know I and he acknowledges the vibe you know he says uh we can see it you're losing Congress too and Durma and Netanyahu just smile and say yes that's right in the knowledge that they have Trump by some reason or another. So it's changing western or at least certainly American and to a certain extent European lesser so but European policies I think shaping it in a in in a different um world uh outside of if you like the charter of the United Nations international law uh and the old conventions that the Vienna convention and the other treaties that that have regulated life.
But the thing that Netanyahu said which has shocked the the public because he said actually we are a little Sparta now. Israel has becoming little Sparta and we have to get used to and you have to get used to the fact that um we are under siege. We will not be able to you know live off other states to trade with other states as we used to. Uh and indeed the Europeans even have begun moving in in that direction slowly as usual but they are mo tentatively moving in in that direction. So he says we are going to become an autoarchy and that we are going to become self-sufficient in military equipment. I mean what does that mean? How much money will they have to spend to become I don't think it's even possible to come selfsufficient in air defenses. I know they regard themselves as in very technically innovative but they don't have I mean even the um air defenses they have now I mean are not really very great so you know what's going to happen and then of course we are going to move to the next thing which is war with Iran and this is going to be a really major major affair And that is going to I think uh change the course uh of of of the Middle East.