Transcription
For better or for worse, Bill, we've all read and heard things about your personal life. Were you able to compartmentalize all of that, or did it distract from your focus?
I think so, but you know, you never know. I mean, my personality, not to get personal, I'm an Asperger, and Asperger's can compartmentalize. They can operate in different universes without the other universe affecting them as much. And so, yeah, I had a nasty divorce, and I still had, you know, feelings about PIMCO. But I think I did pretty well in compartmentalizing them. Not that I didn't wake up in the middle of the night and start damning one side or the other, but when I came to work, it was all business, and I don't think it affected me that much. But, you know, it's hard to know. Yeah, you are not your best witness when it comes to trying to figure out whether something is affecting you or not, and so that's a possibility.
I didn't know you have Asperger's. Is that what you meant? In February of 2016, in one of your outlooks, you wrote about Michael Lewis's book and the movie it spawned, "The Big Short," and you said that you shared an attribute, or an affliction, I think, yes, with one of the heroes, if you will, of that book, Michael Burry. Dr. Michael Burry, and it wasn't his glass eye, exactly. If he got a minute and a half, it's a fascinating story. And so I read that book, and Lewis is a great writer, and he, within that chapter about Burry, he listed ten things that Asperger's have that Michael had as well. And I go, "Some of them were not being able to look somebody in the eye," which I'm not doing very well at the moment. You know, singular hobbies, like stamp collecting, etc., etc., etc. I go, "Alright, that's me." I go, and so I took the book out to my ex-wife. I said, "I read this." And she read it. I think, "Has burgers?" And she said, "You do not." "Not you, do." She said, "You do." I said, "How would you know that?" She said, "Well, you know, when we were having dinner with Bill Gates and Melinda, and that was like five years before, at a Duke reunion fundraiser at her home. She said, we were sitting at the table, and I looked at Gates, and I looked at you, and I looked at Gates, and I looked at you. I said, you were doing exactly the same thing at the same time. Your mannerisms were all the same." And so I had heard that he had Asperger's, a mild form. So I went to a psychologist, and he described it and said, "God, just said he has Asperger's." So I said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And she said, "Because I thought it might hurt their feelings."
You didn't know this about yourself?
Until I read it in that book.
Until you were in your early seventies?
Yeah, but it explained a lot. Not that, and I'm sort of proud of it. Hurts, I wouldn't be telling you. I'm sort of proud of it because it explains a lot about me. Not that, you know, all Asperger's are not geniuses. Some, you know, the intelligence thing is not necessarily a big part of it. But, you know, my personal behavior and ability to relate to people, my singular hobbies, stamp collecting, this and this and this and this. Yeah, it said, "So-and-so, maybe I do." And so I did go to a psychiatrist, and in the first meeting, at the end of it, it's just through. I said, "Do you think I have Asperger's?" And she said, "Oh, yeah."
There is a line of thinking, I'm sure you're familiar with it, that says people with that condition, I wouldn't call it an affliction, do better as investors. Do you think that's true?
I think so. Why? Well, because it, as I've understood it, and in my experience, it's allowed me to stay at 30,000 feet as opposed to be on the ground. I'm, you know, basically the condition is one in which I'm sort of up here. And, you know, it's that other people will know when I come into a room, and they say, "Bill." I'll go, "Oh." You know, I'm up here. And so that's not necessarily good in terms of one-to-one. People think you're angry or an a-hole or whatever. But it helps you to focus on longer-term things without getting mixed up in the details. And so I think it, yeah, I think it was very important because it allowed me to take what we called the secular approach at PIMCO to a long-term view. And it was, it was a good view to take as an Asperger. Now, if I was a quantitative trader, hedge fund manager, day-to-day, minute-to-minute, quibble, boom, not so good.
Interesting. Do you think it helped you identify patterns better?
Probably. But I never thought about it in those terms. But probably from the standpoint of, again, of 30,000 feet. Yeah. It, yeah, because it allows me to just forget about minutiae and to focus on one big thing, whatever it is at the moment, as opposed to five different things.
Do you think finding that out, recognizing it, and perhaps coming to terms with it on a personal level, helped or hurt?
I think it helped personally. Yeah. It explained a lot. But because of, you know, I'm introverted, basically. I'm pretty good here, but, you know, I've always had problems and going up to somebody saying, "Hello." I expect them to say, "Hello" to me. Not because I'm a wheel, but because I'm an Asperger. And so it explained a lot. And, you know, like you say, it's a mild condition of autism, right on the border. Nothing to be ashamed of. Like I said, I'm proud of it. And because it explained why, in part, why I was who I was. You know, not to negate my upbringing, my family background, my, and how I came out of the oven. We all come to the oven with a personality, as you, as a parent, know. You've got to. And I'll bet you they're different, right? They certainly are. So, you know, there's all of that. But I, yet, I think it helped a lot and relieved the burden for me that sort of said, "Hey, it's not necessarily my fault. I'm trying, but I just can't compete with the extroverts like it would be nice to be able to do."
As someone who now knows about it and can look back on your career and identify what it didn't, didn't do for you, what would you say, Bill, to other people, younger people, who find themselves with the same condition who are entering the financial markets as you once did? Is there any, is there any benefit of experience that you would offer them?
Well, if it was the same condition as mine, and I assume everybody's different. I, you know, Gates is, you know, sure, substantially different than me, if he indeed isn't Asperger. I don't know. But, you know, I'd say it's a positive that can be used in terms of careers to be able to look forward and to not get dragged down in the day-to-day. To have a plan to, you know, to succeed. And if you're down, you can get back up, etc., etc. But, you know, I'd also say that the markets are substantially different today than they were when I started. And, you know, it is more day-to-day. This more robotic. It is more machine dominated. And so it's not a negative, but it's probably not as much of a positive because it doesn't, it gives you time to, to work, to work, you know, given market conditions. And I think today it's, it's so staccato, like, as opposed to when I started.