Exposing Warren Jeffs | Rachel Jeffs on Life After the FLDS

So insane, Dad. I know. It was so rude. And he didn't care. That shows how heartless he was. I remember thinking at that time, he's really heartless. I didn't feel like he cared about mother. He wasn't there. She never talked to him before she was unconscious either. He got there after she was unconscious. He didn't care. It was the weirdest thing. And then the whole funeral's about, poor me, I've suffered this terrible loss. When all he was doing was watching porn with underage girls. Oh my god. Like right off he's like hands off my father's wives. Well then he goes and marries them all. I mean, you know, he had a plan in place. Do you think Helman's going to try to make something out of the FLDS or do you think he's kind of just going to let things go? I don't think he's going to let him.

Welcome everybody. This is the Jade and Jeff podcast. I left the FLDS a little while ago. Now I'm doing a podcast. I have my sister Rachel Jeff's with me here. She was one of the first ones. Uh, what? First one, second one of dad's children to leave. Third, fourth. Fourth. Okay. But you were kind of But I was kind of involved with the first ones leaving, too. Yeah. And you were kind of the first one that really spoke out. Yeah. Publicly. Yeah. Do you want to say anything to everybody before we get going or introduce yourself or? I, I'm Rachel. Yeah. Um, yeah. That is that's what's crazy is I feel like when someone leaves their their mind truly isn't free and I feel like a lot of people that have left may maybe you were the first one that really kind of saw through more of it. I mean, obviously it was tough, but I'm lucky in a way that I I truly knew how bad Warren was, you know, in a way that a lot of other of those siblings, they didn't know. All they had to go on was what we said, us, what like I said, or what the girls said, the older girls. All the younger siblings had to just trust that what we were saying was true. But there's testimony around the truth of Warren and his abuse because of they all knew he married underage girls, you know, all these things. Why would he do that if he wasn't already doing that before? You know, I mean, a pedophile once a pedophile always. He always was that way. So it just if you look at his whole life, he he he was like that to his little sisters, then to his daughters and other girls in the school. Then when he became had more and more power, he married little girls cuz he finally was in that position. I think if everybody looked at the whole picture, they would see it was a pattern. He was living a pattern. I agree. But it's so hard to see. It is so hard to see when you're coming from his you're one of his own children. Yeah. Right. I listened to your book on my way up here yesterday and I was just like, like I had read your book two years ago or something. Was it different now? It was different because I think I more fully accepted it. Uh-huh. And it's just different. Yeah. Because you start. One of the things that I appreciate about your book is you're pretty honest about Warren Jess in the sense that, oh, we were just a normal family doing normal things in Salt Lake and and then on the side he was a pedophile. Yeah. It's so insane. Yeah. I look back on our lives and I'm just like, I cannot believe we even. I don't even know if we're real. No, it is. It's like you look back, you're like, did I live that life? Did I really live that life? Wow, that was crazy. But when you're in it, you think it's normal. Yeah. So, you were 8 years old when Warren Jeffs' abuse first kind of started. Mhm. Um, do you think he had abused other people before that? Well, I know that he has because, you know, I've talked to his sisters that he was he'd done before when I, I mean, I one of his sisters in particular told me he abused her sexually when I was a baby and she was over at our house watching a movie with him. He had sent a couple of the mothers to put us to bed. So, I mean, obviously, it happened before it happened to me. And we we I don't think we'll ever know the extent of abuse that he did cuz he had numberless kids at his reach every day at school. I mean, we just we have no clue what he really did. That's true. Yeah. He was the principal. Well, you were 8 years old and that abuse started in your life. Dad is he's been such a like I've been trying to figure this out for my own peace kind of. Yeah. And because we were taught so well. It is the craziest thing how well we were taught morally. I always say I think Warren required us to be what he wished he was. I think he made us be so perfect the way he wished he was and that's what he required of us. And that's why it was so hard for especially the younger siblings to see what he really was cuz he required perfection. I mean, utmost perfection. And not only that, he preached against everything he did always. What's so insane to me is his kind of spirituality and it seemed very genuine. Yes. Yes. Was it not? I I would I've thought that too of like, I I saw him pray obviously, you know, we saw him pray. I think he was very good at manipulating and putting on a show, especially to his own father. And I've I've the more I've looked at his life, he knew how to put on a show. He did. It's It's shocking. Like he really did for his father, for everyone. I mean, you think me and Becky were talking yesterday about why did he wear such ugly clothes, okay? He would always wear brown. We hated his. I remember as a child being embarrassed of his brown shirt, brown slacks, and brown tie-up shoes. And we were like, he wasn't in trying to he wasn't in trying to impress women, obviously. Yeah. And he was trying to put on this humble look that he was just this poor homely boy that was good and then he kept himself around kids where he could get away with what he actually did with his app so he could satisfy his appetite. Yeah. I heard somebody was telling me that Lyle and Lyall got him into abusing his sisters. Is Lyall his same age? I can't. No, Ly. Three years younger than him. I would never believe that. Okay. Lyall. Lyall did what Lyall did. I think Lyle was more into women than kids. Okay. Lyall was I I'm not even gonna say I don't know much about Lyle. I know he did do some stuff, but I'm not sure how extensive it was. I know a lot more about Warren. I think Warren was a lot more evil than Lyall. I think Warren was maybe a little smarter. I higher IQ. Lyall was just play around. I don't know. I think Warren knew what he was doing and Lyall was just following along and wanted some. Well, I I kind of hate Lyall for some reason, though. I mean, Lyall was outwardly mean, like physic more physically mean, and just his words were mean. But he was trying to please Warren with all of it, you know, and Warren was way more sneaky, way more aspiring, way more controlling than a quiet way. But Warren was also very he wasn't very brave. He was a coward in his own way because, you know, how often he had other men give his mean messages and he didn't dare face men in general. Yeah. He never would have a stand up with a man or punch somebody. He was way too baby. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so kind of from your point of view, do you think Warren Jess was definitely like a mastermind trying to take over the FLDS rather than kind of put in a good position to do it? Um, I think he was a mastermind in a way of of aspiring to power. I think he was really good at that. And he like I remember him studying Hitler's book. I remember him reading Hitler's book. I mean, things like that. I just remember thinking, why, why would you read that? You know, I mean, I mean, not that I know other people have studied it for other reasons, but I don't know. I don't know that he was studying it for a good reason. I think he actually was aspiring to power, and he was so quick to accuse everyone else of aspiring to power when he was doing that all along. Yeah. I think he was pretty masterminded about. I think he had a master plan that took many years for him to take over. Uh-huh. You've said in your book that you felt like Mother Net, Mother Barbara kind of withheld affection from their children more than other mothers. Yeah. I I've the reason I say that Warren would always say to us kids, uh, Melanette's mother Barbara's children, well, because Melanette Barbara came from an apostate family, so they're basically Gentiles and I had to convert them. Then I had to be father and mother to you. Basically, they're not worthy of being a mother to you. So, I'm father and mother to you. And I remember they never would like go buy us something or show us a lot of love because it would make him jealous. It would it would make him upset if they did something for us. And so, they were afraid to do very much for us or show us very much love because he wanted us to only love him. And I think that hurt my relationship with mother for a lot of years where I thought, well, father's the more loving parent or father's the kinder parent where mother just didn't dare. She wasn't allowed to do that. And so I I think more than anything, they were his victim first. Yeah. And he put them down and made them feel worthless. And I have heard stories and I I don't, well, I shouldn't talk about it on here, but I have someone did tell me that one of our uncles said that Warren um had sex with mother before they were married at when she was 16. In at Hydropack when she was she was working from him at 15 and 16. Oh, okay. She was working for him and that's why I wonder if it's true and the way he treated her like she was bad and the way he controlled her wedding story, he controlled that was such a big deal to him. She had to write it down the way he wanted her to write it down and it was very interesting. So I'm very suspicious if that's true and then I would realize why she was the way she was about him doing stuff to me. She was probably his victim first. Well, what's crazy is a lot of the mothers are so loyal and they can't see past it. And even to this day, you know, you have mother Nat there and who seems fairly devoted. Uh, do you think that because Warren tore them down? Like, you came from a bad family. You were you were bad. You were bad. You were bad. I am good. I am good. I am good. Made them feel like, well, I'm worthless. That worthlessness, he tore them down for so long that they just can't see past. Well, he's so good. He He brought me to this level. I'm married to the prophet. I mean, all these things. It's just like, how can I possibly let all this go? All they gave their life to this. Oh, yeah. And now, now what? It means nothing. Yeah, it means nothing. Yeah, I know. That that's one of the crazy things about all the men that were close to Warren Jeffs, like Isaac and Nephi. They gave their entire lives and rich. Yeah. And rich. I know. They gave their whole life to this man. And they turned their families so strongly to them. How could they turn around and be like, "Oh, oops. I guess he was bad." I know. They're They turned their families to him so much that their families now are just doing what Warren Jeffs says and they won't listen to those men. Those men. That's the damage done. It's so real. Yeah. That's crazy. It's also kind of like I wonder if they kind of deserve it because they sat going along with so many things that did not make sense. Well, and they knew. I mean, like when Warren going crazy and in prison or well, I think his guilt drove him crazy and living alone and actually happened to face himself and when he tried to kill himself and stuff. They knew these things and they wouldn't tell tell anyone. I think that's shame on them. And then to actually carry out the things Warren was making them do and sending men away and separating families. I think that they're going to suffer for that. Yeah. And even in my own experience, I remember calling both of those guys and being like, "Hey, I've done everything I I know how to do." And they would just kind of chuckle and be like, "Well, just keep obeying your father." And I'm like, we're getting messages that we're going to die tomorrow if we're not part of the United Order. And then you just chuckle and be like, keep doing the best you can. It's like, dude, like make this make sense. Okay. And, you know, in Jeff's family, it came down to Warren would decide basically from birth, I like you, I don't like you. You're you're a favored child. You're not a favored child. You're a favored wife. You're not a favored wife. There was nothing you could do to change that. No matter these ones that were not favored did way more good than the favored ones most of the time, a lot of the time. And there was nothing they could do to change his mind. Nothing. Yeah. That's relieving to hear you say, honestly, because I always felt that the judgment was was not it wasn't just based on your on if you were good or not. Yeah. But because this group was treated like you're good, well, naturally it was easier for them to be good because they felt like they were good. It was harder for this group to be good because they were labeled bad. So they just felt like anything they did was bad, even though they tried way way harder. And it was even in groups of, oh, Mother Net, some of the Barbara's children are special and and not always because there was other special children to degree here and there and they got flopped onto this pile sometimes, but but it was really tough. I mean, and there was a few like Jake wasn't treated special. Mother's child, he was always in the bad pile. I mean, you know. Yeah. But it was just you you still I mean, I remember thinking as a child, I'm so glad I'm Mother Barbara's child. Uh-huh. Cuz then father will treat me better. I mean, you know, that was really sad. And I felt sorry for the other siblings like, wow, father just is not very nice to the other children. Yeah. I felt like I went back and forth. You did. You were favored and not favored. Yeah, I think. Are you an apostle right now? Considered. Oh. Oh, I have no idea. Oh, okay. Oh, I doubt it though because of all the things I say. But I guess you I guess you're I said lots of stuff and I'm still in the celestial kingdom. So sweet. Yeah. Yeah. So, what do you think? You're 8 years old and this stuff starts happening. I wanted to ask you how a child reacts to uh sexual things um when they don't know. Do do you I because you act like you automatically knew it was evil. I'm wondering if that is just comes natural with being a child or is it because Warren Jeffs was teaching that it was evil and then behind closed doors he was doing that. I think a lot of it was I knew it was evil because Warren had taught us it was evil, but at the same time, there's a natural shame that comes with it. So I was confused, like, is this my fault? Cuz there's a shame. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel natural. Like you grow up and have sex with a man that you love. That feels natural. That feels right. You have that experience as a child. It doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel right. It feels awful. You hate it. And you feel so much shame. And you're not sure where to place that shame, on yourself, on him. Like my common sense told me it was his fault. I knew it was, but then naturally I was like, is there something bad about me that's making him do this? Cuz he's supposedly such a good man. So I I I was very confused at why he was doing it. So, and I and when you go through that experience, all of a sudden, because I was a really happy, cheerful child, really outgoing and from that moment on, I felt like the whole world could see the shame. And so, I turned into I closed in a lot and was a lot more quieter. I just felt so much shame and I didn't know how to handle it. And that's more what it's like. And I think I always say a pedophile murders a child's soul when they go through that experience because these feelings are not meant for kids, especially from an adult. And so, there's just it's just so traumatizing. And I think we've seen other siblings, some of our sisters, which I believe were also sexually abused, haven't even been able to have kids because of that experience. I I totally believe that's why they act like that. And I think everybody handles it different. Some people are stronger and some people aren't. But all around all the way around all of us that have experienced that I've talked to, it's just so much shame and you don't know how to deal with it. And then to have Warren start saying, "Well, you wanted this. You wanted this. Try and put it on you all the time." And now that I've been around law enforcement and had a lot more to do with victims as a victim advocate and stuff like that, the truth is all pedophiles make their victims feel like it's their fault. They blame the victim. Oh, you brought made me feel that way. You made me, you wanted that. Or Uh-huh. So, it's just like you realize they're all the same and they make their victims feel that way. It's never the child's fault. An 8-year-old child, let alone a five or however old, can never even have the capacity to think far enough to go there. Um, so to have that happen is just it's very traumatizing. Yeah. One of the crazy things was in your book, you were saying how he basically said the next day, you didn't pass the test. That's a mind [ __ ] I know. Especially as a child, you're like, "What test?" No, I knew what he was referring. I mean, you know, basically, he made me do this, but then, oh, you didn't pass the test. I had always pulled away. I don't know. That's where he was playing mind games, but he always played mind games. He always played mind games and he always put everything on everyone else. He wasn't going to take the blame for anything. He still can't take blame the blame for anything. It's always everyone else's fault. And I think that originated clear when he was a child. He was spoiled. Oh, this poor little preey child got very very spoiled could do no wrong. It got in his head. He didn't believe he could do wrong. Everything was always everyone else's fault. Put it on all of us. And I think one thing as narcissistic parents children are get very talented at learning how to deal with people because I feel like especially as young children and maybe for us older ones where we around Warren a lot. He came in the room. We all tested the room. Is he mad right now? Is he upset? Is he happy? I mean, some days he's really fun and happy. Other days he came in mad. You know, is he grumpy? I mean, every day he walked in the room, you were testing the room, and you were deciding if you wanted to be in that room or not or how to treat him. Yeah. I feel like all dad's kids are somewhat good at reading a room and not also not being confrontational in any way because he would get rid of you if you were. Yeah. Like me and the boys a lot of times we won't we'll have a major disagreement but just let it boil under the surface forever without saying anything or, you know, I feel like that's all through our children. Okay. I think we need to learn to talk better. Yeah, I agree. We do. We got to actually bring stuff to the front and be like, "Hey guys, this is an issue. Let's talk about it." I mean, we all need to come in a room together, figure our life out, and then be like, "Hey, we still all love each other." But no, I think that is an issue. And I think we learned that in being in Warren's family. He was very much that way. Yeah. Coming to accept the truth about Warren and Jeff's is so difficult for was so difficult for me and I look back on it and I'm just like, how did this happen and I can't see the world, you know, every way I look at the world, I'm like, who is who is trying to rip us off here, you know? Well, I think I remember when Mother was going to die. This is how I relate to it. When Mother was about to die, well, when she was sick with cancer, I thought Heavenly Father would never do that to us. He would never make us lose our mother. We're we're too special. I mean, we were taught all our lives. Yeah. We were special and we were God's special people. So, when Mother got sick, I was like, God God, I just wouldn't believe that she was going to die. And so, when Father called and told me she was at the hospital and she's about to die, I was like, I I just started crying. I was like, why would God do that to me? Like, why would he do that to me? I I remember feeling like that doesn't happen to us and then it did. It all happened. And I think going through that experience opened my mind that we are not exempt from anything. And we may even be now that I've left and everything, we may have been very unlucky. Lots of bad stuff can happen to us. And the second we believe that something will never happen to us, it's it happens to us. And no one can think that everyone's going to have their hard experience. And I think we're lucky in a way because I think people that go through the most hard experience, well, they get to make a choice. They can be really awful person because, oh well, they have this excuse that they had awful life or they can be a really awesome person because they had all that experience to teach them a lot about wisdom. Yeah. And I think we can take it and turn it that way instead of or else we're gonna feel really sorry for ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I I don't. It's just so insane to me because right now you still have a big group of dad's family that 100% believes he is this divine person and they listen to his trainings every day. And it's so insane to me that I'm just coming out of. I mean, I've been out for a while now, but I'm coming out of realizing or or that that mentality and I don't know, like they're all still doing all this. How come they can't see it? I think some of them can. I think some of them know. But what they can't let go of is we're the prophet's family. If we leave, we're nobody. Uh-huh. We're the prophet's family right now in their world. They are the most special people. If they leave, they're absolutely nobody. In fact, they're part of a really bad person. If they leave and accept that they're they they have to accept that, wow, I had a really bad dad. Yeah. [ __ ] It's a really bad life to have to admit that. But guess what? That's where you got to pick yourself up and make it better. I mean, I don't know. I I I think it it's tough and I know and when I refer I talk about that people are always like, "Rachel, why don't you change your name? Take Jeff's out of your name." Okay. But it's really hard for me to leave little Rachel behind cuz she went through a whole lot of [ __ ] Yeah. People have asked me that too because I changed my name. They're like, "Why didn't you take Jeff's out?" I kind of think of it like, "Dad does not define Jeff's." We do. I know he has there's one person, but almost every family has a bad person in their family. I mean, is everyone in every family going to go change all their names because one person in their family was bad? I mean, whatever. I mean, we can change our name if we choose. I'm fine with that. I didn't mind not being at Jeff's for a while. But I also if I'm if I need that, that's what I'm known by. That that's what I I'm known by. I mean, I can be a per the person I choose to be. Yeah, I agree. Um, it's just so insane to me that when I listened to your book the first time, I just didn't under like things just did not click, you know. Well, it's cuz you every drop of you is like, "No, no, no. This and you were told for years, Rachel's lying. Rachel's lying. Rachel's lying. Apostates lie. Apostates lie. Apostates lie." So to get that out of your head was like probably super tough. Yeah. I remember in 2020 then I was driving. We were going over to see Melanette in the hospital and Rich Rich A called me and he he was over living in uh Iowa. Mhm. And we were talk it was right when Jake was leaving. Okay. And we were talking about a bunch of the boys leaving and Rich was telling me, he says, "I know Rachel better than anyone." And is this hurt? It'll probably hurt. I'm sorry. No. Say it. He says, and and you can't you trust me. Trust me, you do not want to believe what she says. Anyway, he says that to me, I think probably, but what's interesting is father literally admitted to Rich that he had done that. So Rich knew. So he probably was like, "If you listen to Rachel, you're going to leave because it's true." But the truth is he knew it was true because father admitted it to him. Yeah. I remember when But father had told us to never speak of it. So and so probably he felt like I've got to protect you guys from the truth of what Rachel has to say. Uh-huh. Well, I was pretty close with Rich and we were uh I was living with him when you left. And that was painful. I mean, he really wanted to call you. He kept asking if he could call you, but that was the only person that I would talk to. Yeah, that was I told Isaac that's the only person I would talk to. And do you know what Isaac said, Rachel? I tried to convince Richard to call you even though your father said not to. And he wouldn't have. Isaac told me that and he still wouldn't. Yeah, that's crazy. So, Rich Yeah, I really liked Rich. I know he was good friends with him. Did he cry? Oh, I'm sure he cried. He He was going through it when you left. Good. He He should have let talk to me. He would have left if he would have talked to me. Yeah, cuz I would have told him that he it didn't only happen to me. That's what's so insane though is he he's in this kind of spiritual thing. He's big on dad's spirituality, you know? He's really big. He's really He's too trusting and he's too much of a follower. Mhm. Yeah. I It's amazing that he chose our father over his father when his father was kinder and our father was so terrible and he knows it. The I think the most shocking thing about Rich is Warren literally admitted to Rich that he sexually abused me. Oh, he literally admitted it and Rich was just like, "Don't tell me anymore. I don't want to lose my testimony." Yeah. Just so the audience knows, Rich um is Rachel's was Rachel's husband. First polygamous husband. Yeah. She I was his third wife. Yeah. It was an arranged marriage by dad. And that story was pretty crazy too. And I had five kids with him. Five kids with Rich. Yeah. During that time, I remember him thinking like they were thinking about, should we go and try to get the kid? Should we um is he was having dreams about God sending or like the judgments happening and he somehow gets the kids. He was I think he was going to all kinds of justifications to think of how he could get these kids back in the future. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Cuz it probably really crushed him. Well, also around that time Sarah took her children. Oh, shortly after that. So I think or right before that, I can't remember. Sometime in there. So a lot of his kids were taken out of the FLDS. And so probably for him it was like shocking and I don't know, I I can see it from his lens where he's very loyal and faithful, but at the same time, I'm like, get your head on your shoulders. How how is God going to save you if you do nothing to help out with your kids or I don't know. It's just so crazy. And if you said you loved us, why would you not do anything to be with us? Yeah. I know in his mind it's like, well, I'll be with you in heaven or all this crazy stuff and you're just like, he's so loyal. Yeah. And I that's that fundamentally I hate that about the FLDS where we all got to the mindset where nobody cared, nobody mattered. That's what I think Warren on purposely was breaking people apart enough. He did. He broke us apart enough, like separated us everybody so much that you started having this ice heart, like I'm not going to let myself love anybody because they're going to be taken from me. So everybody started not caring about each other more and more and more. And I think as we leave, we have to overcome that cuz you still feel that ice sometimes and that lack of love and you're just like, "Okay, it'll take a few years for everyone to warm up again because they've been trained for so long to put ice around their heart so they don't love anybody anymore." Yeah. And I think that's one of the fundamental things about Rich is like he has such a nice heart. He doesn't even feel like it. He He's so loyal to the kingdom of God that he does not even take people into consideration anymore at all. I was in a hard time and dad said that me and mother and Barb were bad. Then we I called him because we couldn't make our payments and, you know, somebody called him and told him what dad said and the next day he like he had agreed to help me and just with like $2,000. Yeah. And yeah, then he just wouldn't even talk anymore. I heard that he was pretty well off, at least doing well for himself. Yeah, I don't know. Shame on him for letting us go hungry. Just I'm so surprised that you haven't gotten child support. That's insane after all these years. I know. I've tried, but it's just been a journey to because he's so far away. Yeah. So, when does this kind of stop with dad? That's when you're 12. No, 16. I mean, as when I got 12, when I turned 12 and my body started changing, he started treating me different, like punishing me in really weird mind with mind games that didn't make sense. I didn't understand why he was suddenly so rude to me. Um, he started touching the other girls more, which I found out later. Um, I So, it happened less. I was just confused at why he was treating me so mean. I I remember I just went through a very emotional time through that 12, 13, 14 stage because he was just really he would take all the other girls somewhere and not me and, you know, he was always on me that I was trying to get boys to look at me and if I did my hair a certain way or anything and none of the other girls, he didn't treat any of the other girls like that, only me. And so it I it was just very confusing. I mean, Becky sometimes he'd stick in the same group as me, so she'd get punished too with me sometimes. So, we were both the bad girls, you know, but it it came to where it still happened until I was 16 and I just stood up to him, you know. I finally wrote the note one night when he had take Oh, he had taken us to Red Lobster that night or something or I can't remember. He had had us come in that room. Oh, he had had me come in his room and he was just being weird, making me sit right by him, trying to just do all the creepy things he did. And I just got up and walked out. And I just remember sitting there thinking, I'm 16. I'm a big girl. I don't have to put up with this, you know? And then I went in and all the girls were in our room and I wrote a note to him about how much I hated what he's doing. And obviously, we weren't taught words like abuse, I mean, sexual abuse or molest or rape or anything. We never knew words like that. All we knew was commit adultery. I mean, you know, that's the extent in my head that it was. I even have a picture of me writing that note. Actually, I was very mad that the girls were all in my room that one of them took a picture of me while I was writing that note. I was just I was angry at him and I went and put it under his door and then I felt so scared after that I went tried to get it back, but he had already taken it. That's a crazy picture, right? It's like, damn. That's when you decided to do that. Yeah, that's so crazy to me. I just I cannot believe how into this religion I was for so long. It's so insane. You know what's interesting? When grandfather died, cuz father had admitted to Rich by then that we were that he had done what he had done to me. Richard said to me, "Well, we know there's not a prophet because we knew he was basically saying Warren couldn't be the prophet because he did what he did to you. um we just will have to live by principle now." So he literally said to me that he didn't believe Warren could be the prophet, but we we'll just live by principle. And I think what changed his mind was Isaac Jeffs because he cared so much about Isaac Jeffs that he decided to believe him. But he was very adamant that Warren couldn't be the prophet at that time. Yeah. I remember a lot of dad's trainings at the end say something like, you know, if you need this, then talk to my daughter Rachel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He kept me close. I How did you feel through those times when cuz this had stopped, right? Yeah. I just was like trusted that he had asked my forgiveness. I mean, no, he Yeah. He had asked me to forgive him. He never said I'm sorry, but he had asked me to forgive him. And um I just I guess I just went with this faith that it would never happen again. And he what I what I realized is he thought cuz when I did offer to be his school assistant cuz I was just like, he's over it, you know, we're good. Yeah. Um, he gave me his key and I didn't think about this for even years after I left. He gave me the key to his bedroom and he's like, come in my room anytime you want. You know, now I look at I was like, that was super creepy. Like he was like, and I just remember thinking, why would I come in your room ever at any time? And he's like, day or night. I'm like, this is weird. I just I didn't think twice of it cuz, oh, he's being good, whatever. And then I realized then after I had the key for like four months, I never used it. Then he came one night and he's like, "You never like in a really feel bad way." I was very confused. He's like, "You never use that key. Give it back to me." And I just remember thinking, "Okay, I mean, what would I use it for?" You know, I was just I was so naive. I just didn't Girl, children don't think like that about their dad. So it was just whatever he was thinking. I never thought. So it was very confusing. And the way he treated me, I was just I was so naive. I really was really innocent. I just didn't think like that. I don't feel like I could relate to him because I did not think the way he thought. So I gave it back. I didn't care. Big deal. I mean, you know, sure, have it back. I don't want it. Yeah. But the I think what's crazy and now that I've been out long enough and I've learned so many stories and learned so much, the truth was he thought I was going to come find him or something creepy. I mean, he just had that obsession and it wasn't a father-daughter relationship in his mind. For me, it was I just he was ugly to me. I didn't care for him like that. I just it's just so weird that he ever felt that way when for me it was like, "Yeah, I have a weird father. I'm embarrassed of him. I know every man isn't like this." Oh, wow. What's crazy is that none of those other men could see through it. I know. Like Uncle Fred, I mean, I guess he's debatable, but everybody just Uncle Merrill, you know, grandfather Merrill put on that preaching exact opposite of what he's doing. Well, if anybody would have done what he did, they would have been so well, even all his the thing is all his wives have I I think the hardest thing with people following him now is there's so much testimony of how bad he was. His wives have told how he taught exact he was doing exact opposite of what he was teaching with them sexually. He was making them watch pornography. All these terrible things, making them touch underage girls, all this stuff. He was doing terrible things to underage girls. Everyone, there's so much testimony that for someone to follow him now is literally insanity. There's so much testimony and they're still there. I know. Oh, I'm sometimes like someone like Heedman, he knows. Oh, he knows. He knows. He's literally admitted that he knows and that oh, well, Heavenly Father forgave him. This is his excuse. Heavenly Father forgave him because he's suffered so much in prison. I don't care how much you suffered. He hasn't suffered near what he's put other through other people through. Yeah. I feel like until like Healeman, for example, now he has a couple wives. It's really hard for him to come to terms with that. It's harder than it was for me. Especially that he had married an underage girl. Yeah. That's what I was wondering is how underage was she? 15. She was 15. That's crazy. I mean, and he had sex with her at 15. Yeah, because they had a child. Well, she had a miscarriage first, but Oh, did she? Wow. It's just It just keeps happening. Yeah. But but once you follow in his footsteps, how would you deny him because you've done the exact same thing as him? Then how do you He could He could say, "I was wrong. I did wrong. I'd feel so bad that I did that. I realize Warren's a terrible person. I'm going to make life better. I'm not I mean, that doesn't mean he don't have to take care of his wife wives and children. I don't think he should sleep with five of them at at one time or anything, but however many he has. But I think he should take care of them and I think he should admit that he messed up because he was doing what Warren supposedly was telling him to do. I think he went a little further than what he was told. Um, but he wasn't really told to. That's the thing. So, I think he could he could turn it around, though. I think he has a chance to. Yeah, I think he could turn it around. You're you're saying his life. Yeah, he could he could say Warren was wrong. All this was bad. I I don't want to be that person. Um, I don't know how far, but I I think everyone should have to not I mean, suffer a little for at least hurting anybody, but um, yeah, it's so insane because I used to be such good friends with him. Everybody did. Everybody loved him so much. Rich loved him so much. I thought he was amazing. He worked so hard. I think there was so much good in him, which kind of made people put so much love and trust in him that maybe all that love and trust hurt him in the long run. Yeah. Well, one of the crazy things just thinking back on it all is like I kind of am really grateful that I was kind of kicked out and not because I can so see myself. I can so agree with you, Nea. I can so yeah, I can so see myself there with those boys in the kind of same mindset if I hadn't been kind of punished away. Well, that's I I always say to the girls I to Mel, I say this to Melanie all the time. I feel so lucky that I was cheated bad as bad as I was after I told Richard what father did to me. Then he started keeping me away from the family. Now he was worried I was going to tell people. So he started keeping me from the family and treating me like I was bad and all this. If I hadn't have told Richard, I wouldn't have been treated that way. But because I told somebody, then he started treating me this way. And I'm so grateful he did because then it made me realize how the difference of Warren treating people good or bad. It had nothing to do with your good or bad or anything like that. I knew it was just what he decided or by I knew for me it was just what his own guilt and I couldn't place it all the way. I mean, it still took me years to come to leaving, but I still deep in my heart knew that's why he kept me away from the family and that I felt like the family would never know. He really did keep you kind of away. I remember when you came to have your baby in 2005 or six or something. I did not even realize that you were our sister. I know. I was like, "What? This is our sister and she has a couple children. That's crazy." You know, I was like seven or eight or or eight or something. Yeah. He really kept me away. Yeah. Wow. Okay. What did you think when dad became the prophet? You you knew all this stuff about him, but you I guess did you still look at him as the prophet? Me and Rich were at the hospital when grandfather died. Um. Really? Yeah, we were there. Wow. To all that. Um, Warren was the only one in the room when he died. So, I don't know exactly what happened there, but um, we were out in the waiting room and then Warren came out and I I I think of Warren's face now and it was really weird. Like he tried to put on the show that he was emotional and sad and maybe he was. I don't know. I think he was a great player and I think from that point on he already had a plan of what he was how he was going to take over. He already I mean, he had lied to us for years the grandfather was going to be renewed just to keep us faithful. I don't know, just so many crazy things, but I don't know. I think he like right off he's like hands off my father's wives. Well then he goes and marries them all. I mean, you know, he had a plan in place and the way he used all these other people to

testify that he was the prophet, put things in their heads, whatever, or or they they wanted to please him, so they would make up these crazy stories of why he was the prophet. And, you know, he used them to tell us that he was the prophet.

Well, right up front, like I said, on the way home from the hospital when grandfather died, Rich was like, "Yeah, there's not a prophet. Um, we'll just by principal." And I was like, "Yeah, that's good." I mean, father couldn't be the prophet because of what he did to me. I knew that you can't be next to God and do that kind of stuff. You know, in my head, that's how it was.

So, when Isaac and Naomi and all these people started saying that father was the prophet, I was like, really? I mean, I don't know. I never truly believed he was a good person in my heart. I never did. I would always wonder. And so like even when he went to prison, when I got told he went to prison, the very first thing that popped in my head, the very first thing was almost a voice. See Rachel, he does have to suffer for what he did to you. That was the very first thing in my that came in my head. It wasn't even a question that he didn't deserve it. I didn't feel bad. Yeah, that's crazy.

Well, but you can't tell anyone. Like I remember even as a child when the sexual abuse was happening. I just thought nobody would believe me. And then one time I told mother, she just kind of had to brush it away and act like nothing. It was so confusing for a child. You just feel like you feel so alone. And so even to have Warren become the prophet and you know all these bad things, but you just feel like no one will ever listen to me. No one will ever believe me because he puts on such a good front.

Yeah. Do you think that Warren Jeff's partially did believe he was this called of God person? I think because that I look over his life and how he's always felt like everything is everyone else's fault. I think from a child he was believed he was special and different. And so I think in his mind he has convinced himself that he is this chosen person. This man basically now he says he is God. You know he he has convinced himself. And I think so many criminals are typical of this where they don't believe they do wrong but oh yeah other people can do the same thing and they're terrible people. Yeah. But I am different. I'm chosen. I'm special. That's how Warren thinks. And I think all criminals are like that way. They they just think they're different and they're more special and they can get away with it. Or or they lie to themselves that they didn't really do it or they didn't have bad intentions, you know. Yeah. Or or they're God's gift to women. Of course, every child and woman should want them. I mean, you know, things like that. I think he convinced himself that he was this chosen person at at least throughout his life. And I don't know. I don't really think he could possibly believe in Jesus at this point because he's denied him in prison so much. So I I don't even I think he's a terrible person, but he just puts himself above God. And I think he always has. I think anyone who would do terrible things like that would have to I don't know. I don't even want to go where their brain goes but it's just if if I think yeah it has been a serious mind [ __ ] for me because I remember sitting in 2011 I got the priesthood and I went to visit Warren Jeffs and he gave this somewhat compelling revelation uh you know from Jesus Christ. was very he could speak, I'll tell you that. And gosh, he had a memory like no other. Dates, times, everything. I just remember thinking, "How do you do that? Is so crazy." And he could remember things and just give a sermon off the top of his head. I mean, gosh, that was crazy how he could do that. But he could speak and it wasn't like super he wasn't charismatic really. He wasn't charismatic, but his little words got in people's heads. Yeah. And played with their minds. Yeah. It's so insane.

So then he becomes the prophet and you kind of come to accept that with Rich. What does your Do you and Rich have a conversation like we know? No, we didn't really. It was more just like, "Oh, we better accept this because everybody else is or else we're going to be [ __ ] I guess, you know, else everyone's going to disown us." So, we kind of just went along with everybody. Um, I didn't we didn't have a conversation. Um, Rich had did bring up a few times, you know, I I you know, once he even said, "I want to know more about the sexual abuse." And then he's like, "No, I don't. I don't want my testimony to be hurt." And I was like I was just confused like, "Okay." Um, but no, I think we just went along with it. We realized to stay a part of everything and then when Warren started making everything so secret and he used Rich a lot. So Rich felt special, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then he started the whole secret thing I think was very master manipulative to make people to want to know the secrets and to be a part of it. They felt like they're being left out. Warren did that to keep people faithful. Things were so secret at the time of the mission. Yeah. 2002. Crazy. That's one of the thing I things I wondered about Rich is if you are that young and you you get given three wives and I do think he was fairly responsible at that point, but then you also get to always help the prophet and your drive. You're going to have a hard time changing your mind. Mhm. Well, you get handed Bishop Ricks and counselor, you're all kinds of positions and you're right next to him and yeah, all that stuff. And he start maybe getting a big head like I am pretty special. I mean Yeah. But the only reason he was getting all those positions is because he knew what Warren had done. Yeah. I don't I don't think he would have been the position he was he was if it wasn't for you. Nope. No, he wouldn't have. And then once I left, he's been nothing. Once I left, he has been nothing. He has been thrust to the wind. Never thought twice of. That's true. He has literally he's been gone from his family since shortly after you left and never been called back or anything. I know. I know. And now Warren accuses him of murdering me. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. And he's just he's just over being faithful. So insane. I know. It's really sad. It's really sad. I I mean, it's so sad that he has chosen to not be in his kid's life and Yeah. It's just really sad that he would do that.

Yeah. So then the mission starts and your mother dies. Was that like kind of a breaking point in your life? I I'm just trying to understand like if your mindset changed during that time. I remember feeling upset. Well, okay. Like I said, I remember that was the point where I was like, "Oh, that can't happen to me." And realizing anything can happen to me. Kind of coming to that I'm not anybody specialer than anyone else. Hearts, we're going to have hard experience. Um, but I think more than anything what happened at that point was the realization like I was feeling very upset at father because father made the whole funeral about him and kept saying how bad mother was and then didn't really let us children be a part of it. You know how in generally in funerals we had the family sits out there and shake especially the children shake everybody's hand at the viewing everyone gets recognized as well not recognized everyone gets treated like we're sorry that this happened you know and for us it was like throw you in the corner pretend you just be tough was like poor me I'm the picked on one throw all the kids that are lost their mother in the corner because that doesn't really matter yeah well can we tell this story a little bit more because you and Ammon Yeah. her children were in Short Creek. Yeah. And she had cancer and she was in Short Creek and then she gets called down to R17 and you guys stay and some of her younger children are down there. It's this whole This is the whole time of like mega worthiness. Well, like Yeah, because she got her children taken away. That's right. She got her children taken away and then so she didn't have her little children. So me and Ammon were with her the most. Melanie was through that time too. Um and then after she had canc so she had cancer and then that whole deal where dad took all his children away, right? Oh, I wonder how she felt. Well, everybody says that she stood she was she just went over when he had all the mothers gathered around and he told him that that that was going to happen. He came up to her and was she went up and she started crying and she kind of put her arms around like Warren you can't do this to me. I'm going to I might die. we might never see the children again. And he just was like, "This is your test, you know, all this." And but the mother net said it was very emotional for her to watch mother go through that and it made the some of the other mothers cry as well to watch mother go through that. Um but he was very heartless. That's all I can say. Took her kids away. Um, yeah, we were with her and then right at the brink of her getting very sick and getting close to death, then he lets her go back to her children in Texas. He says that that proves her worthy. Yeah. But she had suffered enough. He tells me and Ammon we weren't worthy to be with her in Texas. Yeah. We cried. That was tough. We're late sleeping in a hotel. I'd be like, "Am you know when you're trying to sleep and you can't sleep?" He'd be like, "What?" And he's like, "Just seeing if you're awake. and be like, "Rachel, what?" Just see like I am. We're just all night. We couldn't sleep. But that morning, then Warren let us get trained. I was seven months along. It was the most miserable time of my life cuz I was driving for so many hours. We had to drive halfway back to Short Creek to meet Warren to get the trainings, then drive back to Texas. It was so insane. It's like your mother's dying. How he's in the backseat of a Dango. If you know how uncomfortable Durango seats are, it was very uncomfortable. It was just so emotional. It was just such a terrible time. I can't It's hard to even realize it was real. It's so insane that somebody couldn't be like, "We're in Jess. Your your wife is dying and she's almost to like get to a point with her uh brain that she can't uh talk to her children anymore. And there's not time for these guys to go get these dumbass trainings that you're trying to give them just so they can see her. Yeah. Because when you guys got back, she was unconscious. Yeah. Yeah. She was So you never talk to her again. It's like what? So insane, Dad. I know. It was so rude. And he didn't care. That shows how heartless he was. I remember thinking at that time, he's really heartless. I didn't feel like he cared about mother. He wasn't there. She never talked to him before she was unconscious either. He got there after she was unconscious. He didn't care. It was the weirdest thing. And then the whole funeral's about, poor me, I've suffered this terrible loss. It's like Yeah. He's like, I was on the Lord's errand and my wife couldn't be there. Yeah. When all he was doing was watching porn with underage girls. Oh my god.

Naomi Jessup is has to be one of I mean her whole deal was like insane. I mean it kind of it kind of I think messed her up a little bit. Oh yeah. I think for sure. I think mostly just all of you have all this competition and for her I think she was a master a little bit at at make it I don't know I don't want to accuse her. I just I think the most thing is I just think for all these women to be fighting over this they all want his attention and she figured out how to get it. Uhhuh. She figured it out. Yeah. But I don't think it was a healthy way and I think she learned his obsession for kids and maybe fed on that a little bit. Really? I don't know. Yeah, I want to talk to her about that. I'd like you to. I think Yeah, I think she will. I think she'll talk. I I I don't I think it it was a victim of circumstance for sure. I think she was. Yeah. But she went through some insane things. Um Okay. So, your mother dies. Uh what does Rich say at that time to you? Is he like be a big girl? I mean, he was of the same my, you know, he was just going to be loyal to war and he was just on that mission. Everything was about No, he was kind. He was very kind. Yeah, he was kind, but he was kind to me. He I mean, I think for us, we had come back together. We had been separated for a while because I was in Crick and he was on the mission. So, it was kind of like oh, a romantic time for us to come back together. Um, I had a new baby shortly after that. Um, there's lots of growing experiences with polygamy. Wow. Just is Yeah, I was thinking about polygamy. It's insane how the FLDS have made so that you just cannot have close connections in any way. You know, you can't you can't truly be your husband's best friend when you're when he's sleeping with other women. I I'm just going to say that because he's not being your best friend because he's not being honest with you. I mean, yeah. In that sense, we're all in it together. But I'm sorry that every time he goes and sleeps with another woman, you feel cheated on every single time. You can't not. It's not real. And I don't know. You It just Now that I think about sharing a dick with other women, I don't know. It's just girls. But mostly it's like I think that beyond just the sexual it's fundamentally um well because he has to lie to each wife to make them feel like they're loved. Yeah. And um he can't tell you what's going on with the other wives because then he's going to lose their trust. So then he's in this island. He's on this island and all these women are around it trying to get on it, but they can't truly be on it with him because then they'll know too much about each other. So, there's no best friend. He's an island. None of them can truly be his best friend. And I think one of the weird things is I think all men kind of want someone that they're really close with that they connect with. I think so, too. They want a best friend. I think that's kind of what Naomi Jessup was for dad. And some of these men, they seem to never find it. And so they disconnect a little bit, it seems like. And so and and they that's what makes the women in their lives because they can't tend all these emotions. And so they're kind of like, well, I'm just going to be this dude and I'm just going to work. I'm going to keep a schedule and this is how we're doing it. But they don't I mean Rich never had a schedule. Sleeping around this schedule. You didn't have a schedule. It was like, I feel like this wife tonight. Well, I'm going to have that wife tonight. I want her for 10 nights. I'm going to have her for 10 nights. I mean, or or it was like, well, they're all mad at me for sleeping with her. I won't sleep with her for a few weeks and show them that I didn't favor her. Or, you know, I mean, it was more like that. But, or I'll sneak through her window. I mean, you know, it's just craziness all the way around. It's just so crazy. And there's just I I you can't truly get close. I know it. I've had other connections. I've had other relationships and it's just not the same as polygamy is just is so hurtful. You can't be I I think I I think I really honestly believe Richard loved me the most. I really do. Yeah. But at the same time, I still felt cheated on and and I didn't feel like I mean I think it got to a point where I knew I was at peace that I was his favorite. I did and I I was fine if I didn't get all his attention, but it was still that hurt and that pain that he's sleeping with other women or I'd be like I remember one time when he was like, "Rachel, come shower with me." And I knew he had slept with a different wife that night. I don't remember how I knew, but I was just I was really obvious to him. I was pregnant at the time. And he was very much about not having relationships with a pregnant wife because he was told to not to. And I just said, "You can't." I was in the shower and he's like, "What? What's wrong?" And I was like, "You can't think I don't know what you did last night." And he's like, "Rachel, I don't treat any of my wives as good as you. I don't shower with any of my wives, you know, just all this stuff." And I was like, "I know. I know. I just I still I still know what you did last night, you know?" Yeah. It's like you got to give it a day, dude. I I just felt creeped out. I don't know. I was like, "Are you dirty? I don't want to be by you." I don't know. No. It's just It's It's not easy. I think there's nothing natural about polygamy. There's not a man cannot take care of that many women and children truly unless he's super wealthy. And what we decide it's right because we're wealthy. I mean, seriously, it just it doesn't make sense. It hurts the kids. He can't have a relationship with that many kids. Yeah. One of the things about dad's family is it's one of the only polygamous families that has more women, more wives than children. Yeah. True. And like 30 more. So we had lots of servants. Those kids were very tender. Oh yeah. But like even dad's family before he it had more way more children than he did wives. Most of their life. Yeah. Yeah. Not most of mine. Yeah. Most of my life actually is any of my life. Yeah. Yeah. When you were born. Yeah. When I was born, he had four wives. Yeah. Children. Yeah. Okay. But definitely like it changed in like three years. Yeah. Cuz he got 10 in a year and then after that he got so many. He married all his father's family. Just boatload of mothers everywhere. Yes. But but then he didn't treat him like wives. Most of them were servants. The few special, really special ones had kids and then a few special that didn't have kids. But most of them were just you're the slave in the kitchen, you're the slave on the kids, you're the slave outside in the garden. I mean, that's all it was for them. I don't know why they're still faithful after all that. I think one thing that is important to note for everyone and I think the especially the people that still live there is everyone that was really close to Warren in general has left because they know how bad he is. Yeah. And one of the things he was big on is all the other prophets children's children have left. And that's what he was saying is like look at Brigham Young. Young's look at Joseph Smith's children. Look at all their children. They all left. None of the prophets. And he's like, I want my children to be different. And it's like, Dad, maybe they're all a little [ __ ] up. I know exactly. It's like, okay, maybe people knew exactly what they're doing. I'm sorry. Even the introduction of polygamy. I go read Lucy Walker's story. Why of all the women in this world did Lucy Walker get told you can't choose who you marry and if you don't marry me you'll be damned. She was underage. She had sent away her father on a mission. I mean it's a for her it's a testimony. She thinks it's a testimony but for me I read it and I see Warren Jeffs written all over it. 100%. I cannot see the difference between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs. I I can't either.

Well, I've got to ask you about this. Um, mother, you said that when mother got married, then this abuse that was happening to you kind of stopped for a while. Yeah. Because your mother was really special to Warren. I don't know why. I remember him even I was this little girl. I wasn't very old. I was 10 maybe. and he came and told me personally like he was so happy he was getting Mother Monica for a wife. It was weird like okay okay he's getting this new wife um and he was obsessed with her and he he was and and he left me alone and I was so happy he's obsessed with a wife. I remember that was the first wife that Mother Netmother Barbara really struggled with because it was the first wife they really felt like he loved past them, you know. So, she was really special to him. I think she always was for the most part. Um, I remember I think she got too much of his attention cuz I remember her getting sick of him and started telling him off and would get mad at him like I'd never seen any of his wives do. Like she would say rude things to him like she was pissed at him and stuff. Wow. And I had never seen any of his wives do that. And I remember thinking, "She's getting too much attention." I kind of felt like I knew how that felt. Wow. And so I thought, "She's sick of him. He's annoying." Yeah. But yes, I remember like when she was pregnant with you and Barbie and through all that time and she was just pissed at him. Um Yeah. But he always kept her with him for a long time. He was really into her. Yeah. He mindfucked a lot of people. And I just I don't know if she would like me to say this, but I think he over time I think he loved her ambitious spirit. If everybody in the crick knows somehow knows mother. It's like she was this she was just a really cheerful, happy, golucky, innocent. She was just really good person. Yeah. And and so of course he liked that about her. She was tiny. She was tiny. She was He probably liked that too. I mean, all kinds of creepy stuff, but he he he was obsessed with her and she was a really sweet person and and I wouldn't say she was like the most beautiful of all his wives, but she was so fun and happy and character wins every time, right? And she was cute. She was cute, especially Yeah. Especially when she was that young. Mhm. Yeah. She was really She was pretty. And I I don't know. I think Yeah, he was obsessed. And I what I noticed though is over the years, well in 2012 when he started punishing people, he just all these people that he was with when he was younger, he isolated and suffocated and mother was one of them. He isolated her and suffocated her and wouldn't talk to her and what like why all these I think it's some of the guilt and shame he felt about how he treated those people and he took it out on them. He didn't treat her good. I bet you he was sexually I'm certain he was sexually abusive to her by how she was treating him. I think she was done with it. So maybe that guilt is That's crazy. She hasn't ever told me that she was upset with them or maybe that guilt and shame he was putting it back on her cuz I think he did that to all of us that he hurt. I I very much believe that. I don't think she would maybe she doesn't even know how much he was abusive to her. I don't believe she actually could recognize it. She just thinks, "Oh, I was married to him. I had to let him do whatever the Lord told him to do." I mean, you know, but guarantee you he was sexually abusive. Yeah.

I wonder what do you think about some of dad's younger wives that were really in with those really in with the sexual stuff kind of but still to this day really defend that to me I think of someone like like that anyone that if they enjoyed it if they act I think the difference where you can separate the women that were a part of it that hated it and felt guilty and wanted to not be a part of it versus the ones that enjoyed it and promoted it and wanted to be a part of it. That's the separation. And any of them that loved it or wanted to be a part of it or or enjoyed it and obviously enjoyed touching the young girls and stuff, I think they're on a whole another level of evil. I do. And I think those ones are more supportive and faithful to Warren than the ones who hated it and the ones who knew it was wrong and didn't want to be a part of it. I think they're quicker to leave because something in their soul was telling them something was really messed up. Yeah, that's so insane. But for the underage girls that are still faithful, that's a whole different story because they're just messed up. Yeah, that's one of the things I was going to ask you about is you have people like uh just Mother Maryanne and those girls that are so very faithful to this day and you know she's I don't know if she was involved in the court trial but you know there's pictures online and stuff and she's one of the more talked about ones and she's mother's sister Um, why is she so faithful? Because she was that he took advantage of a very innocent mind and convinced her that she loved him. You know, she's very conditioned. She's very mind [ __ ] I don't know how to say. No, she's just very conditioned. So, she's conditioned to believe she loves him. He was the first one to take advantage of her. I mean, she knows no nothing else. And so she thinks she loves him. She believes that it's love and that he loved her. He told her he loved her. She thinks he did love her. He didn't love anybody but himself. Why would he hurt a child except for he only loves himself?

Well, what did you think in 2007 when War and Jeff said, "I'm not the prophet." Did you hear those messages? I didn't hear those. They didn't tell us. Most of us people like I wasn't in the family and stuff. I did hear it when I came to visit at father's house and the family told me and I just remember thinking he's not the prophet. I mean, you know, just think he's bad, but I couldn't tell anyone. I didn't feel like I could tell anyone. What I didn't believe was that Willie Jessup was the prophet because I'm like, how can someone that's not the prophet say who is the prophet? I mean, you know, I remember thinking he's [ __ ] up, too. I mean, you know, I'm just like, it's all messed up. But I I I I didn't feel like I could tell the family what father did. I just I didn't feel like it. I didn't ever feel like I could tell anyone what Faulner did until Becky was the first one I told because were you struggling with the whole religion still right and just unsure if this is right. I think the reason I told Richard, which was the first person I told, was because I felt like he needed to understand me and I didn't feel like he we could truly be close if he didn't know. And I wanted to be close to him. Yeah. And that makes sense. Like you got married to him and Yeah. And then with the reason I told Becky, cuz I wasn't going to tell anyone else. Um cuz I just felt like no one would believe me anyway. Um the reason I told Becky is because father kept telling her she was a terrible mother. And so she broke down. And I was very angry at him for tearing her down and making her break down. And so I told her, "I don't you got to quit thinking you're a bad person because father's done way worse things than you and he's still considered a good father." And she's like, "What do you mean, Rachel?" And so I told her and then she's like, "You should have apostatized, you know, all this stuff." And that's her first response. And you've got to tell Isaac. And she literally dialed Isaac's number and forced me to tell Isaac. I told Isaac. Isaac was very like shocked. And then he asked father. And then father sent me a message not through Isaac, through mother Aura. Oh. And said, "If you tell anyone, you will be accountable to me and the Lord. Every person you tell, and you will be punished basically." you I he made me not be a member and everything because he found out I told Becky. He didn't know I told Becky. Becky didn't tell him. Isaac told him that I told him. Excellent. And so then he didn't let he didn't give that message through Isaac. He gave it to Mother Orura because in the message it said you can tell no one about your relationship with me when you were younger. It said that in the relationship in this message. So I knew Mother Orura knew. And then Oh, I wonder what to think about her. Yeah. And so then I was like, "Okay." So then I was scared to tell anyone because I didn't want him to take my kids away again because he had already taken my kids away. And then he still did after that. But yeah, so um I was just mostly scared that he's going to take my kids away. But it really really wasn't up until Norah told me cuz all this time I'm like well there just must have been something bad about me that made him do it because if he really is the prophet and I'm trying so hard to believe because if I don't then I'll lose everything, my family, everything. Um but then when Norah told me that he did it to her. That's just all I needed. I needed to know that he had done it to one other person because as a child you can't place it. So when he realized it's his issue, he's done it to multiple people. Obviously, I knew he had done it to the 12-year-old girls. Yeah. So that kind of But then he had the justification that he was married to him, right? So then it still messes with your head. Yeah.

I have to say that all through growing up, us boys looked at you older girls and were like, "Something is wrong." Because those guys can do whatever they want. Yes. And not get corrected. If we did anything like that, if Levi did, if any of the boys did, they would be gone in a heartbeat. You guys could do anything you wanted. You were always getting the father treated us more special than the mothers. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. He treated us and the mothers were jealous of us because he treated his daughters more special than his wives. and you know his girl classes and spent so much time. I mean he took us to Red Lobster once a week every single week and the boys nothing, the wives nothing. It was just the girls and it was it was weird. It was weird cuz he didn't treat his boys special at all. And he treated his girls way too special that the mothers were jealous. I remember Shannon coming to me and she's like, "Rachel, how is it to be treat loved like a wife and to be treated like a wife? How is it how is it to have everybody jealous of you?" And I looked tender. I looked at her and I says, "I do not think of father the way I don't love him like you do. I don't care for him like that." Uh, did did dad love her a lot when she got married? When she got married, yeah, she was special for a minute. Yeah. Not as long as your mom though. Yeah. So, my mom was kind of special. And then after that, Mother Shannon. Mother Shannon. And Vicki. Cuz Vicki got married after Shannon. That's why Shannon wasn't very long. Okay. And then Millie. Uh Millie. Mhm. And then she was pretty special. And then with a but she was weird cuz she was older and she was uh Grant or was she older? But when when he had Aura then she was the most special at the time. And then Patricia and then Naomi. I mean that's just pretty much how it went. And then then they all switched off and on sometimes. Yeah. And then Vita as well. Well, all the little girls to a degree as they got married. It's so insane to me because I just I have never seen those guys as little girls cuz I was so tiny. I know. So crazy. They're so much younger than me. I was just like, I know exactly what you're doing to them. I was so mad at father. It was just bad dude. I remember Mother Kate telling us she taught school down there at R17 and she was telling us she was special too. She was telling us that Maryanne and her sister, I forgot her name, were going to get married to Father. Ida? No, they were She never did. Oh, she she'd looked just like kind of like Maryanne, but they were always together in school and stuff. Not Betty. No, but she was telling us before they had ever got married that they were going to get married to dad. And that was interesting. Looking back on it, it's like what? You know, she's probably jealous. Oh, okay. Um, well, so much bad. It really is. And so much I can't believe I don't know. It's just shocking to look at it now and believe how many people he hurt. I cannot believe we couldn't see more because he was so sneaky and he lied so much and he hid so much of what he was doing. I think really because how how did I not know that he was sexually abusing all my sisters when I was right there? He hid it so good. Only that one night that I woke up and he was undressing Melanie and I couldn't quite tell. It was so dark. So then I thought, does he think that's me? you know, because he had done it to me so much that I was just like, is, you know, I was so confused. But then, so I got up and went to the bathroom because I wanted to know I could see him so he wouldn't do it. And then he left. I didn't, that was the most I had I wondered if he had done it to anyone else.

Do you think like it seems like he had the ability to really love people to some degree too, which is kind of wild to think about, but I I will agree with that because I did feel a lot of love from him. And I'm not talking about sexually. Yeah. When he was in his sexual abuse mode, it wasn't a love mode. It was him him about himself. But there were times and he would go months and day years even without doing stuff to us. But he really acted like he loved me and and I felt I feel like he really loved me. Jaden, I really do feel like he loved me. And even through my years in polygamy and some of the hardships I went through with some of my sister wives, he looked out for me in that time. And so I'm not saying while he's a very terrible person, he still showed at least the ones he loved some love. He also was so rude to some of the other ones. Think of like our brother Roy. He was so rude to him. He never showed love to him. So he could hate as much as he could love. No, it's so insane. He is such a complicated person in that sense because that's another thing that mother would tell me. And it's like, no, he really loved me. I was like, I know. I think he had his times where he loved her, but I think at another time he didn't. In the end, you look at the whole picture, he loved himself the most. Yeah. Maybe he showed love to some of us, but he loved himself the most. And that's where he's so evil because if everyone else was in danger and him, he's going to drop all of us and protect himself. Mhm. We can all go down in the volcano. He's going to save himself.

We kind of Well, kind of have. You know, it it's hard on people's mental state. It's really hard. Well, I wanted to ask now about 2012 time 2010 to 2012 and 13. Those times when he made everybody live by themselves. Yeah. They were just insane. But that's where we all came, especially us that were getting treated really bad. That's where I was like, I'm going to leave. I mean, God, thank God we went through that. I, as much as I hated it, it gave me enough re time to reason with myself why I should leave. And him separating me from my kids, I was like, my kids shouldn't have to go through this. I just But no, that was terrible time. I agree. But why was it that he started sending so many people away in 2011? It was right after he got sentenced in Texas and he realized he wasn't getting out. So, he was angry. So, he took his anger out on punishing people the way he was getting punished. Suddenly, they had to go live alone, but he made it worse. While he had TV and could write and get phone calls and all that, we didn't. We had to live in solitary confinement basically with no TV and no writing and no phone. I mean, nothing. He He made us be in a harder solitary confinement than him. I mean, obviously, we can go jump over the wall or something, but if we were obeying and doing what he said, we were in a miserable state more than him. I remember while I was living alone, in solitary confinement, whatever, I felt like I'm in a deeper prison than father. That is a good way to put it because I think a lot of people there they really felt like they were going insane. But that's because I feel like he was punishing us because that's what he was going through. And then the when he took away sex, well, he wasn't getting sex, so then nobody else can have it, you know? I mean, it was just kind of like

Okay, I got to ask you about this. Uh there's this story about the mothers taking this video of Dan doing like sexual things and then taking it like somehow showing it to him in prison. Yes. Yes. That is a true story. That is so when I heard that I was just I know it because I know it came I know I've heard it from the very people that were part of it. So yes, I felt so mind [ __ ] when I heard that story like Oh, I've been getting lectured about not getting masturbating for so long. And you're going to figure out how to get a video in prison. Yeah. And he's sitting there punishing you guys if you woke up with a heart on. Yeah. It's so insane.

Well, 2012 days. I call them 2012 days because they were just times of isolation all the way up to 2016. Sorry, I'm just answering this really quick. Yeah, you're good. Kind of what was your personal experience in these 2012 days where you were being isolated because I know I even I was isolated some, but I know mother was isolated seriously. Yeah. for me. Obviously, you know, he first was kept accusing me and Richard that we had sex when we were pregnant because I had several miscarriages. Why was he so into everything about sex? But everybody, everyone that I know of in the FLDS was having sex when they were pregnant. It's not a big deal. It's not going to hurt the baby. But, um, me and Rich, Richard didn't, Richard was too obedient. I'm telling you, he was too obedient. He did not have sex with us when we were pregnant. So for me it was like we didn't. And every time we told father we didn't, he said we are lying and he would tell us that we covenanted to lie about it and everything cuz everybody else was like yeah we did. I mean everybody else did and I was like pregnant women are super horny. Yes, we wanted I wanted sex when I was pregnant. Richard, what's wrong with you? I mean yes seriously. That could be the best sex of your life. No. Um but but you know for us it was like trying to tell father no we're not we didn't and so father was like tell us we're lying and wouldn't believe that we didn't because that makes him look really bad right I mean he he had done terrible things but no I think for so father wouldn't believe us um for me it it I know for Richard like it made him just start feeling like well I'll just admit that I did whatever he told me cuz God tells him the truth for me. I'm like hell no. I'm like I wrote to father and I like cuz when Richard's like you covenant when father said to me you covenanted with Richard that you wouldn't tell oh and then he had told me to confess that Richard was sexually abusive to me. Oh and I said to him I wrote back to him and says I will never say that Richard was sexually abusive to me. I'll never say that we had sex when I were pregnant because God would know that I was lying and I care what God thinks and I'm not going to lie. And I was just like, I'm not going to admit to something that didn't happen because I care what God thinks more than you. And after that, he started um hinting like that would never be through Richard again or that this was right. And during that time is when Norah called me and told me what father did to her. And so this is pretty much my brain was turning like oh I'm not going to stay here. He's the bad person. I will never I mean the night Norah told me that father did it to her. I said I'm we're leaving. We're not staying here. We are never trusting I mean all I can think of is he had hinted that my girls belong to him and stuff like that. I already knew I was planning on leaving before Ember left hit 12 cuz I was never going to trust him with my girls.

So was that the moment that you decided you were going to leave? is when Nora called me that night, we talked all night and I said to her, "We will leave." I says, "We will not stay here." I like, "Father is a bad person. We will never trust him with our children." And she agreed. Yes, we'll leave. We don't have to stay here. He's a bad person. I was like, "Look, he touched us. He got these underage girls. I mean, there's something wrong with him. We don't have to stay here." And he had and both of us were getting punished because we had talked. Well, she had written to father about, well, I don't understand why you touched me when I was little or why you made me touch you. And so that's why she was living alone. He was making me live alone because I had told other people, Becky and Isaac, but I don't think he knew I'd told Becky. So that's why I was living alone. And so, you know, we realized we were getting punished because he didn't want us to tell anyone. Yeah.

I feel like when you guys left was kind of the a little bit of a shift from when he went from separating his family and isolating them to just sending people away. And he got angry and he realized his story was going to get out and he started accusing us of terrible immoralities because he didn't want anyone to believe what we said. when you guys left. That was a It's one of those moments in

Life in my mind. It was like a huge tidal wave for the whole FLDS. It was, it was like one of those things that you didn't know could happen, and then they happened. Like what? I know. It's so somber and just. But see, if Warren had never sexually abused us, we would have never. If we truly believed he was a good person, we would have never. But we knew he wasn't. And it took us leaving and telling the truth and having each of the siblings that have left slowly try to hear our story and get an idea that something's messed up. So they want to know the truth. Why would Rachel and Becky and Nora leave? You know, all that. And once you hear that truth, I don't care if it takes you 10 years to believe it. Once you hear that truth, it eats on you until you leave. Yeah. That's why when I texted the message to Levi A and Melanie, Marian, Sandra, Teresa, I think anyway, there was in like 2017, and I texted and said, "Father sexually abused us." That's the first thing I said, 'cause I thought, if nothing else, they have to hear that truth. Uh-huh. Some of them have left. Yeah.

Oh, those days were insane. I remember when you guys left. It was just so unbelievable. I could not possibly comprehend that, like, and that we wouldn't come back, and that Father was trying so hard to make us come back. Well, I wanted to ask about Roy, because he, he was, uh, he was out first. He was out first, but he never really was a part of the family. No. No. But Father was just, I remember as a little child, Father treated Roy so bad. I remember a two-year-old walking around with his blanket, and Father would be so mean to him. He's always spanking him, always punishing him for nothing, and just thinking, why does Father hate Roy so much? Why? I was so confused. And that was the first time I thought, I'm so glad I'm Mother Barbara's child, because he hates Roy so much, and he treated Mother Gloria bad, too. He, it seemed like all her life he treated her bad. And so I was just so confused why he was so mean to him. And really, he was always mean to him. I give Roy so much room because Father was so mean to him. And I, and you know, because Father was mean to him, the family was mean to him. Oh, yeah. Because how Father treated the family, how he treated someone, the whole family did. I know, because when I was 12 and 13, and my body was changing, and Father would treat me bad, the whole family would treat me bad. And or, or if I didn't please him sexually, then he would treat me bad, and the whole family would treat me bad. I didn't care if he treated me bad. I cared that the family treated me bad, because they didn't know why they were treating me bad, and that's what hurt, because I loved my family so much, and it would make me do stuff that I didn't want to do for Father, because I wanted the family to treat me good. Yeah.

Wow. So you guys decide to leave. It's a total, like, shock wave in Dad's family, for sure. And from then on, people have slowly left and left. People have slowly left, but also Dad just got upset and started being like, "You guys are doing this bad thing, and you guys are doing this bad thing, and get out of here." I know. And even like, said, like, at first it was like me and Becky and Norah did all these terrible things, and then all of a sudden, after a few years, he couldn't handle the thought that we left. So then instead, he flips it into an imaginary world that Rachel and Becky and Norah are up in heaven and on this special mission, because he couldn't handle the thought that we had left. Mhm. Do you think that he's just kind of gone insane and actually somewhat believes that? I, when I, because I've read actually read some of the stuff, and I, I see that. I believe he knows he's not, it's not true. Okay. But he does that for himself to feel good about himself. And again, I don't think at all that he believes it. I, because there's moments in what he says that, you know, he knows exactly what he's talking about. I think he just keeps himself in an imaginary world for his own happy, whatever little bit of happiness he thinks he can have, 'cause I think it's hard for him to accept that his kids turn against him because he hurt us. That's an insane realization, because one of the things I've been struggling with all this time is like, I think if he is so, if he is insane at all, I think his guilt has driven him there. Yeah. I don't think, I think he is smart, and I think he's evil as can, I think he's all evil, just as evil as can be. I think more than anything, his, his guilt and living alone with his guilt only himself and his guilt for so long has driven him that way. Yeah. I don't think if he was in that situation that he'd necessarily be insane. I think he's that way because of his guilt and what he's done. Guilt can drive people to some pretty crazy places. Yeah.

Well, it's been really hard for me to accept that all this time he might have just been this mastermind doing all this stuff. And the more I learn, the more I'm just like, maybe, maybe. I think he was probably since as a child, because he started had that feeling that he was special and he could get away with stuff. I think that he perfected the attribute of, um, aspiring. I think he perfected that and manipulation, and I think he just got better and better at it, especially with his father, and used it to his advantage. And why not? I mean, he got what he wanted, I guess. And he had a bad habit. He didn't, he wasn't a good person. He forced us to be. I don't know why. I don't know. It's very confusing. But I am grateful that he didn't let us do the terrible things he was doing. I mean, while he did it to us, he didn't allow us, and it, and it made us have to be good people. And I am grateful for that. I also am grateful for how he brought us together in singing and programs and fun stuff. It wasn't all bad. And I think that's so important for people to realize. We are capable of love. We are capable of a really good time. We are capable of really probably some of the happiest, funnest times ever, because we had to survive a lot of [ __ ] and still we learned through, I mean, especially the older ones, we had programs, we had singing, we had, we always sang together, we did all kinds of fun things. And I feel so sorry for the younger siblings, they didn't have that, so they don't have a lot of good memories that we have. We have good memories we can relate to. I think I give the younger siblings so much more room because their life was pretty bad. Yeah. We don't know how to act at a party. Very awkward now. I probably do now, but some of those younger ones. Yeah. No, I know. And especially some of the brothers. I think it's hard for them to communicate well with other people because Father put the boys down so much and made them feel like they weren't worth a lot. You know, he really did. He did. He made the boys feel like they weren't worth much, and the girls were way more special, and so the girls felt more special, and the girls are a little better at just feeling special with, because they think they are, or whatever. I don't know. The boys feel like they have to try hard, and I think that hurt them. But I also think maybe it can be their, but a blessing too, because then they'll try harder. Yeah.

Well, what are your thoughts on the family that's still there that that says and believes, no, didn't abuse anybody? They have all this evidence. So many of his children. I would say you're kind of the key person in all this, but so many people have said this has gone wrong. Well, so many of the, I mean, at least four of us girls have told, me and the sisters have said, "Father sexually abused us." Um, so that's four girls right there. I mean, his sisters have come out about it. Uh, his, obviously, everyone knows he married 12-year-old girls. I mean, it's so obvious. There's so much proof. So it is really hard to look at people and say, really? I feel like more, I don't feel like so much that people don't believe us now. I feel like they're justifying him. Well, he was tested to be more than any other man in the world, or God has forgiven him because he's been in prison, or, you know, all this stuff. And I'm like, put it in another perspective. If you believe that he could be a god, do you actually believe that your God right now sexually abused little children when God said it would be better for them to be thrown in the depths of the ocean with a millstone tied about their neck? I would never believe in God if I thought he had sexually abused children, you know. And so they think Father could become a god, or is a god to them, and he could do this because he was tested more than anyone else. That's pretty messed up. Yeah, it is. And I've heard some insane justifications talking to people that are still in. I've heard some insane justifications, and it makes me a little bit mad, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Me, too. Because I'm like, let's think about the children in this situation, and then tell me that it's okay. No, he messed up. I believe he did it to our sister Shirley. I, she would not be that messed up, and we don't have to put it on there. But look, he took her life away. He took her life away. She'll never have kids because of whatever he did to her. He kept her in his room for hours. Oh, she's still there, isn't she? Motherette told me he kept her in his room for his office for hours. He would tend her for hours when she was a baby. Really? For hours. She said he was the only baby he did that to. She has always been a little bit different. She wouldn't let her husband get close to her. She was scared of two-year-old boys coming in by her door. She's messed up. And she would only be be messed up like that because she experienced something at a very young age. Yeah. Mhm.

That's a crazy realization, because all my life I just kind of thought, "Oh, she's so weird." Yeah. Everybody just thought she's weird. But what did she go through to become weird? Is the saddest thing ever. And the fact that it would have been when she was very young, because that's when Mother, I remember Mother saying to me when I was 13, I was 13, and she says, "Father used to love Shirley because he was mad. She was, she was just an angry person, and they hate, he, he was always really hard on her, and she hated him for some reason. She hated him." And Melinette was just in the kitchen once, she's like, "Father used to keep Shirley and tend Shirley for hours when she was a baby, and he loved Shirley the most." And all I thought, I was 13 years old, and all I thought was, what did he do to her when she was a baby? 'Cause everything he did to me was in his office. Why did he have a baby girl in his office for hours without her mother? Something definitely happened to her. You can tell, just like living with her for a while, you can tell. No, I know. No, she's freaked out over any male human ever. A baby. She won't touch a baby boy. So, no, there's a messed up situation there. And I, I feel really sorry for her. And I just, that's just as a child, I thought that about Father. And I, I, I won't, I won't ever believe otherwise. Yeah. Whether she remembers it or not. Uh-huh. It's, I don't think he's exempt from anything as far as sexual abuse goes. Yeah.

I've talked to some of Dad's wives, some of his younger wives, and a lot of them about these very things in just in private conversations saying, "How is this justified?" And I've heard a lot of different justifications, but one of the main ones I hear is that Warren Jeffs, no matter what he did, he has suffered for what he's done now. And now, and God has taken him through. If he did do something wrong, he's suffered. And now he's in a position to be, you know, the prophet. And I just want to say, are you God to make that measurement? I mean, seriously, we have seen people suffer. Think of the Holocaust, suffer so much. And are we the judge of who has suffered enough? Those people didn't even do anything, and they suffered more than Warren has suffered, right? So somehow he's worthy now. I mean, I just think that's a terrible comp, a terrible excuse. Yeah. Yeah. I heard one mother. I, there was two mothers talking, and one, one of them wasn't our family. But one says to the other, "Would you justify or Jeff's abusing your daughter?" And they just flipped out. But in the end, then they were kind of like, you know, I can't judge the prophet. And it's kind of like, we've gotten to a point as FLDS people where that you had to have a prophet. To me, it's like, we don't have to have anyone to connect us to God. What is wrong with everybody? We got to where we are worshiping a man, not God. Now, let's get rid of that man because we weren't actually worshiping God. We were worshiping a man. And then we can start thinking straight, like no man is perfect. Every man is capable of sin, and by God, a prophet, pastor, teacher, whatever, is super capable of it, because he has a power position of power.

Um, what do you think about the future of the FLDS? Just, do you think Helaman's going to try to make something out of the FLDS, or do you think he's kind of just going to let things go? I don't think he's going to let him go, because that's his money source. I think right now, with Father's family, they love that position of authority, um, power, feeling like they're special. And then next to that, they love the money. They need the money to stay, to keep doing what they're doing. They need the money. So, what, what I saw when I saw a shift in Helaman and his efforts was when they were afraid they're going to lose the money. Suddenly he's standing up and, "No, don't go do these, these, don't go on your own and think on your own." What I don't know is if they're planning ahead, because who is Helaman's kids going to marry each other? Yeah, it's a little messed up. I don't think they're planning ahead. Um, I, I think at the same time, if Father died, Helaman would step in and take over. I do. And do his own thing. Maybe not as harshly as Father, because I don't believe his was evil at all. I don't think he's, I don't want to even say he's evil, but I think as long as you do what Father does, you become evil. Uh-huh.

I sometimes have these like angry moments where I feel like exposing everybody that still supports CFLDS. Like, you're still paying your tithing. What is, you support pedophiles? Like, what is your problem? And then I have other moments where I'm like, wait, I kind of feel sorry for everybody. What do you think is the right balance for like men, men that steal, for example, somebody like Paul Bigley that own, you know, he, he runs Phase Concrete, this, you know, they do over 40, 50, 70 million a year, whatever, and they're sending enormous amounts of tithing and stuff. Are those kind of people directly responsible? Because these aren't ignorant men. There, he, he runs a business. He knows, he, he has the ability to know everything about Warren and Jeffs. Like, is he supporting pedophilia? I wonder. I, I mean, this is my perspective. I think they honestly believe they're doing the right thing. I do. I think he does. And I think he thinks they've been blessed because they've done it. And he thinks that's the way to keep being blessed financially is by supporting the FLDS leaders. I would totally agree. I, and I don't, I think if they actually sat down and had a conversation with me and you, and we said, "This is how it is," they might come to their senses. I, I do. Or, or at least it'd get in their head long enough. I don't think they've allowed themselves to listen to us. I think they have the capacity and the capabilities to, I don't know about the capacity, but they have the capability to. Um, but I don't think they have. I don't think they've let themselves go there. And I think they're super faithful. And yeah, they think that, I, I think they're true believers. Yeah. I, I think if they actually had one of us tell them the truth, it might start getting in their head. I don't know. Yeah. But I think money in a way runs them too. And they think that's why they've been blessed. Also, if they don't stay loyal to the FLDS, they don't have all those workers. I know. So, in a way, it's like they would not be that successful if they didn't keep faithful. So it's the whole system that keeps them so, so rich. Yeah. So maybe that plays into it too. I mean, I think like BZI, I don't know if the owner of BZI does he believe still? They, BZI as a company will not give money to the FLDS. Oh, good. But they're just, they still use the system, but they, yeah. So, I think Helaman asked them for money, and they said, "If you want money, you just have to go right to our workers, and they can pay their tithing, but we're not going to." Good. Good. Good for them. But Phase and some of the, some other framing companies and some other bigger companies that have kind of been growing. I think companies like BZI and Phase and all of them could still be successful, could still do the same thing, especially if they believed and left. BZI is probably more successful because, because they've chosen to believe, they've chosen to do that. Yeah. Because they've realized the mistake of the, they're really kind of have left. Yeah. But Phase is probably the biggest, like, most loyal. You can't work for Phase and. Well, that is what I think BZI went, started finding out the truth is that they actually let people work for them, even though they were questioned, questionable, like people would say, "Oh, they're not being faithful." BZI didn't care. They were still just going to let him work for him. They weren't going to fire them on conditions of faithfulness or not. And I think they've been blessed for that because they were kind.

How do you think we should look at Helaman in the sense that like, me, I'm truly afraid, like genuinely afraid that if I had been like, say those guys had been kinder to me, that you would still be faithful, that I would still be faithful, and then if they told me, "You should marry this girl," I think I would do it. I know. That's what's scary, isn't it? I know. That's where you're blessed if you're treated bad, you feel blessed that you were treated bad, because then you got woken up, right? I think, but I also, I always come down to everyone has a different degree of independence, and some of us that were more independent thinking were rebellious enough that we got treated bad so that we would find the truth. And I think we are blessed for that. Those people who can't show any independence at all, and who are totally dependent on other people and the belief system and all that, they're the last ones to see it and the last ones to find the truth because they're such obedient people. I mean, it's just ridiculous. I know. I have to say, you have to question stuff. Everybody there right now is, it's like, you guys, they know everything. They've watched my podcast. They, they watch everything about the FLDS. They know everything. It's like, well, and that's most of them are afraid of losing their support system, their comfort zone. They can't face the world for how it is. I mean, really, most of them that are there, you think about their nature, and you're like, "Yeah, you might not succeed out in the world." It's pretty tough out here. Uh-huh. It is pretty tough. You have to be really brave to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I know all the boys, he and all the boys, they watch everything. I know they do. Oh, I know they do, too. I, they've been reading my stuff for years. I mean, that was all there was to talk about was what is Rachel posting now? Or what is Rachel writing about? Yeah.

But it, it was so insane to me how much more, how much different your book hit me listening to it recently rather than before. It's like, before I just, I read it like a, "Oh, all that stuff happened next," kind of a thing. Yeah. I think also our, we heal. It takes years to heal. And I, I think about when I first left versus now. Oh my gosh, my mind's in a whole different place. And I thought I was smart, and I thought I knew, and I knew stuff, but I, oh my gosh, I, I was miles from what I know now. And the healing, like, just, oh my gosh, it's just shocking the difference. And it is. It takes time to heal and to come to that realization. And so, yes, to read or hear my book right after you leave versus years later, you're like, "Oh my gosh, that was so terrible." Versus when you first hear, "Oh, yeah, you were barely living all that terrible stuff, so it didn't seem that bad." You know? Yeah. Or I saw that, or I experienced that. Well, I lived through it. I mean, then you hear it again, and you go back even in your mind to think about it, you're like, "Did I live that way? Oh my gosh, what was wrong with me? How did I stay faithful that longer? How did I put up with it that long?" But that's 'cause that's all we knew. That's all we knew. And now that we know different, it's like, what's some crazy people. Yeah. I was kind of like, like, I cannot believe how crazy this is, kind of a thing. It was. And I didn't even, I mean, some of Father's family now have gone through way more mind games and, Oh yeah. Than I even did, or listening to his visits, or all that. And I even for people to write about it, no one can understand it, or it's too bad now. But for us, it's like, God, I'm glad I got out before then, because that's even worse. I, I still think though, since we have left, there's enough knowledge people could leave. They really could. And it's so much scarier when you're the first ones versus, you know, you have people to go to or people that will love you now. Okay. But I, thinking about this a little bit more, I actually don't know that I would have just put up with everything there, because when I was still pretty faithful, then I heard about M getting a message about some terrible things she'd done and like cutting some people up and stuff. Yeah. And I was so mad. Okay. I don't think you would have either, because I know I wouldn't have. I know if I would have been in a position next to Father, well, I was way too rebellious in the first place. I always was. I would have never put up. I would have told Father off. I actually would have, I would have lied to everybody and said Father's sick. I would have told him the truth that Father was sick, or I would have said Father's bad. If I would have been in a position of authority, I would have told everybody the truth. Yeah. I would have said he said he's bad, and he is, because what he, you know, I would, I know I would have not let everyone get treated like that. Yeah. So I don't think all of us would make. When people say, "Oh, if you were in a position of authority, you would have done the same thing." I always say, "By hell, I wouldn't," which is why I was never in a position of authority or close, because I was too rebellious. I would never fall for what Father said. He knows it too, and that's why he kept me separate. Yeah.

And another thing is, after everything happened with those girls that were literally Father's scribes, and then they left, everybody knew about that. Like, you have to at this point, I just don't really think, I think you're super delusional if you're still there, or you're just love to be coddled. Yeah. Or you cannot face the world. I mean, some of those siblings have gone out a little bit in the world and had to take care of themselves, and they hated it. So they're like, "We'd prefer to just be taken care of." I mean, it's just a tough life, and it's like, "Yeah, it is." But gosh, it sure is rewarding if you just go out and work for yourself and figure it out. I mean, I think they're so miserable because they have to follow these certain standards if they want that lifestyle, and it's a really sad lifestyle. And gosh, they don't get love or family or anything. There's also a big group of the FLDS that won't face the truth. They're like, "We're loyal. We love Warren Jeffs. We don't want to hear anything about him. We don't want to, don't tell." But they won't really do what he says now. Oh, most of them won't. Yeah. It's so insane. And they think I'm this crazy guy because I'm talking against, you know. Yeah. And so they won't really talk to me either, but they won't do what he says. But it's like, what? Well, they think if, as long as I don't talk against the prophet, I'm okay. Exactly. I'm like, the first thing you need to do is talk against the prophet that isn't a prophet. So we, everybody knows that maybe you have some normalcy to you, because the second you come out here and you're living as a hypocrite, no one's going to like you. I hate, I think that I dislike them more when they don't do what they say they believe, and yet they won't talk against it. I mean, you know, I think that's pretty messed up. Yeah.

There's something I forgot to ask you about, and it's Rich told me this story that when you guys, he, you guys as a family, I think you were at 23, you were supposed to be getting rid of some archives or something, and there was a bunch of archives that you didn't want to get rid of, and he, he specifically told me the story about you. Okay. But he said that you didn't want to get rid of them, and he took them all out, and he put them in this thing, put gas on them, and lit them on fire. And he, after you had left, he was telling me like, "I'm so glad I did, because that's, um, we were having an, I wanted some pictures of all of us from him, and he, he's saying he was saying, 'We're just going to delete them all.'" Anyway, he told me this story about you because to his point, like, one of us are going to probably leave, and then, and then you'll have the pictures. Yeah. Actually, I don't, I can't think of it. I can think of when we were supposed to burn music and toys, and I didn't want him to, of the kids, and from the kids, and he still did. So that, I mean, there was like that. But as far as all the pictures, if whether he believes or not, I have every single picture still. Wow. Every picture. And when we were supposed to delete pictures of family members and cut them out and everything, I never would. And I still have every picture. So whatever he's talking about, I have every single picture of our family. Every one of them. I see. All of them on DVDs, everything. I still have all that. So that's funny that he thinks that I don't have it. I still have it. I also have every bit of everything. I've, I'm, I've always been keep everything. So, yeah, I still have it. Whatever he burned was music. Uh-huh. Gentile music. So insane. I just, I hope every, but I hope everybody does something reasonable.

Should I tell you something funny about when I left? Yeah. Um, because Uncle Al was going to have me move up to the property, right? And I hadn't quite decided if I was leaving that night, but he had parked a trailer by my house. Well, I was pretty sure, but I wasn't that certain. And because the heaviest thing of all my stuff was my good books. So I packed up all the books and put them in the trailer. And I forgot that I put all my good books in the trailer. That was all that was in the trailer was like the sermon books, grandfather's, Uncle Royy's, all that stuff. So then when I left, I had everything else but my good books. And so I thought afterwards, I was like, probably everybody thinks, "Oh, Rachel was such a terrible person, she left all her good books." And just let you know, I don't know, you know, it's just, it could look really bad, and I just thought all the surmising and all the gossip and everything, that's what it would have been, but it was actually an accident. I didn't mean to lose all the, leave all those books. I don't care now, and I actually would have nothing to do with them, but at the time, it was not on purpose.

Um, yeah, so when you left, uh, Nora had left from R23. I remember that. And I knew, and I was in contact with her the whole time. Like, I had told her to call our relatives and everything. Um, and then when Isaac calls me and told me Nora left, I made myself cry and pretend like I didn't really, because I didn't want him to know that I knew. Oh, wow. And then you, and then you decide to leave because you're told that you have to move with Lyall. Yeah. See, I, I, the reason I didn't leave is soon. I wanted to talk to Richard. I wanted to convince him. I kept hoping that I'd get to talk to him or be with him or something. Then when Father started telling me that to prepare to move with his family, I was like, "I will not move with his family." I knew I would not survive. His family is awful in general. Just the no warrants. Oh, Warren. He kept telling me to prepare to live with his own family. Oh, I see. And I was like, there's so many tattletails. And I knew they'd tell on my children because they weren't perfect. And well, they were just fun and happy like Maja, and I didn't want them to tattle on her and have her get separated from me. So I was like, I, I'll for sure leave before that happens. And then when I got the message, "You have to move up to Lyall's tonight," when Lyall told me that, and I was just like, "Yep, I'm out of here." So I still tried really hard to get Isaac to have Richard call me. But I remember that because I was with Rich. But yeah, Richard wouldn't. Too bad for him now. He's still miserable. It's okay. I, I did decide after I left. I thought, you know, it's probably better I don't have Rich in my life for my kids' sake, because then he would have other women and children and to have to worry about, and I just didn't want to deal with the polygamy side of things. So, yeah.

What do you think about Uncle Isaac and Uncle Nephi and Uncle Lyle? I think they're living what they sowed. I mean, I think they're reaping what they sowed in a way, but I, I don't, I, I will always hope the best for them. I hope that their families will come around, and that they, did you hear about some of the stuff that happened with Lyall's family? I, I've heard some. I don't really know where. Like, I think his wife and son. Yes, I did hear about. Yeah. All messed up. Yeah. Can you imagine that? Yeah. I think I think several wives and son, yeah, have done that since. It's crazy. They're real [ __ ] aren't they? Yeah. Well, I think Uncle Isaac just feels, uh, I kind of feel bad for him, but he feels really, uh, lonely because his f, you know, he doesn't have his family, and he's hurt so many people. And like, he was so mean to our sister Becky when she was going through her experiences. He was so mean. And he would get up and publicly in front of the family and all the people on the property and make fun of her and her boys when they were right there and just laugh. And he, he was so rude that I just feel like we, I think karma comes around. We get what we do. That's fair. I think they're kind of in. You get what you are. Yeah. They're kind of in a bad. They're all kind of in a bad situation right now. They are. But they're going to have to show a lot of love to someone to get better, because it's not very good for them. Yeah.

Well, what would you say to everybody that you take from your whole experience? What's the most important thing you think you've learned through all of this? I think the mo, one of the most important things, there's so many lessons, but I think one of the most important things to me is never look at your life and think, "Oh, I'm so picked on. Life's so terrible. Why would God make me go through all this terrible things? He must not really, there must not really be a God because he's made me suffer this much, or makes other people suffer this much." No. No, that's not true. You use all those experiences. If you take those experiences and use them right, you will become wise. You will become happy. You can become a such a better person. And if you sit at home and have no challenges and have no hard experience, you're going to suck. No one's going to like you. You'll be an it. I mean, it is experience that makes us become grow character and become a better person. And I think never feel sorry for your experiences. I think everybody needs to take those experiences, be grateful for them, and learn from them. And that's the most important thing. And yes, there's trauma, childhood trauma, all that. Don't dwell on the trauma. Dwell on the good and the happy, and you will heal. I think you just, you just can't feel sorry for yourself. I think it's important. Yes, I talk about it. I do bring it up because that's how we help other children not go through it. That's how we help other people heal. And you don't have to go through sexual abuse, so to say, to become a good person or to be an awesome person. That's not what I'm saying. But right, it doesn't matter what you go through. Everybody's going to go through hard experiences. Just take whatever you go through and become a better person with it. Make it so other people don't have to suffer like that, or teach other people how to heal from it, or something like that, rather than, "Oh, I'm so picked on because I went through all this hard stuff. Everybody feels sorry for me, and can I cry for the rest of my life, you know, and be on mental medication and go to therapy for the rest of my life?" No, I don't think that's necessary. I think we can focus on the good and be better people.

I totally agree that we need to like not be victims. At the same time, I think a lot of people that leave the FLDS, they won't even talk about it. And to me, that's, no, I think we have to talk about it to heal. I, I will say one of the hugest healing things for me is writing my book. I think it's, if you never publish your story, write it down. You, you don't, no, I, most people shouldn't publish their story, but everybody should write it down because it is so healing to write it down. Yeah. It starts making sense, and I think you heal. I think another thing, if people use their hard experiences for an excuse to do bad, they're not going to heal. Yeah. And that's one of the things, and that's where they're going to not, they're never, I don't know. Yeah. That's one of the things I say is, how, how can we learn from our experience if we don't analyze it? Like, we don't even want to talk about it. Yes. But if we don't analyze it, we didn't learn anything. We're just going to do something stupid again. Yeah. Yeah. That's why. Yeah. It is so important to talk about. I think it's so important to talk. I think telling our stories helps other, also so many people in the world share hard experiences, similar experiences, whether it was a small group, a family, they, everybody goes through all kinds of abuse and domestic violence, all kinds of stuff. It's just they can still relate to us just in a different way. And maybe it sounds a little crazy in our world, but so does theirs for us, you know? Yeah. We listen to their stories like, "Oh my gosh, why would people ever do that?" But then they listen to our story, and we're like, "Oh my gosh, why would people ever do that?" I know. So, I mean, it's, it's a two-way street, and we all get to learn from each other's experiences. Also, we feel like we have people can relate, and it's nice to have people relate. I also feel like if people truly analyze it, they have a chance to understand like how insane of a thing they were part of. Yeah. Like once you really understand it, every day, every time I analyze this with somebody, I'm just like, "Oh my God, I, especially because I, my brain was so deep into that, it was insane. I cannot believe I was so into that." I know. I know we all were. It was crazy.

Do you have any last things you want to say to close up the podcast? Let's see. Just never believe that you are stuck in a bad situation, that you have to stay, bucket in a stuck in a bad situation. If you're not happy, and you know it's not right for you, don't, don't stay. Yeah.

There's one more thing I've got to ask you about, and it's the girls that have gone to marry, gone on to marry, uh, just in, kind of into other cults, if you ask me, somewhat. To me, I'm not, I'm not condemning those girls. I'm not saying they're doing something so wrong. But I think they're very naive. To me, it's like their mind is not totally free. They did not fully comprehend the world. And I think the thing that they say to us is like, "Oh, you think if we're doing anything religious or anything like this, then we're brainwashed?" And to me, it's like, no, out here, like you're doing your own thing. I'm doing my own thing. My brother, we all have disagreements. We're not. But we all kind of see clearly. And would you agree that it maybe they don't fully see the world quite clearly? I will say that dating, um, dating when you first leave, or to even get married when you first leave, you are this little first grader dater. You're a little first grader. No, you don't know what you want. I think even me, I made choices that I would never make now because I was so naive, and there was no one to guide me in the dating world. We had never been taught what to look for, what not to look for, because we didn't get to date. So I think we all come out and we're like, "Now we get to choose. We're just going to make a great choice." If we gave ourselves some time to heal before we made those choices, which is very difficult because we're all big adults that are moving on in years, and it's like, well, why would I wait? I'm an adult, you know? But we're still, we're little kids in the for the world. We were little children. We were dating as children. And I think whether we want to accept that or not, we're, that's how naive we were. And so to make those choices right after you leave, it, it's, it can be detrimental. I mean, it was for me. I, I've healed a lot from my choices, and I've had to learn that that wasn't the right choice for me, and I need to, I need to pick myself up, make a different, very difficult decision, and make a different choice, you know? But it took years for me to come to that. And that's what I'm for. So for me, I think for all of us, whether we want to admit it or not, to date right after we leave, we're dating as first graders. Yeah. And it's like, hey, you can go on a date, but don't. That's the problem with if you come from the FLDS, you just drip over in love. And it's like, no. No. 'Cause you suddenly are waking up to these feelings that you didn't have. Well, some of us obviously experienced marriage to a degree, and whatever. Still messed up. So I can't say it was ex, exact. It wasn't correct. But for especially these young people coming out, and well, now they're 30 coming out or whatever, they've never had sex, and now they're just the first girl that looks twice at them, they're like, "Oh, I'm so in love with her." And then it's like, "What the [ __ ]? You don't know what you're talking about." But they don't know that. They don't. And you, you feel, you, it's just, you feel so much. I feel so much love for them. And I feel so sorry for them. And I want to so much, I just want to wrap them in my arms and say, "Stop. Just, just go to a town that has no FLDS, nobody that's going to take advantage of you, and heal for a minute. Then after three or four or five years, date," which none of them do. So they all make a big mess. So many get pregnant really young if they leave young, or get pregnant before they're on their feet. I mean, so many girls are in dire circumstances because it's just, they're just too naive.

Well, I know you recently got divorced, and I just personally feel really strongly that if two people are not happy together at any point in their lives, and they can't see a fixable future, they should separate and not live that way. How do you feel? Yeah, I think for me, and I don't know how it is for everyone, I think you see that upfront. I actually saw that upfront. It was more trying to follow for me like, "Oh, Rachel, you were taught, well, everyone's going to think you're moral if you don't stay with that man," or just 'cause you dated him. You know, for me, we were taught such strict morals. I felt like I kissed this man, I have to marry him. Literally, that's how it felt at first, you know, because I was one of the first ones out. That's kind of how we were feeling about life, because we were going to live this moral life and prove to everybody that we were good, right? Whereas I needed to give myself room that it's okay to mess up a little bit, and you don't have to marry the first guy you kiss, or, or that kisses you, I should say, or whatever, you know? Yeah. Um, I was, I was very vulnerable. Um, also, I think for us, especially the girls, feel like you just do whatever the man wants. You just please the man always. I mean, you just, whatever, you just let him take charge and build him up, invest in him. No, that's not what you do. You have to invest in you and make sure you're happy. And, and I think for us who are trained that way, it's very, even more real that they should take more time before they actually make that decision. Yeah. Because for me, I knew, I knew I, I mean, we broke up with him the first year. I knew it wasn't right. But then to hear all the noise of, "Rachel, you got to do this, these certain, follow these certain rules to be a good person." And it's like, "Okay, I'll just not be happy for the rest of my life." I mean, and I'm not saying he, he's a bad person, I'm just saying for me, I knew upfront that wasn't right for me as far as happiness goes. And for my kids, they weren't happy. I, more than anything, just want to say, give yourself time. Give yourself time because people, and don't ever feel like you have to make a choice because, "Oh, you had sex with this person," or, "Oh, you kissed this person." If it's the wrong person, it's the wrong person. And you know it in your heart, or your gut, something tells you that's the wrong person. And you don't just keep going along with it hoping that someday it will start feeling better. It doesn't. It gets worse. Yeah. But I think a lot of those girls that are married, you know, down in that community feel like they look at all of us and be like, "Oh, you got divorced. You, you know, you've had five girlfriends. You guys are just, you guys are so messed up." You know, that's how they think. I think you can never take all of us as a group, and all of us are so individual, and our stories are so different, and however we figure it out, we figure it out. I think for all of us siblings that have left, and I, I love all of them so much. I see where they're coming from. I see where all of us have, it's just been such a journey, and I just feel like putting a huge cloak of charity around everybody and being like, "We all came from a very messed up world. Let's just love each other through whatever any of us choose to do, and trust that we're going to do the best thing for ourselves." And whether someone believes in this prophet, or this God, or this, whatever they choose to believe in, we have to give each other room because we came from a very messed up world, and we can't really decide who's right or wrong. All we can do is just trust that we'll use our experiences to be, to be better people. And I think if we're not shown love and judging each other, then how can we be there for each other when we go through hard experiences? And I, that's what this even this divorce has taught me, that those siblings who are just like, "Rachel, you're doing such a terrible thing to divorce your husband." So then I felt super alone, which is fine. It taught me so much. But to actually be judged so hard about that when I'm like, "Father took all you girls away from how many men? I mean, at what point do I have to stay with this one because I had sex with him? Just because I, you know?" I mean, it's just, I feel like I think we have to give each other so much room to heal and figure out what's right for ourselves. Yeah.

I feel like a lot of people in the FLDS, and, um, even out of it that are kind of still in, look at us and say, "Your struggle is proof that you're wrong." Yeah. It's like, no, the struggle is proof that we, we came from a very [ __ ] up situation. Yeah.

So, well, thank you, Rachel, for doing the podcast. I really appreciate. I think you have some of the best insight into Warren Jeffs. So, thanks for doing the podcast. Sadly. Yeah. Thanks everybody for watching. Like and subscribe. See you guys next time. Peace out. Bye.