Transcription
More trust takes time. And I do trust you. It's not that I don't trust you. Well, you don't trust 100%. I don't trust the situation 100%.
ORNA: What does that mean-- I just-- The situation?
Meaning, like-- The relationship? The rela-- meaning, that it could-- it could end at any possible moment. I mean, that's the-- That's the truth. We could have a house. We could have four kids. We could have five dogs. It could still end. See what I mean.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We got pregnant very early. We were only dating for a couple months before she was pregnant. It was a roller coaster and still is.
But you're saying that the fact that it happened at all or that it happened so fast--
I think it had happened so fast. He wanted to move in right away and he wanted to start a family and I would-- pushed back 'til the very day that he moved in.
But what-- what was your suggestion?
I thought that we should take our time. I didn't think that having a baby meant that we needed to force a relationship. You know, at the end of the day, I was already a single parent.
So-- You were a single parent?
Yes, I have another child.
ORNA: I see.
- Yes.
- From a previous relationship.
From a previous marriage, yeah. So I kind of learned my mistakes and my lessons, and I just didn't feel that his view of him needing to be there was so much more important than us figuring out each other because we were only together--
So you-- you wanted to-- in a way to prioritize the relationship.
Correct. Developing slowly.
Yes.
DRU: I totally understand where she's coming from, but at the same time, it's like how could you be OK with having a part-time father for your kid.
ORNA: Mmm hmm.
And then on top of that me seeing my child, what, on the weekends.
ORNA: Mmm.
No.
So tell me. How has it been?
TASHIRA: I mean, it has its ups and downs. We're very much separated in the house. You know.
What does that mean.
I sleep with the boys, and he sleeps in my eldest son's room.
And are you both happy with that?
No. That's not the way I want it at all.
You're not happy?
That's where she feels most comfortable.
Are you happy with that?
I mean, sometimes, yeah. I need my space. I have two kids, and sometimes I retreat to my room.
DRU: I don't think it's right that the boys see us separated all the time. And I don't feel, you know, the love in the house when that happens.
You're missing something that you want.
For sure.
- Mmm hmm.
- Yeah.
And you?
She's getting what she wants because she's in her room.
ORNA: Let's hear. Sorry. I just-- it's difficult for me because it's just not a comfortable situation, you know. And I know that he loves me. I mean, that's for sure. He won't go.
[LAUGHING]
He always tells me he's not gonna go. It's forever. Not in, like, a threatening way.
TASHIRA: But it's just been hard to, like, have that connection and kind of want that connection with him.
I'm gonna go back to-- actually I'll ask both of you. What do you feel like Tashi would need from you to create more togetherness?
I-- I really don't know what she needs for her to, you know, turn around. Maybe I'm not saying it right, but I don't know--
But-- but it's interesting that you don't know. Maybe you might wanna figure that out.
I've tried for so long.
But you seem like you have no idea. So it sounds like Dru doesn't have any idea what would--
TASHIRA: No.
Actually bring you two closer from your end.
Mmm hmm.
Can you say?
More understanding. You know, I want him to have empathy. I want him to listen to me.
Mmm hmm.
For me, it's just it's not just touching and hugging and kissing. I get that he needs affection. I get that he needs all those things because that's what makes him who he is.
Feel like-- But I'm not sure Dru feels understood.
No.
ORNA: Sounds if you both-- How do I not understand you? Perfect example. You feel that I need affection--
Mmm hmm.
And it's more about being seen. You're so in with the boys and cooking and I appreciate it all to the max, but I feel like I'm a ghost in the house. And I feel like I'm a robot.
That-- that I see. And I acknowledge that 100%.
Wait. That sounds meaningful. That I'm a robot and that he feels like a ghost?
No. I heard Dru say that when you say he needs affection, you're not hearing him, that he's saying he feels like a ghost like you don't see him.
Right. I understand that. Well, you did not convey that. Your response was and I'm a robot. And that is an issue. It's always but this. It's not-- like-- It goes both ways. You see. It goes both ways. He sent me a text last week about our sex life, that he's not very happy with.
Well, how was this text phrased or--
DRU: I just told her that it's nonexistent. I feel like I'm not wanted.
ORNA: Meaning you're feeling unwanted and--
DRU: And feeling like I don't even know how to even go about sex with her anymore because there's been plenty of times where she's denied it or she gives an attitude about it and she's just like, ugh, fine, OK. You know, it's not even about the physicality of the sex. It's more of the feeling that you get from your partner from that.
ORNA: So, Tashira, how was it to receive this text?
TASHIRA: Oh, I was a little annoyed to be honest, and I responded to him two days later and I was honest with him.
Two days you just didn't respond?
No, I didn't-- no, I didn't respond. I didn't respond.
What was going on inside you during those two days?
You know, it's difficult to say out loud that I find that he's more attracted to me than I am of him, and, you know, his weight, and I know that he has an issue with it as well because we've only had sex maybe three times completely naked. I mean, I've been completely naked, you know, but he hasn't.
ORNA: Dru, you don't get undressed.
Yeah, I'm just wearing my t-shirt. I'm just used to it. Not 100% comfortable with my weight but, you know, down the line during our-- our relationship, she's-- she's said some bad things in an argument about my weight. So I don't understand how you could make me feel any comfortable in wanting to get fully naked. So, yeah, but to come to the actual point of it, she's just not attracted to me because of my weight.
I don't know if it's because of the weight. Maybe I gained a couple weight after the baby was born and we moved in, or maybe she's just never been comfortable with it. I don't know. She needs to figure it out because if she's not attracted, then-- then that's that 'cause obviously if there's no attraction, there's no relationship. And I'm at that point where I'm just every time it's just a new issue. If it's not, we can't talk about it-- she feels like she can't talk to me or if it's not the resentment of having the baby or if it's not the resentment of moving in together and now it's the weight thing. So every time it's just a new-- it's just a new thing, you know, and I'm just tired at this point. I really am.
ORNA: Tashira, it does-- it does seem like you-- I don't actually get a real sense that you're invested in the relationship.
No.
Am I wrong?
No, not to-- not-- no, you're not wrong.
What we doing?
I mean, I'm-- I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to work on this. I mean, like, I've said before--
ORNA: But you're-- I think your way of-- of bringing yourself into let's say this kind of therapy might be similar to what you're doing in the relationship, which is you-- you-- you-- you show up and your entire message seems to be I got nothing. I have no wish here, which might be simply that indeed you've got nothing, you don't have any interest, or it might be your way of positioning yourself. And I think that's something for you to think really hard about.
OK. What do you want?
To be alone with the kids. That's what she wants.
To be alone with the kids. Is that what you want?
It's not always what I want. You know, I mean-- He-- he supports me, you know, and I know that if something were to happen, he would always be there for me. But I don't know. Maybe I'm just scared.
ORNA: Of?
Of being close to somebody, of giving somebody that-- I gotta check on the baby. He's crying. Giving somebody that power I guess, of committing to somebody in that way. You know, it's easier when you're alone. It's just you. You don't have to depend on anybody. So I, you know, it's not easy. It's not easy for me. I mean.
- Hi.
- say hi.
- Say hi. Good morning.
Say Hi. That is so sweet. You wanna put him on his chair? I'll see if he'll have lunch.
So, yeah, I just-- I think that--
You have a lot of fear of connecting and depending?
Yeah, I do for sure. You know, and that's what I mean when I say, like, I know he's a good guy. You know, he's one of the best guys that I've ever had. So I know that if I continue this way, you know, I may lose him.
Say more.
TASHIRA: You know, I mean, I'm trying. I'm here. I'm trying to figure this out and do this with him to the best that I can, but sometimes I don't know if I can. This relationship could end, you know. It's possible. I'm not saying, you know-- I know what you're saying. And-- but my kids are always gonna be there.
ORNA: Mmm hmm.
So sometimes it's like, well, I don't wanna put in all this work and then something happens between us and you leave, and then, you know, like, my older son will be left without having a stepdad or having to go through that hurt.
Are you-- are you thinking about a stepfather when you're saying this, your stepfather?
TASHIRA: I mean, yeah, my stepfather, my father--
Both of whom did not stay connected, involved?
Yeah. I mean, my-- my dad was around.
Mmm hmm.
You know, my mom got remarried, but she ran the ship. My stepfather was there, but he didn't really parent us--
Mmm hmm.
To an extent. My dad hated my stepdad. You know, he did some bad things to him.
ORNA: Who did bad things?
My dad. My dad would, you know, beat him up when he would come and drop us off. Trash his car when he would come. You know, he would wait on the corner.
ORNA: Really hated him.
Yeah. So-- and then my stepdad left, too. There's just always that fear of my kids not having a consistent father figure or that fear of me not being able to hold a relationship with a man. Sometimes, like, I do, you know, wanna to get married and do all those things so that I can lead by example and show my son that it's still possible. But then there's still that little voice in my head that tells me that it's not possible. So--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
DRU: I honestly feel that I can literally ask her to marry me right now and go tomorrow and get married, and she would still have this feeling of I'm going one day. I could buy her a whole island and say I'm gonna live here with you, and she'd still think I'm gonna take a boat out into the ocean.
I felt myself fuming.
Mmm hmm.
And I'm like it's just very, very sketchy topic, you know.
ORNA: Should we talk about it?
It was between him being a stepfather and my older son. He drinks a lot of water during the day, right, and we have, like, this water pitcher that, like, strains or whatever in the fridge.
- He, meaning, your stepson?
- Yeah.
Yeah. So he drank all the water in it, and I-- and I just made a comment. I said you gotta learn how to fill this thing up, you know, because it's always empty.
- Mmm hmm.
Right. But this one chimes in out of left field and is like, well, like-- right in front of him, Too-- Like, she's like, well, you need to learn how to fill it up yourself.
But I guess the choice to do it right in front of--
- No, the choice--
- The kid--
That is-- that's what I'm talking about.
- That-- that--
- Is an interesting choice.
That I understand. And that is-- I mean, it's-- it's hard for me. I always-- it's just like a defense, like, I don't know. Like, when he tells him to do something, it's just-- like, it bothers me.
It bothers you that Dru takes a position of authority?
Yeah, it does. It bothers me. It doesn't make me feel comfortable. And I get defensive.
You mean you don't want Dru to have that position in the family.
I do want him to have it, and I've been trying to allow him-- not allow him but, you know, just--
You could say allow. I understand that. OK, so allow him and give him the opportunity because I do understand that if we're gonna be a family unit that he needs to have that authority--
ORNA: Well, I mean, different people have different--
As well. Of course.
Ideas about paternal authority. Maybe you have-- maybe you're struggling to figure that out for yourself.
Well, yeah, no, I absolutely think so. I think it has a lot to do with that I did it by myself for a long time, you know, and maybe also because I didn't really grow up with a paternal authority or whatever.
ORNA: And because your father maybe exploited his paternal authority--
Yeah, I mean--
By being ultra violent.
I mean, there might be all sorts of reasons why you feel like you need to undermine Dru's authority.
Yeah. Sometimes I go back to that place, you know, and I don't know if I go back to that place maybe because sometimes I feel like it's not gonna be forever, you know, so it's kind of like--
You go into mistrust.
TASHIRA: Yeah.
I go into--
Mistrust--
Mistrust and--
And the father is not part of the family.
Yeah. Yeah.
ORNA: Mmm hmm.
You know, and I-- it's like I'm trying and sometimes I can keep it at balance, but other times like that particular time, you know, it just-- it just-- Yeah. Came out. And it's all- it's also been like--
So just to pause for a second. I mean, that's a very honest expression of what's going on. Right. Do you appreciate that?
- Yeah.
Mmm hmm.
Tashira's trying to figure out a way to honestly let you in despite history, despite years of doing it on her own. That's-- that's a real process. I assume you can appreciate that.
Yeah, I understand.
But are you still upset?
I'm not really upset, you know, just-- just the natural thought of like all right how long is this going to go on before you realize--
I knew he was gonna say that.
Well, I'm just saying what's on my mind, you know.
No, no, no, I know. I know.
- How long is gonna go on--
- Just a natural--
Until--
DRU: Before she can trust that I'm not going anywhere.
Mmm hmm.
DRU: You know Yeah.
Well, trust takes time. And I do trust you. It's not that I don't trust you. Well, you don't trust 100%. I don't trust the situation 100%.
ORNA: What does that mean, I situation? I just-- meaning like--
The relationship? The rela-- meaning that it could-- it could end at any possible moment. I mean, that's the-- that's the truth. We could have a house. We could have four kids. We could have five dogs. It could still end. See what I mean.
But-- I mean, what are you actually saying?
I mean, but I think that that's-- that's the reality of it. Some people break up. Some people don't last. Some people--
ORNA: But what-- what are the factors that make that happen?
I'm just saying-- Are you saying this generic thing that we can't hold on to anything? Things always change. Are you saying this person that I trust will turn on me? Are you saying there's no way to get out from under history?
I think all of that. I mean, I-- I don't--
No, what are you saying?
I just think it's--
ORNA: In the statement you-- OK. But in the statement, it's the fear of believing that it will all work out and then it doesn't.
It's-- But what does this mean it will all work out?
Meaning that we'll be together forever, that we'll have a relationship--
But what do you think that depends on?
I think it depends on the work that two people do.
Mmm hmm.
But do you believe that the two of you will put the work into it?
I believe that the two of us will put the work in, but I don't know if I believe that he's gonna want to forever. Does that make sense?
It's a little suspicious.
Why is it suspicious?
Because I don't really know what you're saying.
That she doesn't trust me still.
But based on the person--
TASHIRA: It's not-- it's--
- You know.
- OK.
I feel like if I don't figure out all my shit, that he's gonna get tired of it.
So you don't trust yourself really.
TASHIRA: Yeah.
OK. That's something you can work with. You-- you may be saying-- I don't know-- maybe you're saying that you don't trust yourself to not somehow push him out.
Yeah. OK. Well, you got work to do.
Yeah.
DRU: So we added a new member to the family. I got her her pup.
Oh, really?
Yeah. Her birth-- her early birthday present.
Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Yeah, he surprised me on Thursday. We came home, and he had a puppy with a red bow on it.
[LAUGHING]
Like, I didn't even-- I don't even think I believed it for the first day or two because it's just-- I never had a dog. I've never received a gift like that. When he was explaining to my son, like, you know, it's our dog, but it's your mom's dog because your mom has been through a lot this year. And she deserves to be happy and have something like this.
So-- Sweet. So loving.
DRU: Yeah. She know-- I mean, I hope she knows now that I'd go to the end of the Earth for her.
Mmm hmm.
You know, and when we say good night to each other, she asks for a hug and I gave her a hug and she started hysterical crying. And it took me, like, by surprise because you would think that it would come when you give them the gift. I've never heard her cry the way she cried as long as I've known her. You know, in my head I'm like-- it was not confused but, like, wondering, like, what triggered that, you know, that-- that such strong cry.
Mmm hmm.
Like, I didn't-- I didn't ask her about it, you know, I just let her be in the moment.
But do you understand?
DRU: No.
- No.
No. You mind saying?
You know, I was just there for her. I don't know. It just kind of just, like, happened. It's just that no one has ever done anything like that for me, and I'm not talking about, you know, spending the money or it's just the gesture and what he had said about me having a hard year and him going out to do something like that. At that moment, I was so grateful, and I just didn't know how. So when he hugged me, I just got hysterical. You know, I didn't mean it to come out.
No, no, no. And I wasn't unhappy. It was just--
No, I know.
Like, just this whoosh of emotions.
ORNA: Mmm hmm.
When you say-- and you've said that before, that you don't know how--
Yeah.
Maybe you can say some more?
I think it's like I don't know how to accept the happiness maybe. There's always this block, something that just stops me. And I think maybe that's another reason why I got hysterical because, like, there was no stopping the happiness.
- You made your choice--
- Yeah.
- That you're in.
- Yeah. Yeah. You know that, right?
- Yeah.
- Oh, OK. Just making sure. You wouldn't a got no puppy if I didn't know that.
Mmm hmm.
Yeah.
How have you been feeling with each other?
DRU: Good.
- Yeah.
Me personally, good.
ORNA: What has made for the most change?
Being able to express my feelings a little bit better. The vulnerability thing.
Mmm hmm.
The realizing that the anger is more of a cover up for the hurt and not wanting to say, you know, and give that piece to somebody and say hurt me.
Yeah.
DRU: You know. You know, it's crazy 'cause, you know, I always said I can trust her. Never had a doubt in it. But did I trust her enough to, you know, be vulnerable, which I didn't for a long time.
TASHIRA: Both of us had this big issue of pride and being right and not truly expressing what we were feeling at that exact moment, you know, whether it was hurt or sad or disappointed or whatever. And I think, yeah, that it was definitely hard for the both of us. Yeah. We still have our mishaps here and there. Yeah, but--
But, no. I can't tell you the last time we had an argument and we didn't talk for days. So good.
TASHIRA: Yeah. Wow. That's why I don't want it to end. I'm like no, and I'm thinking about it. And I'm like shit. Yeah, I know. We're talking about all this progression. It was just like-- We could do it. We'll be OK. We could do it. Yeah. There was a year to have therapy-- This was the year. Yeah, I know, and we didn't-- that was not in the plan.
Yeah.
Take good care of each other.
TASHIRA: We will. The kids, the cats, the dogs.
You, too.
ORNA: Yes, exactly.
You wanna meet the pup?
Yeah. Yes, I do. Yes, yay. OK. All right, let's go.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Wow. Oh, my God, this is ridiculously cute. Oh my God.