Freemasonry & The Early Nauvoo Endowment Ceremony - John Turner Pt. 29 | Ep. 2108

Hello everyone and welcome to the Joseph Smith podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Delin. It is January 21st, 2026, and we are here for part 29 in our series with historian Dr. John Turner, covering his important book, Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet.

Today, we are going to be covering again chapter 24 in his book. We're going to be talking about the year 1842 in Nauvoo, Illinois, with Joseph Smith. The chapter is called "Upper Rooms." Last week, we talked about the Book of Abraham and the plan of salvation and theosis and all sorts of innovations that spring forth from Joseph's 1842 time period and his work on the Book of Abraham and everything that came from it.

But we left off two really important parts of chapter 24 of John Turner's book. One is the introduction of Joseph Smith and many of his colleagues to, or membership in, the Masonic lodge, Freemasonry. You know, what Joseph and his colleagues' experiences were in Freemasonry in Nauvoo in 1842, and then how that influenced potentially the Mormon temple ceremony and other aspects of life in Nauvoo in the 1840s.

And then we're also going to be talking about the formation of the Relief Society, what the Mormon Church today would call the largest female-led organization in the world. Some would take issue with that characterization, but it's certainly at least on the roles, a six, a seven, eight million plus membership of women. Um, I may be overestimating there, of Latter-day Saint women throughout the world. Uh, well, it turns out this Relief Society, that today is a, is a women's organization run by the Mormon Church, it has its founding in Nauvoo, Illinois, in the 1842 time period by Joseph Smith and by his wife, Emma. And we're going to be talking about its emergence.

And maybe the biggest question of all for today is, at least as far as, uh, what I took from this important chapter, is to what extent, among, for, for all the other reasons that Joseph Smith created or or affiliated with the Masonic lodge and Masonry and created the Relief Society, to what extent were Masonry and the Relief Society important parts of Joseph Smith trying to manage his reputation, try and promote secrecy, and prevent damage from happening to his reputation and to the reputation of the church? That's what today's about.

And, uh, John Turner, thanks for your patience with that really lengthy introduction.

Well, thanks to everyone for their patience with this series. Uh, 29 episodes. That's quite something. I am excited to be back. I'm excited that, in terms of the book and podcast, we're in 1842. There is so much going on in Nauvoo, um, the rest of the way, and I'm excited to talk about it with you.

Likewise. Really quickly, I want to thank the donors to Mormon Stories podcast that make this series possible, and those who have donated specifically to John Turner's appearance via the donorbox.com/joseph link. We couldn't do it without your, uh, support. This series is best consumed chronologically, in sequence. So, for those of you who are able and willing, pause this episode if you haven't already. Go back to episode one, watch it all the way through. You'll get a lot more out of today's episode. You can find this series standalone on Spotify, standalone on YouTube as its own playlist under the Mormon Stories podcast channel. And of course, we've integrated it into the Mormon Stories podcast feed, uh, as kind of a weekly release. But again, if you want to support this series and see if we can get John Turner to even consider continuing the series, um, to talk about Brigham Young and his work with Brigham Young, or even if you just want to support the series as it's currently constituted, just go to more donorbox.org/josephith. And that's how to continue contributing.

All right. So, John Turner, let's jump into chapter 24, a second look at it. And maybe we should start with whatever you want to say about the Freemasonry and, um, Joseph's interest in Freemasonry. And I don't even mind jumping back to just reminding our audience about the William Morgan affair and even about whether you agree that the Book of Mormon was an anti-Masonic document to some extent, whether you see that as being a credible assertion as, as building groundwork for today's episode.

Yeah. So, great questions. And I, I do think a little bit of broader context is useful for figuring out what's going on in 1842. First of all, if people are not familiar with, uh, Freemasonry, I think it might be hard to understand why it had so much appeal in the revolutionary era and the early American republic. That was in part because, uh, Freemasonry was an institution that brought men from a variety of different backgrounds together for social and economic purposes. So, one individual referred to Freemasonry as that religion in which all men agree. So, something that could at the very least bring Christians of different backgrounds together, cut across some of those sectarian boundaries, maybe bring together sort of Orthodox believing Christians and people who were a little bit more, uh, freethinking. So, that's one reason why Masonry had had such appeal and why so many of the, um, say, Founding Fathers, uh, were Freemasons.

Then, in the mid-1820s, uh, Masonry, um, became something that was scandalous. Uh, that was connected to the murder of a man named William Morgan, uh, who lived in Canandaigua, New York, which isn't very far from Palmyra. He was murdered for making plans to reveal, um, the rites, the rituals of Freemasonry. These technically, these were secret. They were already in circulation elsewhere. But nevertheless, uh, Morgan's publishing plans, um, you know, uh, they, they brought about his demise, and that made anti-Masonry a powerful cultural and political force in the late 1820s. There was an anti-Masonic political party that was competitive in elections, especially in the Northeast. And I do think that moment of anti-Masonry influenced some of Joseph Smith's early texts, namely the Book of Mormon. And then even more explicitly, the Book of Moses, you know, Joseph's translation of the early portions of the Book of Genesis, in which Cain, uh, forms a compact with Satan and becomes Master Mahan. M-A-H-O-N.

And I, I always pronounce that Mayan for Mormons. Master Mahan. But it, I would trust your pronunciation over mine. But just to give Mormon Mormon speak, it's Master is how I pronounced it.

Yeah. We'll go with your pronunciations, John Delin, because as a historian, I'm so used to just reading these things and then, when I have to say them, I, I feel like it's a 50/50.

So, wait. So, the Book of It's the Book of Moses that talks about Cain being Master?

Exactly. And I, I read that as a clumsy code for Master Mason.

Oh, wow. That's interesting.

So, Joseph just changing the letters a bit.

And basically saying Satan or Cain was the original, what, evil person?

Original, original evil person who essentially forms this covenant agreement with Satan. And then that sort of compact is then passed down among the descendants of Cain. I also think the Book of Mormon itself has a really strong anti-Masonic flavor, especially now, you're going to probably have to help me with the pronunciation again. The Gadianton Robbers.

Gadianton.

Gadianton. I'm just going to embarrass myself all day long.

You know the facts. I know a couple pronunciations. Uh, makes us a good team. So, you can get a sense, I think, that in the late 1820s, I think very much in keeping with the political, um, social culture of that moment, um, in the Northeastern United States, Joseph Smith has this deep suspicion of secret societies and, uh, Freemasonry in particular. Now, um, there, he probably also knew something about, um, Freemasonry. So, his brother Hyrum Smith, uh, was a Mason. There's speculation that Joseph Smith Sr. might have been as well. I don't think that's, uh, documented. In the late 1820s, they had already become Masons.

Early to mid-1820s. So, prior to the publication of.

So, how could Joseph Smith hate Masonry? You may not know the answer to this, but how can he suspect and/or hate Masonry and his dad and brother are Masons?

Or did they, or did they go inactive or something with Masonry?

I think they went inactive. Um, I, I don't, I don't know that for absolutely certain, but for many Americans, the murder of William William Morgan in 1826, that's a turning point. What had seemed like a, at least benign, if not benevolent and useful organization, became in the minds of many Americans something malevolent. So, it's a big cultural shift. Now, that, um, that shift, however, doesn't persist. You know, that the notoriety that Freemasonry has in the wake of the William Morgan murder, that fades. So, by.

Okay, before, before we talk about the fading, can I ask you a couple questions?

Sure.

So, just to spell this out, I only know about this because Grant Palmer talked about this, um, in his book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Um, he, he basically gives five primary sources for the Book of Mormon, I believe, and one of them is anti-Masonic rhetoric, which I would have never even suspected. But tell us what aspects of the Book of Mormon narrative that you remember are, can be associated with or seem to be anti-Masonic in theme? And if, if you can't remember, I can prompt you.

Yeah.

I'm, this is on the spot. I'm kind of asking you on the spot, but you're going to have to prompt me beyond the,

Robbers, Gadianton Robbers, secret combinations.

Something about judges being corrupt, and these Gadianton Robbers/secrect combinations influencing judges, um, in the, in the government that otherwise would be dedicated to freedom. How's that?

Yeah. So,

And secret murders. Secret murders. Right.

So, I think, I think one thing that makes this a hard question is that these aren't exactly, I don't know, incredibly singular motifs, right? Corrupt judges, even secret combinations. However, I do think in the context of anti-Masonry in the late 1820s, the Gadianton Robbers and this persistent concern about secret combinations. I understand, uh, anti-Masonry as the inspiration for those, for that theme in the Book of Mormon. And then, as I said, I think it's even more explicit, uh, in the Joseph Smith translation/the Book of Moses.

Okay. Was there a concern in, in the anti-Masonic dustup that, because I always hear George Washington was a Mason, Thomas Jefferson was a Mason, like all the Founding Fathers were Masons. Was there a concern by the 1820s, in the wake of the William Morgan murder, that like the, the Freemasonry had infiltrated the government at a dangerous level?

That is a great question. I, I, I think I need to brush up a little bit more on my, my history of Masonry. So, I'm gonna have to punt on that one, John.

That's fine. That's fine.

Well, this is great because we can, two things. We can invite our viewers and listeners to tell us what they know, and then we can always have you do a little brushing up and come back on the subsequent episode to tell us what you've learned. It's fun. This is part of the fun process because I realize I'm putting you on the spot to ask you to speak outside of what's in the book.

No, that's not a problem. And I'm actually, I make a practice in my classes at my university. Questions are great. Answers not absolutely guaranteed. No worries. But you're, but, but I think you're not in any way alone in, in your, your, your perception that the Book of Mormon is heavily influenced by anti-Masonic rhetoric.

In, yeah, in the 1820s. Okay. I mean, when I read, when I read the book, the Book of Mormon, the first time that, you know, that stood out to me, that concern for secret combinations of the Gadianton Robbers, that stood out to me as an unusual theme. I think the atmosphere of anti-Masonry explains it. Early readers of the Book of Mormon, um, sometimes referred to it as the anti-Masonic Bible. Uh, and they did so because.

That's how it was perceived at the time by some, you're saying.

Exactly. Um, and that's because I think it's really hard for us to understand, you know, the power of anti-Masonry in the late 1820s, early 1830s. I mean, it was, it was a huge social and political movement in the Northeastern United States in particular. So, early readers of the Book of Mormon were therefore quite attuned to that theme.

Okay. And just a little bit of what I can do, just kind of researching, um, as we're talking, some of the elements that get listed are the Gadianton Robbers, Kishkumen, who is an assassin who's acting, you know, under secret command. Um, yeah, mention of secret combinations, chief judges that are corrupt. Um, Kishkumen puts a band together. The Book of Mormon mentions oaths and penalties. Uh, signs and tokens. Um, it's, you know, just this idea that secrecy is evil,

Right.

Right. That democracy can be infiltrated, that people can be murdered to preserve, um, you know, the secrecy and the secret combinations, and that God doesn't ultimately like secrecy, which is really ironic, given what happens in Nauvoo, right? If the Book of Mormon is anti-secrecy, then the Book of Mormon is sort of anti-Nauvoo developments in some ways. I, I do think there are some contradictions. And, you know, and I think some of those themes, they, they had, they had broad resonance even beyond Freemasonry. The, the concern about corrupt rulers and sort of cabals of judges, officials, you can find that you, that's pretty standard fare for, you know, sort of English political culture, um, in the 18th century, stretching into the American Revolution. Um, I do think, you know, for me, it's the, it's, it's a fairly basic observation, but the Robbers, the secret combinations, and then things like you said, um, and I, I see this even more starkly, uh, with Cain and his descendants in the Book of Moses. Yeah, Master Mahan is a real terrible.

Oaths and penalties. Um, you know, I think that that is, you know, Masonic language.

Anti-Masonic language because.

In this case.

Yeah. Really quickly, the last thing I'll mention from just my quick internet research, uh, it lists Ether 8 in the Book of Mormon as quote, the smoking gun chapter. It says many scholars point to Ether 8 as the clearest anti-Masonic polemic. Uh, Ether 8:18-25 explicitly warns modern Gentiles or Americans about secret combinations overthrowing free governments. It's a modern political warning, not an ancient narrative. And then it says that D. Michael Quinn called Ether 8, quote, unmistakably reflective of Joanian era anti-Masonic paranoia rather than ancient American history. Close quote.

Yeah, that's a powerful.

Does that resonate at least as possibly interesting, John Turner?

Yeah. Well, as, as if people have listened to the earlier episodes, they'll know I understand the Book of Mormon as a late 1820s production of Joseph Smith. So, absolutely. Now, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call that an absolute smoking gun because those, you know, I do think those themes have, have really broad resonance, but in broad strokes, I definitely see the culture in which Joseph lived being a key fundamental source for the text that he created. So, absolutely.

Yeah. Okay. Excellent. Well, that's great, great background. We really invite our viewers and listeners to share in the comments of this episode what they've learned about Joseph Smith, Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Moses, and Freemasonry. Uh, because I, you know, we could even possibly have a future episode talk digging more into this if, if the information warrants it. But either way, we're all excited and interested about this. Okay, so keep going, John Turner. Uh, William Morgan's assassinated. They eventually find his body. We don't know to what extent Joseph Sr. and Hyrum disaffiliated at some point with their Masonry participation.

I, I think I do think they did. Um, so I think then what's perhaps hard to understand also, but makes some sense, is by the 18, mid-1830s, everybody's moved on, essentially, or almost everybody's moved on from anti-Masonry. And you can think about, um, you know, parallels from the last 10, 10 years in our country. There can be this enormous event, uh, whether, whether it's January 6th, uh, whether it's a pandemic.

9/11.

Exactly. And inevitably, something that powerfully shapes, um, a relatively short stretch of time, it fades. And so, by the mid-1830s, um, Masonry has regained its, uh, sort of prior respectability. Now, there are definitely some die-hards who are still going to be, um, opposed to the fraternity, but lodges are regrowing their membership. Um, Masonry appealed to Americans for the same reasons it had, uh, earlier in the 19th century. And, you know, just as an example of why, uh, Masonry could have a lot of appeal, um, the leading figure in Illinois among the Freemasons, uh, was a man named Abraham Jonas. Uh, Jonas was, I think, the first Jewish, uh, resident of Quincy, Illinois. And Masonry, uh, created a space in which somebody like Abraham Jonas could socialize and cooperate, uh, with people from, you know, totally different, uh, usually Christian backgrounds. Um, and a lot, you know, there, there are powerful figures in Illinois, uh, Illinois politicians who are also, uh, Freemasons, such as Stephen Douglas. And I wouldn't exactly call him an, uh, overall powerful figure, but John C. Bennett, uh, was also a Mason. There were other church members who, um, I think in most cases prior to 1830, had affiliated with the Masons. Uh, Newell K. Whitney, uh, I think Heber C. Kimball. And so, once the furor over the Morgan murder and that political fallout fades, uh, Masonry is no longer sort of culturally toxic. And one other thing I would say that speaks to Joseph Smith's, uh, changing priorities is Joseph did, uh, come to change his mind a bit, or evolve his thinking on the issue of secrecy. So, we talked a few episodes ago how in 1838, Joseph had supported the Danites, a society of men loyal to church leaders who swore oaths to defend the church and its prophet. And that was a very rudimentary, sort of secret, uh, society. But particularly after Mormon Missouri collapsed and Mormon Nauvoo grows, uh, Joseph felt a keen need, uh, for secrecy and loyalty.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and of course, we've already spent a couple episodes talking about Joseph's, uh, emerging polygamy in Nauvoo. Is it 1840 or 1841 where he starts in earnest? I think it's 1841, right?

1841.

Yeah. So, he's doing this polygamy in earnest. What? He's probably got, what, eight, 10 wives by 1842, would you say?

By the spring of 1842. Yes.

And has John C. Bennett already started his spiritual wifery by this point?

Yes, that is also true.

Have we already covered John C. Bennett's spiritual wifery yet, or is that in a future episode?

That is coming up next time.

Okay. So, so an emerging, very compelling need for secrecy because, uh, because it's, is it fair to say that in 1842, Joseph would have perceived the, the polygamy secret getting out as being an existential threat to both him and his movement?

Yes. And as, as this episode proceeds, we'll, we'll talk about the way that he emphasizes that to members of the Relief Society, uh, in particular. Um, some of whose leaders are among, uh, are women who have been sealed to him. So, absolutely. Now, I think Joseph, he's not really resting the secrecy of polygamy. He's not really resting at making it hinge on, uh, people either joining the Masons or in what becomes the endowment ceremony, um, you know, swearing oaths and understanding the penalties for revealing secrets. He's first and foremost, he's introducing, um, plural marriage to people, uh, whom he trusts. But there is this general concern to form organizations, um, the Masonic lodge, the, uh, Relief Society, and also the group of, at first, those men who have been endowed, uh, of people who get trained in the principle of being circumspect and not revealing secrets.

All right. So, John Turner, I, if it's okay, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you and the audience to indulge me for just one second of my early history because this is kind of important. So,

So, I'm, I'm, uh, in the MTC. It's 1990. I'm in the, I'm in the Mission Training Center in Provo, Utah, uh, in the first two months of my mission learning Spanish so that I can go to Guatemala. And this young, she was probably, I'm going to say, if I was 19, she was 16. This 16-year-old daughter, Mormon daughter of a stake presidency member from my home, Katy, Texas ward stake. She writes me on my mission, uh, while I'm in the MTC. I had not learned anything about real church history. I'd only really experienced the correlated church history up to this point. And she writes me this letter, this young Tina Prince, sweetest, you know, Molly Mormonish girl you would ever meet. And she writes me this shocking letter that says, "John, I just want you to know I've left the church." And, um, I need you to know before you go serve on your mission for two years that what caused me to leave the church was that I found out that Joseph Smith was a Freemason, and that that temple ceremony that you just went through to, uh, get your endowments out to then go on your mission, that was heavily inspired by and influenced by, uh, Freemasonry, and Joseph Smith was a Mason. And those oaths and handshakes and signs and tokens and penalties that you learned, those are all straight out of the Freemason handbook. Do you know what I, what I wrote in response to Tina Prince, John Turner?

I am just going to guess that you told Tina Prince that she was totally wrong about that.

Worse.

Okay.

I said, Tina, never write me again. This is the end of our friendship. And I completely cut off.

That, that friendship. Um, I, you obviously, I've apologized to her. One of my very first Mormon Stories episodes ever was interviewing a, a master Mason who was also a Mormon. His name is Greg Kierney. And y'all can go back into the archives, first 10 episodes of Mormon Stories. I interview a master Mason who totally annihilates the idea that Freemasonry is truly ancient. Because that's the line that I was sold. It's that it's that, you know, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob when they did temple stuff, David, Solomon, when they did temple stuff, they did what, what we now understand to be the Mormon temple ceremony. That's the way they were doing as Jews in their ancient temples. But that that ancient temple ceremony got corrupted, and it was the, it was the Freemasons that helped revive it to then have it be ready for Joseph Smith to restore as part of the restoration of all things. And it was Greg Kierney who disabused me of this notion that the Masonic temple ceremony was actually ancient. But I'm probably getting ahead of you. Why don't you tell us your understanding as a scholar of whether or not we can say that Freemasonry, um, ceremonies have their roots in David and Solomon's temple?

Well, yes. No. So, that's that's legend that developed. Um, and that's such a, it's such a great qu, that's such a great, that's such useful context because yes, um, now I think among the Freemasons, there's a wide range of, I would say, responses to and understanding of, uh, rites. Now, as I mentioned, for many American members, um, of Freemasonry, the appeal was sociality, um, upward mobility, political connection. But then there were these rituals that hearkened back to Solomon's temple, um, or the figure of Enoch. And so, for some members of the fraternity, those rituals had appeal. For others, you know, those were a bit of a sideshow to what, uh, really mattered. Um, but yes, so I think there probably were definitely Masons who, for whom the rituals were not that significant, and they would have understood that, um, they did not, um, they did not stretch back into ancient times. For Joseph Smith, I do think the, the rituals were definitely part of the attraction. Um, it wasn't just the secrecy or the political connections. He also liked the, the substance, some of the themes of the rituals, the idea of key words, uh, that had power, uh, the oaths, tokens, penalties, handshake, pageantry, aprons. Um, you know, all of that had appeal, uh, to Joseph Smith. And as what you said alluded to, Joseph ends up teaching that, um, that Masonry was or is something that's ancient, that elements of it have degenerated, that it has this ancient connection to priesthood. Um, and that Joseph is restoring it to perfection, much the way Joseph teaches that he is restoring an imperfect Bible to its original perfection. I think that would be, that's a good analogy for understanding the way he explains this.

Fascinating. That's so fascinating.

And let me, let me add one more thing, John Delin. Um, which also speaks to you, you know, not being too pleased with that letter that you got from.

Tina.

From Tina. Um, so for a long while now, this, this has, you know, the connection between Mormonism and Masonry has been a point of controversy and even scandal. Now, that wasn't the case in 1842. You know, that, you know, Joseph Smith has followers who, you know, they write about this in very forthright ways that, um, there's a connection, a clear connection between Masonic ritual and what becomes known as the endowment ceremony. By, and I've mentioned sort of like the shift in place of Freemasonry in American culture, like from, uh, something that's understood as uncontroversial and good, and then notorious, and then good again. By the late 1800s and into the 20th century, you know, that esoteric part of Freemasonry once again starts seeming weird, cultish, maybe a bit scandalous to many Americans. A lot of, uh, Christians, Protestant Christians, uh, begin teaching that, uh, Masonry and Christianity are not congruent. They're, they're not sort of two things that respectable people can do at the same time. And so, at that point, the LDS Church begins to feel pressure, I think, to distance itself from this past connection between Masonry and Mormonism. And I think that still very much colors discussion of the subject, uh, today, um, in a way that it didn't back in 1842.

I love it. Okay. So, remind us now. Okay. So, you know, I think you've already mentioned in a past episode that bizarrely, one of the most bizarre turns in 19th-century religious history is that William Morgan's widow ends up a Mormon, right? And ends up as a plural wife of Joseph Smith, right?

She and her, uh, second husband, um, convert and are baptized into the church, I think in the mid-1830s. Then Joseph, um, lives for a brief time with Lucinda Pendleton Harris and her husband, I think George Harris, uh, in Missouri, and it seems, although it's not as easy to document as some, it seems that she becomes, she is sealed to Joseph by early 1842. So, yes, that is a very, uh, strange, uh, twist of things.

Yeah. So, what you've probably already mentioned this, but so Joseph is, he's in Nauvoo. It's 1841. It's 1842. What do we know about, like, what gets Freemasonry on his radar in the 1841-1842 timeframe to kind of get this ball rolling to where it ends up being incorporated into his temple ceremony?

So, great question. And actually, unfortunately, it's a little bit nebulous. I don't think, I don't think Joseph himself is the prime mover in establishing a Masonic lodge in Nauvoo. So, um, Nauvoo, there's a group of Nauvoo men who receive a dispensation from Abraham Jonas, the Grandmaster of the Illinois Lodge. They get that dispensation in October of, uh, 1841. Uh, there are some initial lodge meetings in late December of 1841. I think Joseph was probably involved by that point, uh, because there, there's a reference in, uh, Brigham Young's diary in very early 1842 that refers to Joseph in the context of the lodge. Um, I think it's likely that men like John C. Bennett, uh, were significant in getting this off the ground. Um, probably also men like, uh, Newell K. Whitney. Um, I'm not a 100% sure. I think essentially Masonry had been on Joseph Smith's radar screen for some time, um, over the previous few years. Um, the historian Samuel Brown, uh, he's got a nice line in his book, um, In Heaven as It Is on Earth, in which he says that Jo, Joseph toyed with Masonry until he found sort of a purpose for it, or something like that. And I think, um, and then we know that, uh, Joseph definitely, um, goes through, um, and is initiated as a Mason in mid-March of 1842. Um, he is quickly raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason. Uh, some people speculate because of those earlier references that I mentioned, that that might have been sort of a recapitulation of an initiation that could have taken place, um, several months earlier. I think he's definitely taking some inspiration from Masonic, um, motifs, uh, when he begins using phrases such as, um, key words, uh, grand key words in the production of, uh, the Book of Abraham, uh, early in 1842, too. So, I, so, I think, you know, there's sort of an engagement at least over the few months that stretch from the end of 1841 through March, um, of 1842. Joseph then introduces what becomes known as the endowment ceremony in May of 1842.

Okay. So, just to restate, John C. Bennett was a Mason, and we know that he is mayor of Nauvoo and co-president of the church, I think, by 1840, 1841. Is that right?

One of Joseph's assistant presidents.

And you mentioned Stephen Douglas, who was influential in Joseph's legal, you know, um, experiences. Stephen Douglas and many other Illinois state politicians and officeholders were also Freemasons. So, like you say, it's certainly in the zeitgeist. You mentioned, um, yeah, you mentioned as sort of a precursor on the top of page 271 that Joseph's penchant for secret organizations can at a minimum be tied to the Danites in Missouri, where he started to need a secret group to help protect him and to help do his and the church's bidding. You used the quote last week of, of Joseph's quote about secrets. Do you want to retell us his famous quote?

Sure. So, in, I'll give you the longer version. Um, in, basically mid-December of 1841, this is recorded in Wilford Woodruff's, uh, journal. Uh, Joseph publicly talks about secrecy. I think, I think it's a Sunday, um, discourse sermon. Says, "The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them, but reveal them. We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies." Then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? And then Joseph says, for himself, "I can keep a secret till doomsday."

That's awesome. That's an awesome quote. Like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm mindful of the modern debate we're having over whether or not Joseph practiced polygamy because even though there's quite a lot of historical evidence that suggests that he did, there's a lot of people that never said, "Joseph and I were polygamists," you know, or, or, yeah, "Joseph came and told me that I should be a polygamist," or whatever. And you just have to, if you're being fair, you have to realize that there's all sorts of things in history that people don't write because they're secret or sensitive. Right.

Absolutely. So, both, um, you know, a lot of the activities of a Masonic lodge are really banal. Uh, they're just men meeting weekly or monthly, uh, initiating new people, dealing with membership, uh, business. Um, in terms of both the, uh, endowment ceremony and plural marriage, yeah, these are, these are secret activities that some people refer to in writings from, uh, the time. A few people like William Clayton have a great deal, uh, to say about, uh, plural marriage, but other people do keep very circumspect.

Yeah. Let's talk really quickly about, if you don't mind, um, the Masonic temple ritual itself and what we know about it. You write about it on page 271 of your book. I'll never forget, I'm in Guatemala. Um, my predecessor on my mission in Puerto Barrios baptizes an owner of a hardware store in Puerto Barrios, and he's a Mason, and he drives around with a skeleton hanging from his rearview mirror in his truck, and I think it's Hyrum, and he tells me, "Do you know who that is? That's Hyrum." And he, you know, in Spanish starts talking about Masonry to me as a wide-eyed, you know, Mormon missionary. And I had no idea of who Hyrum was or anything about the actual ceremony. So, tell us a bit about it.

Yes. Well, Hyrum, it's not an unusual name in the early 1800s, we know because of Hyrum Smith, right? So, let me just very briefly, uh, capitulate, rec, you know, talk a little bit about the, um, rituals of Craft Masonry. I'm not an expert on them. So, I don't know all that much beyond what is in, um, what I summarized in the book. But in order to achieve the rank of Master Mason, and this is what Joseph Smith, uh, would have, um, experienced at least in March of 1842, a candidate, an initiate, is blindfolded, and then in this rite, sort of in this pageantry, plays the role, assumes the role of Hyrum Abiff, who is understood as the architect of Solomon's temple. It's not a biblical figure. Um, it's, um, I think it's a legend that may or may not be specific, uh, to Freemasonry.

And as, if it's okay, I'm going to, I'm going to interject parallels to the Mormon temple ceremony experience as you're going through this. So, already we've got a temple,

Right.

And then we've got somebody who's who's acting as an officiant to a process, a proxy kind of idea. And in the Mormon temple ceremony, you go through as Adam or Eve. So, this idea of it's in a temple, and you're sitting as proxy of a, a previous historical figure. You're already starting to outline the actual LDS endowment. But keep going. Is it okay if I do that? Just draw those parallels.

Interject whenever, whenever you want.

Okay.

So, then as Hyrum, uh, the candidate is murdered, not actually murdered, this is just reprised, um, for his refusal to reveal the secret Master's word. Then, uh, the Master of the Lodge, who will be, uh, playing the role of King Solomon, raises the candidate. You know, so resurrects the candidate and whispers in his ear a substitute for that Master's word. And.

So, there's definitely whispering in the ear of words in the LDS endowment.

And then, and then, yeah. The initiate acts out the consequences that he will suffer if he, unlike Hyrum Abiff, uh, betrays that word, uh, betrays Masonic secrets. He'll have.

And in the LDS endowment, you're definitely taught secret words or slogans or phrases. And then when I went through, I absolutely would act out hand signs of cutting my throat, disemboweling myself, cutting out my heart as penalties for revealing the secrets of what I was being taught in the temple that day. So, keep, yeah, keep going.

No, that, that, that's right. So, I, in the, uh, rituals of Craft Masonry, an initiate would act out having his throat slit, abdomen disemboweled. Um, and of course, there's also, uh, it's not just about punishments, it's also about rewards. Um, for those Master Masons, uh, who remain true, they would anticipate a glorious celestial, uh, eternity. They would, by, um, vocalizing a password, uh, enter into, this is a quote from, uh, William Morgan's, um, expose, they would enter into the celestial lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

Yeah. And obviously there's the.

And you know, there, there are also hand grips, um, you know, there's a lot, there's, there's pageantry, um, along the way, um, as well, and there's also, um, there's also robe and apron. So, I don't know if, if you have an image that you can share on the screen, but in the book, um, I include an image of Joseph Smith's own, uh, Masonic apron, uh, which is held in the Community of Christ, uh, archives. So, I mean, we can see exactly what Joseph Smith would have worn in 1842.

Okay. And John Turner, since you mentioned it, here I have a photo, a reproduction or a photo of Joseph Smith's Masonic apron. It's got that G. Uh, it's got two symbols that will be very familiar to our, um, to our Mormon viewing audience. It's got the compass and the square. Those are two of the symbols that are, uh, you know, sewn into the garment tops of all Mormons who wear garments. Um, and, uh, yeah, the All-Seeing Eye. A lot of these images on this apron, the All-Seeing Eye, and the compass and the square, and the star are all symbols that are actually also chiseled into the Salt Lake City Temple. The, the Salt Lake City Temple, and I believe the Kirtland Temple, but maybe not. But, uh, you know, I, I know that I've seen at least one or two Mormon temples that have handshakes, stars, moons, the sun, All-Seeing Eye, and squares and compasses. All of that Masonic imagery chiseled into the stone of the temple. Not to mention the fact that the Mormon garments have a, a compass and a square sewn into them. That's all, it sounds like that's all Masonic, uh, residue.

Fair. Mostly fair. I mean, to be particular, uh, there's, there's a lot of intersection between biblical imagery and motifs and Masonic imagery and motifs. So, the sun, moon, and the stars. I think the inspiration for that is actually a passage in the Book of Revelation. May also have influenced the Freemasons. I'm not sure. But yes, in, in broad strokes, what you said is true. Um, and you can definitely date that to Nauvoo. The, um, you can look at the architectural drawing for the horizontal angel on the Nauvoo Temple weather vane that includes a square, uh, and a compass, uh, which were understood by Freemasons, I think, as symbols of, uh, morality, restraint, and industry.

Uh, industry. Wow, that's interesting. And then, just to really put a fine point on it, the, the Masonic, as I understand it, the Masonic handshakes are like thumb on the knuckle, thumb between the knuckles. The even the, um, the handshake where the pinkies are kind of interlocked and the index finger is touching the wrists. Those handshakes, um, and the penalties, the slitting of the throat, the disemboweling, the cutting out of your heart, those are all directly taken from the Masonic ritual. Correct.

So, technically, John Delin, you have a bit more experience with some of these than I do. Uh, so, I'm, I'm going to defer to you. I don't know. I don't know if those are identical, but I think you also have to think about this in, it's, it's also useful to think about this in broad strokes. You know, why have handshakes? Why have penalties? Why have oaths? Why have key words? Now, Masonry wasn't the only thing that inspired Joseph Smith in some of those directions. You know, he was clearly interested in handshakes. We talked a few episodes about his suggestion that if you meet a spirit and you don't know if it's, um, the devil or an angel, offer to shake hands with it. So, he's been, you know, has a prior interest in handshakes, but, um, in broad strokes, yes. Um, all of these flow out of Joseph's engagement, uh, with Freemasonry.

Okay. And, and here, uh, I, I found on the Mormon Stories website, actually, um, uh, you know, a depiction of Masonic hand grips. And basically, what you see is various handshakes where thumbs are being placed on various parts of the knuckle of someone's hand. Um, these are the past grip of a Master Mason, the real grip of a Fellowcraft, the apprentice to the past grip of a Fellowcraft. And then the final handshake is called the real grip of a Master Mason, or the Lion's Paw. But these are all various types of handshakes that, um, you know, that are, uh, that are viewed as Masonic. And there's much more. Um, and, and the only other thing I think is worth mentioning is, is that all of this stuff appeared in the Mormon temple ceremony as I went through it in 1988, um, up through 1990. And it was all stuff that the movie The God Makers pilloried in the 1980s. And the evangelicals came after the Mormon Church really hard about the Masonic origins and the violence of the Masonic origins, um, that made it into the Mormon temple ceremony. And then in 1990, all of that stuff was taken out, including the, the five points of fellowship, and, you know, um, the use of the term "heel." All these things were removed by 1990. So, somebody who began going through the Mormon temple after 1990 is going to have exposure to none of these things. But those of us who went through before 1990 will have experienced all of them. And it does beg the question, why were they ever removed in the first place? Why were they put there in the first place if they then had to be removed? But that's just, we, we did actually an LDS Discussions episode on the connection between Freemasonry and the Mormon temple ceremony where we show a lot more images and we go into a lot more depth. Instead of trying to readjudicate all that here, I'll have Julia list that as a link in the show notes. John Turner, you wanted to take us to the emergence of the original, what? Nauvoo endowment.

Correct. Let's go there.

So, maybe also to speed the story up just a scotch. So, there are hundreds of Mormon men who are initiated into the Nauvoo Lodge starting in March of 1842. It quickly becomes, uh, by far the largest Masonic lodge, uh, in Illinois. Joseph has been telling, uh, church members that there are things they are only going to receive once the temple is completed. They're going to get grand key words, or in early May of 1842, he says he's going to reveal certain signs and words to the elders when the temple, um, is built. Uh, but in that same month, in early May of 1842, uh, Joseph moved ahead and revealed more to a select group of trusted men. Um, nine, uh, of his most trusted associates to start with. Uh, those included his brother Hyrum Smith, uh, a number of the apostles, also Bishop Newell K. Whitney. All of these men, uh, either had been or had recently been initiated as Masons. And Joseph gives them what, uh, Willard Richards, an apostle and one of Joseph's, uh, scribes, simply refers to as instructions concerning, uh, the priesthood. This is what later becomes known as the Nauvoo endowment ceremony. And in terms of the details, we don't have a lot of very contemporary, uh, sources. Brigham Young's, uh, later rec.

Because it was top secret, right?

Because it was secret, right? Um, so there's, you know, Willard Richards wrote a little bit about it. He said that the purpose of these instructions was to secure the fullness of their blessings so that they would come up and abide in the presence of Elohim, God, uh, in the eternal worlds. Uh, essentially, they would repeat the signs, tokens, and key words that would allow them to pass by the angelic centuries and enter into God's, uh, celestial presence. Brigham Young, I think a few decades later, uh, his recollection is that he and the other initiates were taken into, this is on the, um, second floor of Joseph's red brick store in Nauvoo. Uh, they're taken into, uh, one of the upper rooms. They're washed, anointed. They had their garments placed upon them. Joseph then gave each man a new name and taught them key words that included signs, tokens, and penalties. Then they proceeded into the larger upper room, which had been divided into smaller compartments with curtains. And so then they passed through a series of rooms, received a series of key words, signs, tokens, penalties. And we know that, um, by a few years later, this had evolved into, um, an endowment, endowment in which a man and a woman reprise the roles of Adam and Eve. It's possible, this is all men at first, so it's possible that from the get-go that men were reprising the role of Adam. It's also possible that that's, um, an innovation that came a little bit later. We just don't know.

Um, and, and the Masonic Lodge is all men, and, and for a long time, it was all white men. One thing I didn't realize is the Masonic Lodge was segregated for a long time. So, eventually, they let there be black Masons, but black Masons had to have their own, uh, lodges. The white and blacks didn't mix in the Masonic lodges, I think, for, for a long time. Um, and, and again, this washing and anointings thing first appears in Kirtland. We talked about that previously, right?

Correct. So, the, the, the washing and anointing, uh, that is a carryover from Kirtland. So, to some extent, this is an expansion of rituals that Joseph had introduced, uh, six years earlier. But the garments, the new name, the key words, the signs, uh, the tokens and penalties, um, those reflect Joseph's engagement, uh, with Freemasonry really over the prior half year, I think it'd be best to say.

And John Turner, help me, help me make sense of this. As I'm remembering right, when Zion's Camp failed, Joseph's response was that he had a promise for, wasn't it an endowment from on high?

Yes. An endowment of power from on high.

So, it seems like from at least Zion's Camp failure.

Forward, Joseph was always telling the saints, "You're going to get an endowment of power from on high, and I'm working on it. Be patient." And so it seems like this Nauvoo Freemasonry temple endowment is just sort of a continuation of Joseph's intent to make good on that promise and maybe to expand it. Is that fair?

So I think there's some carryover, but I do think there's a bit of a distinction, or or there's there's some new things as well. So Joseph talking about an endowment of power that actually predates Zion's Camp. Uh, it's in Joseph's early 1830s revelations, but it's sort of a consoling idea in the wake of Zion's Camp. That endowment of power then comes to pass in Kirtland and it's this Pentecostal experience of the inrushing of the Holy Spirit and visions and speaking in tongues and elders being equipped to go out into the world on missions.

In Nauvoo, I do think it's a bit different. I think there's this emphasis on secret knowledge and instruction that will facilitate the celestial exaltation of those who are are initiated into this rite, and that reflects the ongoing development of Joseph's thought and and theological ideas between Kirtland and Nauvoo. I just think that's a really important thing to mention. We could talk about the secrecy of the Masonic the Freemasonry elements. We could talk about the violence of them. We could talk about polygamy, which we will in just a second in the Relief Society. But I think we would miss the importance and the full impact of what Joseph was doing if we didn't mention that part of what he was doing with all of this was to, in the minds of his followers, grant them power, special power on earth and a pathway to godlike exaltation in the next life. Is that right?

No, I think that's quite right. So, Joseph explains this. Um, >> "And who doesn't want that? Who doesn't want special power in this life and exaltation in the god-like exaltation in the next life? Who doesn't want that?" >> Well, a lot of people did want that, right? It was a it was a really powerful, that's a powerful idea. So in the next year, uh, just just uh, it's before the church's annual conference in April of 1843. Joseph teaches this, um, "The white stone mentioned in the Book of Revelation is the Urim and Thummim whereby all things pertaining to a a higher order of kingdoms will be made known, and a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth. receiveth it. The new name is the key word." So, you know, Joseph is teaching, you need to receive this uh instruction in order to come into the celestial kingdom. I think, you know, Joseph, he introduced the idea of the celestial kingdom way back in 1832. In Nauvoo, Joseph is really actively, I think you could say, figuring out and then teaching his followers what they need to do in order to attain that power and glory. And so this is one one part of that answer.

>> And I think it's fascinating just to just to reiterate what you've already told us that another important thing that the Masonic parallel between the Mormon Temple Endowment in Nauvoo and the Masonic Lodge is a promise of what?

Celestial eternal greatness. Well, I would say celestial glory to some extent. So, you know, simply, I think in Masonic sources, it would be a little bit more just gaining entrance into something like God's celestial lodge. So, a continuation of this sociality, um, on earth in heaven. Joseph is far more, um, invested theologically in the idea of degrees of power and glory. Now, I think there are elements of that in Masonry because there's sort of always another degree. There's always another rite that one might pursue and receive instruction in. But for Joseph, you know, eternal power and glory, they are paramount concerns.

>> Okay. So, it's it's that and it's keywords, oaths, penalties. You write this. This is in your book. "Freemasonry was the inspiration for the keywords, oaths, and penalties, including gestures symbolizing the macabre punishment individuals would suffer should they reveal the ritual's content. The robes, caps, and aprons also represent Masonic influence because the Masonic lodge, they wear interesting looking caps, robes, and aprons." I was going to just note in the modern Mormon temple ceremony attire, the apron is green and it basically just represents a fig leaf that Adam and Eve would have worn. So, I'm surprised to see that Joseph Smith's apron wasn't a green fig leaf. It was literally a bunch of Masonic symbols and gestures. That was u that's that's new and interesting to me, at least in my current mind.

Yeah, >> I I think, you know, I think sometimes it's possible to get hung up on arguing about whether a particular detail definitely comes directly from Freemasonry or also reflects Joseph's more longstanding engagements with biblical motifs and imagery. There's a lot of crossover between uh Masonry and uh the Bible. I don't think it's necessary to, you know, it's not always necessary to render a judgment on whether a particular detail is absolutely Masonic versus biblical. There's a lot of overlap, um, and intersection. Uh, I think one phrase that you like to use, John Delin, is that "everything is remix." And so, you know, Joseph is encountering these ideas in Freemasonry. He's recasting them for his own purposes. You know, he doesn't just directly take, say, the story of Hyram a Biff. Joseph loves, um, the Book of Genesis, especially the early chapters of the Book of Genesis. So, it's not surprising that ultimately he finds inspiration there, uh, for this new instruction that becomes the endowment.

>> Fascinating. And again, the it's interesting and important to understand that the at the beginning of the emergence of the Nauvoo Endowment, women weren't yet involved, which I think I probably guessed, but I didn't guess that Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden story and the green apron fig leaf stuff that comes a bit later than when it's originally introduced. That's interesting.

>> Yeah. And I think we're not a we can't be 100% certain about exactly what Joseph introduces in May of 1842. The sources are really sparse. Um, as I said, Willard Richards simply refers to this as "instructions concerning the priesthood." So the term endowment might not have been used, uh, right at the start. Um, there are, you know, compartments through which men, uh, progress. The story of Adam might well have been there, um, at the get-go, but certainly there was no Eve accompanying them at this point.

>> Okay. So, a couple couple more nerdy questions about Freemasonry, if that's okay. Um, one is, uh, what what is it? You know, for some reason this reminds me of Zelf. Uh, a and, you know, Joseph just seeing some bones and saying, "That's Zelf, the white Nephite who's dead." You know, just his ability to sort of like, or or or the papyri and and the mummies. It's just like, "Oh, well, yeah, that's that's, you know, a papyrus written by the hand of of Abraham and of Joseph of Egypt." You know, just how he was able to just encounter something in the physical world and immediately both draw a parallel to his religious worldview, but incorporate it into his theology and doctrine. I Is it is it wrong to put his engagement with Freemasonry and its incorporation into the endowment sort of on that same level of habit or penchant that Joseph had with both the Zelf and the papyri and the mummies? Does that is there a parallel there? I don't even know that I understand my own question.

So, you know, the first thing that that stands out to me is these bursts of creative activity that can have all sorts of different inspirations. I think that's the through line here. And for Joseph, these bursts of creative activity, they often come in very concentrated times. So the Book of Mormon, couple of months, I mean, the second go-round at least. Um, but absolutely when Joseph encounters the papyri and the mummies in the summer of 1842, there's just these bursts of bursts of activity, textual production. Then Joseph kind of sets it aside. I do think his engagement with, uh, Freemasonry is similar. It it's just a spur. It's a catalyst, uh, for all of these ideas to come forth. And, you know, Joseph Smith, he's often kind of in a rush, uh, through things. So, it seems so characteristic that he would, uh, be raised to these additional Masonic degrees, uh, within, I don't know, 24 hours. That seems so characteristic of Joseph. I also think, you know, one one other theme, um, that I try to follow throughout Joseph's life is he had, you know, he had capacity for mirth and fun and pleasure, and he did like secret things, whether that's the Book of Mormon plates, whether that's running through the woods, whether that's hiding out from law. And and as I said,

>> He's an extrovert. He's an extrovert and he likes to do stuff with people.

>> He likes to do stuff with people. Like, so you can see why this would appeal to him. And he loved the pageantry. He loved the rites. He loved the sociality. He loved the meetings. And I think because, and you sort of alluded to this in terms of the church getting, you know, fierce criticism for evangelicals over this connection with Freemasonry in the '80s. I think we are still living in a time where the idea that Joseph would have been engaged with Freemasonry and taken inspiration from it, well, that's that seems scandalous. Uh, because I think across traditions, we generally like our religious leaders to get all of their inspiration directly from God, not from this lodge, um, that might have a dubious, uh, reputation at certain times. But for Joseph, this is not a scandalous thing. It's not scandalous to become a Mason in May of 184 in March of 1842 for Willard Richards and Heber C. Kimball. It's not scandalous that there's this content overlap between the endowment and Freemasonry. They're very forthright about it. Um, when they write about it that summer, they don't they don't see this as scandalous. They see it as, you know, it's a feature, uh, not not a problem.

>> And and I appreciate your patience with me. It may feel like I'm I'm drawing this out, but there's an element that's really important to the lived Latter-day Saint here, and I'll just I'll just say it briefly. Prior to 1990, what are you taught? That the Mormon temple ceremony is direct revelation from God. It's the most sacred thing in Mormonism. It's the most secret thing in Mormonism. And not only can you not talk about it to outsiders, you can't even talk about it to your own parents or your own siblings or your own children or your own spouse outside of the temple. Like, you can only talk about the Mormon temple in the Mormon temple, and you never talk about any of these details, and it's all direct revelation and the most sacred thing. So, like, you go and you're just thinking, this is going to be the coolest thing and the most important spiritual thing ever. And then you experience and I've interviewed hundreds of people on Mormon Stories podcast, literally, who all have the same story. They go to the Mormon Temple thinking they're going to have this divine spiritual experience that's direct revelation from God, the most sacred ceremony. And then you do a bunch of creepy, weird, violent stuff that makes you question whether you even believe the church is true anymore because for so many people, it it ended up feeling violent and cult-like, not spiritual and, um, exhilarating. And so it's like this crash moment where you're in this car wreck, dripping with blood metaphorically, saying, "What in the world is happening to me right now?" And then just miraculously, one day, the church takes all that stuff away, or most of it away, and just says, "These are not the droids you're looking for. It was never really about those things. It's about the covenant you make." And, you know, we just took out the stuff that wasn't important. And those of us who went through before 1990 are like, "What, what just happened here? I thought that was revelation, and why was it there to begin with?" And the church wants to just have this new narrative of just like, "None of that was important. What's important is the covenants you make." And you're just going, "What is happening right now? Does any of the past matter?" And by the way, how long did you know that Joseph had been a Mason? How long did you know that this temple ceremony was inspired by Freemasonry? Again, like I responded to my friend Tina, "Never write me again, you anti-Mormon bad person." You know what I mean?

>> Like, why weren't we told this? How can you remove it without explaining why it was removed? And how could it have been revelation then, but still revelation now when you've gutted it? And so there's this accounting of not giving us the full history and then changing it, but never explaining why it was changed. That's all. And just the horrificness of the violence of the experience itself that is never accounted for to this day in the life of a lived Mormon over the age of 56. You know what I'm saying? And so it it seems just like I'm beating a dead horse or eating eating the gristle or focusing on the gnat or the fly on the rear of the historical horse. But I just have to tell you, John Turner, trust me on this. For so many millions of Mormons, this is like, "Slow down. What just happened here? We've never talked about this, and there's never been an accounting for it." Does that make sense at all?

>> Oh, that makes total sense. Uh, and I think, um, yeah, obviously I don't have I don't have personal knowledge. Um, I one book that I've read recently that I enjoyed is Jonathan Stapley's recently published, I think the title is "Holiness Unto the Lord," and he talks a bit about his first experience and how fortunate he was to have a relative who could sort of be with him and help him, you know, understand and process what he experienced. I think one of the things that that you point to is it can be really fraught if you have a lot of buildup for a ritual and you don't have knowledge about it in in in advance and you have super high expectations, and then the reality doesn't meet your expectations, you know. And I, I don't, I, I guess one other thing that occurs to me, and I, I often like to think about parallels, you know, between the Mormon experience and other traditions. So, the idea of having a secret ritual only for a select group, um, or maybe for insiders but not for outsiders, that's certainly not unique to, uh, Mormonism. Makes me think of what it might have been like for some early Christians who were not privy to the Eucharist, to the sacrament, to the Lord's Supper, uh, prior to their baptism. And that was such a really anticipated ritual that was only for insiders, that was not revealed to the world, that fueled all sorts of, uh, rumor and scandal among non-Christians. And I wonder, um, you know, we think of, we might think of the Lord's Supper, the sacrament, as something, well, that's pretty unobjectionable because you're just sitting, you know, you're just sitting there having, in your case, a little water and bread, in my case, some grape juice and bread. Um, but for a lot of early Christians, there must have been tremendous buildup before partaking of the Eucharist for the first time. And I wonder if if some people were disappointed, uh, or even, you know, had some of those feelings that that you articulated.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Just to process this this idea that everything is remixed. Every doctrine, every theology, every ritual, not just in Mormonism, but in any religious tradition, it's a it's never a thing got revealed from God and then we do it. It's like there's not a doctrine or or element of theology or of scripture or ritual that doesn't that isn't always under some sort of evolution. It seems, I know I'm speaking in very broad sweeping terms, but it just seems like the the one constancy in religious, ritual, doctrine, theology, scripture is change. Constant >> Yeah. >> change over time. And any point you think that at this point in time, this thing that got delivered was the thing from God, you're setting yourself up for disappointment as a as a religious believer, it seems. And yet at the same time, institutions often feel, um, I don't know, pressure is the right term, but there's often a need for a sense of permanency and unchangingness at the same time as things are changing. Those are whole hard to hold, uh, together. I mean, I also think in terms of ritual, one one reason why ritual is often so powerful in the context of religion is from familiarity. You know, it's it's powerful. Well, I'm thinking in my own context. It's p really powerful to have your infant baptized. Sorry. I know the Book of Mormon says it's an abomination, but it's powerful to have your infant baptized because you've seen 50 baptisms. If you'd never seen a baptism and you just walked into your church and suddenly your minister took your baby and, you know, started doing things and walking around with it, it'd be a little off-putting. So, um,

>> Tradition, tradition.

>> You know, it's it's tradition and familiarity and repetition. And I think that's that is one reason why I think for some Latter-day Saints the endowment ceremony becomes more meaningful, uh, with repetition, and why it could be so, um, you know, maybe uncomfortable for some people the first time, but, you know, um, I'm sure there's just a massive range of emotions. We may need or want to break the Relief Society out episode out into a separate episode because I, I do want to just ask a couple more questions and also just to make one point because I think this is valuable stuff worth talking about. So I appreciate your patience, Sean Turner. I was sitting next to my stepbrother the other day. I was at a a Hail Theater performance of, uh, Frozen, and my stepbrother, um, you know, he's a faithful Latter Day Saint, he and his wife, uh, Carol. And I'm like, "Hey, what are you up to, Robin?" And he's like, "Oh, well, I, I'm a temple worker now." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Cool. What do you do?" And this guy's super smart. Um, super good, kind. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm a sealer in the temple." And I, uh, I seal people, uh, I seal living people in marriage, and I seal dead couples in marriage, and I seal living people to dead people. And he's like, "I do it, I do two shifts a week, and I work, you know, 10 plus hours a week in the temple." And he says, "It's the most beautiful, important, spiritual part of his life." And when he enters that Draper Temple, he feels like he's entering his own home, interacting with the best people in the world, doing the most important divine work he could possibly do. And again, this is not a dumb guy. This is a super smart, kind, charitable, good-hearted guy. And that's how he spends his leisure time, performing sealing ceremonies for living and dead people in a Mormon temple as part of the endowment and ceiling ceremony. And all of that is a legacy of Joseph Smith and what he's doing in Nauvoo in 1842. It's affecting people's lives today in very, very meaningful ways.

>> No, that's absolutely true. And it also speaks to the fact that the the same things can affect people's lives in all sorts of different ways. I I often think about that issue of of remix. Um, one, you know, one thing, if you, if you don't mind a little digression.

>> I love it.

>> Um, so I teach a class that is an introduction to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in a single semester. And well, and none of these are particularly creative, um, approaches. Um, but one of the things that we do is we look at some intersections between different texts and traditions. So we look at the fact that the, um, ancient Babylonian flood myths probably influenced the Book of Genesis flood account. And then much later in the semester, we look at the fact that, um, there is a lot of biblical and extra-biblical, uh, inspiration for portions of the Quran. Now, that can often be really uncomfortable for some believing Christians, maybe some believing Jews, less commonly. Certainly uncomfortable for, uh, Muslims to look at some of those, uh, intersections, though the Quran itself, you know, provides also provides an explanation. Um, then, uh, also early in the semester, we've taken a look at those first two chapters of the Book of Genesis, which Christians historically and and many Jews have translated as, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Period. And then the earth is a formless void, you know, the there's water. Um, there's there's wind. Now, often translated, "In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void, and there was darkness and water." So it basically gets to that question of, does God create everything out of nothing, or does God bring order and form out of chaos and formlessness? And I'm not a Hebrew scholar, so I don't really try to resolve the Hebrew. But I often tell my students, look, whether or not God created this world out of nothing, or God created this world out of pre-existing stuff, or whether or not this world has come to be in some other way, if you look at the world, it's absolutely beautiful and stunning. And I try to use that as as a parallel then later, later in the class, you know, whether or not Moses just sat down and wrote the entirety of the Torah, or whether or not, uh, scribes in the fifth century brought together a bunch of traditions into what we have. These are still remarkable texts. Um, and I think, you know, you can you could have that same sort of discussion about the endowment ceremony. The positive things that you pointed to, they're there regardless of whether or not Joseph had this revealed to him directly from God, or whether he took a lot of inspiration from Freemasonry. And likewise, you know, that's true of things that, um, might be less likable. So, you know, I'm, I guess that's a long way of saying I'm comfortable with this idea of remix. I understand why it can be really challenging, uh, for people, uh, within traditions. Like, we'd all like to have our own, um, traditions get everything directly from God, but I just think there's there's usually, um, I think maybe always, there's just big chunks of complex humanity and messiness there. And, um, the fact that things change over time, I think on some level that's a reflection of the fact that over time, humans come to recognize some of that messiness and want to refine it.

>> Love it. That was beautiful. And and it puts prophets or leaders of religions in a tough spot because just like Joseph, they want to innovate. They want to improve. They want to develop and enhance new cool theology and ritual, but they and they want to be able to adapt and even improve things, but they also are stuck with having their believer their their their followers continue believing that what they previously did was of God. And even though they're changing it to something totally different, that was of God then, and this is of God now. So still believe that what we're doing is is ultimately inspired from God. Even though it's constantly changing, and that's just a tough sell. It's a tough tightrope to walk as a prophet or a religious leader.

>> It is really tough. Right. So, one of one of my favorite books on Mormon history is, uh, by Kathleen Flake, former Bushman Chair of Mormon Studies at UVA. She has this book titled "The Politics of American Religious Identity." It's about, among other things, the Reed Smoot trial, hearing in the early 1900s. Um, similarly, for a similar time period, Thomas Alexander's book "Mormonism and Transition" is also really good. I'm bringing this up because in the late 1800s, early 1900s, the LDS Church, you know, grudgingly and slowly divested itself of plural marriage, ended the gathering to Zion, Zion, and basically distanced itself from theocracy. Enormous shifts, and at the same time, had to preserve a sense of stability and permanence, uh, which it ultimately managed to pull off. Um, and that is that is tough.

>> Yeah. >> It's a bit of a tightrope and >> It's it's a tightrope. >> And if I could point us to what we're going to talk about next time.

>> Okay. Wait, I have a couple last questions about Freemasonry.

>> Go for it. Um, okay. So, how fair is it to say that in addition to the ritual and the promises of celestial glory and the fellowship of the saints and, um, all of that pageantry and mirth and ritual, and even the Book of Abraham plan of salvation stuff? Yes to all that in Joseph Smith incorporating Freemasonry into, um, an early endowment. If there's a pie chart, how much of it also was Joseph needing a mechanism of enforcing secrecy amongst followers that he needed to stay quiet about polygamy because if it got out, it would be an existential threat to him and the church? If there were a pie chart of how much the incorporation of masonry was to help keep secrets, what, what percentage would you give that slice of the pie? I know it's an impossible question, but is it significant? Is it significant in your mind?

>> Yeah. So, >> It shows up thinking, how do I keep this secret? How do I keep polygamy secret? Masonry plus endowment will help keep polygamy secret to help keep me and my church alive or not. Am I making that up, or do you have any guess?

>> Yeah. So, that's such a good question. So, I actually see it more in Joseph's instructions to the Relief Society.

>> Okay.

>> When it's or also organized in the spring of 1842, because Joseph is very explicit when he talks to the women about the need to keep keep things on the down low and in particular, even if there's iniquity or moral failures, to deal with that in a way that doesn't put it all before the world to see. So I see that I see that instruction in Masonic secrecy. I see that as as a very important theme in the organization of the Relief Society. The endowment ceremony, I'm actually, I don't think keeping a lid on polygamy, although the lid is being cracked open at exactly the same time. I don't see that as a primary motivation, and there's a couple of reasons for that. Um, there are at least, you know, Joseph at first initiates nine men, um, into what becomes known as the endowment. He hasn't told, uh, all of them, namely his brother Hyrum Smith. He hasn't told all of them about plural marriage. So at least Hyrum is still, um, in the dark.

>> As far as we know. Is it possible he told Hyrum, but we just don't know that he told Hyrum?

>> Or is it pretty clear Hyrum didn't know about polygamy? I think spring of 1842.

>> I think it's pretty clear he doesn't because Joseph has Brigham Young tell Hyrum about it a year later.

>> Okay.

>> And Brigham has to bring Hyrum around on the point. So I I don't think so. I think also these other men like Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Willard Richards, Newell K. Whitney, um, I think Joseph Joseph has pretty clear bonds of trust, uh, with them.

>> Now, >> what percentage of those nine men did? How do we know how many of those men did know about polygamy?

>> So all of those apostles did? I have to check.

>> At the time in in >> So only Hyrum.

>> Everyone but Hyrum was a polygamy confederate by by this point.

>> I think. So, I'd have to I'd have to look at the list of the nine.

>> I mean, Newell K. Whitney definitely become, you know, he he's definitely, um, in the know soon, but probably already knows. Um, the apostles absolutely. Brigham Young's already proposed plural marriage to young one young woman by this point. Um, I think I would say more generally, Joseph very much by this point likes the idea of having a small circle of men that he can trust. Certainly for some of those about polygamy, he also is quickly going to find himself under siege. So, the lid's blown off of, um, polygamy by John C. Bennett just, uh, really a month, six weeks after what we've talked about today. And some of those who are, um, initiated, uh, into the endowment in May of 1842, they comment, it's either Willard Richards or Heber C. Kimball. They comment later that summer that despite everything, Joseph feels safe because essentially he has a small group of men he can trust. I think he just liked he sort of liked that vibe. And you can see Joseph repeat this, um, a couple of years later when he forms the Council of 50. And by that point, you have a much larger, uh, group of men and women who have been initiated into the endowment. And so now you see Joseph again creating yet another group, um, swearing them to secrecy. Um, I think he just, he liked the idea of, let's keep bringing people into a, you know, smaller inner circle.

>> Okay. So while it's, let me just restate. So while it's true that at least the majority, if not almost all of those early endowment participants were in the inner polygamy circle, uh, with the exception of Hyrum. What you think is most going on here is Joseph wanting and needing to create an inner circle of trust with his closest trusted friends.

>> Correct. And that and the endowment, that was a big motivating force in Joseph's mind and heart for the creation and evolution of the endowment ceremony.

>> Yes.

>> Is that right?

>> Yeah. And I do think, you know, I also do take Joseph's theology here seriously. I mean, I do think, as I said, I think throughout the Nauvoo period, he's he's sort of figuring out and teaching, what do men have to do on earth in order to achieve the highest degree of celestial power and glory? This is part of that answer. And he, I mean, if you wanted to put it in really sort of, um, I don't know, loose terms, he's sort of trying it with these nine men and then rolling it out to a somewhat larger group of men and then women, uh, a year later. And in this, in the spring of 1842, origination of the endowment ceremony inspired by Masonry, is there this idea of sealing, sealing people to each other, sealing people for eternity together, sealing families together, or is Joseph not incorporating that in the original, uh, endowment?

>> Not in the original.

>> Interesting. Interesting. So that's interesting.

>> So the following spring is when you can first find Joseph clearly teaching that, um, men and women need to be sealed in marriage in order to achieve exaltation. Um, so he may have well have articulated that as he introduced, um, plural marriage in 1841 and 1842. You can find that clearly taught by the by the next year.

>> Okay. So, John Turner, thanks for your patience with this. Um, really quickly, a couple more questions. Uh, I, I'll ask you in a second about the broader Masonic leadership and community in the state of Illinois. But, you know, Joseph is Joseph is is creating this endowment ceremony with people who are already Masons before he invites them to learn about and participate in the original Mormon endowment. Do we know what these existing Masons thought about Joseph performing? I don't know if the word is remix, or brickage. Joseph adapting, changing, and incorporating, and some might say bastardizing or perverting this sacred secret Masonic ceremony into his religious ritual. Were his peers concerned? And then I, I want you to answer whether Illinois Masonic leadership caught wind of this and whether it ends up being a concern for them.

>> So, great questions. Uh, and I don't know if I have the full, I don't have the full scoop at the forefront of my brain, um, to answer the question really well. But yes, let me sort of speak to the second half of that first. What the Mormons in Nauvoo do with their lodge does raise eyebrows. Um, in part, as I mentioned before, it becomes by far the largest lodge in Illinois, and they're not doing everything, uh, by the book. For instance, uh, Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, uh, they shouldn't have advanced, um, right after being initiated as apprentice Masons. They shouldn't have advanced the next day to the degrees of fellow craft Mason and then master Mason. Then you have hundreds of men join the lodge in short order. I forget what it maxes out at. I think more than a thousand men. And once, um, once there's all sorts of scandal about, uh, John C. Bennett on the one hand, but Joseph's own activities, uh, in Nauvoo, and there is, you know, some, um, you know, there are some exposees of the endowment ceremony in in Nauvoo. Uh, there's a lot of criticism, uh, directed at the Nauvoo Lodge. I think the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge, uh, loses its dispensation, uh, from the Illinois Grand Lodge, uh, a few years later. I'm not 100% sure about that, but yes, um, the Mormon Masonry, uh, does raise objections from other Masons.

>> And do we know? I've heard some allege that Joseph's ultimate martyrdom, his killing in Carthage jail, was at least inspired by some Illinois Masons that didn't like the fact that he was changing or altering the temple ceremony. And a a an accompanying question would be, if Richard Morgan can get killed for divulging Masonic secrets, why wouldn't people be equally alarmed? And why wouldn't this be equally dangerous for Joseph to be bastardizing and then remixing and then sharing Masonic rituals in his weird, you know, derivation of the Masonic ritual from their point of view? Why wasn't that dangerous for Joseph to do? Why didn't this threaten his life, you know, from the perspective of of Masonic leaders throughout Illinois and elsewhere?

So that's a fantastic question, and there have been, there certainly have been authors who have alleged that, uh, sort of Masonry was a contributing factor in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Um, here's my own sense is that, and, you know, we'll talk about this down the road, the people who were the prime movers in Joseph's death in June of 1844, they were not primarily upset about, um, his Masonic activities or divulging or adaptation of Masonic ritual. Um, these were men who had become Joseph's avowed political enemies, uh, in the early 1840s in Hancock County, Illinois. Um, they didn't really need Masonry as an additional motive to want to kill him. I think it's it's fairly well known that when, uh, Joseph falls out of, um, the window of Carthage jail, um, you know, his last words are the beginning of the Masonic cry of distress, "Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?" And I don't think, I mean, it, I sort of think it's reasonably documented that Joseph may have uttered the beginning of that. Definitely, you know, fraternal bonds were not going to save Joseph from his political and legal opponents in June of 189 in 1844. But I don't think that, um, Freemasons on the basis of Freemasonry were conspiring to kill him.

>> Okay. Okay. Um, thanks for answering, uh, thanks for answering that as well. Um, all right. Well, I think I think I'd rather have this episode be, um, self-contained because we're pretty much at two hours and I don't want to shortchange the formation of the Relief Society. And so let's just tie it up and just ask, what else do you think is worth mentioning about the Masonic Lodge in Nauvoo, the early emergence of the of the endowment ceremony, um, and Joseph Smith during, uh, you know, the 1842 spring time period? Anything else you want to mention before we talk about next episode?

Yeah, I mean, I would say for me, it's an example of the way that Joseph Smith creatively engaged with the culture that was around him. Now, I think sometimes in ways that were a little bit more artful and sophisticated than others. I mentioned we talked before about, um, you know, Cain perhaps being a master Mason, but that wasn't, you know, maybe that's not the absolute most, um, sophisticated use of of source material. I do think for, uh, for Joseph in 1841, 1842, Masonry is a catalyst for his development of theology and ritual. And after sort of the mid mid-1800s, Masonry again becomes something that seems very esoteric, that might seem a bit scandalous. Um, in 1842, when Joseph introduces, you know, when Joseph supports the lodge, people of Nauvoo enthusiastically, uh, support it. Now, that's in part simply because Joseph is endorsing it, and, you know, I think to some extent, whatever Joseph was going to endorse in 1842, his people were going to were going to embrace. But I think there is a, you know, there's a palpable enthusiasm, um, in response, uh, to Joseph. Um, there's not, um, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of criticism at the time. It's it's something that his people embrace, uh, that he uses creatively. Um, a lot of the scandal, uh, comes comes later.

>> And on the one hand, a lot of critics of the church want to say, well, look, Joseph just, he just plagiarized stuff. He gets three degrees of glory from Swedenborg, and he gets, um, you know, he gets his ideas from all, he gets the temple ceremony from the Masons, and he gets, you know, a bunch of the Book of Mormon from Isaiah. He's just plagiarizing and incorporating. He's, you know, clearly a fraud. On the other hand, where are prophets going to get ideas and innovations from if not from their surrounding culture? So another person could say, of course he's influenced by and inspired by the things that surround him. What, what say ye, John Turner, about this Terrell Gibbons notion that one of the best things about Joseph Smith was that he was, I think in Terrell Gibbons's words, an inspired syncretist, >> or he engaged in bricolage? Do do you, John Turner, see that as not only a feature but as an inevitable reality of being a human being, prophet or not?

So I, I guess I'm sort of two minds on this one. So, and again, if I could do an analogy, so a lot of, uh, Jews and Christians over the centuries have criticized or lampooned the Quran as plagiarizing the Bible and therefore not of value. And, you know, especially if you're an outsider, that seems a, you, it seems sort of a funny standard for other traditions that they have to be totally original. And so while I do think, for instance, the Quran makes use of say, the Joseph narrative and the Moses narrative from the Book of Genesis, the Quran recasts those stories in ways that are theologically creative, and it kind of makes them, um, makes them belong to a new tradition as well. And so I'm broadly sympathetic to, um, that sort of religious creativity. I don't think it's really something that traditions need to run away from. In the case of of Joseph, you know, sometimes I think the counter side to this or the other side to this is some claims that instead of sort of foregrounding that cultural engagement, you know, claim something that's more direct revelation. So, for instance, the Book of Mormon, I see that as Joseph's creative engagement with the Bible and with his own culture, you know, Joseph propos >> Do you think it's disrespectful to call that fanfiction?

>> No, I don't. I mean, okay. So, that's flippant, but I don't think it's wrong. Um, but but, you know, Joseph, Joseph didn't, wasn't of course not going to say for a number of reasons, "I'm going to do some fanfiction," right? No, he's he's claiming he got this directly from God, essentially. Um, and with say, the Book of Abraham, Joseph's claiming he got this somehow, that this is on the papyri. So I don't have any, you know, any problem living with a lot of ambiguity, remixing, cultural engagement, catalyst for creativity. I think all of those things are true. I think what's what's harder in the case of Joseph Smith is you, you can't, you can't necessarily square that with some of his own claims because it's harder to, it's harder to roll out new scriptures and rituals as, "This is my creative engagement with pre-existing tradition in my culture," rather than, "This is a revelation. These are on golden plates. These are from papyri."

>> And that seems to be the great pivot that the Mormon church is trying to make in the 21st century. It was very clear that the Book of Abraham prior in the 18th in the 19th and 20th centuries, we all knew what the Book of Abraham was as Mormons. It was a papyrus written by the hand of Abraham that Joseph translated into English. In the 21st century, the Mormon church now, I don't know if it's a slight of hand or a pivot, but now they're saying, "Forget Egyptian, forget translation." We don't even know what the word translation means. Somehow Joseph produced the Book of Abraham text as revelation. And the papyrus was used as a catalyst for inspiration. And it's kind of the same thing with the Mormon temple ceremony. Prior to 1990, we all knew that the temple ceremony as Mormons was revelation from God, an ancient ceremony that Solomon and David performed in the temple that Joseph restored, and it was the one true temple ceremony, and we had never really heard of Masons. Now in the 21st century, it's sort of like, "Hey, we got rid of all that Masonic stuff. We're we're making a gazillion changes. And it's the covenants and the Christ stuff that's important to the endowment ceremony. Everything else was just ways that Joseph delivered the important stuff." But, you know what is revelation anyway? It's this, it's this ongoing pivot that the church is having to make. Basically, as we've already outlined, we're still prophets. This is still God's work. And yes, we're gutting and changing and reinterpreting words to mean totally different things to sort of bridge to bridge the 19th and 20th centuries with the 21st century and the emergence of scholarship and the internet. Right?

>> That is a tough task. I would not want to lead a church.

>> I don't either in the internet age.

>> I will leave that to others. So, um, maybe as a closing note that we'll look ahead to next week's subject, um, Willard Richards in early 1842, he writes a letter to his wife, and he says this, "The grand secret of the gospel is for us to live by every word of the Lord, to live by revelation, present revelation. Do what God requires of us and not what he required of somebody else." So that principle that we might be doing things based on today's revelation, which is not what was revealed not just a thousand years ago, but 100 or 10 years ago. That's a principle that Joseph Smith was teaching in 1842. And a way, a way to make sense of change by foregrounding the authority of current prophets.

>> So does that is that connected to the discussion of the emergence of the Relief Society or something else?

Well, it's connected to the emergence of, you know, Joseph's teaching about polygamy in 1842, uh, which is something that has to be addressed at least as far as rumors go in the earliest Relief Society meetings.

>> Yeah. And so that's, yeah. If if I had to sort of tell people what's in store in the next episode, it's sort of like, yes, it's the formation of the Relief Society in Nauvoo, Illinois, but it's also an exploration of to what extent a key drive, a key driver in the formation of the Relief Society was not only to have a female version of Mormon Masonic ritual and the priesthood, by the way, Uh, was was the Relief Society originally a female version of Mormon priesthood, which I think your book seems to argue that it kind of might have been, an extension of the priesthood offered to and through women? But then also to what extent was all of that Relief Society business motivated by Joseph's desire to keep secrets and to manage the possibly explosive practice of polygamy in Nauvoo? Fair?

>> Well, fair. And we'll definitely have our hands full.

>> Okay. Well, that's what next episode's about. Well, John Turner, as always, our our episodes are like children that create baby new episodes. We think we're done with a chapter. We thought we were done, uh, with chapter 24, and yet chapter 24, as as we can quote Al Pacino, pulls us back in. It looks like chapter 24 is going to have three episodes instead of one, or two. I think I don't think you'd be ideally suited to be a rigorous book editor. I think they'd get, I think they'd get too long. So,

>> Well, for better or for worse, that's what Mormon Stories is about is trying to go in depth. And I think we've done that today, and you've been very patient. So, thank you, John Turner, for your generosity with me and my audience in allowing us to really go deep. The people that are listening to this episode just keep telling me how much they love it. So, uh, I hope you're getting the same feedback.

>> I, I get a lot of nice feedback. I love having these conversations. Um, I love it when people email, when people comment, and I really appreciate people listening, subscribing, uh, supporting. I think this is, you know, this this series, and certainly today's episode, it shows there, you know, we're only talking about really 17 years of history from when Joseph sort of bursts onto the scene with the golden plates until his murder. There's so much that takes place. A lot of it's really complex. There's a lot of things to untangle. There's a lot that we know. There are also some unknowns. So, it, yeah, it, it takes time and and care to sift through all of it and try to make some of that history, uh, make sense to us, uh, almost 200 years later.

>> Well, thanks again, John, for your excellent scholarship and your generosity with us. And we look forward to next episode.

>> You got it. Thank you, John Delin.

>> And thanks our viewers and listeners for joining us today on Mormon Stories with the Joseph Smith podcast. Please buy this book for yourself and friends and family, your bishops, your stake presidents, your missionaries. Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John G. Turner. Thanks to all those who donated to Mormon Stories and to this, uh, series. If you value this content, you want to see it continue, go to donorbox.org/josephsmith, org/josephsmith, become a monthly donor, and, uh, we are paying John Turner for his participation, and your donations make that possible. Uh, we love your comments. Please comment in the YouTube comments on this episode. We read everyone. We love it when Dan Bogle and Ganesha and all these other great viewers and listeners and scholars and and amateurs give us their points of view. Please comment. Please email us at mormonstories@gmail.com. I forward those emails on to John. Please like and subscribe. We're trying to hit 300,000 YouTube subscribers. Please subscribe to this channel. Um, and, uh, just mostly thanks for, uh, your support, everybody. Uh, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another another episode of the Joseph Smith podcast and on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.