Transcription
So I avoid all the labels as you mentioned. I avoid the labels of Calvinism. Get out of here, right? Yeah. I just want to believe whatever scripture says. Amen. So anything in scripture. So if you heard my answer, it would have just been quoting a passage of scripture. Okay. Which the word "predestined" does appear in scripture, right? Right. So I guess if, if you're, if the offense was in that I quoted passages of scripture, that's, I think we have to deal, be able to deal with all these texts, even if it may challenge our understanding of who we've always thought God is. Amen. Not that it goes against that, it just maybe just enriches our view of God. Because I think as Christians, when we get saved, we have a kind of view of God, but then as we mature, we get a bigger and richer grasp of who God is. Would you agree with that?
Yeah, I think through, through prayer and meditation on God's word, that can definitely, yeah, be the case for, for anyone who, who, you know, knocks and, and of course, it'll be answered to him. But looking at the scripture itself, for God so loved the world, and the, the, uh, the comparison or the, um, the comparison I wanted to use. Well, let's say there was, let's say you were at a job and you're working at your job, and you probably shouldn't date your co-workers. Um, but let's say there was a really pretty girl that you liked, and she was just so beautiful. You loved her character, you loved talking to her. She's really interesting and funny, and you guys have great conversations, and you start developing a liking for her. And eventually, you guys go on a date, and you know, it was a really great day. You had fun. And you know, many, many dates go on, and eventually you start to love this girl, like she's really just super supportive, and she's godly, and, and she's that Proverbs, I forget it's the Proverbs, I forgot the verse, but one woman, there you go, yeah, exactly. She builds her house. I mean, she, she's really godly. And you're just, you eventually start loving her. I don't think it's loving to say, "I don't care what you say, you're gonna be my girlfriend, and we're gonna get married," even if you don't want to. Like, you're going to be my girlfriend. I, I just don't think that that is my definition of love.
Now, a lot of people say, "Well, God's love, God is love." And I think, yes, God did love us because he does love us, and that's his character. However, that's why he sent his son, Jesus. But just the idea of, I, I think I agree with you, right? Of course, in scripture, predestination, the word election is there, and that's undeniable. The, yeah, I think we got, we gotta deal with it. Coming from, based, based off of what I just said, where you coming? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I just think this, that I don't think God has to show the same love to everyone. Like, he's not under compulsion to show the exact same love to every single human being. Would you agree with that?
Um, what makes you say that? So, what I'm saying is that, um, God can choose to love one person more than he can love another person, and it's not wrong for him to do that. Would you agree?
Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I love my wife more than I love other women. And that's based off of what? Means? But by what merit? I mean, I'm, when you say that, I think of Romans, uh, there is neither Greek nor Jew, nor man nor woman, but all are one in Christ Jesus. That's kind of where I'm coming from on that. But what, so not, so I'm not saying God, not in terms of God showing favoritism, but just in terms of God saying, "I just want to choose to love one and not, and not more, more than loving someone else," just based on his will, not because of something in the person, but just because he wants to, his his own choosing. Um, it's why God chose Abraham. Why God chose Abraham? He wasn't, he wasn't more faithful than anyone else. He wasn't a bigger nation. Wasn't nothing about him. It was just because God wanted to choose to set his love upon Abraham. He didn't choose it for other, other people. And even when he talks about Jacob, "I've loved Esau, I've hated." God could have loved Jacob and Esau the same, but he chose to say, "I'm going to love Jacob more than I'm going to love Esau." And that's not wrong.
Really quickly, just like about that point, from what I've read, I think he was talking about the nation. Like, there's a prophecy of, like, when you're talking about, like, the, I think you're referencing, "there are two nations in your womb," and, and one of them will conquer the other. I, I was pretty sure he was talking about the nation, but maybe, maybe you can clear that up for me.
So, no, when, how Paul uses it, he's not referring to as the nation, but either way, even if it was referring to the nation, that's still God loving one nation more than another, and God can do that. Doesn't have to love every nation the same, right? But how Paul uses it, he doesn't refer to it as a nation. He refers to it as the individuals. He says, verse, go verse 10, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born, nor had done anything either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls," she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." How Paul's using it and quoting from the Old Testament, he's referring to it as the individuals, and not based on what they would do, just based on God's purpose of election. He chooses to love one and not, and hate the other. And, and God can do that. God doesn't have to show equal love to everyone. In fact, and a good example of that is that he doesn't even allow everyone to hear the gospel. Would you agree? Everyone gets to hear the gospel? People who, I mean, maybe in my opinion, people who are like super hardened in their heart, just really stuck in their ways, maybe, maybe I'm wrong. But I agree. It's not even that. It's not even because they're more stuck in their ways than I was or someone else. No, I think we're all stuck in our ways. Like, we're all stubborn and resistant to believe. I mean, but it's just that God just doesn't have to offer his salvation to certain people.
Okay. Um, do you think, do you think we're owed the message of the gospel? Um, based off of scripture? I mean, you know, his, well, because, because I mean, it says that, you know, it was his, uh, not it was his will that none should perish, but all should come to the, or all should come to, uh, repentance. And that's in second Peter chapter 3:9. And he actually mentions, "God is patient toward you." The audience is writing to, so like, his children.
Well, if you see how Peter, Peter starts off his letter, Peter actually starts off in 1 Peter 1:1 by saying, "To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion." So he's writing to the elect, okay? He's not willing that any of them should perish. They will actually all come to repentance. That's why, um, Christ hasn't returned, because there's still more people to get saved that God wants to be saved. And then at the right time, Christ will return. Um, but I think God could have offered salvation to no one, and he'd be perfectly in that. Would you agree?
Yeah, that kind of, that that makes sense. We don't deserve salvation. We all, we just deserve hell. That's all we deserve for our sins, right? Right. We don't deserve our offer of forgiveness. So then in God's kindness, he can choose to offer mercy to those whom he wants to show mercy, right?
I, I would just, I, I, I agree with the latter end where you, with the scripture, but with the, the, the earlier end where it says like, where what you said, I, I'm just having trouble. And, and I, I really love how you started the conversation, which, which part did you just, which part exactly? Which is, it's just that, like, you know, that because, okay, again, using, using very, uh, worldly examples to explain spiritual things. Um, and, uh, like you said, I just want to say that I really do agree. I want to find the truth. I don't care about what men say, what preacher says this, preacher says that. I want the truth. I really love that. That. So, so did you, just before you give, you did you disagree with the point that God can choose to show or offer this mercy, the salvation to some and not others? Is that what you disagreed with?
Or I, in the grand scheme of things, not that he can't. I just think when it comes to the gospel and salvation itself, I think it, I think it twists things. And I think it, I don't really know how to describe, but I, it looks like it's just meaningless, right? It kind of gives no meaning to the whole plan of God's salvation for men. It kind of just takes like all the.
I don't think it's actually, actually, it adds value in that God accomplishes all that he sets his word out to do, right? God's word does not return void, as scripture says. Um, and if, if you agree with the point that God doesn't have to offer salvation to anyone, then you shouldn't have a problem with God offering that salvation to some and not all. Because if no one deserves to have the offer of salvation, then you shouldn't complain that some miss out on hearing about it.
Well, even then, I think that, like, you used them, I mean, this isn't, I don't know if it directly correlates, but you used the, just, I think, just two, just two guests ago, you said that, you know, we have the law written in our hearts. And I think just by that, like, going off what Hebrews says, you know, I think it's Hebrews 11, I'm pretty sure. Um, as you can tell, I'm not super strong scripture, or not, not memorization of the numbers and the, uh, the verses and chapters. But Hebrews, Hebrews 11 gives that, that little, um, kind of the Hall of Fame, if you will. And of course, Jesus wasn't there. And I think it solely depends on, you know, putting your faith in the only true God. And I think that, like, having that law written in our hearts. For instance, I want to go talk about what's, what's that guy, uh, there was a guy, I think it was, was it a Roman Centurion or somebody who feared God? And he said, "Thy arms." It was in Acts. "Thy arms have come up before God." Acts 10. You got Cornelius. Yeah, Cornelius. And, and there we see him trusting in God, trusting in that. Not only, I think it started off with the, the, the conscience that we have against evil, but then also, it, it grew to him trusting in God, right? Where do that conscience come from? Where does this guilt come from? Trusting in God. And then I think, like, God, you know, is going to give him that opportunity. Obviously, we, he was, it was Cornelius who went and preached to him? Or, uh, Peter? Peter went. Peter. Peter. Sorry. Peter was, yeah, yeah. So, but notice that even that, you see it's God. God giving a unique opportunity to Cornelius to hear the gospel, which he doesn't give to everyone. Think of even the Apostle Paul. He was, before he was saved, he was hating Christ. He, he was trying to cause Christians to blaspheme, dragging them to prison, things like that, sending them to their death. So then Paul wasn't willing to be converted. He wasn't like, "I've got this great love for God." He's, he, God had to actually just blind him to make him willing. So God can do that. If God ultimately wants everyone to be saved, God would do the same experience. He can do with Paul, blind him, and therefore that caused Paul to come to his senses and be like, "What am I doing rebelling against the one who has so much power over me, Jesus Christ?" And God could preach the gospel from the clouds if he wanted to. He could have everyone know it just by preaching from the clouds, but he doesn't give that opportunity to everyone. In some ways, you can actually be an act of mercy because if someone hears the gospel and they reject it, they get greater punishment, right? So God could be, because maybe God didn't have an intention in saving somebody, not allow that person to hear the gospel so that their punishment in hell will not be as severe. That could be a reason why God is allowing that to occur.
I, I would say that that goes against God's character, though, because I believe God's just. If God's just, if he's a just God, then that doesn't sound just, in my opinion, logically. Um, but justice means you getting what you deserve for the crimes that you've done, right? We, justice means you and I going to hell. That's justice. That's fairness. Everyone going to hell is what is justice and fairness. It's not unjust if God chooses to show mercy to some and not others. Not, and he's not compromising his justice in the process, because obviously Christ satisfies justice on our behalf. Um, but that's, that's Paul's whole point in, as he continues after he just said in verse 13, "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated," that raises the question, "That sounds unjust." That's what Paul says, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part?" "By no means." Now, Paul doesn't undo what he's just said, he actually just goes a bit further. He says, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I have compassion on whom I have compassion.'" So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. So the overarching reason is not even our will, it's not our actions, it's just God and who he chooses to have mercy on. And that doesn't mean everyone doesn't have to be everyone, then, right? Based on the context.
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, you're right. Um, there was, there, I guess there's just like roadblocks. I, I, I, I really guess I'm either being stubborn. Um, but I really just, I don't know. I think, you know what it is? Yeah. Do you know what maybe the roadblock? I think people have a view of God that is somewhat based on scripture, but not entirely based on scripture. They think God is, we know God is love, scripture says that. But how he must be loving is how I want him to be loving, and how the world tells me him he's loving, and how maybe certain preachers tell me he's loving, rather than how does the Bible tell me he's loving? And his love isn't the only attribute he has. He has the attribute of justice and wrath and all those sort of things. But once we realize God owes me nothing, nothing good. All he, all he owes me, I guess, is wrath and hell and punishment. Nothing good. Then if God wants to send everyone to hell, he's perfectly just. If God wants to send half the people to hell, half people to heaven, he's perfectly just. And amazingly loving that he's saving half of the people. That's incredible. If he saved one, one person, I would just be like, praising God for eternity that you saved one person. But he's saving, he's saving countless. And so I don't think we should think it's wrong or unjust if God doesn't have an intention of saving the others, okay? Because no one deserves it. Scripture backs up what you're saying. Scripture backs up what you're saying. Exactly.
Um, where, where I guess the crux of it is, is the free will aspect of it. I mean, you just talked about, I mean, the guest before me, you just talked about, you know, Adam and Eve in the garden, and, you know, they had free will then. Where, where do you stand on free will? I mean, how does that incorporate?
I just don't think that that, because I think it takes the meaning out of it. It takes all the meaning out of it. All the meaning out of our will. I mean, it's not my will, it's not, not my will be done, but yours, yours. But, but I, I just don't, again, I, the crux, I know I'm super stubborn. I'm sorry. I just, I really feel.
That's fine. That's fine. The same reason why God didn't ask for my consent for me to be, be born and be created. He did not ask for my consent. He just made me because he didn't need my consent. He doesn't even need my consent for me to be saved either. He could save me without my consent because he's the one in control, not me. Now, what God does is that he does make it based on faith that we receive the gift of salvation. He didn't have to make it that way, but that's what he's chosen to do. But the reason I have faith is because of God, and not for me. So, so from my perspective, I had to choose to believe the gospel. I had to hear it, and I had to make the choice to believe. So yes, 100%. I could choose or I could reject. But if I have come to choose to trust in Christ, it's not because that really originated with me. It really originated with God, who loved me and granted that repentance to happen to me, that change of mind that caused me to have faith. So the passage I think it's quite relevant to this is second Timothy chapter 2 verse 24. It says, "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth." So it's up to God whether he perhaps grants them repentance.
Okay. Um, I don't want to take too much of the time. I know there's other people waiting in line. I, I do, um, but, um, I guess, I guess my question is, is when we, when we preach the gospel to people, we're sharing with people. Um, I, okay, like for instance, I, if I was to ask you, you know, hey, if you were to die today, are you 100% sure you're going to heaven? You would say 100%. Amen. Amen. Exactly. Well, how do you know you're chosen? How do you know?
Yeah, because the only people who do believe cling to it. And I'm like, huh. It's like, I don't think that's a worry. That's sometimes people worry. I don't think that should come up in our mind as, "How do I know I'm chosen or not?" Because the only people who can believe are those who are chosen. Therefore, the fact that I believe is evidence I'm chosen. And therefore, if the, I guess that should reassure me more. The fact that God has granted me that change of mind, that that repentance that brought me to faith in Jesus, therefore, "He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." So it should just reassure you more in your faith and God's keeping you. Jesus says, "My sheep will hear my voice, and they'll come to me, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." And that's on the back of the people who he says, "You do not believe because you are not of my sheep." They weren't his sheep, that's why they rejected. But anyone who is a sheep believes, and God keeps them all the way to the end.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, do you feel like it adds, when you're sharing the gospel to people, do you feel like it kind of adds, kind of preconceived, like, "Hey, maybe this person I'm talking to right now is not chosen"? You know, you know, I, I don't know.
That doesn't come in my mind. It doesn't. Because, you know, because the reason it doesn't come up in my mind is because this, that person, even if he's really stubborn, might be like the Apostle Paul, who would have been the most stubborn person against Christianity before God saved him. And so I don't know who God's going to save. I just know that, like Paul says in second Timothy chapter, through chapter 2:10, I think he says, yeah, he says, "This therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." Do you see that? So you don't become of the elect when you believe. Paul is, Paul is saying here, there are people who are of the elect, and I'm doing everything to preach the gospel, even going through suffering in prison, for the sake of those people who are yet to believe, so that they can come to believe. And so since we don't know who the elect are, we just preach to everyone, knowing that the ones who respond are the ones who God is causing them to have that repentance, that change of mind, to believe the gospel.
Second Timothy 2:10. Oh, verse 10. Got you. Got you. Um, okay. Um, there was one more question. Question I had. Okay. Yeah. So I, I think that if someone never came to the knowledge of, of, um, this, this what you preached to me, which I'm really, I'm really grateful to hear these things, and I'm going to definitely, uh, continue considering it as a part of character, which I appreciate. Um, but let's say someone never came to the full, like, you know what, I do think God elected me. Which I guess would sound like kind of a work if I had to know that, right? Do you think I would have to know that to be saved?
You don't have to know that to be saved. Not, um, I just think it enriches your, it just, it just makes you give God more glory. I actually think it gives you, makes you want to praise God more because even your desire to believe, you're just going to say, "God, that was you. All glory to you. If it wasn't for you, God, I would just be in the pit of hell and just be choosing down my own, my sin and down that course of of depravity. But thank you, God, that you took me out of that. I didn't take myself out of that." That's almost giving a bit of credit to yourself if you thought, "If it was just all you." But if it's, if it's all God, like, all glory be, be to God. And it helps in evangelism so much. It helps in evangelism because it means you can pray for someone's salvation. If God didn't have involvement in granting repentance to people and so on, then you wouldn't pray for someone's salvation because God can't change their will, God can't change their heart. But scripture says God can. He takes out our heart of stone, gives us that heart of flesh, he makes us willing to believe. So therefore, that's why, um, prayer works with with evangelism. And I know that my evangelism, evangelistic efforts don't actually rest on me. If my, if this person's salvation rested entirely on me, and I presented it maybe pretty poorly one day, then I've messed up that guy's eternity because I didn't present the gospel as clear as I could have presented. And therefore, that's a lot of weight on my shoulders. I've condemned someone to hell because I wasn't.
I think that contradicts. I, I, I don't want to be like super direct or mean, but like, I think that contradicts, um, uh, those who are proclaiming to be teachers. Can you go to that first, please? You probably know what I'm talking about. Yeah. He, he, he certainly warns against people saying, "Oh, I'm a teacher." I've seen, I've witnessed it with my own eyes. People preaching works to other people. I'm just like, "Oh man, like, I just don't preach works to this person. Please stop." Yeah.
We read that. So it says, "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. But if, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body." So, and then goes on to talk about the tongue, how no one can control the tongue, right? The little fire sets on fire. Yeah, exactly. But this is not talking about evangelism. Teachers, this is becoming a pastor of a church, a teacher. I'm just talking about evangelism here. Everyone, every Christian is called to evangelize. Amen. And, and so if, if God didn't actually have control over salvation, if it was all just up to the person's individual will, then you sharing the gospel a lousy day because you maybe had a bad morning, you shared it pretty poorly and really confusingly to this person, they didn't understand it, so they went to, you're the one who ultimately has condemned them to hell because you had a bad morning. You've condemned the person to hell. Um, or if you chose not to open your mouth one day because you're too timid, and that was the only time they would have had an opportunity to hear the gospel, and they could have been saved. You didn't. You're responsible for that person going to hell for eternity. I'm glad I hold. I'm glad scripture tells us. I think that's false. Negative again. I'm sorry for taking so much time. But I think that's, I think that's, I don't want to be debating for too long. I, I really do. I really love getting to know your, your, uh, um, your viewpoint. Um, and I'm grateful for this because I get to know your viewpoint. But what I was trying to say was based on that, I think that that's kind of like setting it up in a way that's like, it's like, it's like setting it up. I think that that with that same scenario, I could have a terrible morning, preach the gospel very poorly, he doesn't really understand it, but then like, couple throughout his day, he's like, "Huh, what is that guy talking about?" And then he stumbles upon your channel and he hears the gospel and he gets saved. I mean, I don't think that necessarily that, like, I think, and talks about planting seeds. I mean, maybe the seed was like, you know, thrown somewhere in the soil on the way in, but hey, it's still, I threw the seed. And he calls us to go preach the gospel. He, like, for instance, he doesn't say, "Go out and get them saved." He just says, "Go preach the gospel." If I go out and preach the gospel with 10 people, and none of them get saved, as you probably agree, then I still did my job. I still did my evangelism. I still did. And again, no, no glory to me at all. All the glory goes to God. I understand. Gave the example. I think that's, yeah, when you gave the example of the seed, the seed, right? Yeah. That's linking up with First Corinthians chapter 3 verse 5. Paul says, "What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned each." Ah, so the Lord is assigning who's going to be the one who preaches the gospel to certain people, through whom that person will believe. God's intimately involved in salvation. If he wants someone saved, he's going to assign exactly the person who's going to be preaching the gospel, that guy to get him saved. And what it says, it says, "I planted, Apollos watered, but who gave the growth? God gave the growth." This is coming to salvation. God is the one who gives it. It's not up to the person. It's up to God whether he gives the growth, right? So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. So this is why it's so comforting that God has his people who will save, and I get to have a small part in that. I might be the guy who sows the seed. I might be the guy who waters the seed. But either way, God gives the growth. And even if I didn't present it as good as I should, one day, if God wants that person to be saved, he'll use that seed and then someone else to maybe clarify the confusion to bring that person to faith. So it's a huge weight off your shoulders. And yet, doesn't make you lazy. Doesn't say, "Ah, I don't have to evangelize." No, actually makes you. I find it makes me want to evangelize more because I know that my evangelism will be 100% successful. Not in that everyone becomes a Christian, they don't. But just that it'll accomplish what God wanted it to do, whether it be seed sowing to soften someone's heart, or it may actually just be to harden the person's heart. Either way, it's 100% successful. God's word has not returned void. God will be glorified in the end through it all. Right.
Yeah, wisely said. My, I, I, I, I've come to a better understanding of where you stand on this. That's all good. And just with the, with the first topic that you, you raised about with God's sovereignty, it took me two years to come to a change of mind about that. I was really, I was in the same boat. God has to do everything the same for everyone. Has to have equal opportunity. God can't have any involvement. I used to think that really adamantly. But what changed was not theologians. I couldn't care less. It was just the Bible. Amen. Just the Bible. I'm like, it says God grants repentance. It also says God grants faith. Like Philippians 1, uh, 29 talks about that. "It has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ, you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake." So my suffering for Jesus was granted from God, and also my believing in him was. And so I had to kind of change my mind from the view I had of God to have now a deeper, richer view of God based on all the different passages of scripture.
Okay. Yeah. Great, great testimony. And, uh, that's crazy. Two years. Wow. That's surprising to me. And, and that's, that's encouraging.