Transcription
Faith unites, but interpretation can divide. On this episode of The Bridge, conservative and liberal Christian women come together to discuss scripture, culture, and what it means to live out their faith today. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Da. Welcome to The Bridge. Welcome ladies. Thank you for being here. I'm going to have you go around and just introduce yourselves.
>> I'm Marian. I'm a Christian conservative.
>> Hi, I'm Audrey. I'm Christian and I'm a conservative.
>> I'm Jada. I'm a conservative Christian.
>> I am Janette, a conservative Christian.
>> I'm Savannah, a Christian conservative.
>> Hi, I'm Kyla. I'm a liberal Christian.
>> Hi, I'm Audrina. I am a Christian liberal.
>> Hi, I'm Cassandra. I'm liberal and Christian.
>> Hi, I'm Melinda and I'm a liberal Christian.
>> Hi, I'm Maya. I'm a Christian liberal.
Hello, I'm Tiffany and I am a Christian Democrat. Thank you for being here today.
The first prompt is there is a clear god-given definition of what it means to be a woman. Okay. So, anyone can share. Anyone who feels strongly about this can can share.
>> Well, I'll go. You know, I think to really define what a woman is, we got to go back to creation.
>> In Genesis 2:18, we see what God says that when he created a man, it literally says that it was not good for him to be alone. So, he said, I'm going to make a suitable helper for him. And the world usually uses helper as, well, the woman is secondary. She's not important. She's uh inferior. But actually that's not what the word means. It means ezar conneto in Hebrew, which is the one of the most powerful words that God even uses to describe himself. And we know this because in the Old Testament, that word Ezar appears 21 times, twice to describe women, three times military support, and 16 times to describe God being Ezar for Israel. This is why in Psalm 121 it says, "Where does my help Ezar comes from? My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth." And I love this because you see so many examples of this in the scripture. You see uh you see uh JL for example, God uses her to defeat Cicora who is a threat to Israel. You see Esther, God uses her to rescue the Jews from for a national deliverance. You see, um, so many of these women that are used to rescue, to strengthen. This is why only a woman can give birth. It's a hard thing to do. This is why a woman can see a situation and provide aid and help. She's not the weak link. The Bible says that he was lacking something. Therefore, he needed someone to complete him. She was needed. She was wanted. And therefore, God made her. She's not less. She completes. Come on and preach.
>> Amen.
>> Someone who said no.
>> I said no. Okay. Um, so I guess to address the no. Um, I think one of the things that we do with the Bible is that we engage in a lot of pure forms of isogesis. I think if you look at ancient Hebrew poetry and imbue science into it, I think you're doing a disservice to the Bible. I think it's wrong. Right. And I think what often happens when we're looking at Genesis like 1:27 about the making of a woman, we're wanting to build into that some sort of biological uh sexual imperative. Whereas when you look at the language even of here, there is a separate language, for example, between a female, which God made in Genesis 1:21, and a woman and wife. And so I think one of the worst things that we do as Christians is we participate in a pure form of isogesis where we try to see what we want that reinforces our worldview into the Bible and then weave intentions into the writers that they hadn't even considered. Right? And so when we talk about a woman, one of the biggest questions of nowadays like well what do we mean when we say woman? Do we mean a biological imperative female or do we mean some sort of like gendered expression? Right? These two things are connected but also separated even biblically. And so I think when I look at this, the reason I said no is I don't know what you guys mean when you say woman. But I know what a lot of people mean when they say women that are conservative, which is a biological female. I don't think that that's what the Bible's for. You don't use the Bible for science.
>> I I think I have to disagree with you because one thing that is confusing, you're saying, you know, specifying the difference between mentioning female versus wife versus mother. The fact is a wife and a mother are still female. Those are still those are types of women. So there's no separation there. It's just she is now a wife. She went from being a single woman to now being a wife. But that doesn't change the fact that she is a woman. Sure. Maybe I misspoke. So just to be clear, the word that I'm talking about here, there's two key words. There's isha and there's Although my pronunciation is I'm not I don't speak Hebrew, so I apologize for the the pronouncing. The nakiba is talking about a female, right? Right? That's what we see in Genesis 1:27. The wife woman is used to describe both women just generally and as wives, right? And yes, these things in Old Testament got combined because in many ways the only role of woman as the gender was as a wife in a lot of these ancient it was in these in these ancient civilizations. However, this is talking about woman. It's not just talking about wife. They use it to describe woman. And then when they say female, they use a
>> but there's no instance where a man is labeled as a wife. And that's also an artificial uh separation and distinction that the Bible does not make.
>> And I think that actually what you're sort of trying to do is impute your worldview onto the biblical text because there was never a distinction back then between wife versus female. Um I think when Genesis 1:27 states that me that God created them male and female, that's very clear. So to me, I mean, I think it's rather confusing. Um, also to your point that the only role of a woman um, in ancient culture was to be a wife is untrue. And I think um, as you so rightfully mentioned, Esther is a great example of a woman who was not only a wife but she was a queen used to advocate for her people. We see examples of Dborah in the Old Testament who was a judge uh, a ruler of Israel at the time um, and a prophetess not just a wife. So I think that um again those distinctions are not made in scripture and that was not the only role of a woman.
>> So I think the puroges Jesus that I'm talking about here is the scientific isoges Jesus where you're saying when they say woman they mean a biological female in the way that I mean a biological female. They didn't have these ideas. They didn't have a concept of sex versus gender. Right? You're doing the same thing that early ancient biblical cosmologists did to create the three tier universe of like firmament versus like an ocular disc. Right? We don't think that the world is flat, even though biblically there's strong arguments for believing it from a scientific perspective. But the issue is that's not what ancient Hebrew poetry is for. It's not for science.
>> So how do you interpret Genesis 1:27 then when God said he made male and female and what do you believe a woman to be according to the Bible?
>> Two sexes.
>> Gender and sex are different because in different cultures um what is normal for one gender is different from another gender. So gender roles, the socially social construct of gender is separate from the biological context of male versus female. That's why we use updated language like assigned female at birth versus male and female versus um it's just language is more expansive now as we um know more.
>> But the sorry just really quickly the the problem with that is that we know I agree with you gender is a social construct that was just constructed in the 60s. So prior to that, anytime you're hearing of a female and she's an adult, she is a woman. So us now deciding that there have to be all these other genders, doesn't it like separate the fact that throughout the Bible, if you hear of a woman, you're talking about an adult female human? That's it.
>> So yes, the term gender was coined in the 60s, but it was coined to describe a thing that emerged across societies consistently. We see femininities and masculinities, this is the way the actual empirics talk about it, emerge. If you look at Athenians versus Spartans, the Greeks, okay, Athenians believe that philosophy was the peak masculine form. Whereas Spartans, it's all about fighting and violence. In fact, the Spartans were so anti- like philosophy and all these types of thinking things, they wouldn't touch coins because they thought it was effeminate. But look at our culture today, right? One of the most masculine things a guy can do is to go into business and make money. Okay? Equal to the Spartans that man would have been emasculine right feminine in many ways but we don't view it that way this is the type of gendered constructs we're talking about yeah there is biological imperatives and that's obviously true I would never say that gender isn't downstream of sex but the issue is that if you look at all of history we see a consistent pattern of sex and then an emergent gender that does somewhat shift there are things that hold true universally and there are things that shift there's a reason why poetry was idealized by samurais in Japan. But if you go to Victorian era of like medieval ages, poetry is viewed, even now, look at poetry now, men think poetry is girly, right? Riding was a masculine Spartan action. It was the men that rode horses. Horsemanship and equestrianism is a girly thing. Unless you're a cowboy, this is the gender paradigm we're talking about. These are obviously socially emerging. I don't want to be like a back and forth, but I just I think that you are changing the conversation we're having into a conversation of gender roles and gender, you know, concepts that are attached to different genders. And what she asked is just does the Bible detail what a woman is? And does anyone want to speak to that particularly the God-given definition of what it means to be a woman? Is there something in the Bible that you can point to? The definition of a woman is biological. You're you're born a female. You are a female. Now, if you want to change yourself into a male, that's you're changing your gender, but you're not biologically a female. The seed is your biology. You are born a female. If you want to change it, fine. You know,
>> and I think the overall point is um we need to put things into context and we need to be mindful of what the impact of our um of being so caged into like the letter versus the spirit of the law of like what is that doing to people here in in present times of saying that um of saying like hey yes the Bible says um that the rib was taken from Adam and um Eve was created But and at the end of the day, what what are we doing to make sure that people of expansive genders are taken care of? And I guess that's probably kind of how this will go of just what's in the book versus like how are we living the values of the Bible, you know? And I always say that um the instead of the letter of the law, what does the spirit say? And so that's probably where I'm going to circle back to a lot of like what is the experience of how do you treat a trans person? And I know that maybe that is distracting from the prompt or anything but um integrating scripture into practice is what I'm all about. And how I want people to know that yes, maybe the Bible says this specifically, but we need to kind of think further and figure out like what how are people using this text and this language to
>> really care for others.
>> Yeah. To care for others or to add harm to others, you know. And I don't want to get on too much of a tangent, but um there's so many things that in the Bible that were used to kind of justify slavery and all those types of things. And it feels like if we are so focused on what the letter of the law says that we let this happen to the LGBTQI plus community where the same thing is happening to them then that makes me scared and makes me nervous and so um and like we can I don't want to say too much more because I don't want to like get off of the
>> I'm surprised no one uh Okay.
>> are go ahead.
>> Do you do you not think that it's harmful of what you're doing to the trans person like
>> what I'm I'm doing what am I doing?
>> Yeah. As us as as Christians, we're supposed to Yeah. You're reaffirming something that's false. You're not you're not you're not telling them the truth. I think that us as Christians, what we're called to do is
>> Well, I will say that I when I was a little kid, I had some gender dysphoria. And I feel like the people that quote the Bible verses and say like it's a man and the woman, most of those people like that tend to be more conservative would say, "Oh my gosh, like would vilify." But luckily my mom was like, "Hey, if you feel more masculine, hey, just wear masculine clothes." And then I was able to integrate that and just it's part of my identity. But at if you're kind of stuck in the binary and you're not able to lead with love and compassion, then a lot of times that's what leads to people killing themselves essentially. And at the end of the day, when it comes to evidence-based care for transgender youth, it starts with just letting them express themselves, be creative, and go outside of the gender roles. So, and many times it rarely gets to surgery if you go by the evidence-based practices in the D that are by the scientist,
>> the scientist that bring it back to the prompt. I'm surprised no one brought up the Proverbs 31.
>> I was going to say Proverbs 31. I had that in my notes, but we we went off topic.
>> I think that's a good example of the gender role of the ancient Hebrew woman.
>> She was a small business owner. She made clothing and sold it. She was respectful to her husband. She revered her husband as the leader of the household as God has intended. And she had no problem with being a supportive member of that family. There's no like there there's this conversation that keeps happening where people want to say that the Bible looks down on women or holds women down or or what I'm saying under Okay, so Proverbs 31 talking about a gender role here. That's my point. You're acting like the gender role is a biological imperative. That's not what the Bible is for. It's not a science textbook. It's a philosophy and theological script from God. And you should engage with it as that. That's what it's for. I completely disagree with you because I think that it is the written word of God and he has put a lot of science into it. I'll give
>> Why did he say the earth was flattened?
>> Because it is. No, he didn't. But it also is because listen, the earth is flat.
>> Listen listen. I'll give you an example. Not to get sidetracked. In the flood of Noah, there is specific instance where I can't remember the exact verse, but the Bible says that not only did the water come from above, but it came from springs in the in the water. Spring, the springs of the deep burst forth. Now later, way down the line in the 1900s, like 1930 or 40, they realized that there are indeed underwater springs. There is no way that Noah, a man that back then, could possibly know that at the bottom of the ocean there are springs that would bring up water and also where's the water coming from if there's not something underneath the water.
>> Sorry. So you think that there is a sea above us, a flat disc, and then a sea below us. You believe in the ancient biblical cosmology of flat earth? I don't see why it would not be the truth if everything in the Bible I firmly believe that it is the truth and I know for a fact that Satan is the master of deceit. Right? He wants to mislead you. So why would I trust his suggestion of what the earth is versus what God said the earth is. But I think the Proverbs 31 woman is a great example actually of biblical womanhood and ancient uh roles for women. Um, again, she was a wife, she was a mother, she took good care of her children, but she was also a merchant who uh made goods, bought and sold them. She wasn't in this binary role. Um, and I think that what I see a lot of times is certain people on the liberal side will try to make it seem as though the Bible uh explicitly commands women to solely do one thing, to solely be, you know, mothers and caretakers. And yes, that is a very fundamental uh biblical role of a woman. It's it's honorable to be a wife, to be a good mother. Um, that's in second Timothy, 1 Timothy, 2 Titus. We know that. But there are also various examples in scripture of women again who were in the ancient days um merchants uh women like Esther, women who uh were in positions of leadership like Dborah. So I think that to your point, the Proverbs 31 woman is a great example of biblical female leadership.
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The next prompt is the Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman.
>> Okay. Would you like to go ahead and share? I'm I'm not a Bible head. I will be the first to admit that. But like yes, biblically if we're looking at the Bible says that, you know, marriage is between one man and one woman, yes, we can all agree that it's what that says. But there is enough evidence to show that again, we evolve over time and, you know, views can change. And so I don't I'm not someone that subscribes to something that's antiquated when we see evolution throughout our society in general. So that's that's really all I have to say on that. So question for you as a Christian. Um, is the Bible the final authority for you or is it something that you think can be
>> I think it can I mean I think everybody interprets it in different ways. Conservative Christians can interpret it one way, progressive Christians interpret it one way. So to say that it's the final authority I think it's my initial guide and I pray and I feel like I can feel when God's presence is telling me what is right and what's wrong or how to interpret something. So I think it's a different journey for everybody. I don't think that you can pick and choose pieces of the Bible that you like.
>> Everybody does though. And I'm being honest. Everybody does. You probably do.
>> Yes. The Bible is offensive to me because there's things that I don't like, but I still have to obey them because I love God. And if you love God, you obey him. Just because the culture is changing and it's progressing.
>> Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He never changes. His word never changes. So, as Christians, we can't say, "Oh, yeah. I believe the Bible, but you know, only what I like. I'm only going to take the laws that I like and ignore everything else."
>> So, can I respond to that? So, what I what I will say is that I focus on what makes me the best version of myself and that is showing up for people with compassion and love. I don't want to pick the things from the Bible that are actively making me hate people or condemn them because of their identity. And I think a lot of people in the conservative side use the Bible and use scripture to weaponize people and tell them who you are is wrong, how you live is wrong, rather than showing up with love and compassion. And I know that there's probably an argument to say, well, me showing up for them in that way is loving. But it's how you do it also. And that's why a lot of people say this the whole um line, there's no hate like Christian love. It's because of how you're showing up. You people will remember what you say to them and how you make them feel, not what Bible's verses that you share with.
>> There's bad actors in the Christian faith. That doesn't represent all of us. I love I love gay people. I love trans people. I will treat them with love. That doesn't mean I agree with their lifestyle. You can love people. You can have compassion for them as Christians, as we should without saying, "Oh, I completely agree and I'm going to let you live the way you want."
>> So, you're trying to control their lifestyle by telling them what they're doing wrong. I'm asking
>> no one's doing that, but if I have a gay friend and I am a Christian, I'm going to tell them the truth with compassion and love and there's a way to do it. There are bad actors in the Christian faith and I agree with that.
>> I think this is what distinguishes conservatives from liberals. It's the fact that we believe that the word is God's final authority. Everything I decide to support, every decision I make comes is inspired by scripture. What I'm saying is is that the from what I understand liberals, they shift with the culture. I understand that there could be things there could be things that could change, but when it comes to sin, I think scriptures are pretty clear about that. If you look at the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus chapter 18 and chapter 20, it talks about male not lying with another male, which uses the same Hebrew word that you find in Numbers 5 when it talks about a man lying with a married woman, which is shak, which means sexual intimacy. So there's no confusion about that. What I understand that the big debate that we have in our culture today are debates that people I think is Romans 1 says that people know the truth but they suppress it with their wickedness. People don't like it so they want to do what they want to do. At the end of the day, as a Christian, I have a calling and I have a responsibility to call out sin respectfully with love and but the chance of that person ever repenting, turning from a life of sin is is our responsibility. And I wrestle when I meet Christians who define themselves as Christians. But to them, scripture is just a good guide that helps them love better. I'm not saying don't love, but if your love causes you to withhold the truth from calling someone else to change and to transform, then we can love a whole lot of people to hell. There are plenty of good people in hell. And I'm not saying that that's the heart because I hear everything you're saying. There are bad Christians. There are Christians that are misinformed. There are Christians that abuse scriptures. But when you look at the New Testament, Paul says that men left natural relations with women for unnatural relation. I don't know how you can interpret that behavior. It says that they lusted after one another.
>> That's not a loving relationship. That's the difference. That's the difference. You can't say that the loving relationship is in the Bible. They don't talk about loving relationship between same sex. But that's what I'm saying. So you're saying we the prompt is about marriage about between a man and a woman. There is no distinction in the Bible that says two genders cannot marry each other in a loving relationship. Marriage is different than just lying with somebody and having sex. What other scriptures do you see that support man?
>> I think she might I think she might be able to answer the question.
>> So when we read the Bible, we need to engage in exegesis, exegesis, and divine revelation. Agreed?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. These three things are important. What you're talking about with these language root words is exegesis, right? Is exegesis is where you try to read yourself into it.
>> When we're talking about man versus woman, okay, what's the language that they use? It's actually an right if you go to first Corinthians and Maloquy. Maloy just means a feminine man, right? It's used to describe noble boys who have never gone to war. So the idea that this is talking about gay men is just not true. It's not talking about gay. A synquitus is also used to describe abusers.
>> What verses are you talking about specifically? First Corinthians, but there are other verses in scripture that explicitly state that like she mentioned first uh Romans 1:26-27.
>> It's a synquitus. I
>> But the question would be sorry really quick. The question would be, is there a difference between the actual specific word homosexual and the hold on and the detailing of the types of relationships? Because hold on, because there is not one instance in scripture where man and man and woman and woman are spoken of in a good way. Hold on. There is not one time where the Lord says anything regarding any form of homosexuality and it is in a good way. He is looking at it positively. There's not one instance. So there's no way to impute on scripture that God is comfortable or likes the just because the wording might have been translated differently in the Greek etc.
>> In a few verses
>> in a few verses but the Lord Genesis from Genesis to Revelation he speaks negatively. Every single time there's a mention about same-sex attraction it is in a negative light.
>> What is the style of same-sex attraction that existed in that culture? It was pederasty and abuse. That was it. There was no conception. This is true.
>> Give me an example of two gay lovers at this time that had a consensual adult monogamous relationship. Give me an example anywhere in this time where they talked about this biblically or not. They don't have it because there was no conception. This is why just interrupting me. Let me finish my point. Just because nowadays we do have gay aquitas was created by Paul. It's a word made up by Paul and he uses it to talk about bed men like pederasty where he also in that same scripture talks about sex trafficking and abusing your wife sexually. He uses the same word to describe all these people. When we're talking about a synquitus we're talking about people who abuse sexually and exploit others. Can I just let me finish my thought? Yeah. Because I let you guys finish just to assume that acidic quite has any conception of what a modern monogamous gay relationship is is is exegesis. You're doing it. You're doing the thing.
>> Um I think again this goes back to what you said where as Christians we should be rooting our authority in scripture. And this is why I think in uh Matthew 19 when Jesus is asked about marriage, he goes back to creation. He goes back to the beginning, God's original order, and he says to them, "Haven't you read that in the beginning, God made them male and female, that the man shall leave his father and mother and be joined together to his wife." So when Jesus is having an argument about in this context, marriage and divorce with the Pharisees, he takes them all the way back to Genesis. He takes them back to creation when everything was set in stone, perfect prefall to show that this is God's original order. It's man and woman. Um, and that is very clear in the Bible. I don't think that you can read into um the Bible any any place where same-sex marriage is something that is allowed that is celebrated that is celebrating that God did not know that later on we would have this idea because God hold the Lord makes it in a very intentional um note that you should not engage engage in intoxication, right? Because we're not just oh, we're not just being drunk. There's there's intoxication as well. So people can say, "Oh, I'm not a drunkard, but I just do meth." Like, do you think that now because I'm not getting drunk, the Lord is okay with that type of sin? No. He wants you, he gave us his word with the concepts wrapped around them so that we can live correctly. And so for for the liberal side, what happens is that because you want this thing to be true, you want to believe that the Lord is comfortable with these types of
>> he somehow didn't know
>> that he didn't know later on that we would be in these loving gay marriages. He knew he saw it in advance and he every single time he had a chance to talk about homosexuals or male to male, female to female same-sex attraction, every single time he mentioned anything close to that, it was negative. So we cannot suggest that God is okay with this thing.
And the next prompt is abortion is a grave moral evil.
>> Okay. Okay. Would you like to speak?
>> Um yeah. I mean we can get into obviously scripture like God knew us before uh we were ever in our mother's womb. So obviously this is this is just such a as a Christian we know that life starts at uh before conception to be honest with you. Also, one thing that I I have discussed online before was just that uh when it comes to abortion, a lot of the times liberals are thinking for the mother and what's best for her. But once again, one thing I've learned through reading the Bible is that my life I give up my life for my faith. I give up my life for Christ. That's the whole concept. So even if I have to die for life to come, that's the whole purpose of me surrendering my life and becoming a Christian. I wasn't I didn't grow up in the church. So I I grew into this faith. And one concept that I grasped and I understood was that I would die for my faith. So once again with life coming in, the argument with liberals is they always think about what is best for us as Christians. I think what's best for others. Um, I just think of this example. There was this young girl. She's like 19 years old. She's in a coma and she gets pregnant by one of the the male workers that's working there who's also Christian. He's also in the church choir and he's also married. So, he gets this woman pregnant. Like, who would want to have that baby afterwards? I mean, I think he should have a choice. I would I mean, to have that baby and then the family has to look at the baby looks just like this rapist. Once again, we're called to suffer. Like that's all Paul wrote when it comes to slavery. I don't want to get off topic, but like one thing with slavery is like Paul was also like he was praising when he was imprisoned. He was praising when he was getting beaten. He was praising when he was uh shipwrecked and like drifting off at sea. This man was teaching us how to suffer well as Christians. So with that, it's unfortunate. That's terrible. But one thing the Bible clearly teaches us is that we're going to go through pain. We're going to go through unfortunate situations and circumstances. It produces the fruits of the spirit actually to go through that, right? Because my body is literally used for the kingdom. So when something painful happens, how can I make it purposeful? How can I bring glory to God that I was able to uh overcome such a tragedy or such a terrible situation and still give God the glory?
>> So how do you guys deal with Exodus 21? How do you guys like reconcile Exodus 21 or 1st Samuel 15:13? Do you guys? So, Exodus 21, it's in the Septuagint, they're talking about a woman who's pregnant who gets harmed and loses the baby. In the Septuagint, it says explicitly the unformed baby, they shall pay a fine, and to the formed baby that's lost, they shall pay life for life. So, even in the Bible, you have a separation of distinction between an unformed maybe pre-15 weeks, we don't really know what they mean by that, and later. That's biblical, that's in the actual law. So, how do you guys reconcile that? Or in 1st Samuel 15 to continue,
>> did it say that you should kill it though if it's
>> so 1st Samuel 15 Amalachites he says kill every woman, infant and child. God orders the death of babies. But how do you reconcile?
>> Here's here's the difference. This this is how I reconcile. First of all, that situation is very unfortunate. And I would question if that person is even a Christian to begin with. Just cuz it it pretends to be a Christian and claims to be a Christian does not mean that it walks like a Christian. Um, and when it comes to this situation, for me, I think that God really, this is what I see that people don't understand in today's world is that God creates life. He can destroy, but he has the power to raise that life again. Women want to be like God. Well, I created the baby. Therefore, I can destroy the baby, but that death ends at a death. You don't have But what I'm saying is God can raise that life again. And we understand that that will happen in eternity. Good.
>> Can I if you killed the baby?
>> But the other point that I wanted to make is that you know when it comes to abortion I don't think people understand that the decision somehow we think that if this person doesn't get to keep the baby then we do her a service. You're there was violence when that child came to existence and now there's going to be violence to take that child out of existence. And at the same time there's a lack of accountability. No one considers God's heart. We say, "Well, it's my body, my choice." Yes, but before it was in your body, it was in God's hands. God took the time to form that baby, to design it, to place a heart, to number the hair on the head, and we think, "Well, it's just a fetus."
>> Where was God at when that was happening?
>> But I'm God was there and he didn't approve it. Just like God was there when I went through abuse and he didn't approve it.
>> So, is it good?
>> That's why the Bible says God is not a man that he should lie, nor the son of man that he should change his mind. Just because someone decides to take wicked actions does not mean that God approves it. And slavery and all the responses shows that God doesn't always approve it. God has a right to do that. But isn't it also violence when God implants a fetus in your uterus when it's from rape?
>> Do you question like do you guys love God? Do you guys trust him?
>> Of course. I I believe in
>> So then if that happens, why aren't you trusting him that there's a reason all of this is happening?
>> Could I just respond? I think we're confusing. The Bible makes it very clear that God does not control us as though we were robots. So God doesn't ordain evil. If a person in their free will chooses to do something evil, that's not because God ordained it.
>> So then the Bible, Can I just finish? Can I finish answer this question?
>> Why did he order this?
>> His ways are higher than our ways. You're not God and I'm
>> I'm not saying I'm God. I'm saying are you
>> God can take life. God can take life and God can create life because he's God. So he decides but to the point back to the prompt on abortion. Do I think abortion is a grave moral evil? Yes. As a Christian and also as somebody in human rights. And I'll give two responses. Number one um again the Bible is clear like you said that God knows us before we were even created. That's clear from Psalm 139. It says that God knew my unformed substance. You wrote my days out before they were even made. God knows every single human being before they uh are born. He he imbues personhood onto a person before they're even born. Secondly, science is clear life begins at conception. So the taking away of a life is wrong and it's what the Bible describes as murder. It is a grave moral harm. And as somebody who um again works in human rights and who understands that the primary human right is the right to life, I just can't um to me conceptualize how taking away life, a pre-born life is right or is correct.
>> Then why was it only a fine in Exodus 21? Why is it only a fine? Why
>> we have to we have to read scripture in context to other scripture. We can't just isolate verses. In the context of all other scriptures including like we mentioned uh Psalm 139 Jeremiah 15 before you were in your mother's womb I knew you. So we look at that scripture in context of other scriptures
>> about your soul right we agree that your soul has existed forever and will always exist but even if you go to the Catholic church the Catholic church is open about this they say we don't know when a baby isn't sold we have no idea for a long time they believed it was about 40 days and the punishment for abortion and just so it's clear I want to make this very clear anytime an abortion is happening it is a tragedy there is always something awful happening usually the woman making the choice to abort the fetus is not making a delightful choice. There's no women going in and celebrating and being super happy. And the very very seen a few videos the very few that gets pushed out and propagandized because it's salacious are mentally ill and the rest of us disavow. We think that that's bad, right? And so what you need to do with this Septuagint is you need to look at this and go, why did God in his ancient Hebrew law make it okay? There's a punishment for manslaughter. There's a punishment for murder. And yet when an unformed fetus is killed, the punishment is money.
>> Can I?
>> But that's not God making it okay because there's still a fine for that. So how is that God making it okay?
>> I would like to I would like Sorry. I would like to respond to what you're saying because there's there's a few things that you've brought up over and over. One was the Amalekites, right? And why did God command his people to go and kill the men, women, and children? You have to remember we have to remember that the Amalekites worshiped a pagan god. So once we separate ourselves from God, you are now his enemy. You have to understand God. No, listen to me. God does not share the same covenant with the people that are not walking with him as those that are walking with him. You are his enemy if you serve an enemy God. So at that point, what God was doing was enacting judgment on the Amalekite people. And God is to be feared. Don't get it twisted. Everyone wants to, especially the left, they want to say it's love and love and love. God says fear the Lord over and over and over in scripture. So what happened is the Amalekites felt the wrath of God which is promised on all of humanity on judgment day as well. Please understand that a lot of babies a lot of children will be you know unfortunately lost on judgment day because that is just the that's that's the long-term result of people choosing to be separated from God. He says that if you separate yourself, your children
>> look at look at what happened. Look,
>> you say children are going to be judged children before the age of accountability.
>> I I don't know the age limit of it. What I know is that scripture shows us Adam and Eve sinned and therefore their offsprings dealt with. So the infants were right to be judged innocent. Killing killing infants doesn't mean that they went to hell. You have to remember that they went to hell. But if we think that murder is wrong, probably innocent killing innocent at the same time, God is God. And so God choosing to take away somebody's life is not God killing somebody or murdering them.
>> He says Saul murder and destroy every He says murder and destroy. He doesn't say this issue, but we haven't gotten to talk about the fact that are we pro-life or pro-right? Like what what is going to happen to take care of this baby afterwards? Take care of the mother, the maternal death rate, especially in Alabama where I'm from and the black women, it's it's astronomical. So, like if like I I went on a march for life in high school, like I um have been um I'm a cradle Catholic. I've been uh raised um to abide by all of those things that like no abortion, all those things. But I want to make sure that the mom and the child are actually being taken care of and who's going to pay for that? And so I mean we can probably agree on that of like yes I don't want people like again like I don't want anyone to have an abortion and I recognize because like
>> circumstantial like um to save your life or to be able to feed your other children um to be able to work like um to make sure that that baby isn't born without having parents like if you're a single mom and you die in childbirth what's going to happen to that baby? And of course, like um I just don't understand how we can overlook the fact that until we have more programs to help support moms and babies. Like we can't so focus on being pro-birth that we don't take care of the mom and the baby.
A woman's submission to her husband as referenced in the Bible contradicts the idea of female empowerment.
>> No, no, no, no, no, no.
>> I'm confused with the question. Okay. I said I said no only because I think it is a case by case situation. I think if submission is what you want to do then you're empowered by that and that's kind of to each their own. I don't submit to my husband, we are very equal. But if somebody wants to submit to their husband and that makes them happy and it works in their household then
I think it's fair. So do you think that submission means that you're not equal?
>> Um, that's a good question. Um, probably I because I do think that biblically there could be a case to be made that the man is supposed to be the head of the household and the woman is supposed to be um submissive. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think equality shows cuz I have two daughters so I want her to see me also leading as well. Um, and they have just as much respect for their father as they do for me. Um, but I think again, it's a case by case situation if that works.
When you say I don't submit to my husband, like what what does that mean?
>> Like I work, you know, I work full-time. Um, I own my own business. I own my own company. I travel. I I And sometimes he has to be both parents if I'm gone. Sometimes he has to travel and I have to be both parents when he's gone. So it really is a give and take. There are things in our household that I don't want to do that he does. There are things that And just reverse.
Is is >> You're talking more about gender roles.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I would I think I would like to respond to this. I think submission is such a beautiful thing because the a marriage is the only relationship in the world that exemplifies our relationship with Christ, right? Like Christ lays down his life for us as the church as the husband would lay down his life for the wife. The wife submits to her husband as we submit to Christ. So it's the only relationship where people can look at that and say that is what our relationship is like with Christ. Also to your point, submission isn't inequality. We are equal in value. We're different in the way that we operate. I don't think submission is this subservient role as you know our culture says they hate the word submission but really when we go back and like she said Ezra Kdo how that is a term that God uses to describe himself. I don't see how there would be any inequality or a woman being subservient in that role.
>> To say that the husband is the leader and the one that runs the household. I think that that isn't a natural inequality, is it not?
I don't think it is because even though the husband leads, the wife is still pouring wisdom into the husband. It's not like this this doineering thing where the husband is like do what I say or you know it's my way or the highway. I think a lot of times the woman is you know she has uh intuition a lot of she has wisdom. So the wife is pouring wisdom into the husband but I think at the end of the day the husband is the head of the household. It it's God husband wife and it's not in a subservient position but it is in a role position.
Oh yeah. And I just wanted to um address also what you said about the subservient position. I think to your point when we look at leadership biblically and I think Jesus addressed this in Matthew chapter 20 um and he's speaking to the disciples um he says to them any of you who want to be the greatest of all should be the greatest servant. So Jesus actually models servant leadership when we're talking about lordship leadership. Um, it's the same way with a husband. If a husband is to lead biblically he is to be a servant. That's why the Bible says um that a man lays down his life like Christ laid down his life for us and in return the wife is to submit. So when we're looking at rulership, it's different to the way that the world describes that. And Jesus emphasized that that when you uh are seeking to be a leader, you're not like the Gentiles who lord over the the people that they're leading. No, you're actually meant to be a servant. So in that uh in that sense, I don't also think that it disempowers women.
>> I think submission is necessary in relationships. I think the problem is that submission always tends to go back and forth. Like let's be frank like men submit to women in the household all the time. Like I imagine for example you guys give lists to your husbands of like chores to do and you probably have to check that the chores are done um to make sure that these things maybe you just do all the chores. That's fine for your relationship, right? But in most relationships both people are working and both people are doing domestic labor, right? And typically the woman is like the the lord of the house. She like makes a lot of the determinations. She probably knows the teachers' names and he probably doesn't, right? She probably knows which school, how to pack these things. So submission tends to go back and forth, right? For example, in my relationship with my husband, he is so good at finances. He's been investing for years. I I basically just give him the bank out and I'm like, "Have fun. Go crazy." Like, I don't want to look at it. Um because I find money very stressful. But I also work 90 I I bring in the bulk of the income, right? And so when we talk about submission, I think one of the really big problems that I've had with the church for a long time, coming from a fundamentalist background, which I'm not a fundamentalist anymore, is that submission is is domination a lot of the time. And submission is earned by a man. I don't submit to Nick, my husband, because he enforces it. I don't submit to Nick because my elders would get mad at me if I didn't. I submit to Nick because I know he loves me so much and he wouldn't do things to harm me. But I want to be very clear that is not true of all marriages. Not all men do earn that. In fact, many don't. And so when it comes to submission, I think about it very much in the way that like submission looks like within like democracy. I yield it because I respect the authority above me. But the moment I can't trust that authority, you're not getting my submission anymore.
I I think submission is so beautiful when it comes to examples where the marriage is unifying. I would not encourage obviously women to submit in abusive situations. There's a different protocol to that. But I do think when I look at scripture, biblical submission, Jesus though being God still submitted to the father. The scriptures calls us to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. And it's so amazing because often times the world tells you you can't be successful, you can't be influential, you can't be powerful, you can't be gifted, wise, whatever the case, unless you're doing it by yourself. But that's not true. You look at Deborah, she was the judge, she was the leader, and somehow she still submitted to Barack. You look at the Proverbs 31 woman who led, ran a business, but still submitted to her husband, and he gained the respect. You see so many different biblical situations with Esther who submitted to Mori though it was through her that the Jewish nation was rescued and what I love about it is that God literally through Christ elevated women. They were the first ones to see the resurrected Messiah. They were the first ones they supported his ministry. The 12 went with him. But the women also follow. They were the ones that were there at the cross while he was hanging on the tree. And it's so amazing because while the world does put women down, while men have abused their power, biblical submission says, "I've made them equal." So equal that even Paul in 1 Corinthians, I think it's in chapter 11, he literally says that the woman is the glory of the man. And it says that though that the woman is not independent of the man, but neither is the man independent of the woman because it says that though she comes to the man, he is born of the woman. So God is so genius that he can't say, "Well, you came from my rib, but she can also say, yeah, but I birthed all the other men." So we really need each other. And God wants to elevate both. We play different roles, but none of them are actually inferior.
>> I just want to point out that a lot of what you said specifically was more so you're talking about duties and tasks in the home. A lot of people mentioned that. That's not submission. That's that's a division of labor. Submission is are you gonna argue with your husband all the time? That's that's what it is. The submission is if he makes a decision about the household, are you going to fight him tooth and nail? Right? The the proverbs, I can't remember the exact one, but warns against the woman that is cantankerous that that you know argues with her husband and says that it's better for a man to not be around that type of woman. So when God says that you are to submit, he's not saying like let this man be your slave driver. He's saying like please trust that he is connected. First of all, let's remember we are to submit to a man of God. We're not talking about these men out here that are abusive or that are, you know, mistreating women. We're talking about men of God who are submitted to God and being led by God. So, that is the type of man you're supposed to be able to trust with submitting to.
>> But many men of God, like I mean, look at look at how do you guys know how Augustine talks about women? He says you're married to death, right? They viewed women as a temptress. I agree that Paul is like insanely progressive, which we'll get to, in the way that he thinks and talks about women despite not even marrying ever, right? And yet, when we look at the fathers that inherit this cross throughout the ages, this exact presumption has absolutely been used in domination, which is why I think there has to be a sophisticated conversation. Do I argue with my husband on things? Sometimes, because sometimes I'm right, but a lot of times he's right. Right. And the issue is we have a good enough relationship that when we disagree, we talk about it and we can actually ration it out. And when he's correct, I can go, "Oh, yeah. Of course, you're correct."
>> As long as it's as long as it's not complete in righteousness that he's asking you to submit to.
>> If it's not sin, you're still called to submit to your husband out of reverence for Christ. So, you still have a role to play as a wife. Whether you might say, "Well, he didn't earn my respect and my submission, therefore, I'm not going to submit." But scripture still calls you that because you are entrusting yourself to Christ as long as he's not asking you to submit to sin, you still as a wife have a responsibility to submit to your husband.
>> Yeah. I I think that we're kind of glazing over the abuse aspect of this. Um, because I 100% agree that submission is biblical. Submission is a beautiful thing when it's within a healthy relationship. And most of the time from the church, from the pulpit, it is preached and is taught from a domineering standpoint. And that that has a lot to do with a lot of different things. That's patriarchy, that's sexism, that's a lot of things. But there's there's no way that we can kind of skim over the idea that the scriptures themselves are used to promote abuse. I just want to ask if anyone wants to speak on the idea of female empowerment in submission.
>> Yeah. I I found that uh me submitting myself to Christ like even if like my husband steered away, right? Because it's another thing, right? Cuz you're I've known my husband 10 years, right? So there were moments where I was weak, really weak in my faith and that his submission I actually didn't even know I was unequally yoked when I first got with my husband. So his submission to God brought me to Christ because I saw the way he obeyed God more than just like bowing down to me and everything. And so I was inspired by his faith. And then it kind of reversed too where there were times where he strayed away from the faith, but my obedience to God brought him back. And I think that that was the most empowering thing that I stood my ground with Christ and I fed him into that. It was it was female empowerment. It's it's once again laying your life down for another, you know, cuz what marriage is doing is keeping guys keeping your guys' salvation. Like you're constantly um making you guys holy.
>> Yeah. You're refining each other. And when you stay grounded in your marriage and you're obeying God, that's constantly pushing them wherever they're going. It's constantly like it's almost um how do I explain? It's just inspiring them. You're the light in darkness so that they continuously get drawn back to the light. It's the most beautiful thing to live for. And in and
>> the problem. So I agree, right? And like my husband, I can't praise that man enough. He is the best thing. We've been married for eight years. I He is the best thing. He's the wisest person I know. He's my best friend. I wouldn't trade a date with anyone else. He is the best thing. And he is that man who's really striving towards God. Which is why when he says, "Kyla, I just feel my soul that we need to do this." I just go, "Okay, like I trust you." Right? The problem is that there are so many men of God that some you might be married to that do fall astray and it is hard to know and it's not just abuse right if look at how long did it take for marital rape to be viewed as a bad thing within law let alone the church it's still argued about right there are still people today men who say marriage is consent right so this is one of the issues where I go of course I want to submit and in the ideal situation It's maximally empowering because areas where he's strong at, I trust him in and he trusts me in the areas I'm strong at, right? And that's a beautiful union. But to pretend as though that is what happens, right? When you say a cantankerous woman, probably most of the viewers are going to think I'm a cantankerous woman. I'm not. Right? But they're going to view that because in the church, a woman who isn't keeping sweet and smiling and being soft is viewed as this way. This is true. I grew up in fundamental spaces. I know how I was treated for just asking pastors questions about theology.
>> But I think we also have to distinguish again between Yes, I fully agree that there have been harms done by people weaponizing scripture. That's true fully. And I agree that we you we as women shouldn't submit to just anybody, but again, we have to go back to what is the Bible thing? What's God's intention? Of course, we're imperfect people, but when we're looking at the biblical view of submission, it is that uh like you just much like your relationship with your husband, it's a beautiful relationship where he he loves you and you want to submit to him because you see his love. That's the kind of submission that the Bible talks about.
And the next prompt is faith should stay separate from partisan politics. Okay. Um, does anyone feel strongly about this?
>> I feel very strongly about this. um because I do think faith should be related um uh should be the crux of how we take care of people and I don't think that it has to be just Christianity. I think it should be the faith of each of like faith should be important for um making sure people are taken care of cuz like as Jesus said the greatest of these is love and we should lead with love and we should lead with compassion and lead with making sure that everyone is cared for for the true values that um I guess I was raised with from the Bible. Um, and right now especially in our country right now like the values that are espoused in the Bible are not very much practiced. I feel like a lot of people read the Bible to say you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do that rather than saying like this is something I need to change. So when I hear that question, I think each and every person in every level of our society needs to read the Bible to see what they individually need to change for themselves and like focus on the um the log in their own eye rather than the speck in their brother's eye. Um, and I think that's why things are so toxic right now because we're um cuz like even Adam and Eve brought in the world wanting to be God and then when that doesn't work, we try to blame other people. And so at the end of the day, if we go back to the root of of like I said, loving each other like it um and I'm sure you guys can I I grew up Catholic Catholic um we don't do the Bible verses as much as I'm not going to say that. But who wants to tell me what it says in the Bible about love? What is love? God is love.
>> No, love is patient. Love is kind. Love is
>> who knows it?
>> Yes. Longsuffering. All of these things of the greatest of these is love. That's the list that we need to center when it comes to politics, when it comes to how we relate to each other. The greatest of these. So, that's what I think. And and again like if another like it doesn't matter if it's Christianity, if it's Buddhism, if it's um um other religions. I just think that having a a moral backing um is so important. Having strict value system that centers love is what our country needs. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Um, I do think it's important to love and because God is love and God says you can do a lot of things but if there's no love then you're just making a whole lot of noise. But I do think truth is important. It's equal. You have to balance it out. Um, when I think of Romans, Paul says that you know that there are people that are literally supporting people with things that they know leads to death. They deserve death. But not only do they continue to do these such things, but they approve of them. So when it comes to politics, everything I decide whether from political laws that I support is going to come what do I believe scripture calls me to support. Because if I'm not standing in the ground and as a Christian speaking, hey, listen, you can do whatever you want to do as an individual. You're an adult. You will have to give an account to God. But at the same time, as a Christian, I can't push agendas that I know are going against God.
>> How can you see clearly if you don't focus on the law?
>> Well, that scripture doesn't necessarily say don't take the log out of your brother's eye. It says the order. It says first take out your own log.
>> Um, I'm sorry.
>> It doesn't say don't. It says do not judge or you will not be judged. do not condemning you, you will not be condemned. Forgiven, you'll be forgiven. Um, but it it literally says the measure that you use will be measured unto you. So, it's not against judgment altogether. It's against hypocritical judgment. If I'm calling you to something is because hopefully I'm also holding myself accountable and hopefully you love me enough to call me out as well.
>> But at the same time, I think that the way the world is now is because Christians are silent. We're too afraid to offend. Everybody gets triggered with every little word that we use. And and it's scary because we live in a society that is like to love someone's means that I have to tolerate. I can love you and I can respect you, but I can completely say, "Hey, I don't agree with that lifestyle because scripture calls me and tells me that that's sin." And to love you doesn't mean that I have to tolerate it. And so for me, I think it's important for Christians to rise up. When you see scriptures that talks about there being horrible laws or kings not leading the nation, it says that God's heart grieved. He looks down and he looks at the wickedness of humanity. Why? Because everybody is doing what they say they see fit in their own eyes. We're too afraid. We We think we're we're afraid of hurt feelings. You don't have to hurt feelings. You can respectfully say, "I love you. God calls me to tell you that this is sin. At the end of the day, you can decide to do what you want to do, but I still have to love you enough to tell you the truth."
>> Okay. So, this is Okay, I keep hearing about the Bible. I I've never read the Bible. I keep hearing about the Bible says this and we should love. I'm full of a lot of love. I love everyone. I never judge and I've never read the Bible.
>> But how did you become a Christian?
>> I'm born a Christian.
>> So, how do you know how do you how do you know your your what what your maker says?
>> I believe in God. I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in the I I I don't I don't set beliefs on the Bible because I haven't read it, but I don't think I ever will will read it. I mean, I I'm I'm naturally full of a lot of love.
>> So, do you believe in Jesus?
>> I believe in >> or >> anything is possible. There may be there probably was a Jesus. I don't know. It probably there wasn't. I don't know. But I'm I'm open to everything.
So you do you call yourself a Christian specifically or are you just someone who believes in God?
>> I don't I don't I'm a Christian Orthodox. I'm Armenian, but I'm not I don't practice Christianity. But I'm open to gay marriage. I'm open to anything. But I'm still I'm full of love. I don't need to follow the Bible to be full of love and righteousness.
>> So how can you call yourself something that you're not practicing?
>> I'm not a Christian. I I'm born a Christian. I don't practice Christianity. This has to do with politics. Christianity is a faith. It is a it's a decision in a higher power,
>> right? Okay, that's fair. But I think you would have we would all just need to believe in the Bible to be full of love.
>> I think that's that's absolutely fair. But I think we would all just kind of say that you're not necessarily a Christian because each Christian has to take a vow to Jesus. We get baptized in his name. We get covered by his blood. And we say, "Well, sure, but if you don't believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, then you are not a Christian." And that's okay. That's okay. It's I think, you know, I think all of us are going to come after after we're filming and like try to minister to you because we would love to see you accept him in your heart and know that he is God.
>> I do. I do. I accept anything for me as possible.
>> And the reason I I had to do this is because I I completely 100% agree with my sister over here. Um, as far as I mean, we we understand that either you believe the Bible or you don't. Either you either, pardon me, either you believe the Paul says to eat the whole roll. You don't just pick and choose. And this kind of, you know, goes back to the point that I was making before and I in my mind it's not off topic. I I feel that there is such a immediate judgment um very often from you lovely ladies, you've said it several times, what the liberals tend to do, what the left always does and not understanding that as a Christian that is a liberal, my moral compass is very much aligned with what the scriptures say. And there's no debating that. like either I'm going to accept the word of God or I'm not. But living by the word of God, I I find it interesting in this climate in particularly that we have experienced so much bigotry and deception that is then justified because the focus is on abortion. And for me, that's where that's where you're kind of losing me because I, you know, I shared this before and, you know, in in the back that I'm I'm adamantly against abortion. I I very much believe that conception starts, you know, before any of us were even a thought in in in our mother or father's minds. However, I I cannot stand behind a party that would then subjugate people into boxes and be willing to put children into cages and be willing to to just, you know, kind of turn their their eyes against the things that they don't want to really focus on. When we're talking about the the book of Leviticus specifically, it also says that God detests unbalanced scales. So that if you judge this person by this standard and this person by that standard because they align with me over here or we belong to the same denomination or we're in the same sorority or whatever it is. You're committing the same sin that you're pointing the fingers at.
If I can just ask you because I remember you made a distinction. Everyone else said that they're a liberal Christian but you made the the distinction to say that you're a Democrat Christian. So my assumption is I don't want to you know place this on you but my assumption is that you might have voted for Kamla for someone as such as yourself to be so anti-abortion and then turn around and vote for the person who bought an abortion bus to the DNC to perform abortions outside of the Democratic National Convention. I don't see when when you're pointing not pointing the finger, but when you're saying how can we align ourselves with a party that's not fully living up to scripture and then you very comfortably align yourself with a party that is not only not living up hold on not living up to certain
>> assumption is that I very comfortably align myself
>> you made the same assumption about us question allow me to answer the question okay unless it's rhetorical
>> well I would say I think allow just really quickly we said that we are conservative
>> you're not going to allow me to answer the question
>> really quickly We said that we're conservative Christians. We didn't say that we are 100% in alignment with what everything that the party is doing.
>> And neither. And that's my point. That's exactly my point.
>> Okay.
>> That there are definitely conflicts. Like there's there are these two parties are not the righteousness of God. Neither of them are. And that's clear.
>> But but the Republican party is not more aligned with the word of God and the will of God than the Democratic party. You are not. We are because all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. That's what the the scriptures say. All of us.
>> Not righteousness, but you know, goodness.
>> The scripture says all of our righteousness is as filthy rags verbatim.
And the next prompt is liberalism and Christianity are at odds. Okay, you can go ahead and start.
>> Okay. to slightly reference the previous conversation as well. Um, power corrupts faith institutions. When when politics and faith blend and become the same institution, it's bad for the church. It's bad for the people and it's bad for the church, right? So, of course, your faith will inform your moral compass, which will inform the way that you vote. That's that's that's a granted. The problem is that first of all, if you look at Jesus, what was one of the reasons that he was crucified? The Jews wanted him to be political and he refused to be. On top of that, the founding fathers, also Christian men, explicitly did not write the faith institution into our church, into our into our constitution. And there's a reason for this. When politics and faith get unified together into the same institution, it destroys the faith. It's bad. Look at the darkest times of our church institution, the dark ages and the medieval, right? The church has all these power and they are burning women alive as witches because they like are midwives genuinely because they're midwives because they have ideas. So the idea that your politics should like your faith should dominantly drive it I think is super bad especially because you have to recognize most people in your country aren't Christian and we are not called to subjugate non-Christians to our law. That's a Muslim thing. That is not our thing at all. And so when Christians start doing this, they're trampling on the name of Jesus. That's what's happening. It's heretical to do so.
>> So I wanted to kind of correct something that you said in the beginning, which is that Jesus was crucified because he was apolitical. And that's not true. He was crucified biblically because um he blasphemed. So that was their reason for crucifying him. Um, and second, I do think that it's kind of naive to believe that a person's core belief system doesn't involve their politics. You kind of touched on that. But I think as Christians, again, like you said, we're called to be a light. And I don't see that distinction in scripture. So as a Christian in scripture, I don't see a distinction between politics and faith. In fact, I see examples of people um in government who were people of God. Daniel, Esther, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Joseph. So I don't see that distinction as a Christian.
>> Okay. Now, in terms of liberalism, because that's the prompt that we're talking about right now.
>> Can anyone can anyone speak to liberalism and Christianity are at odds?
>> No. Sure. No. Um I mean for me again my my faith informs everything that I do and and and how I move through the world and from my understanding of being a Christian. It is following the life and teachings of Jesus. And what I have taken from Jesus's life and teachings is that we show up for people in a certain way. And um I have always viewed him as being a progressive because he was trying to make progress during the time. There's nothing about him that was trying to conserve anything at the time. So, I don't see how he would be conservative and I don't see how liberalism would go against being a Christian because from my understanding of Christianity and what Jesus stood for, it is very much aligned with progressive values.
>> Sorry.
>> I I think Jesus wouldn't be on either side because I think both sides are corrupt, which is why I believe in separation of of church and state, which is the last prompt. I don't think that politics and faith should be involved. We don't need pastors on stage giving political speeches. We need them preaching the word. Um, but yeah, they do. And that's the problem is that faith and politics have been intertwined. Both sides are a puppet show. It's not like I I'm conservative, but I don't agree with the party. And I think most of us here don't agree with everything our party does. I think politics is a joke, honestly. And so, I don't think we can say sit here and say, well, Jesus would be liberal because of love and compassion. Well, there's a lot of things on the left that do not align with the Bible. You can say it's all about love and compassion, but it's it's not all about love and compassion. And to to that point, on the conservative side, on the right side, there's a lot of things that the right does that definitely don't align with the Bible.
>> Thank you for saying that. I think we can all agree on that.
>> I do think that, you know, while I agree that Jesus probably wouldn't be necessarily preaching politics, I do think it's important to call things out. One of the things that I learned as I was researching about abortion, specifically over a million abortions last year, and it was crazy. It it really truly broke my heart because this there was a survey that said that four out of 10 women that commit abortion are Christian active active churchgoers and I was like when the church is so divided that almost a 50% of the church is committing abortion we're questioning we're this is the Eve effect. Did God really say that abortion is murder? Did God really say a sex only between male and female? Did God really say this? The moment the church the world starts putting an idea and start questioning the church then starts reflecting oh are we really should we progress and then next thing you know now the church is adopted. So when church leaders are preaching from the pulpit a good heartsy message but they're not saying this is sin and then the members in the church are confused and they're going out there. They're claiming to be Christians but they're still committing the same sins that the war is committed. I have an issue with that because we're called to be shepherds. We're called to be watchmen. We have a responsibility to uphold God's standard. And while Jesus might not be saying, "I'm a Republican or a Democrat, he will be standing on the word of God." I don't think he would have changed his mind on whether abortion was a sin or not. He wouldn't have changed his mind on whether sex between a male and a female. He was very clear-cut. And I think the problem is men just want to suppress the truth and so deceive themselves. in in regards to specifically liberalism being at odds with scripture and at odds with the Bible. One of the big Christianity or Christianity, one of the big things that I have found that liberals constantly um and I'm not saying specifically you all, but in my many many conversations with the liberals, they never bring up the fact that Jesus says, "If anyone love me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me." So in the concept of liberalism especially as we know it today a lot of it is affirming of what one person or a group of people wants to be true what they want to normalize what they want to accept as something we should do in our culture instead of saying you know what God says even though you love it deny yourself even though you enjoy it pick up your cross the cross is different for every person it might be that you want to have that abortion but God says you don't so you don't have it or you want to be in that gay you marriage, but God says you don't. So that's your cross to bear. The the liberalism has a love which love thy neighbor is real and God wants us to love each other. But love does not suggest that we ignore the portion where Jesus says you need to walk this walk denying the flesh, denying yourself and submitting to my will and my way. And that's I think that's where Christianity and liberalism are directly at odds because they don't there just is not an affirmation or a an agreement to that self-denial.
>> The church has always been the one of the most progressive religions always through history. Paul is a great example of this. You guys were talking about the progressive approach of women and the way that the Bible talks about them. Current day pope is criticized for being too progressive. What is the history of science of scholarship of everything that tends to explore ideas and push things which are generally categorized as liberal or left whatever you want to call the language because I don't care about the vote necessarily about the philosophical leaning and what you see was when the church is at its best it's leftleaning when it's ending slavery it's leftleaning right you want to talk about the fundamentalist movement you guys are the newest movement of Christian theology to date the newest. It started in 1920. It was a schism drawn predominantly by John Kellogg and an oil baron to bring back the fundamentals. Yorkis' view of biblical inherency is heretical to every other batch of Christianity and it's new. It started in the 1920s and then in 1960 Billy Graham said let's make this political too. That's why the religion has become so politicized and it is a bastardization of our religion. It's wrong. It's wrong what Billy Graham did. It's wrong what evangelicals are doing. And let's talk about the Christian pulpit. Christian nationalism is one of the growing fervors behind it. They want to destroy democracy and they want to repeal the 19th and establish a pope essentially over our country. That is so anti-biblical. It's so hateful. It's the wrong thing to do. And your guys' movement that you think is preserving stuff is the newest one. It's brand new. And every other sect views your approach to the Bible as heretical.
>> We're not Christian nationalists. Right. I said you're fundamentalist. Let me just make your evangelical fundamentalist Protestants. I'm
>> let me just make one quick interjection. One thing that is being misconstrued here is the idea that Jesus was progressive. He was not. He's was regressive. What he did is he came he came he told the Pharisees and the Sadducees, you are not doing what God told you to do. Hold on. God told you to be a light to the world. God told you to be a set apart people that shows the world my love. What they were doing was becoming extremely separatist. And they were telling they were judging people. They were being the opposite of the love of God. So Jesus came to literally correct that back into a a a culture that literally teaches people about God's love. But he did not ever not one time say I am now going to dismiss the laws and dismiss the idea of fulfill it. And then he updated. Who did he might be a Sadducee? I might be a Sadducee. You guys are going to be pharisaic if you're wrong. And who did he say is a is a snake under his boot that he has stomped down? The Pharisees. I might risk being a Sadducee. And that's something I wrestle with all the time. I understand that I have an unorthodox approach to faith in North America. And I pray about it constantly. But the idea that you're so confident that he was progressive. No, he's not. Look at how he approached divorce. When you look at the ancient rabbi fighting about divorce, he sided with the sagaic side. That's what he said. He sided with the liberal progressive side.
I actually agree with you in in the sense that I actually believe that Jesus had many progressive views and so I don't necessarily think that we can put him in this box of conservative. I think Jesus actually had very progressive views. We touched on that his views on women, right? He was somebody who elevated women in a time where that wasn't as uh popular, right? So he was very progressive in many ways. However, I do also stand by the fact that there are many things in the word of God that just do not change. And that's clearly that's a fundamentalist heresy but there's no Jesus said well Jesus said I'm the same today yesterday and forever more. So his word the Amalachites to death he allowed Solomon to have concubines and words I'm sorry if you don't read the Bible and come away with a relativistic approach. You are doing
We're going to go ahead and wrap it up.
>> So we're going to stop here. Thank you. This was definitely a very interesting conversation, spicy conversation with a lot more to probably unpack, but I thank you for being here. And I do want to hear from you individually on what you took away from this conversation or something that you may want to share. Um, not to get into a whole another conversation, but something you want like a takeaway that you want to share with either the audience or the group.
>> Um, my takeaway and this is with the respect. I I find that when I speak with a lot of liberal Christians, they just are not rooted in scripture and and hearing a lot of the young ladies on that side admit that they have not read the Bible, that they don't hold the Bible very highly as far as the authority over their lives. It is, you know, just unfortunate because God left it to us for a reason.
Last thoughts is that there's the unaware and then the Pharisees and Sadducees type who are extremely proficient in studying but have lost the plot as the kids would say and are not allowing Jesus to lead them in their understanding of the world.
First of all, thank you. I this is a difficult conversation. Um I want to say that I'm a Christian before I'm a conservative. So that means that I don't agree with everything that the Conservative Party does. Um, but I also firmly believe in the authority of scripture and I think that as Christians we all should.
>> Um, one thing I'm I I do love about liberals and from watching, you know, even how you guys speak is just you're so big on grace and so big on love. And I think that, you know, we know that we are called to love one another. I think there's just uh on the right side, we are uh we are preaching the truth. We are sticking, you know, to those grounds. And so I've had to kind of learn and I'm, you know, even talking with you guys and what's in your hearts about just loving people is like trying to find a way to love people and preach the truth. And that's still something I'm trying to balance because I don't want to come off self-righteous that I think that the conservative side struggles with when I do talk to talk to them. So that is something I've definitely taken away of how to, you know, practice that.
>> Thank you.
>> Well, I'm grateful for the opportunity and my comment is actually for the audience. Uh, I just want to say if you're on the edge about abortion, if you're on the edge about homosexuality, choose life. Choose seek God's heart to seek God's heart. Even if you're doubting it, look for it. Um, God will hear you. And I know that life can be confusing. I know it can be it can be hard. There is help out there. You do not have to make any choices that lead to death. Christ loves you. The sacrifice on the cross was for me as much as it is for you. Please, please, I beg you, choose life because it matters. Thank you.
>> I would say the most hateful thing that you can do to someone is condemn them to hell and not tell them the truth. So truth is the greatest form of love. And as Christians, we can't pick and choose the truth. If we're going to say that we believe the Bible, we have to take the whole thing and believe it regardless if we agree or not.
>> Thank you. Uh, I was going to say I I really appreciated hearing like Savannah especially, you surprised me when you said the separation of church and state, which shows me I'd love to talk with more Christian women because I think you guys are very heterogeneous in your perspectives and I enjoyed kind of getting that from each from like flat earth to like church and state separation. Um, then expect all those takes. So, that was very informative for me to understand your guys' side. So, I appreciate that.
>> I just want to say I I love everyone's point of view. I really do. Even if I don't agree, I love listening to everyone. I just think in my opinion um that I think people shouldn't hold the Bible in such a high regard. That's just my opinion. Um, it's almost as if it's a crutch. You need to learn love without the Bible. You That's just my opinion. Anyways,
>> yes. And I consider myself Christian, but I don't believe that my religion supersedes everybody else's. I respect other people's religions as well. Um, my main takeaway is that I see there's a fundamental difference in how we love people. Um, and for me, I think I I care more about being the good news to somebody rather than just telling them the good news. And that might be a helpful statement for you because I know you said that you were battling with the compassion and the truth. So, finding a way to combine the two might be the best way. But I think that being the good news for me in how I treat people and how I love them is what's most important in my faith.
>> Um, I think my biggest takeaway is to I didn't come here to tussle. I came here to connect. And I think that it makes me a little sad that it's hard to have conversations without it turning into kind of like a little bit of a tussle. And um and what I hope is that we'll be able to like I mean I think this is great that we're able to like have this start and be able to forge forward as hopefully a country and be able to talk to each other and be able to lead with love and compassion. Um, and I just think that the blame that I hear a lot on both sides, um, the judgment that I hear a lot on both sides, it just keeps us from being able to have beautiful moments like this where we're able to come together and talk. And so my deep wish is to kind of, um, get to a place where more of this is happening and that we can suffer with each other. Like that's what compassion means is to suffer with each other. And we can um, I'm sorry, I'm getting long. My brain is getting let's see I'm just love the fact that we can in this day and age be women that speaks our speak our mind and listen to each other and show that it's possible for us to come together.
>> Yeah. Um, I'm I'm taking away from this. Um, the one thing that is kind of sticking with me is understanding that regardless of what side of the aisle you're you're on, um, this whole conservative versus democratic thing is so in the end is going to be so irrelevant
>> to life. It it's it's such a a a new construct, you know, it's like a couple hundred years when we've been here for however many, you know, hundreds of thousands of years. Um, I I I keep kind of coming back to the scripture and and this is to me it's like the most terrifying scripture in the entire Bible that I never want to hear God look at me on the day of judgment and say that I never knew you. I never even knew you. And you're standing before him saying, "But but I prophesied in your name and I preached, you know, on behalf of you." And I I think that there are so many people um on both sides of the aisle. It it's not that you voting Republican gets you a ticket. And I I think that there's there has to be that working out your own soul salvation with that fear and trembling that you have to understand that even if you feel that you have arrived at some point and there there's there's this I have to say and I say this in love also that there is very often this kind of arrogance and elitism elitism that I feel from Republican Christians that because I'm on this side of the aisle that I have missed God. And in that judgment in and of itself, you actually have missed him.
>> That's that's what I take away with. I just But I appreciate all my sisters in Christ here regardless of what you know what we believe. Thank you. Thank you for being here and for being open and having this conversation. I know it's not easy, but I appreciate that we were able to have it. And I hope that you listening at home were able to glean something from this. And let us know in the comments what your thoughts are on the things that we discussed. Until next time. Bye-bye.
>> Thank you, lady.
>> Yay.
>> I wish we had more time. like an hour.