Veteran Benzodiazepine Injury Coach | Interview with Dr. Jenn Leigh

We got it. Okay, hello. I'm Dr. Joseph with Durrant and we have a really special guest today. We have Dr. Jennifer Leigh here. Um for those of for those of you who don't know her, I would say uh Dr. Jen probably has more experience than I would say the majority of people. I mean, she's right up there in like the top one, two, or three when it comes to helping people um taper off benzodiazepine medications, cope with the um unbelievable uh pain and discomfort of it. And uh the other really nice thing about Dr. Jen is that, you know, she has gone through this herself. She has survived a benzodiazepine withdrawal. And she's also been doing this for a long time. I think it's been about a decade now. So, um without further ado, I'm going to turn it over to Dr. Jen. Please go ahead, fill in some gaps, introduce yourself, and then after you've done that, um I'd like you to uh share a little bit about uh your own benzo injury and kind of how that played out.

Sure. Well, thank you, Dr. Joseph. It's always good to sit and have this conversation with you. I really appreciate it. And we certainly appreciate what you're doing in the benzo community for us. So, thank you for that. Well, for those that don't know me, uh I'm Dr. Jennifer Leigh, but everybody just calls me Dr. Jen. And I have been in the benzo community for 12 years. And I came to the community because I myself had been damaged. I had been put on a benzodiazepine in my mid-30s. So, I was on Klonopin as prescribed for about 18 years. And I was getting sicker and sicker and sicker as some of us do in um tolerance withdrawal. I'll say it inner dose withdrawal. And I would go to cardiologist and neurologist and audiologist cuz my ears were messed up. I mean, I got all sorts of diagnoses. Um um I was told I had chronic fatigue, I was told I had Lyme. Nobody could tell me what was wrong with me and eventually um eventually I just had to kind of figure it all out on my own, but my path to to to getting off of the drug was that I had been drinking way too much. I think some of that because of the interdose withdrawal, but also because I just I'm an alcoholic. And it was I went to AA and got sober and a week after I um decided I needed to get off of my benzodiazepine. And even though I had earned a doctorate in psychology, had some post-doc training, and you know, felt like I had this wonderful wonderful career uh that started late in life. I was on radio and TV. I was being vetted for my own reality show. Psychology Today asked me to to be an online contributor. Uh interviewed in magazines and by New York Times and Reuters and whatnot. I My my star was just rising up into the heavens after I got my doctorate. So, I I felt like I was you know, I was pretty savvy and and had had, you know, stuff together, but but, you know, had this this issue with drinking every night not knowing that it was the Klonopin. Anyway, I just kind of wanted to give you a background of of how I kind of came to it all. And so, got sober, and then said, "I want to I don't want to take this anymore. I've been doing it for 18 years. I don't think I really need it. I want to be clean and sober." And I went to a doctor and like so many of the doctors, the vast majority of doctors are so uneducated about benzodiazepines, their dangers, their harms, and the whole syndrome, you know, how to get off and the whole syndrome, um what we now are calling bind, benzodiazepine-induced neurological dysfunction. So, I was told to get off the drug really quickly and thumbnail version, I came down very quickly per their instructions, was bedridden, really sick, pain, I couldn't take care of myself. Another doctor, and by the way, every doctor I saw said, "Oh, I know about benzos." So, you trust them. Tapered me back up to almost my dose and I got a little more stable, then started coming down a little more slowly, but even at like .6 something of clonazepam, I was more sick than when I was down in the .3s cuz of that phenomenon called kindling. So, I saw another doctor and I was using a walker and a cane. I mean, I was really in bad shape, really bad shape. Um and he said, "Oh, I do this all the time. I'll give you some phenobarbital. You'll go home. You're on such a low dose, it's not even clinically significant. And um you'll detox for a few days at home and you'll be fine." After 8 months of this tapering process and being so sick, of course, I wanted to believe him cuz I wasn't able to work all, you know, at that all that time. And so, that's what I did. And 3 days later, after my last dose, they had to rush me to the emergency room. I could barely walk. I remember a friend I was kind of like collapsed on her, got me into the emergency room and I was admitted to the hospital for a week and what I went through that first week off, seriously, not to be like a drama queen, but no human being should have to experience what we experience, many of us experience from a cold turkey. Um and of course, my doctor's saying, "Oh, I've never seen this before." And they had to keep upping the phenobarbital. They were afraid I'd have a seizure. And after a week, they sent me home and I lived in an altered reality of fear and terror. I was hallucinating. I hallucinated for about 6 weeks. Pain, burning, tingling, disequilibrium, tinnitus, floaty-boaty, just all the classic withdrawal symptoms. And it took me a long time to get better, and I was in and out of some lockdown wards because I live alone, and it was really difficult to navigate on my own, but also I didn't know then, you know, 12 years ago, what I know now. I mean, there was benzo buddies, um but there just wasn't a whole lot of information. I I did reach out to Bliss. I know a lot of people know Bliss. She did talk to me sometimes, but I would sometimes start to believe that the doctors were right that I was just maybe crazy without my medication. But of course, that's not true. So, I had to navigate that, and I was bedridden a lot, in severe pain. Um the intrusive thoughts, I think I'm the poster girl for the intrusive thoughts around death and dying. And it was torture for quite some time. It took me, and I know my story scares people, took me about 8 years for me to really say, I think I'm done with it. Now, that doesn't mean that I was suffering every day for 10 years, and then you know, miraculously it all got better. I was traveling, I was dating, I was, you know, enjoying family, but I still had some lingering symptoms. You know, I was working, I was helping others, but I still had some lingering symptoms. So, about 8 years into it, I could say the last of the tingling, the last of kind of the disequilibrium, all of that faded away. And I'm still here in the community. There have been many times when I thought I Well, in the beginning, I thought, oh, I'll go back to my other coaching cuz it was really fun and like stupid money lucrative, I have to say. Um But whatever that is that's greater than us said no, I need you here. And I just and and I've had a couple of setbacks and gotten sick and I've I've closed down the website every once in a while. My website's been to withdrawalhelp.com because I was so sick and I said, you know, I just can't listen to all this suffering. I'm going to walk away, but I can't because I just morally can't because I know so much about what works and what doesn't work and the doctors don't know that and I'm I just morally can't walk away from this community because I feel like I'm looking at somebody trapped in a burning car and I've got the jaws of life and a fire extinguisher. How do you walk away? I mean, I just can't. So, I'm still in the community. I think I'll always be in this community. I love this community. I love I I just have such They're my family. All my clients, they're my family. So, anyway, that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Thank you for that overview. Um and you know, that I like the analogy of the you know, the jaws of life there and and I also feel like you know, having counseled uh a fair number of people now who've been going through this, I mean, the way you describe it as torture is correct, you know, sometimes talking to people in the middle of the night, you know, scared out of their wits thinking they're never going to survive. I mean, that that is frequent. I'd say that's par for the course for people. And if you've been through that kind of torture that um you know, goes on for you know, years at a time sometimes and almost unbearable just you know, described as essentially living hell I could see how it would be hard to turn away from that cuz you go, I've been there. I know I know what that's like and I know how helpful it would be to have someone there who could I guess just have compassion for you in that state. So Yeah, thank you. Yeah, you are an asset to the community and it's great and it's great that you stuck around. Um I I think a nice not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. So I think a nice thing um to talk about would I guess to start off would be um how long have you been coaching now if you were going to put it in years? Was that 12 years? Did I hear that right? Or

Well, I started I started my journey at 12 years. It'll be 13 years this October. Mhm. Um so I didn't really coach the first little bit, but I started I started helping there was a website called uh benzo-withdrawal.com and it was very much kind of like benzo buddies. So I started actually helping some people in there just because that's you know, I'm trained as you know, with my education and and trained in coaching. That's just that's just me. That's my personality. So I started trying to help some people in there. I wasn't getting paid for it, but I was just naturally bringing my skill set to that. And you know, then I went through all of my horror stuff trying to get off and I can't remember when I opened up my website, but then I started working with people as a coach off and on and it just kind of started snowballing. So I've been in this community 12 years and I've been helping for 12 years.

If you were to estimate, how many people do you think you've you've helped through their benzo withdrawal? I don't know if it's if you could if you could peg it somewhere.

Thousands. Thousands. Thou- I've you know, maybe I've only talked to somebody just one time, but but that counts and over the 12 years it's I'm sure a couple of thousand.

Okay. And especially when you look at just all the emails, I I can't answer emails personally anymore about symptoms, but for the longest time I would, you know, I'd carve out time every day and I would answer people that I've never, you know, people from Japan, people from you know, the Philippines, people I didn't even know would be reaching out. And so, you know, they count too of me replying to them. I force unfortunately don't have the time to do that anymore, but I've talked to so many people. I think I really have a good idea from my lived experience and talking to so many people kind of the way this recovery process goes. Mhm.

Well, that is a a great segue cuz I want to ask you about um what you think is the clinical course of recovery from protracted withdrawal because you know, if you're online, I mean, you can see things on benzobuddies.com, right? You know, there's people who have been suffering for for 8 years, sometimes longer, but then there's also some people who seem to do quite well after, you know, a year, 18 months, something like that and it resolves fairly quickly. So, while keeping in mind the fact that there is no uh you know, uniform course for this, I mean, if you were going to break it down, how many people do you think um I guess I would say recover in, you know, under 2 years, you know, versus maybe two to two to six and then six plus, you know, if you're going to break it down percentage-wise just just from what you're seeing and and when you talk to people. I don't know if it's if you could estimate that cuz people always ask me, they go, "How long is this going to last?" And I'm and I go, "Well, you know, I've been doing this for about 3 years, but um I should talk to Dr. Jen, you know, she's been at this a bit longer." So, I'd love to get your thoughts on on kind of what what you think about that.

Sure, it's a great question. And the answer is there's no predictability. Everybody is so exquisitely unique. Their gut microbiome, their skill set, their psychology, their past trauma. Um are they you know, I'm a huge advocate for the four cornerstones of well-being, eat right, move enough, stress less, love well. Cuz all of those things work synergistically together to give us the best foundation for health and happiness. And that's for anybody, not just people in benzo withdrawal. But there is no way to predict we we don't we don't have anything that says, well, if you were on it this long or you took this much or this particular benzo or if you've got this cluster of symptoms, it means this down the road. I've seen people that I thought personally were going to take, you know, a long time and they don't. And then I've seen other people that that got off relatively unscathed, they didn't have a whole lot of symptoms, but it's 2 years later and they still have some of those symptoms. So, I've been surprised by some of you know, by what I see. So, I don't I can't say a percentage of people get well here and here cuz one one thing we have to realize is the people that call me that are going to spend the money to talk to me. Exactly. I'm getting I'm getting that upper tier of people that are really sick. And then sometimes I have had clients that call and I'll work with them for a few months and then I don't hear from them. And then 2 years later I'll get an email saying, oh, you know, Dr. Jen, do you remember me? You know, I worked with you for a few months and you know, around 10 months, I felt so much better. I just didn't need you anymore and I just want to thank you for everything. So, I Sometimes people just, you know, I don't hear from them anymore and I don't know, are they still sick? Did they get better? Are they working with somebody else? So, there's no way for me to give you a percentage, but what I can say is we eventually all heal. I believe that with every fiber in my existence. Mhm. I've just talked to too many people that get well and you go on to live a great life and especially if you live those four cornerstones they're going to help rewire your brain and your nervous system and heal your gut microbiome and you're probably not going to have your pre-existing condition once you get well or if you do it'll be so child's play compared to what you know you've had to go through with benzo withdrawal that you won't even think about oh let me go get a pill for this. So I see remarkable positive things on the other side and I really want people to know that that you know you suffer it is hard it is torture at times but what we get at the end of this is a much better quality of life in my opinion.

Okay. So a lot of I think a lot of what we do is we're kind of containers. You know we people come to us and their life is in disorder and we kind of need to just kind of keep them moving forward because like you said time time does heal all and I really agree with that sentiment and that's what I'm seeing as well. And so I mean, you come at this from a psychotherapeutic perspective and so tell us a little bit about what you've learned over the last decade working with these people trying to coach them through tolerating I mean agony you know torture like symptoms that have completely derailed their life you know they've taken spouses and jobs and you know careers away from people. So how do you what have you learned um kind of keeping people going you know during this like what kind of techniques and and all of that I'd love to to hear how you approach that.

Oh yeah sure and you know I understand the loss. I went down to zero in my bank account. I was on food stamps. My family, my parents and my four children kept me from being homeless. I mean, cuz I couldn't work for so long and um so I get that. I mean, it's it's really hard on it's just hard on us in so many ways. So, the things that I learned over time and I didn't have the skill set in the very beginning, but what I learned over time, um of course the four cornerstones, ex- specially understanding polyvagal theory and working with our nervous system and and the that stress less, the third cornerstone, and the fourth one being love in the world cuz compassion, kindness, generosity, gratitude, forgiveness, acceptance, patience, um curiosity, awe, wonder, service to others, grace, those types of things actually grow more connectivity to the two pro- two of the prosocial regions in our brain that keep anxiety and depression at bay. So, again, I'm a huge advocate for the four cornerstones because they're going to help us heal in all the ways we need to be healed. But, I know when you're in the thick of it, like, you know, you're like, "Yeah, that's great, four cornerstones, but what what can I do right here?" Yeah, so these are the things that helped me. Um I have three things that pop into mind. Um and I've shared this so many times. I eventually learned how to do this gentle rocking, left to right, not this cuz this is what we do when we're cold or scared or agitated. It's this gentle left to right. And then I would just do this really calming gentle stroking and I would say, "I've been here before. I'm safe. I've been here before." Meaning, I had this symptom, I survived it. Because if you say to yourself, "I'm not dying." The brain just overlooks the word not and it goes, "What? We're dying?" Or dangerous, you want to always speak to yourself in a positive light. So, I would say, "I've been here before and I can't tell you how many times I had to utilize that through some really gnarly panic attacks and terror attacks." So, that helped quite a bit. Um the other thing I learned was I would just go in my mind breath, thought, hands. So, when I was just really struggling with a symptom, whether it was just really bad pain or just that anxiety where you feel like you're just going to burst open, you've got so much electricity and just uh whatever that is in your body, I would just pause. I would just have to kind of like carve out a little emotional space and I'd say, "Breath, thought, hands." So, I would check my breathing. Is it way up here? And it's really shallow. Am I hyperventilating? So, I would go low and slow. Just try my best to lower my breathing down into my diaphragm, do calming breaths, you know, do some box breathing, you know, four inhale pause, you know, four exhale, four pause. And then I would just say, "Okay, I'd I'd work with my breath first." And I'd look at my thoughts. Okay, what are my thoughts? And usually in benzo withdrawal or bind, they're going to be negative because of that phenomenon state driving story. Our nervous system is or in our neuroendocrine system is generating all this negativity because in the protect state of fight, flight, or freeze, I mean, that's just that's what it generates. It's all this negativity. It's that protect stuff. It's all about me. It's that inward focus. So, I would try to carve out a little space and go look at my thoughts. And if they were really negative, which they usually were, I would just have to remind myself, "They're thoughts. They're not facts. And my thoughts are just a body function, just like if I sneeze, hiccup, blink, burp, farted. So, I used to tell myself my thoughts are no more significant than my farts. They're just a body function. And that kind of helped me get a little bit of distance instead of feeling like my thoughts are me and I have to believe them and act on them like I could separate. And then the next was hands, get my hands busy. Because the mind will often follow the hands. And if you can do if you can learn something new, that's wonderful cuz the brain is so busy creating all these new neuronal connections and networks around this learned thing that is taking the spotlight off of your suffering. So, breath, thought, hands, this rocking, that that really helped. Um that helped quite a bit. Um I also did just some gentle stroking all over my body, just very very gently. And then the one that I I always telling my clients about four things. Patience, acceptance, gratitude, and distraction. If you can find a way write those words down and find a way to make sense of them in the here and now right now in your mind, body, and spirit, that will help. So, those are just some of the things. But of course, there's things like you can take a warm bath, but just no Epsom salts. You can take a gentle walk, you can reach out, you know, and get a hug. And sometimes, honestly, Dr. Joseph, some of the best things to do is just to curl up in a ball in a fetal position and just have a good cry. Mhm.

That's um that's that's great to to hear that. So, I was wondering um you know, this thing about patience, acceptance, and gratitude. And And what was the last one there?

Distraction.

Distract distraction. Um I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, where that came from, and and how how you ended up kind of adopting that as a pillar.

I don't exactly know the genesis of it. I just know over time I realized I was intuitively doing those things. And and so then I just made it a concrete practice and I still do this. I mean even though I'm no longer in bind, I'm still a human being and life is still happening with some things that, you know, that are scary. I've got 93-year-old parents, you know, so I still practice this to this day. Um Mhm. But we know acceptance you don't have to like what's going on. But if you're fighting it you're making things worse because you're just pouring more fuel on the fire of that protect state. So the more that we can just let go and accept I'm in benzo withdrawal or I in bind, this is what's on my plate right now. And the more that we can accept that and stop fighting it, the better off our nervous system will be.

Do you find you have to I was going to say do you have to do you find you have to help people through a morning process of I guess losing their lives and their prior self before they can arrive to this place of acceptance cuz I, you know, I hear so many of these comments like, you know, people caught up in thoughts of of who they used to be, you know, and and it's and it's a really um gosh, it's a depressing place to be when, you know, when when you're stuck there about all of the things that were going well and and and all of that. I'd like um yeah, I want I wonder if that's been your your experience, you know, helping people mourn what they've lost.

Absolutely. And and just because I say these are four things to do, acceptance, you know, patience, gratitude, and distraction, I'm not saying that they're easy. I'm just saying that they are helpful tools, but but they they can be quite a challenge to actually really, you know, live your way deeply into them, but it's a good thing to try. Yes, people are mourning who they used to be. I certainly did. I mean, I lost a a career that was really just I mean, I was this just rising star. I mean, I had two different producers calling me for my vetting me for my very own reality show based on my work with teen girls. I was the nation's go-to expert, so to speak, about teen girls. And I lost all of that. So, I understand what that's like and you certainly It's not only that you've lost your standing in the community or your family or career, but for some of us, I just felt like I had been eviscerated. I didn't know who I was. Do I like this? Do I like that? I I I There was no Jennifer left. I was just It was horrible. So, yes, I think we do need to mourn that. And I But I think But I think we want to be very careful about that that we we want to go through that process, but we don't want to get stuck there and wallow in self-pity and keep that going. So, it's a really fine line and it's a real balance, but I do try to help people and I will sit in the darkest, deepest pit with them and metaphorically hold their hand and put my arm around them and say, "I will listen and I will be here with you. You're not alone." But at some point then, we also have to say, "Okay, we've been down here in this pit for a while. Let's try to start, you know, navigating our way out of it." If that makes sense.

Totally. Totally. Um I mean, that yeah, there's so much suffering and yeah, you can lose your careers, but people also lose their sense of identity, you know. I used to be this motivated person. I used to be this creative person. You know, creativity would flow up through me and I'd go out and do these things in the world and then you know, they're cognitively damaged for several years and they feel like they're living through a fog and it's like, "Who am I?" anymore. It's um I mean, it's so it's it's so many things at once. Um Right.

Not everybody Not everybody is cognitively impaired for years, though. I just I know this interview is probably going to be triggering some people. So, I just want to cuz we're talking about like the worst of the worst case scenario. So, some people do you know, it comes back more quickly. But, you are right. There are some of us that it takes a bit longer. And and I know people worry about that and um like I mean, they're tortured by that idea that they're never going to be whole again. So, you know, for those of you that just got triggered, I just want to let you know we really do get well and we get our creativity back. We get our intelligence and and and more, I think, on the other side. But, yeah, for some of us it's it takes a while to get there. But, tell us a little bit about the more. You know, how do you think this experience of I I guess going through that amount of suffering brought more to your life?

Uh gosh. I hear this from my clients, too. In fact, we just had uh one of my old clients named Mike. He came He's been in my as a guest speaker in my uh support group here with Dr. Jen uh twice now and that's his story as well. So, there's something about going through a really dark time of suffering. I think there's two choices or two options. We either let it damage us to the point where we come out of it and we're just resentful and pissed off. Life shouldn't have done that, you know, I didn't deserve that. And we carry this chip on our shoulder and we lug this bag of grudge and resentment around. But, then there's this other option and that is to let this experience grow us and stretch us and expand us. And especially if we live these four cornerstones cuz that third and fourth cornerstone are just so powerful for this. We can't help but be transformed for the better by this. I no longer carry around all my old childhood trauma, all the sexual abuse, um, you know, there was a pedophile in my neighborhood. I don't have flashbacks. I don't even think about anymore. I don't have my pre-existing anxiety or my pre-existing I, you know, anxiety disorder. I no longer have panic attacks. I I I've been sober for 12 years. Um, can't imagine, you know, having a having another drink ever. So, I am I am just the best version of myself. And especially since there's no way out but through, there's no pill, there's no potion, there's no surgery, there's no treatment, we have to look to ourselves for our strength and our comfort and our resource and you just began, hopefully, to really learn to love yourself and nurture yourself and take care of yourself and you come out on the other end with this amazing amount of confidence. If you're not lugging around this bag of resentment, um, and anger and frustration, that you just go, "Wow, I got through that." And you just feel so much better. You feel whole. Like I said, I feel so confident. But then this other thing happens and you realize you've got this larger capacity for compassion for what other people are going through. You have a larger capacity for joy. I think because I drank at the well of suffering for so long that now just a raindrop of joy is like a flood. I mean, it's amazing what happens to, I think, most of us to some degree that we come out of this transformed in a much better way. Now, I do have some clients that just couldn't just couldn't and you know, I feel so bad for them that they're they're they're out of benzo withdrawal, but they're stuck in this you know, woe is me, the world did me dirty and my heart breaks for them because that's a choice that they're making and I wish I just wish that they could like pull away from that and let that go because this other beautiful thing is on this other side.

Wow. Um That is that is a really motivating message. Um I want to um understand your four pillars a little bit more. With Were these four pillars something that you came up with in your practice or were they something that you learned about along your journey?

I learned about them eight years into my recovery. I instinctively was doing some of them. Didn't really have a label for them, but one of the things really early in my recovery was I because I had so much fear and anxiety and terror that I just it was chemical. I just couldn't get away from it. It was not my pre-existing. But I said, well, what what gets rid of fear? And the only thing that I knew was love. So, early on, I remember telling my girlfriend, I said, I'm just going to keep turning to love. That's who I'm going to be in the world. I'm going to be a loving person. I'm just going to keep turning to love. That was the only way out was love. And that's the fourth cornerstone. And so and it bleeds over or you know, seeps over into the and the third cornerstone of reducing stress and whatnot. But so I didn't have them labeled, but at eight years, I heard I think it was Dr. Bernard talking about these things, but his fourth one was it was kind of love well, but it was more about connection like relationships as and then I realized knowing what I know about polyvagal theory, it just you know, it was a short little journey to go, oh, you've got to be loving the world. So, it's eat right, which is a whole food plant-based diet. And I know you can look at any diet and pull out there a good thing here and there, but there's no other diet in the world that reduces heart disease, and there's no other diet in the world that if you look at people's longevity, you know, if you're looking at, you know, the long studies, it's the plant-based eaters every, you know, less everything. So, it's eat right, a whole food plant-based diet. It's also going to heal our gut microbiome. Um, move enough. And that's really important in benzo withdrawal to understand that word enough because we do become exercise intolerant, and too much exercise is going to, you know, raise our levels of stress hormones and make us worse. So, we've got to find our Goldilocks lane in benzo withdrawal, and it can be a moving target. One day you can, you know, walk around the block, the next next day you can't. So, you it's, you know, you got to evaluate every day. Move enough. The next one is stress less, and the fourth cornerstone is love well. When I really wrapped my head around all of that and really started living that, I became plant-based. It'll be 4 years this first part of June. My life changed radically. I mean, really radically. And so much so that I went back to Cornell. I I 2 years ago I got certified plant-based nutrition from Cornell University. I've done a deep dive into the gut microbiome. I've studied more with Dr. Mark Brady, who's a social neuroscientist, understanding you know, uh, our brain polyvagal theory. Um, I now get up at 4:00 in the morning. I'm in the gym for an hour. I've got a trainer. Like, I am really walking my talk. And my clients who embrace those four cornerstones, I I that I could say that it's like a a a magic wand and they get better immediately. It's not. But I notice that their symptoms are less, they're suffering less. And if they you know, get off of that, they'll call me and go, "Oh, I got to get back to them, you know, I'm I'm back, you know, being more symptomatic." So, I've seen it clinically make a difference in my clients.

Well, okay. Lots of questions that I have to follow up. Who is Dr. Bernard? Is

Um, he is one of the doctors in the plant-based community. I think the best is Dr. Michael Greger. He's got a website nutritionfacts.org. I think he's one of the leading researchers on everything about nutrition. But Dr. Bernard And or might have been Dr. Ornish, Dean Ornish. Might have been a talk that he gave. So, I kind of heard some of it and then I firmed them up into these pillars.

Okay. And tell me about the polyvagal theory. That's not something I've come across before, but it sounds like it's plays quite a part in your treatment approach.

Yeah, Dr. Stephen Porges. Uh, it's his research and basically what they've looked at There was a lot of studying with the vagus nerve was that Excuse me, our nervous system can find itself into two different places. Our default is called the connect state. So, we it's pro-social. We can connect to the world and people and places and things around us positively. Scientists call that state rest, digest, renew. And it is a parasympathetic ventral vagal response. That's where we want to be. That's where we're the healthiest. Everything's working optimally. You know, everything's good. The other opposite of that is the protect state, a sympathetic fight or flight or parasympathetic ventral vagal response, freeze. And when we're there, it's an inward focus. It's, you know, I need to protect myself whether it's from a physical threat or an emotional threat. So, like if anybody judges you or evaluates you, every human being goes into this protect state. Or if somebody's arguing with you, you've got to defend your belief, that's coming from this protect state. And it's once you understand that it is and you understand that state drives story. So, if you're in the connect state, you're going to have positive thoughts and feelings. And if you're in the protect state, probably not so much, probably more negative uh thoughts and feelings. So, just understanding that benzo withdrawal causes people to remain most of the time in that protect state cuz you don't have enough of the inhibitory system working to move you over into ventral vagal. And that's where a lot of the um negativity comes from, you know, just all of that dark stuff. And so, we have to remember it's just state driving story. It's you know, the world is still this amazing place and life is still wonderful, but our nervous system is in this protect state generating all these thoughts and feelings that are negative. Yeah, my life changed just by learning state drives story. It set me free in an amazing way.

I I I think that there's so many corollaries between the kind of suffering in this benzo withdrawal and PTSD. And obviously, you know, the benzo withdrawal can cause a type of trauma as well just going through that, but it's you know, people who have been you know, they've gone through you know, sexual trauma, physical abuse, neglect, things like that. Um it it it changes their brain. You know, essentially, they find themselves after you know, enduring years of this hardship and stress and fear, they are stuck in that negative mindset. And you know, everything is a threat and everything is um kind of out to get them and their lives become smaller. You know, it's um and so state really, you know, you see state drive story in PTSD and you try and get people to um uh you know, like like you said um open up to the world, but you know, it it it is so biological, like you said as well. It's like you you I feel like you cannot just approach this type of um these things with with psychotherapy alone, which is why I like um you know, you talk about the different ways you can um change your um your parasympathetic tone, whether it's by rocking and, you know, giving yourself reassuring feedback or whether it's by slowing your breath down, so you're giving those um signals of calm uh back up to your brain. It's uh it really does sound like a whole, you know, much of your approach is really taking people from this threatened state and putting them in a more comforting state where not only do they feel less pain because they're less anxious, but also they're in a better place psychologically to um uh get more out of their life, you know, whether it's, you know, they're going to go and do things they wouldn't normally do, you know, they're going to maybe have healthier relationships, be more forgiving towards others and so um I think it's yeah, I mean, I I would just wholeheartedly kind of um agree that, you know, learning how to change your state would just have all of these benefits, but I've never quite heard someone describe it the way you did, so I think that's really neat.

Yeah. Well, and I think it's important for people to realize in benzo withdrawal, it's going to be really hard to change your state because this isn't a software problem, this is a hardware problem. It's just like if you had a broken leg, you can't just say, "Oh, I'm just going to go run the Boston Marathon." You got to wait for your leg to heal. So, we're going to have negative thoughts and depression and anxiety and all that comes with it because we have a broken nervous system. But, the more that we can be aware that our lived experience is from this broken nervous system and it's not us, it's not our innate consciousness and our being that it's caused from this hardware, and we get a little, you know, we get that little space, I think that is you know, that's really helpful. And I so agree that you know, I studied trauma under I was so lucky. I studied under two of the top traumatologist, Dr. Peter Levine and Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. Um when I was earning my my my doctorate. And you know, you and I both know that talk therapy doesn't help you move through trauma. It's reenactment without resolution. So, we need to bring the body into it. And that's why some of the rocking and there's some other thing, you know, there are lots of things that we can do. Um can be so helpful. The good news, I think, about the kind of trauma that we experience in benzo withdrawal, once we get more healed and we get past that I'm sort of healed, but I'm having windows, but I'm still getting some waves, and we're kind of always looking over our shoulder a little, you know, hypervigilant. Once we get to that stage and we're just really smooth sailing into recovery, I have never had somebody call me up or email me and say, "I have PTSD from having gone through this experience and I can't I can't get well." Um So, I they've learned the skills, right? They, you know,

Well, yeah. Well, I mean, so I just want people to know that this is this is not like you've been to war or you've had sexual abuse or, you know, whatever other type of trauma. This is a horrific experience, no doubt, but it doesn't stay with us. We really do get well. The receptors upregulate, we get healthy, and we move on. Mhm.

And I like that idea of um you know, hav- having the unders- using the understanding of what we believe to be the biology of this um to to get gain a new perspective on it because you know, when if your brain is hijacked by just surges of adrenaline and cortisol because, you know, it's just malfunctioning. Um you know, the mind the mind comes from what's happening in the brain. And if if you can't get that space, you start to think, "Yeah, you know, I am my thoughts, you know, my wife is going to leave me. I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to end up homeless. I I might as well like end myself." But there is also something very reassuring of saying, "Actually, I know this. You know, this is typical for the condition. I'm having surges of adrenaline, and it's trying to hijack my mind. And, you know, when I'm in this state, I start having these crazy thoughts that nothing's ever going to be better. And um I think you know, all of these little skills and you know, these perspectives that you're offering, you know, will help people um soothe themselves because unless you have that space that this is something happening chemically inside of you. Um and I mean, there's other stresses that come along with it, but usually the driving force is is the injury. Unless you have that space, then it it is almost you you're just on a ride pretty much. Um and and it'll just take you to to hell. Um So, mhm. Yeah, I think creating that space and just learning state's driving story is really really helpful to realize. And I did a video on it. It's not you, it's the drug cuz this is not who we are. Um and I think it's better if we don't argue with those thoughts. You know, to try to like if we're in a court of law, we're going to be the lawyer and and try to defend ourselves. Like, you know, my thoughts would tell me, "You know, I'm never going to amount to anything. I've always been a loser. You know, I'm just going to be a failure." And then if I would try to give evidence why that was wrong, oh my gosh, it would just come roaring back with even worse stuff. And it would just make stuff up, too. So, just neutral observer. Just neutral observer is really helpful. And what's also helpful if somebody's really in a bad place and they just can't get a handle on it and that fear and tears overwhelming it. I certainly experienced that many times. You know, we know the golden rule of social neuroscience is a regulated nervous system will co-regulate a dysregulated nervous system. And what that translates to is be around somebody that you feel safe with. Safety is the prescription for everything. Because when we feel safe, that's when our nervous system moves over into our default state, the ventral vagal response that we want. So, if if nothing if none of the coping mechanisms are working, find a way to reach out to be with somebody that you trust, somebody that is not going to tell you it's all in your head, you know, think think good thoughts and you know, a little pixie dust and unicorn and leprechauns, but somebody who really has some compassion for where you at where you're at. Because just being in connection with another person, whether that's FaceTime, um, you know, or in person, however it's going to end up,

That can help move our nervous system more towards that ventral vagal. Safety is the prescription for everything, and connection is a biological imperative. Right.

Yeah, uh, really good, really good advice. Um, I, you know, through my role, I guess, being, I guess being a prescriber, you know, I often, you know, people say there's no way I can cope with this, and, and, you know, I need something to help me get through it. Um, I guess as a coach on the other side of this, and this, and just in general, as someone that's had so much experience helping people, what are your thoughts on medication, um, that's used during withdrawal? Um, you know, I guess the pitfalls, you know, the the drawbacks. Has, has it, has it worked wonders for anyone? I, I'd love to get your perspective on how you, how you think about that, 'cause it's, it's, it's something I get asked a lot.

Sure, it's a great question. Mhm. Well, there are no medications that cure benzo withdrawal, that lift us up out of benzo withdrawal. And, and I kind of look at, you know, the old saying, what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. And here we've already been harmed by a psych med. Why do we think that adding another psych med, or two, or three, or four? I mean, some of my clients get poly-drugged. That we're going to have any, any different outcome than to be damaged, you know, by another psych med. Um, I do work with people that are on a couple, you know, another medication, or, or two, or three. Personally, I think if you can do it, I think the best is to try to get through it without any medication. But having said that, if somebody says, "I'm going to end it if I don't sleep," or s- you know, whatever. You know, we don't want that to happen. So, then I think we need to look at the least intrusive types of meds. Like, can you give somebody an antihistamine, you know, to maybe get them to sleep? I know melatonin is on the big website, you know, it's got some GABA issues, but some people do use, um, melatonin. Um, I, I always cringe when I hear that people are being put on gabapentin or Lyrica. They have their own withdrawal since, you know, syndromes, um, or Seroquel. Um, I've got clients trying to get off Seroquel and really struggling. Mirtazapine can be pretty, um, innocuous for some people. It can be really difficult for others. So, I think if people feel like they have to have something, smallest dose, use it as infrequently as possible. Like, I did use mirtazapine maybe like six times. Um, and I used Inderal because I had POTS. So, you know, I had every once in a while, I had to take something as my heart rate was at 180. I was miserable. But I think if we can get through this without a lot of adjunct medications, the better off we'll be. And a lot of, uh, you know, then people go to functional doctors or naturopaths, and they get loaded up on all these supplements and herbs, and they can backfire on us as well. Even, you know, the calming ones, the B12 and the magnesium can put people into orbit. Vitamin D, as in dog, can do the same thing, and fish oil. And no human being, there's so much reliable scientific data about fish oil. Nobody should be taking fish oil. But, so, I think if you can get through it without getting on another medication, that's wonderful. But I know people that listen to this, some of them are going to be, and I don't want to scare anybody. If you are, not the end of the world, you'll eventually, you know, get off those. But if you can avoid going down the medication path, especially the ones that we know can have these, you know, more difficult, um, withdrawal syndromes all on their own, probably the better. And that's my opinion. Because nothing cures benzo withdrawal. Part of time, right?

Yeah, yeah. The four corner zones of well-being help with the gut microbiome and everything else, rewire the brain, and, and, and father time. So, you know, you can put a little band-aid on something, but eventually you're going to have to rip that band-aid off, too. So, I'm, I'm grateful I did try some because I was so desperate. So, no judgment on anybody 'cause I just know that desperation. But, I'm always grateful that everything made me worse, and so that I never had to then deal with coming off another psych med.

Cool. Um, you mentioned the POTS. Um, and so, I wanted to to ask you about your experience of getting some of these more, um, uh, I guess, I guess new emerging, and maybe even, uh, fringe diagnoses. You know, I have people coming to me, I have POTS, I have dysautonomia, I have a mold illness as well. I mean, have you heard similar things from your patients, you know, that they, I, I don't know, they get, they go down these path pathways, and they're seeing like the mold doctor and things like that. I was wondering if you could kind of share your experience, uh, you know, I guess how you deal with that. Do you, do you, do you think people are more, you know, have, have, you know, more sensitivity to mold and maybe some of these other things? Or, I mean, is this like a, just a benzo withdrawal syndrome kind of masquerading as kind of in these other ways that are similar to those conditions?

It's an excellent question. Well, I do know that the dysautonomia, the POTS is a real thing. My heart rate when I stood up would hit 160, 180, and my doctor couldn't, you know, couldn't get a blood pressure reading. Um, it was pretty bad. But, everybody that I know that developed some sort of POTS in withdrawal, it eventually resolves. So, all of these things, you know, go away. I think we are more sensitive to things. I mean, certainly, like we know if you take an antibiotic when you're in benzo withdrawal, that can make things a lot worse. Um, I think chemicals, I mean, just the smell. I remember walking through Home Depot and I was in the fertilizer section, and, you know, just the smell of it, I just started feeling very, very dizzy and, um, disoriented, and I started feeling panicky. Uh, and it wasn't like I was panicky 'cause I was disoriented. I mean, it just, it's just this thing, and, you know, I had to walk out. So, I do know that we are more sensitive. But, I think that personally, I think going down these rabbit holes of, you know, "Now I've got sensitivity to mold," or this or that, trying to cure those things while you're in benzo withdrawal, might not be the best thing to do. Certainly don't want to be going on a lot of antibiotics or a lot of other medications until you're more well. And I do think state striving story, and, you know, the brain's a make-meaning organ, so it's going, "Oh, I have worse symptoms because it's the mold." And I don't know if that's really the case. I think some people are just sick, and they have all these symptoms, and then, you know, then it's like, "Well, this and this and this are making it worse," when maybe they're not. So, I think it's not the right time to go down some of these rabbit holes. Except people maybe that feel like they have some chemical sensitivity. I sensitivity. I know the DNRS program has been helpful for some people, not for others. But, I think we just need to wait till we're more healed, and then really do a reassessment of what's going on, because some of those people then, they feel fine, and they don't, you know, then then they're not looking for these kind of fringe, um, I can't even think of the word I want to use, because they're well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause then they're well.

Yeah, I, I think so. I mean, and then there's also something that, you know, is kind of nasty about protracted withdrawal bind, is, you know, it has this waxing and waning course. So, you might be fine for like two months, and then, like you said, you walk by, maybe you're walking down the street, and, you know, you start to smell some chemicals 'cause pesticides have have gone out, and then the next day you wake up, and you're just, your brain's on fire again. You know, where as humans, we, we kind of juxtapose these things and just go, "Oh, these two things are temporarily related." You know, "Maybe it had something to do with pesticides." And then that happens two weeks later, and you're like, "Are there pesticides around?" You know, and, and, and it's like this thing, you know, this, this little kernel gets stuck in there. Um, and, you know, I have a lot of compassion for these things because it is so confusing, you know, when, when your brain has just been taken over by this thing, and you're fine, and then you're not fine, and so disruptive. So, but that was great. I'm glad that you're seeing these things as well, and I, I agree with with your perspective on that. Um, gosh, I, I want to go on and kind of ask you a little bit about, uh, this new project that you're working on, unless there was anything else that you wanted to discuss with respect to the clinical treatment of protracted bind.

No, but I just want to underscore again, 'cause I know listening to these podcasts can be triggering for people. Dr. Joseph and I have talked about kind of the worst-case scenarios, you know, months and years, and all these, um, you know, very scary symptoms, but I just want people to know that even people that take years to recover, it's usually they're not just in abject terror and suffering and horror for years and years and years. It just means they still have lingering symptoms, and that they, we eventually all get well. And so, I just want to keep reassuring people, you are going to get through this. I know it's frightening, but if you really will keep your heart and your mind open, that beautiful thing that I talked about on the other side is just waiting for you. So, I know it's hard to go through this, but know that the journey is worth it because you're going to be you 2.0, more improved. So, I just want to instill a little bit more of hope and reassurance and comfort that I know these are triggering topics to talk about, but everybody eventually gets well. And not everybody takes, you know, long, long time to get well.

Absolutely. Um, I'm going to backtrack now because now you've kind of jogged my mind about something. I mean, you, you talk a lot about this kind of, um, psychological transformation being really, really important if you're able to get there, where you're able to experience acceptance and gratitude and, you know, see, see the suffering in a new light. And that also, it kind of reminds me of, um, psychedelic medicine, and then some of the the reasons why people use, whether it's MDMA or psilocybin for either PTSD or depression. And I guess my question for you is, uh, have you had any exposure to this in your, um, in your clinical, in your clinical work of people who have done things like that? Was it positive? Was it negative? What, what do you think about it?

Yeah. Um, I think that those, those, um, those substances have their time and their place. I know they've worked, you know, magic, especially for people that have, um, you know, terminal illnesses. I think, I think I do. I think there's magic in them. I really do. They call them magic mushrooms. I, I think they are magic, but I have yet to have a client who did psilocybin or ketamine. I don't know if I've had anybody do MDA. Um, I'm not as familiar with that. Have a positive experience. Um, in like a therapeutic setting with like a counselor? Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally. You know, just, yeah. And, um, I'm They don't regrow. They don't regrow benzo, you know, I mean, GABA receptors. So, we're not going in there with, you know, kind of a psychological issue. This, again, is a hardware. I think we need to get past, and let our brain and nervous system heal, you know, from whatever all the damage is, or 'cause we don't, you know, we talk about GABA receptors. So, we have no idea what's going on, and all this is still kind of in theory, anyway. Um, but, I think we need to wait till we're more healed, and then see, "Do I think that I need something like that?" But, I've yet to hear anything good. And I just want to tuck into, I've had clients get stellate ganglion blocks, stem cells, um, hyperbolic treatment, electric shock therapy, you know, all the different types of amino drips, PICC lines with flumazenil. Nothing takes you out of benzo withdrawal. There is no cure. Most of those things make us worse. It's four corners of well-being to stack the cards in your favor to heal more quickly, and to stay healed, and father time. That's it.

It's a really good summary. Okay. Um, uh, if you're interested, I, I think I will be talking to someone who did have a positive experience on ibogaine, um, who had a benzo injury. I, so, I think they'll, they'll be an interview. He's a, he's an army veteran, who had PTSD, put on a benzo for his PTSD, and then injured. And, uh, but that should be, uh, happening later on this week. So, I, I don't know. That might be any.

I'd love to hear that. Well, you know, and, and I haven't, you know, maybe the people that have good, good outcomes don't, you know, don't have a reason to call up and, and work with me, but I've just not heard, you know, nothing, nothing's really helped people. But you asked about my new project. And I'm so excited. Can I dive in?

Yes.

It's a long time in coming. I've been saying I'm going to be doing this for years, and it's finally here. I am putting together a course for the helping professionals, the, you know, the healthcare workers, whether you're licensed or or unlicensed, you know, a coach, a spiritual director, anybody who wants to understand benzo withdrawal. And it's a, a six-week course. You'll get two CEUs, and you'll get an embeddable certificate that you can put on your website or on your social media, you know, letting people know that you've been through this course, and you're now benzo-wise. You're certified. Uh, the certificate comes from a company called Accredible. And it is going to be everything that I can think of. I've pulled a lot of information off of BIC, they're just such a good wealth of information. Um, and then, you know, all my clinical experience, and my lived experience, and everything that I know about polyvagal theory, and the gut, and health, and diet, whatnot. So, I'm excited to offer that. It's going to roll out sometime late spring, maybe early summer. Uh, I'm still working on it. I still have a few more lessons to put together and polish. But I'm super excited about it. And then, on top of that, I have a new website. I've got one more page to add, but it is live called Thrive with Dr. Jen, and it is for the healthcare community. And so, once a month, the third Wednesday of every month, I host a webinar, so people can come and ask about their benzo withdrawal clients, or other, you know, the four corner zones for them, because there's, in 2020, they did this survey, and just the amount of just stress, and, and just worries, and woes, and depression, and anxiety, and suicide ideation that healthcare workers have been experiencing was just, it's overwhelming. So, I have a webinar once a month for them. I have, just like I have my Heal with Dr. Jen, I now have a Thrive with Dr. Jen Discord group that they can join with weekly, um, live sessions, and coaching, and a lot of good support for them. And then I'll be rolling out more courses. So, I'm finally helping the people damaged, but I want to help the helpers stop damaging people. But also, but also to help them to be, um, as healthy as possible. My mission in life has been for the last few years, it's really simple, to reduce suffering in the world. That's, that's my purpose. That's what I wake up to do. And I'm real excited about this new kind of branch, um, to be able to help the benzo community, kind of by helping the community that's getting them on the drugs in the first place, or telling them it's not benzo withdrawal, and they're harming them, or giving them, you know, adjunct medications, and harming them. So, I'm real ex- I mean, I'm just on fire this year. I'm so excited about it. So, thanks for asking.

Yeah. I mean, Jen, Jen, when I, you know, Dr. Jen, when I talk to you, I mean, you are living your principles, you know, 'cause I don't think you can go and help these prescribers unless you have really come to a place of love, you know, and you, you want to kind of get out there and do that. So, you're an, you're an asset to the community, um, and also to the prescribers, uh, soon. So, really excited to see what you're going to do with, um, with those projects. Um, do you take coaching clients? Are you full, or do you have any availability? How, how would people work with you if they, um, if they wanted to?

Great question. Mhm. My normal business hours are Monday and Tuesday, and they book up fairly quickly. I have urgent times, um, you know, out of office hours, early Monday morning, some Wednesday, and some Friday, and then on Sunday. Um, and I just worked with somebody before I spoke with you. My Sunday time is really expensive. My other urgent client times are more expensive, but I am available one-to-one Mondays and Tuesdays. I book out, so if people want something, I always say, go get it on the books, and if you, you know, if you, I have a 48-hour cancellation prop, um, policy. If you can't make it, you know, if you give me enough time, you know, I'll give you your money back 'cause you have to pay when you book. But, I think one of the best ways to work with me is to join Heal with Dr. Jen. We meet live Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 9:00 Pacific. If you can't make it, it gets recorded. Mondays are check-in, so it's, you know, the wild west of people saying, "I've got these symptoms," and whatnot. Wednesdays and Fridays are topic. They're either suggested by some of the members, or I choose them, and I'll often make slides, and we do little presentations, and the meetings go for about 45 minutes, sometimes closer to an hour. So, you've got that. They're recorded. There's a, there I've got an exclusive data bank where you can go in and put a little code, and find out about a symptom, and the little spiders will go out into the world and find out what I've blogged about it, or other, you know, reputable things about that symptom and how to cope. We've got free courses, free yoga, qigong, arts and crafts, um, music you can listen to playlists. There's so much good, and we focus on the positive. We just don't allow fear-mongering and a lot of, um, you know, symptom talk. Of course, you can come in and talk about your symptoms, but we don't let people wallow in that "I'm never going to get well" and spread a lot of fear in the community. I am so proud of what this community is all about, and it's the, it's, you know, it's the members that have made it. So, that's probably the best way to work with me, um, 'cause you can also DM me. You've just got much more access to me. So, those are, that's the way I'm working right now.

Great. Well, on that note, I think we, I think we'll end. Dr. Jen, thank you so much for agreeing to do this. It was a pleasure talking to you.

Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity, and I so appreciate the interview that you did with Kathy. Thank you. That's a milestone for our community.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to have her lawyer on in a week, so that'll be fun as well, to talk about what people need to know if they're in a situation and they want to pursue a lawsuit. So, that'll be a fun.

Great. Excellent. I will definitely be broadcasting that to my community. Thank you so much for all that you do. I appreciate it.

Okay. Well, Jen, take care. Bye.

You do. Bye-bye.