كارلوس غصن: الصين ستكتسح صناعة السيارات.. والذهب إلى 4000 دولار

I am afraid that if I keep dollars with me, I don't know what the dollar will be worth in five years. People are afraid. They are not talking about silver, I am talking to you about gold too. Do you think it is reasonable to see the level of $4,000 for an ounce of gold? In my opinion, Bitcoin today is superior in cryptocurrency, superior to the banking system. You cannot say that cryptocurrency will not work. No one can say that. Are you afraid for humanity from artificial intelligence? No, no, what is this talk? Everything on earth is in Lebanon. There is something on earth, prices are on the ground, and lands are on the ground. Land and companies are on the ground, everything is on the ground. We need the International Monetary Fund. We are going to the IMF to organize us. But people ask, how do you have the heart to go? 21,000 people. I don't have the heart to go. 21,000 people today, not days, for people like me to hand over a company on the verge of bankruptcy, its losses exceeded $6 billion, and its debts were around $20 billion in just two years. He was able to transfer it to profitability by about $2.7 billion. And after only about six years, he turned it into a surplus of $15 billion. He wiped out all its debts. How was he rewarded with arbitrary arrest, deprivation of civil rights, and even defamation, after all the world's newspapers described him as the most important man in the automotive industry? Carlos Ghosn, former CEO of the Renault-Nissan Alliance. Welcome to CNN Economy. Thank you. Frankly, Mr. Ghosn, you preferred to stay away from the topic of leaving Japan because, as I understand it, you have spoken about it a lot and said all you have to say. I will go directly to the world of cars. Mr. Ghosn, how do you see the future of major companies in the automotive world today, in light of the fierce competition from China, and specifically BYD? First, the speculation from China was evident for a long time, since 2006-2007, when the Chinese state decided to make the automotive industry one of its priorities. It was clear that the Chinese would be a very important factor in the industry. Now, some people heard it and believed it and prepared themselves. Some people mocked the Chinese, saying it would take them about 50 years to reach where they are now. What can I tell you? This industry is always competitive. First, it was between the Americans and the Europeans, then the Japanese, then the Koreans, and now the Chinese. So, there is always a new factor coming. If you are used to changing all the time and adapting all the time, you will succeed. If you want to sit, be afraid, and run away when you get hit, it's like, for example, Renault withdrew from China. Why withdraw from China? If you are facing difficulty, you must face this difficulty because if you run away from difficulty, this difficulty will follow you. It will follow you to Europe, it will follow you wherever Nissan withdrew from Europe because where is the difficulty in Europe? We are talking about the past few years, these three or four years. No one runs away from a difficult market because they want to confront it. So, what I tell you is that the Chinese are here and will remain, and they will become more important in the automotive industry. Companies like BYD, but it's not just BYD, there will be four or five on a global scale. But the traditional companies that will confront, those that run away will disappear. I tell you this now. For example, Toyota, God willing, is confronting. God willing, it will be difficult for them, but God willing. For example, BMW, God willing, Mercedes, God willing. Now, the companies that are afraid, run away, hide in their markets, and ask the state to defend them and impose tariffs and so on, they will disappear. If it takes a year, two years, three years, they will disappear. Mr. Ghosn, do you think the Chinese have overcome the hurdle of consumer trust? Trust in the future is not a theoretical issue. It is in the technology they bring, in the design they bring, in the price they bring, and in the quality and reliability they bring. Correct. And over the years, they have gradually occupied this domain. First, they used to say that cars are not worth it and their design is not good and their technology. Now, you see the latest Chinese industry. I have tried them. The cars that are arriving have reached a level, especially in electric cars, especially in electric cars. They have become competitors at the same level, and they have also advanced a lot in technology. China is no longer the China we thought of 10 or 20 years ago. China today is competing with the Americans, competing with the Germans, and competing with the Japanese. So, we need to forget how the past was because, as you know, the past does not tell you what the future will be. The future you have to see it according to the action being taken and the results coming from these companies. I tell you now that the Chinese will represent a very large portion of the automotive industry in the next ten years, especially electric cars. Under your leadership specifically, Nissan was the first company in the world to make an electric car, specifically called the Leaf, right? What was the mistake the company made so that it is today very far behind the global automotive race? As you know, success is 5% having the right strategy and 95% execution of the strategy. Correct, correct. So, first, you have to choose the right path because if you choose the wrong path, you cannot reach your goal. Then, you have to follow the path. You have to follow it, not stop, rest, change, and diversify. What happened is that Nissan, we did the biggest, most important, and most difficult thing: we decided to go for electric cars. As you know, we decided to do it in 2009 and 2010, and we presented the first mass-market electric car, which was the Leaf. No one else was there. Tesla was starting, and General Motors had a hybrid called an electric car. They all mocked us, saying, "What electric cars?" And if there is no hybrid here, they are all electric cars. But it took more than 15-20 years. What happened? What happened is that after this important push that I started and began to yield results, as you know, the Leaf was the best-selling electric car in the world until 2015, 16, and 17. It was at a competitive price. There was competition from Tesla and competition from other companies, but this car was selling the most in the world. It was followed by the Zoe from Renault in Europe. Unfortunately, those who came after me started, as you know, "Ah, electric cars are good, but let's put some hybrids, and let's put this and that." They compromised. You see how it is. One cannot be at the forefront if they start saying, "Yes, they will start changing their minds and reducing a little here and coming from there." This is what happened, and today we have reached a point where, as you know, BYD, I always take it as an example. BYD, this company did not make cars. When I first went to China in 2002, Nissan focused on China. BYD was making batteries, they were not doing anything, they were not making cars. They started making cars, as you know, in 2006, 2007. Today, BYD is the largest company making electric cars in the world, ahead of Tesla and second in the world. Today, if you see how much it is worth in the stock market, it is worth more than $80 billion in market capitalization. This is 10 times more than Renault and perhaps 15 times more than Nissan. And this is a company that is still growing. It has not been 15 years since it started, compared to companies that have been in cars for 100 years or 70 years. All of this tells you that no one is sure of their future. You have to work on your future all the time and work on it with people who understand this industry. Today, you were commenting on what you are saying. Today, Nissan's stock is down by more than 31% year-to-date. Renault is also going through a very big crisis. What is your strategy today if you were still at the head of this alliance? What is Carlos Ghosn's strategy to support the stock price and regain investor confidence? First, if I were still the head of the alliance between Renault, Nissan, and Mitsubishi, you are forgetting Mitsubishi, but Mitsubishi was also in trouble. And now its situation is dire. If I were, they would not have reached this point. Frankly, they would not have reached this financial and economic decline. None of that would have happened for one reason: when I trusted these three companies, there was no year of difficulty. There was no year of difficulty. There was always progress. Sales progress, results progress, strategic progress, and technological progress. As you know, we were the first company to enter electric cars, among the first companies to go for autonomous cars, which are now called robotaxis. We were among the first companies to develop connected cars. So, we were in all fields. We were at the forefront and at the most important position in the automotive industry until 2018. From 2018 until what happened, as you know, the issue was ruined. And always, always the issue is management, always management weakness. Do not try to understand what is happening. Always, when a company starts to falter, or a country starts to falter, or whatever starts to falter, you know that the problem from the beginning comes from management. Of course, always. More than the general economic situation? The general economic situation is made by people. Correct. When you ruin the economy, you are ruining it, and you are fixing it yourself. Companies add something, then this is a challenge for all companies. Why did some companies succeed and some are faltering? The only difference is their management. There is nothing else. I want to tell you again that the first thing you need to do to stabilize the stock is to restore confidence. If there is no confidence, no one will go to the stock. Nissan's stock, you are talking about it today. Nissan's stock is less than two dollars. The stock is correct, close to 2008 levels. Yes. When I stopped in 2018, it was worth $10. It dropped 80%. 80%. And the highest it ever reached when I was CEO of Nissan was $15. We dropped from $15 to $10 because the situation was not very good in 2017-2018. I am talking about the general economic situation, not our business. Now it is less than $2. So, what more do you want? Now, how do you stabilize it? You need to restore confidence. This means you need to bring in a general management for the company that people trust. How do they trust them? They need to come up with a reasonable plan that convinces them. They need to start achieving results that show they are serious, not just talk and go on television and make statements. Renault added something. Renault added something. Renault was controlling this alliance between Renault, Nissan, and Mitsubishi in 2018. The first car company in the world, 11 million cars we were producing and selling. Correct. Now, look at the situation Renault is in. The alliance's opportunity is gone. The alliance is no longer cooperating with each other, even though they told us in 2018, when I stopped, that we would continue this alliance. They did not continue anything. It all turned into a matter of manipulation. Secondly, the company was selling 4 million cars in 2018. Now it reaches 2.3 million. Not only did they reach 2.3 million, but they are proud that they are selling 2.3 million with a small profit. So, these companies, you need to restore confidence, and confidence is restored when there is leadership that understands what it is doing, not just that, and is doing things that prove to the market that this is not just talk, but action and results. Mr. Ghosn, do you think that the time is right today in the Middle East, and perhaps in Lebanon specifically, for the application of the monthly car subscription model that we see in America and Europe, and even there are experiments in the Gulf? In Lebanon, I don't think so because, as you know, the banking system in Lebanon is completely empty. You cannot implement this system. You need to have banks here. But as you know, no one trusts the banks because there was a financial crisis after it was not resolved. In the Middle East in general, and in the Gulf, of course, because I lived in America and saw it, and then I supervised the American market. Leasing is very important because leasing allows you to choose the car you want, keep it for as long as you want, and not worry about selling it. They take care of selling it, and you pay a monthly fee. You know how much the monthly fee is. So, you don't bother yourself. Yes, it's a very good deal for the consumer who doesn't want to worry too much about their car. They choose the car they want, they keep it for as long as they want, and the day they want to return it, they return it. Then the company takes care of selling it. It's a very good system, very efficient in America. It's very popular, and I think in the Middle East, there is no objection to this developing. But for this to develop, you need a financial system to support it. You see, people trust the financial system, and the financial system provides returns in a way that one does not think they are paying for the car much more if they are renting it than if they are buying it. Mr. Ghosn, today artificial intelligence is the obsession of all humanity, and perhaps specifically it is the obsession of employees who fear for their jobs and their livelihood. Perhaps, personally, do you think that self-driving, and also here in the matter of cars, self-driving is still in its early stages, but perhaps in the next decade, do you see artificial intelligence supporting the issue of self-driving to become more efficient and much better than what we see today? Yes, there is no doubt. I am convinced that what is called robotaxis, self-driving in cars, and especially for everything related to goods transportation, meaning light commercial vehicles and trucks, is very important, very important, and will develop. And technological development is not just artificial intelligence, but also the development of chips and mini-computers. They have become more powerful, cheaper, and smaller. All of this will help robotaxis. Let me tell you why it is important. Robotaxis are important. You know that employment in America, the first job for men in America is a truck driver, who drives trucks. The first job. There are more than 2.5 million truck drivers in America. Correct. And logistics in America has, how can I say, a limit because you cannot find a truck driver. You don't find a truck, you find trucks as much as you want, you don't find a truck driver. So, when you start implementing robotaxis, robotaxis mean that the truck drives itself on the highway. Honestly, not that you are afraid of it, no, honestly, because it's computer-driven, remote-controlled, everything is studied. I believe the future will be here, robotaxis, robotaxis, especially in transportation of goods, meaning last-mile delivery, as you know, people are buying from Amazon and buying. So, all of this is very important. Now, taxis too, there are tentative driverless taxis today in America. There are cities where they are trying this system. You call on your phone, and a taxi is sent to you. There is no driver. You go from one area to another. So, technology will develop. The need for no one to drive the car will also develop. Now, it doesn't mean that you cannot drive the car if you want to drive it. You can drive it. You can put it on automatic, you can put it on manual drive. The most important thing is that the car, with this technology that is happening, has become a partner for you. It gives you information, guides you, drives for you, goes and gets something. So, this technology that is being put in cars is making cars help you in your life and do what you want. It's not an object that you operate as you wish, but you must always monitor it. I believe in this technology, and I believe that the time that is happening now and the development that we are seeing will be very successful in the next few years. Perhaps we need to reduce the accident rate because people today still have this fear that someone is driving it and there is no one actually driving it. It's like self-driving is still creating some fear among people. You touched on the issue of drivers in America, which is very important because in America, when they travel by trucks, they move from state to state. First, they have very high expenses, their fuel costs. So, if we switch to self-driving and electric cars or trucks, this could lead to a reduction in costs for goods and other things. Of course. Now, pay attention. People think that if you put a computer to drive the car, it is more dangerous than a man driving a car. This is wrong. This is wrong because, as you know, if you examine the accidents that happen in cars, correct, technological problems, perhaps 400 or 5% of accidents. 95% are human. Correct. He falls asleep, or he is texting, or he is not paying attention, or he is drunk. This is how accidents happen. This computer does not get drunk, does not fall asleep, does not... You are eliminating 90% of the reasons for an accident. So, one should be comfortable. Now, as you know, you see airplanes today. The pilot who flies the plane does not drive the plane. He sits and watches it. But no one gets on a plane without a pilot, right? So, there is still a complex, psychologically, that no, if there is a person inside. So, I believe in it. This complex will take some time to overcome. But it doesn't mean that technology will not develop and allow you to do what you want. Now, is it possible, for example, if you prefer a taxi with someone in the taxi, you say, "No, I want Uber with a person." You pay a premium for it, and Uber will become without a driver. You save money. And I tell you, it will be safer when the technology is present. Of course, if the technology is not present, we will crash. But if the technology is present, it will be safer and cheaper. Mr. Ghosn, are you afraid for humanity from artificial intelligence? No, no, what is this talk? There are many theories that say yes, artificial intelligence means no more jobs for humans. I don't believe in these things. I don't believe in these things because technological development means that humans will create something stronger than them. I don't think so because, first, we are not that intelligent to create something stronger than us. Second, what is creating artificial intelligence is making your life easier today. You saw how, for example, what are the domains that people use the most today? If you go to ChatGPT, or you go to Grok for, or you see one of them, what do they use it for the most? They use it for medical needs. Today, I have a fever, etc. You go to ChatGPT. You don't call the doctor and bother him and take an appointment. You go to ChatGPT, you give it your name, and it tells you the answer. It's making my life easier. And the doctor, instead of answering very simple things, is now focusing on more important things. So, you are freeing up a human being, or a specialist, to do something much more important, with added value, and you are relieving him of all the easy things. Yes, people are using it, and also for legal consultations. And I, for example, have a problem, I want to know my rights. I go to ChatGPT, I ask a question, it gives you the answer. If you are in America, or Lebanon, or Saudi Arabia, or whatever, it gives you the answer. You cannot go and request an appointment with a lawyer and sit with him, and he tells you from top to bottom what will happen. So, it has started to free you from all these easy things that you no longer need to pay money for, or wait. It gives you an answer immediately. So, the life of this coming generation will be much easier. Harder in one way, but much easier in another way. I don't think there will be a substitution. There will be facilitation and empowerment for human beings thanks to artificial intelligence. Mr. Ghosn, the last question in the artificial intelligence and electric cars section, and it is a very important question. Do you think that oil-producing countries, from the far north to the far south, have countries that depend on oil revenues by about 95% to fund their economy? Do you think these countries will give up these revenues so simply for the sake of humanity and for the health of planet Earth? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. They will not be an obstacle, nor will they facilitate, nor will they be an obstacle. They will be in the middle. Let me tell you why? Because this transformation will take a lot of time. And as you know, all oil-producing countries, the largest oil-producing countries, understand that oil will not sustain them forever. In 50 or 100 years, they are starting to diversify. They are creating precious metals, they are creating industries, they are creating trade, they are creating tourism, they are creating this and that. And this is something, but I don't think they will be an obstacle, nor do I think they will facilitate it. But they will benefit from the grace period they have ahead of them to diversify their economy. And this is very important. I see it in all countries, for example, the Gulf, all Gulf countries, they are all undergoing privatization. We will move to the global economy section. Perhaps today we are living in a time of record interest rates. We are talking about between 4.5% and 5%, and 5% in the United States. And of course, all countries in the world are following the Federal Reserve's approach to monetary policy because their currencies are ultimately linked to the dollar. Yes, I will mention a quote from the book "The Only Game in Town" by the economist Mohamed El-Erian, who says specifically, "If central bank monetary policies are not followed by radical economic reforms, we risk bequeathing to our children a distorted economy, full of inequality and few opportunities, which leaves a destructive impact on our future." How do you see the impact of monetary policies on innovation and long-term investment, and do you share El-Erian's concern? Yes, I agree with El-Erian. What he is saying is correct, correct. But I think the problem is not with the central bank and interest rates. This is not the problem. Now, you are talking about Jerome Powell and what is happening in America. As you know, recently, unemployment in America has come out very low. He will be forced, he will be forced to lower interest rates. How much will he lower them? How long will it take? This is another matter. The problem is not here. Where is the problem? The problem is that countries today, and the largest countries, cannot bear their debt anymore. They cannot bear this debt. Not just America, but France, England, etc. These countries are indebted in a way that they can no longer bear this debt. Not only are they indebted, but they also have budget deficits. So, every year they are increasing their debt. Instead of repaying the debt, they are increasing their debt. And this is a big problem. Why is it a big problem? Because, as you know, since they need to borrow and are borrowing more and more, this is putting pressure on interest rates to rise. Correct. The IMF. Correct. This is the first thing. Second, not only that, but then, how do you get rid of this debt? You have $34 trillion in debt in America. For example, France has 3.4-4 trillion euros in debt. Correct. And you have a budget deficit. So, my friend, how will they get out of this? How will they get out of this? People think, "Well, how will they get out of this?" They will get out of this through devaluation of the currency. Correct. Devaluation of the currency, or taxation. They cannot increase taxation because, for example, France already has taxation of the highest in the world. They cannot continue. And the Americans, as you saw, President Trump is lowering taxes. So, people are afraid that the currency will deteriorate. So, here is the problem. And this is a danger. Because if the currency deteriorates, people are fleeing the currency. Now, you saw why the price of gold is rising. First, they said there was a war in Ukraine, then there was a war in Israel and Lebanon, etc. But the dollar is falling, not because the dollar is falling. The dollar is falling because people are afraid that one day they will have to get rid of this debt. They will have to reduce their holdings. They will reduce their spending, or increase taxes. They will have to reduce it. The currency will collapse. So, everyone is afraid. That's why they are buying this. This is what is making gold and commodities stronger on one hand, or the market is buying them, or it is making cryptocurrency stronger on the other hand. This is the danger. And the day the state comes up with a plan that we can believe in, that it will reduce this debt and how can I say, solve the budget issue, the currency will strengthen again. Because the best thing for the currency is that today there is this doubt that makes people afraid, and interest rates are high, and you cannot lower them much. And if you lower them too much, the currency will fall because the fear is that you will let the currency deteriorate to get rid of your debt. Now, $34 trillion. If the dollar loses 30% of its value, it means you are losing $10 trillion in debt. Ah, much more than increasing taxes. So, here is the problem. And this is a danger for the coming generation. Mr. Ghosn, we will comment briefly on this issue as well. Trump's pressure on Jerome Powell is very great. And contrary to what people think, the Federal Reserve in the United States, of course, is a completely independent authority from the government. Do you think that despite the decline in growth for two consecutive quarters, despite the fact that we have indeed succeeded somewhat in controlling inflation, do you think that Jerome Powell is wrong to continue tightening monetary policy? Yes, well, first, Jerome Powell has data and information that I don't have. And also, don't forget, he doesn't decide alone. He has about eight or nine governors who vote with him. You see. And I don't know what he has ahead of him that is making him take this policy. Now, the president, the president has the right to give his opinion that, no, I believe that interest rates are too high. He has the right to do so. But the independence is still there. It is there. But it doesn't mean that he will do it. So, there is a balance of power between the two. But I believe that the president has the right to give his opinion that interest rates are too high, or they are too low. He has the right to say that. That person is responsible for leading the central bank, but he doesn't decide alone. He has about eight or nine people who decide with him. I cannot give you my opinion because I don't have the data that he has. So, one sits and relies on the other without knowing what the situation is. So, I cannot give you my opinion. Let's move on to precious metals. Silver's gains have exceeded 26% since the beginning of the year, even though we know that silver is linked to industrial activity. Yes, but despite the decline in industrial activity, we have seen significant gains for silver. How do you explain this strong performance, and what is your outlook for precious metals like silver and gold? People are afraid. They are not. You are talking about silver. I am talking to you about gold too. Don't forget, gold. You are talking about precious stones. You are talking about everything. Everything is increasing in price. Why is its price increasing? Because there is fear. There is a flight from the currency. Okay. Today, if I have a choice, to live, I live on dollars to buy and rent and so on. But if I want to save money for the future, then I look at what is happening. I am afraid that if I keep dollars with me, I don't know what the dollar will be worth in five years, or what the euro will be worth. Because I see how these countries are dealing with their debt and their budget deficits. I go to something that everyone has confidence in, for example, gold is stronger, or silver is stronger, or cryptocurrency. Everyone has their opinion. Or companies, so stocks in well-known companies like Apple and Nvidia, etc., are flying. Why are they flying? Because if you have savings, you don't keep them in currency because, you know, between a company like Apple, or Nvidia, or an indebted country, I still prefer companies. But they have become overvalued. Nvidia, yes. Be careful, everything is overvalued. You are not choosing what is undervalued. You are choosing what is least overvalued compared to others. Correct. So, do you think it is possible to see the level of $4,000 for an ounce of gold before the end of the year? In my opinion, yes. Now, when, I don't know. But it will go above $4,000. Of course. Because the problem has not been solved. So, everyone looks and says, "Well, my dear, first, the American economy is the most important economy in the world." Correct. So, how do you get rid of your debt of $34 trillion, and with the budget deficit, you will add two or three trillion to it? So, how will this issue be resolved? How will it be resolved? As long as this is happening, I believe that many people will flee to derivative products, and everyone has their opinion. Now, young people go to cryptocurrency. People who are older are used to gold and silver. But all of this is because they are not confident that it will end peacefully. We have a fundamental question about cryptocurrency, but it will be after this question. Specifically, today we are living in a time of trade war on enemies and allies. Trump himself also said recently, even on the issue of debt, that he will solve the debt crisis through cryptocurrencies. And this, in numbers, this talk is illogical. The market capitalization of cryptocurrencies does not exceed $3.9 trillion. The US debt, as you mentioned, is close to $35 trillion. So, there is a huge gap. But his direction towards trade war on Europeans, Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, on everyone, even on Arab countries. Mr. Ghosn, how will this issue affect the automotive industry specifically? The automotive industry has been affected by tariffs. Tariffs have an impact because many companies in the automotive industry have their supply chains, and their supply chains are global. So, for example, if I am assembling a car in Mexico, I am getting parts from Canada, and I am getting parts from America, from the United States, and I am getting parts from Brazil. Now, if it starts, because there was free trade, now they are starting here 15%, here 20%, here 30%. I have to recalculate what is profitable for me to continue making these parts in these countries. Correct. What will happen? Now, these companies are thinking, they are re-examining their supply chains to see, according to the tariffs that are decided, not the tariffs that are being said, as you know, there is what is said and what is decided. You have to wait to see what is decided, and based on what is decided, to see where your interest lies in getting these parts and where your interest lies in assembling cars. Now, for example, the Japanese have all decided to start making more cars, assembling more cars in America, after the tariffs. So, what are they doing? They are closing factories. Yes, in Japan. And they are opening factories in America. And the American president, this is what he wants. He told them, "America First." Okay. You want to sell in America, you want to manufacture in America. So, the Japanese have already started. Nissan has a huge factory in America, right? Yes. Now, Nissan had, it had, it was not full. Now they are filling it. They are filling it. They are closing factories in Japan, as you know. They announced they will close the Obama plant in Japan, one of our traditional Nissan plants. But this was evident for a long time. One had to know how to smell the market, know how to smell what it is, and start preparing for it. So, for example, yes, and this is very important in management. Let me tell you about management. Nissan, for example, for 2025, now they have come up with a plan. They want to close seven factories and lay off 21,000 employees. Correct. They are talking about overcapacity. So, this overcapacity does not happen overnight. This overcapacity happens little by little, year after year. So, you have been sleeping for seven years, doing nothing. You should have started adjusting your capacity from the beginning, year by year, and not hiring people unnecessarily. Then this crisis would not have happened. You are creating a crisis because you have not done your job for seven years. This is the truth. This is the problem that is happening. This is the drama that is happening in companies: people who are not doing their jobs, their work does not show. But when the company gets into trouble, they bring someone else, and he is forced to do much more than what should have been done because they did not do their job. You see, this is the problem that is happening. This turnaround situation they talk about, all of this is prepared by the previous management that is not working. The last question regarding assets and the global economy. You have mentioned cryptocurrency twice, and I was waiting for us to reach this question. First, what is your opinion on Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, which we call altcoins, today as assets? Yes, I believe that now, as you know, cryptocurrencies have two roles. One role is that you have payments. Correct. You transmit value to someone you want to do it for. So, today you can pay someone with Bitcoin. This is the first thing. The second role is that you have savings that you want to keep for the future. Correct. So, this Bitcoin is an instrument of payment and an instrument of savings. So, let's look at Bitcoin clearly. Instrument of payment? Yes. It is much easier to pay with Bitcoin. It takes seconds and almost zero fees. There is no question. Now, you live, I don't know, in Dubai, in Saudi Arabia, you want to make a transfer, let's say $5,000 to France, if you have, or you have a friend you want to send $5,000 to. They will ask you where you got the money from, how you earned it, who you want to send it to, what you want it for, etc. A long and tedious investigation for trivial amounts. What do you send him? Bitcoin. It takes him a few seconds. No one takes his Bitcoin. He goes and sells it and deals with it. So, Bitcoin today is superior in cryptocurrency, superior to the banking system. The banking system is destroying itself with the issue of compliance. And they tell us that we want to fight terrorism. We want to fight terrorism. My friend, how many terrorists are there in the world? Correct. We are 8 billion people on planet Earth. How many terrorists are there? 10 million. 10 million. So, you burn the debt of 7 billion 999 million people to fight a terrorist? What is this talk? You see, this has become a control. I believe it is a strategy because you are breaking the banking system and you are pushing people to go to the Bitcoin system because it is much easier for them. Decentralized, first. Second, if you want to put a portion of your profits or your savings. Well, Bitcoin has become the alternative. You don't have to put everything in Bitcoin. You say, "My God, maybe it won't go up." Every day, someone tells you Bitcoin will reach $200,000, $300,000, $500,000. You don't know if it will reach it or not. But you keep saying, "Well, maybe it will reach $200,000, $300,000. Let's put 1%, 2%, 3% of what we have in Bitcoin." And this is what you are telling me, Bitcoin as part of diversification. Of course. Of course. So, you cannot say that cryptocurrency is not important. It will be important and it is becoming important because the weakness that exists today is strengthening Bitcoin. Have you tried to distance your investments from cryptocurrencies on the basis that they are high-risk assets? So, you preferred things like gold and silver, which are perhaps safer assets? Yes, as you know, cryptocurrency, for our generation, I am not saying that our generation has not entered cryptocurrency, but we are not good at it. You see, we are more accustomed to gold and silver. But this is a new generation. I see all of them. All of them. So, this generation is accustomed to Bitcoin. So, I believe that Bitcoin, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies will remain.

We are going out because this next generation is accustomed to it, and not for anything easy. It's very effective. Gold, did you see? Yes. So, if you were at the head of a major company today, would you keep some Bitcoin? Yes, of course. Yes, of course. If I were at the head of a large company today, for example, when I left Nissan in 2018, we had 20 billion dollars in cash. Correct. All the time, the Chief Financial Officer would come up with a plan: what do we do with 20 billion? Ah, 20 billion. Put them in the bank. You want to buy this, and you want to do that. It's not an investment. Investments are on the side. Investments for the company are on the side. Without a doubt, I would have directed him to buy some cryptocurrency. Of course, because you don't know where cryptocurrency is going. You can't say, you can't say cryptocurrency won't work. No one can say that. But if cryptocurrency works, and you bought cryptocurrency, you'll catch up. Later, it will cost you a lot. Of course. Let's move to the last paragraph, or rather, the second to last. Between the lines, and I will quote some of what you mentioned in this book, "Together Forever." "Ensemble Toujours" in French as well. This book was primarily published in French. Carlos Ghosn, Mr. Ghosn, in this book specifically, you say, "I do not visit politicians, nor do I belong to any ruling institution or party." In your opinion, if Carlos Ghosn belonged to a political institution or a ruling institution, perhaps he would have avoided what happened to him in Japan. This is certain, it wouldn't have happened like that. But I wouldn't have reached Japan. I wouldn't have become the head of a company. I wouldn't have become the head. I wouldn't have been able to do what I did. That's right. I would have been, perhaps, an employee somewhere, or a manager of something, but I wouldn't have done what I did. So, political influence doesn't help in reaching positions? No, it helps in reaching positions related to politics. For example, you can't be the governor of a state bank if you don't have connections with politicians. Correct. Now, you need to have competence, and you need to have it, but you also need to have connections with politicians. In companies, any country, any contribution to them, these are usually managed. They don't appoint you as president if they have a choice between someone they know and have a relationship with, and someone they don't know. They won't choose him. Now, you tell me, but the French state also had 15% shares in Renault. How did they appoint you as the head of Renault? They appointed me as the head of Renault not because they liked me. They appointed me as the head of Renault because, as successful as Nissan was, when 2005 came, and the head of Renault was to retire, I told him, I told him, "I want to stay at Nissan. If you want, choose someone else to head Renault." He told me, "No, because if we choose someone else to head Renault, given how strong your reputation has become, Renault will seem like a subsidiary of Nissan, and they didn't want that." That's why they asked me, and they agreed with me to head both companies. And I was the first person to head Renault. The French state wasn't very happy about that. You see? It wasn't because I was... I mean, the person before me, Louis Schweitzer, was the Secretary-General of the French Prime Minister. Correct. The one before him was also involved with the French state. So, all those before me had connections with the French state. I was the first one to reach it without having a connection with the French state. But as you know, after 2018, the scenario where they appointed me, who did they appoint? French President Macron appointed Louis Schweitzer. He didn't impose him on the board. The board of Renault. Louis Schweitzer advised you to take French citizenship so you could head Renault. Yes, yes. Okay. Let's move to the second question. Also, here it was mentioned in the book "Together Forever." The dismissal of 21,000 employees. Professor Carlos Ghosn, as I recall, this number represented about 14% of your workforce. There were 140,000 employees at Nissan, so approximately 14% of the workforce. This decision makes us ask a question: does someone in a position or at the head of a company have to make inhumane decisions for the overall financial good of the company? Yes. Look, you're right. First, there's no one who dismisses people without suffering from the decision. It's a difficult decision. Correct. Correct. But what was my mission? My mission was to refocus the company. Correct. Now, I could have said no. I know that if I want to refocus Nissan, I have to cut, close factories, and readjust the technological system, etc. My humanity wouldn't allow me to do that. I don't want that answer. That would be acceptable. But when I took on this responsibility, what did I think? If I didn't take it, not 21,000 people would lose their jobs, but 140,000 would lose their jobs. I thought about the 120,000 who had to stay in the company. The company. And all those who would come later. As you know, when I stopped at Nissan, it reached 360,000 employees. Correct. So, none of this would have happened if you hadn't started from the beginning to correct the mistake made before you. And what is the mistake? It's not about letting people go to save their salaries and put them in profits. That doesn't work. You need to do what's called resource reallocation. You need to move money from where it's not being spent and not benefiting anything, and put it where it allows the company to develop. You put it in products, you put it in technology, you put it in profits, you put it in things that show that the company is... So, people looked and said, "How could you have the heart to let go of 21,000 people?" Okay, a valid question. I don't have the heart to let go of 21,000 people, but I don't have the heart to let 140,000 people go home without someone stopping and helping them to fix their company. But especially the last paragraph, Lebanon, a devastating economic crisis since late 2019. The financial deficit exceeds 67 billion dollars. So, let's assume that you were tasked, this was the demand of the Lebanese people from the moment you arrived in Lebanon. If you were tasked with managing this country, what would be the quick wins you might resort to? First, in the first year, perhaps. Yes. Look, first, no company reaches a deficit of 67 billion dollars. I mean, it would have closed much earlier, or all the management would have flown away much earlier before reaching 67. No country reaches that state. Let's stick to countries. Now, I don't think I'm thinking that this issue is easy at all. But if you ask me what are the plans that would allow you to return the country to its feet, I think the first thing that needs to be done now. Let's talk theoretically, and then we'll talk practically. First, you need to restore confidence that these people who are coming will prioritize the economy. Correct. If they think the priority is not the economy, no one will have confidence. No one will put their money in a country where the priorities of the ruling people are unknown. This is first. Second, I think Lebanon's priority today is not the economy. Lebanon's priority, as you know, is security, sovereignty, etc. So, today is not the time for people like me. It's for people who understand security, understand sovereignty, understand the judiciary, and things like that. And these people are in charge. I'm not saying they are not important. The economy has become something else. The economy will come later. The economy will come later, because, as you know, the only thing that unites all Lebanese people, from all sects, from all beliefs, whatever you want, is prosperity. Prosperity, employment, good salary, electricity, good logistics. These are what unite all the people together. And this time will come. Now, what are the plans that lead to them? Now, people talk to you, "You need to make an agreement with the IMF." Do you agree? We need the IMF. I don't think so. But why must it be done? It must be done because the IMF organizes the Lebanese state. I mean, we are going to the IMF to organize us, not because we are living... 3 billion dollars. You can easily collect 3 billion dollars from all the Lebanese living abroad. Correct. And those who are interested to say, "Okay, if we have a team in Lebanon, we'll fund it." No, we're not coming back. Why? Because it's good business. Pay attention. It's not that we're coming back emotionally. Of course. Not everything on the ground in Lebanon, everything on the ground. Prices are on the ground, lands are on the ground, companies are on the ground. Everything is on the ground. So, if you believe that someone will come and fix the country, let me buy now, because later it will be much more expensive, and I will have a profit. Of course. Of course. And then you have all these institutions under state control. Correct. These institutions under state control, we are talking about Casino du Liban, Middle East Airlines, and... the state, or the central bank. Something like Middle East Airlines and state lands. The Lebanese state owns 20% of the lands. 20% of the lands of Lebanon are in the hands of the state. And you have the port, the port, the port, the airport, and the railway that doesn't exist. Everything. Correct. These are for the state. Don't you think that if someone came and took them over, I'm not saying privatization, because today prices are on the ground, today it's theft. Today, if you do privatization in Lebanon, it's theft. The state is stealing. The Lebanese people are being stolen from. No, let private people do their jobs. The state owns these, but it doesn't interfere. It doesn't interfere or appoint anyone. Let the business run. Raise the level of these companies. First, they will earn profit. And this alone will lift the country. This alone will lift it. So, it doesn't need... But pay attention, strategically. Don't forget, strategically. 5% execution, 95% nothing happens on its own. Is there hope for the deposits of the Lebanese to be returned? I remember. Yes, but you need to be patient. The last two questions. Mr. Ghosn, are there any developments regarding the lawsuit you filed in Lebanon against Nissan? No, there's nothing new, unfortunately. Because, as you know, the judiciary in Lebanon is a bit slow because the appointments haven't been made. There are many. But hopefully, with this new era, things will be faster. And I believe that the new justice that the government is establishing will greatly help the Lebanese to get their rights back. What drove you to turn to winemaking specifically, and for a long time? No, I did that a long time ago for recreation. More so because you found that your company specifically, you can't name it, but even in winemaking, you succeeded in making it the first in Lebanon as well. No, not exactly. Look, because first, I had partners who loved wine and understood wine. And then, from the beginning, we said we don't want to make wine just like that. We wanted to make high-quality wine. We wanted to be a small winery, high-quality, to raise the level of wine in Lebanon, or to help raise the level of wine. And we succeeded. It took more than 15 years, but today I am very proud when people drink the wine and say it's excellent. One last question, allow me. The documentary that was released on Netflix titled "Fugitive." As a viewer, I saw a lot of bias against Carlos Ghosn, and the subject was personal defamation, not professional. Why did you refuse to participate in this documentary despite the request? Because, first, I didn't believe in the team that was going to make this film. This is a French team. You see? And as you know, the French helped the Japanese a lot in a character assassination campaign. They were 100% involved without realizing what this whole issue was about, and who would be the biggest victim, and who turned out to be the biggest victim. I want to say I'm the biggest, but Renault turned out to be the biggest because Renault lost Nissan and lost Mitsubishi and went backward. While in 2018, it controlled a global company. But as you know, a segment of the French are very arrogant. That is, they think that from the beginning, it's character assassination. This is the head of the company, and he thinks he's something, and he had a party in Paris, etc., and it got to their heads, and they believed it and went with it. So, when this team came, Netflix, I saw it was a French team, and with this team, I told him that no, I will not work with you because you will use me to strengthen the attack against me. As long as I justified it, tell them what you want. Now, as you know, there isn't just this film. There's another film from Apple TV, a film from NBC made by the Saudi company. All of this, but pay attention, all of this is not fiction. All of these are considered documentaries. Now, in some places, there is fiction. Yes, it's possible there's fiction. Several people contacted me. They want to make a film about me, a new book. We might also see a new book. Certainly, but not now. Let's tell the whole story together. For example, you understand. All the plots, the lies, and the denial that happened. Of course. There will be a very long book, but based on facts, based on witnesses. Mr. Ghosn, your imprint cannot be distorted in the automotive world, specifically. The conversation can go on for a long time. Thank you very much for this interview. All the best. [Applause]